#92 – Andy J. Pizza – Can Turning Up the Volume Make Creativity Louder? - The Truth In This Art: Stories That Matter

Episode Transcript
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Rob Lee (00:10):
Welcome to the truth in this art, your source of
conversations at theintersection of arts, culture,
and community. I am your host,Rob Lee. Thank you for joining
me. Today, I'm excited to be inconversation with my next guest.
He is a New York Timesbestselling author, illustrator
known for his books for bothchildren and adults, and is the

(00:30):
creator of the popular podcastCreative Pep Talk.
His work titles includeInvisible Things and A Pizza
with Everything on It, and heinspires and encourages
creativity. Please welcome, Andyj Pizza. Welcome to the podcast.

Andy J Pizza (00:46):
Hey. Good to be here.

Rob Lee (00:48):
Yeah. So, so I wanna go into to this question, you know,
as we're going into thisinterview, what have you, and,
when I think of your work, Ithink of color, I think of
exploration, I think of whimsy,I think of fun. And even looking
at the visual, like, even in thebackground, I love when people

(01:10):
have, like, their space, and Ijust see like, I literally see
over your shoulder, there's asmiling face on one side.
There's a muppet right there.And Yeah.
It's fun. So if you will, and Icouldn't help but smile, right,
in doing the research by theway. Nice. Could you describe
your work and the style of yourwork, if you will?

Yeah. I mean, the style of my work, I think it's
funny. There's definitely amaximalist quality, and you'll
see that also, and you're seeingin the background max pure
maximalism. I think it justcomes from being ADHD, feeling
like, really understimulated byexistence. It's kind of a it's

(01:49):
one of those things, I think,any kinda condition that anybody
has, any experience that peoplehave, there's a lot of, you
know, public opinion of whatthey think that means.
Yeah. And ADHD is the samewhere, obviously, it's also down
to the individual's experience.There's a lot of different ways
of being ADHD or an an infiniteways of experiencing that. But,

(02:11):
for me, and I know a huge part,in the research is just about
being understimulated. And so Ithink there's a combo of maybe 2
things that make my work loudand maximalist and fun.
And I think it's 1, theunderstimulated part of my brain
just wanting to, like, cooksomething up that is just 100%

(02:33):
jazzed. I'm all about that.

Rob Lee (02:35):
Yeah.

And then the other part of it is just maybe another
little weird part of it is thatI have color deficiency. So I'm
guessing, like, also, I thinkeven it's so weird. Like, even,
like, color is probably dull tome, generally, because I have
red green color blind. I'm notcolor blind, but I have, like,
this deficiency. Sure.

(02:56):
And so I think maybe, like, mywhole life is, like, turning it
up. Like, let's go to 11, and,you know, you can, commiserate
with my wife and kids because,you know, I can't really when I
go out of town, they're like,man, it was quiet. It was it was
nice and quiet for a minute. Soso, yeah, I think that that's

(03:17):
kinda what it is, maybe. A lotof explosions of color, action,
stuff like that.

Rob Lee (03:23):
So and thank you for that. Yeah. As as I I like like
when people are just, you know,they're they're themselves and
they're turned up. And Yeah. Youknow, I I find, like, especially
when you you have almost the theaudience, especially if it's
someone that's close to, youknow, your your wife, your your
kids, you know, with with mypartner, literally on the
weekends, once she gives me sortof that, you should just do your

(03:43):
thing.
She's like, come on, do yourthing. And I'm always running
this. I got not a dad, but it'sa lot of dad jokes that flow out
of me. Everything is a Yeah.Everything is a bit.
Yeah. And, she's like, are youdone? She's like, I know I know
you have, like, 5 more. I waslike, what do you mean? She's
like, I see it in your head.
You're you're you're Just let

it out. Just just do what you have to do.

