Obscura - Interview with the Creator - The True Crime Pod Presents

Episode Transcript
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(00:01):
Obscura. Justin is typically more straightforwardand leaning towards like the compassionate side,
towards the listener black label. Justinis like, Hey, you're going to
go with me on this ride ifyou choose to do so, and the

(00:21):
intro music is sort of like akick in the face. This is Tz,
the host of Tapes from the DarkSide, and I'm so excited to
share with you this interview with JustinDrown of Obscura. We're going to be
talking about his episode titled Caitlin NicoleDavis, which he's allowed us to post

(00:44):
in our feed for you. Justcheck out our feed, it's one episode
back. If you have a questionfor our next week's guest, which will
be Kristin Sevee from Murder She Told. We're on Twitter at the True Crime
Instagram, at the True Crime Podfollow us and look for the post about

(01:04):
Kristin Seebee's interview and if you haveany questions for her, her podcast is
called Murder She Told and we'll beinterviewing her next so keep an eye out.
One last note before we get intothe interview, stick around till after
the interview is over for a littlebit of pre interview chat. We both

(01:25):
hit record before the interview started,and he's allowed me to share some of
that conversation with you. So stickaround till after the end music and catch
a little bit of our private chat. And now, without further ado,
here is my interview with Justin Drownof Obscura Truecrime Podcast. Welcome to the

(01:49):
True Crime Pod Presents podcast. Ourspecial guest today is Justin Drown of the
Obscura Podcast. I'm super excited tohave Justin on. I've been a big
fan of Obscure for a while andI really appreciate just since kind of unique,
raw approach to true crime. Thankyou so much for being with us

(02:13):
today, Justin, Hey, thankyou for having me. The episode that
you chose for us to present inour feed was Caitlin Nicole Davis and I
believe was this a black label episodeto begin with? Yes, this this
was a black label episode to beginwith. And maybe if anybody's new too

(02:37):
Obscure, can you explain a littlebit about what a black label episode is
and like how you came up withthat idea and maybe maybe a little bit
how it's evolved over the years aswell. Yeah, so black label was
sort of an accident. It's yougot to keep in mind too. Back

(03:00):
Night first started, this is likegoing on like seven years ago, there
really weren't that many true crime podcasts, especially especially compared to now, Like
you were talking about like one percentcompared to now. And so I had
been creating podcast episodes for a whileand there was a couple that got me

(03:21):
in hot water due to some ofthe more graphic nature. And it was
finally this episode I did on thisguy named Nick Stoutzenberger or Nick Bait,
where people were emailing me and theywere like, I had to pull the
car over because I was getting sick, and you know, stuff like that.
And somebody had written a blog postthat I can't find anymore. But

(03:45):
yeah, they had written a blogpost. They were very angry, and
and I what year did that onecome out? In Nick episode? You
know, I'm not sure off thetop of my head, I want to
say twenty eighteen ish something something aroundthere. And so I thought to myself,
well, you know, I haven'tstarted like a Patreon yet, at

(04:11):
least I don't. I don't thinkI had at the time. And uh,
I was like, well, whatI can do is I could create
like a sort of paywall where ifhey, if you want to hear this
stuff that's like the darker stuff ofthe month that I work on, there
you go. You know, youpay to get in. There's no excuses,

(04:33):
there's no getting angry, etc.And what's funny is, uh,
there had been a few cases thatI end up hitting right away that like
I had thought about covering for along time, but then I'm like,
how am I going to put thison iTunes? You know, like,
am I gonna get in trouble?Am I gonna get the podcast taken down?

(04:53):
Or something? So right away itwas it was pretty freeing to just
be able to cover the content wantedto cover. And uh, yeah,
that that's sort of what sets usup into covering this episode. I want
to ask you a little bit aboutthe crackling of the fire. I love

(05:14):
that intro. It just it's sosimple and it just kind of brings it
pulls you right into the atmosphere.Um, did you kind of have that
idea from from like the very beginningor how did that how did how does
your use of like you don't reallyuse many sound effects, UM use some

(05:35):
music, light light music, butcan you talk a little bit about the
fire. Yeah, so right awaywhen I started the show, I didn't
I had read a book called PurpleCowl Marketing and you know, just being
transparent, And one of the thingsthey talked about is to distinguish your styf

(05:57):
right, and then you'll already havesomeone of like an advantage because no one
can get you know, what youare creating from anywhere else other than you.
And so right away I was like, well, what can I do?
Like? What am I What aresome things that I like? You
know, what are what are somethings that I like? I was into
when I was younger and growing up. I always really liked Are You Afraid

(06:20):
of the Dark? Right? AndI liked, you know, there were
a lot of corny episodes that honestly, like I probably wouldn't have even been
that into if it wasn't for thelittle fireside stuff that was like the window
dressing for the show, right.And so when choosing the campfire kind of

(06:42):
motif, and honestly earlier I leanedinto it a bit heavier than I do
now. The idea was to sortof like kind of create this like intimate
environment where the ideas that you're sittingaround the fire with me, and I'm
just telling you, I'm like,you're crazy on cool telling you true crime
stories you shouldn't be hearing kind ofthing. I love that. That's awesome.

(07:09):
I was just trying to I wasabout to google it, but I
might make a fool of myself.Was it Winston Churchill? He used to
do the fireside chats exactly. Yes, I'm also really big into a World
War two history and that is agood observation. You're the first person that's
ever brought that up. Yeah,because you do that on your Patreon now

(07:30):
too. You kind of have likelittle intimate just like takes or yeah,
do you do like hot takes onstuff? So yeah, I'll do hot
takes, I'll do story personal stories, and then I'll also talk about things
that I'm into. I did oneon Cormac McCarthy recently, but also like

(07:51):
I'll tell stories about my life.And yeah, recently people have been kind
of into the hot takes thing,and I feel like the atmosphere around hot
takes have gotten it's gotten a littleless oppressive. So I'm more comfortable,
you know, sort of talking aboutit now. Um, and there's that

(08:11):
quote from Colora mc McCarthy. Ithink you told me to keep the keep
a little fire burning. Yes,that was that the inspiration for the obscure
quote. Yeah, yeah, absolutely, it's a it's a little altered you
know, but I forgot there's athere's a quote about how the best ideas

(08:33):
are stolen, right, and sothere's definitely an amalgamations of influence going on.
Yeah, but you you make ityour own thing, which is what
I think great shows do they takethe inspiration, Like you said, pretty
much everything stolen, so like standingon the backs of what's the quote,
stand on the backs of giants orsomething like that. Um, and man,

(08:58):
there's a lot of kind of ananalogies too. Oh man, there's
so much you just brought up.I want to talk about them. The
burning theme we get into Kaitlin NicoleDavis in one of her hobbies you list
her hobbies. It was the linethat made me laugh out loud. And
then one of her last hot orI don't know, I don't remember how

(09:20):
exactly how you phrased it, butshe was into certain things. And then
you also said like burning things orlike, um, you know, what's
what's the word for that? Pirosomething you have a few lines in this
episode, like that was one ofthem. It was very raw, and
I just felt, like you said, like I felt like my uncle was
just telling me a story. Thewhole episode had a very nice scripted feel,

(09:43):
but there were moments that brought meback into the rawness. Let me
ask you about that first, wasthat when you write a script, do
you kind of go off the cuffssometimes when you're recording, or do you
stick to it or how loose isyour writing process or how tight is it?
Like as far as writing, itreally is sort of a script by

(10:05):
script nature. And sometimes though whenI'm recording, if like I feel like
I have something to say, butyou know, as I'm reading the script,
you know, going line by line, like I look at it and
I'm like, that's not really goingto cut it. I'll kind of just
like go off the cuff and sortof let my ideas, you know,

(10:30):
take media to where I want tobe. And that definitely happened in the
Caitlyn Nicole Davis episode. There's adifference between writing the script and then reading
the script. A lot of times, when I'm actually reading the script,
it's more apparent how my words arecoming across and whether or not I've gotten
the point across that I've wanted toget across, you know. And so

(10:52):
in the Caitlyn Nicole Davis episode,there's definitely a few parts where I kind
of went off the cuff because Ifelt like everything that happened in the episode
was so awful that like sort oflike just cold sterile words weren't really enough
to like it didn't do the storyjustice. And so yeah, it's one

(11:15):
of the few episodes where I've kindof just you know, went off the
cuff and off script a bit.Yeah, I mean I was I was
actually getting angry, like I wasas I was like reading the script.
You know. It was, like, like I said, so, like
a lot of times when you knowyou're researching, you you almost go into
like a researcher mode, you know, and when you're writing as well,

(11:39):
and so reading it all out loudand like in just like one congealed story,
like as I'm sitting there reading,I'm just like getting like angry and
upset like the entire time. AndI think that it's like one of the
only episodes where there's actually a bitof a rant at the end of the
episode. Yeah, I really likethat though, and you kind of did.

