July 7, 2025 • 30 mins
Justine is a California licensed psychologist, coach and author of the book How the Fuck Do I Heal from This? who loves helping people heal, recover & thrive after a narcissistic abusive relationship.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to the Trauma Hipps Podcast. My name is Ga Macpherson.
I interview incredible people who've dedicated their lives to helping
those who've been impacted by trauma. Here we go five four, three,
two and one, our folks, welcome back to the podcast.
Very excited to have my guest today, doctor Justine Weber. Justine, welcome.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 1 (00:23):
You are welcome. So Justine is a California licens psychologist,
coach and author of the book How the Fuck Do
I Heal From This who loves helping people heal, recover,
and thrive after a narcissistic, abusive relationship. All right, so
short and sweet bio. We're going to get more into that,
but before we do, Justine share with the listeners where
(00:45):
you're from originally and where you are currently.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
Sure, So, I'm from California. I was raised in a
small town called Hemmett. It's kind of it's the kind
of place that you drive out of you don't if
you know what I mean?
Speaker 1 (01:00):
Is it hemet?
Speaker 2 (01:01):
Hemet, California where north south where it's like the Inland Empire.
It's like kind of driving toward like Palm Springs, but
like an hour from Palm Springs, like Corona, not that Temecula.
So it's kind of the drug capital right now from
what I've heard. You want good meth, go to Henan.
Speaker 1 (01:23):
That's another podcast.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
Yeah, but I currently live in Nevada. My private practice
is in California. It's in New Park Beach by Fashion Island,
and I, you know, see adults, and you know, I
do some psychological testing, but really not that much. But
then I live in Nevada, so I fly back and forth.
(01:46):
But for my coaching business, I see people all around
the country.
Speaker 1 (01:51):
Okay, so let's get into it here. How did we're
going to talk about the book? I love the title,
by the way, thank you. It's right to the poet,
not messing around. How did how did all this start
for you? And when I say this, I mean your
(02:12):
interest in uh psychology, your pursuit the specialty of narcissism.
Let's go go.
Speaker 2 (02:20):
Yeah, so that's a fair question. I well, I wanted
to become a psychologist. That sort of developed when I
was very young, and it really kind of started, I
guess when I think about it from my mom. My
mom is very mentally ill. She's narcissistic, she's also a borderline.
(02:42):
She's got a lot of really interesting traits about her.
And just my whole life growing up, I just always
had this question like what is this? This is so weird,
like this doesn't seem normal. What what is this? Like
somebody can't be normal and function like this. So I
was just constantly questioning that. And then I didn't even
(03:05):
really realize that my mom was narcissistic until really like
college or sorry, no, no, no, Actually it was college
when I was taking a psychology clust and I learned
about MPD and I was like, oh my god, she
meets like every one of those criteria that progressed into
(03:26):
you know, I was just so intrigued with it. And
then I met my first husband at like twenty two.
I guess it was very niven, innocent, raised Mormon. I'm
not now, and so I had no experience and met
my first husband, who essentially was a replicant of my mom.
(03:47):
And so I was married for probably like almost fifteen years,
have four children, and suffered a tremendous I mean, it
was a terrible marriage. I did not realize that it
was abusive really until actually I left and so then
I just immersed myself in a lot of treatment. And
(04:10):
I remember this therapist. I was seeing so many different
therapists and nobody got it right until this one therapist,
and it was really he's also a drug addict. And
so that's why it was very confusing for me during
the marriage because I kept thinking, if I could just
get that under control, everything's going to be great, everything
is going to be fine. Well that never happened, and
(04:33):
things just got so bad. So I finally left. But
this therapist that I was working with, you know, she
was like just seeing that the core of the problem
with this is not the drug use. It's narcissism. That's
what it is. You know. The drug use oftentimes for
people who are a narcissistic, it kind of feeds their grandiosity,
you know, particularly like you know, alcohol or cocaine or
(04:58):
you know porn or you know, things that are really exciting,
you know, and dopamine releases. So I was just just like,
wait what, And so I just became obsessed with narcissism
at that point. I could not learn enough about it.
And then I just immersed myself in treatment. I was
(05:19):
seeing a therapist, I was seeing a spiritual healer. I
was somebody for like somatic experience work trying to kind
of heal you know, my trauma and you know, and
my body connected with myself. I was doing yoga, I
mean truly I was. I could not have done anymore.
And that was kind of the staple I guess for
(05:40):
me eventually forming my coaching business.
Speaker 1 (05:43):
Which is what Okay, let me let me interduct here.
So what is we hear about narcissism? Narcissism? What is it? So?
Speaker 2 (05:53):
Narcissism is essentially you could describe it as like a
personality trade. It's like a whole list of traits and
behaviors that makes somebody narcissistic. So it really is in
a way, like a way of describing somebody, you know,
it's also a whole list of traits and so for
(06:13):
somebody to so people oftentimes are like my partners, like
super selfish, he's a narcissist. No, not necessarily. It's a
combination of this list of consistent across a lifespan of
personality traits and temperament that makes someone narcissistic. So the
(06:36):
typical ones are you know, entitlement, grandiosity, pathological, selfishness, line
gas lighting, you know, inability to be accountable, uh, blaming
you somebody who has this excessive need for admiration, attention, validation.
