September 18, 2025 • 31 mins
Jessica is a trauma-informed physiotherapist, educator and author of The Nervous System Reset, who specializes in nervous system regulation.
She holds a master's degree in health science and is an internationally recognized nervous system educator and TEDx speaker.
Her science-backed approach to trauma and burnout is helping to reshape how people experience healing. Through her Nervous System School, Jessica teaches practical tools that support long-term healing, resilience, and emotional well-being.
In This Episode
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-trauma-therapist--5739761/support.
You can learn more about what I do here:
The Trauma Therapist Newsletter: celebrates the people and voices in the mental health profession. And it's free! Check it out here: https://bit.ly/4jGBeSa
———
If you’d like to support The Trauma Therapist Podcast and the work I do you can do that here with a monthly donation of $5, $7, or $10: Donate to The Trauma Therapist Podcast.
Click here to join my email list and receive podcast updates and other news.
She holds a master's degree in health science and is an internationally recognized nervous system educator and TEDx speaker.
Her science-backed approach to trauma and burnout is helping to reshape how people experience healing. Through her Nervous System School, Jessica teaches practical tools that support long-term healing, resilience, and emotional well-being.
In This Episode
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-trauma-therapist--5739761/support.
You can learn more about what I do here:
The Trauma Therapist Newsletter: celebrates the people and voices in the mental health profession. And it's free! Check it out here: https://bit.ly/4jGBeSa
———
If you’d like to support The Trauma Therapist Podcast and the work I do you can do that here with a monthly donation of $5, $7, or $10: Donate to The Trauma Therapist Podcast.
Click here to join my email list and receive podcast updates and other news.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to the Trauma Theverst Podcast. My name is Got Macpherson.
I interview incredible people who dedicated their lives to helping
those who have been impacted by trauma. Here we go,
So five four, three, two and one, our folks, welcome
back to the podcast. Super excited to have as my
guest today, Jessica Maguire. Jessica, welcome, Thanks Scott.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
I'm really excited to take you to chat with you.
Speaker 1 (00:25):
Appreciate that. So. Jessica is a trauma informed physiotherapist, educator,
and author of the book The Nervous System Reset. She
also specializes in nervous system regulation. She old a master's
degree in health science and is an internationally recognized nervous
system educator and ted X speaker. Her science backed approach
to trauma and burnout is helping to reshape how people
(00:47):
experience healing. Through her Nervousism School, Jessica teaches practical tools
that support long term healing, resilience, and emotional well being.
Bought a bang A little bit about you in a
nutshell before we get going, share with the listeners where
you're from originally and where you are currently.
Speaker 2 (01:07):
SO. I grew up in Tasmania in Australia and at
the moment, I mean Nearbyron Bay in Australia.
Speaker 1 (01:14):
Okay, awesome, awesome, So let's dive in here. How the
heck did all this start for you?
Speaker 2 (01:23):
It's a great question. But if we went back to
twenty seventeen, I'd been working in my physiotherapy clinic and
I had, you know, like a really full case of
patients that I would see who had a lot of
chronic symptoms that wouldn't get better.
Speaker 1 (01:41):
And I always just pardon me, so physio physical therapist, Like,
well we would call it okay, physical.
Speaker 2 (01:48):
Yeah, So working as a physical therapist, and I was
really like had a big caseload of patients every day,
but a lot of them with chronic health issues. And
I knew there was this link of the physical with
the emotional, but I didn't have a framework that I
could use for myself to understand this really clearly and
(02:11):
work within, you know, knowing what modality to use. But
also I couldn't really teach clients about these or patients
about this without almost telling them, well, your symptoms are
all in your head, you know. So I felt like
I was working with what was above the water of
an iceberg with the pain, but what was really going
(02:33):
on was much much deeper, and that's where I wanted
to work.
Speaker 1 (02:37):
Why what gave you that thought? Why did you think that?
Speaker 2 (02:43):
I thought it for a long time by seeing how
my patients would present with a flare up of an
old injury, particularly with something like they'd been going through
a period of stress, but also the initial injury had
healed and there would be ongoing pain. But then there
(03:04):
would almost be this consistent presentation of somebody who might
have been anxious, they had insomnia, their gut wasn't well,
and they had more pain, and then it could be
the other way of somebody who was more collapsed, exhausted,
chronic fatigue. And it just became this very clear pattern
(03:26):
to me of some people it's like they're stuck on
on and some people it's like they're stuck on off,
And I could do all the treatment on their back,
but I'm not really getting to the root cause. So
I knew that I needed to work at this intersection.
And then there was more and more science coming out
on the neuro immune system, which I always have been
(03:47):
really fascinated by the interconnectedness of systems. So I decided
to close down my clinic and take a gear to
go into study. So I had that all set in place,
and then three weeks before I was due to fly
sha the US, actually I lost my beautiful older brother
(04:09):
Sam to suicide, and so it was a stage that
really threw me into this regulation and so I learned
to walk the talk if you like. It was a
time where I was really shocked by it, but I
also knew that the best thing I could do to
(04:29):
help myself was to actually go and immerse myself in
this world. And so yeah, I took twelve months to
do that. And then when I came back to Australia,
I started with workshops for my patients of how to
look at nervous system regulation in the vagus nerve. And
then my husband said to me, you need to take
(04:52):
this online, and you know, as a health professional, I
was like, it's not going to work online, but he
was right. So we I started with a small masterclass
and then an eight week program and now I have
a certification course for I te each other health practitioners
how to bring nervous system regulation into practice.
Speaker 1 (05:13):
Well, first of all, thank you for sharing that and
so sorry to hear about your brother when you were
when you started studying the nervous system. I'm curious about
what it was like for you when you started learning
(05:34):
things that made you go oh, okay, oh, yes it
was I'm sure there were times like that too.