(12:01):
I wouldn't call it a rant atthe beginning, but you you kind
of explained that listening through the recordedmoments of Caitlin's live stream, you kind
of felt like she told the storyso well. You were going to dial
back how much you were commenting onit. Can you tell me a little
bit about maybe the research process.Yeah, So there was a time where

(12:26):
I would work with a researcher.Her name was Haley Gray. But what
happened and this definitely was one ofthe episodes that kind of nailed that home
for me is that, like,I can just get obsessed and so really
what it was is that the researcherwas watching all these videos and then I

(12:50):
was also just watching all of thesevideos, and so it was pretty redundant,
but it did help in the factthat she was able to see things
from a certain angle in certain momentsthat maybe I wouldn't have seen nor included.
And so it did, you know, And that's one of the reasons
why I brought it up in theepisode. It did add like a perspective

(13:13):
where there were moments in her livestreams that was important from her perspective,
and then there were moments from mineand I think that what that allowed me
to do is kind of yeah,like use and I don't frequently use like
um, when there's like a lotof live stream stuff, like I'll provide
a lot more narration, but likein this case, like they were,

(13:35):
she so perfectly like Kaitlin Nicole Davis, like so perfectly like provided her own
narrative throughout her various streams. LikeI think she really used these streams like
as a way to well at leastattempt to cope with the things going on
in her life. I want togo back to the sound effects because I

(14:01):
forgot to ask with the fire crackling, there's that heavy metal guitar that comes
in, can you tell us whereyou got that sound from? And that
I'm guessing that kind of ties intothe The Purple Cow. Aspiring true crime
podcasters check that book out. TheIs it just called The Purple Cow?
I think I think, yeah,I think it is just called The Purple

(14:24):
Cow. Yeah. No, Justinrecommended that to me and I got in
read it and a lot of goodstuff. So there's a band that I
like, I think there's genre iscalled sludge metal, and I knew that
they were also true crime fans,so I figured I would just reach out
and asked them. I was like, they're called the Body, and I

(14:46):
was like, hey, you know, I know you guys are true crime
fans, and I was curious howmuch you would charge me if I could
use some of your musics for,you know, my intro. And they
were so cool. They were like, you could use any song you want
and you don't got to pay athing, right, which was just like,
oh okay, Like that's awesome,you know. And what's interesting is

(15:07):
that the first version of the song, and I've used it a couple times,
just like snuck it in there,the very first one was actually a
lot more aggressive than the one.That's the guitar that's used for Black Label
and normal episodes. They're a bitmore screaming things like that. But the
purpose though, of choosing sludge metalover like the more traditional style like Obscure

(15:33):
episodes is it goes back to thefact that Black Label was meant to be
more of like a gateway right,whereas like Obscure Justin is typically more straightforward
and leaning towards like the compassionate sidetowards the listener black label, Justin is

(15:56):
like, hey, you're going togo with me on this ride if you
choose to do so, And theintro music is sort of like a kick
in the face, like just aquick reminder, like you know this is
what you're getting into, right,So I figured if I had just put
traditional true crime style music right,it wouldn't be honest, and so this

(16:19):
was my way of avoiding dishonesty.It kind of reminds me like if you
buy a ticket to a gg Allenshow, you gotta be prepared, like
you gotta know what you're getting into. I like that. That actually explains
a question I had for you too. I think you said, you know

(16:40):
he's attracted this twelve year old,so he's basically a pedophile. If you
have the thought that you want tocorrect me and say that's an affeba file
or I think that's the word,you're like, you can go ahead and
unsubscribe. That's another That's another momentwhere I laughed out loud where it was
like, I just I appreciated thatrawness and that makes so much sense.

(17:02):
How I never thought of that asyour main episodes. I mean, I
knew it was more intense black label, but it's kind of like, you
know, I'm I'm just telling youa story, man, you better buckle
up and be ready for something intense. When we were Facebook messaging, you
said, this is the first episodethat made you experience what you refer to
as the toll. Can you tellme about that? When I started true

(17:29):
crime podcasting, one of my influencesis I don't know if you've heard of
them? Do you know? Doyou know who Peter Sotos is? I
don't. Peter Sodos is in alot of ways, like one of the
earlier, earliest true crime guys,he was very misunderstood. He actually got
arrested, you know, back inthe eighties over it, and he kind

(17:56):
of borders a line between art andtrue crime, and while they were when
he was creating some of his firstOff, let me just say though,
if anyone's listening to this, knowthat, like Peter Sodos's stuff is like
the darkest and like worst of theworst if you go to track it down.
But yeah, he was arrested forchild abuse images. There's really no

(18:18):
way around it. Right when hewas investigating some of these cases and they
couldn't understand why he would be puttinglike the stuff together kind of thing,
right, And so when I wascreating Black Label, I figured like,
well, this is my chance tokind of continue that Peter Sodos you know
tradition, right of just like therawst, the darkest, etc. And

(18:45):
Black Label is the first content whereI got this idea of something that I
refer to as the toll, rightAnd and I think like a lot of
true crime creators can experience this aswell, especially like when they get obsessed
in the content they create. Andthe toll for me is the idea that,

(19:10):
well, you have this idea alot of the times that this stuff
isn't going to affect your life,your emotions, your investment, like you
can just punch out and then justgo on with the rest of your day,
right Well, Caitlin Nicole Davis,right, you know, I mean
I saw like hundreds of hours ofher live streams, right, Like,

(19:32):
I really felt like, I thinkthat there's a lot less of them online
now, Like I think they've slowlybeen removed. You know, maybe live
dot Me's like archived stuff isn't asgood. But I really felt like I
got to know this person, likegenuinely, like I've probably spent more time
watching her live streams, you know, then you know, I've spent less

(19:57):
time with some of my best friendsin the past five years, you know.
And so the idea that like,you know, I can do this
episode that leads up to her likeultimate conclusion and then just walk away and
go like have ice cream with thefamily or something. This was like the
first episode that made me realize thatthere is a toll, right And this

(20:22):
was the last Black Label episode Iactually wrote for like a small period of
time. It was like the Ihired a couple of writers and they took
over for a little bit before Ireturned back to it. Because you know,
there's really no other way to putit. I think I was experiencing
a form of PTSD. Like Iwould go to bed at night and I

(20:44):
would close my eyes, and youknow, I'd see Caitlyn Nicole Davis in
our last moments before I fell asleepat night, you know, and I
kind of realized that, you know, and I know this is a weird
way to put it that in away, I was grieving, like I
was like literally grieving the loss.And I think that's like the first time

(21:08):
I've experienced that with true crime,because I think a lot of us when
we consume it, there's like aseparation between us the TV, our headphones,
etc. And I think true crimecreators more than most right, they
have more of an opportunity, atthe very least, to experience the toll.

(21:30):
Yeah, that makes sense because ifyou're listening to an episode, even
if you're binging something, say youbinge twenty black labels in a row.
I mean, that's that's probably goingto message your head. I don't recommend
anybody to do that, but you'renot going to listen to one episode or

(21:51):
most people, i'd say ninety ninepoint nine percent, probably the vast majority,
are not going to listen to GalenNicole's Davis episode and then go watch
one hundred hours of live footage likeyou went through. So that that makes
a lot of sense. Is there? You know I've experienced this. Can
you like hear her voice sometimes orlike hear certain phrases? Yeah, there's

(22:15):
that moment I include towards the endof the episode, which is like maybe
a bit more empathetic than your usualend of like a black label episode.
But when she's sort of like revealinglike herself and her like just like what
a decent person she was, youknow, and like already such a kind

(22:37):
and mature person for her age.Those sort of like last like that sort
of last moment in the show.That's the thing that sort of all in
the episode. That's the sort ofthing that like always stuck with me.
And that's kind of like why Iincluded it. And I didn't want the
last moment to be her dying.Basically that was such a surreal moment too,

(22:59):
when the bucket kicks out, Well, just first that sound was like
made my heart stop, and I'velike I've also watched a lot of true
crime, and and then you introducedit really well. I'm glad you did
too, because I would have beenwondering what the hell that noise was.
But then the cell phone starts ringingand then you hear the family calling out

(23:22):
for her. Just such a freakingsurreal moments. Surreal is the word,
you know, like the cell phonecombined with everything else, right, It's
it's haunting, you know, it'ssurreal. It's haunting. It's it's one
of those things where as you're listeningor watching it. It's really like hard

(23:47):
for it to fully sink in becausethere's just a strange atmosphere around the whole
thing. Now, I don't wantto come off as ignorant, I might
hear, but obviously she was thevictim of child abuse stepfather. Her father
wasn't there, her mother was hermother one of the people calling out for

(24:08):
her, and it seemed like maybeher mother was more there for her than
other people in her life or amI am I misremembering so in in in
theory, her mother was at leastkind of cared, but um, there
there's a few moments in the episodeI include of her fighting with her mom

(24:29):
and basically saying, like, youknow, he's abusing me, and she
just doesn't She's like, well whereelse am I going to go? Kind
of thing. And so I mean, as as far as where I stand,
like she really her mother failed toprotect her daughter, Like that's just
you know, and I understand,right, I do understand that people in

(24:52):
abusive situations, right, Like,again, you know, I don't want
to pear ignorant, but at thesame time, I mean, when your
daughter is telling you to your facelike this is happening to me, right,
you can't be surprised by the consequences. Yeah, yeah, that makes
total sense. And that's that actuallyhad slip my memory. So I'm glad
you you mentioned that. Okay,I've got all these listener questions, but

(25:17):
I also, man, this wouldjust be such a good chance for at
least a short discussion about philosophy ofcrime. I guess when you get into
the toll, how do you bounce? This is something I'm really struggling with,
and this is podcast isn't about me, it's about you. But I
also just want to bring this inbecause I think you would have an interesting

(25:38):
perspective on it. Is the thisidea that okay, well we see it
with sexual abuse, maybe most notoriously, where almost not all sexual people who
are sexual abuse go on to abuse, but almost every sexual abuse user was

(26:00):
abused. And I wonder this withlike violent crimes that most of them have
experienced fucked up past, not allof them, some are just born psychopaths.
How do you balance this, likehow do you not lose your soul
in your heart of like some kindof compassion for people and humanity, and

(26:22):
like do you ever because you bringa real ferociousness that I respect to victim
advocacy, how do you balance thatwith so many perpetrators being victims in the
past two or just anything you wantto say kind of relating to that idea.

