September 29, 2025 • 39 mins
Robyn D. Walser, PhD, is a clinical psychologist, educator, and internationally recognized expert in trauma and Acceptance and Commitment Therapy (ACT), serving as Assistant Clinical Professor at UC Berkeley, Director of Research at Bay Area Trauma Recovery, and staff member at the National Center for PTSD.
Darrah Westrup, PhD, is a clinical psychologist and ACT expert based in Durango, Colorado, known for her work with complex trauma, international training workshops, and leadership roles at the VA Palo Alto’s women’s mental health and trauma programs.
Today we’re going to be talking about their new book You Are Not Your Trauma: An ACT Guide for Healing from Within, Robyn D. Walser, Ph, and Darrah Westrup, PhD.
In This Episode
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Jane is a clinic management software and EMR that guarantees no surprises. When you sign up, you won’t have to pay for your data import or onboarding support, and there won’t be any set-up fees or contracts that tie you in.See why Jane is the EMR that isn’t too good to be true at Jane App - Practice Management Software for Health & Wellness Practitioners and use code GUY1MO at check out.
Journey Clinical: At Journey Clinical, we partner with licensed mental health professionals across the U.S. to safely bring KAP into practice. Our collaborative care model provides prescribing, monitoring, and medical oversight, so you can stay fully focused on guiding your clients.Visit join.journeyclinical.com/trauma to learn more and receive a month off your membership.
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If you’d like to support The Trauma Therapist Podcast and the work I do you can do that here with a monthly donation of $5, $7, or $10: Donate to The Trauma Therapist Podcast.
Click here to join my email list and receive podcast updates and other news.
Darrah Westrup, PhD, is a clinical psychologist and ACT expert based in Durango, Colorado, known for her work with complex trauma, international training workshops, and leadership roles at the VA Palo Alto’s women’s mental health and trauma programs.
Today we’re going to be talking about their new book You Are Not Your Trauma: An ACT Guide for Healing from Within, Robyn D. Walser, Ph, and Darrah Westrup, PhD.
In This Episode
- Robyn’s website
- Darrah’s website
- @walser.robyn (IG)
- @The Heart of ACT (FB)
- @Robyn D. Walser (LinkedIn)
- @robynwalser.bsky.social
- @Darrah Westrup (FB)
- @Darrah Westrup, Ph.D. (LinkedIn)
- @drdarrah.bsky.social
A giant thank you to our sponsors:
Jane App: A free data import? Now that’s what we’re talking about! 👏
Jane is a clinic management software and EMR that guarantees no surprises. When you sign up, you won’t have to pay for your data import or onboarding support, and there won’t be any set-up fees or contracts that tie you in.See why Jane is the EMR that isn’t too good to be true at Jane App - Practice Management Software for Health & Wellness Practitioners and use code GUY1MO at check out.
Journey Clinical: At Journey Clinical, we partner with licensed mental health professionals across the U.S. to safely bring KAP into practice. Our collaborative care model provides prescribing, monitoring, and medical oversight, so you can stay fully focused on guiding your clients.Visit join.journeyclinical.com/trauma to learn more and receive a month off your membership.
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-trauma-therapist--5739761/support.
You can learn more about what I do here:
The Trauma Therapist Newsletter: celebrates the people and voices in the mental health profession. And it's free! Check it out here: https://bit.ly/4jGBeSa
———
If you’d like to support The Trauma Therapist Podcast and the work I do you can do that here with a monthly donation of $5, $7, or $10: Donate to The Trauma Therapist Podcast.
Click here to join my email list and receive podcast updates and other news.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to the Trauma THEAPIS podcast. My name is go Macpherson.
I interview incredible people who dedicated their lives to helping
those who have been impacted by trauma. Here we go,
so five four, three, two and one, our folks, welcome
back to the podcast. Very excited to have as my
guests today Robin Walzer and Dara Westrup. Welcome ladies.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
Thank you for having us.
Speaker 1 (00:26):
Yeah you all right? So. Doctor Walser is a clinical psychologist, educator,
and internationally recognized expert in trauma and acceptance commitment therapy,
serving as assistant clinical professor at UC Berkeley, director of
Research at Bay Area Trauma Recovery, and staff member at
the National Center for PTSD. Doctor Darre Westrup is a
(00:46):
clinical psychologist and act expert based in Durango, Colorado, known
for her work with complex trauma, international training workshops, and
leadership roles at the VA and Palo Alto Women's Mental
Health and Trauma pros. Welcome ladies. Before we get going,
share with the listeners where you're from originally and where
you are currently. Darra, let's start with you Originally.
Speaker 3 (01:09):
I'm from Greeley, Colorado. I spent quite a bit of
time in the Bay Area hanging out with Robin, and
now I'm in a mountaintown called Durango, Colorado, southwestern Colorado.
Speaker 1 (01:22):
Okay.
Speaker 4 (01:24):
I am originally from a little, tiny, teeny tiny place
called Liman, Wyoming. That's where I spent my formative years.
I don't recommend anybody to go there. And I now
live in the Bay Area. So I'm near San Francisco.
Speaker 1 (01:42):
Okay, So let's start out just briefly. How did you
two meet?
Speaker 3 (01:48):
Oh, that's so fun. It's been a long time. It's
like twenty five years or something. So I was an
intern at Palo Alto BA Pale Alto Healthcare System and
after that was offered a position to come and direct
the women's Trauma Recovery program. And I had been I
had done a dissertation that was related to ACT and
(02:11):
my colleagues knew that I was interested, and everywhere I went,
I heard, you need to meet Robin Waalzer, you need
to meet Robin Walzer. And I did finally meet Robin
Waalzer and happily found a colleague who was very, very
masterful in the therapy that I was very passionate about,
and together we brought ACT into our residential treatment program
(02:35):
for women. It was the first time it had ever
been in a residential program, and it was incredibly exciting
and rich, rewarding work, and we spent about eight years
doing that, Robin, I think, as well as doing after
group follow up booster groups for years.
Speaker 1 (02:53):
Why were people telling you you've got to meet Robin.
Was it because you're at the commonality, the shared experience interest,
or what?
Speaker 3 (03:01):
Well? I think it was the universe, but I think
it was because they knew that she was experienced an
acceptance of commitment therapy. I'll let Robin speak to herself
her own experience there in coming up with Steve Hayes's lab,
and so she was well known for that. And then
(03:21):
when they heard me talking about ACT and what I
thought it could do and my interest in bringing it
into our work, it seemed a natural thing that needed
to happen, and.
Speaker 1 (03:32):
They were right, awesome, Robin, what would you add there?
Speaker 4 (03:36):
Oh, well, it was really fun to hear about Dara
and that she was interested in acting, So of course
I was like, oh, a fellow traveler, a fellow traveler,
And I think when we first met we just hit
it off right away, like we started talking about how
we can treat trauma with ACT. We were both super
(03:57):
interested and he's developed to a really strong friendship that's
been now on for since twenty two thousand and we've
written together, and we've worked together, we've done trainings together,
we've traveled together and survived and that's a good sign.
Speaker 1 (04:16):
And so amazing.
Speaker 4 (04:18):
Yeah, so a long time friendship and excellent collaboration and
putting together at for trauma.
Speaker 3 (04:26):
Well, I think you should add travel to places like
and did trainings in South Africa and Hong Kong and
zen Zabars, So not just travel but travel.
Speaker 1 (04:37):
Right right, Wow, like wow, travel, that's inspiring me. All right,
So as you're talking, my mind is like going, there's
so many things to talk about. But if we can,
I want to kind of start macro and kind of
dial in. But I'm really curious about both of your
(04:59):
int in trauma and why how did you get interested
in that?
Speaker 3 (05:06):
Uh?
Speaker 1 (05:08):
Go please?
Speaker 3 (05:09):
Okay, I have two answers, if you'll bear with me.