Speaker 2 (05:43):
Yeah, it was a bit like coming home. So I
knew intuitively that something was missing from my work, like
I'd always felt that as this missing piece, and it
frustrated me because my work as a clinician is to
figure things out and I like doing that. I love
going how do I get this to work? So when
(06:06):
I looked at this way of seeing the nervous system,
you know, we've had the old fight or flight, rest
and digest to actually starting to go, oh, we have
a state of a mobilization and really understanding a mobilization.
That was really helpful for me. And then once I
started to see the connection with things like the vagus
(06:28):
nerve and inflammation, the neural immune system, it's like you
see with a new set of eyes. And so rather
than looking at like, well, my job is I work
with the body and somebody else works with the brain,
or it could be vice versa. It's you know, no
profession owns the nervous system. It's really for all coaches
(06:53):
and clinicians to lean into that. And I see that.
For me, I stopped looking at where I had to say, okay,
I need to stop working here with someone to being like, well, okay,
this person may be seeing somebody for their gut, somebody
getting taking medication to sleep, you know, somewhat for anxiety,
(07:15):
and me for pain. But if I can get to
the root cause of that, that's going to help all
of these other things. And we're not We stop taking
that siloed approach. So incredibly empowering once I realized how
much the nervous system was orchestrating with the other systems,
and so yeah, it really felt like coming home. And
(07:36):
I'd done a lot of neuroscience because I'd worked with
patients who'd had a stroke, and so I was fully
aware of looking at well, if this happens in the brain,
this is what we'd see. And that applies a lot
to this work too. So there is a part from
the body, but there's also the neuroscience, and then there's
(07:58):
also neuroplastice, which is the exciting part of how the
nervous system heals so I think bringing that all together
for me was like it made it whole instead of
feeling like I had to work with these isolated bits
and pieces, and it was really satisfying.
Speaker 1 (08:17):
Mm hmm. It sounds to me like it was empowering. Also,
yes for you before. Just as an aside here for
our listeners, the vegas nerve. We talk about it, people
give us the nutshell? Why is what is this vegas
nerve we everyone talks about.
Speaker 2 (08:36):
I know, we talk about it like we could just
hack it then we're never going to feel anxious again,
which would be so lovely, wouldn't it. But the reality
is it's actually more like an ecosystem of its own.
So you know, when we talk about the vegas nerve,
it's not one little nerves. It's ginormous and it has
different receptors for different roles. But I like to think
(09:00):
of it in three parts. So if we said the
first branch runs from the brain stem, which is like
if you put your your hand down the back of
your head and when inwards from there, that's where our
brain stem is and it goes to our heart, and
so that plays a role in helping us cope with
and recover from stress, so really important with emotional regulation.
(09:24):
And then the other branch, rather than going to the heart,
it goes under our diaphragm, spreads out like a vine,
touches almost every organ in our gut and goes right
down to the colon. And then the other branch goes
from our heart up to our face. And so this
plays a role in communication connection. This is where we
(09:47):
speak a lot about coregulation too, and so you can
see it's got many many different roles from regulating our emotions,
balancing our organs, but also how we connect with others.
And this is why, like I was saying, we need
more of an interconnected approach to helping people that look
(10:09):
at all of these things rather than you know, simply
one thing like pain.
Speaker 1 (10:16):
So okay, so how do you work now with a
client with the understanding that everyone's different, But give us
an idea of how you utilize this information, this knowledge
you have to work with people.
Speaker 2 (10:34):
Yeah, it's a great question. I thrive with frameworks, and
I think many clinicians do because we take we have
so much information that we need a way to move
between that sure, and so I think it all begins
with understanding the different states that somebody might be presenting
with what it looks like. How we hear that from
(10:57):
their language, because most people that come in to see
us are not saying, hey, I'm disregulated.
Speaker 1 (11:07):
You know my vaguest nervous off.
Speaker 2 (11:11):
I've been through chronic stress and trauma, so this is
why I'm here. That most people don't even know that
that's what's going on, and especially people who are in
dorsal vaguel shutdown or they've had that immobilization where they're
not in touch with their body at all. They're probably numb,
and so they don't even realize that that's the state
(11:33):
that they're in. So first thing is really it all
begins with what state is somebody in. The reason that
we need to do that is based on the principles
of neuroplasticity. Specificity is really important. So what state someone's
in will determine how we work with them. And we'll
(11:54):
give us an example.
Speaker 1 (11:56):
Patter, give us an example.
Speaker 2 (11:58):
Okay, so for somebody who is in that dorsal vagel shutdown,
immobilized flat, and let's say we go, okay, you're gonna
do one to two breathing. Now that person no. One
to two breathing is a blanket exercise that we hear
a lot for nervous system regulation. For that person, we
(12:20):
are likely to immobilize them even more and so they're
likely to have more flatness, feeling even worse. So it's
really about us not only being able to support our
clients the best we can, but also not doing any harm.
And I think there's a little bit of an oversimplification
(12:41):
with nervous system resources, as though we can just everybody
tried this one thing and will feel better. But I
don't believe in that at all. I think it all
starts with what state is somebody in to start with.
So it's both looking at the bottom up its resources,
but it's also the education that is extremely important that
(13:05):
we provide. So for instance, let's say we have this
person who comes in and they're collapsed, apathetic, and maybe
they've been through an experience where you discover it was
highly stressful and they froze in that time. So using
education that teaches somebody there is a state of a
(13:26):
mobilization of your nervous system that you moved into, and
it's not your fault that you didn't run away. It's
not your fault that you didn't fight back. That on
its own can be enough to take out this We
call it the second arrow, you know, like you get
shot for the first time within the bad experience, but
then you shoot yourself again for how you responded. And
(13:49):
so it's a little bit like if they take that.
