January 9, 2025 • 13 mins
What draws people to places marked by tragedy and suffering? Join me as we explore the fascinating and often misunderstood world of dark tourism on "The Traveling Fool." We examine why sites like Auschwitz, Pompeii, and the Hiroshima Peace Memorial attract millions each year—is it morbid curiosity or a deeper quest for understanding and connection with history? I share my personal experiences visiting Civil War battlefields and Alcatraz, driven by a passion for history rather than a fascination with death. Together, we navigate the ethical considerations of this type of travel, particularly in today’s social media landscape, and uncover how modern travel has increased the accessibility of these powerful destinations.
Beyond just exploring these weighty themes, I invite you to become more engaged with our vibrant community. Subscribe to the podcast and join our mailing list for monthly newsletters packed with travel news, contests, and intriguing content, all while ensuring your personal information remains private. Running this as a one-man show, I am deeply committed to protecting your privacy and fostering a supportive environment. Thank you for your continued support, and remember, the world is full of stories waiting to be uncovered, one journey at a time. Safe travels!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Bob Bales (00:00):
Hi and welcome to the Traveling Fool, the show where
we explore the most intriguingaspects of travel, culture and
history.
I'm your host, Bob Bales, andtoday we are talking about a
fascinating and sometimescontroversial subject dark
tourism.
You may have heard the termbefore, but what does it really
mean?
Why are millions of peopledrawn to visit places associated
(00:23):
with tragedy, death and themacabre?
Maybe you've been participatingin dark travel without even
realizing it.
I know I have Stay tuned andwe'll dive in and uncover the
answers.
Hi and welcome back to theTraveling Fool, and this week we
(00:51):
are talking about dark tourism.
Now, in 2024, over 1.8 millionpeople visited the
Auschwitz-Birkenau concentrationcamp in Poland, the place where
more than a million people,mostly Jews, sadly lost their
lives during Nazi's World War IIHolocaust.
(01:12):
Dark tourism takes us to placeswhere history's darkest
chapters unfolded.
But is it about education,morbid curiosity or something
deeper?
Well, first let's start withthe basics.
Dark tourism is defined astraveling to sites associated
with death, tragedy andsuffering.
Now, these aren't your typicalbeach vacations or sightseeing
(01:35):
tours.
Instead, these destinationsoften carry heavy emotional and
historical weight, and some ofthe best known and most
well-known dark tourism sitesinclude Auschwitz in Poland,
pompeii, the Hiroshima PeaceMemorial in Japan, ground Zero
in New York and Alcatraz in SanFrancisco.
(01:55):
So how does dark tourism differfrom general historical tourism
?
Well, it's often aboutconfronting the uncomfortable
truths of our past.
That's if you listen to thepeople that have defined this.
While historical tourism mightfocus on grand achievements or
cultural heritage, dark tourismdelves into the tragedies and
(02:15):
horrors that have shapedhumanity.
That is the accepted definition.
So, according to them, I'vebeen practicing dark tourism
since I was about eight yearsold.
I remember family vacations.
We were big on going tohistorical sites, and those
included Civil War battlefields.
I saw Alcatraz when I was a kidand to me it wasn't about
(02:39):
morbid curiosity or anythingelse, it was about history.
I was very interested inhistory.
I've always loved militaryhistory.
So wherever I've traveledaround the world, I've gone to
military battlefields andmilitary cemeteries and castles
and dungeons and places likethat, because to me it was
interesting, it was all abouthistory.
(03:00):
But they've defined that asdark tourism.
So let's get into it a littlemore.
Why does dark tourism draw somany people?
Well, it's a phenomenon that'sgrown in popularity over the
years, and the reasons behind itare as complex as the sites
themselves.
First, there's the humanfascination with death and
tragedy.
Some call it memento mori youdidn't know I could speak
(03:22):
Italian, did you or reminders ofmortality.
Visiting these sites forces usto confront our own humanity and
the fragility of life.
But, like I said, for me it'sjust always been about history.
For some, though, it's even athrill.
There's an adrenaline rush andstanding in a place where it's
so charged with history and it'sdeeply educational, and I think
(03:43):
that's what it boiled down tofor me.
These sites often serve aspowerful reminders of the past,
teaching us lessons about warand genocide and human
resilience.
For example, visiting a placelike the 9-11 Memorial isn't
just about remembering thetragedy, it's about
understanding its impact on theworld.
And then for others, it's verypersonal.
(04:04):
Maybe their ancestors wereaffected by these events, or
they feel a cultural oremotional connection to the
story.
