October 27, 2025 • 31 mins
Lisa is a retired Army veteran who served 21.5 years in the Military Police Corps, with deployments in peacekeeping missions and in support of Operation Enduring Freedom.
Lisa is the author of In and Out of Uniform, a memoir published in 2019 that shares the highs and lows of her military career, including experiences with MST, assault, suicide, mTBI, and the resilience that carried her through.
She spoke out to break the silence many still carry, knowing the toll unspoken trauma can take. Lisa also runs a small paint party business, “Create With Lisee,” and is passionate about becoming a guest speaker to advocate for those who feel they can’t speak for themselves.
In This Episode
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-trauma-therapist--5739761/support.
You can learn more about what I do here:
The Trauma Therapist Newsletter: celebrates the people and voices in the mental health profession. And it's free! Check it out here: https://bit.ly/4jGBeSa
———
If you’d like to support The Trauma Therapist Podcast and the work I do you can do that here with a monthly donation of $5, $7, or $10: Donate to The Trauma Therapist Podcast.
Click here to join my email list and receive podcast updates and other news.
Thank you to our Sponsors:
Incogni - Use code [traumatherapist] and get 60% off annual plans: https://incogni.com/traumatherapist
Jane App - use code GUY1MO at https://jane.app/book_a_demo
Journey Clinical - visit https://join.journeyclinical/trauma for 1 month off your membership
Therapy Wisdom - https://therapywisdom.com/jan/
Lisa is the author of In and Out of Uniform, a memoir published in 2019 that shares the highs and lows of her military career, including experiences with MST, assault, suicide, mTBI, and the resilience that carried her through.
She spoke out to break the silence many still carry, knowing the toll unspoken trauma can take. Lisa also runs a small paint party business, “Create With Lisee,” and is passionate about becoming a guest speaker to advocate for those who feel they can’t speak for themselves.
In This Episode
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-trauma-therapist--5739761/support.
You can learn more about what I do here:
The Trauma Therapist Newsletter: celebrates the people and voices in the mental health profession. And it's free! Check it out here: https://bit.ly/4jGBeSa
———
If you’d like to support The Trauma Therapist Podcast and the work I do you can do that here with a monthly donation of $5, $7, or $10: Donate to The Trauma Therapist Podcast.
Click here to join my email list and receive podcast updates and other news.
Thank you to our Sponsors:
Incogni - Use code [traumatherapist] and get 60% off annual plans: https://incogni.com/traumatherapist
Jane App - use code GUY1MO at https://jane.app/book_a_demo
Journey Clinical - visit https://join.journeyclinical/trauma for 1 month off your membership
Therapy Wisdom - https://therapywisdom.com/jan/
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to the Trauma Therivers podcast. My name is Guimingferson
and I interview incredible people who share the story of
how trauma has shaped their lives. And a big thank
you for sponsoring today's episode goes to my guest and
our sponsors. So five four, three, two and one O
(00:23):
our folks, welcome back to the podcast. Very excited to
have my guests today. Lisa Kirk Lisa welcome. You are welcome. So.
Lisa is a retired Army veteran who served twenty one
and a half years in the Military Police Corps with
deployments and peacekeeping machines and in support of Operation Enduring Freedom.
She's the author of In and Out of Uniform, and
(00:45):
memoir published in twenty nineteen that shares the highs and
lows of her military career, including experiences with mst OR
Military Sexual Assault Assault Suicide mTBI and the resilience that
carried her through. She spoke out to break the silence
many still carry, knowing the toll unspoken trauma can take.
(01:06):
She also earned the small paint party business create with
Lizze and his passionate about becoming a guest speaker to
advocate for those who feel they cannot speak for themselves. Lisa, obviously,
just a little bit about you. But before we dive
in here, share with the listeners where you're from originally
and where you are currently.
Speaker 2 (01:35):
Hello. I'm originally from Pennsylvania, just Okay, near Philadelphia, near
Valley Forge is where The Blob. Oh, my god, where
the Blob was filmed. It was a movie back in
the sixties. Yeah. That was my first job when I
was fifteen years old. Yeah, I was a candy striper. Yeah.
(01:58):
And then I joined the army I was twenty one,
and then I retired in Missouri. I went, I was
all throughout this global country and world with the journey
to serve my country. And now I reside here and
played in Missouri at south of Fortleanard, big Army base,
(02:19):
and I reside with my husband and my three years.
Speaker 1 (02:22):
I'll say this, I mean, well, talk us through initially
your desire to get into the service, and then we'll
talk about how everything unfolded for you. If that's okay.
Speaker 2 (02:46):
Sure. My family is very patriotic. My dad's dad was
an infantry soldier in Normandy. My grandfather, my mom's dad,
was a Army military police in World War Two. He
actually was my inspiration to maintain a rank of master
(03:06):
sergeant because he was a master sergeant also in the
NPE Corps. And then we just had a lot of
family who were in the military, and I grew up
with my mom being an army brat with that fine
line of respect. I'm the middle child of five, and
I always was patriotic, and I believe that it was
(03:28):
my time to like serve and be that servant. And
I think it was great because I played sports and everything,
so physically it wasn't a problem. Mentally it wasn't a
problem because I was you know, I'm just me. I'm
who I am. I smile a lot, and I just
care a lot. I'm selfless service. So I thought this
job was for me. So I was determined to do
(03:49):
my job successfully. Well, you know, my first duty station,
it was expecting and expected, your away from your family.
I'm on the West side, I'm in Fort Lewis, Washington,
and I'm out with my friends and I live in
the barracks. And six months, six months, the brand new soldier,
(04:17):
brand new soldier. And this was in ninety six, some
way from my family, you know, and just trying to
find friends shift work as military please, And I go
out my to a club on post and I meet
some friends and stuff. And then I go back to
the barracks and I'm on the bottom bunk and my
(04:41):
roommate had to go to emergency room because she had
a migraine, so she left the door and locked, and
I didn't think anything would be a problem. So I
woke up with the smell of I can't stand the
smell of bourbon and Copenhagen and some stale cologne, and
(05:03):
it was it was horrible. I mean, I can share
some stories because just just just because sensitize a lot
of the things I went through.