Speaker 1 (13:52):
Pattern, I've never heard of that analogy. That's pretty cool
like that.
Speaker 2 (13:56):
I like it too, and I think that's what we're
seeing is a lot of people with shame, with blame
coming in and it's perpetuating that cycle. So we like
to say education can lead to regulation if it's delivered
at the right time, when somebody is in a state
where they have their brain ready for learning, prime for learning,
(14:20):
which is not always the case. So I begin with
education to speak a language that shared about the nervous system.
But it would take me sometimes a while to figure out, well,
what state is somebody in? And I think this is
how we need to look at it. You know, if
I was to diagnose someone with low back pain, I
(14:42):
would listen and do a subjective assessment, and then I
would take what I thought might be going on and
see with objective data if that was true or not.
So I approach the nervous system in the same way.
And I do education or I use bottom up resources
(15:05):
as well, which could range from anything to the breath,
to touch to movement depending on what I was looking at,
but predominantly it's regulating the sensory systems that people need.
Speaker 1 (15:20):
So are you working entirely within the capacity of a physiotherapist.
Speaker 2 (15:26):
From what I use in clinic. Yes, but also my
training has been in you know, trauma as well, so
I have a lot of other skills I can lean into.
But I mean as a physiotherapist, the sensory systems are
our bread and butter, so so it is neuroplasticity. So
(15:52):
technically yes, and we and we also do cardio respiratory,
which is the breath. In my first degree, I didn't
realize it, but I was technically looking at the vagus
nerve through electro the electric cardiograms. I was doing a
lot of work with people where we actually looked at
the heart. So that was my that was my background before.
(16:14):
But technically all of it falls into that wheelhouse. But
this is a really interesting point for health practitioners where
we are looking at, well, who does own this? I mean,
who's whose scope are we in, and I think it
needs to be everybody's who's working with clinici of clients,
(16:35):
because this is what's walking in the door right right.
Speaker 1 (16:38):
Let me just remind everyone I'm speaking with Jessica McGuire.
Her book is called The Nervous System Reset, and she
specializes in nervous system regulation. So let's talk a little
bit about the book if we can here. Why did
you write it?
Speaker 2 (17:00):
There was a part where I'd been sharing a lot
of information with people online and it was great. I
was just really surprised by how much people could interpret
and understand. And I think as a health practitioner, we
assume that our patients won't understand the complexities, but they
(17:23):
certainly do if it's explained well. And I had quite
over the years, you know, I started doing this in
twenty eighteen, so it was five years of things that
I'd been writing about and sharing and then somebody wrote
reached out to me and said would you like to
(17:44):
write a book? And so I had a conversation with
this publishing house and at the eleventh hour they started
to do the pressure of well, if you don't say yes,
now you're going to miss out. And I don't respond
very well. So it was interesting. I through you know,
(18:07):
how the universe works. I actually met a publisher like
the day before I was Judah Sign and she said,
I think that you can get published with one of
the big five publishing houses and me and my ignorance said,
who are they like, I don't even know. So we
(18:27):
did it properly, and we put a pitch together and
we yeah, put the book out to the world and
we had we did. We published with Pan McMillan in Australia,
Haschet in the US, and then Pan McMillan also through
the UK. So it's been a really exciting time.
Speaker 1 (18:46):
That's amazing. So who's the book for.
Speaker 2 (18:50):
It's really accessible for everybody and that was the challenge
of writing this book because I wanted to speak to
both clinicians and so that anybody could pick it up.
So that's that was that was very challenging for me.
And I was writing it the last part, I think
I was eight months pregnant and it was so hot.
(19:13):
I was I can just remember being, you know, sitting
at my desk writing and then I had these really
puffy ankles and I had to go out into the
swimming pool and just be like, oh this book, Yeah
it was. It was a big test of my own
nervous system. But we finished it off, and yeah, it's
really for anybody, But I think it's not something you
(19:33):
can sit down and just read in one day. The
idea is, you know, you'd work through different chapters of
it and give yourself time to try the tools and
understand the different concepts.
Speaker 1 (19:44):
It feels to me like what you're seeing is obviously
integral for psychotherapists a lot. And from your experience, do
therapists psychotherapists have enough of this information?
Speaker 2 (20:06):
No?
Speaker 1 (20:08):
Okay, I guess one of the first questions that comes
to my mind is why is that just because they're
only taught a certain amount and they're not getting enough? What?
Speaker 2 (20:21):
I think because we've had an intersection, or we've separated
systems like brain and body, we don't we haven't yet
have a really clear way to look at the communication
between the brain and body. And okay, if we take
something like inter reception, okay, am I allowed to get nerdy?
Speaker 1 (20:43):
Here?
Speaker 2 (20:43):
Goough? Because I think this is well please.
Speaker 1 (20:45):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:47):
So inter reception is our eighth sensory system, and it's
how we recognize bodily signals, internal bodily signals, So it's
largely the vagus nerve that carries these messages from the
body up to the brain. If we're looking at the
role of interception, we can say there's two parts to it.
(21:10):
One is it plays a role in our bodily states.
So these sensations, for instance, let's just say, first at
a really basic example, you recognize the sensation of a
dry throat and you might feel a little bit foggy,
and so the brain says something's happening, and then there's
an action. So these sensations drive in action, which is
(21:33):
go and get a drink. We return back to homeostasis.
So that's one way we look at interception. But the
other part is looking at it from the emotional part. Now,
we used to think there was this like one little
part in the brain that was responsible for anger, you know,
it was like one little section. But what we know
(21:55):
now is that it's two or more bodily signals that
come up to the brain, and then the way that
the brain lights up. There's a whole brain experience creates
that emotion, and it's largely the output is largely based
on a prediction so it's incredibly complex but also so fascinating.