You know, standing wherehistory happened can create a
profound sense of empathy andunderstanding.
And, of course, in today's world, we can't forget social media.
Platforms like Instagram haveturned dark tourism sites into
(04:25):
edgy travel destinations whereyou see the so-called
influencers running aroundshowing you all these sites.
But you know that raisesethical questions.
Are we trivializing theseplaces by turning them into
backdrops for selfies.
But you know, dark tourismisn't really anything new.
People have been visiting sitestied to death and tragedy for
(04:45):
centuries.
You know, as early as the 19thcentury, battlefield tours were
popular, with people travelingto places like Gettysburg and
Waterloo to witness theaftermath of war.
Even earlier, public executionsin medieval Europe drew crowds
as a form of grim entertainment.
And today, since I'm veryinterested in military history,
I keep up with some of thisstuff.
(05:05):
There are two very big tourcompanies that run World War II
historical tours in Europe andthe Pacific and they go to
places like Iwo Jima andNormandy and all these places
that famous battles or infamousbattles during World War II took
place, and they have no problemfilling up those tours.
(05:27):
There are people just clamoringto go.
And today there's affordabletravel and global media coverage
.
It's made it easier than everto visit places like the killing
fields in Cambodia or Chernobylbefore Ukraine and Russia
decided to make it a modernkilling zone.
And since I've always beeninterested in history, I could
name off dozens of places thatqualify as dark tourism that
(05:50):
I've visited.
I've visited several Civil Warbattlefields.
I've visited the Little Bighorn, famous battle with General
George Custer.
I've seen Alcatraz.
I've visited Civil War forts inthe South.
I've also visited plantations.
All of those could beconsidered dark tourism If you
go overseas.
(06:11):
I've visited the Tower ofLondon.
I've taken a Jack the Rippertour, I've visited the American
Military Museum in Manila.
I've visited the very firstprison in London which by any
kind of modern standard would beconsidered torture.
So I've visited all kinds ofplaces that are considered dark
tourism.
But to me it was just learningabout history and seeing places
(06:31):
that I read about as a kid.
I mean, I read about the Battleof Gettysburg and when you get
to visit the battlefield ittakes a whole new, different
meaning.
But somewhere around the 1900sor around the 1990s, I should
say, the term dark tourism kindof took hold in academic circles
and since then it's become aglobal phenomenon.
(06:53):
But as fascinating as darktourism is, it's not without
controversy and we can talkabout the implications, both
positive and negative.
One of the biggest debates isabout exploitation.
Are we profiting from tragedy?
For example, some sites havegift shops selling souvenirs and
a lot of people find that verydistasteful.
(07:13):
And then there's the issue ofbehavior Taking selfies at
places like Auschwitz or GroundZero or Hiroshima.
All that comes across asincredibly disrespectful and yet
you can read about it almostevery month or two.
There's some idiot touristdoing it, and it's usually
somebody who claims to be somekind of social media influencer,
(07:35):
who stands there flashing asilly grin and throwing his
fingers up in front of some sitewith a big grin on his face, or
even worse.
I mean, all you have to do isGoogle some of these terrible
tourists just disrespectingcultural locations or dark
tourism sites and you'll find awhole list of them.
Some of you may remember thatseveral years ago I don't know
(07:58):
30, 40 years ago there was anorganization called the People's
Temple, run by a fellow by thename of Jim Jones in Guyana.
Well, they've been in the newslately.
He established a little areadown there, he called it
Jonestown and it had about athousand people there at one
time.
Well, if you haven't ever heardof it, you can read up on it.
(08:19):
But back in 1978, 918 peopledied at the settlement and at a
nearby airstrip where theydecided to attack people who
were there checking to seeexactly what was going on.
Like, I believe there was a USsenator or congressman there Leo
Ryan, I think, was his name andseveral others that his
(08:41):
followers shot and killed andthen went back and they all
drank the Kool-Aid.
You heard the term peopledrinking the Kool-Aid.
Well, that's where it came from.
They poisoned the Kool-Aid andeverybody drank the Kool-Aid and
died.
Well, it's been in the newslately because they want to turn
that into a tourist site.
A lot of survivors fromJonestown people who managed to
leave before all this happenedand escape the cult are totally
(09:04):
against it.
But the people of Guyana arethinking about doing it as a way
of educating the public and,let's face it, they want to get
the money for the site.
But it's been in the news hererecently, which brings up the
second thing culturalsensitivity.
It's important to consider theimpact on local communities.
Are these sites helping topreserve history or are they
(09:26):
becoming commercialized at theexpense of their cultural and
historic significance?
