Wycliffe Gordon Live at the International Trombone Festival: From Rural Roots to Jazz Fame

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If you're like us you've been blown away hearing our next guest at some point in your life. Join us for an eye-opening conversation with the legendary Wycliffe Gordon as he shares his musical journey from rural Georgia to performing with the greats like Wynton Marsalis. You’ll learn how early influences, particularly gospel music and church experiences, shaped his unique sound and expressive style. Wycliffe’s captivating stories and personal anecdotes will transport you to his formative years and beyond, offering a glimpse into the life and mind of a true jazz icon.

In this episode, host Sebastian Vera is joined by special guest co-host Hakeem Bilal(@hakeembilalmusic)! live at the 53rd International Trombone Festival in Fort Worth, Texas. We discuss the importance of musical festivals in fostering a sense of community among musicians and igniting passion in students and professionals alike. Discussing the enriching experiences and the unique energy of performing for fellow trombonists, we explore how these gatherings shape musicianship and camaraderie. More importantly though, we discuss the profound impact Whataburger has had on our lives. 

Wycliffe Gordon’s narrative takes us through his early attempts at piano, his transformative college years at Florida A&M, and his significant encounters with jazz legends that propelled his career. From practicing in the rain with the Marching 100 to receiving a life-changing call from Wynton Marsalis, Wycliffe’s stories are a testament to dedication, resilience, and the power of mentorship. We wrap up by celebrating his immense contributions to the trombone community and eagerly anticipate his future performances. 

Also introducing special features with Patreon: www.patreon.com/tromboneretreat

Learn more about the Trombone Retreat and upcoming festival here: linktr.ee/tromboneretreat

Hosted by Sebastian Vera - @js.vera (insta) and Nick Schwartz - @basstrombone444 (insta)

Produced and edited by Sebastian Vera

Music: Firehorse: Mvt 1 - Trot by Steven Verhelst performed live by Brian Santero, Sebastian Vera and Nick Schwartz

Thank you to our season sponsor Houghton Horns: www.houghtonhorns.com

Support the show

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:11):
Hello.

Speaker 2 (00:13):
Greetings, greetings.
Thanks for coming out.
Welcome to the Trombone Retreatpodcast of the Third Coast
Trombone Retreat.
Gotta say it, we're superexcited to be here.
This is the 53rd InternationalTrombone Festival and this is
our fourth time being here.
We've been lucky to interviewlive gosh, joe Alessi, christian

(00:34):
Lindbergh, alan Kaplan, billReichenbach.

Speaker 1 (00:37):
So many names.

Speaker 2 (00:38):
Let's log into the computer so many names.
Speaking of names, I'm joinednormally by my co-host, nick
Schwartz, but he's currently ina Metropolitan Opera rehearsal
jail.
Bradley Cooper wouldn't let himout, so in his steed I'm joined
by my good friend, itf artist,member of the C-Street Brass
River City, brass Beauty Slap.

(00:58):
Professor of trombone at WestVirginia University, an actual
TCU alum.
Let's go Frogs.
Either your current best friendor your future best friend,
please.
Round of applause for Mr HakeemBilal.

Speaker 1 (01:13):
Hi everybody.
Thank you so much, such lovelywords you've said yeah that's
all you'll hear.

Speaker 2 (01:20):
That's it All week.
That's all you're here.
Yeah, I've known Hakeem a longtime.
We play together a lot inPittsburgh and I couldn't think
of a more perfect person to hangout today.
Really excited for you guys tobe here today.
We have an amazing guest.
We have a guest that forprobably most people in this
room, the first time you heardhim, your reaction was probably

(01:40):
like how the what the how, yeah,probably like how, the what,
the how yeah, what how's that isthat?
how can someone do that on atrombone?
That was my train of thought.
I still feel that way.
So for those of you that don'tknow us, we are.
The Trombone Retreat Podcasthas been going on for gosh a

(02:02):
couple years now.
We're heard in over I think thelast count was like 112
countries.
It started as a passion projectand it still is.
We're full-time professionalmusicians but this has been a
true joy to do and everyonethat's come up this this week
and said how much they enjoy itor reached out it really means a
lot.
So I really appreciate it.

(02:22):
We appreciate you.
Cool, so awesome to be hereback in my home state of Texas.

Speaker 1 (02:27):
Welcome home.
Thank you Also.
Congratulations on theMavericks.
I have to say just a little bitof basketball talk.
The Dallas Mavericks NBA finalsparticipants.

Speaker 2 (02:36):
This podcast is actually a Dallas Mavericks
podcast.
I don't know if that wascommunicated in the materials.
So that cool, nice yeah.
So thank you to our host, karenMarston, chris Van Hoff, justin
Cook, as well as Dave Begnosh.
They worked tirelessly to putall this together.
If you see them, they're likehalf awake half the time because
the hours they put in, but buythem a drink.

(02:58):
If you see them, tell themthey're doing a great job.
We really appreciate them.
It's a tough job, reallyappreciate them.

Speaker 1 (03:04):
It's a very tough job .

Speaker 2 (03:05):
Give them a hug.
Give them a hug.
So we are very grateful to besupported by Houghton Horns.
They've been supporting us fora long time.
They're located in Keller,texas, not too far away On your
way home.
Stop by the showroom.
It's an amazing place, amazingpeople.
Stop by the booth and theexhibits.
It's in the last room.
My signature mouthpieces arethere.
We've been developing them fora couple of years.

(03:25):
They just came out a couple ofmonths ago, really excited about
them.
Tender Trumbo mouthpieces.
Come try them before they sellout.
Wow, cool.
And I'd also like to thank ourunofficial sponsor, whataburger.

Speaker 1 (03:37):
Yes, the honey butter chicken biscuit has really
fueled us throughout to thispoint, and they're still good.
I miss them dearly.
When I come to texas and that'sthe first place I go after I
get a beef rib.

Speaker 2 (03:49):
It's really supporting the hunger at 2 am.
It's really important 24 hours.
Yes, supported grad school.
It supported everything.
We really appreciate waterburger for their support.
Thank you, water burger.
Um uh.
Taquitos.
Sausage, egg and cheesetaquitos no honey butter chicken
biscuit, one hash brown.
That's enough.
If you're kind of hungry, youadd a hash brown, that's all you

(04:10):
need, okay, cool.
So our special guest today.
We are honored to invite.
We've hung out a little bit,we've been playing phone tag and
we've had a lot of close callsto schedule this interview and
we finally found a great venueworthy of him.
Six-time winner of the DownbeatMagazine Best Trombone Poll.
15-time winner of the JazzJournalists Association

(04:32):
Trombonist of the Year Award 20solo albums.
One of the most importantvoices in the trombone and jazz
world today.
Please welcome Mr WycliffeGordon.
Thank you.

Speaker 1 (04:50):
Mr Wycliffe Gordon, welcome, welcome.
How are you doing today?

Speaker 3 (04:59):
Doing pretty good.
Thanks for having me, Helloeveryone.

Speaker 2 (05:05):
I heard it was a bit of an adventure getting in here.

Speaker 3 (05:07):
Yes, for quite a few folks, as a matter of fact, I
think quite a few didn't make it.
I was close to being one ofthose, so I got in about 1130,
1145 last night and I wasscheduled to get here at 730.
But due to the nice weatherthat we've been having Texas,
yeah well I had family memberswho told me.

(05:28):
They said are you sure you'regoing to make it?
I said, well, I hope so.
If I'm flying the plane,probably not, but anyway so yeah
, but it was an adventuregetting here and even more of an
adventure after we got on theground to get my lift to the
hotel and it just startedpouring down rain.
I was like, oh man, I'm happythat the plane the airplane

(05:49):
landed.
Now I'm just hoping to get tothe hotel, but anyway, here
nonetheless for the ITF.
Only would I do this, so happyto be here with you guys.

Speaker 2 (05:59):
Yeah, so you're feeling super fresh right now
super awake.
Somewhat, somewhat I mean meanfor a jazz musician, would you
say something like at 10 am inthe morning, that's basically
two in the middle of the night,kind of feeling I don't know are
you an early riser?