I'll try not to talk too long here, But one
is I feel as though a path opened in front
of me and I just kept stepping into it. I
went into a program and heard about an excellent vertical
training team vertical meaning students from every single level of
(05:32):
the program we're participating in. So you could have that
sort of mentorship and getting really solid treatment on how
to work with trauma and PTSD getting a very nice
internship that also had very strong rotations in that area,
and then having a job opportunity and stepping into it.
(05:54):
So that's the surface answer.
Speaker 1 (05:57):
Okay, so PTSD, So was this at the VA. Yeah,
so we're talking about trauma related or trauma related to combat,
et cetera.
Speaker 3 (06:10):
Well, yes, so by the time I got into my position,
we were working with every sort of trauma. So in
a typical trauma group, we would have individuals with extensive
childhood trauma including stashisical sexual abuse who had joined the
military as a means to escape that vin revictivise, and
(06:33):
then had combat related trauma as well. So we really
had the full gamut of trauma experiences.
Speaker 1 (06:42):
So I mean, obviously heavy duty. How did you deal
with that? I mean that however you slice it, it's
intense to work with that. What was your experience, initial
experience working with that?
Speaker 3 (06:56):
I get asked that not inly, I bet you do too,
Robin kind of how do we do the work that
we do? And I always feel like, oh my gosh,
I see the best part of human nature.
Speaker 1 (07:10):
I see the part but when you first started, when
you first started, yeah, that might be a little different,
you know, because did you just did you think? Did
you get into the field, like, okay, I want to
work with trauma?
Speaker 3 (07:26):
So I personally didn't that unfolded And as I've worked
in those areas, my interest grew and I saw the
sorts of recovery that could happen, and so I just
didn't have that experience that you're describing of being oh no,
this is too hard, this is overwhelming. And part of it,
(07:48):
I'm sure Robin will want to speak to this too,
is the model that we work with helps you be
in a place as a provider that that mitigates those
sorts of effects of feeling a burnout as we hear
about it or Vicarry is truma because you are in
order to do it effectively, you need to embrace it
(08:09):
and you use the very skills that you're helping your
clients have and that helps me hold it in a
way that isn't oh no, this is.
Speaker 1 (08:17):
Too much sure, sure, sure, which can be easier said
than done. Robin, how about you? What was your entree
into it? How did you What were you thinking about
it when you when you got into it? Why? What
was the attraction in the sense?
Speaker 2 (08:36):
Well, it probably wouldn't be.
Speaker 4 (08:41):
Authentic if I weren't to say that I do have
a trauma history myself and so experience trauma in my background,
although that wasn't what initially ignited my interest in working
with trauma.
Speaker 2 (08:55):
I thought I was going to be a medical doctor, and.
Speaker 4 (08:58):
You know, I was headed on a different path, but
could not do the freaking chemistry. So landed in psychology
and started looking at the impacts of trauma and then
thinking about the impact on my own family of trauma,
and did my master's thesis in the area of childhood abuse,
(09:20):
and then moved on and did a dissertation using experiential
avoidance processes inside of act to look at the difference
between people who are open to experiencing versus closed, And
then got a job at the National Center for PTSD
and history kind of wrote itself after that, and so
(09:44):
been at the National Center for twenty five years.
Speaker 1 (09:47):
Awesome. Appreciate you both sharing that all right, let's kind
of shift use a little act.
Speaker 2 (09:55):
What is it, Robin, So, act is an intervention that.
Speaker 4 (10:03):
Is about opening up to internal experience, very natural human emotion,
learned thoughts, sensations that our body naturally has, and allowing
them to be there for what they are, rather than
fighting against it and trying to avoid them, which, by
the way, is not human being's fault. We're taught that
(10:25):
we should run away from these things, but the process
of running away creates a lot of problems. And so
what we want to do is help people turn toward
open up, become aware of their experience, and then make
a life that's about committed action related to values and
creating meaning rather than a life that's about battling trauma
(10:49):
symptoms and.
Speaker 1 (10:50):
Sounds amazing, Yeah, some sounds Buddhist. Yeah, there's a sense
of acceptance there. Dara, give us an example of what
Robin explained. What would that look like in practice?
Speaker 3 (11:06):
Well, it points to we're talking about different ways of
being and different ways of relating to what is showing up,
and that starts from the minute someone walks through my
door and I first start having a conversation with them.
The way that I'm talking about it and guiding them
(11:26):
to start thinking about it as an experience that's showing up.
So if they're saying I'm this that I might start
reflecting back. So that sounds a really tough thought. What
other thoughts come along that? What else shows up with that?
And I'm already starting to point to an experience that's occurring,
(11:48):
and that there's a distinction between the client and the
experience that we're talking about. So that's just a small
example of how we start the work.
Speaker 1 (11:58):
So just if I'm hearing you, they might someone might
come in and say, my god, I'm feeling what crappy
I'm feeling like? So turns about what happened, and you
might say, what else is coming up for that to
offer different ways of looking at it? Or what well, I'm.
Speaker 3 (12:18):
Glad you're saying reflecting it back because it's so important
not to to. I think we're very quick to create
sort of an algorithm or a rule in terms of
how we would handle what someone says and what, of course.
Speaker 1 (12:36):
I mean the other everything's different and everyone's different.
Speaker 3 (12:38):
We all know that I'm looking for is the process.
So the first thing I would do is, really, like
I think any therapist really helped that person feel understood
and joined. So my first reaction might be just something like, wow,
that sounds really difficult, but I want to start working
(12:59):
with this in a way that joins them in the experience,
almost like we're together looking at something. Mm hmmm, So
I would then yeah, So then I could say something
like that sounds like a really well that is a
painful thought. Even when you say that, my stomach kind of.
Speaker 1 (13:16):
Just drops right, Yeah.
Speaker 3 (13:18):
What happens to you right there?
Speaker 1 (13:23):
Okay, And I'm just trying to get an idea of
this concept of acceptance. How might that weave into this.
Speaker 3 (13:33):
Well, it's it's huge, it's we will sometimes speak to
willingness as another term for acceptance, because so many clients
come in with these notions of acceptance, meaning that they're
supposed to somehow feel differently about it right that if
they accept then it will change what it is that
(13:55):
they're trying to accept. And we're really looking at radical
acceptance of what is, which includes the way you think
and feel about the trauma in this case. And so
it's a stance of being open to what's there to
be had in a way that isn't growing the struggle
(14:16):
by fighting against it or trying to change it. So
it's it's quite a skill that we're talking.
Speaker 1 (14:21):
About, Robin.
Speaker 4 (14:25):
Would you add to that, Well, I think I would,
and I didn't hear that. What we're helping people do
is take another perspective on the way they relate to themselves.
So we're trained over and over again that we shouldn't
feel particular ways, So you shouldn't feel crappy, for instance,
(14:47):
what you brought up earlier, And if you're feeling that,
what you need to do is figure out how to
stop feeling it and then you can live your life.
But the problem with PTSD is that people don't stop
feeling those things even when they're working really hard to
try to stop doing it, and the ways that they
try to stop actually lead to harm, for instance, substance use,
(15:12):
or getting out of relationships that are important or valuable
to them, or being hypervigilant and not being able to
go places because they don't feel safe. All of the
ways that people run from their own emotional experience to
try to tame it and get rid of it, because
that's the message. If you feel bad, get rid of
(15:33):
that so you can feel good. But the problem is
is that people sacrifice their lives to try to feel good.
Speaker 2 (15:41):
And so what we want to do with acceptances.
Speaker 4 (15:44):
Take a new perspective that maybe running is the problem,
not the emotional experience itself.
Speaker 2 (15:51):
And so we want.
Speaker 4 (15:52):
People to observe their experience and engage life now rather
than wait to engage life when they feel better.
Speaker 2 (16:00):
I want them to live well.
Speaker 4 (16:01):
Does that make like rather than working on feeling good,
we're going to work on feeling what you feel and
living well?
Speaker 1 (16:09):
Right right? Yeah, I mean it makes perfect sense. And
I think as we all know, again that's that's a
hard calls. That can be a tough call for a
lot of us. Let me just remind everyone I'm speaking
with Daryl Westrup and Robin Wallzer. The new book is
called You Are Not Alone in a CC Guide for
(16:30):
Healing from Within.