(07:03):
And so when you get this whole list, then you
can pretty much confirm that somebody is narcissistic. Now I'd
have to say, like when I work with people, they
really have a hard time of like it are they
aren't they? I don't want to diagnose. Okay, I don't
even care. That's fine, don't call them, you know, a narcissist.
(07:23):
Let's focus on the problematic behavior that has been a
pattern that you have consistently seen in this relationship. Because
what we know about personality is it really is stable
over a lifetime. You know, for somebody who is maybe
an introvert, you know when they are young, that's going
to be stable. That's a temperament, that's a trait, and
personality is stable as well. That's why this is like
(07:46):
a lifetime of this problematic behavior that you see in
a relationship.
Speaker 1 (07:52):
Okay, so let's take us back a little when you
were young to your mom. Give us a little window
of what that looked like.
Speaker 2 (08:06):
She was really Uh, let's see emotionally disregulated. Oh and entitlement.
I don't know if I included that. Yeah, it's a
huge one. Entitlement, air agance, all of that. She was
incredibly emotionally disregulated. She would just completely freak out and
just become disregulated so easily over like something that's like
(08:29):
kind of small. She was very manipulative and controlling, uh,
toward my dad. I mean she really isolated my dad.
He cut off, he had to cut off his entire family,
which they're lovely people because of her. She had this
ongoing my entire life. She has I think like literally
(08:53):
probably like twenty six lawsuits that she's sue people. So
I would probably describe her as a little bit more
of maybe a malignant She also has the vulnerability as well.
She's the victim like poor me, but she has sued literally,
I mean she has sued multiple family members. She has
sued like the irs, she sued like hospitals, she sued
(09:16):
her sisters, I mean, she sued the Mormon Church. I
mean the list like goes on. And she's never won
any lawsuit because these were all very distorted cases of
her imagination of why you know, she deserves this, but
it did stop her, So it was always everybody's fault,
everybody's out to get her. So just this ongoing blaming
(09:40):
this victim, but just in general, this consistent chaos. Consistent chaos,
and her disregulated emotions were you know, she was working
on a case or something, one of her lawsuits, and
then she would get the letter in the mail and
she would just completely freak out, and it just the
entire house is just on high alert, you know, the
(10:01):
hypervigilance and walking on eggshells. And I also saw how
she really never was able to form a healthy relationship
with anybody in her life. I mean all of her sisters.
She had very few friends, and so a lot of
like isolation, but just control. She really needed to be in,
(10:26):
you know, dominating, controlling, manipulating, condescending. She's really great at manipulating,
and she's really like you see the charm too, because
when she would like walk into a room or like
you know, like a I don't know, like a wedding
or something like that, you know, she's very friendly, she's talkative,
so you see like the you know, the charm. But
(10:49):
her intention was always to dominate, when to exploit, to
find ways to essentially harm other people, you know, for
her own gain.
Speaker 1 (11:03):
You mentioned that your your first husband, also what's the
proper term, was a narcissist or suffered from n MPD
narcissisic personality disorder, was diagnosed with NPD. I'm assuming there
was a charm there as well. But before before we go,
(11:24):
there is some might some listening might think, well, her
mother had this, it's not surprising that she was attracted.
How is that surprising or what?
Speaker 2 (11:38):
Absolutely, there's always you know, this is one thing I
helped my clients is there's always reasons why we get
through situations like this, and we have to really for
healing and recovery, we have to understand and get clarity
on our backstory. It's not about blame or shame, it's
about trying to understand. And so I just it was
(11:59):
normal for me. It felt familiar. And also this power
differential too, where you know he you know, I was broke,
I had no money and I came from no money,
and you know he had higher financial status and was
extremely educated, and so there was automatically this huge power
(12:20):
difference which contribute, which can set you up for getting
in a dynamic like this where you can you know,
be in a relationship with somebody who is an abuser.
You know, they abuse that power and then this is
really when like trauma bonds are formed two and there's
a power difference. But I just want to make a correction.
(12:41):
He was not ever diagnosed. That's just my own assessment.
But it was absolutely that whole power control, dominating and everything.
It was very familiar to me.
Speaker 1 (12:56):
This It sounds exhausting, not just exhausting, but traumatic and exhausting.
And this whole idea of gas lighting and explain gaslighting
for those who aren't familiar.
Speaker 2 (13:10):
Yeah, so gas lighting is this manipulative technique that abusers
use where they want to change your perception about something
and so you you know, essentially they want to change
your experience and your perception and narrative of something because
(13:31):
they want to keep living how they are and they
don't want to ever be accountable. And so gas lighting
for the victim can feel like they're drowning in second
guessing themselves. They're questioning things, they're so confused, they're like,
wait a minute, I'm pretty sure that happened, but you're
telling me that it didn't, and I'm pretty sure it happened.
(13:54):
So this is a very malicious, intentional behavior for the abuser,
like they know what they're doing. They probably don't know
what the term is, but it is definitely intentional because
other times when people they call it gas lighting, but
it's not like gaslighting is very much intentional and it's malicious.
(14:18):
It has this intent of changing your perception of something
for your gain.
Speaker 1 (14:25):
I just want to remind everyone. I speaking with doctor
Justine Webber. Her book is called How the Fuck Do
I Heal From This? So let's get into this. I mean,
as you're talking, I'm thinking, how do you how do
you get through this? How do you heal from this?