(22:23):
And so we're looking at inter reception, this ability to
see how we read bodily signals, how that lights up
in the brain, and then the way that the brain
predicts that is not necessarily something that we stop and
think about. There's a way that we might praise sensations
and say, my heart, something really bad's going to happen,
(22:46):
and we see that in anxiety. But what we see
in people who are depressed is they it's like the
volume is turned down on sensations and they can't hear
them as well. So inter reception is really really fascinating
because that is actually the essence of self regulation. It's
(23:07):
those sensations that drive our actions, and that's what the
emotion is doing. It's saying do something. And so we
may choose an action like I feel completely overwhelmed, I
need a glass of wine. Or we might choose I
feel completely overwhelmed, I need to change my career, I
(23:31):
need to delegate, I need to You know, it can
go so many different ways, and that's how our life
will be different. But I think what's happened is we
are looking at a process that ultimately involves body and brain,
and we're trying to separate it as the brain is
doing this, the body's doing that. But where the modulation
(23:52):
of stress really lies is in that communication between the
body and the brain and then how these networks light up.
And that's really based on experience too.
Speaker 1 (24:04):
Wow, So do you work or how do you work
sharing this information? Do you work with therapists, your workshops
for them, courses for them? What?
Speaker 2 (24:16):
Yeah? So we actually have a Nervous System Certification course
which is a twelve week program for coaches and clinicians
and it really goes through the process, the framework of
doing this step by step.
Speaker 1 (24:32):
And what is someone going to learn? How? Guess the
question is how can they benefit? How's the therapist going
to benefit from this?
Speaker 2 (24:41):
Yeah, it's a great question. It's designed to integrate into
the you know, any practitioners current practice. It's not about
leaving your expertise behind by any means, but it's really
looking at like, Okay, how do I recognize the state
my clients in. Then it's a sequencing framework that takes
(25:02):
that any clinician can use that would look at where
someone's at and what resource you'd apply from a body
based point of view, and then also what education you
would use at that particular point as well to bring
about regulation. So it's all based on bottom up and
top down communication and interventions to build nervous system regulation.
Speaker 1 (25:27):
So and correct me if I'm wrong here. This isn't
necessarily another modality. Rather what almost a foundational education or
information a platform that everything kind.
Speaker 2 (25:42):
Of moves from exactly. And the thing is this is
I believe every clinician needs it because we're not saying, okay,
we step in and only one little small group of
people can use this. We're saying all people have an
autonomic nervous system and are going to come in with things.
(26:04):
We need to be literate in this. And so it's
really how you can use that in your interviews, how
you can buy education. And you know, the beauty of
nervous system work is we don't need to do an
hour of that. We can we can do a lot
in fifteen minutes that can be integrated into our sessions already.
(26:25):
So I really want to empower clinicians to stop that
siloed approach and be able to, you know, say, well,
I can play a role in this interconnected part and
still stay inside my scope, you know, it's that's really
what we're looking to support clinicians with.
Speaker 1 (26:44):
Would you say that you talked about interception and having
that body awareness. Does this interface or how does this
interface with somatic practices?
Speaker 2 (27:01):
Yes, there's some parts to it too, like we are
looking at body base, but it's much more about the sequencing.
So I think we've put an emphasis on the actual
tools themselves, but the timing is more important of what
we deliver. So for somebody who is in freeze and
(27:24):
we know that the broker's area, which is the key
language center of the brain goes offline, we're not going
to try and use education. We're not going to try
and use top down strategies. We're going to look more
at like, okay, how do we work with the sensory
systems here to build regulation. And it's not going to
be interception because that's going to be too overwhelming, so
(27:46):
we need to step back. So it's really about honoring
the neurobiological hierarchy of the nervous system and following that.
And I think there's not something for clinicians yet. It's
been more like here's some resources, let's try these. But
what I've been so inspired to give clinicians is the
(28:08):
complete framework to move between and then have the capacity
to add variations to that based on how a client
is presenting.
Speaker 1 (28:18):
Wow, it sounds invaluable. Once again. The name of the
book is The Nervous System Reset. Speaking with Jessica Maguire. Jessica,
So obviously you've got a lot going on. What are
you working on currently?
Speaker 2 (28:37):
I'm actually going back to university so I've got a research.
Speaker 1 (28:41):
Of course you will.
Speaker 2 (28:43):
I'm a giant nerd. So I actually had a meeting
with my supervisor yesterday and I am looking at transcutaneous
vagus nerve stimulation for nervous system dysregulation. I want to
look at the protocols that will actually work for this
because there's just not enough clinical trials to say how
(29:06):
we apply it. And it's something I've been fascinated with
for years, and we're getting more and more questions around
well can I just pick this device off the shelf
And I'm like, no, you need to have protocols to
help people with this. So yeah, I was like, well,
I'm going to go back and figure out how we
deliver this the best.
Speaker 1 (29:26):
What does that mean? Transcutaneous?
Speaker 2 (29:28):
So it's actually a device that is used to stimulate
the vagus nerve transcutaneous means on the skin, and so
we apply the device to the skin. It was originally
used as an invasive treatment method, so it was actually
installed or surgically put into people with epilepsy to stimulate
(29:52):
the vegus nerve. And at first they were like, oh wow, this,
you know, this stops seizures for a lot of people
or helps manage it. And then what they found was
that people who had depression alongside that as a comorbidity,
it disappeared. So there's a lot for this emotional regulation part.
But we're also seeing it being used really well early
(30:16):
early days for the gut health ibs. We see it
works in neuroplasticity as well. So people with who've had
a stroke, they're applying the stimulation as they're moving and
doing their rehabilitation and it's promoting neuroplasticity, so people are
(30:37):
healing at a much faster rate. So yeah, that's what
I'm working on at the moment.