I guess it depends on the siteand who's running them.
Now, what about future trends?
Looking ahead, dark tourism islikely to keep growing.
With a lot of advancements intechnology, we're probably going
to see more virtual tours ofinaccessible sites or even
(09:47):
augmented reality experiencesthat can bring history to life.
The challenge is going to bebalancing innovation with
respect.
My philosophy has always been,when you visit places that are
historically important, nomatter what happened there,
whether it was a battlefield orwhatever happened there, it's
history and treat it withrespect and as a learning
(10:09):
experience and education.
To me, that's all they are, anda lot of people say well, how
could you write about certainplaces like plantations?
Well, because it's history.
Yeah, but they kept slavesthere?
Yes, they did.
They also grew crops there andthey did all kinds of things
there.
It's history.
I visited the Tower of London.
The Tower of London was knownfor a lot of torture.
(10:29):
It's history, and to me,history has always been
something very interesting andexciting Military history,
visiting battlefields wherethousands and thousands of
soldiers died on both sides,whether it was Americans and
Germans, or Americans andJapanese, or British and Zulus,
or whatever it is.
It's history, and I think a lotof people don't really
(10:51):
understand and know history, andby visiting a lot of these
places you can learn about it,and if you read about it, it
brings it to life.
So dark tourism is kind of awindow into man's darkest
moments, whether it be a battle,an oppression of a people, a
prison.
It's more, though, than justabout visiting a place.
It's about understanding andreflection and learning.
(11:12):
But, like I said, it comes withthe responsibilities.
When we travel to these sites,we need to ask ourselves are we
approaching them with respectand mindfulness that they
deserve, or are you going to belike some of the people that pop
up in the news and scrawl yourname on the wall of a place that
should not be damaged?
(11:32):
Are you going to take a selfiein front of something where
people died?
Are you going to get yourfriends together and jump up in
the air so you can make thatlittle iconic Instagram photo at
a site that is there forremembrance, or are you there to
learn about the place and whathappened and treat it with
respect?
You know I'd like to reallyhear your thoughts on the topic
and whether or not you'vevisited any dark tourism sites
(11:55):
or, if you haven't, would youconsider it and what your
experience was like.
And you can share your storywith me on email.
Just drop me a line at editorat thetravelingfoolcom, and
we'll mention them maybe in afuture podcast.
And if you enjoyed this episode,don't forget to subscribe and
leave a review.
And if you haven't done italready signed up for our
(12:17):
mailing list.
I send out a monthly newsletter.
It goes out I can guaranteejust about every month, but
there are a couple of monthsthat I might skip and it lists
travel news and contests andthings like that in there.
I never sell your info, I nevergive it to anybody, it's just
me.
I'm a one-man show.
So that's it for this week andthanks for joining me, and as
(12:38):
always, safe travels
Hi and welcome to the Traveling Fool, the show where
we explore the most intriguingaspects of travel, culture and
history.
I'm your host, Bob Bales, andtoday we are talking about a
fascinating and sometimescontroversial subject dark
tourism.
You may have heard the termbefore, but what does it really
mean?
Why are millions of peopledrawn to visit places associated
(00:23):
with tragedy, death and themacabre?
Maybe you've been participatingin dark travel without even
realizing it.
I know I have Stay tuned andwe'll dive in and uncover the
answers.
Hi and welcome back to theTraveling Fool, and this week we
(00:51):
are talking about dark tourism.
Now, in 2024, over 1.8 millionpeople visited the
Auschwitz-Birkenau concentrationcamp in Poland, the place where
more than a million people,mostly Jews, sadly lost their
lives during Nazi's World War IIHolocaust.
(01:12):
Dark tourism takes us to placeswhere history's darkest
chapters unfolded.
But is it about education,morbid curiosity or something
deeper?
Well, first let's start withthe basics.
Dark tourism is defined astraveling to sites associated
with death, tragedy andsuffering.
Now, these aren't your typicalbeach vacations or sightseeing
(01:35):
tours.
Instead, these destinationsoften carry heavy emotional and
historical weight, and some ofthe best known and most
well-known dark tourism sitesinclude Auschwitz in Poland,
pompeii, the Hiroshima PeaceMemorial in Japan, ground Zero
in New York and Alcatraz in SanFrancisco.
(01:55):
So how does dark tourism differfrom general historical tourism
?
Well, it's often aboutconfronting the uncomfortable
truths of our past.
That's if you listen to thepeople that have defined this.
While historical tourism mightfocus on grand achievements or
cultural heritage, dark tourismdelves into the tragedies and
(02:15):
horrors that have shapedhumanity.