Speaker 1 (05:12):
Whatever you come to it really expecting you to come
on here and give us all the details. That's that's
share whatever you're comfortable with, of course.
Speaker 2 (05:21):
Okay, So we were.
Speaker 1 (05:25):
You alone in the barracks at this.
Speaker 2 (05:27):
Point, Okay, I was. I was the only one in
the room because my roommate, who lived on the top buck,
slept on the top buck. She would went to the
emergency room and she left the door locked because she
felt like it would be easier for her to get
(05:49):
in because she would be on medication. Or something. All
she had to do was just knock. I'm not saying
I'm not, but I would feel that you can leave
the door locked and nothing would happen. Excuse me, Oh okay,
I was two in a room. Yes, it's a barrack room.
It's I mean it's a barrack and then there's two
to a room. Uh yeah, usually uh sergeants, Uh, they
(06:13):
get their own room for themselves and stuff like that.
So I didn't know who this individual was who was
in my room. The next day, I went over, I
knocked on my uh neighbor's door, and I told him
what happened. And as I was walking out, because they
were going over for it was like a super Bowl
party or something like that, I saw the guy walk
(06:36):
down the hall and I started to like running after him,
and they tackled me, and they say it's not worth
it because I was gonna my my the ones who
who I was talking to, because I I wanted to
I wanted to kick his ass because he violated me,
you know, and it's it wasn't right, you know, so
(06:59):
uh then and receiving accommodation.
Speaker 1 (07:06):
Uh they tackled you or did you share this with
anyone else, Yes, sir, did you go up the chain
of command as it were?
Speaker 2 (07:16):
Okay, I shared it with I didn't know what to do.
I mean back then, I don't remember them expressing a
lot about the SHARP program, sexual harassment and right prevention.
I don't remember that at all as much as I
(07:37):
do now today. Even when I was a leader, I mean,
I was at crazy private.
Speaker 1 (07:42):
Uh.
Speaker 2 (07:43):
I kept to myself. I just did my I went
to the gym more and did my job, you know. Uh,
but I didn't really know a lot about who to
contact because that was just a private.
Speaker 1 (07:58):
So.
Speaker 2 (07:58):
Uh, the fire following Monday, I mean I was in
the front leaning rest position, like in a push up position, elevated,
and I had no idea why. And my leadership was like,
why didn't you contact us?
Speaker 1 (08:12):
You know?
Speaker 2 (08:13):
And because my friend's next door who i'd spoken to,
went to that super Bowl party and it was the
leader's super Bowl party, the platoons, and they said that
the new soldier you know, was assaulted or raped. And
because they didn't have a lot of detail about it
until I expressed it. So I had to go in
(08:34):
to see the commander in the next day and he's like, well,
what do you want us to do? As he's a
high headshed driver, nothing's going to happen to him. And
I just sat back. And then the following week he
was receiving an award, whether he was moving on to
a next staty station or getting out, and I had
to go shake his hand. Now, that in itself was
(08:56):
a story because I didn't want to shake his hand.
They maybe so, so it was. It was weird, like
a little voice system.
Speaker 1 (09:03):
How long ago was this?
Speaker 2 (09:08):
Okay?
Speaker 1 (09:09):
Okay? So how do you.
Speaker 2 (09:12):
This was in nineties ninety six, ninety seven.
Speaker 1 (09:16):
Personally, emotionally, mentally, how do you move on from this?
How are you handling this? Are you handling quote unquote
handling this? I?
Speaker 2 (09:28):
Oh, well, I internalized it a lot because I wanted
to just do my job and nobody was listening to me.
So it was hard to find trust in people, trust
in leadership, those who would know. And I wanted to
get out because after that, in ninety nine, my mentor
(09:51):
was shot and killed in Korea by a fellow and
p she she's an amazing she was an amazing woman.
She told me to get my head out of my
four point of contact many of times in my career,
and I wish she was there because she would have
done something and when the situation happened, But yeah, she
(10:13):
and I was to the point guy where I just
wanted to just get out of the military. But then
I met my husband ninety eight and we got married
and he had to get out from medical and he
was a desert storm veteran, and he said, will you
stay in? And I said, I'll stay in. So I
(10:34):
carried on twenty plus years. Of course, because I did
twenty one and a half, because I retired in twenty seventeen.
It was like a repetitive situation in a different way,
so cut, you know, like the not some I wasn't
(10:55):
raped again. I was assaulted when I was deployed, toxic leadership,
All this stuff happens to be part of this good
old boy system. And I reflect back, even though I
internalize it. It reflects back on the time when I
did get raped by this dude, this soldier who was
(11:16):
same uniform right as what we wear, what we put
on to protect our country, same unit. But he was
a driver for some way of higher ranking. So they
felt like they didn't want to do anything for him.
No one they.
Speaker 1 (11:31):
Stepped up for you. They were like, no, male men
stepped in and said, what the EPP is going on?
Speaker 2 (11:41):
Jesus, Nope, nope.
Speaker 1 (11:49):
No.
Speaker 2 (11:49):
I internalized it and drove on. And you know, then
then when I was in Afghanistan, I was sexually assaulted
by a friend of mine who I didn't think it
would ever happen out of all the people, and his
spouse was even in Afghanistan. It was crazy, and I
(12:13):
was just completely shocked, and I got I was to
the point where he was working for the general, so
within our unit we were like stretched out. We're convoy operations.
I work with the Navy Seals as a female marshal
every now and then, but there was a team that
worked for the General and he worked for them. So
(12:34):
even if I said something, it wouldn't matter to me
in my mind because.
Speaker 1 (12:41):
Unfortunately the answer to the question already But did you
were you able to seek any help, any kind of
quote unquote therapy or anything?