(26:45):
Yeah, you know, and I'vetalked about this a little bit and
some of my fireside chats and ina few episodes, But I myself was
the victim of child sexual abuse,and so is my brother who basically isn't
with us anymore because of it.And so as far as I do think

(27:11):
sometimes, you know, you gotto have perspective based on like, you
know, a lot of these likekillers and abusers, like their backgrounds.
But at the same time, right, like we all live, you know,
in this sort of agreed upon youknow, fiction of being civilized,

(27:37):
and there are lines that we drawin the sand in which we say this
is okay and that's not okay,right, and then if you cross those
certain lines, then you know,you get your you know, people turning
their back on you. You know, it's as simple as that. And
for me, one of the distinctionsthat I tried to have in my show

(28:00):
because I felt that there was alot of true crime and there still is
sort of hero worship that goes around, and so one of the things I've
really tried to promote is kind ofmaking these people look like losers, you
know. And so yeah, Ican go a little hard on it,

(28:21):
you know, between the victim advocacyand kind of trashing these guys and really
driving home you know, like howlike how awful they are. But I
feel like that's sort of a balanceto what you often get right like,
you know, and by the way, I'm not even particularly judging it.
I'm happy to be the balance.But there are a lot of shows and

(28:45):
stuff you see where they sort ofon the slide, pretend they're not doing
it, but they are creating antiheroes. You know, there's really it
kind of reminds me of um,They'll be like memes about like you didn't
get the Points starter pack and it'llbe like Brad Pitt and the Joker and

(29:07):
stuff like that, and well,there's an element to that's true, like
you didn't get the point. Also, the producers and directors were sort of
we're all ignoring the fact that theyalso did try to intentionally make these guys
kind of cool, you know,like they have something to market. And
so I feel like that's sort ofwhat happens with true crime very frequently is

(29:30):
that these guys get marketed. Youknow, they're sort of the selling point.
And so sometimes what I'll do isI'll cover I'll cover a case.
Like people recently they were asking mewhere my Stephen McDaniel's case episode is,
Like it was a pretty famous caseand the reason why they were struggling to
find it is because I named it, you know, the murder of Lauren

(29:53):
Giddings, right, Like, Ididn't name it after him. I named
it after you know, his victim, right, And uh, yeah,
It's something I try to stay consciousof because personally, just you know,
in terms of like my principles,like I never want to celebrate these guys.
That makes sense. It's a reallygood explanation for all that. Have

(30:15):
you felt like the toll and justcovering true crime in general has made you
more misanthropic or or distasteful of humansor or maybe the opposite. Have you
noticed or maybe nothing? Have younoticed that at all? Yeah? I
know it has. It has um. The thing that I've also been covering

(30:37):
a lot more of recently is childsex rings. You know, there's really
no pleasant way to put it.And and also just cultures that allow for
it. Um. I recently havebeen touching on the science fiction writers of
America and their history, sort ofcovering for these guys. You know,

(31:00):
I'm I'm you know, I don'twant to get into politics, but I'm
a left leaning guy right in general. Um And uh when I posted on
Twitter, uh, like I waslooking, I was, I was like
going to cover this case. Youknow, I was thinking about it,
right, they started coming after meand calling me like, all right,

(31:22):
it was very strange. And uh, as I researched more and more into
it, I realized, like,a how many guys that were like deeply,
deeply rooted in these like sort ofchild sex cults. And again,
I know, I'm I'm sounding likeconspiratorial, but it's real, Like it's
genuinely real. And uh, youknow, be the fact that these guys

(31:49):
haven't been like stripped of their awards, it's not on their wikipedias, you
know, like it's just been sortof washed from their history all because they
were on a certain side of thepolitical fence. Is the way that I
would put it. There's really noother way. And yeah, so it's
I've kind of gotten to a pointwhere I do feel a little bitter towards

(32:12):
like how humanity handles these things.I think what it is too, though,
is that with the Jeffrey Epstein stuffthat came out and then just uh,
there's the British ones. There therewas that famous will semi famous UK
child sex ring, the rat Like, there's an intense amount of human trafficking

(32:38):
every year. I think for peopleto go about their day to day right
like, they can't think about thisstuff, and so a lot of it
is just sort of written offhand asconspiracy and you kind of look like you
have a tinfoil had on, butit's really not. And once you come

(32:58):
to terms with the fact that stuffis more common than you realize, it
can be a tough pilled to swallow. Yeah, I mean it's a conspiracy
until you find out that it's true. I mean Epstein Cosby Matt Lower.
I mean, we've just seen guyafter guy do what's the British one?

(33:20):
You know, the kids show guyhad like a hundred victims or something.
Oh god, oh, I knowwho you're talking about. I can't remember
his name. But when you weretalking about the political divide, the guy
who came up in my mind rightaway was Roman Polanski who so many left
hard left leaning actors and actresses signedthe petition to you know, just forget

(33:46):
about it. It's in the past. I think it was over a hundred
people, Woody Allen, Scorsese,Ornovsky, David Lynch, Wes Anderson,
Harrison Ford, every every one ofyour favorite stars and my favorite stars signed
this fucking petition. Uh, youknow. And it's like you can be

(34:08):
you can be a Democrat or aRepublican and still be a pedophile defender,
uh an enabler unfortunately. Yeah,and so it's caused me to sort of
have to compartmentalize when I like enjoycontent because it seems like everyone that's involved
in like the movie industry, atleast to some degree have has their hands

(34:30):
dirty, you know, even ifit's just to a small degree. Maybe
not Brendan Frasier, but he paidfor that. Oh yeah what uh what
was the controversy with him? Hecalled it out at an award show and
that was his blacklisting period. Mand he didn't really resurface up until recently

(34:52):
with like the Whale and so like, yeah, I really ruined his career
and um, oh so Terry Crewswas you know, the story with him
and he got propositioned or something likethat on the street by one of the
executives. Yeah. Yeah. Ohand then of course just the um the

(35:15):
producer Weinstein. I mean that waslike he had his tentacles in every fucking
production house and yeah, and youknow, um, this this, this
is just a little off subject asfar as that goes. And you know
what's interesting though, is, uh, as far as Weinstein goes, is

(35:38):
I feel like twenty years ago,had he been called out on that,
they would have been all signing becauseyou know, petitions for him to stick
around, you know, oh definitely. I mean that's kind of the the
duality of cancel culture is, like, I do think there's a negative side
to cancel culture. I mean you'veyou've kind of experienced it sounds like or

(36:00):
not not really, but Black Labelhad an intense backlash. But on the
other side, it's like, forso long, all these voices were immediately
ignored. You were just called,like you said, a conspiracy theorist,
or you're trying to get money ortrying to get famous. And now yeah,

(36:22):
I mean we're seeing that not justpeople, we don't like, but
so many of our beloved God.The one that still gets to me is
the Seventh heaven Father. That oneis really bizarre. Yeah, because I
used to watch that show growing up. I mean Bill Cosby. I loved

(36:43):
Bill Cosby growing up. And it'sjust like, Jesus Christ, are there
no fucking we're all my idols childmolesters? You know there's that moment where
you're like, Jesus Christ. Howone of the rough ones for me is
in my teenage years, I usedto watch Jeepers Creepers on repeat, and
I don't know if you know,but that director, yeah he uh.

(37:08):
He was also the director of Powder. Have you ever seen the Disney movie
years ago? I believe so thatmovie hits a little different once you realize
that it's kind of like a pedophileapologist movie. Wow. So Disney hired
him after he was released for jailfrom prison for abusing like a nine year

(37:30):
old, and so Powder is meantto be like a self insert of how
he was like bullied for like hissexuality and everything. It's pretty rough,
yeah, Jesus Christ. Yeah,it looks like he Jeepers Creepers three in
twenty seventeen, he was still makingfilms, so I'm sure that wasn't like

(37:50):
a big cash cow, but that'she got producers and you know, had
six million dollars to make it.That's kind of sad. Yeah, I
think like Francis Ford Coppola or somethingthat like U said, like leave Him
Alone or something like that. Yeah, but I grew up watching that movie
and so like to find out,like, yeah, that one was pretty

(38:12):
rough as well. I saw me. I saw a meme that was like,
uh, you know, when DavidBowie saw all the sex abuse allegations,
that's when he decided to just die. Yeah, and he's, uh,
yeah he was. I grew upwatching Labyrinth and idolizing Bowie, and
I know he hasn't ever faced thekind of reckoning, but it sounds like

(38:36):
he was into some of that stuffas well. Unfortunately. Yeah, that's
a rough one as well, becauseyou know, I genuinely think he's one
of the greatest artists that ever livedand lived and then to find that out
like yeah, yeah, all right, um let us trying. I'm trying

(38:58):
to just think if there's anything Iwanted to as ask you about Caitlin Nicole
Davis. We went through so muchof that's that episode. I just want
to make one last comment and youfeel free to tag onto about that episode.
I feel like great art kind ofis elevated to this level, at

(39:20):
least the way I experience it islike it will really get my gears turning
in my head and like all comeout. I experienced this when I go
to the theater and like I'm ina dark room for two to three hours
and watch like what I appreciate asa good film, and it will kick
up so many ideas and I justfeel like I feel like I feel like

(39:44):
reinvigorated mentally, emotionally like charged up, and I get I really got that
watch Listening to this episode, itwas like WHOA, Like this is a
This felt like a level above theway you hooked us in with kind of
being very honest about you know editinghow you went through and took out some

(40:05):
stuff. And then the ending feltvery raw, It felt very it felt
very appropriate to not do that tous and leave us with the death,
like to actually give us a rayof hope at the end. So I
just wanted to say, like Ireally appreciated the the this episode. Oh
Hey, man, I appreciate itbecause whenever people ask me, like,

(40:30):
you know, I get the question, like what's the episode that affected me
the most? That's the answer,Like I always give, like every single
time, you know, like thesingle episode that has stayed with me the
most, Like will probably always bethat episode. So, um, I
wanted to ask you, Okay,before we get into questions, I had

(40:52):
one personal question. So we hadwhat is your first review on your Apple
podcasts? And I know there's likea whole Apple podcast review controversy that you
were in and you feel free tocomment on that, but you don't have
to. But this review was fromtwenty nineteen. It said, is it

(41:15):
me? I love this podcast,but I have a nagging feeling it's Jack
Luna from Dark Topic but without therambling? Can you have a voice doppelganger?
Crazy, ironic and familiar but verygood. I love Jack, so
it's easy to enjoy this podcast.I thought that was kind of interesting because
I didn't I don't think you soundtoo much like Jack Luna. I mean,

(41:37):
there's definitely similarities, but that thatI really enjoy Dark Topics. So
I was wondering, have you everhad interaction with Jack Luna or anything like
that. Yeah, yeah, no, Jack, Jack's a cool guy.
Um and uh, I've always Iactually reached out to them one time.