Speaker 3 (06:15):
I am okay bucking the trend, all right I've been
sleeping until about 8 or 8 30,but normally I'm up around
sleeping into 8 okay if I'mworking till 4 o'clock in the
morning, then I'll sleep until10.
So but I'm an early writerbecause I'm a jazz musician, but
I'm also a professor, I teachand I still perform.

(06:37):
So most of the time if I'mworking, like today, normally I
would just take a flight in themorning, but now that I've
gotten a little older I don't dothat anymore.
I put days around.
So I'm there and, just likelast night, if I had anything to
do last night I would havemissed it.
Matter of fact, I did missdinner with Yamahata.

(06:58):
He said when I take you todinner at 6, I said I don't land
until 730.
And so we can get some drinksafterwards.
Well, that don't know.
9 until 7.30.
And so we can get some drinksafterwards.
Well, that didn't happen either.
I barely caught the bar at theheight.
But anyway, priorities, yeah,that's conversation for some
other time, but I'm a prettyearly rider.

Speaker 2 (07:15):
All right, all right.
So how often do you come tothese kind of things?
Big trombone festival.

Speaker 3 (07:25):
I didn't come last year but I was here the year
before.
If I'm available and I try toget the schedule far enough in
advance to where I can attend,but I did the one in Redwood
City in California where, whenJoe Alessi was the Grand Poobah
president of the ITF, I rememberdoing one in Birmingham,
england, which was really nice,just to go over there and see

(07:46):
the different groups and toparticipate there.
So I've been to about five orsix of them.
So unfortunately I can't makeit every year.

Speaker 2 (07:56):
But it's a different experience, right?
I mean, we're performing allthe time, but it's rare we're
performing for such a highconcentrated trombone audience.

Speaker 3 (08:04):
Yes, so true.
We were talking backstage aboutthe benefit of bringing
students to.
Something like this is soimportant.
I mean not just for thestudents but for us especially,
because we don't get a chance tosee one another that often.
So when we get a chance to gettogether, it's a great time to
fellowship with our fellowcolleagues, to play in classical

(08:27):
jazz, whatever they're doing,and it's just like oh it's, it's
a great time to get together,and it's also great for the
students not to just hear themusic but to see that as well.
And I remember one of my firstITFs was when they had it at
Cornell.
University in Ithaca and my sonwas 15.
I'm Corey Wilcox and he that washis first trombone festival.

(08:51):
I got him his first trombonewhen he was nine and he's
pedaled around with it.
Then, 13, he started practicingand 15, he was practicing.
Then I took him to that and hewas in the room and saw all of
the trombones and all of thetrombone players and the
classical trombone players andthe jazz trombone players and
the competitions and for him Ithink it just sparked something

(09:13):
inside of him to just want to dothis and he started loving the
trombone, I think around 13.
And then, on the way to New York, we were driving back to New
York City and I stopped to seesome friends of mine in
Rochester, new York, and theywere playing, and Corey was with
me, he had a hornet I said yeah, that's your son.

(09:33):
I said yes.
He said play trumpet.
I said I haven't gone up andplayed blues.
He could play.
He had some stuff together.
He checked out some of myrecordings and he was throwing
my stuff in my face and I saidwell, the only thing about those
recordings, I haven't recordedeverything I actually can play.
So then I threw some stuff inhis face and I mean and he said,

(09:54):
dad, I'm gonna get you one day,and which was like a greatest
feeling for me.
I said that's what I want.
But you know, having see thathappen in my, my own son and for
other students that I've gottenthe chance to witness,
participate and just whetherthey're performing or just
coming to the ITF to do this, isjust another way to just

(10:15):
reassure about our community andit strengthens it.

Speaker 1 (10:20):
It really does that camaraderie and that's why I
think the ITF is such a uniquefestival in the brass world,
because you have the personalityof trombonists.
We're the coolest people in theworld.

Speaker 3 (10:30):
Yes.

Speaker 1 (10:31):
And we all get in the same room and it's just, it's
positive vibes and I think thatit's.
We have to cherish that andit's so nice to see that in
students and for my studentsthat are here as well you see
that transformative, thatimmense perspective that you get
from being at this festival.
Have you ever brought students,other students, here?

Speaker 3 (10:51):
Not to the ITF but to the Midwest Clinic in Chicago,
because I don't have a greatlarge trombone studio but we do

(11:11):
have other students that's likea wind ensemble that are not
necessarily in the jazz band.
So there you just like, herenot just trombone, but you get
the wind ensemble, you get thechoir you.
So we've taken students to somefestivals, but I have yet to
bring any to the itf and I'm notsure where it's going to be
next year.
But maybe I'll do that if I canget them to practice yeah,
that's the ultimate question.

Speaker 2 (11:23):
So, like I, I'm curious just hearing you talk
about that, your performingschedule.
You're all over the world allthe time and when you're
performing for an audience at afestival like this, is there any
sort of different energy inyour mind?
Or do you feel different whenyou're performing for a room
full of trombonists, or is itjust kind of you're always
central to who you are?

Speaker 3 (11:42):
I don't really think about it, but in the back of my
mind probably.
Yes, you're conscious.
They're listening for what.
You have the trombone players.
You have the audience.
That's one thing.
But when you have an audiencefull of musicians that play your
same instrument, it's somethingspecial.
But for me now, at this point inmy career, I feel pretty

(12:04):
comfortable just sharing,because I always say, like Duke
Ellington would say this, makethis quote he said it's better
to be a number one you than anumber two somebody else.
So so, however you are,wherever you are, it's cool,
because wherever you are now,you're on your way to either
something better or you'retrying to develop.

(12:27):
But we do go through thosestages where we were studying,
like you know, jj Johnson.
We're going to do a concertwith JJ Johnson tomorrow night.
It's like, ah, you have to learnthat language and that
repertoire.
And why do we do that?
Well, now you have something inyour bag that you can pull from
.
It's like, why sit there andfish through trying to figure

(12:48):
out what to play, and if you'reimprovising, I'm thinking about
f minus seven equals f, a flat cand e, and then the chord scale
relationship, then the positionand then the range, and then I
say, just sing it.
And when you internalize all ofthose things, it's like it can
just come natural to you.
So, anyway, and just acceptthat I'll just share a quick

(13:11):
story of why I say that.

Speaker 2 (13:13):
We don't have time for stories on the podcast.

Speaker 3 (13:15):
Well, this is not a story.
This is a not story.
No, I remember when I firststarted playing professionally
at that level and to playprofessionally just means you
get paid for it.
But I started playing withWynton and after about two or
three years, on the road withhim, a friend of mine from high
school named Keith called me,had a tape, cassette tape.
I think some of you out thereknow what that is, others of you

(13:39):
may not, but he had a recordingof me playing in high school
and they said man, there's atune called Dog Days.
You know, I had my little solo.
He played it for me on thephone and I said hey, man, I'll
give you any amount of money,don't let anybody hear that.
And I saw him a couple of weekslater and he gave me the tape
and I listened to it and Ichanged my mind, or changed my

(14:00):
perspective, because that'swhere I was in high school.
Four or five years later I'vebeen practicing.
I'm supposed to sound better orto develop, whatever that means
to you.
And then I was no longerashamed of what I sounded like,
because it was me and I soundedthen exactly like I sound now.
I just I was able to play thetrombone a little better.

(14:23):
I learned new techniques topractice and how to practice.
So I had a little bit moremastery of the instrument, but I
learned to not be ashamed ofwhere I was.
So that's why I say be a numberone, you.
Wherever you are, you're onyour way to developing your best
self, and wherever you are iscool.

Speaker 2 (14:43):
Absolutely.
I mean, that's the thing wetalk about a lot on this podcast
is we're celebrating individualstories.
It's so easy.
Especially and you see it a lotin classical too is this idea
of we're all trying to be thebest version of one thing
instead of celebrating ourindividuality and our unique
voice, and it's like it's arecipe for depression when

(15:04):
you're constantly comparingyourself to other people and
just trying to be better thansomeone else instead of, oh,
what's my 100%, what's the bestversion of me that I can focus
on.
So that's a mindset it seemslike you've developed over time
and then like it sounds likehalf of that is just accepting
where you are at the moment.

