Chill Out: Cold Water Immersion for Triathletes

Ice baths, cryotherapy, cold showers (and more) are the new "it" thing for recovery. But does sports science actually support cold water as a positive body stimulus? Physical Therapist Dr. B.J. Leeper and Triathlon Coach Ken Presutti plunge into the podcast to share the benefits of cold water immersion. From the anti-inflammatory perks to body temperature regulation, and even boosting your metabolism, there are multiple reasons to get chilly in your training week. Our experts break down the appropriate temperature, give advice on how long to stay cold, and even discuss the importance of shocking your system. You'll be ready to yell "ice ice baby" as you jump into a cold shower after this chilling episode!

Episode Transcript

(00:01):
This is the Tridot podcast.
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(00:25):
special guests.
Join the conversation and andlet's improve together.
Together.
Hey everyone.
Welcome to the Tried Up Podcast.
If you've ever taken an icebath, gone for a cold plunge, or
done a little cryotherapysession, or if you've ever thought
about it but have neveractually done it, today's episode

(00:47):
is all about the therapeuticbenefits of cold immersion.
Super excited to learn about this.
I have never done any of thesemyself as a recovery methodology.
So excited to see what I canlearn today.
Should doing this as atriathlete or am I fine to lead this
out of my weekly routine?
We're going to find out fromour two experts.
First up, we have Dr.

(01:08):
BJ Leaper.
BJ is a triathlon coach and adoctor of physical therapy from the
University of Iowa College of Medicine.
We also have coach Ken Puri.
He's a triathlon coach withVictory Multi Sport out of Pittsburgh,
Pennsylvania.
And the rumor is that hedabbles in taking the occasional
ice bath.
So excited to talk with thesetwo guys.

(01:29):
Dr.
B.J.
leeper.
Coach Ken how are we doing today?
Doing well.
Thanks for having us.
Yeah, excited to be here.
Well, I am Andrew, the averagetriathlete, voice of the people and
captain of the middle of the pack.
As always.
We'll start off with a funwarmup question.
Then we'll get in to our cold,shivery main set conversation and
then wind things down withVanessa taking over for the coach.

(01:50):
Cooldown.
Tip of the week.
Lots of good stuff.
Let's get to it.
Time to warm up.
Let's get moving.
For today's warm up question,I have what I think is a very fun
triathlon.

(02:10):
Would you rather question and Dr.
BJ Leeper coach Ken what Iwant to know today is for your next
race, if you had to wear aweighted vest for one of the three
disciplines, the swim leg, thebike leg, or the run leg, in which
leg of the race are youwearing the weighted vest?

(02:31):
Coach Ken Wow.
I feel like the obvious answerhere is the run, but really?
Cause and so I think thatrucking has become such a thing.
I've got so many friends thatare in that they do rucking events.
I've participated in a few.
I think that's probably the goto Answer.

(02:52):
But, you know, maybe this goeshand in hand with the topic we're
going to cover today.
Like, the part of me thatlikes to torture myself almost feels
like maybe I'll pick the swim.
Yeah.
And it's so funny when I,whenever I ask one of these, you
know, for a ton of time I'llcome up with a new triathlon.
Would you rather.
And in my mind there's anobvious answer and it's the answer
that I lean towards.
And so I almost talk myselfout of asking these because I'm like,

(03:15):
oh, well, everybody's justgoing to say this, but then everybody
says different things and it'sso, it's so interesting.
So you've already answered ina way that I did not expect.
So I appreciate that.
My answer here is not the run,mainly because I am a injury prone
athlete, particularly if I dotoo much volume or too much intensity
on the run.
Try.
That helps keep me keep all ofthat in check.

(03:35):
It knows that by myphysiogenomics, it keeps me nice
and healthy.
Thank you, Tridot.
But if I run with a weightedadded weight, I just feel like that's
just an easy way just to blowsome part of my body out of proportion.
And so I am not touchingweight on the run.
Um, I am not a great swimmer.
I, I feel like I probablyalready have problems with my legs
sinking on the swim enough asit is.

(03:56):
So why do I want to add weightto that equation and, and struggle
with sinking any more than Ialready do?
Um, so I, I'm going to do iton the bike.
I, I know it's the longestportion of the race, and so I'm affecting
myself for the longest portionof the race.
But I feel like that's wheremy body would, would be less likely
to have a major issue becauseI have weight.
It would just slow me down alittle bit.

(04:17):
Right.
Probably be a little lessarrow, uh, everything.
But that's my answer.
Dr.
Leaper, what is this for you?
Well, I mean, I was thinkingmore like you, Andrew.
I was like, is why is thiseven a question?
Because it seems so obvious.
But then I started to thinkabout it a little bit more.
I'm like, well, maybe I'm notthinking of it.
Right.
And so I even started tocontemplate, well, maybe in the swim
because I'm a bad swimmer andhave poor body position where my

(04:40):
legs always drop.
I'm like, well, maybe if I putit on my torso, it would help my
torso in streamlining and liftmy legs.
But then I'm like, there's noway that's a good idea.
So I was thinking more the obvious.
Like you.
It, it would have to probablybe on the bike because I wouldn't
want the impact on the run.
But, but maybe it helped me onthe sense on the bike.

(05:00):
So.
Yeah, that was my, my kneejerk response too.
Yeah.
No, yeah.
And maybe bj, Like I, I usedto like, really struggle with pull
ups.
I wasn't great at pull ups anda buddy of mine in the gym made me
start doing pull ups with alittle bit of weight dangling from
a belt.
Not, not, not a lot, but justa little bit.
And it was hard.
But more importantly, fromthen on, whenever I would go to do

(05:21):
just body weight pull ups, itwas way easier than it used to be.
And all of a sudden I can dopull ups now.
This is years ago, but anyway,I wonder if it'd be like that, like
if, if we wore a weighted vestin the swim as guys who have poor
body positioning in the swim,when we took the weight off and tried
to swim normally again, will we.
Would we be better swimmersbecause we.
I don't know.
I don't know.
Ken.
Ken is a, a try out poolschool coach, so he can probably

(05:44):
tell us that that's a goodidea or a bad idea.
Ken.
I'm guessing it's a bad idea, right?
I'm gonna go with, yeah, bad idea.
But first, Andrew, tell us howit worked out.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'll getright on that.
Bj.
Right on that.
Straight to the pool afterthis recording.
Hey everybody, we're gonnathrow this question out to you, our
audience.
Make sure you're on the TryDot community hub.

(06:05):
If you're a Try Dot user,that's, that's a place where we pose
this question every single week.
Otherwise it is on Instagramand the Facebook.
I am tryout Facebook group.
So really excited to see howyou guys answer this question.
Is there anybody out there whowould want to wear the weighted vest
for the swim and be weightlessfor the bike and the run?
I don't know.
Can't wait to see what youguys have to say.
Find the question, let us know.

