Ian Bousfield's Harmonious World

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
Welcome to the Trombone Retreat podcast of the
Third Coast Trombone Retreat.
Today on the podcast, I hangout with Ian Bousfield.
My name is Sebastian Vera andman, first of all, hi, we're
still alive, we're still around.
You know, we'll never leave you.
So something I'm pretty excitedto announce is we have a

(00:33):
YouTube channel.
Some of you are alreadysubscribed, but our YouTube we
haven't really been exercisingit.
We kind of use it to post someaudio content.
We have some really cool videosof past recitals.
There's an amazing James Markeyrecital video from the Trombone
Retreat.
But I've really been into theidea of enhancing the podcast

(00:57):
and creating experientialcontent, travel content.
I love to travel, if youhaven't heard me talk about it,
and I had a chance to take anamazing trip to Europe this
summer.
I went to Germany, austria andSwitzerland.
I mainly was flying to Bremen,germany, to get my Tine trombone

(01:19):
designed.
I'm extremely excited and lovemy trombone and got to hang out
in the factory and stay thereand hang out with Max and Olaf,
and so I have some really coolvideos from there.
Then I went on to Hamburg,germany, which I fell in love
with.
I think most people kind ofhave this idea of Germany if

(01:40):
they're not from Europe.
Americans most of our idea ofGermany is basically Bavaria and
Oktoberfest, but Hamburg feltlike New York in a lot of ways.
It's an incredible, vibrant,modern city and I got to hang
out with my really good friend,jonas Burrow.
He plays in the StaatsorchesterHamburg.
Got to see that incredible Hallof the Elbphilharmonie that's

(02:02):
right on the river if you'venever seen it, and it was just
amazing.
Went to Berlin for the firsttime for incredible hall the
Elbphilharmonie.
That's right on the river ifyou've never seen it, and it was
just amazing.
Went to Berlin for the firsttime for a couple days.
Saw my really good friend, alexNisbet.
He showed me all around.
We had amazing walk.
I went to Prague.
If you can tell, I was livingon trains for a while, but
Prague is one of my favoritecities.
It's just beautiful.
The lighting downtown, it'sjust this magical, mysterious

(02:26):
city.
And and saw my good friend, tomBorrell, who wrote the Borrell
Trombone Concerto that Ipremiered at the ITF.
He's one of the most talentedyoung composers I've ever been
around, so check out his music.
Then I went to Vienna and gotto hang out with Peter Steiner
and Constanza for a couple daysand they showed me all around
the city Constanza's from thereand it was just really cool.
We found Albrecht's Burgersgrave, which was really unique.

(02:48):
Kind of stumbled on that.
And then I went to Munich andrandomly my friends in the
Pittsburgh Symphony were on tourand it was the first day of
their tour and they justhappened to be there the same
day I was planning on beingthere.
So we had this huge dinner andhung out and I saw another good
friend, felix Eckert, who'sprincipal trombone in the
Bavarian Radio Orchestra, and hegave us a tour of their opera

(03:09):
there.
And then I finally went toBaron and this is where this
interview and this video takeplace.
I saw, of course, our goodfriend, justin Clark, who's bass
trombonist of the BaronSymphony, there and I went
paragliding and there's going tobe a video of that.
He interviewed me in the skyand he has an amazing YouTube

(03:31):
channel Check out.
It's called Hot Air.
It's honestly one of the mostbeautiful YouTube channels I've
ever seen and it barely has anysubscribers because no one.
He doesn't advertise it, but hetakes people up and does
interviews and it's really cool.
And that's now where IanBousfield is living and he
invited me into his beautifulhome, got to meet his amazing

(03:53):
wife, johanna, and I met hisdaughter and we just had an
amazing talk.
I've wanted to interview Ianfor a long time and he's just,
of course, an incredibletrombonist and always been
inspiring to me.
I've had limited interactionswith him in the past.
We talked about it, I played ina masterclass for him and I've
heard him perform and seen sometalks, but he's just such an

(04:15):
open person and he communicatesso well.
You know, check out his podcast, the Ian Bousfield Experience.
We had a really cool talk.
He gave me a mini tour of hishouse and his trombone studio
and practice space and it wasjust an incredibly enlightening
talk and I think you're reallygoing to enjoy it, especially if
you go over to our YouTubechannel at Trombone Retreat,

(04:37):
please subscribe.
It would be so awesome to getour followers up.
We just have like 500 or so,but it'd be great if we got the
same following as we have on ourpodcast and on Instagram, so
check that out Also.
I'm about to go hop on a planeagain, so I'm gonna go meet Nick

(04:58):
Schwartz in London.
He's already there hanging outdoing stuff that Nick Schwartz
does, and we've been invited bythe British Trombone Festival
and the British Trombone Societyto do a live podcast at their
event at the British TromboneFestival 2024, october 26th to
27th, and we'll be interviewingthe incredible soloist, peter

(05:19):
Moore, who used to be principaltrombone in the London Symphony.
You may know him from his famegrowing up as a kid.
On these viral videos of Ithink it was like Britain's Next
Classical Music Star and Ibelieve he won that competition.
I'm excited to meet him andhang out and meet all these
trombonists in England.
I'm super excited about that.

(05:40):
I'm going to judge acompetition and Nick's going to
judge a competition and I'mdoing Master a competition and
Nick's gonna judge a competitionand I'm doing master class at
the conservatory there.
It's gonna be a really shortbut sweet but fun little trip.
We will have a booth in thevendors area for the Trombone
Retreat, so please come and sayhi.
I'll have my limited editionJSV mouthpieces, my one and two.

(06:04):
Come try, and Nick will havemouthpieces from Long Island
Brass.
So come hang out.
I think we may have somestickers too.
So let's see.
What else am I missing here?
I hope you enjoy this podcast.
Go check it out on YouTube, butit's also an audio form coming
up.
Thank you to Houghton Horns foryour support, and
HoughtonHornscom is, of course,where you can go find those JSV

(06:26):
mouthpieces.
Houghton Horns, first classbrass.
Houghtonhornscom.
Enjoy the podcast.
Let's start.
You know it's like a.
It'll also be cool just to talkto you about podcasting in
general, because I don't get totalk to many other people that
one do podcasts and two liketrombone adjacent, which is how

(06:49):
I like to describe what we do,because it's you know, we have a
lot of listeners that andyou've probably had the same
experience where you're justsurprised there's people in
certain places listening, and alot of listeners that don't even

(07:09):
play the trombone, are't evenmusicians, and they just like
hearing stories.
Because, you know, I feel likeeveryone has a story.
Um, we share this thing that weplay this trombone, but
everyone has a unique experienceand you know values and you
know how they came to it.

Speaker 2 (07:18):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, that's so true, I've
been.
I think when I started doing mypodcast it was kind of like a
bit of COVID therapy, for, asyou remember, those days where
we didn't know whether the worldas we knew it would ever return
and we didn't know quite whatthe future would look like, and
it was a very difficult time forus all.
Bank managers knew they weregoing to go back to being bank
managers, but we didn't knowwhether the face of music had

(07:39):
been changed forever and wedidn't know how long this thing
was going to go on.
And so in many ways, thepodcast that I did you were
talking about doing a solopodcast.
A lot of the ones that I didduring COVID were like therapy.
I would go into a room and I'dtalk, if you like, to my other
self, the person I was talkingto.
I was just having aconversation with myself, and

(08:02):
even now I'll go and conduct abrass section in Norway or coach
an orchestra in Germany orsomething, and a viola player or
a bassoon player will come upand say you know, thank you so
much for this podcast.
Of that podcast, the weirdestone I had was a bank manager.
Hmm, I, so I, when we boughtthe chalet in the Alps.

(08:24):
I was just dealing with a bankmanager for want of a better
word an investor who I know, andhe said so have you had your
Sancho green tea yet thismorning, you know?
And I said, martin, how do youknow this?
And he said well, I listen toyour podcast.
How did he find out?
Well, I think he Googled and hefound you know whatever?
And he said so I've subscribedand listen to your podcast, he

(08:46):
said.
And he said it's amazing howsimilar what you do is in many
ways to what we do.
I also have a former student,john Hall.
John, who was one of my firstever students in the early 90s,
and he, who was one of my firstever students in the early 90s,

(09:06):
and he went on.
He was the dot-com specialistfor the Financial Times in the
90s and then they moved him toSan Francisco and he became
friends with Steve Jobs andGavin Newsom.
He's all of those people.
He's extremely successful.
I don't want to go into all ofthe list of businesses that he
consults for now because Ishouldn't do that, should I?
But he contacted me and saidyou know so much of what I do.

(09:31):
I learn partly with you andpartly with studying with others
on the trombone.
So, it's amazing how you knowhow it sort of spreads out.
So this podcasting thing thatwe have now is really quite cool
.

Speaker 1 (09:44):
Everything really translates.
And it's just a fascinatingthing.
There's something nice abouthaving you know we do this thing
.
That's very public and you knowlike, come to my concert, I do
this thing, buy my cd.
But there's something niceabout anyone you meet in any
situation.

Speaker 2 (10:02):
You can have this thing where you're like hey,
pick up, pick up your phone andyou can hear this thing that I
do it's true, yeah, yeah it's,it's, it's really nice.
I mean, as I said also, I kindof I came out of covid a little
bit scared because we were like,as we were going through this
time in our world where havingan opinion was dangerous, um

(10:23):
well, you've never had anyopinions.

Speaker 1 (10:24):
No, that's right.

Speaker 2 (10:25):
I usually sort of hide them up my sleeve.
Actually, what you hear on thepodcast is about 30%.
But I was like it's dangerousto have an opinion, and
particularly Americaneducational institutes.
We're going through a bit of atough time in that regard.
So I kind of stopped doing of atough time in that regard, you
know.
So I kind of stopped doing thepodcast.

(10:46):
But now I don't care anymore.
Now I've got an opinion so I'llgive it hopefully, respectfully
and hopefully a verywell-considered opinion.
And you should never be, youknow you should never.
There are lines you shouldn'tcross.

Speaker 1 (10:59):
But if you've got an opinion on certain styles of
playing or conductors orwhatever you know, yeah it's
what people want to hear, yeah Ifeel like as long as you're not
directly affecting someone'slivelihood oh, absolutely, you
can't be, or you know they're ina lot of ways you could define
livelihood.
Um, I feel like we're we'rescared of of disagreeing with

(11:22):
each other.
You don't see debate.
I see that in England more.
Who's that?
Is it a BBC person?
It's like is it Crossfire,where he just basically attacks
a guy.

Speaker 2 (11:33):
Yeah, or really debates in the post-hocs.
Yeah, there's something on CNNor something.
There's no BBC, you're right.

Speaker 1 (11:38):
No, there's an English one, and I'm like you
don't hear that in America, likebecause we're so afraid of
conflict, we need to just belike raw, raw on one side or the
other and it's just.
It's refreshing that you canlike discuss something with
someone and have opinions.

Speaker 2 (12:02):
And you know, I think one of the one of the positive
whether it should be compulsoryto have free range eggs, or
whether we should ban dieselcars from cities or whatever,
and the people vote.
In fact, they just had one sometime ago.
They had one.
They said on average, mostEuropean countries have 28 days
more holiday in the year than wedo.

(12:24):
Here are the reasons why,obviously, it would be a good
idea, and here are the reasonswhy we don't think it would be a
good idea.
It lost 75%.

Speaker 1 (12:33):
For more holidays.

Speaker 2 (12:34):
Yep, the Swiss people said we don't want to reduce
our productivity, okay, and thatyou know.
So if you people are not asstupid as governments would like
them to be, mm-hmm, you know.
And if you give people are notas stupid as governments would
like them to be, and if you givethem a responsibility,
obviously now, if you introducethat in America it would be
mayhem for the first quarter ofthe century Because there'd be

(12:55):
all kinds of strange thingsgetting through, or in the UK.
But in Switzerland it'sreasonable because the very
government puts out the reasonsfor and the reasons against.
It legitimizes people insociety having different
opinions, because thegovernment's showing you both
sides and they're apparently notsupposed to show any bias on

(13:18):
either side.
So I think in music, in thetrombone world, it's a human
nature to want to draw lines,you know, and that's really the
next stage we have to get over.
We're all in the same family,we're all in the same business.
And I find that with my ownstudents, if I speak what is

(13:41):
apparently critically aboutanother trombone player, they
think I don't like that person.
I'm trying to curate opinionslike what do you think about
this?
Do you like this?
Do you not like this?
And it doesn't mean to say thatI don't wish that particular
trombone player all of the best.
And however they're earningmoney, good for them.
We want as many of us makingmoney and having a wonderful

(14:05):
career as possible.
You know it's not like tryingto push each other off the top
of a mountain, you know.