Speaker 2 (12:53):
Okay, yes, I yes, yes. And at first I thought
my security clearance was gonna like be taken from me
because I'm seeking mental health. But I knew that I
(13:14):
had to be taken care of because my journey in
the military like happened. Not fast, but I moved up
pretty quick in the military, like you know, deployed, and
then I put myself on drill star in orders, you know,
and then I become a first sergeant, you know, which
(13:34):
is like a master sergeant E eight in the army,
one step away from being a sire major. And this
is within fifteen years of my career. And I realized
that I have to take care of those underneath me,
and if I can't take care of myself, I can't
take care of those individuals. So I was getting into
my head because there's a lot of I was like,
(13:56):
what's wrong with me? You know? I thought that there
was something seriously wrong with me, because why is this
happening to me?
Speaker 1 (14:02):
You know?
Speaker 2 (14:02):
I stand up for myself. A lot of people think
I'm intimidating, but they mistaken like kindness for weakness. And
it breaks my heart knowing that stuff like this is
not did not only happen to me, but sharing a
lot of things that I did from writing my book,
a lot of other people, a lot of other women
(14:23):
and men who had spoken to.
Speaker 1 (14:26):
Well and out of uniform. So before we start talking
about the book and getting into the specifics, Lisa, how
I mean a lot of times people manage differently, people
(14:48):
get depressed, people become addicted, whatever they've shut down. What
were there symptoms going on for you as a result.
Speaker 2 (14:57):
Of all this, Yes, I stepped down a couple times
when I was a first sergeant, when I was in
charge of a company. I also when I was a
drill start and started seeking help because I was just
coming back from dealing with my deployment with a lot
(15:21):
of things I went through there, and then everything just
started coming into fruition because you internalized things right, and
then things just kind of like unpacked, like packing a
suitcase and explodes. Well, that's what was going on with me,
and I started having medical issues, not only headaches from
multiple concussions, you know in a blast. I started having
(15:44):
other like injuries and issues that I've never really happened
to me before because I'm really physically fit. So I
had to talk to somebody about that, and it didn't
stop me from still doing my job. I had to
realize that even today, I'm so selfless service I prefer
to take care of others and myself, but I almost
(16:05):
shut down. I'm my last duty station. A mist took
my life because I got to the same point where
nobody was listening to you.
Speaker 1 (16:11):
So admire and appreciate your service and for coming on
here and for writing the memoir. I can't imagine like
going through this. You you selflessly go in to serve
the country, you want to serve the country, and you
get freaking assaulted, and there's nowhere else to go. You
(16:34):
can't go, there's no outlet, there's no help. In a
sense that in and of itself is traumatizing. How did
you get to the point where you wanted to write
this memoir? Talk us through that?
Speaker 2 (16:56):
I went to the Winded Warrior Program in Fort Riley, Kansas.
That was my last duty station, and I had to
step down because I had suicide intentions. I didn't have
anybody my family was here, and nobody was listening to me.
(17:16):
I felt like I was just speaking out nobody.
Speaker 1 (17:24):
About Okay, So about eighteen.
Speaker 2 (17:27):
I had like two or three years left. Wow, okay
observed about eighteen years. It's it's it's really alone at
the top sometimes, especially if you're not like into like
things that other people are into, or you know, if
you don't know anybody, or if you don't have your
family around, it's very lonely, even though you have coping skills.
(17:49):
So I went to the Wounded Warrior Program. It's hard
for me to do that.
Speaker 1 (17:53):
The program within the army as.
Speaker 2 (17:55):
A higher ranking yeah, where they take people, They take
soldiers alike and they bring them into this facility and
they give them the treatment they need before they get out.
Speaker 1 (18:10):
Gerald vest a long time ago, who was one of
the founders of the Wounded Warrior Program. So I continue, please,
So you go there. What do you say to that?
Speaker 2 (18:21):
Yes, I go. I really didn't say much. I was
a hot mess because I was mad because I felt
like I failed. I failed myself and I failed my
family and I failed my country because I didn't finish
up what I wanted to do before I retired. I
felt like I stepped down multiple times, not just because
(18:41):
of my mental because the fact that there was like
nobody listening to me for what I believe in and
what I need to stand up for. You know what's
going on with me. So they said, we're going to
send you somewhere where you can get treatment for PTSD
and told a brain injury. So they sent me up
(19:04):
to Okay, I Yeah, I told my therapists about anything
I told I. I just gave them everything that I
was dealing with. Yes, there are days that I didn't
want to get up out of bed. They had to
come and get me. Uh many times I had to
go to a hospital. I had really bad migraines. I
(19:24):
pass out. I mean, I was just a hot mess.
I was there longer than I should have been because
everything just started falling out on me, like medical and mentally.
So they set me over for six month treatment over
to Minneapolis. I drove up there to Minneapolis the VA Hospital,
and I was impatient for six months. I was impatient
(19:47):
for like. It helped me out tremendously. I learned a
lot about the botox for the migraines. I did cognitive
process thinking with a therapist for twelve weeks. I caught
myself up up on the top floor in the fetal
position because a lot of stuff started popping out. Then
(20:08):
I said to come up and get me. I mean,
everything just starts popping out. And thank god I was
inpatient during that time, and I wasn't like out and
about so, I mean, because then you like what you
were talking about as far as you know, addictions and
stuff like that. I don't think i'd be addicted to anything,
you know, but I learned that like talking about everything,
(20:35):
and I had to write. If I get emotional, I apologize.
But just writing a lot about what happened to me
and how to read over it over and over again,
just read it in my head over and over again.
It helped me to sensitize a lot of the information,
so it kind of helps me heal and learn from it.
But I sat down as I was finishing up my
(20:57):
college degree. I started to write this book in support
of others because I realized that I'm not alone.
Speaker 1 (21:05):
At that point, hold on, I'm gonna sneeze a second.