(06:27):
On to the main set.
Going in three, two, one.
All right, onto the main set.
And guys, I'm going to startthe main set today in an unconventional
way.
This isn't in our notes.
You guys didn't know this wascoming, but I'm making a quick triathlon

(06:48):
announcement of sorts.
For some people.
This will be like a big dealfor some people to Be like, why did
he even say this on the podcast?
I want to hear about beingcold in my recovery.
But me, Andrew Harley, host ofthe podcast, and Sarah Burney, the
editor for our podcast, areofficially coming out of pseudo retirement

(07:09):
to race a triathlon.
The both of us have beeninactive for just a little bit.
You know me, ever since I hadmy baby the last, she's now just
over two.
I haven't really raced in thattime period.
Sarah hasn't raced in over ayear now.
And both of us are signing upofficially for 70.3 Ruidoso, New

(07:29):
Mexico.
Sarah's in New Mexico, that'sher home state.
So for her it was like, oh mygosh, I have to go do this.
For me, it's not too far away.
So we're going to have a blastas a podcast team going out there,
taking on that course, givingus a reason to really get back to
being consistent in our training.
So you heard it here first.
Sarah and I are committing toRacing Ironman 70.3 Ruidosa, New

(07:49):
Mexico.
If that is also on your radar,we'll see you there.
Can't wait.
It's going to be fun.
Maybe I'll take a few icebaths between now and then as I get
my training going again.
We're about to find out.
So, Dr.
B.J.
leaper, let's throw thisquestion over to you.
I see all over Instagram, right?
All over Instagram, all oversocial media.
I'm sure for our athletes onTikTok, there's reels and reels and

(08:13):
reels and YouTube shorts andvideos of people dunking ice on their
heads, jumping into ice baths,soaking in ice, doing chirotherapy
sessions.
And it just seems like out ofnowhere that this blew up to be such
a trendy way to recover.
Why is cold exposure becomingsuch a big thing now?

(08:36):
Yeah, I mean it's, it's reallyinteresting, right?
And that's why we're devotinga whole podcast to it.
Because I think it's becomesuch a thing lately that you can't
not see it or have aconversation around it.
I think I read somewhere likeon Amazon like a couple years ago
or just a couple yearsfollowing the pandemic, like ice

(08:58):
bath sales increased like 10,000%.
Wow.
Over just short two year span.
So obviously it didn't used tobe a thing.
But then all of a sudden it'sa thing.
I even read a book.
It's almost been a decade ago now.
I think the book was writtenby Scott Carney.
It was called what Doesn'tKill Us.

(09:19):
And it was basically ScottCarney's following of Wim Hof, kind
of the iceman guru from theDutchman, who is just on these crazy
quests of physicalenvironmental feats of training.
And even then it was kind ofthis fad of like, hey, look at what

(09:42):
this guy's doing.
But I think the real answer tothe question, at least my philosophy
is that we're kind of now inthis golden age of comfort.
So it sounds paradoxical, butbecause we're in this age of technology
and comforts at our, you know,every corner, suffering has almost
now become this luxury good.

(10:03):
Like people are manufacturingways to kind of create that suffer
and specifically with coldexposure to manufacture that because
we just don't get it throughour normal everyday lives anymore.
You think about it like we alllive in our perfect homeostatic environments
of, you know, perfectlytemperate environment.

(10:25):
In our home, we sleep in ourcooled bed and it's, it's all perfect
temperature.
We get up, we head to work inour car where we've got a heated
seat, heated steering wheels.
Bj I'll tell you, I've got.
And I invested in this when wehad our baby, when we had our baby
two years ago.
I have like the nest.
Not nest, the Honeywell'sversion of a nest.

(10:46):
It's Honeywell's like smart thermostat.
And I have one in the secondfloor of our house and one in the
first floor of our house.
And I have sensors in eachbedroom in our house.
And so yes, I have in all ofour bedrooms, the temperature all
24 hours of the day is withinthe exact one degree that I want
it to be at that time of daywithout me touching a thing.

(11:07):
It's beautiful.
But yeah, it's not cold ever.
And I was even thinking aboutthis, watching my kids sporting events
like my kids played baseball.
And you see parents even beingoutside in Montana, where I live,
obviously spring sports,you're always out in the elements,
but you see everybody huddledin these little pods that are.

(11:28):
And no one is getting exposedto the elements like we used to back
in the day of, you know, chopwood, carry water.
But yeah, it's fascinating.
So I think we all recognizethat there's benefits to challenging
our systems.
But, you know, noenvironmental extreme induces as
many changes really in humanphysiology as the cold does.

(11:50):
But interesting, a lot of usdon't get that exposure like we used
to.
I think that's a big part ofit, is that challenge that we put
ourselves through.
I think that it's taking offnow even more so for a few different
reasons.
I think my first exposure tothe idea of cold exposure was probably

(12:12):
10 to 15 years ago, readingabout Wim Hof and some of the other
pioneers in the space.
And then you couple that withthe rise in podcast popularity and
you would hear whim going onto these different podcasts talking
about this.
You would hear podcasters likeJoe Rogan or Ben Greenfield, Andrew
Huberman promoting this idea.

(12:33):
And I think that over thecourse of that time, from when I
started hearing these thingsup to now, the science has really
caught up with a lot of that,those antidotal stories that we were
hearing on these podcasts.
So we actually see in thenumbers where there might be true
physiological benefits to someof these things.
And so I think now has beenlike the perfect culmination of all

(12:56):
of this where it's much moremainstream, people are hearing a
lot about it.
And to, to BJ's point, peoplereally are looking for other ways
to challenge themselves andtake themselves outside of this comfort
zone.
So I think those all arecontributing to this insane rise
in popularity of coldexposure, of these different spots

(13:16):
popping up where you could goand you can jump into an ice bath,
you don't have to have one athome anymore.
Almost every majormetropolitan or you can now.
And they're not thatexpensive, right?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
What was so interesting to mehere is I have strictly viewed this
as like a recoverymethodology, right?
Like I, I have neverconsidered just the appeal or the

(13:39):
purpose of just stretchingyourself and challenging your system
and putting yourself in anuncomfortable environment and the
performance benefits thatmight have.
I've just viewed it as, oh,this person's on Instagram in an
ice bath cuz they just got outof a training session and wanted
to recover.
I, I've never considered thatside of it.
And that's the side you bothare leading with actually is, is
that shock to your systembringing your, your body out of,

(14:02):
out of a place of comfort fora certain reason that isn't even
recovery.
So that's super interesting tome just to kind of calibrate this
conversation a little bitdifferently than what I initially
went in assuming it would be about.
So there are, we've alreadykind of, I think, alluded to some
of the different form factorsof this right between ice baths and
Cryro and, but, but just what,what all is out there on the market?