First of all, how did you get to the point
(14:45):
where you're like I want to write this book or
I need to write this book, or I got to
write this book or was that like.
Speaker 2 (14:54):
Sure, yeah, that was I mean, I guess I can
call myself an author, but I don't really feel like
an author because this will probably be like my one
and only It was definitely interesting. I guess initially what
sparked my interest in writing a book is when I
launched my coaching business. I literally was like, I have
(15:15):
no idea. This could be a huge flop. It could
be a big failure, but you know what, I am
so passionate about this that I almost was like, I
don't even care. I'm going to try even if this
is a failure. Because it was a huge financial investment
and I started a social media account and I didn't
know anything about it, and so I had to hire
(15:36):
a company to help me like filming and so forth.
But I grew so quickly, like so quickly. I mean
I started off with like four hundred followers and within
a really short period of time, you know, you know,
it went from like ten thousand, you know, to fifteen thousand,
and so I realized at that point, like how many
(15:57):
people are wondering about this and suffering. And I was like,
I just have to find a way to really connect
with so many more people that are in this place
of like what the f what is this? I'm so confused,
I'm so broken. I feel so like debilitated, like what
(16:20):
is this? And so that's when I made the decision.
I'm like, you know, I just need to get a
book out there to help even more people, even you know,
if they're not following me.
Speaker 1 (16:33):
Well, let's talk about the book a little bit. What
did you want to accomplish through the book. And who's
it for.
Speaker 2 (16:41):
It's really for a client. I primarily work with women.
I do work with men as well, And the interesting
thing is that the men that I've worked with, who
are usually like going through divorce or leaving their ex
wives or wives, are oftentimes so much work than the
(17:02):
female clients I work with in their ex husbands, just
like they're almost like psychopaths. They are just out to destroy.
This one client I worked with, he ended up like
living in his car for a while because and I
mean this man was like a very successful businessman and
his wife just completely destroyed him in every way. It
(17:26):
was so sad. But to your point, so who is
the message really? The typical audience would be a woman
who has been in a long term relationship or a
man and they are at this place where they're coming
they're leaving, and they are recognizing like this is bad,
(17:47):
this is abusive, I need to get out. But they're
in this place like they don't know what it is
and they want like help to kind of give them
some guidance and handholding along the way of you know,
identifying what this is. I have some chapters or a
(18:09):
chapter on trauma, you know, because that's a really big
piece and the why this is psychological abuse and why
it changes the brain. I mean, there's research that shows
that it changes the size of you know, the hippocampus,
the prefrontal cortex, the you know, amygdala and everything. And
so to be able to put words to experiences that
(18:30):
have been so painful and you've been living in this
fog for such a long time is so incredibly powerful.
I mean, I'm living proof and I'm a shrink, and
so for me to stay as long as I did,
you know, when I already knew my mom you know,
was like narcissistic and everything. It just really speaks to
(18:54):
It doesn't make you stupid, you know, there's nothing about that.
It just speaks to how confusing these relationships are when
you're in it, and how it can truly make you
feel like you're living in a fog where you just
absolutely cannot see things clearly. And then once you you know,
because that's another piece is when you're in relationships like that,
(19:16):
they tend to like isolate you, and so you lose
your capacity of having any sounding board or anybody that
is going to foster that sense of reality. And clarity
for you, which is really what you need. So oftentimes
when you leave that environment, that's where you can start
(19:37):
unpacking all of this and beginning to rebuild the self.
Speaker 1 (19:45):
So this is very much and correct me if I'm
wrong here. Psychological abuse absolutely trauma, the trauma that comes
from that. And unlike physical abuse, I mean even physical abuse,
people who are victimized with physical abuse, we often hear that,
(20:06):
you know, they tend to stay or can stay in
that relationship. But here there's a psychological abuse that just
sounds tormenting. It sounds just incredibly suffocating and harmful. My gosh.
So enmeshment healing, let's talk about these things. What is
(20:33):
enmeshment here in this context?
Speaker 2 (20:36):
So in measurement, there's a few categories that I've you know,
realized with enmeshment. There's en meshment with narcissistic people, like
if you have a narcissistic parent and you know, and
meshment is essentially where there's no boundaries in a relationship.
And essentially when a parent uses h child to serve
(21:01):
their emotional needs. That's why this is incredibly abusive. So
you lose this self essentially, and so this is very
much in narcissistic dynamics. Uh, this is very much again malicious,
it's calculated. I do believe that they kind of they
probably don't know the terms, but they have that awareness
(21:23):
of like what they're doing because they're they are all
they're cohersive controllers. All narcissistic people are cohersive controllers, which
is expands the realm of like not just physical or sexual,
it's everything. It's psychological, it's gas lighting, it's manipulating, it's intimidating,
(21:45):
it's instilling fear, it's you know, where the you know,
it's about dominating and how overpowering someone else. And so
for the victim who is being controlled like this, you know,
they're oftentimes broken and it's debilitating it they oftentimes just
have this like dread. I mean, it's just so horrific.