Hold on, okay, pardon me. It was at that time
that you decided to write the book. You were still
in in treatment. What was the process? What did you
say to yourself? How did you realize you wanted to
write the book? And why?
Speaker 2 (21:30):
Many reasons UH for writing the book was knowing if
if I a senior non commissioned officer in the United
States Army Military Police Corps, of all, you know, I'm not.
I'm not saying anything about any other moss, but I'm
just saying ones who defend, protect, you know, and and
(21:54):
assist uh. Knowing that there are so many people out
there who do not speak up of what happened in
their past or what's going on in their life or
in their unit. They're gonna wind up having sane problems
as I'm having mentally they can't, They're gonna internalize it
(22:17):
and it's gonna affect them physically and emotionally. So I
wrote this book as a resource to let them know
that I went through it. But there's another there's the
other side of it. There's the other side. It's called
coping skills therapy. Don't be embarrassed to go to therapy,
(22:39):
you know, take your medications if you need to take it,
you know, and seek treatment.
Speaker 1 (22:44):
It seems to me, and correct me if I'm wrong,
that it's one thing to be able to or want
to speak up like you wanted to speak up. But
it feels it feels like from what you said there
way is that there was a sense of hopelessness. No
who do I go to, No one's gonna listen? Is
(23:08):
is that that's had? Have things changed in the military
at all? Are there is there more awareness? Are there
more resources? In place for for for women.
Speaker 2 (23:23):
Uh from what I was told, a guy, they have
a civilian who comes in like somebody from out of
the unit who comes in to investigate. Now, I mean
I don't know. To me, I understand, but I'm hoping
it would be somebody from a from one side of
the state to the other who doesn't know anybody, because
(23:45):
I mean, I came into a situation. Give me a second.
Like when I left Fort leonard Wood, Missouri to get
to my last duty station in Fort Riley, there was
a civilian who I knew, who was in the Military
Police Corp who retired moved down to Fort Riley to
be a liaison down there. And before I even went
(24:06):
down there to be a first sergeant, everybody knew about me.
I lasted five months. My star, a major down there,
knew me before I could even show my face. So
as long as that civilian is like somebody who nobody
knows within the.
Speaker 1 (24:24):
Unit, kind of a neutral party.
Speaker 2 (24:26):
Then I think it would be safe. Yeah yeah, because
it if not, then nobody speaks up.
Speaker 3 (24:33):
So your book is for whom I anybody can understand it,
because I think I try to make it like civilian
terminology so it's not like you know, military read There
may be some words in there, but there are no
(24:55):
names in there.
Speaker 2 (24:57):
You can kind of tell what's what. The book is
just short stories to share with those maybe who face
the challenges that I face, just to inspire me, to
inspire motivate them to never give up and speak up
because we all have a voice. People shut down, you know,
they don't want to speak, you know, and that's why
(25:18):
we I mean, I can tell you, like so many
friends who I lost based off of stuff that has
happened to me, has had they took their life or
they're addicted to something. So there's got to be a
way for them to understand that there's more than life.
(25:40):
Then just sometimes you just can't let go. And it's
hard for me to let go sometimes. But yes, just
a resource.
Speaker 1 (25:47):
After any obstacles in writing this book in terms of
like from the military, I mean.
Speaker 3 (25:55):
Is it is it.
Speaker 1 (25:58):
Easy in a sense to write a book like this,
like logic logistically, Oh, I'm going to write this and
obviously it has some You're making a pretty big statement
by saying that you're basically calling out, justifiably so the military.
Did you receive any backlash in a sense, I have.
Speaker 2 (26:21):
Not received backlash. Well, the only critique I received was
from an old well, my first first sergeant. He said
that I spelled McClellan wrong. It was a typo for McClellan, Alabama,
so it was spelled wrong. I think it was just
an edit typo from them. But I know I have
not received any backlash. I did receive a message from
(26:44):
a friend of mine who I was deployed with. She's
messaged me on Facebook and she's like, Hey, can I
talk to you? And I was like sure. She was
the spouse who was married to that sergeant who yasically
assaulted me out there, And she's like I thought it
would be him, and they're no longer together. She's remarried.
Speaker 1 (27:07):
Wow. Has this brought to you in contact with other
women or men who've experienced this?
Speaker 2 (27:18):
When I when I do, when I guest speak. I
went to Indianapolis and I think it was twenty twenty one,
and it was a Disabled Army veteran event and I
had ninety five women from all services from the Whack
all the way to Current and we're in a hangar
(27:40):
and the dav bought one hundred books and they gave
each lady a copy. So after I spoke, I had
a line all the way to the back of the hangar,
and some lady was I felt so bad. She was
doing a death by PowerPoint presentation. And each lady, each
lady had a story. I wish I was there. I
(28:02):
was flying, so I couldn't stick around long enough to
kind of, you know, sit down and listen to them.
But each lady who I signed their book, they all
had a story from whatever generation. Maybe. Yeah, it's pretty sad.
I mean, I don't know. We don't hear a lot
of that. And it's okay, you know, and I know,
(28:26):
I know as you.
Speaker 1 (28:28):
Sit here now and as we kind of wind down,
but how are you feeling about how are you doing
right now in your life?
Speaker 2 (28:40):
I'm okay, I'm okay. I'll be uh, I'll be fifty
one in September. I feel like I'm going through one
of those midlife crisis, you know. I'm looking into writing
another book, and it's one of those transition books. When
people get out, soldiers get out, they take off that uniform,
(29:02):
they get lost. So I'm trying to write a book about,
you know, ways that they don't have to be lost
wherever they go, and the resources out there. I have
my paint party business keeps me going. I'm taking care
of myself, getting myself checked out via surgeries and appointments,
(29:25):
you know, trying to trying to do things, you know,
keep meself going well.
Speaker 1 (29:31):
Lisa, I mean, I just admire you so much for
sitting here, for being here, for reaching out to me,
and for coming on here and sharing your story, and
for writing your book. I mean, I can't imagine how
that that was easy at all, especially within the whole
context of things. And I think it's you doing an
(29:52):
incredible service for speaking out and for helping other people
like yourself. How do people learn more about you and
reach out to you and get the book?