(14:23):
What are the common ways ofdoing this?
And bj, importantly, is therekind of a different Reason to dabble
with different formats is theform factor of our cold exposure
change what it does to our body.
Yeah, and I think you hit onit, Andrew.
I, I consider, you know, aswe're talking about cold water immersion,
but just in general,deliberate cold exposure, I consider

(14:44):
it just kind of a pillar of health.
Like we consider diet,exercise, I mean, truly environmental
training and just exposure tothe elements.
That's a system that's justpart of our normal physiology that
needs exercise.
And to the point we saidearlier about modern comforts, if
we're not stretching thatsystem or challenging that system.

(15:07):
You know, I think back to evenmy grandparents, like, I grew up
in Iowa and both mygrandparents, both sides of my family
were, were farmers in Iowa.
And if I would have ever toldthem, and two of my grandparents
lived to be well over 100, butif I would have ever told them about
the things we're talking abouttoday where you're manufacturing
this need to get into icewater to expose yourself to the elements.

(15:28):
They would have thought it was crazy.
That's, I mean, you're goingto get cold when you get up at 4am
to go out and do your chores.
You know what I mean?
Like, why would, why wouldanyone want to contrive a scenario
for that?
You just do that naturallythroughout your, throughout your
day.
But because we don't get thatnow, I think we're talking about
it as one of those pillars of,of health.

(15:49):
And I think to your point of,to the question of, you know, what
are the different forms and dothey matter?
I think the biggest thing whenwe're talking about cold exposure
is, you know, what is goingto, what's going to generate the
stimulus in the best way.
And I think we'll get intomore of the science behind it.
But I think there is a lot ofgood research that, that cold exposure.

(16:12):
And a lot of times in thescience world, you hear it referred
to as deliberate cold exposure.
Because scientists aren'tgoing out and researching people
that just happen to be outsidefor hours and they come back and
do tests on them.
You know, these, these humansubject studies, they're, they're
going into it knowing, like,okay, I'm exposing myself to the
elements.
And so there is a mentalaspect of that that they're studying.

(16:33):
But with deliberate coldexposure, I think there's a lot of
ways to do it.
It's just a matter ofeconomically, what's the easiest
way to do it, what's accessible.
But now, like you guysmentioned, now there's more and more
systems out there becausepeople have realized that this luxury

(16:55):
good of cold exposure is lucrative.
People are paying for it.
So I think the main formsthough, that we see now out in the
market are obviously the coldwater emerg immersion systems, the
ice baths, the cold plunge tanks.
But in that same bucket ofcold water immersion, there's cold
lake plunges, river plunges,all of that kind of fits in that,

(17:16):
that bucket where it's more ofa total body cryotherapy where you're
all the way up to your neck inthe water, so it's covering every
area of your body.
So it's easy to get thestimulus in that way.
But there's other forms of itand we'll get into.
But cold showers is another form.
You hear a lot aboutcryotherapy chambers or tanks using

(17:38):
the liquid nitrogen togenerate the stimulus.
There's not as much researchon those specifically.
Probably most of the researchis in cold water emergencies.
Interesting.
So that's kind of thedirection of where the science comes
in, at least the topics ofconversation around the studies of
the science.
And what happens with thattype of, of form of cold exposure.

(18:02):
Yeah, I don't know, man.
Those, those kind of freak me out.
Like those chirotherapy chambers.
You know, I have friends thatdo that or, you know, dabbled with
it when it first kind ofbecame a thing where, you know, you'd
have, at a strip mall inTexas, you'd have a nail salon and
then you'd have a hair salonand then you'd have a cryotherapy
place like all side by side by side.
And it was just kind of justpart of the health and wellness routine

(18:23):
for a lot of people.
And I looked at it and waslike, man, I don't want anything
artificially getting me thatcold for that short amount of time.
And we'll talk about it herein a little bit.
But jumping in an ice bath ortaking a cold shower seems a lot
more approachable to me, topull me out of the comfort zone.
But we'll talk about those.
And Ken, I know just followingyou on social media as friends, I've

(18:46):
seen that you dabble in someof this stuff.
And so I invited you on theshow just to kind of talk to us about
what you do personally as atriathlon coach, as you're talking
with your athletes about thiskind of stuff.
What do you encourage yourathletes to do?
So, so just personalize thisfor us.
Like what do you actually doin your routine when it comes to
cold exposure?
Yeah, it's it's funny, Iactually have been talking with athletes
about cold exposure for, foryears now and have had several that

(19:11):
have been doing it.
Personally, this was probably20, 24 is when I first started getting
into it.
So they'll all still give me ahard time and say, oh, you're finally
on board here.
But the benefits that I'venoticed have, have been, have been
really great.
So in my mind I was, to BJ'spoint, looking for more of the, the

(19:33):
mental challenge, the makeyourself uncomfortable, learn to
do uncomfortable things andtolerate uncomfortable things.
And so that's, that's where itreally started for me.
And my, my ice bath routinenow is different because we're at
a different season.
I, my, I bought an inflatableice bath that I could put up in the

(19:54):
basement or could put upoutside, but I did not buy a chiller
to go with it.
So in the summer or in thespring I can't really use it.
But starting late last fall, Idecided I'm going to put it up on
the patio.
And so when I first startedusing it, the water was probably
somewhere around 48 degrees.
That was the temperature thatit was coming out of the tap.

(20:14):
And so would hop in.
I could do longer periods ofprolonged cold exposure at that point.
And a lot of times athletesthat I'm coaching or working with,
they're, they're not ready tojump into freezing cold water.
So somewhere in the mid-40sworks really well for them.
And we'll do longer ice baths,maybe somewhere between six and ten

(20:37):
minutes at that point.
And when we're doing that, Ithink it's really helping to promote
muscle recovery.
And I don't want to get intoall the science because I know BJ
is going to dive into thesciency pieces.
My very next question.
Yes, he is.
Yeah, absolutely.
But I've noticed, you know,just anecdotally I've noticed I feel
less inflamed.
I feel, feel like my musclesare recovering faster when I'm doing

(21:00):
those prolonged cold exposures.
Now as the winter would go on,that ice bath would get colder and
colder and colder and so tothe point where it would freeze over
top and would have to breakinto it to get in.
And the water temperature atthat point was 33 degrees.
That is a lot colder.
And I think that there's avery different reason you're getting

(21:20):
in there.
So again, when I was going inthe warmer water that was very much
helping with muscle recovery,making sure that I was being able
to, to get Myself adapted togoing into colder water.
And then by the time the watergot to 33, 34 degrees, somewhere
in that ballpark, I was takingmuch shorter ice baths.