Speaker 3 (15:22):
It is.
And when you walk out onto thestage, regardless of who's in
the audience, if you're coolwith who you are, then you just
hope that people will be coolwith who you are and where you
are as well.
I tell my audiences all thetime, particularly when I'm
playing in a club or venue, buteven at a concert hall, halfway
through the show I'm like man,we're having a good time,

(15:43):
they're playing with my band.
I said I hope.
I said I hope that you all areenjoying yourselves and having a
good time.
And then in the jazz club theymay clap and I said I don't say
that because I'm looking forapplause.
We're having a great time.
And if you find that you'resitting there and you're not
having a good time, it'sprobably your fault.
And I say that to my audiencesall the time.
They laugh.
And I say that to my audiencesall the time.

(16:03):
They laugh.
I'm just serious.
So if you're going toparticipate.
just enjoy your time, Enjoy themusic.

Speaker 2 (16:12):
That's the only thing you can control, right?
You can't control how anaudience is going to react,
right?
All you can control is how muchyou're enjoying it and the
energy and love you're puttinginto it, right?

Speaker 3 (16:21):
Yes, and if you're doing that, I'd say 9.9 times
out of 10 it will transfer tothe audience and they'll receive
it yeah, as an audience member,when I see someone having fun,
I have fun, and vice versa.

Speaker 1 (16:34):
If I see you on the stage and you look miserable, oh
man yeah, and yeah, this isyeah this is something that we
have to work on constantly, evenat the college and university
level.

Speaker 3 (16:47):
Just stage presence.
That's the really good point.
If you don't look like you'rehaving a good time, then how can
you expect?
You know your audience.
It's going to go out there.
You're looking miserable onstage.
You don't have to be smilingand chucking and jiving, but if
you enjoy what you're doing,share that with folks and when
they clap for you hopefully it'snot because you stopped playing

(17:08):
, but because they enjoyed whatyou were playing they're saying
thank you and you say you'rewelcome.
So the audience is a veryimportant part of any
performance, but particularlyfor me.
I don't ever get on the stageand decide I'm going to play for
myself or just for themusicians.
People are here, so I do thatin the practice room when I'm

(17:29):
working it out.
But when people are here,within the first three or four
tunes I'm going to try to playsomething maybe from swing or
something from the bebop orsomething from early jazz, and
try to read the audience and seewho's there and what they're
reacting to, and that'simportant.

Speaker 2 (17:46):
How much does that get you going when you have a
great audience and they'rereally just giving you a lot of
energy back?

Speaker 3 (17:51):
Try to just ride that with them A couple of times.
It's different.
Sometimes, when you walk out onstage and you have an audience,
and particularly students, likeI did, it was a music educators
convention somewhere in Indiana, ball State and it was.
They had like 1,800, I think,music students and at that

(18:17):
college and it may not have beenBall State- they don't have a
music major.
They're all majoring in physicsand studying some science and
be astronauts, but they are.
I don't know if there's anastronaut class.

Speaker 2 (18:32):
I majored in astronaut.

Speaker 3 (18:35):
I may have majored in what's your major Astronaut, so
anyway but they had in thosetypes of vocations, even like at
University of Scranton wherethere's no music major, and
those types of vocations, evenlike at University of Scranton
where there's no music major butstudents want to play music,
and they had like 1,800 studentsin their music department and
they have folks that teach music.

(18:55):
But anyway, the point I wastrying to make, they had a lot
of kids there and I walked outon stage, man, and from the time
that I walked on the stage andthe applause is cool, but when
the kids are like that rush.
Yeah, I say, oh man, they'rehere.
And I think, deep down, mostpeople in the audience, they
want for us to perform well.
They're cheering for us, notjust after we perform, but they

(19:18):
want that.
And I say, if you feel goodwhen you came in, you should
feel great by the time you leave.
And if you feel great when youcame in, you feel great by the
time you leave.
If you feel great when you camein, you should feel greater.

Speaker 2 (19:27):
That's what our job is, so we forget that sometimes,
right, especially when we'reperforming, it's like you know,
and we're all teachers and wehave students that will perform,
and a lot of times it feelslike you're taking a test or
you're about to.
All those fight or flightsymptoms come in and the
simplest thing sometimes thoughit's harder to practice is like
what you're saying is likeeveryone wants to have a good

(19:48):
time at the end of the day,right, we're all here to have a
good time and enjoy music.

Speaker 1 (19:51):
Yes, you rarely show up and you're like I want to
have a bad time I hope this isterrible.

Speaker 2 (19:56):
Yeah, like he misses all the notes yeah all right
1967, may 29th.
All right 1967,.

Speaker 3 (20:08):
May 29th, waynesboro, georgia.
Growing up in Augusta, right,yes, most of my formative years
were in Augusta.
I was born in Waynesboro at age10, and then moved to Augusta.
So the proximity of Waynesboroto Augusta is 30 miles.
Waynesboro is very rural.
To Augusta's 30 miles,waynesboro is very rural, but
when I was young we did have adairy queen, but then where my

(20:32):
folks were born was calledSardis and what they had was
like one country stores, a lotof farmland and a lot of my
people were farmers.
But so Waynesboro, if you livedin Waynesboro to go to Augusta,
that was like a big city.
But if you lived in augusta togo to atlanta, that was like the
big city.
You know, if you lived inatlanta to go to new york or

(20:54):
california, chicago or detroit Isaid california, but la, you
know a larger city oh man, it'sa big city.
And if you live in new york oryou travel around the world, you
go, but you always come back toNew York because everything
that's in New York is all overanyway.
But Waynesboro is just 30minutes from Augusta.
So it's a different city butit's 30 minutes away.

Speaker 2 (21:18):
And what's childhood like?

Speaker 3 (21:20):
My childhood.
Oh, it was I'm country, I'm acountry dude.
When I joined Winsman they saidman, you're country.
It's like they're ribbing orsomething like that.
But I enjoyed it.
And on some weekends during thesummer we'd go to my cousin's
farm.
We weren't old enough to dothat my older cousins, they were
farming, but they would let usride on the tractor and things

(21:41):
like that.
They would let us ride on thetractor and things like that.
But being there the first time,my father played and studied
classical piano.
He loved Beethoven, mozart,schumann, schubert and he had an
upright grand piano.
He had a reel-to-reel recorderwith classical piano music on it
and he was like a radio man inthe Air Force.
So he put speakers in everyroom so we heard classical music

(22:03):
all the time.
Practical application orperforming.
We heard him in church, so weheard gospel music.
I didn't hear jazz until later.
I think I was 13 or 14.
But growing up in Waynesboro Igot a chance to see my first
band.
Otherwise, I heard music on theradio, classical piano music at
home and gospel music in church, and so in first grade they had

(22:28):
a service band from the Armycome and they played.
It was like a big band.
And then they played and theyfeatured every instrument.
They had a saxophone to play.
It said demonstrate, and thetrombone was like, or whatever
he played.
And the trumpet they taught usin church, that's the sound that
blew down the walls of jerichopiano.

(22:49):
I heard that all my life.
And then the bass.
It was electric bass, oh cool.
And then the drum.
The drummer played.
I was like, oh, eureka, that'sme that's it.
And that's what I wanted to playhigh, low, the rhythm.
And I went home and just beganbegging my parents for a drum

(23:11):
set.
They were like absolutely not.
So anyway, but that was myfirst experience with and I
didn't even know that it wasjazz.
It was just because when I wentto junior high school we called
it stage man music.

Speaker 2 (23:26):
So yeah, so lucius was your father, so church
organists, so gospel I mean.

Speaker 3 (23:33):
So you're hearing gospel even before you're
getting into like serious jazzyeah, yep, gospel, but not just
the music but the way that adeacon would pray in the church
During the devotional service.
It's almost like a song, almostlike a work song.
It's like man he's singing.

(23:56):
I didn't know what that wasbecause I wasn't studying music,
but I was in that room andsometimes that's just a thing
that has to happen.
Maybe we can get into thislater, because I run into we say
classical.
There's two kinds of music andtwo kinds of musicians the good
kind and the other kind.
So there's no separation.
But I would.

