July 21, 2025 • 29 mins
Karen Goslin has a Master of Social Work from the University of Toronto and in 1998, she founded Karen Goslin & Associates.
Karen is passionate about guiding people toward transformation, helping them process depression, anxiety, conflicts, addiction, chronic illness, loss and trauma as invitations to change, and ultimately discover clear purpose and limitless potential.
Karen is the author of Yellow Paint: Learning to Live Again in which she talks about The KG Method and how to take the first step toward personal accountability, healing, and transformation.
Her work draws on evidence based therapeutic approaches and creates safe, deep spaces that enable the straight talk necessary for powerful accountability and meaningful healing.
Now, Karen is sharing her insights with a broader audience. She speaks to us with compassion and insight, developed from her personal and professional experiences.
In This Episode
http://www.karengoslinspeaks.com/
The Trauma Therapist Podcast
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Karen is passionate about guiding people toward transformation, helping them process depression, anxiety, conflicts, addiction, chronic illness, loss and trauma as invitations to change, and ultimately discover clear purpose and limitless potential.
Karen is the author of Yellow Paint: Learning to Live Again in which she talks about The KG Method and how to take the first step toward personal accountability, healing, and transformation.
Her work draws on evidence based therapeutic approaches and creates safe, deep spaces that enable the straight talk necessary for powerful accountability and meaningful healing.
Now, Karen is sharing her insights with a broader audience. She speaks to us with compassion and insight, developed from her personal and professional experiences.
In This Episode
http://www.karengoslinspeaks.com/
The Trauma Therapist Podcast
Join my email list and receive podcast updates and other news: https://bit.ly/3LuAG2i
Listen to all Trauma Therapist Podcast episodes here: https://bit.ly/3VRNy8z
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-trauma-therapist--5739761/support.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to the Trauma THEAPIS podcast. My name is Ga Macpherson.
I interview incredible people who dedicated their lives to helping
those who have been impacted by trauma.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
Here we go.
Speaker 1 (00:11):
Five four, three, two and one, our folks, welcome back
to the podcast. Very excited to have as Mica C today.
Karen Goslin, Karen, welcome.
Speaker 3 (00:21):
Thank you so much for having me guy, good to
see you.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
Awesome So.
Speaker 1 (00:25):
Karen is a Master of Social Work from the University
of Toronto. In nineteen ninety eight, she founded Karen Goslin
and Associates. She's passionate about guiding people towards transformation, helping
them process depression, anxiety, addiction, and trauma as invitations to
change and ultimately discover clear purpose and limitless potential. Her
(00:47):
work draws on evidence based therapeutic approaches and create safe,
deep spaces, then enable the straight talk necessary for powerful
accountability and meaningful healing. Is called yellow paint Learning to Livegan,
We're gonna be talking about that. Karen, Welcome to the podcast.
Speaker 3 (01:05):
Thanks so much. What a great introduction. It's always nice
when you hear your whole professional life summarized.
Speaker 1 (01:13):
And Yellow Paint I can't help but notice the yellow
bloom on it. I know.
Speaker 2 (01:19):
There's a theme.
Speaker 1 (01:20):
I don't know if that's accidental or purposeful or not.
But yeah, before we get into everything, share with the
listeners where you're from originally and where you are currently.
Speaker 3 (01:30):
Sure, So, I'm based in Toronto, Ontario, Canada, and I've
been in the city here since nineteen eighty seven, grew
up just about forty five minutes west of here in
the city ever since, and where our in person office
is located. But we serve clients all over the world.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
So let's start out with.
Speaker 1 (01:52):
Getting some background onto how you got into the field
in the first place.
Speaker 3 (01:57):
Sure, that's a question I often get asked and has
answered a little bit in the book that I just wrote.
But I knew, honestly, from the age of fourteen, what
I wanted to do, and I know that's unusual. I
had felt loved in my family. We had a very
stable family life, but I always yearned to have deeper conversations.
(02:22):
I always hated the chit chat. I was always looking
for something more meaningful, and I kind of stood out
in my family, to be honest about that. So when
my oldest cousin's wife. When I learned that she was
a social worker, I think I was in like grade nine.
I was like fourteen, and I spent my March break
(02:42):
job shadowing with her, and she was a child welfare
worker in the inner city streets here in Toronto. And
I think most of the people in my life at
that time thought, Okay, she's going to go she's not
going to like what she say, she's not going to
enjoy yourself, she's going to change her mind. I think
my dad wanted me to be like a fashion designer
or something. But honestly, I spent the week with her,
(03:03):
and I'm like, this is exactly what I want to do,
and I just built my resume honestly, from the age
of fourteen onward.
Speaker 1 (03:11):
Well, what about it just ignited you?
Speaker 2 (03:14):
What was it?
Speaker 3 (03:16):
I loved the depth of the conversation, that it was
beyond the superficial, beyond the surface, and we talked about
what was really happening, what we really feel and think,
what's inspiring us, what is causing us pain or challenging us,
(03:37):
and what do we want to do about it. I
just felt like I was operating in a little bit
of a different frequency than my family, and I just
it was the depth and the intensity. And I'm still
like that. I still still like that, Like at the
end of my day, my friends will be like, oh
my gosh, you saw like eight clients today, you must
(03:58):
be exhausted. I'm like, no, I'm energized. Like this depth
energizes me.
Speaker 1 (04:05):
And you felt, or obviously you felt that you could
deal with people, or talk to people, or engage people
in this on that.
Speaker 3 (04:19):
Level, Yeah, I felt like it was innate from myself,
like it just was a natural instinct for me. And
so then I think it started from that place, Okay,
And then it was like when I thought about what
I wanted to do in my life as a career,
it was almost like a no brainer that if I
(04:40):
could spend every day having meaningful conversations with people, that
that would make me happy. And then as I got
closer into the work, through my experience, through my education,
then I knew, beyond child welfare, I wanted to be
an actual therapist, that what if these intents conversations weren't
(05:02):
just like feeling good in the moment, but actually made
a difference in people's lives.