Speaker 1 (30:42):
Very cool, Very cool. All right, how do people learn
more about you?
Speaker 2 (30:47):
Everything's on my website, which is my name, so Jessica
McGuire dot com.
Speaker 1 (30:52):
Okay, we'll have that linked up here at the show
notes page at the Trauma Therapist podcast dot com. Jessica,
you are. You can feel your passionate about this topic,
which I love. I mean, this is what this is
all about for me. Love talking to you. I'd love
to have you back and congratulations on everything you're doing.
Speaker 2 (31:12):
Thank you, guys. I'd love to come back and chat
with you some more.
Speaker 1 (31:16):
All right, we'll be in touch. Take care,
Welcome to the Trauma Theverst Podcast. My name is Got Macpherson.
I interview incredible people who dedicated their lives to helping
those who have been impacted by trauma. Here we go,
So five four, three, two and one, our folks, welcome
back to the podcast. Super excited to have as my
guest today, Jessica Maguire. Jessica, welcome, Thanks Scott.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
I'm really excited to take you to chat with you.
Speaker 1 (00:25):
Appreciate that. So. Jessica is a trauma informed physiotherapist, educator,
and author of the book The Nervous System Reset. She
also specializes in nervous system regulation. She old a master's
degree in health science and is an internationally recognized nervous
system educator and ted X speaker. Her science backed approach
to trauma and burnout is helping to reshape how people
(00:47):
experience healing. Through her Nervousism School, Jessica teaches practical tools
that support long term healing, resilience, and emotional well being.
Bought a bang A little bit about you in a
nutshell before we get going, share with the listeners where
you're from originally and where you are currently.
Speaker 2 (01:07):
SO. I grew up in Tasmania in Australia and at
the moment, I mean Nearbyron Bay in Australia.
Speaker 1 (01:14):
Okay, awesome, awesome, So let's dive in here. How the
heck did all this start for you?
Speaker 2 (01:23):
It's a great question. But if we went back to
twenty seventeen, I'd been working in my physiotherapy clinic and
I had, you know, like a really full case of
patients that I would see who had a lot of
chronic symptoms that wouldn't get better.
Speaker 1 (01:41):
And I always just pardon me, so physio physical therapist, Like,
well we would call it okay, physical.
Speaker 2 (01:48):
Yeah, So working as a physical therapist, and I was
really like had a big caseload of patients every day,
but a lot of them with chronic health issues. And
I knew there was this link of the physical with
the emotional, but I didn't have a framework that I
could use for myself to understand this really clearly and
(02:11):
work within, you know, knowing what modality to use. But
also I couldn't really teach clients about these or patients
about this without almost telling them, well, your symptoms are
all in your head, you know. So I felt like
I was working with what was above the water of
an iceberg with the pain, but what was really going
(02:33):
on was much much deeper, and that's where I wanted
to work.
Speaker 1 (02:37):
Why what gave you that thought? Why did you think that?
Speaker 2 (02:43):
I thought it for a long time by seeing how
my patients would present with a flare up of an
old injury, particularly with something like they'd been going through
a period of stress, but also the initial injury had
healed and there would be ongoing pain. But then there
(03:04):
would almost be this consistent presentation of somebody who might
have been anxious, they had insomnia, their gut wasn't well,
and they had more pain, and then it could be
the other way of somebody who was more collapsed, exhausted,
chronic fatigue. And it just became this very clear pattern
(03:26):
to me of some people it's like they're stuck on
on and some people it's like they're stuck on off,
And I could do all the treatment on their back,
but I'm not really getting to the root cause. So
I knew that I needed to work at this intersection.
And then there was more and more science coming out
on the neuro immune system, which I always have been
(03:47):
really fascinated by the interconnectedness of systems. So I decided
to close down my clinic and take a gear to
go into study. So I had that all set in place,
and then three weeks before I was due to fly
sha the US, actually I lost my beautiful older brother
(04:09):
Sam to suicide, and so it was a stage that
really threw me into this regulation and so I learned
to walk the talk if you like. It was a
time where I was really shocked by it, but I
also knew that the best thing I could do to
(04:29):
help myself was to actually go and immerse myself in
this world. And so yeah, I took twelve months to
do that. And then when I came back to Australia,
I started with workshops for my patients of how to
look at nervous system regulation in the vagus nerve. And
then my husband said to me, you need to take
(04:52):
this online, and you know, as a health professional, I
was like, it's not going to work online, but he
was right. So we I started with a small masterclass
and then an eight week program and now I have
a certification course for I te each other health practitioners
how to bring nervous system regulation into practice.
Speaker 1 (05:13):
Well, first of all, thank you for sharing that and
so sorry to hear about your brother when you were
when you started studying the nervous system. I'm curious about
what it was like for you when you started learning
(05:34):
things that made you go oh, okay, oh, yes it
was I'm sure there were times like that too.
Speaker 2 (05:43):
Yeah, it was a bit like coming home. So I
knew intuitively that something was missing from my work, like
I'd always felt that as this missing piece, and it
frustrated me because my work as a clinician is to
figure things out and I like doing that. I love
going how do I get this to work? So when
(06:06):
I looked at this way of seeing the nervous system,
you know, we've had the old fight or flight, rest
and digest to actually starting to go, oh, we have
a state of a mobilization and really understanding a mobilization.
That was really helpful for me. And then once I
started to see the connection with things like the vagus
(06:28):
nerve and inflammation, the neural immune system, it's like you
see with a new set of eyes. And so rather
than looking at like, well, my job is I work
with the body and somebody else works with the brain,
or it could be vice versa. It's you know, no
profession owns the nervous system. It's really for all coaches
(06:53):
and clinicians to lean into that. And I see that.