(21:41):
Two minutes, three minutes.
I was really focused on themental aspect then I really don't
want to get into here.
And so I was going muchshorter periods of time and I was
doing it daily, whereas when Iwas doing the longer ice baths, it
might be every other day,every three days.
And now that we are moving outof the winter into spring again,

(22:01):
the water is way too warm.
And so now for doing icebaths, I'm going to one of the local
spas or gyms or different,different studios that offer that.
I'm going back to the waterthat's closer to 45 degrees for the
longer periods of time.
Now, I am curious, Ken, with,with that being your primary methodology
of cold exposure is do youfind there to be a big difference

(22:25):
between owning that product,that inflatable tub, or going to
a facility near you thatoffers it versus just throwing ice
in the bathtub and trying to,to create a certain temperature for
yourself?
I'm asking that totally out of naivety.
Maybe that would be too coldor not cold enough.
I've noticed with the, withthe longer exposures in the warmer
water, which is what I getwhen I go to, to some of the different

(22:47):
studios around here, I don'tsee quite the same impact on my hrv.
I know it's still stimulating.
You know, first giving me thatkick of the sympathetic nervous system,
right.
And then allowing theparasympathetic to, to jump back
out and potentially see higherHRV recovery.
But during the winter, whenI'm in the really cold water, that's

(23:08):
where I see the biggestimpacts to my HRV in general too.
And I'm using, I'm using whoop.
And I have another device thatI use to measure my hrv.
But I've again, anecdotallyand you know, M plus one experiment,
I see, I see that impact.
It's greater when I'm doingthe shorter ice baths on a daily
basis in the colder water, butI still do see it on the longer days

(23:28):
as well.
Very, very interesting.
Now bj Ken is getting into alittle bit of what's happening in
his body right, as he'sgetting into these kinds of temperatures.
Now that science has startedto study this, which can also reference
the science is starting tocatch up to the anecdotal stories
from ice exposure.
What does the science say thiscold exposure actually does for our

(23:49):
bodies both From a recoveryaspect and a fitness and challenge
mental aspect.
Yeah, there's.
I mean, there's a lot ofscience there and it's interesting,
but I'd probably be remiss ifI didn't mention kind of medical
disclaimer, cold waterimmersion isn't for everybody.
So all these techniques andprotocols we're talking about here,

(24:10):
you obviously want to be safeand make sure that if you have any
cardiovascular history, highblood pressure, arrhythmias, poor
circulation, any heartproblems, anything like that, you
know, make sure you consultwith your physician, even if you
don't have any of thosehistories, but you're maybe concerned,
you know, consult with yourphysician before ever attempting

(24:31):
any of these things we'retalking about.
Thank you for saying that.
Yeah.
But all that said, there's alot of physiological benefits and
there is science to confirm this.
One thing I always tell peoplewhen I talk about my own personal
history with cold water exposure.
I remember in 2012, I wastraining for Escape from Alcatraz,

(24:53):
and I remember thinking I knewhow cold that water was typically
going to be.
I think at the time of yearthey were holding it then on average
it was going to be low 50s.
And I was thinking, that'scolder than any water I've ever open
water, I've ever practiced.
I took it upon myself to starttaking cold showers in the morning.
I'd heard somebody had donethat and had good success in adapting

(25:17):
to the cold prior to swimming Alcatraz.
And I thought, okay, I'll do that.
And it was funny because oneof the first things I noticed, outside
of just being torturous anddeveloping that grit factor, was
afterwards, you know, itsucked when you're doing it.
But afterwards I just feltreally good.
And it just.

(25:37):
The prolonged effect of thatwould last for hours throughout the
day.
And at the time I didn't knowreally much science behind it.
But now studying it a littlebit more and looking at the literature
that's out there, it'sprobably one of the strongest points
of evidence we have for thephysiological benefit to cold water
exposure in that the mentaleffects, because it does kind of

(26:01):
spark our autonomic nervous system.
And the sympathetic response,kind of that fight or flight response,
it sparks that so quickly ifthe water stimulus is cold enough
that it kind of affects thiswithout getting too sciency.
It basically affects therelease and stimulation of the catecholamines,
which is like epinephrine,norepinephrine, which another term

(26:25):
for that is adrenaline andnoradrenaline and dopamine.
Which are theseneurotransmitters responsible for
this feel good effect andimproving mood, attention, alertness,
focus, energy, all of that istied to the release of those chemicals
in both the brain and the body.

(26:45):
And the science has shown thatthat stimulus and that effect doesn't
just happen in the short termimmediately after that exposure,
but it can last for hours.
And I think a lot of peoplewill, will say that you'll hear hear
anecdotally a lot of peoplejust say, you know, I don't know
what it's doing, but I justfeel great.
I feel great afterwards.
Right.
And, and that is some of thescience behind, behind a lot of that.

(27:09):
So it's, it's very interesting.
BJ Correct me if I'm wrong.
The studies that I've seenhave shown that again, if the water
is cold enough, you get thosebenefits after just a minute or two.
Right.
You don't have to be in therefor 20 minutes to feel these.
And in fact, probably thecolder the water, the shorter the
time you're still going to getthat response.
Yeah, and we can jump intothat too, because I think the most

(27:33):
common question that comes upwith deliberate cold exposure is
well, how cold does it need to be?
And kind of like what you'retalking about, Ken, with your own
experience and the changing ofthe seasons and the different temperatures
having sometimes differenteffects, are you realizing that if
it's warmer you might need tostay in a little bit longer?
You know, there's, there's alot of science and different studies

(27:56):
around different protocols of,of time and exposure and then the,
how cold the temperature needsto be.
And it's, it's funny because Ithink it from reading a lot of different
researchers opinions on this,based on the, the science most kind
of come to this point whereit's, it all kind of falls in that

(28:17):
it depends bucket, right.
It's, it definitely isindividual, but it kind of comes
down to this, boiling it downinto getting that person to say,
okay, this is really cold andI want to get out, but I know I can
safely say it whatevertemperature that is for you.
So for some people, if theyput their hand under the shower water

(28:40):
or they put their hand in theice bath and they're like, oh yeah,
that's not too bad, it'sprobably not cold enough.
Right.
But if they jump in andthey're like, okay, this is really
cold, I don't want to be inhere, but I know I can do it safely
for X amount of time, I thinkthat's the appropriate stimulus,
it's likely enough tostimulate your autonomic nervous

(29:03):
system to trigger the effectsthat we want.
If you look at kind ofsystematic reviews of the literature,
most studies have shown thatthat range of temperatures, anywhere
from 44 to 59 degreesFahrenheit, and it's not that you
can't go colder, but that thathasn't been there maybe isn't as
much literature on that because.