Speaker 1 (05:07):
So you go and pursue becoming a therapist. How to
talk to us a little bit about that. It's one
thing to think about it in theoretic in theory, right,
it's another thing to do it. What was it like
when you started doing it?
Speaker 3 (05:26):
Honestly, it was challenging. It was challenging because even though
I wanted it, everybody around me, especially in the family
because I was the youngest of three, all of the
members of my family were not talking on that level.
So it's almost like I had to go back and
like relearn a new way to think and feel and talk.
(05:50):
So it was challenging. I won't lie, but I just
pursued and persisted, got surrounded myself with very good super
vision and consultation so that I could, you know, like
learn that skill. It was like I knew in my
heart that's what I wanted, but I really did have
(06:11):
to do a deeper dive to acquire the skills that
were going to be necessary for me to be useful.
Speaker 2 (06:19):
So it's one thing to.
Speaker 1 (06:23):
You know, go to school, become a therapist, become a
social worker, and just as you describe it, it's another
thing to actually start doing the work. Now as a
social worker, you know, and I've worked with social workers
and had them as colleagues. They get in there, You're
working a lot of times with people who are in
the system, who've experienced trauma. What was that like for you?
Speaker 3 (06:47):
Well, I spent ten years after getting my graduate degree
working specifically in the area of interpersonal sexual abuse, and
I came onto the team as a victim's specialists because
of the work I had previously done in child welfare
and I had special skills to work with children. But
(07:09):
I think it's also my personality that I'm, you know,
kind of bold and I have a kind of stronger
presence that the team immediately thought I would be a
good fit to work with the sexual offenders. So honestly,
for ten years I worked mostly in that field sexual offenders.
Speaker 2 (07:28):
And let me just stop you for there for a second.
They thought, because you.
Speaker 1 (07:33):
Had a kind of a bold personality, that you what,
you would be intimidated by sexual offenders.
Speaker 3 (07:41):
And I wouldn't be that I wouldn't be right, Yeah, sorry,
I misheard you. Yeah right. I think they thought, yeah,
that I wouldn't be intimidated, that I could sit in
the work without fear, without intimidation and be able to
be straight about what was going on and what had
(08:05):
happened and where they needed to take responsibility, but do
it in a way that also was like from that
deep intensity of understanding that they were broken humans and
understanding where they had come from in their life. So
it was that balance of like deep compassion for the
(08:27):
human experience, while at the same time not being afraid
to offer the challenges that they actually needed.
Speaker 2 (08:35):
So were they right? And were they correct? In a sense?
Speaker 3 (08:38):
They were?
Speaker 1 (08:40):
So what what gave you or how did you develop
that ability to do that to sit in that work
with that population.
Speaker 3 (08:52):
Well, And this is this is a big paradigm I
work with, and I'm sure a lot of the therapists
that you interview have. I just believe that you know,
humans want to do the right thing, but are broken,
that none of our lives are perfect, and it's in
(09:12):
those disruptions in our developmental stages of life that we
have distorted views either of ourself or others, or life
or love. And when I sat and developed strong relationships,
even with those who had done horrific things, I could
(09:32):
begin to create that narrative and draw the timeline out
about what had happened to them that led them to
this place that they could convince themselves, you know, that
they could do what they did, and it didn't give
them a pass. But that compassion of knowing their story
and what led up to what they did allowed me
(09:53):
to develop a very good rapport with those clients.
Speaker 1 (09:58):
But that's okay, that's what you did. My question was,
how the hell did you get there in the first place?
Speaker 2 (10:07):
How does how do you?
Speaker 1 (10:08):
Where did that come from? Your ability to sit there
in the first place. Did you just think and believe
that you could do it. Maybe you didn't know at
first how to do it, but did you just had
this innate sense, intuitive sense that you could do it
or wanted.
Speaker 2 (10:26):
To do it well.
Speaker 3 (10:28):
Although although my family, my immediate family, lacked that kind
of that emotional frequency, I had a very strong relationship
with my paternal grandmother and this is written about in
the book, and as well, I have a very strong
work ethic from my Ukrainian heritage on my mother's side.
(10:49):
I know that's where my healthy self comes from. I
may have had like bold personality traits you know, at birth,
but when I interviewed my parents for the book, I
had this you know, formulation at first, so I was
going to write a book about like the strong, you know,
female figures in our family, and like, I'm desperate to
make the details fit. But then I'm like, Okay, after
(11:12):
a couple of interviews with my dad and especially about
my Ukrainian background, I kept hearing things that were different.
So I said, are you telling me? And I'm actually
not like my maternal grandmother, I'm more like my maternal grandfather.
And he goes hands down. And I think that chapter
in the book is called Grits and Guts, and I think, like,
(11:35):
as I took a step back in my own personal
life about what where my resilience had come from and
how that fit with what I learned more about my
grandfather through interviews for the book, it just makes sense
because he was very persistent. He was you know, had
a very strong work ethic, like I said, and does
(11:57):
didn't give up. And I think that also helped me
in the work because although I was yearning for this deep, emotional,
you know, frequency and conversation, I think at that time,
especially with the offenders, I'm not going to give up, right,
I'm going to keep going at something in a way
that gives them full permission to be open, right, But
(12:20):
I've got this, like you know, this, this deep yearning
behind me.
Speaker 1 (12:25):
So let's talk about the book again. The book is
called Yellow Paint Learning to Live Again. When was this
book born?
Speaker 3 (12:33):
Hmmm, Oh my gosh, nobody's asked me that used that
word to ask me that, I think. I honestly had
the first chapter in my head for about ten years,
and then about five years later, I shared my story
with my daughter, who was twenty one at the time,
and thought I could be inspired by my story because
she'd seen me kind of on the outside right, strong,
(12:57):
you know, ambitious, successful. But when I told actually told
the real story honestly, guy, she looked at me and said, mom,
you need to write this book.