Speaker 1 (14:10):
But by doing that, you're helping them identify
their voice by like, seeing like.
I like this, I don't like this.
What am I going from?
Each person.

Speaker 2 (14:17):
Exactly, that's the whole reason for it is to say do
you like that?
Why do you like that?
What is it about it?
Well, I like.
Well, have you heard this?
Can you hear this in whatthey're doing?

Speaker 1 (14:25):
and it's and particularly also with other
teachers who have a lot ofrespect for I'll say don't think
they get that right I remembernow that you said that I think I
remember hearing maybe an earlypodcast and I'm gonna be
paranoid and double check thatthe camera's filming, because
that's my biggest fear in life.
Um yeah, we're good, tell meabout it.

Speaker 2 (14:43):
Um, you know you talk about these podcasts.
I've actually, johanna, and Ialmost never argue or disagree.
There's never.
But there was one like 30minute ramble that I did for a
whole podcast and I was reallyhappy with it.
That's what I want and she saiddidn't record.
Oh, can you do it again?

Speaker 1 (15:02):
it's like oh my mic is on.
My mic is on.
Okay.
Biggest fear yeah, like, howoften am I here?
Um, yeah, I, I think youmentioned it was something about
.
It was during the pandemic andit was for students like how to
listen and I think you talkedabout.
There's like an active listeningand a passive listening, where

(15:22):
you know I'm actively studying arecording and really analyzing
what I think about thesedecisions and then I'm putting
it on in the background andseeing how it makes me feel big
picture stuff and how both isreally important mm-hmm, I, my
daughter, is obsessed with MariaCallas and listens to her the
whole time.
That's awesome but you knowwhat?

(15:43):
He's not Taylor.

Speaker 2 (15:43):
Swift.
I think she knows who that is.
I don't, but I think she does.
What the really cool thingabout what we do is?
It's like my daughter'sobsessed with Maria Callas.
We were watching a video of hersinging in La Scala and I said
would you like to go to La Scala?
And she said yeah.

(16:04):
And I said would you like to goto La Scala?
And she said yeah, yeah.
I said would you like to go andstand right there?
And she said yeah, dad pointsDanny, you know, I don't
normally have you got any.
And he said yeah, we're doingGurr-Lieder in September.
Do you want to come and playthe alto part?
Yeah, the only thing is mydaughter would like to.

(16:24):
Oh, sure, that's no problem,and we've even got Maria Callas'
costumes.
We can show them to her, youknow.

Speaker 1 (16:30):
So I mean, how cool is that.

Speaker 2 (16:31):
Just to be able to say well, I don't normally play
in orchestras, but you knowwe're going to do that, Anyway.
So I was listening to someMaria Callas last things and, um
, johanna came and said we'regoing to talk about something,
about the kids or whatever youknow, and all of a sudden I was
talking about who's going topick the kids up from school or
wherever, and I realized therewas water running down my face,

(16:57):
normally known as tears.
Yes, I don't, that's how Iexperienced english.

Speaker 1 (17:02):
I thought they didn't cry.
I'm not really English.

Speaker 2 (17:08):
I'm a Leeds United football supporter, so you get
used to it.

Speaker 1 (17:11):
I'm Everton, unfortunately.

Speaker 2 (17:14):
Oh, that's a nice good club to support.
I don't get that very often.
Yeah, no great, and you knowit's like I wasn't listening,
but he was having an effect onme.
He's going in subconsciously.
It was really really bizarre.
And so there's, I thinkparticularly young players sit
down and they want to makedecisions Good, bad, like it,

(17:38):
don't like it.
Rather than identifying, whenyou're tasting wine, you
identify what the wine is.
I don't mean like it's fromhere, like what are the
qualities of this wine, whetheryou like it or not.
If you're a professional winetaster which I on occasion have
been you're not deciding whetheryou like it or not.
That might be the last questionyou ask.

(17:59):
You know, what is this?
What are the qualities of it?
Is it true to its terroir?
It's an italian recording.
Does it sound italian?
What is it to sound italian?
You know it's it's, and I Ithink that's the problem that a
lot of trombone players make.
It's this tribal thing.
It's like this person's thebest trombone player in the

(18:19):
world.
And if you ask me who's thebest trombone player in the
world, I would find that reallyit's like saying what?
What's your favourite wine?
And the answer is well, itdepends what I'm eating, or
whether the sun's shining, orwhether it's winter or summer,
or who I'm with, what theoccasion is, I'll give you the
best wine in the world.
In my opinion, for 20 differentscenarios, it'd be 20 different

(18:41):
wines, so it depends what I'mlistening to, you know, and so
to stop thinking this is myfavorite trombone player, this
is my favorite marla symphony,this is my, you know, and I
think that's the first step toto learning how to listen, and
that gets us out of the uh, thecomparison game, which you know,
it's something I talk about alot, um, about, you know, we're

(19:02):
not all trying to be one, thebest version of one thing you
know, no, no, because that's arecipe for, you know, depression
in a lot of ways constantlycomparing yourself, like
obviously understanding whatyou're interpreting and
everything you know, bringingyour own voice to the thing.

Speaker 1 (19:20):
Gosh, just talking to you, these little files in my
head of memories.
So I'll tell you, we'veactually interacted, I believe,
once before, and I've seen you.
So the first time I saw youplay was Denton, texas,
university of North Texas, itf2002.

Speaker 2 (19:41):
Wow, good memory I was fat and I had a beard.
That is not something I recall.
And I was with allison.
I was with with wife number twoI actually spoke to on the
phone yesterday for half an hour.
She's now officially my sister,kind of thing.
So you know, we're just reallyclose.
It's cool, it's really good,you know I want to.

Speaker 1 (19:58):
I want to talk about all your wives yep, let's do it,
and I think you playedbluebells or you played a prior.

Speaker 2 (20:05):
Oh, I usually do.

Speaker 1 (20:06):
Yeah you know, and it was wonderful, I loved it.
And then and you did a roundtable with other you know,
orchestra principals, and thenyou came to I was in grad school
at the Manus College of Music.

Speaker 2 (20:21):
Okay.

Speaker 1 (20:22):
And you came on either, a Vienna tour 2004.
Yeah, and I played for you.
I played the ride for you, Ah,okay.
And there's two things Iremember from that master class.
One you talked about theprevalence of hernias with
trombone players, Ah yes, andhow we often are working too
hard with how our instrumentsbuilt, which we could talk about

(20:43):
that forever.
But one thing that really stuckwith me, and kind of on the
topic of what you're saying andplease correct me if I'm telling
the story incorrectly but likeunderstanding styles in
different cultures and differentmusic especially.
You know, I live in America,living here.
You know I've been in threecountries in the last week,

(21:04):
which is just so cool and yousee all the subtle differences.
And you talked about, like, okay, when I really wanted to
understand how to interpretFrench music, I went and asked
my colleague, who was French,and he was like, oh well, you
just play, it's really easy, youjust play the notes on the page
and you know the story.
And then I asked my Italiancolleague how do I interpret
Italian music?
Oh, it's really easy.
Like, how do I interpretItalian music?
Oh, it's really easy, you justplay the notes on the page.
And you had this epiphany.

(21:25):
Where it's about, you need togo to the place, eat the food
hear the language, feel theweather and that's when it
starts, Is that?

Speaker 2 (21:37):
kind of how you have to understand the culture.
You have to understand, really,if we're going to be
stylistically accurate, thereare two ways of approaching it.
There's a really one of theworld's most big time conductors
who I want name, who is veryfamous for german repertoire,
now never conducts in americabecause he's so busy.

(21:57):
He just sticks to three or fourorchestras and he said what he
liked about conducting inamerica was every morning he
would start with a white pieceof paper and he could write
anything he wanted on there andhe liked that, like there was no
sort of origin.
You know, you could start witha Bruckner symphony and do
anything you want with it.

(22:17):
You know they weren't sittingthere, sort of like this is our
music and we play it this way.
And, as opposed to that, you goto an orchestra like the Vienna
Philharmonic or the BerlinPhilharmonic or Stadtschapel,
whatever, and there's this kindof established heritage as to
how you do, because that's theplace on the earth that the
music, if you like, comes from,and so if you wish to change

(22:37):
that, it's like trying to steera huge ship, it's, you know, you
can turn as much as you like,but it's gonna go straight on
for quite a while.
So if you truly are interestedin the stylistic origins of the
music and I can see the case forboth, whether you do or you
don't then you have to look intowhat were the instruments they

(22:58):
played on.
So if you want to play aBruckner symphony, you need well
, first of all.
Let's take that as aninteresting example, because the
first eight Bruckner symphonies, I believe, were played on alto
, tenor and bass valve trombones.
Probably a good reason tochange that, but that was the
origin of the music, and so atthe time the whole brass section
was playing on rotary valves,from the tuba to the horns.

(23:19):
So that would have been muchmore unanimous.
Whether it would have been agreat sound or not, I don't know
, it would have been unanimous.
So shortly after that you've gotthe Krushpies and the Heckels,
you know, going to the 1880s,1890s, the first Germanic
romantic trombones which, forthe record, are not medium-bore

(23:39):
trombones.
This theory that the Germanromantic trombone is a medium
bore instrument or dual bore isnot true.
Lech and Krushby didn't startmaking medium bore.
Dual bore was still 1920.
And I think it was partly dueto the onset of jazz and that
sort of thing.
And so back in those days youknow they were a larger bore we

(24:00):
played 5-4-5, they were 5-5-5.
They're actually bigger Really.
They're actually bigger andthey're actually bigger.
I have some hearing.

Speaker 1 (24:09):
Did that give like a width to the sound?

Speaker 2 (24:11):
The really fascinating thing about it was
if you look at the firsttrombone parts to Lulu or
Wozzeck or something like that,you think wow, they must have
been, because I mean, like todaywe find it tough, wozzeck, all
on the tenor trombone, by theway, folks, and it's I find it

(24:31):
much easier on notes, eventhough they're bigger.
It's really.
It's kind of like you find themiddle of the note any way you
want.

Speaker 1 (24:38):
It's got a huge center yeah yeah.
You can spin a lot of airthrough it, yeah and it's not.

Speaker 2 (24:43):
So yeah, and that's it.
You put a lot of air in but notmuch comes out.
You can go bang and it goeswhoo.
You know it's really so in manyways inefficient.
The instruments that we've gotnow are so efficient.
You just go boom the opposite.
You know so.
But if you want to know theheritage, you need to look at

(25:04):
the history.
What was the politics?
What was the society.
Who was Bruckner?
Where did he come from?
What were the instruments?
How did it sound?
Play those instruments.
Play Mahler III on a 1892heckle, which I've done.
It's like that's the sound thatMahler had in his head, and
those things, for example.
You can't break the sound onthem.

(25:24):
You get to a certain point andthen they go and they stop, so
you can't make an aggressivesound on them.

Speaker 1 (25:31):
So it's always like a .

Speaker 2 (25:32):
It's always big, it's always warm, and that's got to
key in, it's got to change yourapproach as to how you play this
stuff.
So if you really want to takeit seriously, that's the route
you go down.
Who was Mahler?
When was he?
Where was he?
You know, going through all ofthat, do the study.
You know what did it mean.
You know what did theinstrument sound like?

(25:52):
What are the articulations?
Why did he write an accent onevery note?
I assume by that he didn't wantit legato.

Speaker 1 (26:03):
Something I've been talking to on this trip with a
lot of trombonists is like howdo you, how do you feel the
relationship between justlanguage and the way people
articulate in certain countriesis I've heard that their style?

Speaker 2 (26:15):
I'm kind of I've been through that.
It's like people from the southof the us saying we can't play
fast because we don't articulatewhen we speak and that if you
listen to me, I'm from the northof England, so it's like you
know when we talk.
So I've heard examples thatsupport that and also don't
support that, so I'm not sure Ithink it could play a role.