Speaker 2 (30:05):
Thank you guy? My my books on Amazon. Uh. If
you look up Lisa kirk k I R k uh
in and out of uniform. If you google my book title,
it might take you to some guys with no shirts on.
I didn't realize that when I did the title. Uh.
(30:26):
But yeah, it's a you can do. Uh. I think
it's a kindle or a just as it's it's not
a hardback, so it's a soft book. It's an easy read.
Speaker 3 (30:35):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (30:36):
My social media UH, if you're everyone to just get
in touch with me is if you go to w
w W dot create with l I s e e
dot com, create with licy dot com. Uh, it has
my contact information where you can get my book and
(30:58):
I wrote I wrote a song too as well.
Speaker 1 (31:00):
Awesome, awesome, awesome, all right, we'll have I'm putting that here.
We'll have that linked up here at the show notes
page at the Trauma Therapist podcast dot com, both your
book and your website. Ah, Lisa, appreciate you and Jesus
(31:23):
thank you for you for what you're doing. We'll be in.
Speaker 2 (31:25):
Touch, yes, sir, thank you.
Speaker 1 (31:27):
For take care of you too. By man h
Welcome to the Trauma Therivers podcast. My name is Guimingferson
and I interview incredible people who share the story of
how trauma has shaped their lives. And a big thank
you for sponsoring today's episode goes to my guest and
our sponsors. So five four, three, two and one O
(00:23):
our folks, welcome back to the podcast. Very excited to
have my guests today. Lisa Kirk Lisa welcome. You are welcome. So.
Lisa is a retired Army veteran who served twenty one
and a half years in the Military Police Corps with
deployments and peacekeeping machines and in support of Operation Enduring Freedom.
She's the author of In and Out of Uniform, and
(00:45):
memoir published in twenty nineteen that shares the highs and
lows of her military career, including experiences with mst OR
Military Sexual Assault Assault Suicide mTBI and the resilience that
carried her through. She spoke out to break the silence
many still carry, knowing the toll unspoken trauma can take.
(01:06):
She also earned the small paint party business create with
Lizze and his passionate about becoming a guest speaker to
advocate for those who feel they cannot speak for themselves. Lisa, obviously,
just a little bit about you. But before we dive
in here, share with the listeners where you're from originally
and where you are currently.
Speaker 2 (01:35):
Hello. I'm originally from Pennsylvania, just Okay, near Philadelphia, near
Valley Forge is where The Blob. Oh, my god, where
the Blob was filmed. It was a movie back in
the sixties. Yeah. That was my first job when I
was fifteen years old. Yeah, I was a candy striper. Yeah.
(01:58):
And then I joined the army I was twenty one,
and then I retired in Missouri. I went, I was
all throughout this global country and world with the journey
to serve my country. And now I reside here and
played in Missouri at south of Fortleanard, big Army base,
(02:19):
and I reside with my husband and my three years.
Speaker 1 (02:22):
I'll say this, I mean, well, talk us through initially
your desire to get into the service, and then we'll
talk about how everything unfolded for you. If that's okay.
Speaker 2 (02:46):
Sure. My family is very patriotic. My dad's dad was
an infantry soldier in Normandy. My grandfather, my mom's dad,
was a Army military police in World War Two. He
actually was my inspiration to maintain a rank of master
(03:06):
sergeant because he was a master sergeant also in the
NPE Corps. And then we just had a lot of
family who were in the military, and I grew up
with my mom being an army brat with that fine
line of respect. I'm the middle child of five, and
I always was patriotic, and I believe that it was
(03:28):
my time to like serve and be that servant. And
I think it was great because I played sports and everything,
so physically it wasn't a problem. Mentally it wasn't a
problem because I was you know, I'm just me. I'm
who I am. I smile a lot, and I just
care a lot. I'm selfless service. So I thought this
job was for me. So I was determined to do
(03:49):
my job successfully. Well, you know, my first duty station,
it was expecting and expected, your away from your family.
I'm on the West side, I'm in Fort Lewis, Washington,
and I'm out with my friends and I live in
the barracks. And six months, six months, the brand new soldier,
(04:17):
brand new soldier. And this was in ninety six, some
way from my family, you know, and just trying to
find friends shift work as military please, And I go
out my to a club on post and I meet
some friends and stuff. And then I go back to
the barracks and I'm on the bottom bunk and my
(04:41):
roommate had to go to emergency room because she had
a migraine, so she left the door and locked, and
I didn't think anything would be a problem. So I
woke up with the smell of I can't stand the
smell of bourbon and Copenhagen and some stale cologne, and
(05:03):
it was it was horrible. I mean, I can share
some stories because just just just because sensitize a lot
of the things I went through.
Speaker 1 (05:12):
Whatever you come to it really expecting you to come
on here and give us all the details. That's that's
share whatever you're comfortable with, of course.
Speaker 2 (05:21):
Okay, So we were.
Speaker 1 (05:25):
You alone in the barracks at this.
Speaker 2 (05:27):
Point, Okay, I was. I was the only one in
the room because my roommate, who lived on the top buck,
slept on the top buck. She would went to the
emergency room and she left the door locked because she
felt like it would be easier for her to get
(05:49):
in because she would be on medication. Or something. All
she had to do was just knock. I'm not saying
I'm not, but I would feel that you can leave
the door locked and nothing would happen. Excuse me, Oh okay,
I was two in a room. Yes, it's a barrack room.
It's I mean it's a barrack and then there's two
to a room. Uh yeah, usually uh sergeants, Uh, they
(06:13):
get their own room for themselves and stuff like that.