Speaker 2 (13:06):
So I.
Speaker 3 (13:09):
Had the chapter. I already kind of had the idea,
but when I got that feedback from her, I thought, Okay,
I really am onto something. So I connected with somebody
who I thought could help me with the book. But honestly,
even though I was brave and bold, I wasn't sure
I had what it took to actually write a book.
And what The year I turned sixty, I flipped over
(13:31):
the calendar page to January and went, okay, I keep
telling this woman I want to meet with her about
writing the book, Like, if you don't do it this year,
you're just not going to do it at all. So
I made a promise to myself to meet with her
by the end of January to hash out the framework
for the book or to.
Speaker 2 (13:49):
Let it go.
Speaker 3 (13:49):
Like maybe maybe in the end it wasn't meant to
be so born ten years ago, you know, kind of
nailed a little bit quicker in five years later, and
then picked up the pen in twenty twenty three.
Speaker 1 (14:02):
But what did you What did you want to say
in the book?
Speaker 2 (14:07):
Why did you want to write it?
Speaker 3 (14:09):
Yeah, so I knew you were going to ask me
this question. So I did some deeper thinking earlier today,
So three important pieces in the private practice I developed.
I've created a methodology I started to call accountable therapy,
right that goes beyond kind of evidence based treatment approaches
(14:33):
for the various mental health issues that I look at
with clients. But it requires bold honesty, not just from
the client but from the therapist. It's a very structured
approach right from the first appointment onward. And thirdly, you know,
there are specific tools and strategies. So when I floated
(14:56):
my ideas for the book. The first editor said to me,
please and that in the book, because that's important. As
I continue to work my way through the book. The
second piece that came to me was that I wanted
to share with the readers this concept I called invitations
to grow, that when the past intersects with the present, right,
(15:19):
there's these disruptions from our earlier life that cause reenactments
in the present. It's an opportunity for us to heal
a wound, right to do something for ourselves. But that
if we stumble over that or we don't take the invitation,
then you know, we will get another invitation. There will
(15:40):
be another event that comes that knocks at our door,
and usually it gets increasingly worse or more painful. And
the third part was that I really wanted to be
vulnerable in the book, to share my own story, and
somebody recently, a reader told me that that's actually what
(16:00):
made the book. And so maybe that's the most important part.
That what I told the story of my own life
when I hit rock bottom and how that demonstrated the
accountable therapy method, and I shared my invitations to grow
that yes, God increasingly worse over time, and more painful.
(16:21):
But how I ultimately accepted that last invitation, Well.
Speaker 1 (16:26):
That as far as I'm concerned for us right now,
that's where the story is.
Speaker 2 (16:30):
What was this rock bottom you hit?
Speaker 3 (16:33):
Sure? So I called it my seventh invitation because when
I mapped out my history, I could map out six,
you know, preceding events that were turning points in my
life that were trying to tell me something about how
to live differently, My seventh invitation was the accumulation of
wrestling that I was doing with control and self worth.
(16:53):
And I had lost people, I had been betrayed. I
got a sexually transmitted illness, I got an autoimmune illness,
I lost a pregnancy because of my health issues. My
career was interrupted for a number of years, and then
my husband walked out. And that's where actually the yellow
(17:17):
paint came from because and this is described in the
first chapter of the book, but I think for so
many years I had kind of rode the aggressive side
of the wound. So when I felt powerless or not
good enough, I would fight too hard, or I would
work too hard or do too much. And of course,
as with any of our reenactments, all that did was
(17:40):
sabotage me further and just opened up the possibility that
I would get another invitation to grow until I finally
stood still. So on that day, my husband, my ex husband,
had come to take our three year old daughter on
her annual camping trip. It was like a hot June afternoon.
I was standing on our driveway and they just left.
(18:04):
And I never felt more alone than I did in
that moment, And that was my bottom. I'm like, you
know what, you know, I've lost my health, I've lost relationships,
I've lost my career. Like everything just compounded for me,
and my yellow paint moment was, honestly, I hit rock bottom.
(18:24):
I was going to give up. I'm like, I can't
do this anymore. Like it really felt unbearable. And I
don't think I'm different. I think a lot of us
have those rock bottom moments where it's like, can I
even bear this? I went through my checklist to say, okay,
let's just say I give up, right, call it quits.
And I went through a list of what I had
(18:45):
coming up that week, and I had a room in
my house that needed painting, and when I looked at
my calendar, I know, this is kind of bizarre. I
realized my parents right, God loved them. We're coming the
next morning to paint that room yellow. And that was
(19:06):
my turning point. But the message to the reader is
about thinking about the fact that we all have yellow
paint moments. We hit rock bottom. It comes after a
series of invitations to grow that we ignore, or reject
or argue with. But what if we could turn things around?
(19:28):
What's about the power that happens when you stop and
you open the invitation. And for me, honestly, guy, that
changed the direction of my entire life.
Speaker 2 (19:39):
Where did you let me hold on a second?
Speaker 1 (19:40):
Where did you get that inspiration to be able to
do that? Because these invitations you're talking about many of
us consider to be tragedies, trauma, annoyances, frustrations. It's a
step of insight in and of itself to look at
(20:01):
them or reframe that as an invitation. So where did
you get that ability or insight to do that?
Speaker 3 (20:09):
Honestly, it came from the power of not giving up
when that's all I wanted to do, and when I
don't know what happened over the night, but when I
woke up in the morning and my parents arrived, it
was like Okay, here's the deal. If I didn't give
up when I was at my very worst, nothing else
could hurt me, And instead of just kind of like
(20:31):
superficially all right, let's just paint these walls, it was like, Okay,
I have got to stop. I am pushing everybody that
means anything to me away. I'm getting physically ill, Like
what how much more do I need to get in
my way? So I dug deep and that's where I
(20:52):
and what I do with clients when I'm sure your
listeners as well, is this idea of how the hell
did I get here? And when I mapped it out,
I could see how I was wrestling with control and
self worth and a riding the aggressive side of that
wound that was working against me. But in the moment,
(21:14):
it came from if at the very worst I didn't
give up, nothing more can hurt me.