Rob Lee (04:03):
Yeah. And, you know, I I have a I have a friend. We
were talking about sort ofreining in our stuff at times.
I'm an Aquarius, and my mypartner, she talks about it as
well. She was like, you havethese, like, grand ideas.
How do you bring them in? How doyou bring them them down? And
especially in in doing, like,this podcast and, like, maybe
articulating ideas, like, whenI'm thinking of doing an

(04:26):
interview, and and and and maybeit's just more of just the
thought comes to mind right now.When I think of doing an
interview, I'm like, I can sitdown for 2 hours with someone,
and it's just like, hey, man.Let's roll it.
And, you know, it's like noteveryone wants to do that. So
it's maybe, alright, it's 30minutes. Maybe it's 45. And it's
just like I have these reallythese interesting questions I'm,

(04:47):
like, just curious about, andit's just wanting it to be a
conversation. So it's trying to,like, bring that down, but also
still be authentic me and thecuriosity and so on.

Yeah. I mean, you know, this is a topic and a
question that I I genuinelythink about all the time,
partially because, a lot of theyou know, my own creative
practice and then doing apodcast about creativity. I
think a lot about, like,creative identity, who you are,

(05:18):
how you get it into your work,kind of the individuation of
that. That's a thing I I am justalways thinking about. I'm also
thinking about it through thelens of ADHD and this idea of
masking, you know, trying toshow up as a presentable version
of yourself that's appropriateto these different areas.
Like, the it's so it's a topic Ithink about a lot because, also,

(05:39):
I'm, you know, some of mycreativity is, like, free
flowing, and then a not a lot ofit is, like, oh, this is
something I like, my drawing issomething I learned to do to
kinda meditate. It's not reallyas natural. It's more like
medication. And I think that I'minterested in that tension

(06:00):
because I don't actually thinkyou should just go through life
being the most fullunadulterated version of
yourself, you know, disregardingeverybody else's sensitivities
and preferences.

Rob Lee (06:13):
Sure.

Like, I so that's a complicated thing because I
think, being able to I like theDolly Parton quote that says,
art is knowing who you are anddoing it on purpose. I love
that. And I also think thatthere's something to do with
knowing how to contain it whenyou need to because that's being

(06:36):
a healthy adult. Like, I I thinkthere's something interesting
about that. And then,ultimately, the reason why I
think about it quite often isone of the main frameworks that
I see life throughphilosophically is, like,
storytelling.

Rob Lee (06:49):
Sure.

Part of that was informed by, like, the hero's
journey. And I really think thehero's journey is this cycle
that we go on forever. If thehero is at home, leaves home
into an extraordinary world, andthen returns home. And I think
it's basically, what that is isyour comfort zone and then your
discomfort zone. And you'recycling through that forever

(07:13):
learning who you are.
Because in your comfort zone,you might feel comfortable, but
you're probably not accessingyour full self. You don't know
until you've, like, gone to theedge of that. You know? I don't
know if that's what you'retalking about, but that's what I
that's what I heard. Like, thisis a delicate, like, tight rope
of being yourself while alsoloving, respecting others, while

(07:35):
also not being fixed in yourmindset of what you already is
and still being curious aboutwhat you could be.
It's like, it's a reallyinteresting, yeah, journey for
me.

Rob Lee (07:51):
No. No. I I think that that's that's absolutely what
I'm here's the thing. It's goodwhen you have a person on it,
you let them cook because youend up getting these other
pieces. I know, like, okay.
That was that was some jonesright now. I was, like, sitting
here. I was like, you know, yourun the pot.

Sorry, man. You opened up a topic that I you
know, it's just my jam. Icouldn't help it.

Rob Lee (08:08):
No. No. And and that's and that's one of the reasons
why, like, I think how I becameaware of you. I'm blanking on
which audio book it was, and Iwas like, I'm gonna reach out.
It may have been, like, death ofthe artist or something.

Yeah. Yeah. With, well, I can't remember his name,
actually. It's

Rob Lee (08:23):
escaping me.

Yeah. Yeah. Derezowitz. That's what it is.
That's what it is.
Yeah.