Speaker 2 (16:33):
The guy, can I say you are not your trauma?
Speaker 1 (16:36):
You were not your trauma? What did I say?
Speaker 2 (16:37):
You are not alone? But they're not alone? You are trauma?
Speaker 3 (16:42):
Could be another subtitle.
Speaker 1 (16:45):
Thank you for that, Thank you for that correction, you
are not your trauma and act guide for Healing from Within?
All right, So why the book? Why did you write
this book?
Speaker 3 (17:01):
Shall I go or do you wanna take it?
Speaker 4 (17:04):
Well, I'm happy to talk about it for a number
of reasons and BO and some of those are just
personal for me and there like, we wanna help people
who are suffering from trauma, and there's not enough therapists
to do that, and so this book is an offering
for those people out there who either can't afford therapy,
(17:25):
don't have insurance, and for those who do like it's
a it's a terrific book for people who are struggling
with trauma and want to find a way to work
through it. So it's a way to reach a lot
more people, and it's a way to share with folks
what we've found to be healing, and we wanna offer
that to trauma survivors uh finding a new way to
(17:49):
engage their life. It's not just about running, hiding and fighting,
but it's about getting out there and doing values based
living in this one short life that we have.
Speaker 1 (18:01):
We'll see more about this, this value concepts you've mentioned
it before. How does that come in? Where does that
come in with act?
Speaker 2 (18:12):
Well, so we.
Speaker 4 (18:16):
A lot of people are focused on getting rid of symptoms,
like let me not feel what I feel as I
was mentioning earlier, and what gets sacrificed is how you're living.
And you know, Darren and I have thought about this
and the number of times and that you know, death ism,
(18:36):
and for everybody, you have a short time to be here,
and so how do you want to spend that time
becomes a really important question. And for those who've been traumatized,
it's like their time has been stolen by the emotional
experiences that they're struggling with, in the memories that they're
struggling with. And we want to see if we can
get folks reoriented to living in ways.
Speaker 2 (18:58):
That create meeting based.
Speaker 4 (19:00):
On their values, based on what matters to them, so
that it's not just about opening up to experience and
learning that these emotions and sensations are not dangerous.
Speaker 2 (19:12):
It's also about okay, and now where do you want
to go? What do you want to build.
Speaker 4 (19:17):
For yourself in your life? What root truly matters to you,
and what would that look like? And so we want
to understand people's values, see what they care about, and
then help them engage in behaviors that get.
Speaker 2 (19:30):
Them oriented in that direction. I don't know if you'd
have anything, Dad, No, I thought.
Speaker 3 (19:37):
That was a nice description. I was thinking of the
many people we've worked with over the years who when
you said that their life had been stolen. And I
was thinking also, especially with some of the veterans that
we worked with, who felt that they no longer deserve
their values because of things seen and done and experience.
(19:58):
And so it is pretty meaningful work to help people
contact values like a point on a compass that's always there,
regardless of what's gone before, that they can connect to
and care about, and they in the next moment can
choose what they will care about and whether the next
step they take in my life is toward that value
(20:21):
or not, and that stands regardless. And I've felt that
was a really precious message that came out of this work.
Speaker 1 (20:31):
Robin, you talked a little bit about the book UH
being accessible for people maybe who don't have access to
therapy or even an ad jump to people who do,
But more specifically, who who's the book for?
Speaker 4 (20:46):
Well, I think anyone who is struggling with trauma, including
complex trauma, which means somebody has had multiple different types
of trauma and usually across on a lifespan or a
during childhood, so childhood sexual or physical abuse or severe neglect.
But then they've also had other forms of trauma. So
(21:09):
complex means multiple forms of trauma. And by the way,
the clients that Dare and I see are often in
that category. They have not just had one trauma, they
have had many traumas. So anybody who falls into that
category or even has a single trauma, like maybe they
were in a car accident and they're having a really
(21:31):
hard time, or they were the victim of violence, that
it's really there for anybody who's experienced or struggles with
the fallout of.
Speaker 2 (21:43):
A traumatic experience.
Speaker 4 (21:46):
Clinicians too, by the way, yeah, yeah, yeah, Okay.
Speaker 3 (21:51):
I had a clinician mentioned to me that she's been
waiting for a book that would help her really help
her clients. And I love thinking about the book being
used in that way.
Speaker 1 (22:06):
So obviously there are many modalities out there. How does
how would you say act within the context of trauma
is different? What does it do differently? What's the perspective
that's different?
Speaker 4 (22:26):
Okay, but you want me to start this one there
or would you like to take a swing at it?
Speaker 3 (22:30):
Go ahead, go ahead, okay.
Speaker 4 (22:33):
So but by the way, guy, just for folks out
there in the world who will be listening.
Speaker 2 (22:38):
We usually refer to it as ACT.
Speaker 4 (22:40):
And not ACT because there's another therapy called ACT out there,
and so we say it is one word act, and
it also speaks to the therapy itself. So if you
hear us saying act, we're referring to you.
Speaker 1 (22:56):
Got it? Yeah, thank you for that.
Speaker 4 (22:58):
Yeah, just a general a term that people are used
to in the act world, as they call it ACT.
So it's different because fundamentally, and this is one of
the things that I appreciated about it when I first
contacted it, is that you treat the person as a
whole human being, that they're not broken or dysfunctional or
(23:24):
irrational or illogical about anything that's going on inside their skin.
This is an approach that says you're a whole human
being as you are. And the struggle is in that
you've been told you shouldn't feel certain things, and if
you've been traumatized, you're going to feel stuff. Things are
(23:46):
going to show up there and it's naturally part of
what you're going to feel.
Speaker 2 (23:51):
The problem is some people just get stuck, and largely
what makes them stuck.
Speaker 4 (23:55):
Is there don't want to feel what they're feeling and
it isn't allowed to process through, and so we're going
to approach them from a position of your whole. To start,
you're not dysfunctional, you're not broken, you're not a bag
of symptoms. You're a human being who's had an experience
(24:18):
that would elicit these kinds of arousals and emotional states
and memories, and we're going to help you learn how
to relate to those in a way that they no
longer impact what you choose to do in your life.
And so a lot of other therapies are about this
is a dysfunctional, disordered process, and what we need to
(24:40):
do is fix your disorder, get rid of the dysfunctional
pieces of it, and that would be the treatment.
Speaker 2 (24:48):
And so we depart in that space.
Speaker 4 (24:52):
We're not going to try to make you think differently,
so to speak, like you have to get rid of
certain thoughts or memories or negative evaluations of yourself, but
instead seem for what they are learned behaviors that you
got a long time ago, that don't have to be
in charge of your life.
Speaker 2 (25:12):
That many many, many human beings have.
Speaker 4 (25:15):
Right, Like, we all have negative thoughts about ourselves.
Speaker 2 (25:18):
But that's not your fault.
Speaker 4 (25:20):
You learned that you didn't come out and you weren't
born with negative thoughts, you learned them, and so we're
going to help you create a different relationship with them
where they no longer have the impact that they seem
to have.
Speaker 2 (25:33):
And Dre, I don't know if you want to add
to or about the distincle.
Speaker 3 (25:36):
It's so interesting, guy, would you ask them these questions?
Like I have a quick little montage of people that
I've worked with over the years, and I was I
just had this memory of sitting in my office at
the VA with yet another a woman coming into the
program and getting her initial interview, and they're talking about
(26:02):
how excited she was and how long she'd waited to
get in, and how we were going to change your
life and how she was going to change your life
to just having this huge sense of setup, right that
she's set up, we're set up, and a feeling like
if I look deep in her eyes, I was seeing fear.
(26:24):
Because if you ask the right questions and you keep asking,
you get you the right question. What you get to
is I wanted to be gone. I wanted to not
have happened, and I'm not okay until that's gone and
not happened, and there's already this sense of hopelessness because
we all know that can't occur. And until ACT, and
(26:48):
until Acting in on board into our program, we didn't
know how to address that. And it offered a way like, yes,
that sense of that what you're wanting is not possible,
you're right, and there is a way to hold this.