(24:16):
I was in the room and I tellfolks all the time well, I don't
do this, I'm not improvised, Isay you just go into the room.
Well, I don't know what thatsounds like, go into the room
and well, I don't do this, Idon't improvise, I say, just go
into the room, well, I don'tknow what that sounds like, go
into the room and well, I'll saysomething about that a little
later.
So, to answer your question,yes, I heard that.
That was a sound that was in myear.
But the way that the preacherwould preach and the way that he

(24:37):
would speak and things andelements that we use in jazz
like call and response, theresponse of readings, like from
the pastor to the congregationor from the leader of a song in
the choir to the choir, that'ssinging with them, so all of
those things I grew up hearing.
I didn't have musicalterminology to put it with, but

(24:57):
it was embedded and ingrained inme and we called it gospel
music.
And it was because we'resinging about God and Jesus and
it was in the church and wecalled it gospel music.
And it was because we'resinging about God and Jesus and
it was in the church and we callit gospel.
But it's just music, and I'lltell you why later on.
For me, once I started playingjazz, it was a little difficult

(25:18):
because if you grew up into thechurch folks said there's two
kinds of music sacred andsecular.
I didn't even know those termsthen, but they called it god's
music and the devil's music.
And they said that anythingthat's not gospel is the devil's
music.
And I'm like I say thissometimes, um, when I'm
performing, because I'm like,well, if jazz is the devil's

(25:38):
music, I was in a bit of aconundrum.
I was like man, that's thedevil got some good music, I
don't know, and so and luckilywe come to find out that's just
a way of thinking or a way thatpeople perceive things, and
that's not the case, because allmusic is spiritual and anyway.
So.
But that was my, that was alarge part of my upbringing and

(25:59):
even before I started playingtrombone, a large part of the
palette of how I hear sound, theway that people would speak or
the way that people would talk,the way they would sing, so and
it was a part of my formativeyears.
So that's what I heard.
I did hear classical music andI still love it, but when I'm
playing and I want to beexpressive, the expressiveness

(26:20):
of someone singing and how theywould deliver a song, it was
like, oh wow, that's, that'sthat, that's wonderful.
And even before I knew whatthat was, I was in that room, so
I love that because it's likeit's, I feel, like every
musician.

Speaker 2 (26:35):
It's that instinctual stuff that you get at the early
age, before you even have wordsto describe what you're
learning and experiencing.
It's so deeply ingrained in youthat really just comes out and
that's like the most importantthing.
And we add on top of it bygetting formal education,
everything but nothing changeslike those first experiences and
that's such a beautifulexperience and I'll say this

(26:55):
just happens.

Speaker 3 (26:57):
I'll say, 99 percent of the time when I'm dealing
with students, I don't care ifthey're reading, if it's they're
studying classical piece, Idon't even use those terms.
But if we're working onliterature associated with
classical music, which all mytrombone students have to do,
you have to do the basics.
There's no way around it.
You can't be a great tromboneplayer flute, oboe, lute or

(27:17):
anything if you don't master thebasics of playing instruments.
So and a lot of the pedagogydeals with those things
Melodious etudes, arbenz,sometimes Blasewicz, clef
studies.
And I say how deep do you wantto go?
And I said just turn the musicaround, every jazz band, high
school or college, and you cantell when they play that they're

(27:38):
pretty familiar with the music,particularly when they start
improvising and they're lookingat changes.
I say stop, is your solowritten out?
No, I said what are you lookingat the changes?
I said why?
And they're computing,computing.
I said man, turn the standaround and they start to play.
And I said don't worry aboutthe change, play what it is that

(27:59):
you're hearing.
I can tell you played it wellenough, you know that solo, so
play it without looking at itand immediately.
It just sounds natural, likeyou're having a conversation, it
doesn't sound contrived, andI've done that with whole bands,
big bands, before, also highschool.
I say, hey, you sound like youall know this music.
Turn your stands around andwhen they have to play they're

(28:22):
not stuck looking at the pageand computing and putting the
information in there, but justfeeling and be able to
internalize music.
It's like, oh man, I forgot acouple of notes, but what did
that feel like?
And it's like I said so try it,get off the page sometime.
I don't care if you're playingDavid concerto, if you're
playing, whether you're playingand that's not carnival,

(28:43):
bluebells or Scotland orwhatever it is.
And I said but you want to workon, take all that information
that you have now trust yourself.
And that came from seeing when Iwas playing with Lincoln Center
Jazz Orchestra.
We were doing Grieg's PierGantt Suite and at the end of
the night our first concert waswith the New York Philharmonic

(29:05):
and you all know Joe Alessi,great trombonist, master
trombonist, who delves inimprovisation as well as doing
and everything else Phil Smithwould play.
So when we play at the end ofthe night we may do like C jam
blues.
I don't hear anybody in theLincoln Center Jazz Orchestra
play.
That's what that is, that'swhat we do all the time.
But then when someone in thePhilharmonic plays, like oh wow,

(29:28):
they don't really get a chanceto hear and see that.
So when we went to Chicago andother orchestras that we played
with and they would stand up andimprovise, it's like, oh man, I
didn't know they could do that.
Now some of them probablyshouldn't have.
Man, I didn't know they coulddo that.
Now some of them probablyshouldn't have.
And I'm not saying from thestandpoint not to try, but
there's just a little over eagerand overzealous and it's just

(29:50):
like and but, and that's it.
You just, we just need tochannel that energy.
But there was, we played withChicago Symphony Orchestra and
we were playing and most of thetimes we were situated down in
front and the orchestra wasaround us and we started playing
and Phil Smith was playing.
And then folks were playinglike yeah, they're sounding

(30:10):
great.
And we were playing in Chicagoand this clarinet player stood
up and sounded like Artie Shaw,benny Goodman and all rolled up
into one and the whole LincolnCenter Jazz Orchestra did like
this.
It was like who that?
Yeah exactly who's that?
I mean he mastered the languageof the classical music, that he
was playing that repertoire andhe's just like.

(30:31):
I mean sydney bichette, I'mlike man, who is this cat?
We thought that one of our guyshad gotten up and gone back
there and I was like I said and,and I say it all the time, once
you get the, get a conceptualway of playing it, that's just
learning.
And I say sing it.
That's my master class.
All the time I sing it first.
If you sing accurately and intune, that means that you can

(30:52):
hear it and that you'veinternalized it.
And anyway, I'm not going tomake, I'm not going to go into
that master class, but sometimesjust get off the page, just
turn the paper around and havefun with it.
And even if you miss a note andit's so amazing when the
students stop doing, when theystop doing this and then they
have to I said, close your eyesif you want to but just play.

Speaker 1 (31:14):
It forces you to say something.
You gotta say something.

Speaker 3 (31:17):
It's like because what you're going to say and I
say this, even when I write myarrangements, particularly for
piano and drums, I said, saidI'm going to try to write piano
parts because if I got Eric Reidor somebody in the piano or
Herlin Riley playing drums, forpublishing reasons I'll have to
put something.
But other than that I'll justleave it blank.
And I learned that from Wynton.
He would just get to a part ina composition.

(31:39):
He would just put somebody'sname down like Veal or Cone
create something, and he hisname down like ville or cone
create something.
And it's like and they would,he said, because you're going to
create something much hipperthan I can write for you to play
, and sometimes you trust peopleto do that.
But you get people that cantrust themselves and just turn
the page around, do it.
If you practice doing it thenin the practice room, then then

(32:02):
on the bandstand it becomesnothing.

Speaker 2 (32:05):
Same thing.
That's the challenge, right,and I imagine you've worked with
classical musicians that arebewildered and really wanted to
be able to do these things.
But I feel like with classicalmusicians, it's like we're so
used to rules and like I have todo this way and it has to be
this way, and it's just like acompletely different side of
your brain sometimes and whenyou're just like, okay, start

(32:27):
with singing, hear what you wantto sound like, feel what you
want to feel like, and not worryabout perfection, and it's like
it's freeing.
But it's hard to let gosometimes so you're saying you
just have to force it, liketrying to stand around and sing
instead of being limited by like, oh, I'm going to do what I'm
capable of doing on myinstrument.
No, think about what you wantto.
What's the greatest scenario inmy brain that I can imagine?

(32:49):
Then figure out how to do itfrom your singing.