(22:07):
So for narcissistic people it is different. I do think
it is malicious. However, there are other categories of people
who form and meshed relationships with their children and they
really are unaware and it's really innocent, like they're not
trying to you know, they don't know what they're doing,
(22:30):
I guess, is what I'm saying. You really don't know
what they're doing. They believe very much. I've talked to
a bunch of these parents. They are so close with
their son and they just have this great relationship and
they're so close and they share each other everything. They
really believe that they're a good parent. But and mesh
Men is truly like this child serves a job when
(22:53):
you like birth them, and as they grow older, their
job is their role. They have a duty and obligation
to meet your needs of validation, you know, intimacy, connection,
you know, you know, ego fulfillment, you know, you know,
(23:16):
a sense of purpose in life. And so the child
just does not have a self. It like merges. There's
no boundaries, there's no autonomy, there's no independence at all.
It's incredibly sad and destructive.
Speaker 1 (23:34):
Especially for a young kid who grows up not knowing
any better. This sounds even more debilitating when it happens
for a young kid.
Speaker 2 (23:41):
Right, absolutely, I like I noticed these parents, like some
of the typical kind of traits are like you know,
they are just overbearing with their childs, like they are
overly protective. They are like the mom where they're at
(24:04):
every single sports game, you know, drop them off, pick
them up. You know, they're like the pta mom and
they're coming into the classroom and putting on parties. So
can you see how like to the outside world it
can be very confusing for child because you probably have
a teacher who's like, oh my gosh, your mom is
so sweets you so much, she's such a good mom.
(24:24):
But it is very much embedded. It literally is like
this smothering of you. It very much is embedded of
like you serve my needs. And so this child is
like a friend, you know, sarahates spouse. I'm sure you've
heard of that term. You know, they are the friend,
(24:45):
the sister, the therapist, the husband of the mom, and
it's like that for the rest of their life. It's
so incredibly sad. But I've also seen a lot of
like sexualizing too, where you know, the mom will sexualize
the son, and then the son because their job and
(25:06):
role is to serve the mom, they will give the
mom like the sexualized attention that she's really wanting. And
so I see this in like a few different categories
where maybe there's a mom who does not have a
husband for whatever reason, either he died, they got a divorce,
he's not in the picture. Research shows that only children
(25:31):
have a much higher chance of this forming. When they're
only children, or even if she's married to the husband
or the dad, they just don't have really a connected relationship.
Either he's got physical problems or just something's wrong where
there's no connection in intimacy and attachment, and so this
(25:53):
son becomes that replacement. And so these kids, it's just
so incredibly said. So I typically get calls from wives
actually who are married to men like this, who have
this enmeshed inappropriate relationship with their mom, and as you
can expect, it interferes in the marriage because the mom
(26:15):
is incredibly jealous, she really does. She finds this wife
a threat where it's like, you're taking my son away,
And so it causes so many problems in a marriage
where you know, at some point you really do have
to choose like your mom or your wife. And it
(26:35):
becomes so complicated because these sons have been drowning in guilt, obligation,
you know, duty, and these moms are so manipulating where
it's like if you try to send about, you know,
try to set a boundary to distance yourself, it's like,
how dare you you know, it's met with rage and anger.
(26:57):
I've done everything for you.
Speaker 1 (26:59):
I have.
Speaker 2 (26:59):
I gave up a career for you. I was at
every single baseball game of yours. How dare you for
treating me like this? And can you see how damaging
this is? That is not the job of parents. When
you decide to have a child, Your job is to
provide unconditional and positive regard for this child, to create
(27:21):
a sense of safety where the child eventually forms independence, autonomy, separateness,
separate values, likes and dislikes. It is so damaging when
you take that from them.
Speaker 1 (27:36):
God, So let's kind of shift gears here as we
kind of wind down. Who do you work with? You
work with clients, you said a lot of women. Do
you also work with therapists? Do you provide coaching to
them people who want to learn more about this or
what not?
Speaker 2 (27:56):
Yet? I mean, that is something I'd like to That's
another piece of my coaching business that I would like
to begin doing is probably doing those online courses and
working with more professionals. But I don't have that yet.
Therapists definitely need to be trained in this. I have
just had heard the most horrific stories from clients of
(28:19):
terrible information that the therapist has said to them, which
has just contributed to more of the you know, being
a victim and everything. And so yeah, that is something
that I would like to get into next Okay.
Speaker 1 (28:34):
But for example, if there are a lot of therapists
will listen to this, maybe they are not qualified, maybe
they can send clients your way for coaching, I.
Speaker 2 (28:46):
Would absolutely do, just like you know, supervision or you
know like that.
Speaker 1 (28:52):
Absolutely okay, So what's the best way for people to
reach out and learn more about what you're doing?
Speaker 2 (28:57):
So I have so my coaching business website is doctor
Justin Weber dot com. My private practice website is Sereneshift
dot com. That's the one in California. And then I'm
on all of the social media platforms. I'm on TikTok, Instagram,
and what's the other one.
Speaker 1 (29:18):
In Facebook and book Yeah, okay, I.
Speaker 2 (29:21):
Mainly use Instagram. So you can always reach out to
me like direct message on Facebook and Instagram. They can
call me too, my phone numbers. I mean a lot
of people I'm really casual about that call my work.
All It's fine, Okay, that's on my website too.
Speaker 1 (29:42):
All right, we'll have that linked up here at the
show notes page at the Trauma Therapist podcast dot com. Justine, awesome,
intense love to have you back because I know there's
so much to talk about, but I really appreciate you
being here and sharing your story. I know this is
gonna be helpful for a lot of the people and
(30:02):
look forward to talking to with you again.