Speaker 1 (26:40):
Yeah, Like in Germany , for example.
I feel like they reallyenunciate clearly yeah, you know
, in my German friends think I'mmumbling all the time when they
hear English.
And and from what I've beentold you know, some of their
attacks may seem stronger thanwhat we're used to in the States
at times, but I mean, I guessit's so.
It's so.
You can't generalize the entirecountry.

Speaker 2 (27:01):
I think that's a stylistic thing.
If you listen to the greatestrecordings, if you listen to
Death and Transfiguration Zell1954, if you listen to Sinfonia
Domestica, rainer, 1958,.
Those orchestras were largelyimmigrant orchestras.

(27:23):
They were a mixture of russiansand you know germans or
whatever french it was.
You know as well as a lot ofamericans as well, and listen to
the articulation of thoseamerican orchestras back then
and listen to the sameorchestras playing those pieces
now.
It's not like that.
I listened the other night to aremarkable recording, vorzhak

(27:46):
seventh symphony, londonsymphony, antal dorati, in the
60s exactly, and I'm not talkingabout brass plays, the
articulation you get from thestrings, the polarization of the
difference between legato anddetached and the, the greater
understanding of the phrasesthat comes through that, and you
listen to the london symphonyorchestra like with colin davis

(28:08):
recording of it.
Now it's gone, thatarticulation's gone.
So that's america, that'sengland.
If you listen to, I think thevienna philharmonic is probably
still the last orchestra thatreally will ping the front of
notes, one of them, which is thesame as they always did.
I think what went wrongstylistically and in a brass

(28:34):
playing point of view is peoplesay have you heard those
recordings of the ViennaPhilharmonic in the 30s and the
40s and 50s or the BerlinPhilharmonic.
Have you heard the tromboneplaying?
It's horrible and it is.
It's rancid, it's out of tune.
Usually you can hear the secondtrombone player is on the way
towards retirement and it'sdestroying all of the chords.
Yeah, and if you listen to theLondon Symphony, the Cleveland,

(28:58):
chicago recordings of the sametime, it's like well, there's no
comparison.
You know, it's like this isworld-class brass playing.
This is not.
That's not to say there weren'tsome world-class brass players
in those orchestras at the time.
There were.
In the Vienna and Berlin therewere some world masters.
But he doesn't mean the stylewas wrong.
And I think that's where it wentwrong.
You know, if you want to listento that and say that's really

(29:21):
bad trombone section playing,agree, yeah, listen you know,
but yeah, is.
Is that?
What about the sound?
What about you know?
So I think that's where we canlose context if we're not
careful and that's why I lovegetting opinions of
non-musicians you know, oh,thank you I love thank you nice
to meet.

Speaker 1 (29:39):
You tell me what you do again um, like, for example,
that I used to be obsessed with,like on sirius xm, which is
this like satellite thing?
I don't know the radio, I don'tthink they have it here, are
they maybe?
Um, they used to have the metopera player and they had
archives from the beginning ofthe metropole opera and they
play recordings late at nightfrom like the 20s and you would.

(30:01):
You know, it's the same thingwith, you know, the brass
playing, but the, but theexcitement of the style and the
energy they played with.
It was like rock and roll.

Speaker 2 (30:09):
And any person that listens to that is going to
connect to that emotion.
Is it Bruno Valter?
Is it NBC or the old?
Like if the Bruno Valter Brahmssymphonies with NBC.

Speaker 1 (30:21):
Some of those big records, you know they should
have stopped recording Brahmssymphonies.

Speaker 2 (30:24):
Right there.
It's like like, okay,everything that happened after
that, with the exception perhapsof the Carlos Kleiber ones, you
know.
But and then, of course,recording changed with Karajan,
because I think one of theproblems we have is when I went
to Vienna, the guy said, oh,when we did Don Carlos with
Karajan.
The guy said, oh, when we didDon Carlos with Carrion.

(30:45):
It was like, oh, you know, andhe was saying what's the problem
?
Didn't you eat breakfast?
Come on, you know, I neverplayed for Carrion.
I missed out on him becausewhen I was in the European Youth
Orchestra, we didn't want toplay for him because we were
idealistic and we actually said,no, we don't want to do that.
And can you imagine that?

Speaker 1 (31:07):
So could you describe that Because of the Second.

Speaker 2 (31:10):
World War, perceived Second World War connections,
and a group of young playerssaid we don't think we want to
do that.
That group of players is now,by the way, the Chamber
Orchestra of Europe.
We're the ones who moved awayinto that, and it's great.
When you're young, you need tobe idealistic.
You know it seems quite extreme.

Speaker 1 (31:28):
Now let's talk about younging in a little bit, oh God
.

Speaker 2 (31:34):
Don't no, I you know what.

Speaker 1 (31:38):
York, England.

Speaker 2 (31:41):
There are two types of people, as far as I can see.
There are the growers and thedevelopers and there are those
who are what they are and Ithink, partly because I never

(32:01):
really had a teacher as atrombonist, I've always realized
that I've had to be thesearcher.
I've had to be constantlysearcher, I've had to be
constantly trying to develop andfind answers.
I think if there's any successin my teaching it's due to its
originality.
As in, I've had to work.
Of course, I've tried to stealfrom whoever I can, you know,
from Arnold Jacobs, throughthere can be a benefit to that

(32:24):
in a way, because you don't haveall these.
I've never been indoctrinatedyeah either as a trombone player
or as a teacher, and so thatmeans I believe in the freedom
of the individuals in front ofme to make their own decisions.
Joe lessee doesn't sound likeglenn dodgson.
Christian limburg doesn't soundlike Glenn Dodgson.
Christian Lindbergh doesn'tsound like his teacher.
You know, maybe Jürgen sounds abit like Michel.

(32:46):
Maybe I certainly don't soundlike.
I did quite a few lessons withDudley Bright.
I don't sound like him,although his sound is in my head
probably with every note that Iever play, as in in every
lesson there's something fromNiklaus Harlenkor, michael
Tilson, thomas, claudio Abbadoyou name it Schulte.
But I kind of realized I had togrow and develop.

(33:12):
I realized in my 20s I didn'treally like who I was, and so
Trombone-wise or person-wise.
Well, actually, my tromboneplaying changed, and personally
as well, and so I think withevery young person who stands in
front of me, I make it clear tothem they can be whoever and

(33:35):
whatever they want.
They can grow into that, and sothe development that I've had
emotionally, psychologically,spiritually is something that
continues until today.
I never start from the positionthat I know really a lot about
anything.

(33:55):
I'm always trying to learn,which has led me.
Before we started, I wasactually looking at becoming,
you know, starting my own snailfarm.
You know it's like looking intoit in detail.
I'm open to anything.
You know it's like learningabout wine.
You know it's about learningabout food.

Speaker 1 (34:14):
That's the cool thing , because everything you've
learned from pursuing an art yourealize when you apply it to
other things.
You can apply these skills andoften you see musicians.
Their learning curve is.

Speaker 2 (34:25):
My son, who is 38 years old and lives on the other
side of Bern.
That's an interesting lifestory.
I don't know whether you'lllisten to this.
He's a great kid.
I left his mom when he was 11and my daughter was nine.
And for anyone who's beendivorced, there was one thing I

(34:46):
didn't expect and that was alook in his eye when I told him
and that has haunted me for therest of my life and we always
had a great relationship and wealways spent a lot of time
together.
But about four years ago hesold his house, he sold his
stuff up in England and got inhis car and he drove here to
Switzerland and he said kind ofalong the lines of you left me,

(35:08):
I'm coming back, wow.
And so he moved in, actuallyright at the start of COVID and
no one was giving anyone a job.
So a year later he was stillliving with his dad and our
little kids love him.
He's their brother and they'rereally cool, turn up to school.

(35:29):
This is my brother.
He's a big boy and he works outa lot.
And think Sam Schlosser.
He's kind of like that size ofguy and he was a trombone player
when he was a kid and he was atrombone player when he was a
kid and he gave it up when hewas 16 because he said he didn't

(35:50):
like practicing and he gotnervous and I said, well, maybe
I should give it up as well.
And so he was unemployed for ayear and he learned mother
tongue, french and GermanBecause he just got up in the
morning and he worked.
And it was that goal orientatedability to look at things in a
different way that he'd learnedfrom being a musician, which he

(36:10):
himself says.
Now he's a fantastic job andhe's married and you know, so
it's really cool.
But that education that we getas musicians, as trombone
players too, I think you know,like I say, patience is work
without expectation of reward.
If you go and do two hourspractice and expect anything out

(36:31):
of it, you're going to bedisappointed.
I'm still trying to fix thingsI've been working on for 40
years, you know, and I neverwill.
I know I never will fix them,but I still try every day.

Speaker 1 (36:41):
I mean, isn't that nice in a way, if we look?
At it like that, art isimperfectible.
I mean, it's the only thing Inever got bored at it reminds us
of our humanity.

Speaker 2 (36:50):
I think that it is very human to screw up.
It's about the pursuit, and Ithink that may be where music is
partly going wrong now, becauseI think the idea of what's
screwing up has changed.
You know getting things right.
He's now playing the rightnotes.
I remember 20-odd years ago hemight even have been in Denton.

(37:16):
No, it was before that.
I sat on the jury for an ITFcompetition with a guy called
John Swallow was first trombonein the Metropolitan.

Speaker 1 (37:25):
Opera Taught at Yale.

Speaker 2 (37:27):
And played the first performance of the Gunther
Schuller Eine kleine Pizzanamusic and I was on the jury with
him and you know this kid gotup and played all the notes.
He's quite a famous player nowand I like that, you know.
And John said, yeah, but don'tforget, unmusicality is also a

(37:49):
technical weakness.
Ooh, unmusicality.
And you know, I think we'veforgotten that to an extent.
Jürgen van Rijn on his liverecording of the Tomasi he
missed notes and I loved it, andhe put them on that and I think
that is a sign of yourgreatness.
You know, it's like the closestI've got to do with that is if

(38:09):
you listen to Mahler 2 withPierre Boulez and the Vienna
Philharmonic.
That and we went into theplayback room.
It was taken from the concertand the producer looked at me
and Boulez looked at me and Isaid it's a bit high.

(38:30):
And they said do you want to doit again?
I said no, that's what I didand see it's high on the
Deutsche Grammophon recording.
It's what I did.
It's life.
And there's a great Englishsaying which is if you're not
making mistakes, you're nottrying hard enough.
So audiences love hearingpeople pushing themselves to the

(38:53):
point where it's almost goingto break.

Speaker 1 (38:57):
Come on, tim, is this the garden?

Speaker 2 (39:02):
Oh don't.
That's terrible.
It's a mess this year.
But oh, they're the raised beds, but they're in a terrible mess
and then that's a lot of reallynice potential in there.

Speaker 1 (39:12):
That's cool.
There's the pool.

Speaker 2 (39:16):
We almost did the interview there, you know, yeah,
there we go and here's thekitchen, with my wife, and this
is what do you have?
You got a sourdough done, yep,wow, that's for Anik.

Speaker 1 (39:30):
Oh nice.

Speaker 3 (39:30):
Beans on toast, on rice, that's a classic.
And some sourdough bread coming.

Speaker 2 (39:36):
I'll show you my son's very dirty bedroom because
you'll see, here's my, that'smy boy's room, with his mice and
his Lego and all that sort ofstuff.
Legos are universal.
So we've had a bit of a breaknow for two reasons.

Speaker 1 (39:52):
Welcome back to Politics Talk and Snail Talk
with Ian Bousfield and SebastianVera.

Speaker 2 (39:58):
Yeah, it's August in Switzerland, so it's getting a
bit chilly now, Do you actually?

Speaker 1 (40:03):
do you mind setting the scene a little bit?

Speaker 2 (40:05):
Okay, as I look through the window there, I can
see right to the other side ofBern.
So we're just on the outskirtsof Bern, which is a beautiful,
beautiful medieval city.

Speaker 1 (40:15):
Oh my gosh yeah, walking around like this is
incredible.

Speaker 2 (40:18):
It's totally untouched by any wall.
So the history goes right back.
We live here.
We have a very fortunate I havean extremely large house here.
We live on the downstairs.
The upstairs we do as an Airbnb, which is booked out the whole
time, which is fantasticdownstairs.