So I didn't know who this individual was who was
in my room. The next day, I went over, I
knocked on my uh neighbor's door, and I told him
what happened. And as I was walking out, because they
were going over for it was like a super Bowl
party or something like that, I saw the guy walk
(06:36):
down the hall and I started to like running after him,
and they tackled me, and they say it's not worth
it because I was gonna my my the ones who
who I was talking to, because I I wanted to
I wanted to kick his ass because he violated me,
you know, and it's it wasn't right, you know, so
(06:59):
uh then and receiving accommodation.
Speaker 1 (07:06):
Uh they tackled you or did you share this with
anyone else, Yes, sir, did you go up the chain
of command as it were?
Speaker 2 (07:16):
Okay, I shared it with I didn't know what to do.
I mean back then, I don't remember them expressing a
lot about the SHARP program, sexual harassment and right prevention.
I don't remember that at all as much as I
(07:37):
do now today. Even when I was a leader, I mean,
I was at crazy private.
Speaker 1 (07:42):
Uh.
Speaker 2 (07:43):
I kept to myself. I just did my I went
to the gym more and did my job, you know. Uh,
but I didn't really know a lot about who to
contact because that was just a private.
Speaker 1 (07:58):
So.
Speaker 2 (07:58):
Uh, the fire following Monday, I mean I was in
the front leaning rest position, like in a push up position, elevated,
and I had no idea why. And my leadership was like,
why didn't you contact us?
Speaker 1 (08:12):
You know?
Speaker 2 (08:13):
And because my friend's next door who i'd spoken to,
went to that super Bowl party and it was the
leader's super Bowl party, the platoons, and they said that
the new soldier you know, was assaulted or raped. And
because they didn't have a lot of detail about it
until I expressed it. So I had to go in
(08:34):
to see the commander in the next day and he's like, well,
what do you want us to do? As he's a
high headshed driver, nothing's going to happen to him. And
I just sat back. And then the following week he
was receiving an award, whether he was moving on to
a next staty station or getting out, and I had
to go shake his hand. Now, that in itself was
(08:56):
a story because I didn't want to shake his hand.
They maybe so, so it was. It was weird, like
a little voice system.
Speaker 1 (09:03):
How long ago was this?
Speaker 2 (09:08):
Okay?
Speaker 1 (09:09):
Okay? So how do you.
Speaker 2 (09:12):
This was in nineties ninety six, ninety seven.
Speaker 1 (09:16):
Personally, emotionally, mentally, how do you move on from this?
How are you handling this? Are you handling quote unquote
handling this? I?
Speaker 2 (09:28):
Oh, well, I internalized it a lot because I wanted
to just do my job and nobody was listening to me.
So it was hard to find trust in people, trust
in leadership, those who would know. And I wanted to
get out because after that, in ninety nine, my mentor
(09:51):
was shot and killed in Korea by a fellow and
p she she's an amazing she was an amazing woman.
She told me to get my head out of my
four point of contact many of times in my career,
and I wish she was there because she would have
done something and when the situation happened, But yeah, she
(10:13):
and I was to the point guy where I just
wanted to just get out of the military. But then
I met my husband ninety eight and we got married
and he had to get out from medical and he
was a desert storm veteran, and he said, will you
stay in? And I said, I'll stay in. So I
(10:34):
carried on twenty plus years. Of course, because I did
twenty one and a half, because I retired in twenty seventeen.
It was like a repetitive situation in a different way,
so cut, you know, like the not some I wasn't
(10:55):
raped again. I was assaulted when I was deployed, toxic leadership,
All this stuff happens to be part of this good
old boy system. And I reflect back, even though I
internalize it. It reflects back on the time when I
did get raped by this dude, this soldier who was
(11:16):
same uniform right as what we wear, what we put
on to protect our country, same unit. But he was
a driver for some way of higher ranking. So they
felt like they didn't want to do anything for him.
No one they.
Speaker 1 (11:31):
Stepped up for you. They were like, no, male men
stepped in and said, what the EPP is going on?
Speaker 2 (11:41):
Jesus, Nope, nope.
Speaker 1 (11:49):
No.
Speaker 2 (11:49):
I internalized it and drove on. And you know, then
then when I was in Afghanistan, I was sexually assaulted
by a friend of mine who I didn't think it
would ever happen out of all the people, and his
spouse was even in Afghanistan. It was crazy, and I
(12:13):
was just completely shocked, and I got I was to
the point where he was working for the general, so
within our unit we were like stretched out. We're convoy operations.
I work with the Navy Seals as a female marshal
every now and then, but there was a team that
worked for the General and he worked for them. So
(12:34):
even if I said something, it wouldn't matter to me
in my mind because.
Speaker 1 (12:41):
Unfortunately the answer to the question already But did you
were you able to seek any help, any kind of
quote unquote therapy or anything?
Speaker 2 (12:53):
Okay, yes, I yes, yes. And at first I thought
my security clearance was gonna like be taken from me
because I'm seeking mental health. But I knew that I
(13:14):
had to be taken care of because my journey in
the military like happened. Not fast, but I moved up
pretty quick in the military, like you know, deployed, and
then I put myself on drill star in orders, you know,
and then I become a first sergeant, you know, which
(13:34):
is like a master sergeant E eight in the army,
one step away from being a sire major. And this
is within fifteen years of my career. And I realized
that I have to take care of those underneath me,
and if I can't take care of myself, I can't
take care of those individuals. So I was getting into
my head because there's a lot of I was like,
(13:56):
what's wrong with me? You know? I thought that there
was something seriously wrong with me, because why is this
happening to me?
Speaker 1 (14:02):
You know?
Speaker 2 (14:02):
I stand up for myself. A lot of people think
I'm intimidating, but they mistaken like kindness for weakness. And
it breaks my heart knowing that stuff like this is
not did not only happen to me, but sharing a
lot of things that I did from writing my book,
a lot of other people, a lot of other women
(14:23):
and men who had spoken to.
Speaker 1 (14:26):
Well and out of uniform. So before we start talking
about the book and getting into the specifics, Lisa, how
I mean a lot of times people manage differently, people
(14:48):
get depressed, people become addicted, whatever they've shut down. What
were there symptoms going on for you as a result.