(42:00):
Like, I'll be honest, Ihaven't heard too much of his podcast.
I did after people had mentioned hima few times in reviews. I did
go and listen to one. Ireally did enjoy. He talked about his
son at the end. It wasvery moving. But I've talked to Jack
on and off throughout the years.My wife is a big fan of his
work. Actually, And to behonest with you, I try to avoid

(42:25):
listening to other people's podcasts just becauseI try to. I don't want like
influence like seeping in from like otherpodcasters. Like I'll allow from like movies
and books and you know whatever,but I don't want to be someone else's
podcast, you know, like andso like every now and again, i'll

(42:45):
check something out, like I reallyliked Hunting Warhead. I thought that was
amazing. But with Jack, Yeah, no, he's a great dude.
As far as the voices go,I guess I can see some similarities,
but like, I don't know,he sounds very Canadian to me, you
know, like and then like he'sfrom Canada. You know, he's from

(43:07):
Canada. What I will say islike when I narrate, it's a it's
different from like my normal voice,you know, like to some degree,
there's a heightened like you know,like I said, I want that like
crazy uncle effect. You know.So maybe there's like people are picking up

(43:28):
between like that, like um asfar as that goes. But honestly,
like you know, if they're goingto compare me to someone that's not like,
that's not a bad comparison. Ilike Jack. He's a cool guy.
He's a very honest guy, whichI think is like, so that's
probably the thing I respect most andlike artists and creators as honesty, and

(43:50):
so yeah, you know, it'snot the worst guy to be compared to,
to be honest. Okay, wegot this question. We got some
from Twitter, which Queen of Juanseventy eight said, as a Belgian,
I'm curious to know how and whenhe learned about true. I hope I'm
saying this right. Detro Mark MarkPaul Elaine de trou I think Tue oh

(44:16):
true, Okay, I think youand the research he put into it,
So just curious when you learned aboutto true and the research she put into
it. So, uh, thethese uh the Mark to True scripts are
kind of older at this point.This is back when I was working with
my with you know, were JemmaHarris. Jemma Harris, she absolutely killed

(44:40):
it with these scripts. Uh.Definitely the best writer I personally have ever
worked with. Um. She's phenomenaland UM, Like, I'll be honest,
I would like this. This subjectis like Rice. So when I
worked with Jemma, she knew thekind of subjects I like to cover,

(45:00):
the type of topics, and sothis was like right where, you know,
the kind of stuff you know,I wanted Obscure to cover. I
wouldn't have known about the Mark theTrue case, which is kind of crazy
because it's such a wild case.I wouldn't have known about this case had
it not been for Gemma. Andyeah, so no, I greatly appreciate

(45:22):
that. And the thirty scripts orwhatever they had been sitting on the back
burner for a little bit, notbecause they weren't great or anything, but
because I try to keep things prettyvaried based on what I'm covering, and
so if there's some similarities between likeeven like small ones, sometimes I'll just

(45:46):
space stuff out, you know,give certain subjects time to breathe before I
go back to them. We havethis one from She's a hell Cat on
Twitter. Can you ask him?But he feels the parallels and differences are
besides the obvious between true crime afficionadosand the people who go on to commit

(46:07):
the crimes discussed. Also, whatdoes he feel as the catalyst that turns
some people from observers to perpetrators.Yeah, you know, like, um,
considering my childhood, you know somethingsomething could have definitely went wrong,
right, Um. And as faras like the separation between um observers and

(46:31):
you know, the perpetrators, sometimesthere's none. Um Man, I know
the name of the podcast. There'sa podcaster, you know, a podcast
I really respect as well. Butum, one of the cases they were
following, uh you know and updatingbecause it was it was a it was

(46:51):
like a cold case or something.Um, it turned out that the killer
was subscribed to their Patreon and toget up it's on the case as they
happened. And you know, that'sjust an example that sometimes there really there
isn't a separation, you know.So it's I can't fully answer that question

(47:13):
on what's like that thin, youknow, tissue between the two, because
I mean, you know, notevery perpetrator is a true crime fan,
but hey, some of them are. Dana Simon on Twitter says, what
does he do to decompress or balanceout reading and writing so much evil?

(47:37):
How does he not get sucked intothe abyss? Kind of goes back to
what we're talking about with the toll, But did you say there as far
as decompression goes, I have adepression and anxiety. So part of depression,
for people that aren't aware, isthat it can be hard to maintain

(47:59):
interest, right, Like you oneday you're like you're enjoying it, You're
enjoying enjoying it, and then oneday you want nothing to do do with
it for like weeks. Right.So what I try to do is I
sort of have like a rotation ofhobbies. Um, I'm into reading,
I'm into watching movies, you know, I'm into music. You know,
like we have lakes near where welive. I you know, I enjoy

(48:22):
nature as well. Recently, andthis is a I guess a weird one.
I've been going back and I've beenwatching old nineteen nineties wrestling from when
I was like a kid right beforebed, like I'll just watch old episodes
of it. But yeah, Ijust I try to keep you know,

(48:43):
just just a good strong mixture ofdifferent hobbies and uh, when I'm not
working on true crime, like tobe honest with you, like as a
hobby, true crime is mostly deadfor me, where it used to be
something that I would you know,before and stuff I'd be reading all about
freaking myself out about it and stufflike that. But now, barring that

(49:06):
recent I did watch that Dahmer Netflixshow with my wife because she wanted to
watch it, and it was reallygood, like they were very respectful to
the victims and everything. But yeah, mostly true crime is dead to me
as a as a viewer. Wasthat the oh shoot, I forget the

(49:27):
name of the actor. Was thatthe one with the American Horror Story actor?
Yes, yes, it's definitely oneof the best pieces of true crime
media I've ever seen. And ifyou want like another suggestion though for years
before all this new stuff started comingout, which, by the way,
that's another reason why I created Obscurais a lot of the TV shows and

(49:49):
stuff had went off air, likepeople don't remember, like Forensic Files was
like off the air except for rerunsfor years, you know. But so
there's a movie that I like tosuggest to people. Now, it's not
accurate, but what I like isthat they actually they don't pretty everything up,
you know what I mean, Likethis isn't like Silence of the Lamb's

(50:10):
like hand, you know, likesmooth Hannibal. Check out the movie Henry
Portrait of a Serial Killer if youhaven't seen it. That's an excellent That's
an excellent movie. Dahmer. Iwatched that as well. Evan Peters,
That's who I was trying to thinkof. God Man, that that feels
like such an obscure show because it'sso I just felt like, oh man,

(50:36):
I was just immersed in that world. Like I felt like I was
like I had to take breaks watchingepisodes in that show because I just felt
like I was living in his apartmentwith the It was almost like I could
smell it through the screen, thelighting, the dinginess, like it was
such a real raw and I feltreally like we were talking about hero worship,

(51:00):
like it really made him not intoa guy you would like, not
a hero, just like a disgusting, perverted, gross human being. So
yeah, I recommend that one aswell. Yeah, and that show got
too much, It got too muchflak. I'd say they really went above

(51:22):
and beyond in terms of giving thoseaffected by him their due. I believe
they even got the last scene ofthe show, and they even cut out
stuff about him that could have beenseen in a positive light, like a
lot of people like you wouldn't learnfrom the show that he was a bit
of a class clown and considered kindof a goofball. Right. They didn't

(51:44):
show him posing with the snowman withthe boner and all that kind of stuff,
Right, They didn't want to painthim as like a goofy guy or
something. And so I think thatI don't know, I do think that
there was a little bit of artificialoutrage surrounding that show, like it just
it was popular enough to get theheat. Let me ask you about that

(52:07):
before we get into the next question, because that brings up an interesting ethical
dilemma that I've struggled with and I'vehad. Actually I've seen it on on
social media on Facebook, people askingabout it too, so I know it's
something people are wondering about. Idon't know if you knew, but in
Dahm or one of the victims cameout after the show aired and said that

(52:30):
she was not consulted and didn't approvehow or not the victim. One of
the families of the victims and saidthat she didn't approve of the way her
her family member was portrayed. Didyou hear about that? Yes? Yes,
and yeah. You know, thething is, when you're telling a
fiction fictionalized version of true crime,I mean, it's just a nature of

(52:54):
the beast that some things aren't goingto be one percent accurate. And the
thing is, and I'd love todo like a speak on this or something.
I've done a few like for podcastmovement and stuff. But I think
true crime in general is overall greatfor society, and I think that there

(53:15):
is some correlation there. You thereis a you know, serial killers,
right like their movement, their bodycount, etc. I mean, they
were like at an all time peakin the eighties, and as like a
reaction to that, you know,in the early nineties, all these true
crime shows started popping up, andpeople are so much more informed, right,

(53:37):
Like they're not just like hopping inevery car and hitchhiking and every single
vehicle and you know, like someof these, you know, true crime
shows. They're almost like minor survivalguides, you know, and now anyone
that wants to be a serial killer, they're also hyper aware of all the
technology out there that exists that couldpotentially stop them. And you know,

(54:00):
I think overall it's been a netpositive for humanity. I think that this
sort of information is actually important.And and then just sort of like a
side note to that to just elaborateon, like my stance on you know,

(54:22):
the coverage is this, and I'msure you might feel a little bit
this way. Although I don't wantto speak for you, this is something
I feel like I need to do, Like it's like a desire that I'm
going to like, I'm going todo it. I'm going to create,
and this is the way that Iwant to create. And the way I've
always treated it is like, hey, if you want to come along with

(54:43):
me, that's fine, But alsoI understand if you don't. You know,
yeah, I can. I canunderstand that. And that kind of
leads into not our next question,but a question I had for you,
which is, so in this littledrama, the way I understand it,
I'm not super red on it,but was the family came out and said

(55:04):
this or a family member, andthen the writers actually said, well,
we actually tried to contact you,but we never heard back like we tried.
I don't know if it was wanceor multiple times, but that brings
me to this kind of conundrum insmall creator probably not the level you're at,
but level I'm at, and peoplewho have less followers than me maybe

(55:27):
are listening. Want to create atrue crime podcast? Do you ever consider
reaching out to victim or family ofthe victims when you're covering a case and
how would you balance that or whatadvice would you give to a smaller show?