There is a way to have a vital life, to
(27:10):
feel whole and intact even with this, And prior to
this therapy, I didn't hadn't found a way to help
someone who had never had the experience of feeling acceptable
or whole contact that and live from that place. ACT
offers that, And we can't get there if people are
(27:30):
stuck in the battle of trying and get rid.
Speaker 1 (27:32):
Of what is mm hmm like setting up this duality.
This is bad and I have to get rid of.
Speaker 3 (27:41):
It, and I'm bad as long.
Speaker 1 (27:43):
As I have it right, right, right. Well, there's something
as you both were talking, there's something I was feeling.
How much sense pressure or ease I would feel if
(28:07):
I walked into either of your offices and heard what
you were saying. I'm not saying it would be easy
to accept but there's that that that different perspective. It
feels very to me like martial arts is coming up,
you know, moving with not against yes. And that's again
(28:33):
it's not always easy to do because all this crap
and ship we're experiencing in shame and yeah, we want
to get rid of it and we don't want it
to have we want it not to have happened.
Speaker 4 (28:52):
Wow, there's a real paradox interestingly in wanting to not
have your internal variance, right. The struggles like if you
want to get rid of a memory, which many people
who've been traumatized do. They don't want to think about
the bad thing that happened to them, but it's intruding, right,
Like that's the and so you do something like I
(29:15):
want that memory to go away. Then you've had and
you keep doing that. What you're doing is having more
interaction with the memory. So if you want to memorize something,
what do you do? You repeat it again and again
and again, and so then people are in there, I
don't want the memory. I don't want the memory.
Speaker 2 (29:32):
What memory? The one that I'm saying I don't.
Speaker 4 (29:33):
Want, repeat, repeat, And so it gets bigger.
Speaker 2 (29:37):
Do you see how it got bigger, not smaller.
Speaker 4 (29:40):
And so our job isn't to like help them figure
out how to excavate something out of their mind, but
to be present to it, have some compassion for your experience,
let it flow and be. And it isn't Eastern has
Eastern philosophical flavors in there, right, you can hear it,
let it come and goal.
Speaker 2 (30:03):
It's the not letting it go that.
Speaker 4 (30:05):
Actually creates more of the suffering if you don't want to.
It's hard to not have a thought, like if I
said right now, like you guys don't think a thought
and it's next second or two like it's impossible. So
people take control that they can do out here, Like
you can move things around in your environment, So why
(30:25):
can't I move things around inside my skin?
Speaker 2 (30:28):
Because it doesn't work that way.
Speaker 4 (30:31):
It's it's not the thing they're inside your skin that's
the problem. It's the trying to control them that's the problem.
And so this is where Dara and I can come
in and look at where control is effective and look
at where it's not and it's not effective and trying
not to feel. We're built to feel. That's a very
(30:52):
human experience, and we want to have compassion and humanity
for that experience. We want to help people come back
to knowing what it means to be a human being.
Speaker 3 (31:03):
All the good stuff is there too.
Speaker 2 (31:05):
Yeah, good stuff is there to do.
Speaker 4 (31:07):
By the way, if you if you're suppressing emotion, you
can't suppress. You don't get to choose which ones you're
gonna suppress. Like we are not very good as human beings.
That's saying I don't want to feel anxiety, so I'm
going to suppress that one.
Speaker 2 (31:22):
What you end up doing is suppressing at all.
Speaker 4 (31:24):
And so if you don't want to feel anxiety, you're
also cutting yourself off from joy. You open up to
the flow of experience, then you open up to joy
as well. And Darre and I want our clients to
feel joy like that is on the agenda because joy
feels like it's not there, it's not available until I
(31:45):
get rid of this trauma. And what we want to say, No,
it's there, it's a it's available, and when you get that,
let's bring it into your life.
Speaker 1 (31:56):
So as we kind of wind down, here are our
You're obviously you're not saying you know. Obviously you're not
saying you know someone comes into your office and they're
having all these symptoms. You're you're not saying, you know,
shut up and deal with the symptoms. I'm just I'm
(32:18):
just making making a point. But you know that's not
very emphathic. But you're you're you're in one tn You're saying,
you know, looking at it, being with it is one
way of managing or or dealing with it correct dancing
(32:40):
within in a sense.
Speaker 2 (32:42):
Dancing with it, I said, probably a better metaphor.
Speaker 1 (32:45):
Okay, I'm putting myself in our listener's seat here. What
are other ways that you might deal or work or
address these symptoms that someone is coming into your office with?
Or is that the entirety this process of learning to
(33:08):
be with and to bring in one values and as
you were speaking with about earlier, Robin, is looking at
someone's values and seeing what does light them up in
their life.
Speaker 5 (33:23):
Well, there's a set of skills that are very interrelated
that all are pulled into play, and I see our
work as helping our clients develop those skills.
Speaker 3 (33:39):
But I think I would really want the listener to
understand and anyone considering learning more about this is that
it's a deeply as Robin pointed, to it. It's a
deeply compassionate therapy, and we are not saying you need
to think and feel differently about this. Quite the opposite.
We're helping. We're joining in that difficult experience, the human
(34:02):
nature experience of how we experience difficult things, what we
do that tend to make those things even more difficult,
and how we might hold them in a way that
allows us to re engage in the good lives. But
that is not in any way suggesting that they should
(34:23):
be thinking and feeling differently. We're joining in that experience
of suffering and kind of boldly pointing to that, saying,
you know, there's a reason why, on top of the
pain of this experience you're struggling, let's talk about that
pass But it's not a hey, you need to work with.
Speaker 2 (34:44):
This differently true well in symptoms.
Speaker 4 (34:48):
Interestingly enough, if you look at the research data, although
symptoms are not the target of the treatment, like, we're
not saying let's go take that symptom and push it
down that we're saying, let's go see what you're feeling
and open up to it, which might sound a little
bit scary to some people, but it's actually moving through
(35:08):
and showing exposing yourself to your emotional experience, and what
you learn is that they're not dangerous.
Speaker 2 (35:15):
Emotions are not dangerous, they're not harmful. Memories are not.
Speaker 4 (35:19):
Harmful, and so we want people to learn that. But
when we do that work, people report that their symptoms
go down. But we're not targeting their symptoms. But part
of it is is that they've stopped that battle that
you're pointing to. And when you stop the battle, turns
out your symptoms.
Speaker 2 (35:43):
Yeah, and so and there.
Speaker 4 (35:45):
You know, we do some work that's called a selfish
context or perspective taking. We help people connect to a
larger sense of self that can.
Speaker 2 (35:55):
Hold all experience.
Speaker 4 (35:56):
We work on mindfulness and presence and being aware and
tracking what's happening for you in your life and what
the consequences of your own behavior are so that you
can shift and change and adapt and vary in ways
that are going to help you depending on the context
that you're in. So you know, we're we're not just
saying let's open up to this, like we're doing a
(36:18):
lot of different things in.
Speaker 2 (36:19):
The room and in the book as well.
Speaker 4 (36:22):
We're walking people through these different processes to help establish
a sense of being willing and moving into acceptance as
a way of walking through the world with your values
intact and being lived.
Speaker 2 (36:35):
Out as a process not an outcome. Right, Does that
makes sense?
Speaker 4 (36:40):
Like you don't arrive in your values, you don't arrive
at loving and go I'm done with that one.
Speaker 2 (36:46):
Loving is always there to be done.
Speaker 4 (36:47):
And so how do I keep doing that as I
move through life, even when I come against other challenges?
Speaker 2 (36:53):
And if you've got.
Speaker 4 (36:54):
New learning on board, you've learned a new way, you're
going to be able to do that versus continent and
youing to battle yourself forever. I mean, Darren and I
have worked with veterans who are you know, in their
seventies in eighties, and they're telling us things like I've
been struggling with.
Speaker 2 (37:11):
This all my life.