Speaker 2 (14:57):
Of all this, Yes, I stepped down a couple times
when I was a first sergeant, when I was in
charge of a company. I also when I was a
drill start and started seeking help because I was just
coming back from dealing with my deployment with a lot
(15:21):
of things I went through there, and then everything just
started coming into fruition because you internalized things right, and
then things just kind of like unpacked, like packing a
suitcase and explodes. Well, that's what was going on with me,
and I started having medical issues, not only headaches from
multiple concussions, you know in a blast. I started having
(15:44):
other like injuries and issues that I've never really happened
to me before because I'm really physically fit. So I
had to talk to somebody about that, and it didn't
stop me from still doing my job. I had to
realize that even today, I'm so selfless service I prefer
to take care of others and myself, but I almost
(16:05):
shut down. I'm my last duty station. A mist took
my life because I got to the same point where
nobody was listening to you.
Speaker 1 (16:11):
So admire and appreciate your service and for coming on
here and for writing the memoir. I can't imagine like
going through this. You you selflessly go in to serve
the country, you want to serve the country, and you
get freaking assaulted, and there's nowhere else to go. You
(16:34):
can't go, there's no outlet, there's no help. In a
sense that in and of itself is traumatizing. How did
you get to the point where you wanted to write
this memoir? Talk us through that?
Speaker 2 (16:56):
I went to the Winded Warrior Program in Fort Riley, Kansas.
That was my last duty station, and I had to
step down because I had suicide intentions. I didn't have
anybody my family was here, and nobody was listening to me.
(17:16):
I felt like I was just speaking out nobody.
Speaker 1 (17:24):
About Okay, So about eighteen.
Speaker 2 (17:27):
I had like two or three years left. Wow, okay
observed about eighteen years. It's it's it's really alone at
the top sometimes, especially if you're not like into like
things that other people are into, or you know, if
you don't know anybody, or if you don't have your
family around, it's very lonely, even though you have coping skills.
(17:49):
So I went to the Wounded Warrior Program. It's hard
for me to do that.
Speaker 1 (17:53):
The program within the army as.
Speaker 2 (17:55):
A higher ranking yeah, where they take people, They take
soldiers alike and they bring them into this facility and
they give them the treatment they need before they get out.
Speaker 1 (18:10):
Gerald vest a long time ago, who was one of
the founders of the Wounded Warrior Program. So I continue, please,
So you go there. What do you say to that?
Speaker 2 (18:21):
Yes, I go. I really didn't say much. I was
a hot mess because I was mad because I felt
like I failed. I failed myself and I failed my
family and I failed my country because I didn't finish
up what I wanted to do before I retired. I
felt like I stepped down multiple times, not just because
(18:41):
of my mental because the fact that there was like
nobody listening to me for what I believe in and
what I need to stand up for. You know what's
going on with me. So they said, we're going to
send you somewhere where you can get treatment for PTSD
and told a brain injury. So they sent me up
(19:04):
to Okay, I Yeah, I told my therapists about anything
I told I. I just gave them everything that I
was dealing with. Yes, there are days that I didn't
want to get up out of bed. They had to
come and get me. Uh many times I had to
go to a hospital. I had really bad migraines. I
(19:24):
pass out. I mean, I was just a hot mess.
I was there longer than I should have been because
everything just started falling out on me, like medical and mentally.
So they set me over for six month treatment over
to Minneapolis. I drove up there to Minneapolis the VA Hospital,
and I was impatient for six months. I was impatient
(19:47):
for like. It helped me out tremendously. I learned a
lot about the botox for the migraines. I did cognitive
process thinking with a therapist for twelve weeks. I caught
myself up up on the top floor in the fetal
position because a lot of stuff started popping out. Then
(20:08):
I said to come up and get me. I mean,
everything just starts popping out. And thank god I was
inpatient during that time, and I wasn't like out and
about so, I mean, because then you like what you
were talking about as far as you know, addictions and
stuff like that. I don't think i'd be addicted to anything,
you know, but I learned that like talking about everything,
(20:35):
and I had to write. If I get emotional, I apologize.
But just writing a lot about what happened to me
and how to read over it over and over again,
just read it in my head over and over again.
It helped me to sensitize a lot of the information,
so it kind of helps me heal and learn from it.
But I sat down as I was finishing up my
(20:57):
college degree. I started to write this book in support
of others because I realized that I'm not alone.
Speaker 1 (21:05):
At that point, hold on, I'm gonna sneeze a second.
Hold on, okay, pardon me. It was at that time
that you decided to write the book. You were still
in in treatment. What was the process? What did you
say to yourself? How did you realize you wanted to
write the book? And why?
Speaker 2 (21:30):
Many reasons UH for writing the book was knowing if
if I a senior non commissioned officer in the United
States Army Military Police Corps, of all, you know, I'm not.
I'm not saying anything about any other moss, but I'm
just saying ones who defend, protect, you know, and and
(21:54):
assist uh. Knowing that there are so many people out
there who do not speak up of what happened in
their past or what's going on in their life or
in their unit. They're gonna wind up having sane problems
as I'm having mentally they can't, They're gonna internalize it
(22:17):
and it's gonna affect them physically and emotionally. So I
wrote this book as a resource to let them know
that I went through it. But there's another there's the
other side of it. There's the other side. It's called
coping skills therapy. Don't be embarrassed to go to therapy,
(22:39):
you know, take your medications if you need to take it,
you know, and seek treatment.
Speaker 1 (22:44):
It seems to me, and correct me if I'm wrong,
that it's one thing to be able to or want
to speak up like you wanted to speak up. But
it feels it feels like from what you said there
way is that there was a sense of hopelessness. No
who do I go to, No one's gonna listen? Is
(23:08):
is that that's had? Have things changed in the military
at all? Are there is there more awareness? Are there
more resources? In place for for for women.