Speaker 1 (40:36):
Thanks for offering it to me.

Speaker 2 (40:37):
There you go, it was booked you should have told me
in more time.
You know it's like it getsbooked out, we could have
blocked it.
Um, recording studio downstairs, swimming, swimming pool just
down there, a huge wine cellardown there, and this is where we
kind of live and work.
So I travel to zurich airportfrom here, I teach, um, my, my

(40:58):
class here, uh, I record mypodcast and we have actually
going to do my first attempt atrecording properly downstairs in
the studio.
We've just finished building it.
I'm going to try that thisafternoon.
And then this afternoon I'llget on the train and go to our
other place, which is at athousand meters up in the Alps,
just above Montreux.

(41:21):
So we're looking at theselovely mountains called the
Dents de Midi and on the otherside of that is Mont Blanc.
So we're looking at theselovely mountains called the
Dents de Midi and on the otherside of that is Mont Blanc, so
we're right up there.
So that's where we go to spendour free time when we get it, if
we get it and I've just seen myschedule till Christmas and I
haven't got much of that, butit's close enough.

Speaker 1 (41:38):
But you love that right, you love being busy.

Speaker 2 (41:40):
Yeah, yeah, I do I business.
Yeah, yeah, I, I do, I do.
I think the great thing is I doso many different things um
that I'll never get stuck.
I mean, if you look at whatI've done this summer, I did a
tour with the.
There's this brass ensemble,vienna philharmonic, berlin
philharmonic, kind of germanbrass mixed mixture called the

(42:02):
philharmonic Brass.
I went and did a tour with them, which was fantastic, amazing
group, wow.
And then I had a little tourwith the Brass Quintet, with the
Reinhold Friedrich BrassQuintet, which is Reinhold Birun
Berviard, two of the besttrumpet players in the world.
You know, it's not often I sitdown and say, you know, thanks
for letting me play.
You know, thanks for letting meplay, you know, but it's really

(42:27):
is.
That's been nice did awonderful um master class in
sweden jim markey was there aswell, which was great.
Coach.
The gustav mahler youthorchestra I'm just getting ready
to do a recital, then I'm goingto go play in la scala and you
know it's.
And then I've got some soloconcerts in england and then
there's concertos with orchestraand that sort of stuff.
So if you look at all of thedifferent things that I do, and
then every time I go to teach.

(42:48):
It's really a privilege becauseI think you know one after
other big time student is comingthrough the door and they're
more in practice than I am andand they're more motivated than
I am, and they get better and Idon't.
You know.
No, but this year all five ofthe leavers will be sitting in

(43:10):
an orchestra on the 1st ofSeptember, and last year four
out of five.

Speaker 1 (43:14):
What a great feeling.
Right, you must not be doingsomething wrong.

Speaker 2 (43:18):
You know it's Every September.
I'm in mourning, I feel like,yeah, these students are okay,
but not like the ones that justleft Such wonderful people and
they all played so well.
And then I realized that everySeptember and to watch people,

(43:38):
it's like.
So the question is do I haveany superstars in my class?
In September is not yet.
That's the answer.

Speaker 1 (43:47):
Not yet.
No, If they were, would youtell them if they?

Speaker 2 (43:49):
were.
I think it's really importantthat everyone knows what they
can do.
I really do.
I will spend depending on thepersonality type, I will spend
up to three months establishingwith someone what it is that

(44:10):
they do.
Well, because there will be.
There's always a little bit ofoffice keeping that needs to be
done where it's like okay, weneed to fix this, we need to
work on that, and sometimesworking on problems can be
painful because people don'tdistinguish between like it in
the godfather, this is notpersonal, this is business, you

(44:30):
know it's.
You know they'll say, okay, I'mbad at this.
They'll say I'm bad, you know,and they'll take it personally.
So if they're starting from thecushion of like I do this well,
I do this well, I do this well,I do this well, but I need to
work on that, I think it's amuch softer blow.
So, like I say, you have toread the personality type
because you know, with someyoung people they're usually a

(44:53):
little and they'll just fall topieces, you know.
So you have to make sure andthere's no reason for that, you
know you have to make sure thatthey're aware of what their
strengths are before you maybestart looking at the weaknesses
Otherwise, because they'realready looking at the
weaknesses.
They never look at thestrengths.
Who does?
Who walks into a practice roomand says I'm great at these,
list of things, right, becauseit's problem, you know, you're

(45:14):
troubleshooting, fix this, this,this, this, this.
And then they go into a room.
So a student goes into a roomand says I can't do this, this,
this, this and this.
And then they're going to see ateacher and the teacher says
yeah, you forgot about this,this and this as well, you know.
So it's really, you know.
And without the feeling ofpositivity, without someone
going into a room feeling great,I'm going to practice, you're
never going to achieve anything.

Speaker 1 (45:35):
So Every now and then you have the rare student who
does think they're like,everything's great and they
don't want to think about that.

Speaker 2 (45:43):
They're the difficult ones, yeah, actually.
Well, I think you experiencethat in America more than we do
in Europe.
We like sunshine.
Yeah, I think European teachersdo tend to keep people's feet on
the ground a little bit toomuch, and in America it goes too
much in the you are a beautiful, unique individual who's about
to change the world, and it'svery painful, I see, for a lot

(46:05):
of American people when they hit30, 35 and realize that that
ain't gonna happen Because noteverybody can you know.
That doesn't mean to saythey're not an amazing person
trying to be the best personthey can possibly be, and that
we've always gotta grow andwe've always gotta learn and
you're gonna make your way andhave a happy life.
That's the goal, isn't it?
Oh yeah, you might like thisone, but most people don't.

(46:33):
There you go.
That's a nice one, and this onethat means I'm a chevalier in
France for wine.

Speaker 1 (46:49):
There you go.
Wow, see, I came too early inthe day.

Speaker 2 (46:51):
There you go, we'll show you down there if you like,
and that's my only hi-fi system, but it is a good one, it's a
name, they're really it's like480 watts.
You can't have it even halfway.
It's amazing.
So all this stuff, so thefurniture, all this furniture
stuff was made by my dad, really, and these drawings like this

(47:12):
here, all done by my dad.
He changed his career every 10years.
He was the same as me.
He made all this stuff in hisretirement.
I remember, I'm sure, my wifeyou know who's wonderful.
I remember one of the mostpainful things, and she's
American.
She was first drumming in theBoulder Symphony when she was
really young, 18, 19, somethinglike that, I think.

(47:37):
She said, realizing that Iwasn't going to change the world
was one of the most painfulthings.
Because in America you're allraised to believe you can change
the world, which, on the onehand, you, because in America
you're all raised to believe youcan change the world which, on
the one hand, you always see why.
What a wonderful thing to bringa kid up believing but there's
no mechanism in place when yourealize that 300 million people
can't all be the best you knowand so.

(48:00):
So I think I've had that withamerican students when I've used
the word no and they've lookedat me like I'm the first person
who's used the word no.
You know so, and I think Ithink, with students, with me,
once they realize that it's nottop down, there's eye to eye and
that we are both involved inthe same project wow, that it's

(48:21):
our project, that every studentwho comes in and I don't know
how much longer I can do thisbecause it's breaking me, it's
exhausting me- really is.
It's our project.

Speaker 1 (48:31):
Their success is on my shoulders you put all that on
your shoulders yeah.

Speaker 2 (48:37):
So if I take somebody into my class, they know I
believe they can fulfill thosedreams.
When someone says you want tostudy with me, I would say what
are your dreams?
And sometimes I'll say I can'tdo that for you.
I'm sorry I can't be yourteacher, but I always believe I

(48:57):
was believing everybody.

Speaker 1 (48:58):
So yeah, the old student who doesn't win a job,
it's, it hurts you know, but atwhat point can you I mean you
can't do it for them?

Speaker 2 (49:12):
no, no, but I I always have a reality check.
I always say, look, you've toldme this is where you want to go
, this is where you are, this isthe path, and it's your choice
as to whether you take that pathor not.
But I'm lucky, I get goodstudents, so most of them.

Speaker 1 (49:31):
They have the right, they have the want to already.

Speaker 2 (49:34):
I mean, I occasionally I don't very often
do masterclasses, butoccasionally I'll go into
another institution and dosomething and I think wow.
So this is like normal teaching, because the teaching that I do
, that Stefan Schulz does, thatJonas Bieland does, the students

(49:55):
are amazing.
I mean, you know, and then inother classes you get some
amazing, but it's just, I'mspoiled.

Speaker 1 (50:06):
I mean, but you have to allow, allow your, because I
struggle with that.
Um, it's a certain level ofvulnerability.
You have to allow to invest ina student that much where it's
going to hurt that much ifthey're not successful, whereas
you can have the approach oflike, okay, I'm a guide, a guide
, you know, I'm here, I'm goingto tell you everything I know,
but it's up to I mean, it's upto you, because it's just being

(50:31):
able to control the success isimpossible.
So, but I guess you have tomake that leap right.

Speaker 2 (50:40):
Yeah, I think I have a person in front of me Not a
student and not a tromboneplayer and if I get that person
in the right place in their head, everything else will happen.
And that's what I'm seeing.
It's not about instructingsomeone as to how to operate the
trombone.
That's actually quite easy.
But for them to be successfulthey have to be in the right

(51:04):
place and sometimes it's moredifficult than in others.
But you know, if you went tosee a lawyer, you're paying them
an awful lot of money to act onyour best interests all of the
time.
And that's how I see myself.
I'm not there to be their friend, although many of my former

(51:28):
students are very close friends,that's not my primary role.
I'm there to be their advocate.
I'm there to represent them andtheir best interests all of the
time.
And if that involves beingtough with them, every now and
then that happens, but veryrarely, you know, very rarely.
The toughest I will ever getwith a student is and with me.

(51:51):
When it gets tough, my voicegoes quiet and I don't swear.

Speaker 1 (51:56):
That's more.
I think that's more powerfulwhen you know someone that cares
about you is disappointed.

Speaker 2 (52:02):
Yeah, when I'm mildly grumpy, I swear and shout.
You know when it's like youknow I'll say, look, could you
do this, do this and do this?
And then I'll say I now knowyou didn't do what I asked you
to do last week.
But what?
What?
No, but no, you didn't, becausethat's exactly what I asked you
to do last week and you justgot a lot better in 10 minutes.
So that tells me that youweren't doing it last week.

(52:23):
And that's about as tough as Iever get.
It's like you're gonna do whatI ask or not.
You can say no, you can say youdon't want to Because, but you
have to be able to back it up Ifyou think I don't think this is
gonna work for you like.

Speaker 1 (52:39):
I would really love to not have to have this
conversation again.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (52:44):
But they usually then feel a bit embarrassed because
it's like you know, if what I'dasked you to do wasn't working,
then you wouldn't have gotbetter.
Well, you've just gone likethat in 10 minutes, so it is
working.
You just haven't done it.

Speaker 1 (52:58):
Can you talk a little bit about?
I think a lot of people inAmerica might not understand the
you see a common careertrajectory in Europe of you know
you perform, and it's veryprestigious to get a professor,
a teaching position later on,maybe after you perform or maybe

(53:18):
sometimes during.
In America you could be, youknow, doing it when you're very
young, right, and that's whatbrought you here the Hochschule.

Speaker 2 (53:29):
Hochschule der Kunst in Bern.
Yeah, and I think a lot of it'sa personal thing.
I never wanted to teach as aside hustle.
I always felt that if someonewas going to travel halfway
around the world to put theirfuture in my hands, I had to be

(53:51):
there for them, and so it wasvery important for me to move to
wherever that was going to bebeat Eastman, which was a
possibility.
Or moving back to London orViennaman, which was a
possibility.
Or moving back to London orVienna, which was a possibility,
or here.
So we moved here and if Ishowed you my schedule, I wish

(54:15):
like teach Monday, tuesday,wednesday, fly to Chicago next
week.
Teach Thursday, friday,saturday next week, teach the
week after.
Go to Japan Wednesday toWednesday.
You know, I make thatcommitment, I think.
I think the biggest thing aboutbeing a teacher is being there

(54:37):
for the student, and I don'tmean literally, just physically,
but they know that you're in itwith them.
And one of the first signs ofthat is to say right, because I
think.
I think I'm the only, if youlike, top trombone player in the
world who does that, who saysI'm playing concertos with
orchestras, I'm conductingprofessional orchestra brass

(55:00):
sections, you know'm designinginstruments, whatever, but I'm
gonna be here for you.
I don't, you know.
I don't think there are anyothers who do that you know like
.