Speaker 3 (32:52):
Yes, and it's great to have someone with you that
might have a little moreexperience doing it than you
Like.
A student asked me a couplemonths ago, said what are you
working on?
A couple months ago I said whatare you working on?
I'm going to take a lesson withyou.
I'm working on sight reading.
So how are you doing that?
Because I just opened a bookand I said start planning.
I said, yeah, that's great, butdo you have anybody that's
checking out what you're doingto say whether or not you're

(33:13):
planning correctly or not?
Because you can work on sightreading and I know I didn't have
private lessons.
I didn't know the benefit ofprivate lessons when I first
started and my parents probablycouldn't afford it anyway, so I
developed a lot of bad habits.
So with that, that first ITF inBirmingham, I did that, which
started this master class that Ido now called Sing it.

(33:35):
First it had a much longertitle, but I said I want a jazz
trombonist to come up, someonethat's comfortable playing jazz,
and then a trombonist that hasplayed no jazz.
Let me show you how easy it isto improvise in less than five
minutes.
Now, it was just a concept.
They didn't learn all the JJJohnson solos, or Frank Rosalino

(33:56):
or Carl Fontana Curtis Fuller.
It wasn't that.
But I said we're going to takelike what you said use the rules
.
And I can see that even whenfolks stand up to play and you,
that's good, learn the rules.
Now let's break them a littlebit or bend them.
And so I said we'll take thetune, all the things you are

(34:18):
simple melody, just the firsteight bars, and they'll learn
that.
Or, the jazz trombonist knew it, the classical trombonist
learned it.
I said now you're going to singit, you're going to sing it

(34:40):
accurately and in tune.
And they did that.
So when I sat down to the pianoso I'm gonna slow everything
down I want you to play thismelody and and then I want you
to sing the melody and once youget them off the horn, it's like
okay, now you don't.
You know you don't have thefingering and ambers, you're
setting the right mode ofresonance, got to use your ear.

(35:01):
And so I said that's good.
So now I'm gonna give you anexample and I'll play and we're
going to sing something inphrases about this tempo One,
two, three, four, ba, do, do,dee, ba, do, ba, da, da, do, do,
do, be, dee do so.

(35:21):
That's the melody.
But I'll say now I want you toplay, and then I'll stop
swinging and just put like agroove on it and I just want you
to sing what you hear.
Because when you the firsteight bars, you have seven
different chord changes F minor7, b flat minor 7, e flat 7, a

(35:42):
flat major 7, d flat major 7,and then G seven and two bars of
C seven.
But you only have two differenttonalities and when you're
sitting there thinking about allthat computing, it's like you
sit down to the piano, that'sall those, the first five bars,
all A flat major scale.
I would go over to the piano anddemonstrate, but trust me, and

(36:05):
I said now all I want you to dois just sing Now.
And so the jazz trombonist well, he can play, because he had
some licks, he'd work out andwhatnot.
And the classical trombonistwas fishing.
I said now put the horn down,sing, because when you're
singing you don't have to thinkabout positions, you're just
using your ear.
And sometimes they keep theirrange a little limited.
But I'll say, say, go outsideof the range, listen to these

(36:28):
chord changes.
And one of the great things wehave nowadays that we didn't
have when I was growing up islike ireal pro and all of that,
even before the jamie abersolrecords.
Y'all know records are lps.
They look like this think someof you do but so you have that
at your disposal now.
And then at that master class Isaid now just sing something and

(36:52):
just sing a simple phrase, singa simple phrase over the first
four bars.
He did that.
I said now sing it and thenplay it.
And then he sang something andthen he played what he sang.
It wasn't written down, hewasn't thinking about chord
changes and it was close enoughbecause we all practice scales,
arpeggios and things like that.

(37:13):
But when you start to sing itthen you're not so focused on
what the fingering is, what theposition is, what the key change
is and all of that.
And I said it was less thanthree minutes, much shorter than
the time I just took to explainit.
But the guy and I'm a shut upthe guy was improvising I said
see, that's improvisation.

(37:33):
So if you learn, you sing themelody and then with that tune,
the root movement is like aparallel motion and I said and
forth and that's what I sent toall of the students.
I said you know, just try it.
It's no, it's just one, two,three, four whole notes, then
quarter quarter, quarter,quarter quarter, a simple melody

(37:55):
.
But the whole concept andprinciple behind improvisation
is which is where you can build.
And once you start doing that,it's that simple.
But it would be good to havesomeone to have some experience
helping you along.
Sorry, I'm sorry.

Speaker 2 (38:10):
I thank you for offering to be my private jazz
teacher.
I appreciate that, sure, umanytime.
Okay, let's get back to yourlife a little bit my life okay
that is my life yeah, well, yeah, obviously okay.
So piano was first for you.

Speaker 3 (38:24):
Yes, my dad tried to get us that's what we had at
home in the house and he triedto get us to play piano.
I was like four, five, sixyears old but, being a boy
growing up in the country, itwas hard to sit to the piano.
And you hear the boys outsidehey, throw the ball.
I don't want to be in here, Idon't want to do this play, and

(38:46):
so my dad didn't make us.
He let us go outside.
We played marbles and when wein the country, when we thought
that wrestling was real we couldhave broken our necks or
anything, but yeah, so but yes,oh, I remember when I found out
wrestling wasn't real, like wait, I, literally I was seven to be
fair.

Speaker 2 (39:05):
But yeah, that was a tough day when my hero Hulk
Hogan wasn't.

Speaker 3 (39:09):
I cried when the Dallas Cowboys lost Super Bowl
XIII.
Anyway, go ahead.

Speaker 2 (39:17):
We're not here to talk about that.
Dallas Cowboys.
No, this is going to be a happypodcast.

Speaker 3 (39:20):
Okay.

Speaker 2 (39:21):
All right, sorry, and we're going to get to the 23
instruments you play.
Is that correct?

Speaker 1 (39:28):
Not at the same time.

Speaker 2 (39:30):
Not the same.
You should practice more, then.

Speaker 3 (39:33):
Man, get your act together.

Speaker 2 (39:35):
So how did we come to trombone?

Speaker 3 (39:38):
Trombone.
We moved to Augusta when I was10.
And then when my brother wentto junior high school, when I
was 10 and then when my brotherwent to junior high school, we
had you could have up to threeelectives.
One had to be PE, then they hadwood shop, home economics and
other auto shop and band.
My brother chose to be in theband.
He wanted to play trumpet orsaxophone.
All the boys or drums and mostband directors I don't need any

(40:01):
more drummers, I need.
But the band directors suggestedthat he play trombone and my
parents got him a trombone andhe came home with the trombone
and then I was like we're a yearapart, my older brother, lucius
, and so if he got something Iwanted it.
That could be a popsicle, adump truck, didn't matter.
Trombone was like I want one.
And my mom said, well, theydon't have a music program at

(40:23):
your school and technically theydidn't.
But there was a man that wouldcome by and for we had to take
PE, but the second half of yourPE class, if you can get an
instrument, he would teach ushow to play an instrument.
And I said, mom did, that'sthis guy.
He comes by the school and it'snot a band class, but, and so

(40:44):
they got me a trombone and Ifell in um love with it, my
first do you remember the firsttrombone you had?
first trauma?
Oh, the Bundy, of course.

Speaker 2 (40:53):
Bundy, bundy, of course is there another student?

Speaker 3 (40:56):
well, I guess everyone makes student model
horns then, but Bundy was thebest student model horn ever
made.
I don't know, but yeah, it wasa Monday straight tenor horn,
and so it was.
That was my introduction totrombone.

Speaker 2 (41:13):
Was it a love at first sight kind of thing, or
Absolutely not.

Speaker 3 (41:16):
It's a trombone.
Who loves trombone?
At first sight, that was atrick question Just making sure,
but it was an instrument,seriously, it was an instrument
that I had and so I wanted tolearn to play it.
I know the first note was infirst position and then in
second position.
We learned is what I meant, youknow.
Third, because we mark thirdwith the finger.

Speaker 1 (41:39):
The bell.