That is the accepted definition.
So, according to them, I'vebeen practicing dark tourism
since I was about eight yearsold.
I remember family vacations.
We were big on going tohistorical sites, and those
included Civil War battlefields.
I saw Alcatraz when I was a kidand to me it wasn't about
(02:39):
morbid curiosity or anythingelse, it was about history.
I was very interested inhistory.
I've always loved militaryhistory.
So wherever I've traveledaround the world, I've gone to
military battlefields andmilitary cemeteries and castles
and dungeons and places likethat, because to me it was
interesting, it was all abouthistory.
(03:00):
But they've defined that asdark tourism.
So let's get into it a littlemore.
Why does dark tourism draw somany people?
Well, it's a phenomenon that'sgrown in popularity over the
years, and the reasons behind itare as complex as the sites
themselves.
First, there's the humanfascination with death and
tragedy.
Some call it memento mori youdidn't know I could speak
(03:22):
Italian, did you or reminders ofmortality.
Visiting these sites forces usto confront our own humanity and
the fragility of life.
But, like I said, for me it'sjust always been about history.
For some, though, it's even athrill.
There's an adrenaline rush andstanding in a place where it's
so charged with history and it'sdeeply educational, and I think
(03:43):
that's what it boiled down tofor me.
These sites often serve aspowerful reminders of the past,
teaching us lessons about warand genocide and human
resilience.
For example, visiting a placelike the 9-11 Memorial isn't
just about remembering thetragedy, it's about
understanding its impact on theworld.
And then for others, it's verypersonal.
(04:04):
Maybe their ancestors wereaffected by these events, or
they feel a cultural oremotional connection to the
story.
You know, standing wherehistory happened can create a
profound sense of empathy andunderstanding.
And, of course, in today's world, we can't forget social media.
Platforms like Instagram haveturned dark tourism sites into
(04:25):
edgy travel destinations whereyou see the so-called
influencers running aroundshowing you all these sites.
But you know that raisesethical questions.
Are we trivializing theseplaces by turning them into
backdrops for selfies.
But you know, dark tourismisn't really anything new.
People have been visiting sitestied to death and tragedy for
(04:45):
centuries.
You know, as early as the 19thcentury, battlefield tours were
popular, with people travelingto places like Gettysburg and
Waterloo to witness theaftermath of war.
Even earlier, public executionsin medieval Europe drew crowds
as a form of grim entertainment.
And today, since I'm veryinterested in military history,
I keep up with some of thisstuff.
(05:05):
There are two very big tourcompanies that run World War II
historical tours in Europe andthe Pacific and they go to
places like Iwo Jima andNormandy and all these places
that famous battles or infamousbattles during World War II took
place, and they have no problemfilling up those tours.
(05:27):
There are people just clamoringto go.
And today there's affordabletravel and global media coverage
.
It's made it easier than everto visit places like the killing
fields in Cambodia or Chernobylbefore Ukraine and Russia
decided to make it a modernkilling zone.
And since I've always beeninterested in history, I could
name off dozens of places thatqualify as dark tourism that
(05:50):
I've visited.
I've visited several Civil Warbattlefields.
I've visited the Little Bighorn, famous battle with General
George Custer.
I've seen Alcatraz.
I've visited Civil War forts inthe South.
I've also visited plantations.
All of those could beconsidered dark tourism If you
go overseas.
(06:11):
I've visited the Tower ofLondon.
I've taken a Jack the Rippertour, I've visited the American
Military Museum in Manila.
I've visited the very firstprison in London which by any
kind of modern standard would beconsidered torture.
So I've visited all kinds ofplaces that are considered dark
tourism.
But to me it was just learningabout history and seeing places
(06:31):
that I read about as a kid.
I mean, I read about the Battleof Gettysburg and when you get
to visit the battlefield ittakes a whole new, different
meaning.
But somewhere around the 1900sor around the 1990s, I should
say, the term dark tourism kindof took hold in academic circles
and since then it's become aglobal phenomenon.
(06:53):
But as fascinating as darktourism is, it's not without
controversy and we can talkabout the implications, both
positive and negative.
One of the biggest debates isabout exploitation.
Are we profiting from tragedy?
For example, some sites havegift shops selling souvenirs and
a lot of people find that verydistasteful.
(07:13):
And then there's the issue ofbehavior Taking selfies at
places like Auschwitz or GroundZero or Hiroshima.
All that comes across asincredibly disrespectful and yet
you can read about it almostevery month or two.