Speaker 1 (55:11):
But how do you?
So you prioritize time, so doyou have like a set rule where,
like, I'm never going to be gonelonger than two weeks in a row,
kind of thing like so you getaway for two weeks in?

Speaker 2 (55:22):
a row kind of thing Like.
So you get the consistency.
I'm away for two weeks in thissemester and that's the second
time in 12 years.
So or I have been away for twoweeks where I'll teach Monday,
tuesday, wednesday, fly Thursday, miss the next week and then
teach the back end of thefollowing week.
So that means I'm only missingtheoretically one week.
But the semester starts middleof September.

(55:44):
I start teaching next week,that's end of August.
So I will have done two weeksteaching before the semester
starts.

Speaker 1 (55:51):
Oh, you get started early.

Speaker 2 (55:52):
And I spread it.
You know a lot of thesestudents.
They're kind of likeprofessional level people.
They come and go and I'll teachthrough the semester break.
I'll do two weeks in thesemester break and I'll teach
through the semester break.
I'll do two weeks in thesemester break and I'll continue
after the semester's finishedin the summer.
And the deal for them is theydon't go three months without
seeing me in the summer.
Wow, and they get.
So we never have, oh, we've.

(56:13):
I mean occasionally I get asituation where it's like I'll
teach one person on a Thursdayand then see them again the next
Tuesday.
It's like, well, well, youdidn't have much time to work on
what you know.
So, um, apart from one student,I have at the moment a Japanese

(56:33):
young lady who is, I have totell you, a nice story.
It's like I never expected herto be that good.
I never expected her to explodelike that.
She's been with me one year.
That's the best.
I never realized she was thatsmart.
I think that's the thing it'slike.
On a Thursday, you say couldyou take a look at the Tomasi
for Tuesday?
And so it's like Tuesday saiddid you look at the Tomasi?

(56:55):
She said, yeah, I've learned itand she hadn't looked at it
before.
I said so we could do any of.
Yeah, I've learnt it first year, you know.
So sometimes that happens.
But but in America you've got somany institutions, I mean there
aren't enough orchestras tofill all of the teaching jobs,
right?

(57:15):
So and also, if you are in oneof the top American orchestras,
you've probably negotiated asalary that is way in excess of
whatever any university couldplay, whereas here it tends to
be a little bit the other wayaround.
If you're in a middle of theroad, as it were German

(57:38):
orchestra it's a good orchestrayou're probably gonna get paid
more to teach.
Downstairs is a bit of a messbecause we're literally just
finishing the recording studio.
So I built this practice cubehere, so if I want to practice

(57:59):
at 3 o'clock in the morning,nobody hears anything.
You even have a little windowin there.
Yeah, have a look in there.
No way.
So and that's my wife'sgreenhouse back, I can go in
there.
I love it, but you don't hearanything.
You know the kids.
After I built it, the kids keptsaying where's dad?

Speaker 1 (58:20):
You know, it's really cool, that's very cool okay,
just for you know, for for somepeople that may not be as
familiar with the trajectory ofyour career.
Um, and we could do like manycliff's notes, but I mean that's
always difficult.
But you know, you grew up inthe british brass band, which

(58:43):
I've always been fascinated with, and I've played with a brass
band in Pittsburgh.

Speaker 2 (58:50):
Oh River City, yeah.

Speaker 1 (58:51):
Yeah, yeah, Nice oh you played for Jim then huh, yes
, yes, yes, yes, he's one of thebest tuba players I ever heard.

Speaker 2 (58:58):
He's an incredible musician.
He's incredible.

Speaker 1 (58:59):
He's amazing, incredible, incredible musician
and I've learned a lot from him.
He's been tough on me, but I'velearned a lot from him.
Um, and I think personally I'vesaid this before I think that's
the I've seen young musician,brass players go through a youth
brass band kind of situationand young players go like

(59:22):
through a youth orchestra andthe level of playing is so
because you're, you're playingthe whole time, the level,
endurance, the level ofunderstanding, phrasing chamber
music, um playing solos, ummelody which you don't as a
young trombonist.
It's night and day and it's likedo you, do you think back about
how that started yourfoundation?

Speaker 2 (59:46):
very often, I guess when I was a kid you were either
going to play cricket or playin a brass band.
You know that's because it wasthe northern industrial,
probably like Pittsburghactually a northern industrial,
probably like Pittsburghactually and every village had a

(01:00:08):
brass band and every factoryhad a brass band and it was like
paid recreation for the workerswhen they were being treated
like shit to work in horribleconditions.
The company at least provided abrass band, a male voice choir,
maybe, a football team and acricket team and they had their
own social club, you know.

(01:00:28):
So the brass band would play inthe pub the whole time and they
had free instruments.
They didn't have much else butthey had free instruments.
So that was that kind of diedout.
It wasn't as bad as that when Iwas a kid, but that was the
heritage of it and so I startedplaying.
When I was seven, my dad and myuncle were cornet players.

Speaker 1 (01:00:48):
They got your embouchure set up basically, or
did they just hand you something?

Speaker 2 (01:00:52):
They just handed me something and it kind of worked.
But it's like my son he's 11,and you just give him a trombone
and his embouchure's exactlythe same as mine.
Really, he's identical.
He sounds the same.
He is exactly the same as mine.
Really, he's identical.
He sounds the same.
He walks onto the stage like Ido.
My father-in-law is a veryfamous musician and so they're
sort of like, if you look at thebreeding that's going down into

(01:01:13):
him, musically, I think my sonis better than I am.

Speaker 1 (01:01:16):
That's what you hope for, right.

Speaker 2 (01:01:17):
Yeah, I've never had to talk to him about music, wow,
ever.

Speaker 1 (01:01:21):
It's kind of that dynamic's difficult, isn't it?

Speaker 2 (01:01:25):
No, no, he's kind of no, because I think he realizes
that I'm good and that I care.
And it's now reaching the stagelike he has such a smart
question.
I said this bit in thisRachmaninoff song can you hear
the crying?
He said how do I express that11-year-old kid, how do I

(01:01:45):
express that?
I said well, you've got to feelthe emotion.
I said do you know what it'slike to feel desperate?
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, you knowkids.
And he's like lost your balloonor whatever.
Oh yeah, you know my ice creamfell on the floor, so we and
play it, and he did it and Ijust I nearly cried oh my god,

(01:02:06):
wow, to watch a kid discoverthat you know.

Speaker 1 (01:02:07):
and you say yeah, that that's how you do it.
Well, I mean we we can laughlike they that an 11 year old
hasn't like gone through life'sintense ups and downs that we
have in a fuller life, but in away they don't.
They have like less layerswhere they can tap into those
emotions a little more quickly.

Speaker 2 (01:02:23):
Yeah, I think, particularly this generation of
kids and this is a podcast initself we're trying to protect
our children from hardship andthat's not part of the human
disposition.
We have to learn to deal withthe extremes and I don't think

(01:02:47):
we're doing our children aservice by trying to make life
too comfortable for them.
So, because you don't have thatrepertoire the human
disposition of everything fromdesperation to absolute elation
we finish up just being all inthe middle band if we're not
careful, you know, and we don't.
We try.
In many ways kids get protectedfrom the extremes, and who, as

(01:03:10):
a parent, would not want toprotect their kid from one of
those extremes?

Speaker 1 (01:03:14):
Yeah, no highs, no lows.

Speaker 2 (01:03:15):
But if you don't know how to deal with hardship, then
you don't know how you later onin life to fight your way
through the tough times whenthey do come.
Um, I was raised in now whatwould unquestionably be called
poverty.
Um, there were a couple ofyears where my mom cried at the
lack of christmas presents orwhatever.
And you know it was.

(01:03:36):
You had one set of clothes, onefor school, one for free time.
Such was it, such clothes.
We went on holiday once a year,an hour's drive from where we
lived, if we were lucky.
Some years we didn't.
And my dad, when he bought myfirst trombone, he was a teacher

(01:03:56):
and he had to drive a forklifttruck on the weekends to save up
the money for my first pop oftrombone.
So you knew what it had cost intime and you knew he cared, and
you know he'd given up hisweekends and you know you didn't
drop that bloody thing, youknow, because there wasn't
another one coming.
You know, and I think that wasthe kind of upbringing that I

(01:04:17):
had and I would not wish that onmy kids, but somehow you've got
to teach them the value ofthings and teach them that it's
important to strive.

Speaker 1 (01:04:28):
So what positive can you take from that upbringing?
Just the valuing you want toget out of this Work.

Speaker 2 (01:04:33):
Yeah, you want to do it, you want to make it Work.
I believe that if you and thisis partly the American dream as
well if you want to be the best,you've got to work hard and be
better than everyone else, andwe need to be careful that we
don't get into.
If you want to be better thaneveryone else, pull the others
around you down.
That's not a good way of doingit.

(01:04:54):
Work, strive, go for it.
You know it's great and that's.
I'm seeing that now starting, Ithink, with my son.
He's starting to, because, Imean, our kids have got a tough
life.
They speak English at home.
They're mother tongue German,swiss, german and French, and
they're 9 and 11.

(01:05:14):
And so he's having.
When he's doing science, he'sdoing it in his second or third
language.

Speaker 1 (01:05:22):
You know it's tough Like Dad.

Speaker 2 (01:05:22):
help with my homework , yeah yeah, yeah you know, I
mean my german's good johanna'sgermany's mother tongue, but her
daddy's german um I know what II know I know how to ask uh
where the bathroom is yeah,there you go.
That's another one of our greatleaders flying around the world
to save us.
Um, okay, let's take a breakand show you where the bathroom

(01:05:45):
is.

Speaker 1 (01:05:45):
Good, okay, oh no, no , I don't need to go, I was just
saying.

Speaker 2 (01:05:48):
Oh, I thought you were doing.
Let's sit down, there we go.
I thought you needed to knowhow to answer In.

Speaker 1 (01:05:52):
German, of course Sorry.
I said, wo ist die Toilette.
I said, wo ist?

Speaker 2 (01:05:58):
The restroom is.
If anything was going to beedited, there we go.
I'm good, yeah, we'll leavethat in, but also learning a
different language.
It changes the way you think.
In this day, you learn thingsfrom a different perspective.

Speaker 1 (01:06:09):
And in German, for example, they have so many words
to describe things that wedon't.

Speaker 2 (01:06:14):
Yeah, yeah, and they're very good at sort of
putting lots of words together.

Speaker 1 (01:06:18):
You know I've noticed that's the word for you know.
Yeah, okay, so, okay.
So, walking through a littlebit brass band system, you know,
showed a very early aptitude.
I imagine it was a blend oftalent and a blend of, you know,
probably a strong work ethicfrom a young age yeah, I don't
know where this drive comes from, but I heard star wars the

(01:06:41):
first.

Speaker 2 (01:06:41):
What episode four.
It would have been on the radioone Saturday morning when I was
about 11, 12, I don't knowsomething like that, and it was
like that's.
It changed my life forever.
I want to be first trombone inthe London Symphony.

Speaker 1 (01:06:53):
Oh, you had a very clear goal.

Speaker 2 (01:06:55):
In, like northern industrial England, you know,
and I had a dad who said, bob,fine, yeah, you do that.
Then Good.
And then two years later theLondon Symphony ran their music
scholarship, which for kidsbetween the age of 14 and 28 or
whatever, and it's like so I getthrough the first round, I get

(01:07:16):
through the second round.
That second round I got to meetJohn Fletcher, the tuba player,
and Bill Lang, the trumpetplayer.
It's like my tuba player andBill Lang, the trumpet player.
It's like my dad's saying wow.
And then semifinal inManchester and Eric Crease was
there, dennis Wick was there,and it's like I won the
semifinal.
It's like my dad says you'regonna play a concerto with the

(01:07:38):
London Symphony.
I was 15, like little schoolkid in the north of England.
What did you play?
Gordon Jacob and the Hindemithwith Peter Donahoe on piano.

Speaker 1 (01:07:53):
You played at the right tempo that first time I
don't remember.
Find a pianist that can.