Speaker 4 (37:13):
All my life, I've been burying this burden and it
didn't have to be that way. And so, you know,
we want to We hope that people listening can hear
it doesn't have to be something that.
Speaker 2 (37:28):
You bear the burden of your whole life. It can
be about something else.
Speaker 4 (37:34):
And that's the work we want to that's the work
we want to do, and that's the work that's in the.
Speaker 1 (37:38):
Book once again. The book is called You Are Not
Your Trauma and Act Guide for Healing from Within by
doctors Robin Wallser and Darah Westrup. Dar Let's start with you.
What's the best way for people to learn more about
what you're doing.
Speaker 3 (37:56):
Well, I'm on LinkedIn. You can find me doctor Darrek
west there, and I'm on Instagram, and i have a
web page dub dub doctor Dara dot com, which I
know is doctor Phil but hey, and I try to
keep my activities updated there and we'd love to welcome
(38:19):
you all to join me in whatever way interests you.
Speaker 4 (38:23):
Awesome, how about you, Robin, Yeah, I've got a website,
Robin Walser dot com where people can learn about the
trainings and consultation and treatment that I'm doing. I've also
got an Instagram account, Facebook account, and blue Sky account
(38:44):
and so. But people can connect to all of these
on Robin Walser dot com. They're all there, and if
they're interested, they can follow in me those in those places.
I put out a newsletter on a monthly basis that
a lot of folks have been quite interested in and
so if people want to join me there they can
do that as well awesome.
Speaker 1 (39:03):
And we'll have each of those, all of those linked
up here at the show notes page at the Trauma
theaprispodcast dot com. Both of you, thank you so much. Obviously,
there's a lot to talk about and I'd love to
have you back at a later date. Both awesome. Thank
you so much for being here, and we'll be in touch.
Thanks all right, take care,
Welcome to the Trauma THEAPIS podcast. My name is go Macpherson.
I interview incredible people who dedicated their lives to helping
those who have been impacted by trauma. Here we go,
so five four, three, two and one, our folks, welcome
back to the podcast. Very excited to have as my
guests today Robin Walzer and Dara Westrup. Welcome ladies.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
Thank you for having us.
Speaker 1 (00:26):
Yeah you all right? So. Doctor Walser is a clinical psychologist, educator,
and internationally recognized expert in trauma and acceptance commitment therapy,
serving as assistant clinical professor at UC Berkeley, director of
Research at Bay Area Trauma Recovery, and staff member at
the National Center for PTSD. Doctor Darre Westrup is a
(00:46):
clinical psychologist and act expert based in Durango, Colorado, known
for her work with complex trauma, international training workshops, and
leadership roles at the VA and Palo Alto Women's Mental
Health and Trauma pros. Welcome ladies. Before we get going,
share with the listeners where you're from originally and where
you are currently. Darra, let's start with you Originally.
Speaker 3 (01:09):
I'm from Greeley, Colorado. I spent quite a bit of
time in the Bay Area hanging out with Robin, and
now I'm in a mountaintown called Durango, Colorado, southwestern Colorado.
Speaker 1 (01:22):
Okay.
Speaker 4 (01:24):
I am originally from a little, tiny, teeny tiny place
called Liman, Wyoming. That's where I spent my formative years.
I don't recommend anybody to go there. And I now
live in the Bay Area. So I'm near San Francisco.
Speaker 1 (01:42):
Okay, So let's start out just briefly. How did you
two meet?
Speaker 3 (01:48):
Oh, that's so fun. It's been a long time. It's
like twenty five years or something. So I was an
intern at Palo Alto BA Pale Alto Healthcare System and
after that was offered a position to come and direct
the women's Trauma Recovery program. And I had been I
had done a dissertation that was related to ACT and
(02:11):
my colleagues knew that I was interested, and everywhere I went,
I heard, you need to meet Robin Waalzer, you need
to meet Robin Walzer. And I did finally meet Robin
Waalzer and happily found a colleague who was very, very
masterful in the therapy that I was very passionate about,
and together we brought ACT into our residential treatment program
(02:35):
for women. It was the first time it had ever
been in a residential program, and it was incredibly exciting
and rich, rewarding work, and we spent about eight years
doing that, Robin, I think, as well as doing after
group follow up booster groups for years.
Speaker 1 (02:53):
Why were people telling you you've got to meet Robin.
Was it because you're at the commonality, the shared experience interest,
or what?
Speaker 3 (03:01):
Well? I think it was the universe, but I think
it was because they knew that she was experienced an
acceptance of commitment therapy. I'll let Robin speak to herself
her own experience there in coming up with Steve Hayes's lab,
and so she was well known for that. And then
(03:21):
when they heard me talking about ACT and what I
thought it could do and my interest in bringing it
into our work, it seemed a natural thing that needed
to happen, and.
Speaker 1 (03:32):
They were right, awesome, Robin, what would you add there?
Speaker 4 (03:36):
Oh, well, it was really fun to hear about Dara
and that she was interested in acting, So of course
I was like, oh, a fellow traveler, a fellow traveler,
And I think when we first met we just hit
it off right away, like we started talking about how
we can treat trauma with ACT. We were both super
(03:57):
interested and he's developed to a really strong friendship that's
been now on for since twenty two thousand and we've
written together, and we've worked together, we've done trainings together,
we've traveled together and survived and that's a good sign.
Speaker 1 (04:16):
And so amazing.
Speaker 4 (04:18):
Yeah, so a long time friendship and excellent collaboration and
putting together at for trauma.
Speaker 3 (04:26):
Well, I think you should add travel to places like
and did trainings in South Africa and Hong Kong and
zen Zabars, So not just travel but travel.
Speaker 1 (04:37):
Right right, Wow, like wow, travel, that's inspiring me. All right,
So as you're talking, my mind is like going, there's
so many things to talk about. But if we can,
I want to kind of start macro and kind of
dial in. But I'm really curious about both of your
(04:59):
int in trauma and why how did you get interested
in that?
Speaker 3 (05:06):
Uh?
Speaker 1 (05:08):
Go please?
Speaker 3 (05:09):
Okay, I have two answers, if you'll bear with me.
I'll try not to talk too long here, But one
is I feel as though a path opened in front
of me and I just kept stepping into it. I
went into a program and heard about an excellent vertical
training team vertical meaning students from every single level of
(05:32):
the program we're participating in. So you could have that
sort of mentorship and getting really solid treatment on how
to work with trauma and PTSD getting a very nice
internship that also had very strong rotations in that area,
and then having a job opportunity and stepping into it.
(05:54):
So that's the surface answer.
Speaker 1 (05:57):
Okay, so PTSD, So was this at the VA. Yeah,
so we're talking about trauma related or trauma related to combat,
et cetera.
Speaker 3 (06:10):
Well, yes, so by the time I got into my position,
we were working with every sort of trauma. So in
a typical trauma group, we would have individuals with extensive
childhood trauma including stashisical sexual abuse who had joined the
military as a means to escape that vin revictivise, and
(06:33):
then had combat related trauma as well. So we really
had the full gamut of trauma experiences.
Speaker 1 (06:42):
So I mean, obviously heavy duty. How did you deal
with that? I mean that however you slice it, it's
intense to work with that. What was your experience, initial
experience working with that?
Speaker 3 (06:56):
I get asked that not inly, I bet you do too,
Robin kind of how do we do the work that
we do? And I always feel like, oh my gosh,
I see the best part of human nature.
Speaker 1 (07:10):
I see the part but when you first started, when
you first started, yeah, that might be a little different,
you know, because did you just did you think? Did
you get into the field, like, okay, I want to
work with trauma?
Speaker 3 (07:26):
So I personally didn't that unfolded And as I've worked
in those areas, my interest grew and I saw the
sorts of recovery that could happen, and so I just
didn't have that experience that you're describing of being oh no,
this is too hard, this is overwhelming. And part of it,
(07:48):
I'm sure Robin will want to speak to this too,
is the model that we work with helps you be
in a place as a provider that that mitigates those
sorts of effects of feeling a burnout as we hear
about it or Vicarry is truma because you are in
order to do it effectively, you need to embrace it
(08:09):
and you use the very skills that you're helping your
clients have and that helps me hold it in a
way that isn't oh no, this is.