Speaker 2 (30:04):
Thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (30:05):
All right, take care, m M M
Welcome to the Trauma Hipps Podcast. My name is Ga Macpherson.
I interview incredible people who've dedicated their lives to helping
those who've been impacted by trauma. Here we go five four, three,
two and one, our folks, welcome back to the podcast.
Very excited to have my guest today, doctor Justine Weber. Justine, welcome.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 1 (00:23):
You are welcome. So Justine is a California licens psychologist,
coach and author of the book How the Fuck Do
I Heal From This who loves helping people heal, recover,
and thrive after a narcissistic, abusive relationship. All right, so
short and sweet bio. We're going to get more into that,
but before we do, Justine share with the listeners where
(00:45):
you're from originally and where you are currently.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
Sure, So, I'm from California. I was raised in a
small town called Hemmett. It's kind of it's the kind
of place that you drive out of you don't if
you know what I mean?
Speaker 1 (01:00):
Is it hemet?
Speaker 2 (01:01):
Hemet, California where north south where it's like the Inland Empire.
It's like kind of driving toward like Palm Springs, but
like an hour from Palm Springs, like Corona, not that Temecula.
So it's kind of the drug capital right now from
what I've heard. You want good meth, go to Henan.
Speaker 1 (01:23):
That's another podcast.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
Yeah, but I currently live in Nevada. My private practice
is in California. It's in New Park Beach by Fashion Island,
and I, you know, see adults, and you know, I
do some psychological testing, but really not that much. But
then I live in Nevada, so I fly back and forth.
(01:46):
But for my coaching business, I see people all around
the country.
Speaker 1 (01:51):
Okay, so let's get into it here. How did we're
going to talk about the book? I love the title,
by the way, thank you. It's right to the poet,
not messing around. How did how did all this start
for you? And when I say this, I mean your
(02:12):
interest in uh psychology, your pursuit the specialty of narcissism.
Let's go go.
Speaker 2 (02:20):
Yeah, so that's a fair question. I well, I wanted
to become a psychologist. That sort of developed when I
was very young, and it really kind of started, I
guess when I think about it from my mom. My
mom is very mentally ill. She's narcissistic, she's also a borderline.
(02:42):
She's got a lot of really interesting traits about her.
And just my whole life growing up, I just always
had this question like what is this? This is so weird,
like this doesn't seem normal. What what is this? Like
somebody can't be normal and function like this. So I
was just constantly questioning that. And then I didn't even
(03:05):
really realize that my mom was narcissistic until really like
college or sorry, no, no, no, Actually it was college
when I was taking a psychology clust and I learned
about MPD and I was like, oh my god, she
meets like every one of those criteria that progressed into
(03:26):
you know, I was just so intrigued with it. And
then I met my first husband at like twenty two.
I guess it was very niven, innocent, raised Mormon. I'm
not now, and so I had no experience and met
my first husband, who essentially was a replicant of my mom.
(03:47):
And so I was married for probably like almost fifteen years,
have four children, and suffered a tremendous I mean, it
was a terrible marriage. I did not realize that it
was abusive really until actually I left and so then
I just immersed myself in a lot of treatment. And
(04:10):
I remember this therapist. I was seeing so many different
therapists and nobody got it right until this one therapist,
and it was really he's also a drug addict. And
so that's why it was very confusing for me during
the marriage because I kept thinking, if I could just
get that under control, everything's going to be great, everything
is going to be fine. Well that never happened, and
(04:33):
things just got so bad. So I finally left. But
this therapist that I was working with, you know, she
was like just seeing that the core of the problem
with this is not the drug use. It's narcissism. That's
what it is. You know. The drug use oftentimes for
people who are a narcissistic, it kind of feeds their grandiosity,
you know, particularly like you know, alcohol or cocaine or
(04:58):
you know porn or you know, things that are really exciting,
you know, and dopamine releases. So I was just just like,
wait what, And so I just became obsessed with narcissism
at that point. I could not learn enough about it.
And then I just immersed myself in treatment. I was
(05:19):
seeing a therapist, I was seeing a spiritual healer. I
was somebody for like somatic experience work trying to kind
of heal you know, my trauma and you know, and
my body connected with myself. I was doing yoga, I
mean truly I was. I could not have done anymore.
And that was kind of the staple I guess for
(05:40):
me eventually forming my coaching business.
Speaker 1 (05:43):
Which is what Okay, let me let me interduct here.
So what is we hear about narcissism? Narcissism? What is it? So?
Speaker 2 (05:53):
Narcissism is essentially you could describe it as like a
personality trade. It's like a whole list of traits and
behaviors that makes somebody narcissistic. So it really is in
a way, like a way of describing somebody, you know,
it's also a whole list of traits and so for
(06:13):
somebody to so people oftentimes are like my partners, like
super selfish, he's a narcissist. No, not necessarily. It's a
combination of this list of consistent across a lifespan of
personality traits and temperament that makes someone narcissistic. So the
(06:36):
typical ones are you know, entitlement, grandiosity, pathological, selfishness, line
gas lighting, you know, inability to be accountable, uh, blaming
you somebody who has this excessive need for admiration, attention, validation.
(07:03):
And so when you get this whole list, then you
can pretty much confirm that somebody is narcissistic. Now I'd
have to say, like when I work with people, they
really have a hard time of like it are they
aren't they? I don't want to diagnose. Okay, I don't
even care. That's fine, don't call them, you know, a narcissist.