Speaker 2 (01:07:59):
Peter Donahoe at the time was a freelance
percussionist trying to make itas a piano soloist and he's
amazing.
I mean he's a big time soloistnow and he played the hymn and
my dad thought it was too loud,so he went to the set and said
too loud, okay, did it again.
It's too loud.
My dad, being a good northerner, walked up just closed the lid.

(01:08:25):
So I did this and he was like,two weeks later we were sitting
at home and BBC Radio 4listening to that on a Sunday
morning and last night in Moscowthe British pianist Peter
Donohoe won the Tchaikovskycompetition.
My dad just like, oh God, heput the lid down on this guy and

(01:08:47):
anyway, so I won the LondonSymphony.
And my dad just kept saying Ithink as a parent I don't think
he knew he just said someone'slooking after you, because I won
the competition when I was 15.

Speaker 1 (01:08:59):
That's when he realized OK, I have this kid.

Speaker 2 (01:09:01):
Then it was like Dennis is going to retire at
some point.
I was 15, and there was acouple of them kind of went Wow,
dabbed him.
It was fifth when I was, andthat's so.
I went to the Hallé again.
I took the first tromboneaudition in the Hallé Orchestra
when I was 18.
18.

(01:09:22):
And I took the excerpts.
I'd never done any of theexcerpts, I didn't know them,
took them to Peter Gain to teachme and he said no, no, no, I
won't.
I said why?
He said you're 18, you'resupposed to be doing this La
Fosse etude.
And I said yeah, but I want todo the audition.
And he said don't do theaudition.

(01:09:44):
And I said why?
And he said because you'regoing to win it.
Wow.
And he said it's not whatDennis and I want for you.
We want you to go and study inParis with Michel Becket or in
Lyon with Michel Becket and thengo to New York.
And we want you to be kind oflike the Christian Lindbergh.

(01:10:05):
And I was very ambitious butshort-sighted.
I wanted a house, yeah, and acar and a job.
So I went against him.
I took the Hallé orchestraaudition and I won it.
And then but I was alwayswatching what was happening with
the London Symphony and so,yeah, that that's kind of how it
went that way.
And then when I went to Vienna,someone said to me he said you

(01:10:29):
may be the first person who'sused the first trombone job in
the London Symphony Orchestra asjust another step on the ladder
.
You know, and I never looked atit that way, but you know, so I
think the ambition grew when Ileft the London Symphony twice
the Los Angeles Philharmonicwere quite, you know, made quite

(01:10:50):
positive advances, and I waskind of quite keen saying, like
London Symphony, viennaPhilharmonic and then one of the
top American orchestras, justfrom the experience point of
view, and it was Johanna, who'sAmerican, you know saying you
know, no, I don't think so.
So that's why we finished upcoming here.
So that's a very potted history.

(01:11:10):
So I've always wanted to like,do lots of different things.
You know, I'm always obsessedwith different things collecting
wine, getting interested inwine A lot of my good friends
are winemakers and, you know,gardening normally was
self-sufficient for vegetables,but I've spent too much time in
the Alps this year.
Very nice, this is, by the way,this is the Valhalla for mice.

(01:11:32):
My son has a lot of mice, andwhen one unfortunately leaves
this mortal coil, that's wherethey go.
So that's where Cubal Sniff andwhat's the other one called
Sniff Sniff.
They're down there, they're withus now.
They're lovely pets, they'rereally beautiful pets, and we

(01:11:53):
have two large Maine Coon catsthat might make an appearance at
some point, and we'll walkthrough the house a little bit
at some point yeah bit at somepoint.
That's the part I'm interestedin.
I'm interested, I'm aninterested person.
I'm interested in people.
It's I'm an obsessivepersonality.
I'm obsessed with teaching, I'mobsessed with playing, I'm

(01:12:14):
obsessed with everything that Ido.
And in here is the recordingstudio, which we've just
finished, so we still got allthe work tools out.
So this is where we're going tobe properly recording, nice and
dry in here, and it's all foundinsulated.
Still got to do the ceiling.

Speaker 1 (01:12:33):
So we've got that there.
What's the the rim is?

Speaker 2 (01:12:36):
Ah plastic sticker.
It's really dirty.
I won't show it to you folks.
It's a yeah Cool.

Speaker 1 (01:12:43):
Very cool.

Speaker 2 (01:12:44):
And if you want to see the wine Nice array of.
I've never done.
You know it's like.
Now we've got this chalet inthe Alps.
I never expected age 60 tobecome a forester, you know.
So I'm working with a chainsawtomorrow.

Speaker 1 (01:12:59):
That's therapeutic.

Speaker 2 (01:13:00):
Yeah, and you know.
So I got a forester in to giveme a three hour lesson on.
You know it's like, and all theresearching, the equipment and
everything, and you know, so youdon't chop your head off you
have a cool like forester hatthat you wear.

Speaker 1 (01:13:13):
I've got.

Speaker 2 (01:13:13):
I've got the cut proof shoes, trousers, the
helmet the mask um, you can putthat photo on if you like.

Speaker 1 (01:13:22):
Yeah sure do that stuff.
Yeah, yeah, you like.
Yeah, sure I do that stuff.
Yeah, you know, honestly, thatwould have been a good podcast
if we just go out there and yougive me a lesson on chopping
down stuff.

Speaker 2 (01:13:31):
You know, I wanted to do this newsletter thing that I
put out.
I wanted to do a video with meSubscribe to the newsletter.
Yeah, there you go.
Subscribe to the newsletter.
You know, if you're sort ofcutting a tree in the forest,
you know I'm sort of saying youknow you need to follow a very
strict basic technique on thechainsaw.
If you don't, the consequencesare serious.

(01:13:56):
Unfortunately, it's not thesame on the trombone, which is
why you have to go for lessons,because if you've got your basic
technique right early on, youwouldn't need it, okay.

Speaker 1 (01:14:04):
So yeah, we don't have to like spend forever on
every part of the career, butit's so interesting and you know
, like you had briefly hinted atbefore, you didn't have a lot
of major teachers because you,from what I read, you were in
Royal Academy for like a fewweeks and then you got Guildhall
, guildhall for like 10 weeks orsomething like that, and then

(01:14:25):
you moved on to Hallé.
Which kind of was your earlyeducation?
I guess on the job.

Speaker 2 (01:14:29):
I made my mistakes there, personally and
playing-wise.
And when I did go that's whatPeter said he said, OK, go up
there for a few years and justmake your mistakes, and so I
know what it's like to take agood breath, let it go and yodel
something.
You know it's like I did itlive, so it's like, okay, that
doesn't work.
Yeah, you know that doesn't work.

(01:14:51):
And also with interaction withcolleagues.
When I went there they werekind of like deeply suspicious
of me because I didn't drink.
Because it's like morning breakthey'd all go to the pub for a
pint and it's like if I drink apint of beer now, I can't play
yeah and I didn't yeah, and Ididn't drink before concerts.

(01:15:12):
I drunk after the concerts, butnot before, and they were like
what's with this guy?
He's not you know it's like,but they got used to.
I think they saw me drinkingafter the concerts and realized
okay, no he's okay, he's, he'sokay, he's okay.

Speaker 1 (01:15:24):
And then London was 11 years in London, 12.
12 years.

Speaker 2 (01:15:28):
My life works on 12-year cycles.

Speaker 1 (01:15:30):
yeah, you know, studying your bio I kind of
noticed that.

Speaker 2 (01:15:35):
I didn't realize.
But that's the Ayurvedic Indian, sort of like people who are
apparently on a spiritual path.
They're going to differentphases every 12 years and I
didn't know.
Johanna pointed it out to mebecause she gets up every
morning and does two hours ofyoga and meditation.
She said look at this, you'vedone the 12 year thing.
So every 12 years I changed myjob, my wife and my country.

Speaker 1 (01:16:02):
Don't say that part out loud.

Speaker 2 (01:16:03):
It's true, it just seemed to be 12 years, 12 years,
and we've gone over 12 yearsnow and we're really happy, so
that's awesome.

Speaker 1 (01:16:10):
And that's something I resonate with you on.
As far as you know, I likedoing a lot of different things.
I've always enjoyed that and ofcourse, as a musician you want
to find some level of stabilityand I find stability by doing a
lot of different things.
But, like you know, that's the.
You fight against that andfinding the perfect balance.

(01:16:31):
Like you get this job.
That's a big principal trombonein the London Symphony is a big
responsibility, that's a bigtime commitment.
But you also like have thisinner thing to do a lot of
different things.
But you also have this innerthing to do a lot of different
things.

Speaker 2 (01:16:43):
I think when I was in the London Symphony, I think
the brass section was that goodthat we were just high on being
together, to be honest.

Speaker 1 (01:16:49):
That's beautiful.

Speaker 2 (01:16:54):
It was just and you could fight one day and have a
coffee the next day.
The working relationships werejust amazing.
Those films that we did in the90s and you know a lot of the
recordings we made that manyrecordings.
I've never really listened tothem, but I go back occasionally
and think, oh yeah, I played onthat and you listen and you
think wow.

Speaker 1 (01:17:12):
You ever like watching a movie and you're like
that sounds.

Speaker 2 (01:17:14):
That did happen.
Cape Fear was one.

Speaker 1 (01:17:16):
Oh, that's a big one.

Speaker 2 (01:17:17):
It was like oh animals, what are they?
And they were just like oh,boots, and so we were just
really high on partying, playingtoo loud, sorry what age were
you during that London years?
22, 23 when I started Did 12years, 22, 35.

(01:17:40):
Michael Tilson Thomas was themusic director, which was the
happiest time I've ever had inan orchestra.

Speaker 1 (01:17:47):
So a young man that grew up with meager beginnings
and you're in one of thegreatest cities in the world.
In your early 20s, having anawesome job like that, could be
very easy to be distracted inthe wrong ways, but that had to
be so fun.

Speaker 2 (01:18:05):
I partied a bit too hard, yeah, um, and at the cost
of my first marriage, and youlive with the mistakes you make.
You know, um, I was just havingfun.
I think think Everyone washaving fun.
Those days with Michaelconducting were just brilliant.

(01:18:27):
It's not like that there now.
The atmosphere is not the sameand I was still trying to learn
how to play the trombone.
In fact, I talked to ThomasLubitz, who's the head of
research and development forYamaha Europe.

(01:18:47):
I had a coffee with him.
I still have lots of friends inYamaha, even though I'm
involved with a differentcompany.
It's nice to still have thepersonal side of things.
I'm very close to the Getzenfamily, Brett and Adam.
It's fantastic.
But I talked to Thomas and hesaid I think that trombone that

(01:19:12):
we made in the 90s was a goodone.
And I said and I think it wastoo.
I said but the problem was Ididn't know myself, I couldn't
work out what was me and whatwas the instrument.
And he said but you were firsttrombone in the London Symphony.
And I said, yeah, but thatdoesn't mean to say that I
understood how I played and Ididn't, you know.

Speaker 1 (01:19:30):
With the.
Oh, there's the giant cat youwere telling me about.
You have a tiger near your pool.

Speaker 2 (01:19:36):
Yeah, no, that's Kenzo.
He's a smart Kenzo.
Hey little fella.
Yeah, monty's even bigger thanthat.

Speaker 1 (01:19:43):
Did you have trouble balancing this youthful like
first time being a professionaland maybe, as you said, partying
a bit too much?
The whole orchestra was thewhole orchestra, I'm sure that
sounds like a blast.

Speaker 2 (01:20:00):
It was like being in a heavy metal band.
It was just like a moving party, were you?

Speaker 1 (01:20:04):
able to keep your was it a work hard, play hard
situation?
Like you still kept your level.

Speaker 2 (01:20:10):
Oh, that was still the most important thing.
You know, it's like you would.
Yeah, no, it never reached thepoint where it would spill over
to the next day's concert orwhatever.
No, no, no, no.
It was because the main thingwas it was like we had an
atmosphere of we just went foreverything.
I mean, it was led by MauriceMurphy, the first trumpet player

(01:20:32):
, and he was just like oh, wow,some of the like seems, frankly,
too loud, a lot of it, but itwas very, very, very bloody
exciting and a lot of brassplayers used to fly a long way
if we did the Alpine Symphony orsomething like that, to come
and hear it, you know.
So that was great Musicians inLondon.