Speaker 1 (08:17):
Too much sure, sure, sure, which can be easier said
than done. Robin, how about you? What was your entree
into it? How did you What were you thinking about
it when you when you got into it? Why? What
was the attraction in the sense?
Speaker 2 (08:36):
Well, it probably wouldn't be.
Speaker 4 (08:41):
Authentic if I weren't to say that I do have
a trauma history myself and so experience trauma in my background,
although that wasn't what initially ignited my interest in working
with trauma.
Speaker 2 (08:55):
I thought I was going to be a medical doctor, and.
Speaker 4 (08:58):
You know, I was headed on a different path, but
could not do the freaking chemistry. So landed in psychology
and started looking at the impacts of trauma and then
thinking about the impact on my own family of trauma,
and did my master's thesis in the area of childhood abuse,
(09:20):
and then moved on and did a dissertation using experiential
avoidance processes inside of act to look at the difference
between people who are open to experiencing versus closed, And
then got a job at the National Center for PTSD
and history kind of wrote itself after that, and so
(09:44):
been at the National Center for twenty five years.
Speaker 1 (09:47):
Awesome. Appreciate you both sharing that all right, let's kind
of shift use a little act.
Speaker 2 (09:55):
What is it, Robin, So, act is an intervention that.
Speaker 4 (10:03):
Is about opening up to internal experience, very natural human emotion,
learned thoughts, sensations that our body naturally has, and allowing
them to be there for what they are, rather than
fighting against it and trying to avoid them, which, by
the way, is not human being's fault. We're taught that
(10:25):
we should run away from these things, but the process
of running away creates a lot of problems. And so
what we want to do is help people turn toward
open up, become aware of their experience, and then make
a life that's about committed action related to values and
creating meaning rather than a life that's about battling trauma
(10:49):
symptoms and.
Speaker 1 (10:50):
Sounds amazing, Yeah, some sounds Buddhist. Yeah, there's a sense
of acceptance there. Dara, give us an example of what
Robin explained. What would that look like in practice?
Speaker 3 (11:06):
Well, it points to we're talking about different ways of
being and different ways of relating to what is showing up,
and that starts from the minute someone walks through my
door and I first start having a conversation with them.
The way that I'm talking about it and guiding them
(11:26):
to start thinking about it as an experience that's showing up.
So if they're saying I'm this that I might start
reflecting back. So that sounds a really tough thought. What
other thoughts come along that? What else shows up with that?
And I'm already starting to point to an experience that's occurring,
(11:48):
and that there's a distinction between the client and the
experience that we're talking about. So that's just a small
example of how we start the work.
Speaker 1 (11:58):
So just if I'm hearing you, they might someone might
come in and say, my god, I'm feeling what crappy
I'm feeling like? So turns about what happened, and you
might say, what else is coming up for that to
offer different ways of looking at it? Or what well, I'm.
Speaker 3 (12:18):
Glad you're saying reflecting it back because it's so important
not to to. I think we're very quick to create
sort of an algorithm or a rule in terms of
how we would handle what someone says and what, of course.
Speaker 1 (12:36):
I mean the other everything's different and everyone's different.
Speaker 3 (12:38):
We all know that I'm looking for is the process.
So the first thing I would do is, really, like
I think any therapist really helped that person feel understood
and joined. So my first reaction might be just something like, wow,
that sounds really difficult, but I want to start working
(12:59):
with this in a way that joins them in the experience,
almost like we're together looking at something. Mm hmmm, So
I would then yeah, So then I could say something
like that sounds like a really well that is a
painful thought. Even when you say that, my stomach kind of.
Speaker 1 (13:16):
Just drops right, Yeah.
Speaker 3 (13:18):
What happens to you right there?
Speaker 1 (13:23):
Okay, And I'm just trying to get an idea of
this concept of acceptance. How might that weave into this.
Speaker 3 (13:33):
Well, it's it's huge, it's we will sometimes speak to
willingness as another term for acceptance, because so many clients
come in with these notions of acceptance, meaning that they're
supposed to somehow feel differently about it right that if
they accept then it will change what it is that
(13:55):
they're trying to accept. And we're really looking at radical
acceptance of what is, which includes the way you think
and feel about the trauma in this case. And so
it's a stance of being open to what's there to
be had in a way that isn't growing the struggle
(14:16):
by fighting against it or trying to change it. So
it's it's quite a skill that we're talking.
Speaker 1 (14:21):
About, Robin.
Speaker 4 (14:25):
Would you add to that, Well, I think I would,
and I didn't hear that. What we're helping people do
is take another perspective on the way they relate to themselves.
So we're trained over and over again that we shouldn't
feel particular ways, So you shouldn't feel crappy, for instance,
(14:47):
what you brought up earlier, And if you're feeling that,
what you need to do is figure out how to
stop feeling it and then you can live your life.
But the problem with PTSD is that people don't stop
feeling those things even when they're working really hard to
try to stop doing it, and the ways that they
try to stop actually lead to harm, for instance, substance use,
(15:12):
or getting out of relationships that are important or valuable
to them, or being hypervigilant and not being able to
go places because they don't feel safe. All of the
ways that people run from their own emotional experience to
try to tame it and get rid of it, because
that's the message. If you feel bad, get rid of
(15:33):
that so you can feel good. But the problem is
is that people sacrifice their lives to try to feel good.
Speaker 2 (15:41):
And so what we want to do with acceptances.
Speaker 4 (15:44):
Take a new perspective that maybe running is the problem,
not the emotional experience itself.
Speaker 2 (15:51):
And so we want.
Speaker 4 (15:52):
People to observe their experience and engage life now rather
than wait to engage life when they feel better.
Speaker 2 (16:00):
I want them to live well.
Speaker 4 (16:01):
Does that make like rather than working on feeling good,
we're going to work on feeling what you feel and
living well?
Speaker 1 (16:09):
Right right? Yeah, I mean it makes perfect sense. And
I think as we all know, again that's that's a
hard calls. That can be a tough call for a
lot of us. Let me just remind everyone I'm speaking
with Daryl Westrup and Robin Wallzer. The new book is
called You Are Not Alone in a CC Guide for
(16:30):
Healing from Within.
Speaker 2 (16:33):
The guy, can I say you are not your trauma?
Speaker 1 (16:36):
You were not your trauma? What did I say?
Speaker 2 (16:37):
You are not alone? But they're not alone? You are trauma?
Speaker 3 (16:42):
Could be another subtitle.
Speaker 1 (16:45):
Thank you for that, Thank you for that correction, you
are not your trauma and act guide for Healing from Within?
All right, So why the book? Why did you write
this book?
Speaker 3 (17:01):
Shall I go or do you wanna take it?
Speaker 4 (17:04):
Well, I'm happy to talk about it for a number
of reasons and BO and some of those are just
personal for me and there like, we wanna help people
who are suffering from trauma, and there's not enough therapists
to do that, and so this book is an offering
for those people out there who either can't afford therapy,
(17:25):
don't have insurance, and for those who do like it's
a it's a terrific book for people who are struggling
with trauma and want to find a way to work
through it. So it's a way to reach a lot
more people, and it's a way to share with folks
what we've found to be healing, and we wanna offer
that to trauma survivors uh finding a new way to
(17:49):
engage their life. It's not just about running, hiding and fighting,
but it's about getting out there and doing values based
living in this one short life that we have.
Speaker 1 (18:01):
We'll see more about this, this value concepts you've mentioned
it before. How does that come in? Where does that
come in with act?
Speaker 2 (18:12):
Well, so we.
Speaker 4 (18:16):
A lot of people are focused on getting rid of symptoms,
like let me not feel what I feel as I
was mentioning earlier, and what gets sacrificed is how you're living.