For me, I stopped looking at where I had to say, okay,
I need to stop working here with someone to being like, well, okay,
this person may be seeing somebody for their gut, somebody
getting taking medication to sleep, you know, somewhat for anxiety,
(07:15):
and me for pain. But if I can get to
the root cause of that, that's going to help all
of these other things. And we're not We stop taking
that siloed approach. So incredibly empowering once I realized how
much the nervous system was orchestrating with the other systems,
and so yeah, it really felt like coming home. And
(07:36):
I'd done a lot of neuroscience because I'd worked with
patients who'd had a stroke, and so I was fully
aware of looking at well, if this happens in the brain,
this is what we'd see. And that applies a lot
to this work too. So there is a part from
the body, but there's also the neuroscience, and then there's
(07:58):
also neuroplastice, which is the exciting part of how the
nervous system heals so I think bringing that all together
for me was like it made it whole instead of
feeling like I had to work with these isolated bits
and pieces, and it was really satisfying.
Speaker 1 (08:17):
Mm hmm. It sounds to me like it was empowering. Also,
yes for you before. Just as an aside here for
our listeners, the vegas nerve. We talk about it, people
give us the nutshell? Why is what is this vegas
nerve we everyone talks about.
Speaker 2 (08:36):
I know, we talk about it like we could just
hack it then we're never going to feel anxious again,
which would be so lovely, wouldn't it. But the reality
is it's actually more like an ecosystem of its own.
So you know, when we talk about the vegas nerve,
it's not one little nerves. It's ginormous and it has
different receptors for different roles. But I like to think
(09:00):
of it in three parts. So if we said the
first branch runs from the brain stem, which is like
if you put your your hand down the back of
your head and when inwards from there, that's where our
brain stem is and it goes to our heart, and
so that plays a role in helping us cope with
and recover from stress, so really important with emotional regulation.
(09:24):
And then the other branch, rather than going to the heart,
it goes under our diaphragm, spreads out like a vine,
touches almost every organ in our gut and goes right
down to the colon. And then the other branch goes
from our heart up to our face. And so this
plays a role in communication connection. This is where we
(09:47):
speak a lot about coregulation too, and so you can
see it's got many many different roles from regulating our emotions,
balancing our organs, but also how we connect with others.
And this is why, like I was saying, we need
more of an interconnected approach to helping people that look
(10:09):
at all of these things rather than you know, simply
one thing like pain.
Speaker 1 (10:16):
So okay, so how do you work now with a
client with the understanding that everyone's different, But give us
an idea of how you utilize this information, this knowledge
you have to work with people.
Speaker 2 (10:34):
Yeah, it's a great question. I thrive with frameworks, and
I think many clinicians do because we take we have
so much information that we need a way to move
between that sure, and so I think it all begins
with understanding the different states that somebody might be presenting
with what it looks like. How we hear that from
(10:57):
their language, because most people that come in to see
us are not saying, hey, I'm disregulated.
Speaker 1 (11:07):
You know my vaguest nervous off.
Speaker 2 (11:11):
I've been through chronic stress and trauma, so this is
why I'm here. That most people don't even know that
that's what's going on, and especially people who are in
dorsal vaguel shutdown or they've had that immobilization where they're
not in touch with their body at all. They're probably numb,
and so they don't even realize that that's the state
(11:33):
that they're in. So first thing is really it all
begins with what state is somebody in. The reason that
we need to do that is based on the principles
of neuroplasticity. Specificity is really important. So what state someone's
in will determine how we work with them. And we'll
(11:54):
give us an example.
Speaker 1 (11:56):
Patter, give us an example.
Speaker 2 (11:58):
Okay, so for somebody who is in that dorsal vagel shutdown,
immobilized flat, and let's say we go, okay, you're gonna
do one to two breathing. Now that person no. One
to two breathing is a blanket exercise that we hear
a lot for nervous system regulation. For that person, we
(12:20):
are likely to immobilize them even more and so they're
likely to have more flatness, feeling even worse. So it's
really about us not only being able to support our
clients the best we can, but also not doing any harm.
And I think there's a little bit of an oversimplification
(12:41):
with nervous system resources, as though we can just everybody
tried this one thing and will feel better. But I
don't believe in that at all. I think it all
starts with what state is somebody in to start with.
So it's both looking at the bottom up its resources,
but it's also the education that is extremely important that
(13:05):
we provide. So for instance, let's say we have this
person who comes in and they're collapsed, apathetic, and maybe
they've been through an experience where you discover it was
highly stressful and they froze in that time. So using
education that teaches somebody there is a state of a
(13:26):
mobilization of your nervous system that you moved into, and
it's not your fault that you didn't run away. It's
not your fault that you didn't fight back. That on
its own can be enough to take out this We
call it the second arrow, you know, like you get
shot for the first time within the bad experience, but
then you shoot yourself again for how you responded. And
(13:49):
so it's a little bit like if they take that.
Speaker 1 (13:52):
Pattern, I've never heard of that analogy. That's pretty cool
like that.
Speaker 2 (13:56):
I like it too, and I think that's what we're
seeing is a lot of people with shame, with blame
coming in and it's perpetuating that cycle. So we like
to say education can lead to regulation if it's delivered
at the right time, when somebody is in a state
where they have their brain ready for learning, prime for learning,
(14:20):
which is not always the case. So I begin with
education to speak a language that shared about the nervous system.
But it would take me sometimes a while to figure out, well,
what state is somebody in? And I think this is
how we need to look at it. You know, if
I was to diagnose someone with low back pain, I
(14:42):
would listen and do a subjective assessment, and then I
would take what I thought might be going on and
see with objective data if that was true or not.