(07:23):
Let's focus on the problematic behavior that has been a
pattern that you have consistently seen in this relationship. Because
what we know about personality is it really is stable
over a lifetime. You know, for somebody who is maybe
an introvert, you know when they are young, that's going
to be stable. That's a temperament, that's a trait, and
personality is stable as well. That's why this is like
(07:46):
a lifetime of this problematic behavior that you see in
a relationship.
Speaker 1 (07:52):
Okay, so let's take us back a little when you
were young to your mom. Give us a little window
of what that looked like.
Speaker 2 (08:06):
She was really Uh, let's see emotionally disregulated. Oh and entitlement.
I don't know if I included that. Yeah, it's a
huge one. Entitlement, air agance, all of that. She was
incredibly emotionally disregulated. She would just completely freak out and
just become disregulated so easily over like something that's like
(08:29):
kind of small. She was very manipulative and controlling, uh,
toward my dad. I mean she really isolated my dad.
He cut off, he had to cut off his entire family,
which they're lovely people because of her. She had this
ongoing my entire life. She has I think like literally
(08:53):
probably like twenty six lawsuits that she's sue people. So
I would probably describe her as a little bit more
of maybe a malignant She also has the vulnerability as well.
She's the victim like poor me, but she has sued literally,
I mean she has sued multiple family members. She has
sued like the irs, she sued like hospitals, she sued
(09:16):
her sisters, I mean, she sued the Mormon Church. I
mean the list like goes on. And she's never won
any lawsuit because these were all very distorted cases of
her imagination of why you know, she deserves this, but
it did stop her, So it was always everybody's fault,
everybody's out to get her. So just this ongoing blaming
(09:40):
this victim, but just in general, this consistent chaos. Consistent chaos,
and her disregulated emotions were you know, she was working
on a case or something, one of her lawsuits, and
then she would get the letter in the mail and
she would just completely freak out, and it just the
entire house is just on high alert, you know, the
(10:01):
hypervigilance and walking on eggshells. And I also saw how
she really never was able to form a healthy relationship
with anybody in her life. I mean all of her sisters.
She had very few friends, and so a lot of
like isolation, but just control. She really needed to be in,
(10:26):
you know, dominating, controlling, manipulating, condescending. She's really great at manipulating,
and she's really like you see the charm too, because
when she would like walk into a room or like
you know, like a I don't know, like a wedding
or something like that, you know, she's very friendly, she's talkative,
so you see like the you know, the charm. But
(10:49):
her intention was always to dominate, when to exploit, to
find ways to essentially harm other people, you know, for
her own gain.
Speaker 1 (11:03):
You mentioned that your your first husband, also what's the
proper term, was a narcissist or suffered from n MPD
narcissisic personality disorder, was diagnosed with NPD. I'm assuming there
was a charm there as well. But before before we go,
(11:24):
there is some might some listening might think, well, her
mother had this, it's not surprising that she was attracted.
How is that surprising or what?
Speaker 2 (11:38):
Absolutely, there's always you know, this is one thing I
helped my clients is there's always reasons why we get
through situations like this, and we have to really for
healing and recovery, we have to understand and get clarity
on our backstory. It's not about blame or shame, it's
about trying to understand. And so I just it was
(11:59):
normal for me. It felt familiar. And also this power
differential too, where you know he you know, I was broke,
I had no money and I came from no money,
and you know he had higher financial status and was
extremely educated, and so there was automatically this huge power
(12:20):
difference which contribute, which can set you up for getting
in a dynamic like this where you can you know,
be in a relationship with somebody who is an abuser.
You know, they abuse that power and then this is
really when like trauma bonds are formed two and there's
a power difference. But I just want to make a correction.
(12:41):
He was not ever diagnosed. That's just my own assessment.
But it was absolutely that whole power control, dominating and everything.
It was very familiar to me.
Speaker 1 (12:56):
This It sounds exhausting, not just exhausting, but traumatic and exhausting.
And this whole idea of gas lighting and explain gaslighting
for those who aren't familiar.
Speaker 2 (13:10):
Yeah, so gas lighting is this manipulative technique that abusers
use where they want to change your perception about something
and so you you know, essentially they want to change
your experience and your perception and narrative of something because
(13:31):
they want to keep living how they are and they
don't want to ever be accountable. And so gas lighting
for the victim can feel like they're drowning in second
guessing themselves. They're questioning things, they're so confused, they're like,
wait a minute, I'm pretty sure that happened, but you're
telling me that it didn't, and I'm pretty sure it happened.
(13:54):
So this is a very malicious, intentional behavior for the abuser,
like they know what they're doing. They probably don't know
what the term is, but it is definitely intentional because
other times when people they call it gas lighting, but
it's not like gaslighting is very much intentional and it's malicious.
(14:18):
It has this intent of changing your perception of something
for your gain.
Speaker 1 (14:25):
I just want to remind everyone. I speaking with doctor
Justine Webber. Her book is called How the Fuck Do
I Heal From This? So let's get into this. I mean,
as you're talking, I'm thinking, how do you how do
you get through this? How do you heal from this?
First of all, how did you get to the point
(14:45):
where you're like I want to write this book or
I need to write this book, or I got to
write this book or was that like.