Speaker 3 (41:40):
Yeah, with the bell yeah, and that note being an E
flat.
And then next year I went tojunior high school with my
brother, which was the last yearof junior high school, being
eighth and ninth grade, and thenwe went to the middle school
system after that.
But I really loved playing andI liked to practice.
It was on the horn horn and Iwas like, oh, that trombone, I

(42:01):
love my trombone.
I'd be playing and my mom wouldsay hey, stop, just put it down,
go do something else.
And then even, and then, when Igot in high school, at our
junior high school springconcert we had two classes that
were going to a high school, soall the high school students
came and of course we wereplaying all the music that they

(42:23):
played when they were at theirjunior high school in the stage
band and the concert band.
And I remember the first time Iheard jazz recording.
A great aunt of mine had passedand amongst the things that
were bequeathed to the familywas this five record collection
set of jazz and it was fromearly jazz to modern jazz and at

(42:44):
that time it was like sonnyrollins quintet, count bassy,
big band, but it started likeearly slave chants.
I love the music from neworleans which is near and dear
to me and it had some band,lewis armstrong.
The song that um he they had inthat compilation was Keyhole
Blues, but another band playingwhen the Saints go marching in.
So me and a buddy of mine had abet.

(43:05):
His name was Brian Hillman, heplayed trumpet.
We had a solo that was 32 bars,he had 16 and I had 16.
And of course at that stagethey're written out and I said,
well, I'm going to play part ofmy written solo.

Speaker 2 (43:23):
Then I'm gonna make up the rest of I and he said I'm
gonna do the same thing.

Speaker 3 (43:25):
I said, okay, let's go for it, and we did our thing.
That probably was not killing,but the fact that we did it and
the response we got us like, ohman, that's.
It was a nice feeling to trysomething off the page.
And then that sent me on thatpath to learning to do that,
which included, um, learningtranscriptions and things like
that.
But, um, yeah, once I startedplaying trombone and by the time

(43:47):
I got to high school I was likeI was really loving it so I
would practice all the time.
My mom worked the graveyardshift and that, so she had to be
the 11th.
She's leaving home 10, 30 whatwas she doing?

Speaker 1 (43:58):
a nurse nurse yeah, was your brother still playing
at this time as well?

Speaker 3 (44:02):
okay, it was my brother lucius.
He still plays, but he's a pa.
He went to the physician'sassistant in the army.
He didn't want to.
The path for us was to go tocollege and get a music degree
to teach.
We didn't think aboutperforming or anything like get
a music education degree.

(44:23):
And he did that.
But when he, I think he went toAlcorn in Mississippi man, he
in Longman Mississippi he did astudent teaching and after that
experience he said I'm not gonnabe a music teacher, I'm gonna
go in the army and do somethingelse.
Well, me, on the other hand, Ireally did want to do that, just

(44:44):
to continue to play music.
So, and that's where my pathled me.
But my band director, late MrHarkness Butler, was great.
He had me auditioning for theAll-County Band, the 10th
District Band, the All-StateBand and even the McDonald's
All-American High School Band,and I don't know if he knew that

(45:06):
he gave me permission not to beafraid to do anything.
He would always say you can doit, cliff, you can do it Cliff.
So I'm like I'm going toaudition for everything.
So much that when even guyssaid, well, you can't do that on
the trombone, I was like youcan't do what?
So I'm not practicing until Iget it.
I said okay you can do this onthe trombone, but Mr Butler, he

(45:27):
was great and there were fiveother kids in our house.
So when it came time forAllstate or Georgia Music
Educators Association, oneparent couldn't leave the other
with the other five kids home.
So my band director took me.

Speaker 2 (45:44):
Yeah, so like you brought all your kids here.
Yeah, man.
So moving ahead florida a&m andplaying in the marching band
there, bam you.
Can you briefly tell us aboutyour experience there?

Speaker 3 (45:54):
it was fun.
I was in the best shape of mylife.
I wanted to go there because Ifigured with the marching band
program being so well known, Iwas like man, let's have a great
music department and whatnot,and I'm not gonna get too deep
into it, but I did learn quite abit while I was there.
I got my breathing andeverything together because we

(46:16):
had to physically be in shape,mentally be in shape and then
musically be in shape.
But I've been working on themusical part, like practicing
scales and things like that,because when I played with the
McDonald's man, there'ssomething about when you get
around musicians and people thatare equal or they're playing at
a higher level, it just raisesyour level or your awareness,

(46:40):
which can then give you theinspiration to do so.
And I was like there's 12trombonists and they picked two
students from each state in theUnited States.
12 trombonists.
There were nine tenortrombonists, three, two apart,
first, second, third and thenthree bass trombonists and I was
number nine.
I was at the bottom of the packlike everybody played better

(47:02):
than me.
I was like man, wow.
And then they had the McDonald'sAll-American, the jazz band,
and two guys from Georgia, stanWilkinson and myself and two
guys from New York, trombonists,bob Leone and Todd Lowry.
We made the audition for andmade the jazz band and those
cats could play.
I was like man and they hadrecordings of, like Bill

(47:23):
Walters' fourth floor walk-upand I was like man, that's a
trombone.
I was like man and it was on acassette and these cats could
play.
I was like man, show me thoselicks.
And it was just, it was reallyhip to be and they're our peers.
I'm like man.
These cats have been exposed tosome things and that kind of
inspired me even more.
But at FAMU I was in themarching band.

(47:44):
For four years I was in thejazz.

Speaker 1 (47:45):
The March of 100, you mean.

Speaker 3 (47:47):
Yes, the March of 100 .

Speaker 1 (47:49):
FAMU's marching band was awesome.

Speaker 3 (47:51):
Thank you, it was.
Yeah, oh, high step, well, andthen the 300 steps per minute it
was.
It looks like they're running,but they're not.
It said there's a concept thatyou would have to.
It takes a minute to learn andsomeone asked that's so not.

Speaker 2 (48:05):
You said you were going to demonstrate for us,
right?

Speaker 3 (48:07):
yes, I lied I did you can see if you close your eyes,
we can imagine me demonstrating.
I mean, I, I can, but there's apoint in driving.
I'd have to get to the edge ofthe stage because when your foot
hits the ground it makes twosounds the heel of your foot,
and then I have on Roka theseare very great shoes, by the way

(48:28):
.
You're not going to hear, butwe would have boots on and it'd
be like like if you hear a horsestep like, so, even that.
So we called it rattling,rattling, and when you're
rattling that fast, you have tobe in shape.
So someone asked me in aninterview afterwards they said

(48:50):
do you think that yourexperience at Florida A&M made
you a better musician or abetter player?
I said, well, yes, because eventhough they got some bad press
about things, some things thathappened after I left, it was
because it happened in the band.
It became about the band.
It was not of the band, becausethat's not the way that we did

(49:12):
things.
But I said yes.
And I remember specifically onenight we were practicing
getting ready for the halftimeshow, you know, for the football
game that weekend.
My freshman year I was thefreshman section leader.
My sophomore year I became thesection leader of the section
and for me you had to bephysically and mentally in shape

(49:32):
, but you also had to play.
And if we had to have the musicmemorized by Thursday, I told
my section we have to have itmemorized by Wednesday.
If not, see you tonight atmidnight, we're going to play
until we have it memorized.
But then there's those nightsthat we would practice and it
may be raining out, and so we dothe halftime show.
And they said we get to the endof the show and Dr Foster said

(49:56):
man, that's pretty good, butthat's not good enough for the
100.
Take it again.
So it's raining.
I said, all right, let's getthis.
And then we was like get to theend of the halftime show.
Man, that was a little bitbetter, but still not good
enough for the March of 100.
And I said, yeah, but it'sraining.
But what that taught us is toovercome whatever obstacles are

(50:17):
in the way.
And I taught us to overcomewhatever obstacles are in the
way and you can still do yourbest.
And so I turned around to thesection he had 24.
I said, man, let's get this now.
So regardless of the rain, thepuddles of mud, we had to do
that show like it was sunshineout, and one of the marches we
used to play was called In Stormand Sunshine and one of the

(50:39):
marches we used to play wascalled In Storm and Sunshine.
And so right now it's stormingbut we have to march as if we're
marching and the sun is shining.
So the band drum majors blewthe whistle, we brought it on,
did the whole halftime show andDoc Foster said now that's the
Marching 100.
Now it was raining even harder,but we're standing there at
attention.
And so just to give you aperspective, like a lot of the

(51:02):
guys, if they left collegebecause everyone wasn't music
majors but everyone wanted to bein that band, so if they played
in band they wanted to you hadto audition to get in the band.
But if some of them went to themilitary, I don't care which
branch Army, navy, air Force,marines they said boot camp was
supposed to be really difficult.
But if you went through theMarch of 100, they said boot
camp, that was a cakewalk.