So I approach the nervous system in the same way.
And I do education or I use bottom up resources
(15:05):
as well, which could range from anything to the breath,
to touch to movement depending on what I was looking at,
but predominantly it's regulating the sensory systems that people need.
Speaker 1 (15:20):
So are you working entirely within the capacity of a physiotherapist.
Speaker 2 (15:26):
From what I use in clinic. Yes, but also my
training has been in you know, trauma as well, so
I have a lot of other skills I can lean into.
But I mean as a physiotherapist, the sensory systems are
our bread and butter, so so it is neuroplasticity. So
(15:52):
technically yes, and we and we also do cardio respiratory,
which is the breath. In my first degree, I didn't
realize it, but I was technically looking at the vagus
nerve through electro the electric cardiograms. I was doing a
lot of work with people where we actually looked at
the heart. So that was my that was my background before.
(16:14):
But technically all of it falls into that wheelhouse. But
this is a really interesting point for health practitioners where
we are looking at, well, who does own this? I mean,
who's whose scope are we in, and I think it
needs to be everybody's who's working with clinici of clients,
(16:35):
because this is what's walking in the door right right.
Speaker 1 (16:38):
Let me just remind everyone I'm speaking with Jessica McGuire.
Her book is called The Nervous System Reset, and she
specializes in nervous system regulation. So let's talk a little
bit about the book if we can here. Why did
you write it?
Speaker 2 (17:00):
There was a part where I'd been sharing a lot
of information with people online and it was great. I
was just really surprised by how much people could interpret
and understand. And I think as a health practitioner, we
assume that our patients won't understand the complexities, but they
(17:23):
certainly do if it's explained well. And I had quite
over the years, you know, I started doing this in
twenty eighteen, so it was five years of things that
I'd been writing about and sharing and then somebody wrote
reached out to me and said would you like to
(17:44):
write a book? And so I had a conversation with
this publishing house and at the eleventh hour they started
to do the pressure of well, if you don't say yes,
now you're going to miss out. And I don't respond
very well. So it was interesting. I through you know,
(18:07):
how the universe works. I actually met a publisher like
the day before I was Judah Sign and she said,
I think that you can get published with one of
the big five publishing houses and me and my ignorance said,
who are they like, I don't even know. So we
(18:27):
did it properly, and we put a pitch together and
we yeah, put the book out to the world and
we had we did. We published with Pan McMillan in Australia,
Haschet in the US, and then Pan McMillan also through
the UK. So it's been a really exciting time.
Speaker 1 (18:46):
That's amazing. So who's the book for.
Speaker 2 (18:50):
It's really accessible for everybody and that was the challenge
of writing this book because I wanted to speak to
both clinicians and so that anybody could pick it up.
So that's that was that was very challenging for me.
And I was writing it the last part, I think
I was eight months pregnant and it was so hot.
(19:13):
I was I can just remember being, you know, sitting
at my desk writing and then I had these really
puffy ankles and I had to go out into the
swimming pool and just be like, oh this book, Yeah
it was. It was a big test of my own
nervous system. But we finished it off, and yeah, it's
really for anybody, But I think it's not something you
(19:33):
can sit down and just read in one day. The
idea is, you know, you'd work through different chapters of
it and give yourself time to try the tools and
understand the different concepts.
Speaker 1 (19:44):
It feels to me like what you're seeing is obviously
integral for psychotherapists a lot. And from your experience, do
therapists psychotherapists have enough of this information?
Speaker 2 (20:06):
No?
Speaker 1 (20:08):
Okay, I guess one of the first questions that comes
to my mind is why is that just because they're
only taught a certain amount and they're not getting enough? What?
Speaker 2 (20:21):
I think because we've had an intersection, or we've separated
systems like brain and body, we don't we haven't yet
have a really clear way to look at the communication
between the brain and body. And okay, if we take
something like inter reception, okay, am I allowed to get nerdy?
Speaker 1 (20:43):
Here?
Speaker 2 (20:43):
Goough? Because I think this is well please.
Speaker 1 (20:45):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:47):
So inter reception is our eighth sensory system, and it's
how we recognize bodily signals, internal bodily signals, So it's
largely the vagus nerve that carries these messages from the
body up to the brain. If we're looking at the
role of interception, we can say there's two parts to it.
(21:10):
One is it plays a role in our bodily states.
So these sensations, for instance, let's just say, first at
a really basic example, you recognize the sensation of a
dry throat and you might feel a little bit foggy,
and so the brain says something's happening, and then there's
an action. So these sensations drive in action, which is
(21:33):
go and get a drink. We return back to homeostasis.
So that's one way we look at interception. But the
other part is looking at it from the emotional part. Now,
we used to think there was this like one little
part in the brain that was responsible for anger, you know,
it was like one little section. But what we know
(21:55):
now is that it's two or more bodily signals that
come up to the brain, and then the way that
the brain lights up. There's a whole brain experience creates
that emotion, and it's largely the output is largely based
on a prediction so it's incredibly complex but also so fascinating.
(22:23):
And so we're looking at inter reception, this ability to
see how we read bodily signals, how that lights up
in the brain, and then the way that the brain
predicts that is not necessarily something that we stop and
think about. There's a way that we might praise sensations
and say, my heart, something really bad's going to happen,
(22:46):
and we see that in anxiety. But what we see
in people who are depressed is they it's like the
volume is turned down on sensations and they can't hear
them as well. So inter reception is really really fascinating
because that is actually the essence of self regulation. It's
(23:07):
those sensations that drive our actions, and that's what the
emotion is doing. It's saying do something. And so we
may choose an action like I feel completely overwhelmed, I
need a glass of wine. Or we might choose I
feel completely overwhelmed, I need to change my career, I
(23:31):
need to delegate, I need to You know, it can
go so many different ways, and that's how our life
will be different. But I think what's happened is we
are looking at a process that ultimately involves body and brain,
and we're trying to separate it as the brain is
doing this, the body's doing that. But where the modulation
(23:52):
of stress really lies is in that communication between the
body and the brain and then how these networks light up.