(29:24):
Yeah, and that's probably cold enough.
It's probably cold enough foranybody to feel like, I don't want
to be.
And again, it can differdepending on the person and the person
can get more adapted as they go.
And it might be intuitive tothink this, but obviously the, the
lower the temperature, theless exposure you need.

(29:46):
So I think again, most wouldsay if there's temperatures closer
to the 59, 60 degreeFahrenheit range, you likely would
need to be in the water forupwards of 30 minutes or more to
really get that same effect.
But if it's closer to the 40degree mark, it might only take 30

(30:07):
seconds for that stimulus tohappen for that individual.
And again, it depends on the individual.
But yeah, I would tellsomebody that if you're excited to
jump in, it's probably notcold enough for you.
Now, you might be crazy or youmight just realize, hey, the benefits
are so much.
It outweighs any of thatresistance early on.
But it definitely should bethat shock factor to you.

(30:29):
You shouldn't want to get inthere at first.
Yeah.
And I'm obviously from Dallas,Texas, and Vanessa Ronsley, who is
our other host for thepodcast, she'll do some episodes,
I'll do some episodes.
She's from Calgary, Canada, sothat threshold for her might be a
little different than what itis for me to feel like, ooh, that's
really cold water.
B BJ you bringing up Alcatrazis really interesting to me because

(30:50):
I've, I've done that race aswell, and I lucked out in the sense
that I caught it on a warmer year.
Yeah, I, I want to say thewater temperature for us was 62,
63, 64 the day of the race,which is much warmer than it normally
is when we had a strongercurrent than normal.
That slowed us down quite a bit.
But we didn't have that like,shock factor of jumping into the

(31:11):
bay and feeling like it wasicy cold.
Like, like you, you kind ofhear people talk about.
But for an athlete thatstruggles in cold open water swims
or just dreads signing up forraces that have cold open Water swims.
Is this a great way to combatthat or is it just maybe your body's

(31:31):
just not built for that kindof environment.
You should find warmer swim venues.
What do you think?
Yeah, absolutely.
And I think, you know, as wetalked about the mental effects that
we see the science for inboosting mood and alertness, focus,
energy, all the other thing itdoes, like Ken alluded to as well,
it's like you're training yourgrit factor.
And there is something to besaid about training that top down

(31:54):
control of the prefrontalcortex, which is basically your grit
factor area.
Like, can I mentally overcome this?
And not only that, but thereare the physiological changes that
do occur as you challenge that system.
And that's another one of thebig health benefits of, of cold water

(32:16):
exposure is that there can bea boost in metabolism and you can
actually change your physiology.
And one thing we'll, we'lltouch on, we won't go down this rabbit
hole because it's, it's atopic in and of itself, but that's
the topic of, of increasingyour brown fat stores.
So there's something calledbrown fat, which is kind of known

(32:36):
as your, your thermogenic fat.
It's, it's fat that has a lotmore mitochondria.
It's, it's different than kindof the typical fat most people think
of, which is our white fat.
It's more the subcutaneous fatthat most people want to get rid
of.
Brown fat is very differentand it's, it's actually fat that
boosts your metabolism andthrough the process known as thermogenesis,

(32:58):
which is just kind of the, theway your body then regulates its
temperature warms itself up.
The more brown fat stores youhave, the more able you are to, to
warm your body and regulateyour, your temperature.
So by training yourselfthrough cold water immersion, you
can start to increase your,your brown fat stores.

(33:20):
And what's another interestingpoint with brown fat is many of us
as kids have a lot more, ahigher percentage of brown fat.
And then as we age, we startto lose some of that naturally.
And then if you don't use it,you lose it as well.
So I always think it's funnybecause I tell my kids, put your
coat on when they go outsideall the time.
And they never listen to meand somehow they always seem fine.

(33:42):
I'm like, oh, that's probablywhy they've got more brown fat stores.
They can actually sointeresting regulate their.
Temperature better than mebecause I'm freezing.
I'm like, how do you not havea coat on, but they're literally
built different.
They're literally built different.
Right.
A little bit joke, right?
We say about certain athletesor something.
Oh, they're just builtdifferent or, oh, people.
Folks from more northerncountries that can stay in the cold.

(34:05):
They're built different.
They literally are in this case.
Yeah, yeah, no, totally.
It.
It is.
It is definitely a thing.
And you know, as you trainthat system, like any system, you
will adapt to those changes.
So I think there is thatbenefit of increasing your cold exposure
to.
To change your system in that way.

(34:26):
Yep.
That is so interesting.
I'm.
I'm curious for the athletewho's listening to this.
And, and maybe they're like,maybe they've dabbled with this before,
but it's not part of theregular routine.
Maybe they're like me, andthey've never tried any form of cold
exposure outside of just goingfor a run in the cold.
Right.
What are the protocols for this?
Right.
We're.
We're.
We're hearing there's adifferent form factors.
We're hearing it needs to beuncomfortably cold to where you don't

(34:49):
want to do it, and the colderit is, the less time you need, all
that kind of stuff.
But, but I'm thinking just interms of like, like, where does this
fit in our weekly workout regimen?
Like, how often are we doing this?
I'm thinking, like, is there atime of day?
Like, is this better in themorning or the afternoon or the evening
or before a workout, after a workout?
What's just the how to's forthe best practices for fitting cold

(35:13):
exposure into our daily routine?
Coach KEN I would say when I'mlooking at this and how I personally
go about it, is that if I'mworking with an athlete who has questions
or somebody's brand new tothis, let's start with that uncomfortable
temperature, but one that isnot feeling too cold.
So what BJ had already said,and when we're, when we're working

(35:34):
in those warmer temperatures,the 44 to all the way up to 59 degrees,
I think you can, you can lookto, To.
To safely be in the water for,for up to 10 minutes.
Beyond 10 minutes, you know,if the water is warmer might work,
but really, once we see oronce you get that vasoconstriction
that happens in, in the skinand in the body, there's really not

(35:57):
a ton of extra benefits tocontinuing to stay in there.
So you might say, oh, my gritfactor wants me to be in here for
20, for 30 minutes, probablynot necessary.
All of the time on thoselonger ice baths or those longer
prolonged cold exposures.
I like those to help withmuscle recovery.
So if I'm finishing up a verylong run or I am finishing a long

(36:21):
bike, I might hop inimmediately after that workout.
Now, if I am going to the gymand I am working a strength day and
I'm purposefully lifting totry to build muscle, then I think
that there is some science outthere that shows that the hypertrophy
that occurs is actuallydiminished due to that, to that cold
exposure.