Speaker 1 (21:20):
Let me just remind every When I'm speaking with Karen Goslin,
her book is called Yellow Paint Learning to Live Again.
Speaker 2 (21:29):
Part of the book you were.
Speaker 1 (21:31):
Talking about deals with this accountability and honesty and you said,
not just from the client, but from the therapist as well,
where did that come about? And what is that what
do you mean when you say that?
Speaker 3 (21:46):
What I mean is that it's a directive therapeutic approach
right from the very beginning. What I say in the book,
I don't tell people what they want to hear. I
tell people what they need to hear. And yeah, exactly
(22:07):
what does that mean?
Speaker 2 (22:09):
What does that look like?
Speaker 3 (22:10):
That means that I don't sugarcoat it. It's always from
a place of loves. No bs, that's right, I should
put that on my on my door, right, no bs.
And but it's always from a place of love and compassion.
And from that paradigm I was speaking about a few
minutes ago that it's like, where did we break? You know,
what's going on for us? So it rests heavily on
(22:33):
that non judgmental paradigm. But listen, I take my job seriously.
If somebody is going to hire me because they want
to make a difference in their life, I owe it
to them to tell them how they're getting in their
own way. And most of the time people will say,
you nailed it. That's exactly what I needed to hear.
(22:54):
We live in an aware society. Most of my clients
have some ideas of what they're doing, and even why
they're doing it. They just don't know how to put
it all together. At the end of the first appointment,
as part of the accountable Therapy method, I create a formulation.
It's an explanation about what's happened in their life, how
they got to where they did, why they're sabotaging themselves,
(23:17):
how they're sabotaging themselves, and what they need to do differently.
And most of the time people will feel refreshed by that.
More than anything. I don't want therapeutic conversations to just
float away, right and for clients to feel good for
the first couple of minutes. I get that description a
(23:37):
lot from people that people invest a lot in therapy
with very nice, very skilled therapists, but maybe are afraid
to tell clients the truth. It's refreshing. We launched our
book in Hollywood at the Oscars in February, and one
actor said to me, based on what you're telling me,
why don't you call this interrupt with love? Because I
(24:00):
I think I said something in that conversation where I
may even and I'll say to clients if I interrupt,
it's because I want to be useful to you. Sure,
And clients have to come in and vent and tell
their story. But he said, why don't you call it
interrupt with love?
Speaker 2 (24:16):
I like that.
Speaker 1 (24:18):
So who's the book form?
Speaker 3 (24:23):
You're asking great questions? I love it. The book is
for anybody. So the dedications at the beginning for to
a number of people, but for people who find themselves
in deafening dark places where they may be hitting rock bottom,
not knowing what to do about it, confused about their life,
(24:44):
confused about why they keep coming up against the same
things in their life, whether it's their health, their relationships,
their career, their education right, or maybe they have some
ideas but they don't know what to do about it.
So they're looking for a vulnerable story that is meaningful,
that demonstrates the method. Every chapter is a song, Every
(25:09):
chapter is its own story. Readers can pick and choose
the chapters that are most important for them, whether it's
about health or divorce, or friendships or family. Some readers
will read the whole book, But if you're looking for
specific tools to use in your life, specific invitations. Every
(25:31):
chapter ends with very important invitations to the reader to think,
we do have a workbook coming and an etherapy program coming.
But the initial book invites the reader to hear my story,
learn about accountable therapy, and apply some of the techniques
and tools that are suggested and described in the book.
Speaker 1 (25:54):
I love this idea about accountable therapy. I love the
the willingness to to to to be honest in that way.
Speaker 2 (26:10):
Was that? How did you develop that? How did you
start to do that?
Speaker 1 (26:15):
Was that easy for you to start to do that?
Speaker 3 (26:18):
It was? It was it just it was like naturally,
I think, yeah, my jig, my gig from the Ukraine
is smiling down on me. He was a no punch
person and that's when my dad said, yeah, don't don't
worry about this like female lineage. What's more important is
you were like him. He was a nobs kind of guy.
(26:41):
I I appreciate it when people are honest with me,
you know, I hate when people are like I don't
like I understand fake and pretending. It's part of a
coping mechanism. But but like when you when you pull
off that layer, like as a human being, don't we
appreciate it more when somebody comes with true love and
(27:02):
trust and says, this is how you're affecting me or
this is how I feel when this happened. Then we
get down to a real level, right, And I just
had that in my own life. In my own my
friends will would tell you, you know, we just I just
like to have those real conversations. But if somebody is
(27:24):
coming to me, like ninety nine percent of the people
that show up at my door are at their own
version of their own seventh invitation, they're losing somewhere in
their life. So don't I owe it to them to
tell them the truth?
Speaker 1 (27:42):
Yeah, I mean there's something very refreshing of that reminds
me of the actor jud hirsh who played a therapist
in the movie Ordinary People, which as an old older movie,
but I don't know if you're familiar with it. He is.
He plays his therapist who is just so amazing. I
(28:04):
mean he's kind of describing he does what you're describing.
He's like so refreshing and so honest, yeah and real,
and you can't help but be blown away by it
because it's it's kind of feels like what you're saying.
We all need that, we need that wake up call.
Speaker 2 (28:27):
And again it's.
Speaker 1 (28:29):
Done with respect and compassion.
Speaker 2 (28:32):
Of course, it is all right.
Speaker 1 (28:35):
So as we kind of wind down here, how do
people learn more about you? How can people learn more
about the book and the accountability method?