(01:20:54):
They don't have that muchstability, employment or
financial, and in order tosurvive they work even harder
now.
But back then then I rememberwhen I first went to the London
Symphony, hans Stroker, the basstrombone player in the Vienna
Philharmonic, stood side stageand we did that Brahms

(01:21:14):
Schoenberg piano quintet withTilson Thomas in Salzburg at the
festival, and there's a bitwhere the first trombone goes
and Michael had realised that Icould do it faster.
It went pretty fast and Hanssaid let's go for a beer.
So we went for a beer and hesaid when Rudy Yotel resigns
from the Vienna Philharmonic,please will you come and take

(01:21:34):
the audition.
And I'd just joined the LondonSymphony.
It was like all right, yeah,whatever, you know kind of thing
.
Nice thing to hear to hear, yeah, and then rudy was gonna retire
.
Hans called me and said look,rudy's gonna retire.
Will you do the audition?
And I can't.
I don't think.
So you know.
Now, london, yeah, and I did aperiod of 60 days without a day

(01:21:59):
off and my wife said this isgonna kill you.
You know what about theaudition in vienna?
And so I sent hans a fax backin back in those days of fact,
saying is it too late to apply?
And he said no, it's not, I'lltake this as your application
kind of thing.
So so that's how that happened.

(01:22:19):
And I never really I'd neverdone an audition behind a screen
and in fact I've only ever donetwo auditions in my life and I
just sort of wanted to do theexperience and I'd always fallen
in love with the ViennaPhilharmonic.
I loved the orchestra, I lovedthe sound.
So I thought if I'm ever gonnado an audition outside of the UK
, that'd be the one.
So I did, and then I won it.

(01:22:42):
And the only time in my lifeI've ever suffered with
depression.
You would think it would beabsolutely ill-natured.
It was, and it was a bottle ofchampagne.
Then I just crashed.
I dedicated six months ofpractice for that audition I
took a month off from the LondonSymphony and there was no doubt

(01:23:02):
about what was going to happenin the audition.
So you felt a release no, it waslike all I thought about was
winning the audition.
I hadn't thought about whetherI wanted the job.
And I got home and it's likewhat have you done?
You've got kids that live ahundred yards from me.
We'd'd got separated and webought two houses a hundred

(01:23:24):
yards.
Your first trombone in theLondon Symphony.
You teach at the Royal Academyof Music.
What are you doing, you know?
And then it was.
And then I remember talking toHans a week later and he said
Ian, are you going to turn usdown?
I said no, I'm not.

Speaker 1 (01:23:41):
How long did you think about it?
A month, that's a no, I'm nothow long did you think about it?

Speaker 3 (01:23:43):
a month, that's a big life change because travel
wasn't so easy those days.

Speaker 2 (01:23:51):
I hadn't gone over to sign the contract, so it wasn't
a month until I could go backand sign.
I went back and I did and Ithought, well, I'll give it a
try.
So I'd set three years, I'll dothree years there and then I
will buy a farm in france andbecome a soloist.

Speaker 1 (01:24:09):
That was going to be the deal okay and had you ever
played with him like justsubbing.

Speaker 2 (01:24:15):
So you, you accepted before I heard them live once or
twice and of course a lot onrecordings, and so he's like,
well, I'll give it a go.
And what I discovered is thatwhen you leave home for three
years, part of you never goesback.
And I became European.
I was no longer totally Englishin my attitude and the way I

(01:24:41):
saw life and in my lifeexpectations, so I couldn't.
I've never really felt totallyat home in England since then
and I'm certainly not at homehere.
I'm not Swiss and whatever thepassports may say, you know it's
.
And so once you've left yourroots for a certain length of

(01:25:05):
time, I don't think you everreally go back.
Wow, and you're never really athome.

Speaker 1 (01:25:09):
But there's, I mean there's got to be part of that
within you, right.

Speaker 2 (01:25:13):
That feels at home, the laughter when I go back and
hang out with British brassplayers and I cry until I laugh
every day.
Yeah, yeah, that's that Ireally bloody miss.
When I was in the LondonSymphony, we used to laugh until
we cried every day, usually atmy expense.
You know, it was incrediblefrom that point of view.

Speaker 1 (01:25:36):
So you've been quoted as saying oh dear, I'm really
proud of myself for remembering,and of course I'll mess it up,
but the the London Symphonytaught me how to play the
trombone.
The Vienna Philharmonic taughtme how to be a musician.
It's true.

Speaker 2 (01:25:51):
My musical education was in Vienna and my brass
playing education was in theLondon Symphony.
47 of the 50 best concerts Iever did in my life were
probably in Vienna.
Wow, and I think largely that'sbecause of the quality of the
string section.
They are just immense, rightback to the last desk of every

(01:26:16):
section.
They're just incrediblemusicians, certainly when I was
there, who were committed toevery single bloody note that
they played.
And there were old guys.
When I joined the ViennaPhilharmonic it was a gray bald
orchestra and they had heritagegoing back to Metropolis and
Carian and Furtwängler and allthat sort of stuff and they

(01:26:40):
worked so damn hard and everynight they'd sit there bang.
You know it's like wow, what isthis?
You know, just total commitment.
So I'd be curious if the LondonSymphony's a great orchestra.
Of course, no one's, don't getme wrong.
It's just I think, you know,maybe even player for player,

(01:27:01):
the London Symphony was better,but there was an aspect of
communication.
The strength is a differencebetween a brass section going
for it and a bloody stringsection going for it.
I nearly went back in 2016.
What was it?
Michael Caine says Not manypeople know this.
They got me to go back for amonth in 2016 and they did a

(01:27:30):
concert performance for the lastact of Goethe Demelung in
Carnegie Hall and Gurdjieff wasconducting.
Gurdjieff said we should atleast play it once.
Didn't want to rehearse itbecause the orchestra knows it
that well, and it was the firstday back and the orchestra
decided to play it in arehearsal.
I mean, like really play itjust for fun, and I was sitting

(01:27:54):
there like this, like so no onecould see I was crying my eyes
out.
I mean, when you're in themiddle of something like that
and the president of theorchestra saw I could see him,
he saw me.
He came to the end of therehearsal and he said "'Time to
come home".
You know, and I said I don'tknow, you know.

Speaker 1 (01:28:16):
And then I got bored and Did you have to change
anything about how you played orequipment to fit that sound
Equipment?

Speaker 2 (01:28:26):
no, no equipment was the same.

Speaker 1 (01:28:33):
Because you're kind of like, I see you from the
outside, as there's verydifferent ways of playing here
and sometimes it can be aninsular thing and sometimes they
have a stereotype about playersfrom a certain area and you're
kind of this bridge between thetwo for some young students, I
feel like, because you'veexperienced going in that

(01:28:56):
direction.

Speaker 2 (01:28:56):
I think because I was never indoctrinated by a
teacher.
I think well, indoctrination'stoo strong.
But I hear a lot of people, forexample, who study with you
name it and they sound like thatplayer.
I don't, you know I was.
I never really I had my idols.

(01:29:20):
You know I loved Dennis Wick.
I first heard Dennis Wick playlive with the London Symphony in
1979.
Never forget it, never forgetit.
The most electrifying thingChanged my life.
And then the next one whoinfluenced me actually was Glenn
Dodgson.
I heard him play Shostakovich Vwith the Philadelphia Orchestra
in 1989.
And it was remarkable.
You know he was playing on aBach 42 with a Bach 6 1⁄2 AL

(01:29:44):
mouthpiece.
Mm-hmm.
And it was.
He wasn't working Mm-hmm, hewas just sitting.
He was the only one you couldhear at the back and it was a
great you know.
So I kind of that was.
My influence was listening toother people, not being told
things by somebody or to say Iplay like this, you play like

(01:30:07):
that.
I don't want my students tosound like me, I want my
students to sound like them.
If I'm really honest, I don'tthink I ever truly 100% fitted
in stylistically in Vienna.
The articulation and the soundyou can assimilate yes, you can
do that, but the musicalunderstanding is something that

(01:30:28):
I think to an extent you need tobe born into.
Wow, and there are a lot ofsons now daughters of former
members in the orchestra inVienna and when you look at it,
it's logical.
They're born being immersed inthat sound and that style.
And when you look at it, it'slogical, they're born being
immersed in that sound and thatstyle.
So I would like to.
One of the reasons why I wouldhave been interested would have

(01:30:51):
past tense.
Being interested to go to anAmerican orchestra would be to
adapt my style to playing in adifferent way.
So, yeah, I always findinteresting.
Certainly, young Americanplayers write to me and say I'm
thinking of studying in Europe.
Okay, well, europe is about 80different ways of playing what

(01:31:14):
exactly do you mean by that?
I mean, I'm sure I hearAmericans talk about the
stylistic difference between NewYork and Chicago.
Sure, sure, multiply that by100 over here, I mean, jacques
Manger, right now is 30 minutesthat way.
So the stylistic changes thatyou're going to get throughout

(01:31:36):
Europe is huge, and bless it.
Long may it remain that way.
I think the one thing that hasdisappointed me with trombone
players over the years is I havespent my life learning to love
different styles of playing.

(01:31:57):
Whilst many of those differenttypes of playing have tried to
say that what I'm doing is wrong.
I've realised that theopen-mindedness is not universal
and you get the cults of thistype of playing or the cults of
this school of playing, and wedon't talk to these people and
we don't work with these peoplebecause, but if you zoom out a

(01:32:18):
little bit, the differencebetween them is not that big um,
and I think that's and I'm atthe far end of my career,
certainly teaching wise, so it'snot something that bothers me,
but I do observe that and Ithink it's stronger in Europe

(01:32:40):
than it is in America.
I think in America there's muchmore camaraderie, and you know,
I think you know, if someonefrom San Diego was to move to
Boston and they played reallywell.
The Boston trombone playerswould say, oh, come on, have a
beer, let's have.
We got this work for you InEurope it'd be like you know,
I'm very much at a distance inSwitzerland, partly of my own

(01:33:03):
choosing, because I don't playin orchestras anymore, you know
it's, but partly it's like thisguy's not from here, you know.
So I live here, but but andthat tends to be more the
european way I, when you leaveyour home country, like
christian limburg, has never cutoff his you know support supply

(01:33:25):
.
He's working where he was bornand has all of his contacts.
If I want someone to do me afavor or help me, I call someone
up in the north of england orin someone in england, not
someone around here.
You know that's my me.
I call someone up in the northof England or someone in England
, not someone around here.
That's my support.
Life support system is still inEngland.
So, yeah, that's the Europeanlandscape.

(01:33:45):
I always, when someone writesand says, look, I'm thinking of
studying in Europe I say right,look at this from a business
point of view.
What do you want to do?
You want to play an orchestra?
Which classes are gettingstudents into jobs?
It doesn't matter whether youlike teachers or not.
You know I like this person,yeah, but has his student.
How many students win a job,you know?
Um, so, and then do a lessontour.

(01:34:07):
I have that.
I have a fantastic australianboy in my class now and uh, I'm
not sure how much longer he'llbe be there and he just he came
over and had 14 lessons, youknow, and so you can work out
who do you think will.
Do I mean, let's take, forexample, as an American player

(01:34:27):
be a great accolade to get intoJoe Alessi's class, and so it'd
be very easy for people to thinkI got into Juilliard, I've gone
into Joe Alessi's class.
But the point is, if you'regood enough to get into that
class, is that person the onewho you really think can do the
job for you?
And students very rarely thinkthat.
So when someone comes to alesson with me and says they

(01:34:48):
want to study with me, it's likeyou have to be absolutely
convinced that I can do this foryou.
Can I help you?
I'm either one to fulfill yourdreams, and I don't think enough
students think of it that way,you know, um, so yeah, so we we.

Speaker 1 (01:35:04):
Normally we close all of our interviews with a rapid
fire section.
Go for it, um, and so there'sjust a few questions I'll throw
out.
So you just turned 60, am Icorrect?

Speaker 2 (01:35:20):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:35:21):
Six years.
Well, how's that Awful that'snot a rapid fire question.
Really Awful.
Look at all this stuff.
You just described yourschedule.
Tell me the average six yearold's traveling all over the
world and you know, yeah, it'slike 30 year old, you don't know
.