(51:23):
They need to come have bootcamp, starting from pre-drill
with us.
So anyway, that was a way forus to say don't let the rain
stop you from getting to youraccomplishment, and and that
just translated to a lot ofdifferent things.
So I said yeah, in that respectI think that it did help me

(51:43):
because, like getting here lastnight, I'm like, oh man, I don't
know if I'm gonna, I'm gonnamake it.
And it was rain again, but itwas a thunderstorm.
Not if it was thunder andlightning, that's okay, I quit
the band, I'm going.

Speaker 1 (51:58):
But it was helpful in that manner well, that says a
lot, because that preparationand for those who don't know,
like HBCU marching bands, whenyou play, like halftime is the
show, like you go to thefootball game.
It's good, but you show up forthat band and that is such a
tight group and like that's ahigh level of excellence that's
instilled at you from a youngage and to have that translate

(52:21):
through your career as aperformer.
You mentioned that the guys youplayed with in All-American
Band they were better than youbut you had that sense of
excellence from that band andhow did that translate once you
evolved and became a moredynamic and well-known artist?

Speaker 3 (52:38):
That's a great question.
I always just kept my eye ondeveloping.
I would learn, like even in mystudies that I give to my
students.
Now I tell them this is by nomeans the path, it's just a path
that I took and I continued todo that.
And even after I startedplaying professionally with

(52:59):
Wynton then I learned how topractice because I didn't really
.
I continued to do that.
And even after I become startedplaying professionally with
Wynton, then I learned how topractice because I didn't really
know how to do that yeah, let's, can we talk about that?

Speaker 2 (53:06):
so you're talking about being the ninth player in
this group and then you go toFlorida A&M and then, judging by
the math here, you startedworking with Wynton like the
year after college.
How do you go from the ninthguy to playing with one of the
most famous jazz musicians inthe world?
So the next decade from justfor the audience 1989 to 1995,

(53:30):
you were playing with the WyntonSeptet and then your original
member of the Lincoln CenterJazz Orchestra in 1995 to 2000.
So how did your paths cross?

Speaker 3 (53:39):
Well, I met Wynton my sophomore year in college at
Florida A&M.
He came there to do a well, hedidn't do a concert.
This is Black History Month,February.
He came to give a lecture onjazz and its role in our society
and community and he came toour jazz band rehearsal and
that's the first time everybodyshowed up for one it's like, oh,

(54:01):
when your winter's coming?
I was, but I was listening tolewis armstrong at that point
and I heard a winter.
I said, oh, he looked like he'scool and he played classical
and jazz trumpet.
I heard about him but I wasn'treally checking him out.
So he came to our rehearsal andthe jazz band was there and our
jazz band instructor had us toplay for him.
It was cool.
Like I said, it's the firsttime everyone had come.

(54:23):
Then he started talking abouthow Count Basie or bands would
come up with tunes.
A lot of Count Basie's tunesare riff based.
Riff based, a four bar phrasethat repeats.
So he said I want the rhythmsection to play a blues and

(54:44):
every section come up with ariff.
I had not practiced that before, but this is where that church
thing kept coming, where I hadgrown up, like when the choir
was singing behind the soloists,and so they played the first
chorus.
I, okay, I got a riff, I showedit to the other three trombone
players in the section and thenI harmonized it.

(55:05):
So saxophones were stillstruggling trumpets, they were
trying to figure that out.
I just went to my churchupbringing so and he let two or
three more choruses go by, hestopped the band.
And then I dropped a pencil orsomething on the floor.
I reached over to pick it up.
When I sat back up, the cats inthe section were pointing at me
and one said who came up withthat riff?

(55:27):
And they looked at me and hejust came up to me yeah.
So, and it was that meeting andhe knew Scotty Barnhart, who's
now now, who always wanted toplay with Count Basie, who's now
the musical director for theCount Basie Orchestra and he was
playing trumpet with us thereat Florida and him during that
time, and so he talked to Scotty.

(55:48):
After he left town he went todo a lecture, he played his
trumpet, and this is anotherthing about at least our HBCU at
that time that I didn'tappreciate.
They got the money to getFreddie Jackson to play the
halftime show, but they didn'tcome up with the money or the
budget for Wynton and his bandto play and everybody wanted to

(56:09):
hear him, Everybody wanted tohear him play.
So he did a lecture that nightand so I digress.
But after he left he calledScotty.
He said man, what's that drumon player's name?
But Scotty, he said man, what'sthat drum on the player's name?
He said Scotty told me this.
He said, oh, you talking aboutWycliffe.
He went and said oh, what thehell kind of name is Wycliffe?
And then, I told Scotty.
I said, well, what the hellkind of name is, because I never

(56:30):
heard that name before either.
But anyway, long story short,he called me and Scotty gave him
my number.
And Scotty gave him my number.
He said you practice shit.
Yeah, learn this.
Charlie Parker solo this andthat.
And, as a matter of fact, myfirst gig with him was in this
city, in Fort Worth.
It was a place here called theCaravan of Dreams and the
marker's right, where I wasworking at Pizza Hut.

(56:51):
And I learned that when you'rein college because I heard some
of y'all say something aboutwhat a burger when you're in
college you work at a restaurant, you're good, and if you close
you're real good because you cantake food home and not be
starving.
So I had pizza and ramennoodles from a good part of my
college living and I came hereand we played Caravan of Dreams

(57:12):
and they were working on musicfor their record, the Majesty of
the Blues, so they didn'treally play anything in the
sound check.
They brought me up and went andhad me playing some parts, so I
didn't really hear the banduntil that night, man, when they
started playing, I was sittingin the dressing room and I was
like man, if Florida A&M, ifTallahassee wasn't so far from

(57:33):
me, I would get up and walk outof here and leave, because the
level of music they were playingwas like.
So I was like, oh my goodness,and I knew what it was.
I said but you know, and thenhe would call me up and play a
blues or something like that andthat was cool.
But at the end of that week Iwas like between him, marcus
Roberts, they gave me records tobuy, two or three pages, two

(57:55):
columns on each side, front andback of records to buy.
So I started doing that and thenext time he called me it was
at Blues Alley that year and Istarted practicing.
I wasn't making a whole lot ofnoise, but he invited me to then
play on the record he was doingand he was going to ask JJ
Johnson to do it.
But he said do you want to playon this record?

Speaker 2 (58:15):
I was like yeah and that led to that I mean what's
going on through your mind?
I mean, did you realize how biga deal this was at the time?

Speaker 3 (58:24):
no, I know, I was just.
I was practicing, I wasn't eventhinking about, because I have
students ask me all the time howdo you, how do you make it?
I'm like I didn't do this, Ididn't do this to make it.
I mean, I mean, you want to.
You have those, I guess, thosedreams when you're younger I'm
being a popular man.
I want to.
You have those, I guess, thosedreams when you're younger, I
want to be in a popular band, Iwant to make a lot of money and
do this and that, but for me,playing jazz and or even

(58:46):
classical music, it was aboutplaying the music at the highest
level.
And when I got in that band youtalk about me being number nine
out of the nine tenortrombonists I was number nine in
the band.
I was the lowest on the totempole but everybody played
circles around me but I was onlytrombonist.
I'm just talking about in termsof the ability, so I had to go

(59:06):
back and deal with basics andget all of that stuff together.
I could hear it but I couldn'texecute, and this is why.
So you always go back.
You got to master the basics.
Before you can play classicaltrombones, sky trombone, jazz
trombone, you have to learn toplay the trombone.
So, and that's when I got achance playing with him, I met

(59:26):
Joe Alessi.
The first time I met greattrombonist in classical and jazz
and I was just like and I justkept getting at it.
I'm like man, these cats canplay.
And then he got to where hejust he would write anything.
And I was like, man, it's nottrombone, stuff like on four and
one, I mean Val trombone maybe.

(59:58):
But I'm like, well, he did itand it's just.
I can go back to that FloridaA&M thing.
That's an obstacle, cause theymove, you, slide that fast.
Get it, it can be done, you cando it.