Speaker 3 (28:44):
That's right great. So our private practice is at Karen
karenrsw dot com. The book website is Karen Goslinspeaks dot
com and there's a lot of information on that website
about where I've come from and my own evolution and
what the book is about. We are on Amazon in
(29:06):
Canada where Amazon International. We have soft cover, hardcover and
kindle versions. A audiobook will be launched in September at
the Emmys, so I'll be working on that all summer
because i want to dictate the book. We have a
Spotify playlist, there's a Yellow Paint playlist. The lyrics are
chosen specifically to invite the reader into each chapter, and
(29:30):
we're on all the channels.
Speaker 1 (29:32):
Awesome, awesome, Karen, so inspiring. Love to have you back
at a later date. Thank you so much for being here.
Speaker 3 (29:39):
Oh thanks so much for having me. I loved your
questions today.
Speaker 1 (29:43):
All right, take care, bye bye
Welcome to the Trauma THEAPIS podcast. My name is Ga Macpherson.
I interview incredible people who dedicated their lives to helping
those who have been impacted by trauma.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
Here we go.
Speaker 1 (00:11):
Five four, three, two and one, our folks, welcome back
to the podcast. Very excited to have as Mica C today.
Karen Goslin, Karen, welcome.
Speaker 3 (00:21):
Thank you so much for having me guy, good to
see you.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
Awesome So.
Speaker 1 (00:25):
Karen is a Master of Social Work from the University
of Toronto. In nineteen ninety eight, she founded Karen Goslin
and Associates. She's passionate about guiding people towards transformation, helping
them process depression, anxiety, addiction, and trauma as invitations to
change and ultimately discover clear purpose and limitless potential. Her
(00:47):
work draws on evidence based therapeutic approaches and create safe,
deep spaces, then enable the straight talk necessary for powerful
accountability and meaningful healing. Is called yellow paint Learning to Livegan,
We're gonna be talking about that. Karen, Welcome to the podcast.
Speaker 3 (01:05):
Thanks so much. What a great introduction. It's always nice
when you hear your whole professional life summarized.
Speaker 1 (01:13):
And Yellow Paint I can't help but notice the yellow
bloom on it. I know.
Speaker 2 (01:19):
There's a theme.
Speaker 1 (01:20):
I don't know if that's accidental or purposeful or not.
But yeah, before we get into everything, share with the
listeners where you're from originally and where you are currently.
Speaker 3 (01:30):
Sure, So, I'm based in Toronto, Ontario, Canada, and I've
been in the city here since nineteen eighty seven, grew
up just about forty five minutes west of here in
the city ever since, and where our in person office
is located. But we serve clients all over the world.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
So let's start out with.
Speaker 1 (01:52):
Getting some background onto how you got into the field
in the first place.
Speaker 3 (01:57):
Sure, that's a question I often get asked and has
answered a little bit in the book that I just wrote.
But I knew, honestly, from the age of fourteen, what
I wanted to do, and I know that's unusual. I
had felt loved in my family. We had a very
stable family life, but I always yearned to have deeper conversations.
(02:22):
I always hated the chit chat. I was always looking
for something more meaningful, and I kind of stood out
in my family, to be honest about that. So when
my oldest cousin's wife. When I learned that she was
a social worker, I think I was in like grade nine.
I was like fourteen, and I spent my March break
(02:42):
job shadowing with her, and she was a child welfare
worker in the inner city streets here in Toronto. And
I think most of the people in my life at
that time thought, Okay, she's going to go she's not
going to like what she say, she's not going to
enjoy yourself, she's going to change her mind. I think
my dad wanted me to be like a fashion designer
or something. But honestly, I spent the week with her,
(03:03):
and I'm like, this is exactly what I want to do,
and I just built my resume honestly, from the age
of fourteen onward.
Speaker 1 (03:11):
Well, what about it just ignited you?
Speaker 2 (03:14):
What was it?
Speaker 3 (03:16):
I loved the depth of the conversation, that it was
beyond the superficial, beyond the surface, and we talked about
what was really happening, what we really feel and think,
what's inspiring us, what is causing us pain or challenging us,
(03:37):
and what do we want to do about it. I
just felt like I was operating in a little bit
of a different frequency than my family, and I just
it was the depth and the intensity. And I'm still
like that. I still still like that, Like at the
end of my day, my friends will be like, oh
my gosh, you saw like eight clients today, you must
(03:58):
be exhausted. I'm like, no, I'm energized. Like this depth
energizes me.
Speaker 1 (04:05):
And you felt, or obviously you felt that you could
deal with people, or talk to people, or engage people
in this on that.
Speaker 3 (04:19):
Level, Yeah, I felt like it was innate from myself,
like it just was a natural instinct for me. And
so then I think it started from that place, Okay,
And then it was like when I thought about what
I wanted to do in my life as a career,
it was almost like a no brainer that if I
(04:40):
could spend every day having meaningful conversations with people, that
that would make me happy. And then as I got
closer into the work, through my experience, through my education,
then I knew, beyond child welfare, I wanted to be
an actual therapist, that what if these intents conversations weren't
(05:02):
just like feeling good in the moment, but actually made
a difference in people's lives.
Speaker 1 (05:07):
So you go and pursue becoming a therapist. How to
talk to us a little bit about that. It's one
thing to think about it in theoretic in theory, right,
it's another thing to do it. What was it like
when you started doing it?
Speaker 3 (05:26):
Honestly, it was challenging. It was challenging because even though
I wanted it, everybody around me, especially in the family
because I was the youngest of three, all of the
members of my family were not talking on that level.
So it's almost like I had to go back and
like relearn a new way to think and feel and talk.
(05:50):
So it was challenging. I won't lie, but I just
pursued and persisted, got surrounded myself with very good super
vision and consultation so that I could, you know, like
learn that skill. It was like I knew in my
heart that's what I wanted, but I really did have
(06:11):
to do a deeper dive to acquire the skills that
were going to be necessary for me to be useful.