(55:49):
Because what I've struggled with is amI actually maybe dredging up stuff that
this person doesn't really like a showwith a hundred listeners? Do I really
need to go to the family oris that actually maybe potentially causing more harm?
Because who cares if I'm doing ashow that fifty people are going to

(56:13):
listen to versus a Netflix show wherefifty million people? What what would you
what advice would you give or speak? What would you say on that issue?
Yeah? No, So, justto answer the first part of the
question, Yeah, I do veryfrequently speak with the victims family. I've

(56:35):
been reached out first, Like sometimesthat's why I cover a case, and
that's why I'll even decide to covera case. In my experience, a
lot of people, especially if they'velost someone, you know, they almost
want their story heard. In alot of cases, I think sometimes and
not every time, but sometimes peopleare getting outraged for people that you know,

(57:00):
they're they're speaking for the victim anda victim's family and assuming making assumptions.
One of the great examples of thatis, Uh, I spoke with
people involved and I can't get intotwo month details on this episode I did
on the porn industry, and uhthat that even though that was black label,

(57:21):
that one did give a little bitof heat considering the subject. But
uh, without you know, sayingher name or anything like. There was
a particular former porn actress that helpedquite a quite you know, a great
deal, providing some background on certainthings, and um, people made the
assumption that I hadn't you know,Uh, they just assumed. For example.

(57:45):
Um. Now, as far assmall creators like reaching out the families,
like I mean, at the endof the day, like the way
that I would put it is thatHey, if you reach out to someone
and they decline, you just respectthat, you know, like if they're
like, no, I don't wantto talk about this, like don't push
the issue, you know that thatwould be like my advice. And you

(58:08):
know, hey, look, evenif you only have like a hundred listeners,
right, those hundred listeners, goand tell five people. Right,
that's now five hundred people that aremore aware, you know. And so
yeah, I think that yes,don't get me wrong, it is a
bit of a moral dilemma. Butthe best advice I could give is to

(58:30):
be decent, you know, likerespect the family's wishes. If they close
you down, move on, youknow. That's the way I would put
it. This is a question thatyou've already answered. Actually it's what our
whole episode has been about. ButDanis Simon asked one more question from Twitter,

(58:50):
what's the most difficult podcast you've done? So I would ask besides for
Caitlyn Nicole Davis, I would ask, what's the second most difficult? Well,
uh, yeah, that would definitely. I did an episode covering the
animal crush industry, and I aman animal lover, uh and uh,

(59:12):
you know, in my a lotof my research and stuff. Uh,
you know, I heard a lotof animal screaming, you know, it
was echoing in my brain. Anduh, I've learned very quickly by the
way, Um people are okay with, uh, you know, covering true
crime related to humans, but abouthalf your listeners have no interest in any

(59:35):
crime related to animals, you know, And I get it, you know,
trust me, I get it.Like I said, you know,
it's probably that's probably like the secondroughest episode that I've covered. And yeah,
so yeah, the animal Crush episode. That's uh. I got to
throw this out there that that I'vealways been one too. When I watch

(59:59):
horror movies, I always kind ofrolled my eyes that people were like,
oh, I can't watch the dogif a dog gets killed, I don't
want to see the horror movie,you know. And but then when I
started covering true crime and reading aboutactual animal abuses, I've found and this
is kind of like a karma forme that I'm the same way. Like

(01:00:21):
with actual animal abuse, like Crush, I couldn't I actually couldn't listen to
it. And researching animal crimes,I've there's been a case I wanted to
cover and I just was like,actually, I don't have I don't have
it in me. Oh and thisbrings up one more thing. Did you
say that Peter Scully case was sohorrific you don't think you could cover that

(01:00:46):
one? Yeah, there's something aboutthat. There's something about that that,
like, I don't want to livein that world for the amount of time
it would take me to cover it. And you know, I just I
put it out there when they like, Hey, if you're ever googling my
show and that name, you know, like, just know, like that's

(01:01:07):
a case I'm personally not interested incovering. And look, you know,
like I know there's some people thatwould say that that's like contradictory to my
overall like mission statement or whatever.But the thing is, there's something in
particular about that case where you know, and I'm sure if you know about
Peter Scully, maybe you would understandthere's something about that one that just like

(01:01:32):
I don't know, I just don'thave it in me. You know,
I'll leave that to other people.I think I relate to that. I
tend to fall on the philosophy sidethat there is good and evil, but
so much of it is like ahuman construct, and at the end of
the day, these are human beings. I know we probably vary a little

(01:01:55):
bit around philosophical ideas around that,but Peter Scully, I do think there's
something about him that does seem inhuman, which I'm very hesitant to say that
about anybody. And I think Iagree with you that I would be very
I don't think I could cover thatcase either. It's just yeah, what

(01:02:20):
is what is your Twitter handle?But twitter handle is at Obscure Crime Pod.
Out of all the social media isthat's the one that I'm I'm most
active on. I kind of pickedmy lane, so to speak. Yeah,
you know, being active on one. I enjoy your Twitter conversation,
so yeah, I would. Iwould say please go follow Obscure on Twitter

(01:02:42):
at Obscure Crime Pod. And ifyou want to ask a question for one
of our future podcasts, follow usat the True Crime Pod. That's at
the True Crime Pod on Twitter andWill and now who were interviewing, and
you can throw out any questions youhave for them. We also are on

(01:03:06):
Facebook, Facebook dot com slash theTrue Crime Pod. We'll do the same
thing there where if you're on Facebookyou can ask questions. So we have
Melissa Anderson no questions. Just saidI love Justin. I don't have a
question. I just think his podcastis fantastic. We have Heather Gouda.

(01:03:27):
I hope I'm saying her name right. What's the worst case he covered so
far? We kind of just coveredthat, but we also have if someone's
new to your podcast, what caseepisode would you recommend to start with?
And if they answer is Nicole orCaitlyn Nicole Davis, what would be your
second? Yeah, no, myanswer actually wouldn't be the Caitlyn Nicole Davis.

(01:03:51):
I just felt that it would bethe more interesting one to discuss as
far as like, you know,internally, what I want to tell people
is, h you know, startwith the most recent episodes a lot of
times, right, like us creators, like you know, we don't have
like the world's biggest budgets, andso we get better, you know,

(01:04:15):
just through experience, right, andlike, uh, what we're putting on
like a lot of the time,since we don't have the most professional setups
in the world, is a sortof magic show, you know, and
we get better at that as timegoes on. So, you know,
my my gut reaction usually is like, you know, please listen to the

(01:04:36):
most recent episodes, right, becauselike that's my you know, if you
continue to improve, that's your bestwork, right. But I will say
the episode that like seems to beeverybody's favorite is the Nick Stoutzenburger episode.
You know, so if you ifyou want to get started on the one
that, like I still get emailsabout like every day, check out the

(01:04:58):
Nick Stoutenburger episode. I think thatwas my first as well too. And
yeah, holy shit, it's ait's jumping right in the water. But
yeah, I highly recommend that episode. Compelling and just a fucking crazy ride
keyword shit. Yeah, literally yep. Um Ian Brennan says, who was

(01:05:20):
the Jack rip Ripper? We don'tknow unless you do know. Just no.
Kate wealinga a friend of the show, friend of yours, She asked,
ask him whether he thinks we're drivingourselves crazy or keeping ourselves sane by
sticking around in the podcasting world.A little bit of a little bit of

(01:05:44):
b right, Like, you know, we're keeping ourselves sane by doing something
we're passionate about. But also likeit's it's kind of crazy being involved in
podcasting because everything is in the veryearliest stages of the wild West and podcasting
right Like Spotify just signed you know, like last year, like all these

(01:06:06):
contracts and this time, you know, this year, suddenly like they're all
gone, they like fired, likeeveryone. And that's been the story of
every like podcasting company I've ever seen, like, you know, um,
even like Wondering. Wondering was likethe Big Dog and now like the CEO

(01:06:27):
or something, I hear is introuble or something, and I think,
um, I can't remember, there'sanother one the podcast. I think they
they're they're closing down, They're done. And so yeah, my advice would
be to oh, Stitcher, Stitcher'sgoing away. And so it's constantly evolving,

(01:06:49):
it's constantly changing. I think it'sabsolutely here to stay. You know,
it's just a part of cultural relevance. It's in movies everything else.
But um, you could go alittle crazy laying up at night wondering like
what angle you're supposed to take andetc. And Kate had a follow up

(01:07:10):
question something about how okay, sorry, something about how once in a while
you make legitimate friendships while dealing withdark subject matter. Did you expect or
imagine that podcasting would be mostly solentarysolitary endeavor. Yeah, you know,

(01:07:31):
um, it's it's it's kind ofinteresting. Most of the people that I
know through podcasting are the people Imet early on. Um, I mean
I remember, how long have youbeen doing it? Now? Through just
about three years? Yeah, yeah, So honestly, you might be the
latest person that I you know,like I talked to still, you know,

(01:07:54):
like, um, as you goon, you'll find less and less
podcasters reach out to you for youknow, whatever reason. You know,
maybe they assume it's like rude orsomething to speak to the more established ones,
which I've always been open, like, hey, man, if you
want to reach out and talk podcasting, go right ahead, kind of thing.
You know, I've been open,try to stay an open book.