Speaker 2 (14:54):
Sure, yeah, that was I mean, I guess I can
call myself an author, but I don't really feel like
an author because this will probably be like my one
and only It was definitely interesting. I guess initially what
sparked my interest in writing a book is when I
launched my coaching business. I literally was like, I have
(15:15):
no idea. This could be a huge flop. It could
be a big failure, but you know what, I am
so passionate about this that I almost was like, I
don't even care. I'm going to try even if this
is a failure. Because it was a huge financial investment
and I started a social media account and I didn't
know anything about it, and so I had to hire
(15:36):
a company to help me like filming and so forth.
But I grew so quickly, like so quickly. I mean
I started off with like four hundred followers and within
a really short period of time, you know, you know,
it went from like ten thousand, you know, to fifteen thousand,
and so I realized at that point, like how many
(15:57):
people are wondering about this and suffering. And I was like,
I just have to find a way to really connect
with so many more people that are in this place
of like what the f what is this? I'm so confused,
I'm so broken. I feel so like debilitated, like what
(16:20):
is this? And so that's when I made the decision.
I'm like, you know, I just need to get a
book out there to help even more people, even you know,
if they're not following me.
Speaker 1 (16:33):
Well, let's talk about the book a little bit. What
did you want to accomplish through the book. And who's
it for.
Speaker 2 (16:41):
It's really for a client. I primarily work with women.
I do work with men as well, And the interesting
thing is that the men that I've worked with, who
are usually like going through divorce or leaving their ex
wives or wives, are oftentimes so much work than the
(17:02):
female clients I work with in their ex husbands, just
like they're almost like psychopaths. They are just out to destroy.
This one client I worked with, he ended up like
living in his car for a while because and I
mean this man was like a very successful businessman and
his wife just completely destroyed him in every way. It
(17:26):
was so sad. But to your point, so who is
the message really? The typical audience would be a woman
who has been in a long term relationship or a
man and they are at this place where they're coming
they're leaving, and they are recognizing like this is bad,
(17:47):
this is abusive, I need to get out. But they're
in this place like they don't know what it is
and they want like help to kind of give them
some guidance and handholding along the way of you know,
identifying what this is. I have some chapters or a
(18:09):
chapter on trauma, you know, because that's a really big
piece and the why this is psychological abuse and why
it changes the brain. I mean, there's research that shows
that it changes the size of you know, the hippocampus,
the prefrontal cortex, the you know, amygdala and everything. And
so to be able to put words to experiences that
(18:30):
have been so painful and you've been living in this
fog for such a long time is so incredibly powerful.
I mean, I'm living proof and I'm a shrink, and
so for me to stay as long as I did,
you know, when I already knew my mom you know,
was like narcissistic and everything. It just really speaks to
(18:54):
It doesn't make you stupid, you know, there's nothing about that.
It just speaks to how confusing these relationships are when
you're in it, and how it can truly make you
feel like you're living in a fog where you just
absolutely cannot see things clearly. And then once you you know,
because that's another piece is when you're in relationships like that,
(19:16):
they tend to like isolate you, and so you lose
your capacity of having any sounding board or anybody that
is going to foster that sense of reality. And clarity
for you, which is really what you need. So oftentimes
when you leave that environment, that's where you can start
(19:37):
unpacking all of this and beginning to rebuild the self.
Speaker 1 (19:45):
So this is very much and correct me if I'm
wrong here. Psychological abuse absolutely trauma, the trauma that comes
from that. And unlike physical abuse, I mean even physical abuse,
people who are victimized with physical abuse, we often hear that,
(20:06):
you know, they tend to stay or can stay in
that relationship. But here there's a psychological abuse that just
sounds tormenting. It sounds just incredibly suffocating and harmful. My gosh.
So enmeshment healing, let's talk about these things. What is
(20:33):
enmeshment here in this context?
Speaker 2 (20:36):
So in measurement, there's a few categories that I've you know,
realized with enmeshment. There's en meshment with narcissistic people, like
if you have a narcissistic parent and you know, and
meshment is essentially where there's no boundaries in a relationship.
And essentially when a parent uses h child to serve
(21:01):
their emotional needs. That's why this is incredibly abusive. So
you lose this self essentially, and so this is very
much in narcissistic dynamics. Uh, this is very much again malicious,
it's calculated. I do believe that they kind of they
probably don't know the terms, but they have that awareness
(21:23):
of like what they're doing because they're they are all
they're cohersive controllers. All narcissistic people are cohersive controllers, which
is expands the realm of like not just physical or sexual,
it's everything. It's psychological, it's gas lighting, it's manipulating, it's intimidating,
(21:45):
it's instilling fear, it's you know, where the you know,
it's about dominating and how overpowering someone else. And so
for the victim who is being controlled like this, you know,
they're oftentimes broken and it's debilitating it they oftentimes just
have this like dread. I mean, it's just so horrific.