Speaker 2 (06:19):
So it's one thing to.
Speaker 1 (06:23):
You know, go to school, become a therapist, become a
social worker, and just as you describe it, it's another
thing to actually start doing the work. Now as a
social worker, you know, and I've worked with social workers
and had them as colleagues. They get in there, You're
working a lot of times with people who are in
the system, who've experienced trauma. What was that like for you?
Speaker 3 (06:47):
Well, I spent ten years after getting my graduate degree
working specifically in the area of interpersonal sexual abuse, and
I came onto the team as a victim's specialists because
of the work I had previously done in child welfare
and I had special skills to work with children. But
(07:09):
I think it's also my personality that I'm, you know,
kind of bold and I have a kind of stronger
presence that the team immediately thought I would be a
good fit to work with the sexual offenders. So honestly,
for ten years I worked mostly in that field sexual offenders.
Speaker 2 (07:28):
And let me just stop you for there for a second.
They thought, because you.
Speaker 1 (07:33):
Had a kind of a bold personality, that you what,
you would be intimidated by sexual offenders.
Speaker 3 (07:41):
And I wouldn't be that I wouldn't be right, Yeah, sorry,
I misheard you. Yeah right. I think they thought, yeah,
that I wouldn't be intimidated, that I could sit in
the work without fear, without intimidation and be able to
be straight about what was going on and what had
(08:05):
happened and where they needed to take responsibility, but do
it in a way that also was like from that
deep intensity of understanding that they were broken humans and
understanding where they had come from in their life. So
it was that balance of like deep compassion for the
(08:27):
human experience, while at the same time not being afraid
to offer the challenges that they actually needed.
Speaker 2 (08:35):
So were they right? And were they correct? In a sense?
Speaker 3 (08:38):
They were?
Speaker 1 (08:40):
So what what gave you or how did you develop
that ability to do that to sit in that work
with that population.
Speaker 3 (08:52):
Well, And this is this is a big paradigm I
work with, and I'm sure a lot of the therapists
that you interview have. I just believe that you know,
humans want to do the right thing, but are broken,
that none of our lives are perfect, and it's in
(09:12):
those disruptions in our developmental stages of life that we
have distorted views either of ourself or others, or life
or love. And when I sat and developed strong relationships,
even with those who had done horrific things, I could
(09:32):
begin to create that narrative and draw the timeline out
about what had happened to them that led them to
this place that they could convince themselves, you know, that
they could do what they did, and it didn't give
them a pass. But that compassion of knowing their story
and what led up to what they did allowed me
(09:53):
to develop a very good rapport with those clients.
Speaker 1 (09:58):
But that's okay, that's what you did. My question was,
how the hell did you get there in the first place?
Speaker 2 (10:07):
How does how do you?
Speaker 1 (10:08):
Where did that come from? Your ability to sit there
in the first place. Did you just think and believe
that you could do it. Maybe you didn't know at
first how to do it, but did you just had
this innate sense, intuitive sense that you could do it
or wanted.
Speaker 2 (10:26):
To do it well.
Speaker 3 (10:28):
Although although my family, my immediate family, lacked that kind
of that emotional frequency, I had a very strong relationship
with my paternal grandmother and this is written about in
the book, and as well, I have a very strong
work ethic from my Ukrainian heritage on my mother's side.
(10:49):
I know that's where my healthy self comes from. I
may have had like bold personality traits you know, at birth,
but when I interviewed my parents for the book, I
had this you know, formulation at first, so I was
going to write a book about like the strong, you know,
female figures in our family, and like, I'm desperate to
make the details fit. But then I'm like, Okay, after
(11:12):
a couple of interviews with my dad and especially about
my Ukrainian background, I kept hearing things that were different.
So I said, are you telling me? And I'm actually
not like my maternal grandmother, I'm more like my maternal grandfather.
And he goes hands down. And I think that chapter
in the book is called Grits and Guts, and I think, like,
(11:35):
as I took a step back in my own personal
life about what where my resilience had come from and
how that fit with what I learned more about my
grandfather through interviews for the book, it just makes sense
because he was very persistent. He was you know, had
a very strong work ethic, like I said, and does
(11:57):
didn't give up. And I think that also helped me
in the work because although I was yearning for this deep, emotional,
you know, frequency and conversation, I think at that time,
especially with the offenders, I'm not going to give up, right,
I'm going to keep going at something in a way
that gives them full permission to be open, right, But
(12:20):
I've got this, like you know, this, this deep yearning
behind me.
Speaker 1 (12:25):
So let's talk about the book again. The book is
called Yellow Paint Learning to Live Again. When was this
book born?
Speaker 3 (12:33):
Hmmm, Oh my gosh, nobody's asked me that used that
word to ask me that, I think. I honestly had
the first chapter in my head for about ten years,
and then about five years later, I shared my story
with my daughter, who was twenty one at the time,
and thought I could be inspired by my story because
she'd seen me kind of on the outside right, strong,
(12:57):
you know, ambitious, successful. But when I told actually told
the real story honestly, guy, she looked at me and said, mom,
you need to write this book.
Speaker 2 (13:06):
So I.
Speaker 3 (13:09):
Had the chapter. I already kind of had the idea,
but when I got that feedback from her, I thought, Okay,
I really am onto something. So I connected with somebody
who I thought could help me with the book. But honestly,
even though I was brave and bold, I wasn't sure
I had what it took to actually write a book.
And what The year I turned sixty, I flipped over
(13:31):
the calendar page to January and went, okay, I keep
telling this woman I want to meet with her about
writing the book, Like, if you don't do it this year,
you're just not going to do it at all. So
I made a promise to myself to meet with her
by the end of January to hash out the framework
for the book or to.
Speaker 2 (13:49):
Let it go.