And that's really based on experience too.
Speaker 1 (24:04):
Wow, So do you work or how do you work
sharing this information? Do you work with therapists, your workshops
for them, courses for them? What?
Speaker 2 (24:16):
Yeah? So we actually have a Nervous System Certification course
which is a twelve week program for coaches and clinicians
and it really goes through the process, the framework of
doing this step by step.
Speaker 1 (24:32):
And what is someone going to learn? How? Guess the
question is how can they benefit? How's the therapist going
to benefit from this?
Speaker 2 (24:41):
Yeah, it's a great question. It's designed to integrate into
the you know, any practitioners current practice. It's not about
leaving your expertise behind by any means, but it's really
looking at like, Okay, how do I recognize the state
my clients in. Then it's a sequencing framework that takes
(25:02):
that any clinician can use that would look at where
someone's at and what resource you'd apply from a body
based point of view, and then also what education you
would use at that particular point as well to bring
about regulation. So it's all based on bottom up and
top down communication and interventions to build nervous system regulation.
Speaker 1 (25:27):
So and correct me if I'm wrong here. This isn't
necessarily another modality. Rather what almost a foundational education or
information a platform that everything kind.
Speaker 2 (25:42):
Of moves from exactly. And the thing is this is
I believe every clinician needs it because we're not saying, okay,
we step in and only one little small group of
people can use this. We're saying all people have an
autonomic nervous system and are going to come in with things.
(26:04):
We need to be literate in this. And so it's
really how you can use that in your interviews, how
you can buy education. And you know, the beauty of
nervous system work is we don't need to do an
hour of that. We can we can do a lot
in fifteen minutes that can be integrated into our sessions already.
(26:25):
So I really want to empower clinicians to stop that
siloed approach and be able to, you know, say, well,
I can play a role in this interconnected part and
still stay inside my scope, you know, it's that's really
what we're looking to support clinicians with.
Speaker 1 (26:44):
Would you say that you talked about interception and having
that body awareness. Does this interface or how does this
interface with somatic practices?
Speaker 2 (27:01):
Yes, there's some parts to it too, like we are
looking at body base, but it's much more about the sequencing.
So I think we've put an emphasis on the actual
tools themselves, but the timing is more important of what
we deliver. So for somebody who is in freeze and
(27:24):
we know that the broker's area, which is the key
language center of the brain goes offline, we're not going
to try and use education. We're not going to try
and use top down strategies. We're going to look more
at like, okay, how do we work with the sensory
systems here to build regulation. And it's not going to
be interception because that's going to be too overwhelming, so
(27:46):
we need to step back. So it's really about honoring
the neurobiological hierarchy of the nervous system and following that.
And I think there's not something for clinicians yet. It's
been more like here's some resources, let's try these. But
what I've been so inspired to give clinicians is the
(28:08):
complete framework to move between and then have the capacity
to add variations to that based on how a client
is presenting.
Speaker 1 (28:18):
Wow, it sounds invaluable. Once again. The name of the
book is The Nervous System Reset. Speaking with Jessica Maguire. Jessica,
So obviously you've got a lot going on. What are
you working on currently?
Speaker 2 (28:37):
I'm actually going back to university so I've got a research.
Speaker 1 (28:41):
Of course you will.
Speaker 2 (28:43):
I'm a giant nerd. So I actually had a meeting
with my supervisor yesterday and I am looking at transcutaneous
vagus nerve stimulation for nervous system dysregulation. I want to
look at the protocols that will actually work for this
because there's just not enough clinical trials to say how
(29:06):
we apply it. And it's something I've been fascinated with
for years, and we're getting more and more questions around
well can I just pick this device off the shelf
And I'm like, no, you need to have protocols to
help people with this. So yeah, I was like, well,
I'm going to go back and figure out how we
deliver this the best.
Speaker 1 (29:26):
What does that mean? Transcutaneous?
Speaker 2 (29:28):
So it's actually a device that is used to stimulate
the vagus nerve transcutaneous means on the skin, and so
we apply the device to the skin. It was originally
used as an invasive treatment method, so it was actually
installed or surgically put into people with epilepsy to stimulate
(29:52):
the vegus nerve. And at first they were like, oh wow, this,
you know, this stops seizures for a lot of people
or helps manage it. And then what they found was
that people who had depression alongside that as a comorbidity,
it disappeared. So there's a lot for this emotional regulation part.
But we're also seeing it being used really well early
(30:16):
early days for the gut health ibs. We see it
works in neuroplasticity as well. So people with who've had
a stroke, they're applying the stimulation as they're moving and
doing their rehabilitation and it's promoting neuroplasticity, so people are
(30:37):
healing at a much faster rate. So yeah, that's what
I'm working on at the moment.
Speaker 1 (30:42):
Very cool, Very cool. All right, how do people learn
more about you?
Speaker 2 (30:47):
Everything's on my website, which is my name, so Jessica
McGuire dot com.
Speaker 1 (30:52):
Okay, we'll have that linked up here at the show
notes page at the Trauma Therapist podcast dot com. Jessica,
you are. You can feel your passionate about this topic,
which I love. I mean, this is what this is
all about for me. Love talking to you. I'd love
to have you back and congratulations on everything you're doing.
Speaker 2 (31:12):
Thank you, guys. I'd love to come back and chat
with you some more.
Speaker 1 (31:16):
All right, we'll be in touch. Take care,
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.