(01:08:15):
But yeah, it does become moresolitary the longer you stick around. Most
of the podcasters I know and stillspeak to right our people that I met
within like the first year, andwe all try to keep in contact.
And I'm always sad when I seeone of them fade, you know,
one of them, you know,hang up the microphone. There was a

(01:08:41):
podcast Oklahoma Side that I was friendswith the creators, and one day They're
just Twitter was deleted podcast feed deletedand I was like, oh man,
okay, and you know what,I want to comment on that too.
We talked before I think we fullygot recording a little bit about Reddit,
and the one thing I will sayis Reddit, the Reddit users on there

(01:09:03):
can sometimes trend to pretty negative,and I don't think and it's it's some
of us are really good at producingand things like that, so this is
easy to miss. But I don'tthink a lot of people are fully aware
how much of these projects are strictlypassion projects, right, Like this is

(01:09:24):
this is free content being created offof someone's passion and that's it, you
know, And so it's worth keepingin mind before you like hop onto Reddit
or Twitter or whatever and hammer outsomething. Mean. Yeah, I echoed
that they're definitely the top players whoare making unimaginable riches. But I mean

(01:09:46):
I would consider myself almost to likemid level, not quite there, and
I'm not making minimum wage yet offof the podcast, so it's definitely like
it's definitely a passion projects still forme. So yeah, I would say,
just yeah, just remember it.For probably what there's like ten new

(01:10:10):
true crime podcasts a week, youknow, for most people it's just trying
to, you know, invest sometime in a hobby and give you something
to listen to. So yeah,maybe just don't go too hard on us.
Please go hard on the big guyslike Justin. No, just kid
him, not on you. Let'ssee. Gemma Grace also a friend of

(01:10:35):
yours, friend of the show,which for anybody listening to, Gemma was,
as Justin said, helped him earlyon in writing, and he recommended
her to me and she's helped mewrite a season The Bogel Chandler Australian case.
So just a phenomenal writer and areally nice person too. She says,

(01:10:59):
how do you you instinctively know whendark is too dark? That's something
I sorry, I had like acoughing fit a moment ago. No,
no, wheries, take your time. I was recording earlier, and I
think it's caught up to me.Yeah, that's something I kind of struggle
with. I'll be honest with you. That's one of the reasons why Black
Label was created. Gemma. WhenI did work with her for a season

(01:11:25):
of the show, she was agood compass for me, you know what
I mean, Like she has areally strong sense of that as far as
two dark goes. It's kind ofrough because like for me, like a
lot of the times, like whatends up black label is I'll have cases

(01:11:45):
in mind and I'll sort of havea pile of like, Okay, this
is probably black label, this isprobably black label. But on occasion I'll
release an episode, you know,I'll get emails and stuff of people saying,
like a man, that that shouldhave probably been black label, you
know, and it's like the problemis is that when you're when you're in

(01:12:08):
it, when you're researching, andwhen you're putting the episode, you know,
sort of the opposite problem of theCaitlin Nicole Davis thing, you know,
the opposite of the toll is sometimesyou can end up desensitized to it
once the episode's finally coming together,and uh, you know, like,
hey, you know, how aboutit. Here's a little bit of a

(01:12:30):
little bit of a self phone,so to speak. One of the dumbest,
most bone headed things I ever did, right, And I got heat
for this, and you know what, that's fine. It was like episodes
seven through nine, and I actuallyrecreated these episodes and sort of fixed them.
Later on, I did a threepart series on Oba Chandler and um,

(01:12:55):
I got transcripts. This is ohman, I can't even believe I'm
talking about it. But it wasjust so stupid of me. I was
very early on I wrote, like, reached out to a voice act voice
actress, and we did a completerecreation of like a real life rape,

(01:13:17):
you know, with the voices andeverything. And I put the episodes at
like the first episode out not thinkingabout it, and immediately people are like,
what are you thinking? And Irealized after I had put it,
like what was I thinking? Youknow? So those episodes came down and
they were recreated and hopefully a lotyou know, more respectfully. And it's

(01:13:42):
just an example of like when you'rein that sort of creator's mindset, you
can get carried away with yourself andyou can make dumb decisions. And so
you know, this was like episodesseven through nine many years ago at this
point, but it's just you gottastay agilan of kind of like catching yourself

(01:14:02):
from doing something you know that's maybeinsensitive or stupid. So I could totally
see that seeming like a good idea, when when it was produced, what
did just seem like tacky or justit just didn't land. Yeah, it
Uh, I mean, yeah,it just yeah, it was. It

(01:14:25):
was definitely like a cheesy thing todo, first of all, but also
it was just it was just tasteless. You know. New Recreating conversations I
think is like fine, you know, but recreating a rape I think is
just you know, obviously in retrospecta step too far. You know,

(01:14:45):
that makes sense. And I justwant to say, of course I bring
that up to Jema's question, right, and I'm gonna I'm gonna rightfully get
a brow beating from that one.Well, hey, we all, we
all make mistakes. That's the thingtoo. If you want to be a
creator, you know, are youjust gonna make the same thing everybody's made,

(01:15:06):
Like like we were saying, there'sten new true crime podcasts a week,
if not a day, So yougot to take risk. You know,
you're probably gonna mess up. Iknow I've screwed stuff up. So
yeah, I appreciate you being inthe arena. As they say, we

(01:15:28):
have just a few more questions thisone. I'll totally let you pass on
if you want to, Richard Stoodlesays, ask him about his fight with
Boudet, also ask if he hasa hard time emotionally recording episode, especially
Black Label. We've kind of talkedabout that. And then he also says,
ask him, I'm gonna do Richarda favor. I was going to

(01:15:51):
tell him, I'm not gonna doyour dirty work for you, but he
said, ask him if you liketrue crime comedy and if you'd ever come
on Private Dicks or Unethical. That'sRichards two shows that he's on. I'd
happily go on a show. LikeI said, a lot of times people
just don't reach out to me.But as far as the Mica day stuff,

(01:16:12):
I've completely I've moved past that,you know what I mean, Like,
yeah, you know, I don'treally want that to be like to
divine anything I do, you know, And so yeah, and on top
of that, you know, likeat the end of the day, I
have listeners that listen to Sword andScale. You know, it doesn't it

(01:16:33):
doesn't affect my day. Like it'sfine. I'm okay with it. You
know, I've moved past it.Yeah, that makes sense. And if
you want to know more, Imean, damn, there's like articles about
it. There's there's so much Ithink. Oh man, there was like
a pretty in depth YouTube documentary aboutMike Boudet. That's out there. So

(01:16:57):
if you want to go in depthinto all this controversies, it's definitely out
there. Um, Catherine Case said, I love Justin as podcast. What
droomed true Crime that actually we haven'treally talked about. They said, also
why do you stay doing this?But what what drew you to true crime
originally? Yeah? Um, forme, I was, you know,

(01:17:25):
first off, I've always been intolike darker things, you know, Um,
I know we're both fans of DavidLynch, right, and so stuff
like that. Definitely like probably,but then also when I was a kid,
Um, two of my favorite showswere Unsolved Mysteries and nine one one
Rescue. Um, I in America'smost Wanted as well, And I was

(01:17:49):
just like it was still compelling tome because it was like a lot of
people don't remember, but like backthen there like a lot of the shows
on TV were so like they wereso neutered, you know, like they
needed to be for advertising, andthen like Unsolved Mysteries and nine one one

(01:18:09):
Rescue and you know, these showscome on it's like they take the gloves
off, you know, and yeah, like I would sit there like after
the episode was over and just likemy mind would still be like racing,
like thinking about it. And thenover the years I fell into like before
it was even like a term thatis common now, I would fall into

(01:18:31):
these like internet rabbit holes, youknow, where you find out about a
subject and then you go deeper anddeeper and deeper into it, and it
just like seemingly never ends kind ofthing, right, And it's kind of
hard to imagine now, right,But like back when I was first creating

(01:18:54):
the podcast, part of me Iwasn't really happy with the amount of options
that were available in podcasting the time. There just wasn't all that many.
You know, most of them weresort of and by the way, there's
no issue with this, right,Like I'm cool, like I like these
kind of shows in their own way, but most of them were kind of
like multiple host kind of like jokeytype shows and stuff, and there wasn't

(01:19:18):
a ton of the solo host youknow, you had like case File,
he had Sword and Scale. Ofcourse, believe it or not, I
actually started as a fan, andyou know, I mean I can't really
think of too many others, andso when I started the show, I

(01:19:42):
was like, I want to kindof throw my hat into the ring on
this, you know, I wantto provide my own voice as far as
this goes. And I think therewas another part of the question of like
how do I still do it orwhy do I still do it or something
like that. The how is becauseprobably because I got in pretty early,

(01:20:03):
to be honest, and then ofcourse there's the purple marketing thing, Purple
Kyle marketing. The why is becauselike this is just like genuinely what I
like to do, you know,and I'm happy to do it as long
as I can do it. Andso luckily, you know, I'm very

(01:20:24):
very lucky in the fact that Imake enough to like cover the bills and
also like live comfortably. You know, That's the way I would put it.
Awesome what Kristen Cevee, who she'sawesome man, she does a murder,
she told podcast. What draws youto a case? And how do