Speaker 3 (13:49):
Like maybe maybe in the end it wasn't meant to
be so born ten years ago, you know, kind of
nailed a little bit quicker in five years later, and
then picked up the pen in twenty twenty three.
Speaker 1 (14:02):
But what did you What did you want to say
in the book?
Speaker 2 (14:07):
Why did you want to write it?
Speaker 3 (14:09):
Yeah, so I knew you were going to ask me
this question. So I did some deeper thinking earlier today,
So three important pieces in the private practice I developed.
I've created a methodology I started to call accountable therapy,
right that goes beyond kind of evidence based treatment approaches
(14:33):
for the various mental health issues that I look at
with clients. But it requires bold honesty, not just from
the client but from the therapist. It's a very structured
approach right from the first appointment onward. And thirdly, you know,
there are specific tools and strategies. So when I floated
(14:56):
my ideas for the book. The first editor said to me,
please and that in the book, because that's important. As
I continue to work my way through the book. The
second piece that came to me was that I wanted
to share with the readers this concept I called invitations
to grow, that when the past intersects with the present, right,
(15:19):
there's these disruptions from our earlier life that cause reenactments
in the present. It's an opportunity for us to heal
a wound, right to do something for ourselves. But that
if we stumble over that or we don't take the invitation,
then you know, we will get another invitation. There will
(15:40):
be another event that comes that knocks at our door,
and usually it gets increasingly worse or more painful. And
the third part was that I really wanted to be
vulnerable in the book, to share my own story, and
somebody recently, a reader told me that that's actually what
(16:00):
made the book. And so maybe that's the most important part.
That what I told the story of my own life
when I hit rock bottom and how that demonstrated the
accountable therapy method, and I shared my invitations to grow
that yes, God increasingly worse over time, and more painful.
(16:21):
But how I ultimately accepted that last invitation, Well.
Speaker 1 (16:26):
That as far as I'm concerned for us right now,
that's where the story is.
Speaker 2 (16:30):
What was this rock bottom you hit?
Speaker 3 (16:33):
Sure? So I called it my seventh invitation because when
I mapped out my history, I could map out six,
you know, preceding events that were turning points in my
life that were trying to tell me something about how
to live differently, My seventh invitation was the accumulation of
wrestling that I was doing with control and self worth.
(16:53):
And I had lost people, I had been betrayed. I
got a sexually transmitted illness, I got an autoimmune illness,
I lost a pregnancy because of my health issues. My
career was interrupted for a number of years, and then
my husband walked out. And that's where actually the yellow
(17:17):
paint came from because and this is described in the
first chapter of the book, but I think for so
many years I had kind of rode the aggressive side
of the wound. So when I felt powerless or not
good enough, I would fight too hard, or I would
work too hard or do too much. And of course,
as with any of our reenactments, all that did was
(17:40):
sabotage me further and just opened up the possibility that
I would get another invitation to grow until I finally
stood still. So on that day, my husband, my ex husband,
had come to take our three year old daughter on
her annual camping trip. It was like a hot June afternoon.
I was standing on our driveway and they just left.
(18:04):
And I never felt more alone than I did in
that moment, And that was my bottom. I'm like, you
know what, you know, I've lost my health, I've lost relationships,
I've lost my career. Like everything just compounded for me,
and my yellow paint moment was, honestly, I hit rock bottom.
(18:24):
I was going to give up. I'm like, I can't
do this anymore. Like it really felt unbearable. And I
don't think I'm different. I think a lot of us
have those rock bottom moments where it's like, can I
even bear this? I went through my checklist to say, okay,
let's just say I give up, right, call it quits.
And I went through a list of what I had
(18:45):
coming up that week, and I had a room in
my house that needed painting, and when I looked at
my calendar, I know, this is kind of bizarre. I
realized my parents right, God loved them. We're coming the
next morning to paint that room yellow. And that was
(19:06):
my turning point. But the message to the reader is
about thinking about the fact that we all have yellow
paint moments. We hit rock bottom. It comes after a
series of invitations to grow that we ignore, or reject
or argue with. But what if we could turn things around?
(19:28):
What's about the power that happens when you stop and
you open the invitation. And for me, honestly, guy, that
changed the direction of my entire life.
Speaker 2 (19:39):
Where did you let me hold on a second?
Speaker 1 (19:40):
Where did you get that inspiration to be able to
do that? Because these invitations you're talking about many of
us consider to be tragedies, trauma, annoyances, frustrations. It's a
step of insight in and of itself to look at
(20:01):
them or reframe that as an invitation. So where did
you get that ability or insight to do that?
Speaker 3 (20:09):
Honestly, it came from the power of not giving up
when that's all I wanted to do, and when I
don't know what happened over the night, but when I
woke up in the morning and my parents arrived, it
was like Okay, here's the deal. If I didn't give
up when I was at my very worst, nothing else
could hurt me, And instead of just kind of like
(20:31):
superficially all right, let's just paint these walls, it was like, Okay,
I have got to stop. I am pushing everybody that
means anything to me away. I'm getting physically ill, Like
what how much more do I need to get in
my way? So I dug deep and that's where I
(20:52):
and what I do with clients when I'm sure your
listeners as well, is this idea of how the hell
did I get here? And when I mapped it out,
I could see how I was wrestling with control and
self worth and a riding the aggressive side of that
wound that was working against me. But in the moment,
(21:14):
it came from if at the very worst I didn't
give up, nothing more can hurt me.
Speaker 1 (21:20):
Let me just remind every When I'm speaking with Karen Goslin,
her book is called Yellow Paint Learning to Live Again.
Speaker 2 (21:29):
Part of the book you were.
Speaker 1 (21:31):
Talking about deals with this accountability and honesty and you said,
not just from the client, but from the therapist as well,
where did that come about? And what is that what
do you mean when you say that?