Speaker 2 (23:23):
Uh from what I was told, a guy, they have
a civilian who comes in like somebody from out of
the unit who comes in to investigate. Now, I mean
I don't know. To me, I understand, but I'm hoping
it would be somebody from a from one side of
the state to the other who doesn't know anybody, because
(23:45):
I mean, I came into a situation. Give me a second.
Like when I left Fort leonard Wood, Missouri to get
to my last duty station in Fort Riley, there was
a civilian who I knew, who was in the Military
Police Corp who retired moved down to Fort Riley to
be a liaison down there. And before I even went
(24:06):
down there to be a first sergeant, everybody knew about me.
I lasted five months. My star, a major down there,
knew me before I could even show my face. So
as long as that civilian is like somebody who nobody
knows within the.
Speaker 1 (24:24):
Unit, kind of a neutral party.
Speaker 2 (24:26):
Then I think it would be safe. Yeah yeah, because
it if not, then nobody speaks up.
Speaker 3 (24:33):
So your book is for whom I anybody can understand it,
because I think I try to make it like civilian
terminology so it's not like you know, military read There
may be some words in there, but there are no
(24:55):
names in there.
Speaker 2 (24:57):
You can kind of tell what's what. The book is
just short stories to share with those maybe who face
the challenges that I face, just to inspire me, to
inspire motivate them to never give up and speak up
because we all have a voice. People shut down, you know,
they don't want to speak, you know, and that's why
(25:18):
we I mean, I can tell you, like so many
friends who I lost based off of stuff that has
happened to me, has had they took their life or
they're addicted to something. So there's got to be a
way for them to understand that there's more than life.
(25:40):
Then just sometimes you just can't let go. And it's
hard for me to let go sometimes. But yes, just
a resource.
Speaker 1 (25:47):
After any obstacles in writing this book in terms of
like from the military, I mean.
Speaker 3 (25:55):
Is it is it.
Speaker 1 (25:58):
Easy in a sense to write a book like this,
like logic logistically, Oh, I'm going to write this and
obviously it has some You're making a pretty big statement
by saying that you're basically calling out, justifiably so the military.
Did you receive any backlash in a sense, I have.
Speaker 2 (26:21):
Not received backlash. Well, the only critique I received was
from an old well, my first first sergeant. He said
that I spelled McClellan wrong. It was a typo for McClellan, Alabama,
so it was spelled wrong. I think it was just
an edit typo from them. But I know I have
not received any backlash. I did receive a message from
(26:44):
a friend of mine who I was deployed with. She's
messaged me on Facebook and she's like, Hey, can I
talk to you? And I was like sure. She was
the spouse who was married to that sergeant who yasically
assaulted me out there, And she's like I thought it
would be him, and they're no longer together. She's remarried.
Speaker 1 (27:07):
Wow. Has this brought to you in contact with other
women or men who've experienced this?
Speaker 2 (27:18):
When I when I do, when I guest speak. I
went to Indianapolis and I think it was twenty twenty one,
and it was a Disabled Army veteran event and I
had ninety five women from all services from the Whack
all the way to Current and we're in a hangar
(27:40):
and the dav bought one hundred books and they gave
each lady a copy. So after I spoke, I had
a line all the way to the back of the hangar,
and some lady was I felt so bad. She was
doing a death by PowerPoint presentation. And each lady, each
lady had a story. I wish I was there. I
(28:02):
was flying, so I couldn't stick around long enough to
kind of, you know, sit down and listen to them.
But each lady who I signed their book, they all
had a story from whatever generation. Maybe. Yeah, it's pretty sad.
I mean, I don't know. We don't hear a lot
of that. And it's okay, you know, and I know,
(28:26):
I know as you.
Speaker 1 (28:28):
Sit here now and as we kind of wind down,
but how are you feeling about how are you doing
right now in your life?
Speaker 2 (28:40):
I'm okay, I'm okay. I'll be uh, I'll be fifty
one in September. I feel like I'm going through one
of those midlife crisis, you know. I'm looking into writing
another book, and it's one of those transition books. When
people get out, soldiers get out, they take off that uniform,
(29:02):
they get lost. So I'm trying to write a book about,
you know, ways that they don't have to be lost
wherever they go, and the resources out there. I have
my paint party business keeps me going. I'm taking care
of myself, getting myself checked out via surgeries and appointments,
(29:25):
you know, trying to trying to do things, you know,
keep meself going well.
Speaker 1 (29:31):
Lisa, I mean, I just admire you so much for
sitting here, for being here, for reaching out to me,
and for coming on here and sharing your story, and
for writing your book. I mean, I can't imagine how
that that was easy at all, especially within the whole
context of things. And I think it's you doing an
(29:52):
incredible service for speaking out and for helping other people
like yourself. How do people learn more about you and
reach out to you and get the book?
Speaker 2 (30:05):
Thank you guy? My my books on Amazon. Uh. If
you look up Lisa kirk k I R k uh
in and out of uniform. If you google my book title,
it might take you to some guys with no shirts on.
I didn't realize that when I did the title. Uh.
(30:26):
But yeah, it's a you can do. Uh. I think
it's a kindle or a just as it's it's not
a hardback, so it's a soft book. It's an easy read.
Speaker 3 (30:35):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (30:36):
My social media UH, if you're everyone to just get
in touch with me is if you go to w
w W dot create with l I s e e
dot com, create with licy dot com. Uh, it has
my contact information where you can get my book and
(30:58):
I wrote I wrote a song too as well.
Speaker 1 (31:00):
Awesome, awesome, awesome, all right, we'll have I'm putting that here.
We'll have that linked up here at the show notes
page at the Trauma Therapist podcast dot com, both your
book and your website. Ah, Lisa, appreciate you and Jesus
(31:23):
thank you for you for what you're doing. We'll be in.
Speaker 2 (31:25):
Touch, yes, sir, thank you.
Speaker 1 (31:27):
For take care of you too. By man h
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.