(01:20:45):
you pick the cases you work on? Which I'll elaborate too. I mean,
there's freaking hundreds of really fascinating,interesting crimes, So how do you
hone in on a specific case?For me, it's almost intangibles, you
know, I've I've thought about thata lot actually like what makes me land
on certain subjects or cases, andit's like the stuff that it exists in

(01:21:10):
between the lines. I don't know, it's it's it's hard to describe,
but like when you when you landon something that you want to cover,
you just sort of know you're like, oh, yeah, I guess this
is what I'll be doing kind ofthing, you know, yeah, I
know that feeling. Morbidology Emma tomThomas Cree podcast, by the way,

(01:21:33):
it is man phenomenal and such anice person too. She's up there with
you in the rarefied field of justreally welcoming but also a huge podcast.
Number wise, um, Morbidology hada bunch of questions. I'm just going
to cover the ones that we haven'tasked yet. What was the first podcast

(01:21:55):
you listen to? And what aresome of your favorite podcasts? So the
first podcast I listened to was onmy PlayStation portable back when I was like
fifteen or sixteen years old. Iwas like an earth like, I was
like an early podcast guy. SoI had a PlayStation portable and they had

(01:22:15):
like an like. One of thethings they advertised is that it had RSS
capability, which, like not everythingdid back then, And so I went
and I started just downloading random podcasts. And it's the most boring answer ever,
but I guess technically the first podcastI ever listened to was like a
podcast on like Coffee, Like itwas some guy he was like a coffee

(01:22:39):
aficionado, and it was just thefact that I was downloading a podcast.
And I think I eventually started listeningto like Ricky Gervais back then. Oh
man, his podcast was hilarious withCarl. Yeah, I first got Carl
on Oh my god, I lovethose old episodes. So I mean,
I mean there for a while hewas like the only big one I think,

(01:23:01):
like very early on. And whatwas the other question, what are
some of your favorite podcasts? Oh? Some of my favorite podcasts. So
for a while I would listen tothere's a podcast called your Kickstarter sucks U.
I'm on a little bit of ahiatus because I like the episodes that

(01:23:23):
build up, but um, Iwould listen to that show on like repeat.
I've probably listened to it, likeI want to say, like seven
times, seven times, like allthe way through, like I get to
the end, and I would justlike listen to it from beginning. If
you want to know my sense ofhumor. Those guys are like they just

(01:23:44):
like match it like one. Youknow, so your Kickstarter Sucks is one
of my favorite podcasts of all time. Definitely. I don't listen to a
lot of true crime, but ironicallyMorbidology. You know, if my wife's
wanting to listen to I'm in thecar, I'll pick that. She's absolutely
phenomenal one that sort of came uparound the time I did that. I

(01:24:06):
have a lot of respect for isMen's Ray. I don't know if I'm
pronouncing it right, but she's fantastic. I listened to a few news podcasts.
I know that's pretty boring to say, but it kind of keeps me
sort of like up to date asfar as that goes. Other than that,

(01:24:27):
I don't listen to too many atthis point, you know, Like
I tend to just listen to thesame a lot of the same podcasts I've
always listened to, and then Iuse YouTube as well as sort of like
you know, when I want tolisten to something, you know, I
have YouTube breads or premium or whatever, and I just listened to it in
the background. Nice as I wantto throw this out there's a YouTube series

(01:24:51):
that I watched that covers really badkickstarters, and the humor of that reminded
me of this podcast called the WorstIdea of All Time? Have you ever
heard of that? No, butit sounds up my anie. Oh,
I think you would really enjoy thiseach season and it just started as one

(01:25:14):
season, like they thought no onewas really going to listen to it is
they decide to watch Grown Ups twoonce a week for a year and review
it, review it every week,and it's this descent into madness. I've
only heard the first two seasons,which are Grown Ups two is season one,

(01:25:35):
and then season two, which mighteven be better, is Sex in
the City two, which is whichis a two hour and twenty six minute
film. So they watched that oncea week for an entire year and review
it each week, and it's justit's hilarious. It's really really funny.

(01:25:57):
Oh well, not a podcast.You kind of reminded me. A show
that I use as a podcast becauseI've seen the episode so much is a
Red Letter Media. They're probably overallone of my most watched creators. What
do they do media reviews? RedLetter Media they do best to the worst

(01:26:17):
and like, uh yeah, likethey just um they review bad movies,
you know, and but they they'reone of the earliest to have done it,
and they have like extremely like cableproduction values, you know, but
with indie sensibilities. Well, thankseverybody for asking your questions at the True

(01:26:40):
Crime Pod on Twitter and Facebook,dot com, slash at the True Crime
Pod, oh and Instagram at theTrue Crime Pod. Anyways, just keep
an eye out follow us on thoseand we'll have future questions for our creators.
Um, justin thank you so muchdoing this. Is there any final

(01:27:01):
thoughts you wanted to share with usabout anything at all? Yeah? Well,
first off, thanks for having meon. I really appreciate it.
I'd like to get to talk abouttrue crime in this capacity and sort of
like you know, the general philosophybehind it and everything, like for some

(01:27:23):
people can be an uncomfortable discussion,you know, but I actually find it
kind of therapeutic because usually when Iget asked about podcasting out and about like
if my wife says like, I'ma podcaster, people have questions about like
the technical aspects behind it. Usuallylike oh, so what what do you

(01:27:44):
do? You just talk into yourmicrophone or you know, like it never
goes further than that, you know, and so I appreciate getting to sort
of exercise the brain muscles. Asfar as the how the why, it's
um are more so the why insteadof just the how, I guess and

(01:28:04):
uh, as far as like justyou know, anything to add, Yeah,
No, I just sort of wantto reiterate, UM. You know,
just be you know, if youif you're a listener, you know,
um be just be a little bitmore, you know, you know,
consider the fact that, uh,these projects are passion projects, you

(01:28:28):
know. And uh, whenever youwrite in before you press send, just
remind yourself that the audio you're aboutthat you heard, you know, that
might have upset you or whatever,that is likely the best that that person
could do at that moment. Theyare giving you their best. Um,

(01:28:50):
and before you hit send, justknow to some degree what you're saying is
that their best wasn't good enough.That's powerful. Can I ask you one
last question? Sure about? Ijust had this idea or a question pop
into my head for small creators,you know, at my level or maybe

(01:29:12):
even just getting started. What advicedo you have any general advice or specific
advice anything that you would like wantto say. Yeah. And I've worked
with some other podcasters in terms oflike breaking out, and there's some that
have seen more success than me fromfollowing my advice. So, you know,

(01:29:38):
first starting from the you know,the minimum, make sure that your
podcast is different. I think that'simportant because the second your podcast is similar
to someone else's, you now havenatural competition, right that other person is
essentially now your competitor. But theother thing, this is the more boring

(01:30:00):
answer that people don't really like,is you just you have to be active
on social media. There's really noway around it. You just you have
to because if not, you're justshouting into the void, you know.
And I have periods where I getlazy on the social media. There's been
long periods where something bad has happenedin my life or something like that,

(01:30:23):
and I've just ghosted for a month, you know, from social media.
But the thing is, if youwant people to listen, people, even
even your standard listeners, sometimes theyneed to be reminded that you exist,
you know. So it's unfortunate,but to some degree, social media is
the heartbeat of your show show,you know, It's what keeps it alive.

(01:30:48):
And so yeah, that would bethe thing. And honestly, the
third one and maybe the most important, become obsessed with your show, you
know what I mean, like evershut up about it, find yourself talking
about it NonStop to others and havingto ask yourself or remind yourself, Hey,
I can't just keep talking about itall the time. And if you

(01:31:12):
become obsessed with it, then allthe other stuff will kind of fall into
place. Awesome, man, I'llremind everybody. Speaking of socials, follow
Justin on his most active is ObscuraCrime pod on Twitter, and thank you
again Justin. It's been an absolutepleasure everybody. If you haven't heard in

(01:31:35):
our feed the Caitlyn Nicole Davis episode, go back listen to that. Hopefully
you listen to that first, butif you didn't, go back listen to
that, and of course subscribe toObscura wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks
again, Justin, Thanks for havingme. Yeah, I always get a

(01:32:16):
I get a few pre jitters beforeI go into an interview. And oh,
by the way, should I berecording now? Um? Yeah,
why not? I'm I just hitrecord on my audio hijack, which is
what I'm just using in the background. I'm gonna go ahead. If you
don't mind, I'll record my video. You're totally cool not to show up,

(01:32:41):
but just I don't know. Ifeel like you can never have too
much content nowadays. Yeah. Yeah, maybe maybe I'll use it on YouTube
one day. I don't even know. But as long as you're cool,
um, you know you don't haveto go on video though. Yeah.
At the start of this month,I was like finishing off episodes, and

(01:33:02):
I finished like three, like backto back. I just had gotten into
a terror nice like like an idiotthough. I released them like right away,
like on the Patreon, thinking likeall people are going to really appreciate
this, and within like a fewdays, people were like, so when's
the next episode? You know,like a rookie mistake of releasing them too

(01:33:23):
close together. Oh yeah, didyou release them like all on one day.
I released them like one day afterthe next, basically when I should
have at least put like a fewdays between each type of thing. Yeah,
I've I have a couple like littlebonus at Patreon episodes. It's been
really hard not to release them allat one time. So that's good.