(36:42):
So you know when you lift andyou're sore, you want to feel that
soreness.
You don't want to stop that.
So if it is a lifting day, Iwill do cold exposure prior to going
to the gym or I'll wait 3, 4,5 hours afterwards before I, before
I hop in.
And that's kind of thosegeneral longer, warmer, cold exposure

(37:05):
days.
If I'm going for the reallycold days, like I had mentioned earlier,
the, the 33 degrees, the 34 degrees.
Again, I'm only jumping in fortwo, three minutes.
But I'm still probably doingthat before my workouts and, and
I'm not doing it really aftermy long runs either.
If I come home from a long runand it's is that very cold day, I

(37:26):
may actually just throw coldwater into my tub to help with the
muscle recovery on the legsversus jumping into the 33 degree
water.
Because I know when it comesinto the tub on that cold day, it's
going to be closer to 45degrees coming out of the tap.
I live in Pennsylvania andthat's kind of our general water
temperature in, in the winter.
So that's, that's really how Ithink about approaching it or, or

(37:49):
tackling it for again, kind ofdifferent reasons, right.
Or different modalities to this.
And then finally I'll say ifI'm, if I am thinking about outside
of the workouts, the time ofday I'm doing these.
I do like the cold exposure inthe morning because it wakes me up.
It gets that dopamine pump inthe, all of those other, all of those

(38:10):
other hormones that might begoing from, from jumping in there.
And then at the end of theday, right.
I don't want to do it beforebed because I don't want all of that.
I don't want all of those,those hormones pumping in my body.
I'll do more of a, when I'mgoing to bed, a warm shower, right?

(38:31):
And so actually what happens,I believe, when you're Doing that
too.
Is that the cold water?
Right.
It, it causes you to want to,to warm up your core and so blood
comes into the body and that'sanother thing that kicks you.
It gets you moving.
At the end of the day, whenyou're in that warm shower, you're
actually doing the opposite.
Right.
So you're warming yourself up.

(38:51):
Your body, your body doesn'tneed to pull all of, all of the heat
into its core, so it actuallycools you down a little bit at the
core because the warm warmnessis on the outside and so you lower
your body temperature.
And that's actually better for sleeping.
But probably sleep science isa whole different podcast.
Ken.
Going into this conversation,I probably would have done a hard

(39:14):
workout and dabbled with coldexposure therapy after the hard workout,
thinking this is going to helpmy muscles recover and respond better
after this hard workout.
And what we're learning isdon't do that because of what you
just said.
So, so I, I'm just findingthis so interesting.
BJ is, is Ken right?
And everything he just said,is there anything you want to add

(39:36):
just for the best protocolsfor utilizing cold exposure as an
athlete?
Yeah.
And I think he can spot onwith a lot of that.
I think one interesting thingwith the anti inflammatory benefits
of cold water immersion isthat they have done some research
and there's conflicting evidence.
Right.
On how much does it becomedeleterious to like anabolic strength

(40:02):
building.
Right.
And I think there is somescience to say if your primary focus
is on strength training andhypertrophying of the muscle.
So like you said, Andrew, thatthat inflammatory thing that happens
to our bodies once we break amuscle down is advantageous to build
that muscle back up.
So why would we want toinhibit that?
And there is some sciencethere that would tell you if your

(40:25):
primary focus is strengthtraining to hypertrophy muscles,
you should wait at least fourhours before doing cold water immersion
all the way up to the neck.
Right.
Otherwise it could be not as advantageous.
However, from an endurancetraining standpoint or high intensity
training standpoint, therereally hasn't been a lot of evidence
to say that it, to do itimmediately following that type of

(40:49):
activity, that it woulddecrease performance or inhibit that
process, matter of how yourespond and how you feel.
So I think there is somescience to say it can reduce doms
delayed onset muscle soreness.
So for some, because itreduces that soreness feeling, they
might like it after a longbike ride or a long run just so they

(41:11):
can wake up and do it again.
The next day, or do anothersession the next day and not feel
as sore.
So there may be some benefits there.
Um, but again, if, if yourprimary focus is, is muscle building,
maybe lay off or, or do it earlier.
One interesting thing that Kensaid that I think is key is time
of day can matter.

(41:32):
And especially if you'repursuing the cold water immersion
for, primarily for themetabolic benefit.
If you were to do it earlierin the day, you would have a bigger
gap to bridge with your bodyhaving to warm itself up.
Because our core bodytemperature internally is at its
lowest about two hours priorto waking up, and then based on our

(41:55):
circadian rhythms throughoutthe day, your core body temperature
starts to rise.
And then right before you goto sleep, typically the way your
body's kind of trained, yourbody temperature will then start
to lower.
So if you were going to docold water immersion earlier in the
day, before your core bodytemperature has kind of gotten to
its peak, you would have tobridge a bigger gap.

(42:18):
So your body would kind of beburning, so to speak, to warm itself
up a little bit longer or alittle bit more to get there.
And depending on how you are,if you were to do it right before
bed, you would likely, youknow, again, your body would have
to ramp itself up with, withits core body temperature.
So it might take you a whilelonger than to get it back down to

(42:40):
a cooler temperature where youwould normally want to be before
you go to sleep.
So it's.
But it's like some people thatdrink coffee right before bed.
Some people, it doesn't botherthem if you're super exhausted, wiped
out from all your training anyways.
It may not matter if you wereto do it right before bed anyways
because you're already, youknow, trashed and ready to sleep.
But that's something of note.
Just to know time of day can matter.

(43:02):
Now, a lot of people like togo back and forth between a cold
stimulus to the body and thena hot stimulus to the body.
And I've seen this just in aPT environment for myself where a
PT on a certain muscle groupwould oscillate between hot and cold
stimulus as part of myrecovery treatment.

(43:24):
And this obviously is, we'retalking more extreme directions right
between cold immersion likewe're talking about.
But a lot of our, our gymfacilities and, and a lot of athletes
will enjoy using sauna andreally like a very, very warm environment
as part of their kind of, in asimilar way, just get, just giving
a different stimulus to thebody that they have to grit through

(43:46):
that does something differentto the muscles.
Is there anything where thesetwo fit well side by side, or are
they just kind of like.
Like different methodologiesthat should be viewed as different
methodologies?
Yeah, I think there's somereally interesting research with
this as far as total bodyexposure to the different elements,
whether it's cold or heat orkind of oscillating between both.

(44:07):
What you're saying, Andrew,before with PT is more in that contrast,
more isolated to specificarea, it's a little bit different.
But when you're talking abouttotal body exposure, whether it's
kind of that Nordic cycle ofgoing from a dry sauna to then an
ice bath, I think there'sagain, if your focus is on the metabolic

(44:27):
changes from that change intemperature, I think there's a lot
of science that says that canbe even more advantageous of going
from a sauna that's maybe 80to 100 degrees Celsius, or 175 to
210 degrees Fahrenheit, orwhatever that conversion is, to then

(44:47):
cold water immersion, whichmight be in the temperature range
of 40 to 50 degrees.
That change in that challengeof having your body respond again
can create that stimulus thatevokes that autonomic response.
That's enough to trigger thosechanges like we're talking about,
where they.
They might cycle back andforth several times.