Speaker 2 (01:35:37):
40, 40s well, okay, 50, you don't really know.
60s like this is gettingserious.
This is like time's running outnow.
So whatever you want to do inlife, you better get on with it.
That one hit me really hard, um, and so I'm just determined to
do what I want to do.
I'm enjoying being a dad verymuch.
We have an insane life, thequality of life, you know.

(01:36:02):
Some people have a lot of.
They have a run of bad luck inlife and they sit down and they
say why me?
I have it for the other reasonI sit down, and I think you know
what Other people practicedhard as well, why you.
And so I have a little bit of aguilty conscience, you know, on

(01:36:23):
that point of view.
But I've realized I have anobligation to try and be a dad
for as long as I can.
So I try and stay in shape, Itry and stay fit, and I don't
know how much longer I'll teach.
I love it, I love teaching, but, like you say, doing different
things, burn will kick me out infive years' time.

(01:36:44):
Yeah, that's a thing here, yeah,and there are other places that
have now come and said so whatare you planning on doing after
you're 65?
We don't kick people, but I'menjoying my playing more than
ever.
I think I'm playing better thanI ever have done.
Um, I think the and this is Iam not a salesman genuinely the

(01:37:05):
equipment that kristen is makingfor me.
I have the best instrument inmy hands now that I've ever had.
Awesome, I think again.
I think the reason why why Ilike Kristen and look guys,
let's leave the selling stuffout of this is what I love about
him is he's the same as me.
He was given a job when he wasa kid that he wasn't qualified

(01:37:26):
to do.
You know, you know they justsaid okay, come and replace Gary
Green on Steve Green, or he wasSteve Shires, mm-hmm.
Garyhorn.
Steve Shires were replaced by a22-year-old student from North
Texas.

Speaker 1 (01:37:40):
Yeah, figure it out.

Speaker 2 (01:37:41):
Yeah, exactly so he knows he has to continue
learning, so we're both learningtogether the whole time.
Brett and Adam gets and let himdo it, and there aren't many
bosses that would let you dothat either.

Speaker 1 (01:37:52):
I was an Edwards person for like the last 20
years.
Yeah, so bosses that I'd letyou do that either.

Speaker 2 (01:37:55):
So I was an Edwards person for like the last 20
years.
Yeah, like, yeah, yeah, and andso so I want, I'm enjoying
playing with some really goodbrass ensembles.
I'm enjoying that and I'menjoying having fun with great
players and I love my teaching.
But, like I say, that's goingto probably in the next five
years or so.
So if you want to be some of mylast students, get in there

(01:38:18):
quick.
Okay, so that wasn't a quickfire.

Speaker 1 (01:38:22):
Well, I didn't give you a quick fire.
I just thought of that whileasking that, and I had listened
to a recent recording of yourswhere you, you know you're very
honest on these podcasts, whichI really appreciate.
It's very refreshing.
Like you said, it's kind oftherapy.
But the first question wealways ask, you know, turning 16
.
Now advice to your 18-year-oldself.

Speaker 2 (01:38:46):
Stop being an idiot.
No Advice to the.

Speaker 1 (01:38:54):
You don't realize what you could achieve take this
more seriously, but did makingthose mistakes?
Was that a good learningexperience?
Was it a necessary thing?

Speaker 2 (01:39:05):
There's some painful ones, it's learned.
Yeah, I had to learn a lot ofthings.
If you wanna see the wine, ohyeah.

Speaker 1 (01:39:13):
I forgot to ask you about wine.

Speaker 2 (01:39:14):
This is a nuclear bomb shelter, by the way, no way
, yeah, wow, yeah, that's a.
I need to put that on.
Yes, a nuclear bomb shelter soyou're prepared for everything.
Yeah so this is the alrightwine cellar and a few selections

(01:39:35):
.
All of the blockies are allfull.
The wine cellar and fewselections.
All of the boxes are all full.
There you go, it's all full ofstuff.

Speaker 1 (01:39:43):
What's the bottle you're most proud of?
That you're not gonna openuntil?

Speaker 2 (01:39:48):
All of the ones, these are all my friends, so
it's like more of the.
I'm proud of the relationship,I'm happy with the relationship
that I have with my friends.
Most of these are made bypeople I know oh, wow, and that
one that's my daughter's name,oh, wow.

(01:40:10):
So yeah, there we go.
So yeah, there we go.
So yeah, let's go, let's go,and then we'll go that way.
And that's a swimming pool pumpthat is running.
There's the steam room overthere, okay, and we're going to
put a new heating system in now.

Speaker 1 (01:40:28):
And so there we go Very cool.
I didn't tell you what I'mdoing this afternoon.
It's something you've done.
I'm going to go paraglidingwith Justin, which I'm like half
scared, half excited.
I watched yours.
You handled it well.

Speaker 2 (01:40:50):
Oh yeah, didn't bother me at all.
If you climb a ladder, that'slike 10 feet, that's scary.

Speaker 1 (01:40:58):
Yeah, If you're 6,000 feet, it's like you know it's
so far away you can't even getscared, don't even think about
it.

Speaker 2 (01:41:07):
But he did injure someone, so yeah, I did.

Speaker 1 (01:41:13):
I heard about that.
You know.
I just turned 40 recently, ayear ago, 41.
What would you give?
What advice would you give tome At this point in my career?
I'm in the middle of my career.

Speaker 2 (01:41:23):
And that's really interesting because you you
asked what I would advise the 18year old me and actually
advising the 40 old is easierand Follow your artistic goals.
Your musical pursuits.
Don't follow the money I did.
It's very difficult to see onewho regrets following the money,

(01:41:48):
but I think partly because Iwas raised without money and my
hero was Dennis Wick, you knowit was.
I was so success in theold-school way of like, well,
it's how much money you'remaking.
And when I look at somebodylike Jurgen van der Eyen, I have
the, you know, immense, youknow, respect for what he's

(01:42:10):
doing because he's following hisartistic goals.
I don't think money's thatimportant to him.
He just wants to make the musicthat he wants to make.
And so I regret not pursuingthe solo aspects of things as
much as I could have, as in notcommissioning new pieces and

(01:42:32):
pursuing Because there are twotypes of soloists there's the
trombone festival soloist, andpursuing because there are two
types of soloists.
There's the trombone festivalsoloist who plays at the ITF and
goes to universities and alltrombone players know about
those people.
But then there are realsoloists, those who do concertos
with orchestras, if you canthink of the trumpet players,
håkon Hardenberger, people likethat, you know that they do the

(01:42:53):
Boston Symphony with Nelsons,you know, and they travel to all
right, and I never gave itenough of a shot to have done
that.
I had enough conductors whowere close friends and I.
The key to it is commissioningnew pieces and I wish I'd done
that and I might have taken afinancial hit for a few years,

(01:43:13):
you know, but at 40, I think Icould have made that happen, and
so that would be.
My advice to you is, if there'sanything artistically because
there's a reason why you took upthe trombone and it certainly
wasn't to make money- it's notthe guitar.
Yeah, yeah, you know.

(01:43:34):
So that would be my advice toany 40-year-old is I guess I
would probably finish my careerthinking I could have done more,
but I'm that type of personanyway.
My wife and I are both the same.
You know I'm impossible toinsult, Absolutely.
You can say any.

Speaker 1 (01:43:54):
Oh, you should have told me that at the beginning of
the interview.

Speaker 2 (01:43:55):
You cannot offend me, can say any you can, really you
can go for it.
You cannot offend me.
The only way you can get to meis tell me I didn't do my best.
Oh, and my wife and I both Iknow that whatever happens, I
must not say she didn't do it.
You know, or even hint that youknow, and I'm a bit the same
and I think at the end of theday, I think I would probably
say I could have done more.

(01:44:16):
You know.

Speaker 1 (01:44:18):
Okay, a question we always close with what is
something that and I'm verycurious to hear your answer what
is something that students theaverage student pursuing music
should do more of that they'renot doing enough of?

Speaker 2 (01:44:33):
Learn to think for themselves.
Learn to think for themselves.
Learn to think for themselves,learn to form your own opinions
without any arrogance and, fromwhat I can see and it's not
their fault it's the wayeducation systems are set up.
Students come in thinking thata teacher's going to tell them

(01:45:03):
what to do and then they'll besuccessful.
And it's actually a process, ifyou want to be very successful,
of learning how to think foryourself, because if you think
for yourself, you're givingyourself a lesson every minute.
You pick the trombone up ratherthan thinking is that what he
or she meant?
Or you know, is that what theymeant when they gave me a lesson
you know it's like.
So I think, yeah, learning tothink, learning to listen,
learning to think and, I think,that big one which I already

(01:45:24):
mentioned, learning to work.
With that expectation of reward.
If you're expecting anythingout of that two hours in the
practice room, forget it.
You might see the rewards infive years, you know.

Speaker 1 (01:45:36):
So I think Marathon, not a sprint.

Speaker 2 (01:45:38):
Yeah, yeah, I think that's it.
And yeah, speaking of themarathon or the sprint, I think
when you're teaching you getsomeone in it's like what can I
do to change this person's liferight now?
What can I do in two weeks?
And what can I do in a year?
You're looking at the threedifferent things the whole time.
So what can I give them?
What is the low hanging fruithere?

(01:46:00):
Do this, it's a little tip,it'll make it better.
And then what can I put in abit of work to do over the next
week to two weeks?
And what can I do withoutmentioning to them around the
back door that's going to changethe way they think over the
next one to two years and Wow,and that's you know.
So that level of you knowguidance and you know from a
teacher.

(01:46:20):
I think teachers don't alwaysthink about that.
You know, it's like this goeslike this and this goes like
that, but they're more coachesthan teachers, so yeah, Good, I
love that answer.

Speaker 1 (01:46:31):
So, in closing, is there anything that we didn't
talk about or didn't mention, orI didn't ask, that you would
just like to say in closing?
I don't know really, I talkabout anything you'd like.
You're so shy.

Speaker 2 (01:46:48):
Well, I kind of don't readily talk about things, but
if you push me I'll go.
You know, just give me the oddword or two.
No, I, I don't think.

Speaker 1 (01:47:01):
So I think we covered we could cover a lot more
things like we could talk about,you know.

Speaker 2 (01:47:04):
I mean you could go into instrument design and all
that sort of stuff and and thatI tell you what instrument
design, which I've been doingfor 35 years yeah, that is
really the ultimate example ofthe more you think you know, the
more you actually realize youdon't know anything at all.
Nothing at all.

Speaker 1 (01:47:23):
I just designed a mouthpiece, a custom mouthpiece.
That came out and it's we don'ttalk about it, but it's just
been a fascinating experience.

Speaker 2 (01:47:32):
What you think makes a difference, and actually yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:47:35):
And the maker that's making it doesn't want you to
come up with technical detailsof like.
He's like, what sounddifference do you want?
Not like, oh, I'm curious whathappens when you do this and put
this on it.
You know.

Speaker 2 (01:47:48):
Oh hello, this is perfect timing.
The star of the show has nowarrived.
This is Monty.
Wow, look at that lion.
He's a sweetheart.
Oh my goodness, good boy, he'san absolute sweetheart.
Good boy, say bye-bye.
There you go, he's a good boy.

Speaker 1 (01:48:03):
Well, I just want to thank you so much for sharing
your time with me and opening upyour home.
Lovely to meet you.
It's really nice to meet youagain and you know your
contributions to the music world, to the trombone world.
They're continuing and I hopeto cross paths with you more in
the future and do more things,but it's just really cool

(01:48:27):
getting to hang.
I've been wanting to talk toyou like this for a while
because I knew you'd be soinsightful and thoughtful.

Speaker 2 (01:48:34):
Lovely well, thank you for what you're doing with
these podcasts, because it'sreally bringing your.
You will be bringing your owncommunity together, you know.
So that's, that's fantastic too.
So, yeah, well done, awesome.
Thank you very, very much.
Thank you.
Thank you, yeah, very great ©transcript Emily Beynon.

All Episodes

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

Stuff You Should Know

24/7 News: The Latest

The Joe Rogan Experience

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Ian Bousfield's Harmonious World

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

.css-r6mb8g{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:1;overflow:hidden;}Stuff You Should Know

24/7 News: The Latest

The Joe Rogan Experience

All Episodes

Ian Bousfield's Harmonious World

Stuff You Should Know