Speaker 3 (21:46):
What I mean is that it's a directive therapeutic approach
right from the very beginning. What I say in the book,
I don't tell people what they want to hear. I
tell people what they need to hear. And yeah, exactly
(22:07):
what does that mean?
Speaker 2 (22:09):
What does that look like?
Speaker 3 (22:10):
That means that I don't sugarcoat it. It's always from
a place of loves. No bs, that's right, I should
put that on my on my door, right, no bs.
And but it's always from a place of love and compassion.
And from that paradigm I was speaking about a few
minutes ago that it's like, where did we break? You know,
what's going on for us? So it rests heavily on
(22:33):
that non judgmental paradigm. But listen, I take my job seriously.
If somebody is going to hire me because they want
to make a difference in their life, I owe it
to them to tell them how they're getting in their
own way. And most of the time people will say,
you nailed it. That's exactly what I needed to hear.
(22:54):
We live in an aware society. Most of my clients
have some ideas of what they're doing, and even why
they're doing it. They just don't know how to put
it all together. At the end of the first appointment,
as part of the accountable Therapy method, I create a formulation.
It's an explanation about what's happened in their life, how
they got to where they did, why they're sabotaging themselves,
(23:17):
how they're sabotaging themselves, and what they need to do differently.
And most of the time people will feel refreshed by that.
More than anything. I don't want therapeutic conversations to just
float away, right and for clients to feel good for
the first couple of minutes. I get that description a
(23:37):
lot from people that people invest a lot in therapy
with very nice, very skilled therapists, but maybe are afraid
to tell clients the truth. It's refreshing. We launched our
book in Hollywood at the Oscars in February, and one
actor said to me, based on what you're telling me,
why don't you call this interrupt with love? Because I
(24:00):
I think I said something in that conversation where I
may even and I'll say to clients if I interrupt,
it's because I want to be useful to you. Sure,
And clients have to come in and vent and tell
their story. But he said, why don't you call it
interrupt with love?
Speaker 2 (24:16):
I like that.
Speaker 1 (24:18):
So who's the book form?
Speaker 3 (24:23):
You're asking great questions? I love it. The book is
for anybody. So the dedications at the beginning for to
a number of people, but for people who find themselves
in deafening dark places where they may be hitting rock bottom,
not knowing what to do about it, confused about their life,
(24:44):
confused about why they keep coming up against the same
things in their life, whether it's their health, their relationships,
their career, their education right, or maybe they have some
ideas but they don't know what to do about it.
So they're looking for a vulnerable story that is meaningful,
that demonstrates the method. Every chapter is a song, Every
(25:09):
chapter is its own story. Readers can pick and choose
the chapters that are most important for them, whether it's
about health or divorce, or friendships or family. Some readers
will read the whole book, But if you're looking for
specific tools to use in your life, specific invitations. Every
(25:31):
chapter ends with very important invitations to the reader to think,
we do have a workbook coming and an etherapy program coming.
But the initial book invites the reader to hear my story,
learn about accountable therapy, and apply some of the techniques
and tools that are suggested and described in the book.
Speaker 1 (25:54):
I love this idea about accountable therapy. I love the
the willingness to to to to be honest in that way.
Speaker 2 (26:10):
Was that? How did you develop that? How did you
start to do that?
Speaker 1 (26:15):
Was that easy for you to start to do that?
Speaker 3 (26:18):
It was? It was it just it was like naturally,
I think, yeah, my jig, my gig from the Ukraine
is smiling down on me. He was a no punch
person and that's when my dad said, yeah, don't don't
worry about this like female lineage. What's more important is
you were like him. He was a nobs kind of guy.
(26:41):
I I appreciate it when people are honest with me,
you know, I hate when people are like I don't
like I understand fake and pretending. It's part of a
coping mechanism. But but like when you when you pull
off that layer, like as a human being, don't we
appreciate it more when somebody comes with true love and
(27:02):
trust and says, this is how you're affecting me or
this is how I feel when this happened. Then we
get down to a real level, right, And I just
had that in my own life. In my own my
friends will would tell you, you know, we just I just
like to have those real conversations. But if somebody is
(27:24):
coming to me, like ninety nine percent of the people
that show up at my door are at their own
version of their own seventh invitation, they're losing somewhere in
their life. So don't I owe it to them to
tell them the truth?
Speaker 1 (27:42):
Yeah, I mean there's something very refreshing of that reminds
me of the actor jud hirsh who played a therapist
in the movie Ordinary People, which as an old older movie,
but I don't know if you're familiar with it. He is.
He plays his therapist who is just so amazing. I
(28:04):
mean he's kind of describing he does what you're describing.
He's like so refreshing and so honest, yeah and real,
and you can't help but be blown away by it
because it's it's kind of feels like what you're saying.
We all need that, we need that wake up call.
Speaker 2 (28:27):
And again it's.
Speaker 1 (28:29):
Done with respect and compassion.
Speaker 2 (28:32):
Of course, it is all right.
Speaker 1 (28:35):
So as we kind of wind down here, how do
people learn more about you? How can people learn more
about the book and the accountability method?
Speaker 3 (28:44):
That's right great. So our private practice is at Karen
karenrsw dot com. The book website is Karen Goslinspeaks dot
com and there's a lot of information on that website
about where I've come from and my own evolution and
what the book is about. We are on Amazon in
(29:06):
Canada where Amazon International. We have soft cover, hardcover and
kindle versions. A audiobook will be launched in September at
the Emmys, so I'll be working on that all summer
because i want to dictate the book. We have a
Spotify playlist, there's a Yellow Paint playlist. The lyrics are
chosen specifically to invite the reader into each chapter, and
(29:30):
we're on all the channels.
Speaker 1 (29:32):
Awesome, awesome, Karen, so inspiring. Love to have you back
at a later date. Thank you so much for being here.
Speaker 3 (29:39):
Oh thanks so much for having me. I loved your
questions today.
Speaker 1 (29:43):
All right, take care, bye bye
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