(45:08):
Just so the body has to reallyramp up its thermogenesis and you
start to see that increase inbrown fat activation.
All those things I've even heard.
There's one scientist inparticular, Dr.
Susannah Soberg, that she's aprime advocate of not drying off
or not getting warm at the end.

(45:31):
And so ending on cold isactually something that she's shown
to be more advantageous whenyou're talking about the metabolic
benefits.
So you force your body at theend than to warm itself up.
And even getting to that stageof where you're inducing a shiver
response can actually releasea substrate called succinate that

(45:53):
helps activate more of thosebrown fat stores.
So there is some science thereto say that if you do a little bit
of that contrast, going fromdry sauna, for example, to cold water
immersion and then cyclethrough a couple times, but then
ending on cold and not.
Not resisting the urge to getwarm right away, like not even not

(46:14):
toweling off or not huddlingand, you know.
Clutching yourself, not havinga blanket at the ready and a fire,
yeah, that.
Change can actually be moreadvantageous from, again, the metabolic
response.
I'm happy to hear you say thatbecause that would be my typical
Protocol for not the hot andthe cold, but when I'm doing the

(46:35):
very cold ice baths in thewintertime, hopping out, jumping
into the house, I do have totowel off because otherwise my wife
might have something to sayabout that.
But I definitely typicallyinvoke that shiver response.
And it probably takes a good15, 20 minutes to get myself back
to where I'm feeling good.
So my typical morning routinewould be about 9am Hop into the tub,

(46:59):
spend three minutes there, hopback up, come inside, and then just
head up to work.
I would have a few meetingsthat I would get on, and while I'd
be on those meetings, I'ddefinitely be shivering.
But that was my typical go tomorning routine over the winter.
You know, you're on a podcastwith scientists when we're calling
it a shiver response asopposed to just being shivery and

(47:21):
like, oh, I got the shivers.
No, I've induced a shivering response.
That's what's.
Yeah, go ahead, B.J.
I was just going to say,speaking of the different protocols,
we've kind of touched on oneinteresting science piece that came
out of a lot of Dr.
Soberg's research was that sheeven wrote a book on winter swimming,
for example.

(47:41):
But one interesting thing froma time standpoint that she found
that was significant,significant to induce a significant
response was that over thecourse of a week, you needed to get
at least 11 to 15 minutes ofthat cold water immersion all the
way up to the neck, just perweek, 11 to 15 minutes per week in
order to be significant instimulating the body in that beneficial

(48:06):
way.
Interesting.
So again, depending on thetemperature and the time spent based
on that temperature, youmight, for example, do 45 degrees
Fahrenheit for up to threeminutes, maybe up to five minutes,
but just three times a week,based on her research would say that's
significant enough to continueto make some positive physiological

(48:29):
changes based on what we'retalking about with metabolic changes,
not to mention the mental benefits.
Now, I have one more questionfor today, and then we'll kick it
over to Vanessa for our coachcooldown tip of the week.
And, and what, what I'mwondering as a triathlete, I mean,
clearly there's, there'smultiple benefits we've talked about
here.
There's the, the, the gritfactor, challenging yourself that

(48:52):
triathletes appeal to.
So I think a lot of listenerswill hear this and, and we've learned
some best practices and Ithink we've, we've heard enough to
know, okay, we should givethis a shot and see what it does,
you know, for, for our body.
But when I look at what atriathlete does during the week,
right, we have our swimtraining, our bike training, our
run training.
A lot of us do some form ofstrength training, a lot of us are

(49:13):
doing some form of stretchingand mobility work.
People have other recoverymethodologies they're mixing in,
right?
Whether that's foam rollingor, you know, spending some time
in the recovery boots orspending some time with their massage
gun or getting actual massagesat a, at a facility that does that,
you know, there's a lot for usto do.
Where does this mix in?

(49:34):
Is this just like, you know,one of several different recovery
methodologies that if we'reusing one, we're using the others
and we're recovering or, or isthis like something that is, is,
it is different and it is special.
So it's worth adding into themix alongside of all these other
things, like what's, what'sholistically when we look at the
week of a triathlete, wheredoes this fit in and how much of

(49:55):
it do we need compared toother things?
Coach KEN yeah, I, I think it's.
Going to be different based onthe athlete, based on your goals,
what you have coming up.
So for instance, when it'swinter time here and I've got a plunge
on my back patio, I'm jumpingin every day for three minutes.
It doesn't take any extratime, it doesn't take anything out

(50:15):
of the way now that we'removing into the spring, into the
summer and I don't have thatplunge on my patio.
Well, now it's a 30 minutedrive to the location where I can
get into a tub.
It's a 30 minute drive back,that water's a little bit warmer.
So again, I'm probably lookingat a 10 to 12 minute plunge at that
point.

(50:36):
So I'm not doing it every day,but I definitely will try to get
there couple times a week.
If I had a race that I know iscoming up in the spring and it's
going to be in a cold lakelike we have here in our spring Pennsylvania
races, I'm probablyprioritizing that because I want
to get used to being in thatcold water as I come to race day

(50:56):
so that my body doesn't freakout if I've not been doing cold water
immersion for, for a monthprior to that race.
So for me, I'm going toprioritize it a couple times a week.
I'm not going to use it toreplace my other Recovery modalities.
And when I' working withathletes, we talk about when are
you stretching, when are youhaving a massage or working pt.

(51:18):
Let's try to fit it all in.
And again, I think it's goingto be different for everybody.
The key is, though, that whenyou look at each week, you plan exactly
what it is you're going to do.
Each of those modalitiesyou're tackling has a reason that
you're doing it.
You're not just saying, oh, Iheard somebody talk about this modality
on a podcast.
Is that for me?
Talk to your coach, find outwhy that modality may or may not

(51:40):
be for you.
You and incorporate the onesthat are ultimately going to help
you reach your goals and theones that aren't.
Let them go.
BJ I think Ken hit that prettywell, but anything for you to add
as we shut down the main setof this episode.
Yeah, I've probably mentionedthis before on a podcast, but I think
there's so many things we cando as athletes that I think a lot
of times I'll ask the questionof the athlete.