And you know, Darren and I have thought about this
and the number of times and that you know, death ism,
(18:36):
and for everybody, you have a short time to be here,
and so how do you want to spend that time
becomes a really important question. And for those who've been traumatized,
it's like their time has been stolen by the emotional
experiences that they're struggling with, in the memories that they're
struggling with. And we want to see if we can
get folks reoriented to living in ways.
Speaker 2 (18:58):
That create meeting based.
Speaker 4 (19:00):
On their values, based on what matters to them, so
that it's not just about opening up to experience and
learning that these emotions and sensations are not dangerous.
Speaker 2 (19:12):
It's also about okay, and now where do you want
to go? What do you want to build.
Speaker 4 (19:17):
For yourself in your life? What root truly matters to you,
and what would that look like? And so we want
to understand people's values, see what they care about, and
then help them engage in behaviors that get.
Speaker 2 (19:30):
Them oriented in that direction. I don't know if you'd
have anything, Dad, No, I thought.
Speaker 3 (19:37):
That was a nice description. I was thinking of the
many people we've worked with over the years who when
you said that their life had been stolen. And I
was thinking also, especially with some of the veterans that
we worked with, who felt that they no longer deserve
their values because of things seen and done and experience.
(19:58):
And so it is pretty meaningful work to help people
contact values like a point on a compass that's always there,
regardless of what's gone before, that they can connect to
and care about, and they in the next moment can
choose what they will care about and whether the next
step they take in my life is toward that value
(20:21):
or not, and that stands regardless. And I've felt that
was a really precious message that came out of this work.
Speaker 1 (20:31):
Robin, you talked a little bit about the book UH
being accessible for people maybe who don't have access to
therapy or even an ad jump to people who do,
But more specifically, who who's the book for?
Speaker 4 (20:46):
Well, I think anyone who is struggling with trauma, including
complex trauma, which means somebody has had multiple different types
of trauma and usually across on a lifespan or a
during childhood, so childhood sexual or physical abuse or severe neglect.
But then they've also had other forms of trauma. So
(21:09):
complex means multiple forms of trauma. And by the way,
the clients that Dare and I see are often in
that category. They have not just had one trauma, they
have had many traumas. So anybody who falls into that
category or even has a single trauma, like maybe they
were in a car accident and they're having a really
(21:31):
hard time, or they were the victim of violence, that
it's really there for anybody who's experienced or struggles with
the fallout of.
Speaker 2 (21:43):
A traumatic experience.
Speaker 4 (21:46):
Clinicians too, by the way, yeah, yeah, yeah, Okay.
Speaker 3 (21:51):
I had a clinician mentioned to me that she's been
waiting for a book that would help her really help
her clients. And I love thinking about the book being
used in that way.
Speaker 1 (22:06):
So obviously there are many modalities out there. How does
how would you say act within the context of trauma
is different? What does it do differently? What's the perspective
that's different?
Speaker 4 (22:26):
Okay, but you want me to start this one there
or would you like to take a swing at it?
Speaker 3 (22:30):
Go ahead, go ahead, okay.
Speaker 4 (22:33):
So but by the way, guy, just for folks out
there in the world who will be listening.
Speaker 2 (22:38):
We usually refer to it as ACT.
Speaker 4 (22:40):
And not ACT because there's another therapy called ACT out there,
and so we say it is one word act, and
it also speaks to the therapy itself. So if you
hear us saying act, we're referring to you.
Speaker 1 (22:56):
Got it? Yeah, thank you for that.
Speaker 4 (22:58):
Yeah, just a general a term that people are used
to in the act world, as they call it ACT.
So it's different because fundamentally, and this is one of
the things that I appreciated about it when I first
contacted it, is that you treat the person as a
whole human being, that they're not broken or dysfunctional or
(23:24):
irrational or illogical about anything that's going on inside their skin.
This is an approach that says you're a whole human
being as you are. And the struggle is in that
you've been told you shouldn't feel certain things, and if
you've been traumatized, you're going to feel stuff. Things are
(23:46):
going to show up there and it's naturally part of
what you're going to feel.
Speaker 2 (23:51):
The problem is some people just get stuck, and largely
what makes them stuck.
Speaker 4 (23:55):
Is there don't want to feel what they're feeling and
it isn't allowed to process through, and so we're going
to approach them from a position of your whole. To start,
you're not dysfunctional, you're not broken, you're not a bag
of symptoms. You're a human being who's had an experience
(24:18):
that would elicit these kinds of arousals and emotional states
and memories, and we're going to help you learn how
to relate to those in a way that they no
longer impact what you choose to do in your life.
And so a lot of other therapies are about this
is a dysfunctional, disordered process, and what we need to
(24:40):
do is fix your disorder, get rid of the dysfunctional
pieces of it, and that would be the treatment.
Speaker 2 (24:48):
And so we depart in that space.
Speaker 4 (24:52):
We're not going to try to make you think differently,
so to speak, like you have to get rid of
certain thoughts or memories or negative evaluations of yourself, but
instead seem for what they are learned behaviors that you
got a long time ago, that don't have to be
in charge of your life.
Speaker 2 (25:12):
That many many, many human beings have.
Speaker 4 (25:15):
Right, Like, we all have negative thoughts about ourselves.
Speaker 2 (25:18):
But that's not your fault.
Speaker 4 (25:20):
You learned that you didn't come out and you weren't
born with negative thoughts, you learned them, and so we're
going to help you create a different relationship with them
where they no longer have the impact that they seem
to have.
Speaker 2 (25:33):
And Dre, I don't know if you want to add
to or about the distincle.
Speaker 3 (25:36):
It's so interesting, guy, would you ask them these questions?
Like I have a quick little montage of people that
I've worked with over the years, and I was I
just had this memory of sitting in my office at
the VA with yet another a woman coming into the
program and getting her initial interview, and they're talking about
(26:02):
how excited she was and how long she'd waited to
get in, and how we were going to change your
life and how she was going to change your life
to just having this huge sense of setup, right that
she's set up, we're set up, and a feeling like
if I look deep in her eyes, I was seeing fear.
(26:24):
Because if you ask the right questions and you keep asking,
you get you the right question. What you get to
is I wanted to be gone. I wanted to not
have happened, and I'm not okay until that's gone and
not happened, and there's already this sense of hopelessness because
we all know that can't occur. And until ACT, and
(26:48):
until Acting in on board into our program, we didn't
know how to address that. And it offered a way like, yes,
that sense of that what you're wanting is not possible,
you're right, and there is a way to hold this.
There is a way to have a vital life, to
(27:10):
feel whole and intact even with this, And prior to
this therapy, I didn't hadn't found a way to help
someone who had never had the experience of feeling acceptable
or whole contact that and live from that place. ACT
offers that, And we can't get there if people are
(27:30):
stuck in the battle of trying and get rid.
Speaker 1 (27:32):
Of what is mm hmm like setting up this duality.
This is bad and I have to get rid of.
Speaker 3 (27:41):
It, and I'm bad as long.
Speaker 1 (27:43):
As I have it right, right, right. Well, there's something
as you both were talking, there's something I was feeling.
How much sense pressure or ease I would feel if
(28:07):
I walked into either of your offices and heard what
you were saying. I'm not saying it would be easy
to accept but there's that that that different perspective. It
feels very to me like martial arts is coming up,
you know, moving with not against yes. And that's again
(28:33):
it's not always easy to do because all this crap
and ship we're experiencing in shame and yeah, we want
to get rid of it and we don't want it
to have we want it not to have happened.
Speaker 4 (28:52):
Wow, there's a real paradox interestingly in wanting to not
have your internal variance, right. The struggles like if you
want to get rid of a memory, which many people
who've been traumatized do. They don't want to think about
the bad thing that happened to them, but it's intruding, right,
Like that's the and so you do something like I
(29:15):
want that memory to go away. Then you've had and
you keep doing that. What you're doing is having more
interaction with the memory. So if you want to memorize something,
what do you do? You repeat it again and again
and again, and so then people are in there, I
don't want the memory. I don't want the memory.
Speaker 2 (29:32):
What memory? The one that I'm saying I don't.