There's some idiot touristdoing it, and it's usually
somebody who claims to be somekind of social media influencer,
(07:35):
who stands there flashing asilly grin and throwing his
fingers up in front of some sitewith a big grin on his face, or
even worse.
I mean, all you have to do isGoogle some of these terrible
tourists just disrespectingcultural locations or dark
tourism sites and you'll find awhole list of them.
Some of you may remember thatseveral years ago I don't know
(07:58):
30, 40 years ago there was anorganization called the People's
Temple, run by a fellow by thename of Jim Jones in Guyana.
Well, they've been in the newslately.
He established a little areadown there, he called it
Jonestown and it had about athousand people there at one
time.
Well, if you haven't ever heardof it, you can read up on it.
(08:19):
But back in 1978, 918 peopledied at the settlement and at a
nearby airstrip where theydecided to attack people who
were there checking to seeexactly what was going on.
Like, I believe there was a USsenator or congressman there Leo
Ryan, I think, was his name andseveral others that his
(08:41):
followers shot and killed andthen went back and they all
drank the Kool-Aid.
You heard the term peopledrinking the Kool-Aid.
Well, that's where it came from.
They poisoned the Kool-Aid andeverybody drank the Kool-Aid and
died.
Well, it's been in the newslately because they want to turn
that into a tourist site.
A lot of survivors fromJonestown people who managed to
leave before all this happenedand escape the cult are totally
(09:04):
against it.
But the people of Guyana arethinking about doing it as a way
of educating the public and,let's face it, they want to get
the money for the site.
But it's been in the news hererecently, which brings up the
second thing culturalsensitivity.
It's important to consider theimpact on local communities.
Are these sites helping topreserve history or are they
(09:26):
becoming commercialized at theexpense of their cultural and
historic significance?
I guess it depends on the siteand who's running them.
Now, what about future trends?
Looking ahead, dark tourism islikely to keep growing.
With a lot of advancements intechnology, we're probably going
to see more virtual tours ofinaccessible sites or even
(09:47):
augmented reality experiencesthat can bring history to life.
The challenge is going to bebalancing innovation with
respect.
My philosophy has always been,when you visit places that are
historically important, nomatter what happened there,
whether it was a battlefield orwhatever happened there, it's
history and treat it withrespect and as a learning
(10:09):
experience and education.
To me, that's all they are, anda lot of people say well, how
could you write about certainplaces like plantations?
Well, because it's history.
Yeah, but they kept slavesthere?
Yes, they did.
They also grew crops there andthey did all kinds of things
there.
It's history.
I visited the Tower of London.
The Tower of London was knownfor a lot of torture.
(10:29):
It's history, and to me,history has always been
something very interesting andexciting Military history,
visiting battlefields wherethousands and thousands of
soldiers died on both sides,whether it was Americans and
Germans, or Americans andJapanese, or British and Zulus,
or whatever it is.
It's history, and I think a lotof people don't really
(10:51):
understand and know history, andby visiting a lot of these
places you can learn about it,and if you read about it, it
brings it to life.
So dark tourism is kind of awindow into man's darkest
moments, whether it be a battle,an oppression of a people, a
prison.
It's more, though, than justabout visiting a place.
It's about understanding andreflection and learning.
(11:12):
But, like I said, it comes withthe responsibilities.
When we travel to these sites,we need to ask ourselves are we
approaching them with respectand mindfulness that they
deserve, or are you going to belike some of the people that pop
up in the news and scrawl yourname on the wall of a place that
should not be damaged?
(11:32):
Are you going to take a selfiein front of something where
people died?
Are you going to get yourfriends together and jump up in
the air so you can make thatlittle iconic Instagram photo at
a site that is there forremembrance, or are you there to
learn about the place and whathappened and treat it with
respect?
You know I'd like to reallyhear your thoughts on the topic
and whether or not you'vevisited any dark tourism sites
(11:55):
or, if you haven't, would youconsider it and what your
experience was like.
And you can share your storywith me on email.
Just drop me a line at editorat thetravelingfoolcom, and
we'll mention them maybe in afuture podcast.
And if you enjoyed this episode,don't forget to subscribe and
leave a review.
And if you haven't done italready signed up for our
(12:17):
mailing list.
I send out a monthly newsletter.
It goes out I can guaranteejust about every month, but
there are a couple of monthsthat I might skip and it lists
travel news and contests andthings like that in there.
I never sell your info, I nevergive it to anybody, it's just
me.
I'm a one-man show.
So that's it for this week andthanks for joining me, and as
(12:38):
always, safe travels
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