(01:33:45):
I'm learning from you not to dothat because I was like, maybe this
is a good idea to put themall right out there, but you build
the expectation maybe for them to Okay, now he's going to give us three
episodes a week or something. Yeah, well, I think what happens is
is that And you know, Ithink I think I'm kind of I'm bad

(01:34:08):
about this too. Is that youknow, we have short term memories when
it comes to content, right,and if you marathon it all in one
day, within like a week,you're like, all right, so when's
that next content? You know?Yeah, oh, I totally understand that.
Oh I wanted to tell you too. You know, I told you

(01:34:29):
I had that one post blow upon Redditum I all my accounts were perma
band today from Reddit. Yeah.I think that reddit has some of the
most self serious mods out there.It's sort of a culture where they view

(01:34:51):
all content being posted as like asituation where it's like for like a greater
good or something, and it's kindof just like a why they tell themselves
and it's like it's it's yeah,it's kind of weird. Like you kind
of if you're if your content creatoron there, you have to like ride
this really tough, like balancing actor else, like you're just that's it,

(01:35:15):
your band, You're done whatever.Yeah, yeah, I didn't know
this was my fault though. Imean I had a few posts taken down,
which I always know is going tohappen in different subreddits. But I
had posted screenshots of someone's Facebook accountin a true crime case I'm covering,
and apparently that's like against Reddit policy, and the admins they they banned my

(01:35:41):
account yesterday. And then I hadlike five other tiny ones that I use
for other stuff, and they theyperm a band every account I've ever made
on Reddit. And I was like, oh fuck, well this sucks because
now I got my little subred it'sonly got like a hundred people. But
I'm like, oh okay, wellshit, that sucks. Whatever. Yeah,

(01:36:05):
they kind of take the like theidea of doxing to the extreme because
like a lot of times, likei mean Facebook posts, people tend to
keep their Facebook's public, you know, and so if you're taking screenshots,
I mean that's publicly available information,right right. Yeah, I mean it
was just a Facebook group too thatthe other people had posted about this person.

(01:36:29):
But yeah, I didn't even know, Like I definitely wouldn't have posted
if I had known. But itmakes sense too, I guess, you
know, with the whole body.Do you remember the Boston Marathon thing that
Reddick got in trouble with. Ohyeah, we did it read at moment.
Yeah yeah, So like now,looking back, I'm like, oh
yeah that, uh, it makessense to be more cautious on that side.

(01:36:53):
But I'm gonna try to appeal it, I guess, and see if
THO I don't know, they might, they might not. I guess I'm
gonna switch over to Twitter Blue likeyou were saying, I'm already gonna try
that out. So yeah, it'sone of those things where I don't necessarily
want to be paying for a checkmark, but it's so useful right now,

(01:37:15):
I think like they've intentionally made ita bit overpowered, and so it's
it's just really decent for promotion,especially like I don't like to be on
social media all day, so toget a shortcut is appreciated. Yeah,
that's a good point. I evensaw. I think Instagram just rolled out
the same offering where you can geta blue check mark by paying a monthly

(01:37:40):
thing. So I was I wasthinking about maybe trying that too. Have
you heard anything about that. Thetrouble I find with like Facebook and Instagram
is that they're pretty paid to playin general, Like they're kind of walled
gardens. You know, like whenyou post on Twitter, there's just a
chance that you know, every nowand then you win that minor lottery and

(01:38:01):
your post just gets pops off,you know, if you're active enough.
Uh, that just doesn't really happenwith Instagram when when someone's browsing Instagram,
due to the nature of like howit works, they very infrequently see stuff
that they're not meant to see.I like a cat by the way,
oh yeah this is Iggy, Sayhi, Iggy. He'll be jumping up

(01:38:23):
to say yeah. Yeah. Itsucks too because Instagram used to have so
much discoverability with the hashtags, butthen they killed it. Like you're saying,
for the for the money. Haveyou tried TikTok at all or no?
So, I know that's like ahuge, you know, like pillar

(01:38:44):
of advertising at this point. Butthe thing is is like I feel like,
you know, I'm like thirty five, and uh, I feel like
I'm too out of touch for TikTokfor what is it? What you wanted
to say? To say, yeah, TikTok. Yeah, I'm thirty four,
so I totally feel you. I'mlike in a new world when I
open that app. I don't understandhow to even really make videos on it

(01:39:10):
or it's fucking but the discoverability isinsane, Like it's like Instagram in the
early days still, but yeah,it's it's fucking weird. It's a weird
app. Yeah. Yeah, Ifeel like I'd just be like slipping on
bananappeals basically. In fact, ithas a tie in a little bit to

(01:39:34):
the Caitlin Davis story because what wasthat site live something me that she would
go live on. Yeah, Ithink it's like live dot me or something
like that live dot me. Yeah, because like if I'm browsing TikTok,
because I'll get that's another problem withmaybe you can relate. I don't know,

(01:39:54):
but like when you're active on thesesocial media sites, all of a
sudden, you find yourself mindlessly housingeven when you're not posting, and like
all these live streams will come upfor me sometimes if I get into the
live feed, there's like two feeds. There's like one that's main stuff and
then there's a live one and ifyou click a live video and then keep

(01:40:15):
scrolling, all of a sudden you'rein the live feed, and you know,
it can be I usually watch peopleplaying video games, just because that's
what I tend to do. Butthen you'll get like teenage girls like just
streaming in their bedroom to one hundredpeople, and you're like, this doesn't
feel right. And I looked atsome of the comments since I listened to

(01:40:39):
this episode, and it's like alot of overlap, and it's it's just
a gross feeling when you see thatstill happening. Yeah, it's it's pretty
rampant. I think we're still insort of a soft like a soft wild
West, you know, not asmuch compared to you know, ten years
ago, fifteen years ago or whatever. But still I think that there's stuff

(01:41:01):
that like teens and miners are ableto do on the Internet right now that
probably in fifteen years from now we'llbe looking back on and be like,
jeez, I can't believe, youknow they were able to do that kind
of thing. You know, yeah, yeah, I could see that.
I've also wondered if it could gothe opposite way, though, like with
more apps coming out virtual reality,augmented reality, like if maybe there's a

(01:41:26):
chance it could go in the oppositedirection, I mean, maybe not.
I don't know. I'm it's I'mcurious because I feel like more and more,
um Like you know, when Iwas younger and I would browse the
internet, Um, there are allthese forums and websites and all these like
that, it was like the Internetwas like a whole bunch of connected islands,

(01:41:48):
whereas now it's more like a fewcontinents. Right, Like there there's
certain apps and websites, and youknow a lot of people don't even use
a desktop, You're right, areThey just use like the Twitter app,
the rdit app, etc. AndSo, I mean, at least in
my experience, the Internet has slowly, like you know, gotten smaller yet

(01:42:14):
bigger, if that makes sense.So maybe with virtual reality, who knows,
you know, Like, yeah,the options are limitless. Yeah,
that's a good point. With certainFacebook, Instagram, Twitter, it's like
if you get banned from those three, your your reach is pretty much.
Yeah, and if one of those, like I've always wondered if anybody would

(01:42:38):
ever come out with like you gotto use your driver's license to sign up
and make an account or something.I think that I think that, Uh,
that's kind of like because I thinkFacebook's already kind of pushing for that.
I've heard like people signing up inlike the past year they've been hit
with that, like order have anaccount, have to like scan your driver's

(01:43:00):
license. Interesting. I see alot of pros but a lot of cons
of that. I don't know.I feel like privacy is dead, especially
if you want to be connected onlinein any way. So while like,
yeah, obviously there's tons of cons, Like, I'm kind of just you
just have to accept it. Inour movie, you know, there's Snap

(01:43:23):
Paranoid. I guess you still gota four chan if you want to just
be in this sets pool of ananonymity and degeneracy. Well, you know,
it's a it might be a controversialopinion, like on my part,
but to some degree, I'm happyplaces like that can exist, you know,

(01:43:43):
Like, I know that there's alot of really awful things that go
on, but I like, youknow, just diversity in our world in
general, right, And so ifI'm researching a case or something like that,
you know, like websites like thatcome up frequently, right, and
it's a part of the narrative I'mtelling yeah, I I tend to agree

(01:44:05):
with that too. It is itdefinitely is a hot take because there's people
who are so against it. Imean, I don't spend much time on
fortune, but it's it's, yeah, it's an interesting world there. Um.
There are certain boards that I'll popin every now and again. I
like the literature one. It's actuallydecent place to discuss books. Oh yeah,

(01:44:29):
because no one has First off,it's strictly moderated compared to like a
lot of the other ones. Andsecondly, uh no, since no one
has profiles, right, everyone's actuallyjust saying their opinion, you know.
It's you're not trying to like havelike street cred or something right or collect
like imaginary points that you can lookat. And yeah, I actually do

(01:44:55):
go on the TV film boards sometimes, U for like film recommendations, Um
you know what. One that Iwill go on just to kind of get
a feeling for the heartbeat of dof like MAGA, DGEN politics is the
poll boards just kind of see whattheir opinion of Trump is at the moment,

(01:45:17):
or just to see the wild shitthat's posted there. Sometimes I will
swing in there like right after likea prolific mass shooting and just to see
the absolute craziest stuff you can imagine, what kind of stuff like pro pro
uh like like it's completely like unhinged. Oh that's funny, all right,

(01:45:47):
man? Well, do you mindif I give us like an official intro
read um and then um what Iwas gonna do is kind of ask you
some questions about the episode, thensome questions about obscure, and then I
got we actually got quite a fewum user questions, so I was kind

(01:46:12):
of gonna try to save some timefor those because those A lot of the
questions I was going to ask youcame from users anyway, So I was
like, that'd be kind of funto let them ask it. Sure,
and I've pretty much open availability,so take your time. Hell yeah,
cool man? And then do youmind if we include shit? I don't

(01:46:32):
know, I don't know where Iwould even put it, but that little
intro conversation we just had, doyou mind if I throw that in somewhere
for like premium? No, that'sfun, okay, cool? And of
course it's recorded, so if anythingyou want me to take out later,
I can do that. A bigdeal. Are you recording right now?

(01:46:53):
I guess I should double check.Yeah, yeah, I've been recording for
fifteen minutes. Oh hell yeah,okay. Welcome to the True Crime Pod
Presents podcast. Our special guests today

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Obscura - Interview with the Creator

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Obscura - Interview with the Creator