Speaker 4 (29:33):
Want, repeat, repeat, And so it gets bigger.
Speaker 2 (29:37):
Do you see how it got bigger, not smaller.
Speaker 4 (29:40):
And so our job isn't to like help them figure
out how to excavate something out of their mind, but
to be present to it, have some compassion for your experience,
let it flow and be. And it isn't Eastern has
Eastern philosophical flavors in there, right, you can hear it,
let it come and goal.
Speaker 2 (30:03):
It's the not letting it go that.
Speaker 4 (30:05):
Actually creates more of the suffering if you don't want to.
It's hard to not have a thought, like if I
said right now, like you guys don't think a thought
and it's next second or two like it's impossible. So
people take control that they can do out here, Like
you can move things around in your environment, So why
(30:25):
can't I move things around inside my skin?
Speaker 2 (30:28):
Because it doesn't work that way.
Speaker 4 (30:31):
It's it's not the thing they're inside your skin that's
the problem. It's the trying to control them that's the problem.
And so this is where Dara and I can come
in and look at where control is effective and look
at where it's not and it's not effective and trying
not to feel. We're built to feel. That's a very
(30:52):
human experience, and we want to have compassion and humanity
for that experience. We want to help people come back
to knowing what it means to be a human being.
Speaker 3 (31:03):
All the good stuff is there too.
Speaker 2 (31:05):
Yeah, good stuff is there to do.
Speaker 4 (31:07):
By the way, if you if you're suppressing emotion, you
can't suppress. You don't get to choose which ones you're
gonna suppress. Like we are not very good as human beings.
That's saying I don't want to feel anxiety, so I'm
going to suppress that one.
Speaker 2 (31:22):
What you end up doing is suppressing at all.
Speaker 4 (31:24):
And so if you don't want to feel anxiety, you're
also cutting yourself off from joy. You open up to
the flow of experience, then you open up to joy
as well. And Darre and I want our clients to
feel joy like that is on the agenda because joy
feels like it's not there, it's not available until I
(31:45):
get rid of this trauma. And what we want to say, No,
it's there, it's a it's available, and when you get that,
let's bring it into your life.
Speaker 1 (31:56):
So as we kind of wind down, here are our
You're obviously you're not saying you know. Obviously you're not
saying you know someone comes into your office and they're
having all these symptoms. You're you're not saying, you know,
shut up and deal with the symptoms. I'm just I'm
(32:18):
just making making a point. But you know that's not
very emphathic. But you're you're you're in one tn You're saying,
you know, looking at it, being with it is one
way of managing or or dealing with it correct dancing
(32:40):
within in a sense.
Speaker 2 (32:42):
Dancing with it, I said, probably a better metaphor.
Speaker 1 (32:45):
Okay, I'm putting myself in our listener's seat here. What
are other ways that you might deal or work or
address these symptoms that someone is coming into your office with?
Or is that the entirety this process of learning to
(33:08):
be with and to bring in one values and as
you were speaking with about earlier, Robin, is looking at
someone's values and seeing what does light them up in
their life.
Speaker 5 (33:23):
Well, there's a set of skills that are very interrelated
that all are pulled into play, and I see our
work as helping our clients develop those skills.
Speaker 3 (33:39):
But I think I would really want the listener to
understand and anyone considering learning more about this is that
it's a deeply as Robin pointed, to it. It's a
deeply compassionate therapy, and we are not saying you need
to think and feel differently about this. Quite the opposite.
We're helping. We're joining in that difficult experience, the human
(34:02):
nature experience of how we experience difficult things, what we
do that tend to make those things even more difficult,
and how we might hold them in a way that
allows us to re engage in the good lives. But
that is not in any way suggesting that they should
(34:23):
be thinking and feeling differently. We're joining in that experience
of suffering and kind of boldly pointing to that, saying,
you know, there's a reason why, on top of the
pain of this experience you're struggling, let's talk about that
pass But it's not a hey, you need to work with.
Speaker 2 (34:44):
This differently true well in symptoms.
Speaker 4 (34:48):
Interestingly enough, if you look at the research data, although
symptoms are not the target of the treatment, like, we're
not saying let's go take that symptom and push it
down that we're saying, let's go see what you're feeling
and open up to it, which might sound a little
bit scary to some people, but it's actually moving through
(35:08):
and showing exposing yourself to your emotional experience, and what
you learn is that they're not dangerous.
Speaker 2 (35:15):
Emotions are not dangerous, they're not harmful. Memories are not.
Speaker 4 (35:19):
Harmful, and so we want people to learn that. But
when we do that work, people report that their symptoms
go down. But we're not targeting their symptoms. But part
of it is is that they've stopped that battle that
you're pointing to. And when you stop the battle, turns
out your symptoms.
Speaker 2 (35:43):
Yeah, and so and there.
Speaker 4 (35:45):
You know, we do some work that's called a selfish
context or perspective taking. We help people connect to a
larger sense of self that can.
Speaker 2 (35:55):
Hold all experience.
Speaker 4 (35:56):
We work on mindfulness and presence and being aware and
tracking what's happening for you in your life and what
the consequences of your own behavior are so that you
can shift and change and adapt and vary in ways
that are going to help you depending on the context
that you're in. So you know, we're we're not just
saying let's open up to this, like we're doing a
(36:18):
lot of different things in.
Speaker 2 (36:19):
The room and in the book as well.
Speaker 4 (36:22):
We're walking people through these different processes to help establish
a sense of being willing and moving into acceptance as
a way of walking through the world with your values
intact and being lived.
Speaker 2 (36:35):
Out as a process not an outcome. Right, Does that
makes sense?
Speaker 4 (36:40):
Like you don't arrive in your values, you don't arrive
at loving and go I'm done with that one.
Speaker 2 (36:46):
Loving is always there to be done.
Speaker 4 (36:47):
And so how do I keep doing that as I
move through life, even when I come against other challenges?
Speaker 2 (36:53):
And if you've got.
Speaker 4 (36:54):
New learning on board, you've learned a new way, you're
going to be able to do that versus continent and
youing to battle yourself forever. I mean, Darren and I
have worked with veterans who are you know, in their
seventies in eighties, and they're telling us things like I've
been struggling with.
Speaker 2 (37:11):
This all my life.
Speaker 4 (37:13):
All my life, I've been burying this burden and it
didn't have to be that way. And so, you know,
we want to We hope that people listening can hear
it doesn't have to be something that.
Speaker 2 (37:28):
You bear the burden of your whole life. It can
be about something else.
Speaker 4 (37:34):
And that's the work we want to that's the work
we want to do, and that's the work that's in the.
Speaker 1 (37:38):
Book once again. The book is called You Are Not
Your Trauma and Act Guide for Healing from Within by
doctors Robin Wallser and Darah Westrup. Dar Let's start with you.
What's the best way for people to learn more about
what you're doing.
Speaker 3 (37:56):
Well, I'm on LinkedIn. You can find me doctor Darrek
west there, and I'm on Instagram, and i have a
web page dub dub doctor Dara dot com, which I
know is doctor Phil but hey, and I try to
keep my activities updated there and we'd love to welcome
(38:19):
you all to join me in whatever way interests you.
Speaker 4 (38:23):
Awesome, how about you, Robin, Yeah, I've got a website,
Robin Walser dot com where people can learn about the
trainings and consultation and treatment that I'm doing. I've also
got an Instagram account, Facebook account, and blue Sky account
(38:44):
and so. But people can connect to all of these
on Robin Walser dot com. They're all there, and if
they're interested, they can follow in me those in those places.
I put out a newsletter on a monthly basis that
a lot of folks have been quite interested in and
so if people want to join me there they can
do that as well awesome.
Speaker 1 (39:03):
And we'll have each of those, all of those linked
up here at the show notes page at the Trauma
theaprispodcast dot com. Both of you, thank you so much. Obviously,
there's a lot to talk about and I'd love to
have you back at a later date. Both awesome. Thank
you so much for being here, and we'll be in touch.
Thanks all right, take care,
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