(22:07):
So for narcissistic people it is different. I do think
it is malicious. However, there are other categories of people
who form and meshed relationships with their children and they
really are unaware and it's really innocent, like they're not
trying to you know, they don't know what they're doing,
(22:30):
I guess, is what I'm saying. You really don't know
what they're doing. They believe very much. I've talked to
a bunch of these parents. They are so close with
their son and they just have this great relationship and
they're so close and they share each other everything. They
really believe that they're a good parent. But and mesh
Men is truly like this child serves a job when
(22:53):
you like birth them, and as they grow older, their
job is their role. They have a duty and obligation
to meet your needs of validation, you know, intimacy, connection,
you know, you know, ego fulfillment, you know, you know,
(23:16):
a sense of purpose in life. And so the child
just does not have a self. It like merges. There's
no boundaries, there's no autonomy, there's no independence at all.
It's incredibly sad and destructive.
Speaker 1 (23:34):
Especially for a young kid who grows up not knowing
any better. This sounds even more debilitating when it happens
for a young kid.
Speaker 2 (23:41):
Right, absolutely, I like I noticed these parents, like some
of the typical kind of traits are like you know,
they are just overbearing with their childs, like they are
overly protective. They are like the mom where they're at
(24:04):
every single sports game, you know, drop them off, pick
them up. You know, they're like the pta mom and
they're coming into the classroom and putting on parties. So
can you see how like to the outside world it
can be very confusing for child because you probably have
a teacher who's like, oh my gosh, your mom is
so sweets you so much, she's such a good mom.
(24:24):
But it is very much embedded. It literally is like
this smothering of you. It very much is embedded of
like you serve my needs. And so this child is
like a friend, you know, sarahates spouse. I'm sure you've
heard of that term. You know, they are the friend,
(24:45):
the sister, the therapist, the husband of the mom, and
it's like that for the rest of their life. It's
so incredibly sad. But I've also seen a lot of
like sexualizing too, where you know, the mom will sexualize
the son, and then the son because their job and
(25:06):
role is to serve the mom, they will give the
mom like the sexualized attention that she's really wanting. And
so I see this in like a few different categories
where maybe there's a mom who does not have a
husband for whatever reason, either he died, they got a divorce,
he's not in the picture. Research shows that only children
(25:31):
have a much higher chance of this forming. When they're
only children, or even if she's married to the husband
or the dad, they just don't have really a connected relationship.
Either he's got physical problems or just something's wrong where
there's no connection in intimacy and attachment, and so this
(25:53):
son becomes that replacement. And so these kids, it's just
so incredibly said. So I typically get calls from wives
actually who are married to men like this, who have
this enmeshed inappropriate relationship with their mom, and as you
can expect, it interferes in the marriage because the mom
(26:15):
is incredibly jealous, she really does. She finds this wife
a threat where it's like, you're taking my son away,
And so it causes so many problems in a marriage
where you know, at some point you really do have
to choose like your mom or your wife. And it
(26:35):
becomes so complicated because these sons have been drowning in guilt, obligation,
you know, duty, and these moms are so manipulating where
it's like if you try to send about, you know,
try to set a boundary to distance yourself, it's like,
how dare you you know, it's met with rage and anger.
(26:57):
I've done everything for you.
Speaker 1 (26:59):
I have.
Speaker 2 (26:59):
I gave up a career for you. I was at
every single baseball game of yours. How dare you for
treating me like this? And can you see how damaging
this is? That is not the job of parents. When
you decide to have a child, Your job is to
provide unconditional and positive regard for this child, to create
(27:21):
a sense of safety where the child eventually forms independence, autonomy, separateness,
separate values, likes and dislikes. It is so damaging when
you take that from them.
Speaker 1 (27:36):
God, So let's kind of shift gears here as we
kind of wind down. Who do you work with? You
work with clients, you said a lot of women. Do
you also work with therapists? Do you provide coaching to
them people who want to learn more about this or
what not?
Speaker 2 (27:56):
Yet? I mean, that is something I'd like to That's
another piece of my coaching business that I would like
to begin doing is probably doing those online courses and
working with more professionals. But I don't have that yet.
Therapists definitely need to be trained in this. I have
just had heard the most horrific stories from clients of
(28:19):
terrible information that the therapist has said to them, which
has just contributed to more of the you know, being
a victim and everything. And so yeah, that is something
that I would like to get into next Okay.
Speaker 1 (28:34):
But for example, if there are a lot of therapists
will listen to this, maybe they are not qualified, maybe
they can send clients your way for coaching, I.
Speaker 2 (28:46):
Would absolutely do, just like you know, supervision or you
know like that.
Speaker 1 (28:52):
Absolutely okay, So what's the best way for people to
reach out and learn more about what you're doing?
Speaker 2 (28:57):
So I have so my coaching business website is doctor
Justin Weber dot com. My private practice website is Sereneshift
dot com. That's the one in California. And then I'm
on all of the social media platforms. I'm on TikTok, Instagram,
and what's the other one.
Speaker 1 (29:18):
In Facebook and book Yeah, okay, I.
Speaker 2 (29:21):
Mainly use Instagram. So you can always reach out to
me like direct message on Facebook and Instagram. They can
call me too, my phone numbers. I mean a lot
of people I'm really casual about that call my work.
All It's fine, Okay, that's on my website too.
Speaker 1 (29:42):
All right, we'll have that linked up here at the
show notes page at the Trauma Therapist podcast dot com. Justine, awesome,
intense love to have you back because I know there's
so much to talk about, but I really appreciate you
being here and sharing your story. I know this is
gonna be helpful for a lot of the people and
(30:02):
look forward to talking to with you again.
Speaker 2 (30:04):
Thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (30:05):
All right, take care, m M M
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