(52:01):
Like, it's not about addingone more thing to your list, but
sometimes you have to figureout, like, what do I need to stop
doing?
Right?
So, yeah, we might be saying,hey, you know, getting this environmental
training through cold exposureis a great thing for your body.
There can be the recoverybenefits, the health benefits.
But, you know, if, if diet isyour biggest thing on your list to

(52:22):
check off because you'reeating at McDonald's every day, you
know that that should be your focus.
It's not just like, hey, keepdoing all these things that, you
know, you need to improve onand then add a cold plunge to, to
burn more calories and losemore weight.
So obviously it's just yougotta weigh all those things.
But I liked what we talkedabout earlier, where I don't think
we need to consider this typeof tool or this type of cold exposure

(52:46):
as just a recovery method, butit's part of a pillar of health.
So I think as we talk aboutwhat to do, what not to do, you kind
of have to scratch where ititches, address your lowest hanging
fruit, but then also thinkabout, yeah, maybe this is something
that could help me in a lot ofdifferent ways and how do we fit
it in, make sure it'saccessible, make sure it's efficient,

(53:08):
otherwise you won't commit toanything there.
But I think it makes sense.
Great set, everyone.
Let's cool down.
All right, everyone, it's timefor the coach Cool down.
Tip.
I'm Vanessa, your averagetriathlete with elite level, enthusiastic
enthusiasm.
And I'm here today with tridot coach Gina Rimel.

(53:31):
And let me tell you, she hasan absolute heart of gold.
Gina started her triathlonjourney while studying kinesiology
and she became hooked rightfrom the get go.
Since then she has actuallylost count of how many short course
races and 70.3s she's done andshe has six full Ironmans under her
belt.
Gina has her master's degreein human performance.

(53:53):
She's a tridot pool schoolinstructor and coaches swimming and
personal group training at afitness center in Texas.
She loves working withbeginners through to Ironman finishers
and holds a special place inher heart for first timers.
Welcome to the show, Gina.
Thanks so much for having me.
So Gina, let's get straight tothe tip here.
I, I think this is going to bea really great tip.

(54:15):
We've never had anything likethis on the cooldown before, so I'm
really excited to hear whatyou have to say and to share with
our listeners.
So let's hear.
Perfect.
Sounds good.
I encourage my athletes topractice running barefoot.
So whether you're coming outof a sprint distance race in a pool
or a full distance ironman ina lake or a river, you're going to

(54:36):
have to get from that body ofwater to your bike barefoot.
So practice running ondifferent types of surfaces like
grass or mud, sidewalk, maybesome loose pavement and then do a
little research so you knowabout how far your race is.
Some of those races you mayhave to climb up a handicap exit

(54:58):
or something like that andit's a little bit longer.
But if you are just practicingon your trainer and then putting
on your shoes and running outthe garage, you're, you're getting
that muscle memory for therun, but you're not practicing that
run barefoot in the conditionsthat it would be.
That's just one more way youcan eliminate a surprise on race
day.

(55:19):
And the flip side of that issome races will let you clip your
shoes into your bike and pushyour bike out to the dismount or
the mount line.
And that's another reason whyyou need to run barefoot or your
shoes will already be on yourfeet and you need to practice running
in those bike shoes.
Our bike shoes are more solid.

(55:40):
They don't, they don't flexand they have those clips or cleats
on the bottom that can bereally slick or lead to a slip or
ankle turn.
And so you just want topractice running in those Shoes so
that you can get your bike outto transition and then back into
transition.
This is a fabulous tip, andit's something that I wish I had
listened to prior to myadventure in Nice, because I have

(56:03):
not actually told anybodythis, but when I was coming out of
the swim exit, I fell flat onmy face.
Like, I tripped and I fellflat on my face and.
And it was one of thosethings, like, I.
I don't know if it was due tobeing dizzy or, or just, you know,
going from water to land or whatever.

(56:24):
Was there a wrinkle on the carpet?
I don't know.
But I ended up falling.
And.
And you're right.
Like, it is something to practice.
There was a mass, there was anincline that I had to go up up in
bare feet with wet feet.
There was carpet down, but itwas slippery.
So I think you're totallyright in suggesting that.
That athletes practice on avariety of terrain to make sure that

(56:44):
they're getting that Just, youknow, take away a little bit of that,
the unknown that might be happening.
And another thing that I thinkis really great is the research aspect.
Like, find out what yourtransition area is going to be like,
whether that's from swim tobike or from bike to run.
Um, when.
When I was racing inWisconsin, I did the relay with Carrie

(57:10):
Lubinow.
And so she came out of thewater and we had to run together
to the exit point so that Icould get on the bike because I was
not prepared to run onconcrete with my injury that I had.
And so what we did, we endedup doing is we knew that the transition

(57:31):
was a really, really longperiod of time.
So, A, we had done ourresearch and B, knew that I could
not run in definitely not runin bike shoes and definitely not
run in bare feet.
So I actually wore my runningshoes and we sprinted to the bike
mount line.
And then she collected myshoes for me and I got on the bike
and got going.
Um, so I think that this is a.

(57:52):
A fabulous tip.
Tip for all athletes to knowwhat the transition is going to be
like and then to practice tomake sure that there's no unknown
there.
So thank you so much forsharing that tip.
I love it.
I think our listeners aregonna just think that it's a wonderful
thing.
It sounds so simple.
And we drill into our athletes.
Nothing new on race day, butif you've never walked or run barefoot,

(58:15):
it's really different,Especially if you're used to, like,
the HOKA shoes or a reallysquishy shoe and all of a Sudden
you're trying to run up aconcrete path.
It's a lot of impact.
It could be slippery.
I know I've got semi sensitive feet.
And then like I did Waco amonth or so ago, it's all sticker
burrs.
Like you want to be preparedfor how that feels so that you know

(58:37):
how to react and how to fix your.
Fix whatever just went haywire.
Yeah.
And, and even if that means,like knowing what the type of, of
terrain you're going to begoing on, if that's part of your
race plan, to walk or to run,because you don't have to run like
no one says you have to run.
So if it's something thatyou're not comfortable with, then
you're going to take your timeand you're going to, you know, walk

(58:59):
and then reduce the impact orreduce the risk of injury or, you
know, if you have sensitivefeet, then just walk slowly and,
and let it go.
Don't, don't risk a slip or aninjury on, on your way to transition.
Just you haven't practiced something.
But at the same time, like,some of those jogs can be a little
bit long.

(59:19):
And if you haven't practicedthat, I can waste a little extra
energy because, oh, I'm goingto sprint to the, my bike.
And the next thing you know,you're a quarter of a mile into it
and you're out of breath andyou're trying to get your wetsuit
off or your bike loaded andyou're not focused because you've
expended all this energytrying to get to your transition.
Absolutely.
And, and not even to mentionwhen you're going from that horizontal

(59:43):
plane while you're swimmingand then standing up, that, that
can have a lot.
Yeah, you could get dizzy justfrom that in itself.
So it's important if you dohave a, a long transition period,
you want to make sure that youkeep that heart rate low because
it will spike.
Absolutely.
Thanks for joining us.
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