Speaker 2 (01:00:09):
So I mean, first of all, what an education.
I mean what a, what aopportunity to absorb from some
of the greatest people ever.
And he obviously saw somethingin you maybe before you even saw
it, I would guess.
But like, was there any likeimposter syndrome at first, and
then some breakthrough momentwhere you're like, wow, I
deserve to be here, like I canhang.

Speaker 3 (01:00:30):
I don't know if I ever said I deserve to be here,
but I remember when I firststarted playing with him, I had
my girlfriend in high schoolschool and I was heartbroken
because things didn't work out.
And I was in the band and wentand asked me if I wanted to play
that summer.
Well, this is how it happened.
I did Caravan of Dreams inFebruary or March of that year,

(01:00:53):
in 1988, and then I did BluesAlley, december of 1989.
And then he said because ofBlues Alley, do you want to play
this recording?
That recording was in March, inApril, and that was 1989.
And then he said do you want to?
What are you doing this summer?
I said my scholarship doesn'tcover summer school, so I won't.
Yeah, we're gonna come out andplay for a little bit, and yeah.

(01:01:16):
So we went to New York.
I didn't have a passport.
Then we had to go down to Arubaand Eric Reed was filling in
for Marcus Roberts at the timeand wanted to.
It was my fourth year in college, his freshman year, and he said
he asked Wycliffe aboutcolleges and Wycliffe said I
only went to college for oneyear and I left and talked to
Wycliffe.
And I wasn't happy at that timeat college and went and then

(01:01:36):
asked me.
He said, oh, I thought thingswere going good for you.
I was like, well, his dad hadjust left VCU and went to UNO.
I said I'm thinking abouttransferring because I want to
go and study with someone whereI can.
I had fun at FAMU but I want togo where the jazz is.
And he said do you want to stayout here and play for a while?
And I thought about it for restof the year and it led into my

(01:02:02):
career as an educator, composer,arranging everything that I did
because being around that levelof musicians then I began to
get exposed to that level ofcomposers, arrangers, publishers
and I was like I saw the worldof music a different way and I
try to share that with all of mystudents because it's there,
it's in front of you, it's likeeverything you see here.

(01:02:24):
You got publishers, you havepeople to make horns.
I heard you say you got doingmouthpieces and I mean so
entrepreneurship, soeverything's there.
I was so glad that world openedup to me and I just tell people
I'm thankful daily that I'm amusician, all open up to me and
I just tell people I'm thankfuldaily that I'm a musician.
I do what I love to do.
People say you get tired,you're gonna retire.

Speaker 2 (01:02:43):
I said no, I said I'll stop playing when I can't
play anymore, but this I lovedoing it so we have a hard out
in about five minutes and so wealways close with a rapid fire
section.
So just a couple questions.
We ask every guest at the end,so I'll just throw a couple
quick ones.
We always start with whatadvice would you give to your 18

(01:03:03):
year old self?

Speaker 3 (01:03:06):
not to get married right away.
That's um funny.
My 18 year old self I mean my18 year old self I love to
practice and I see thatsometimes not in all students,
but it's in the world that welive in now, where we get
information really fast.
You need to know something.
It's on your phone when, whenwe were in school, you had to

(01:03:27):
either go to the library at yourschool or the library in town.
So how we process things.
But yeah, I would just say Iwould take my time and not
because I have family andchildren, but I would take my
time to do that.
Don't do that so fast.

Speaker 2 (01:03:44):
Okay, it's a tough question, but if you had to pick
one recording, what's therecording you're most proud of?

Speaker 3 (01:03:52):
My recordings Mm-hmm.
Hmm, I'd say the soundtrack towhat's called Within these Gates
of Mine yeah, within theseGates of Mine, and it's
difficult.
You can listen to the CD, butit's actually a soundtrack for a

(01:04:13):
silent movie.
It's the second one I did byOscar Michaud and it's a big
band playing live with therecording.
So if you can watch it with theimages, and it's a big band
playing live with the recording,so if you can watch it with the
images, it's that much morepowerful.
But I played on every kind ofmusic that I heard growing up.
It was gospel jazz, a littlebit of classical vocalist.
I used the band as much as Icould as an orchestra, but I'd

(01:04:36):
say that one Awesome.

Speaker 1 (01:04:38):
I've got one here.
What's one that you see currentstudents, what's something that
you see current students doingthat you'd like to see more of?

Speaker 3 (01:04:46):
What do I see them doing?

Speaker 1 (01:04:47):
Or not doing that.
You'd like to see more of.

Speaker 3 (01:04:50):
Well, current students I think about my
students, but then students thatwere at Juilliard are a little
different than students thatwere at Manhattan School or at
Augusta University.
But preparing and respectingthe process of developing, like
I said earlier, we getinformation fast.
And I remember a student when Iwas teaching at Michigan State.

(01:05:11):
He was majoring in physics, hewas a music major and something
else and engineering, and I'mlike there's three big majors.
I said man, and then he was atrombone student and he said I
like the melody and the tuningand the arborism.
But he said I want to play likeyou.
What's the shortcut?
I said the shortcut is thestraightest line between where
you stand in a practice room.
There is no shortcut.

(01:05:32):
You may be able to getinformation fast, you may be
able to access information fast,but your ability to develop you
still got to do that theold-fashioned way and that's the
best part of that.
So I wish I could see thestudents respect that part of
the process and theirdevelopment.

Speaker 2 (01:05:50):
Cool, it's deep, just two more.
Two more Dream dinner guests,but made up of only jazz
trombonists, living or dead.

Speaker 3 (01:06:00):
Jazz trombonists in my day.

Speaker 2 (01:06:03):
Alive or dead.
If you could sit down and havedinner with any jazz trombonist
ever.

Speaker 3 (01:06:08):
Well, all of them, I'll say this I mean, you know
JJ, but Jack Teagarden, who Ilove, I didn't get a chance to
meet him.
But you know Carl Fontana,frank Rosalino, curtis, fuller,
who I got a chance to meet.
I got a chance to meet JJ andtalk with him.
And, meeting JJ, I said I wasnot going to do what I heard
most trombone players do Ask himabout how he articulates this.

(01:06:31):
I'm not going to do it.
But we were in Switzerland,bern, switzerland.
Our hotel room weren't ready,so JJ and I went on a walk and
we're talking and I made it downthere and then, coming back,
I'm like JJ, how do you talk soclean?
How do you?
And he said, well, so Wycliffe,I just do it.
I said, damn it, he's not gonnatell you.

Speaker 2 (01:06:52):
He's not gonna tell anybody.

Speaker 3 (01:06:54):
So, but yeah, and just all the trombones.
I I play other instruments andI mean this when I say this.
I think the trombone has thewidest range of voices in jazz
and classical music, but I'vespent most of my time playing
jazz.
So when I started thinkingabout schools of jazz trombone,
the schools of jazz trombone,plunger players, trumpet players

(01:07:15):
and saxophone players they'remore popular, but the trombone
has the widest range of voices,so that and I've studied quite a
bit of the difference betweenAl Gray and Tricky, sam Natten
or Booty Wood or somebody likeTyree Glenn, who's a great
vibrator I mean theircontributions.
So at Louis Armstrong, I woulddefinitely have to have.

Speaker 2 (01:07:35):
We'll let him come to the trombone dinner.
Okay, and in closing, is thereanything that we haven't talked
about that you'd like to say?

Speaker 3 (01:07:44):
Yeah, probably, but I have no idea what that is.
I don't know.

Speaker 2 (01:07:48):
I mean, I feel like I could talk to you for hours.
There's so much there's so manythings I would love to cover,
but at this festival we have atighter window.
We have other things to do.
We have a tighter window, wehave other things to do man, I
just want to thank you so muchfor, first of all, sitting down
with us and for yourcontributions to the trombone
world and the contributions tothe art world and the

(01:08:08):
contributions you continue tomake and will make, and we can't
wait to hear you perform.
That's tomorrow night.
Better practice, betterpractice, yeah, but thank you so
much for being here.

Speaker 3 (01:08:21):
Let's hear it for Wycliffe Gordon.

Speaker 1 (01:08:24):
Thank you guys.

Speaker 3 (01:08:25):
Appreciate you, Joe.
See you guys around.
Thank you.