Rob Lee (08:27):
And then I was just like, alright, let me let me
dive in. Let me explore and, youknow, really getting caught on
exam. I do this, like, you know,I've I wanted to be an
illustrator when I was younger.Mhmm. And, you know, you talked
earlier about Ninja Turtles,what have you.
And I'm definitely gonna ask youa question about that later.
Okay. You know, that was sortof, like, what I wanted to go

(08:47):
into and, you know, illustrationand and so on. And say, oh,
there's no future in that, and,you know, I believed it. And I
just went into business,marketing, and all of that
stuff.
And now, in doing this for thebetter part of 15 years
podcasting, macroly speaking,and doing this particular
podcast for the last 5 years,I'm trying to find ways not to
get bored to satisfy thatcuriosity, and sometimes it's

(09:09):
stretching the boundaries. I'llgive you an example. Yeah. Don't
know how to swim. Right?
Right. Yeah. And I was workingon some podcast, at the
waterfront here in Baltimore.And, the people who organized it
was like, could you do thispodcast on, like, a small yacht,
like this this one of thesponsors? And we do a podcast in
the middle of the inner harborin Baltimore.

(09:29):
Wow. There's water coming in inthe boat, and it's giant boats
around us. I didn't miss a beat,and the person driving the boat
was like, you're really good atthis. We got a little chop going
on there. I was like, this isthis is what I do, and Yeah.
To to the point, after I wrappedit in, you know, I was like, we

(09:50):
got that. We got a goodinterview there. And just
feeling exhilarating and feelingthat that dump of, I guess, the
chemicals in one's body Yeah.Like, wow, that's exhilarating.
Let's do it again.
Whereas beforehand, I'm shaking,like, I don't think I'm gonna
have it's not gonna I'm notgonna make it.

Yeah. Yeah, man. I mean, I think that speaks to you
know, I deal with my own, levelsof anxiety that kinda come and
go, and I think that, I really Idon't think it's a panacea for
it, but I think that, passion issuch a such a powerful
antianxiety tool. You know, whenI go into a social scenario

(10:29):
Yeah. Again, I hate to harp onthe, ADHD thing, but it's such a
huge thing in my life.
And one of the things that makesit difficult to do is, like,
small talk is really difficultfor me. Not even like a
judgmental way. Like, I Inoticed, you know, some people I
know that really cherish smalltalk, and I really respect it,

(10:51):
actually. I think it's a I thinkit's a art, and it's, a
beautiful, like, connectivetissue between people, but I
can't do it. I just don't I Ican't do it.
So when I go into socialsituations, I have a little bit
of social anxiety around that.Yeah. And, just like you said,
like, getting into that passionzone, getting into that, you
know, groove like you're doingin the podcast, like, that's

(11:14):
that's key.

Rob Lee (11:16):
I'm on the same wave, and I have a business degree.
Right? So it's Yeah. Like, hey,man. Network.
Work a room. I was like, I don'tdo that. And I'm very, like,
tall, and I've I've I've lostsome weight, but I'm like a big
dude. So it's just like a like,a giant grizzly bear saying,
hey, man. Get a business card?
It is a lot like that.

Yeah. That's funny.

Rob Lee (11:37):
So could you talk a bit about, like and I was curious
about sort of, like, you'remaking picture books that you
touched on. Right? Yeah. And socreating books for, like, kids
and adults. So what what aresort of the the key differences
there in in your approach maybeto putting together your books,
your approach to maybe speakingto the audience and the
storytelling that storytellingthat goes on in there?

Yeah. I mean, I think that, for me, the thing
that is the most interestingpiece of it is the similarities
between them. And that's justfor me, I'm thinking about story
in the same way. And the the thethe key difference, I really
think, is when it comes to kids,I'm more thinking through the

(12:21):
lens of fiction. And when itcomes to adults, I'm thinking
more through nonfiction.
And the there's kinda I mean,there's a million different
layers to a story, but the 2layers that I think about most
are, like, the symbolic layer orthe metaphor layer, and then
there's what it's about. So,like, this is the point of the

(12:44):
story. This is the kindauniversal idea that I'm trying
to get at. And so you have,like, okay. Toy Story is about
toys.
That's the symbolic layer. Butunderneath, it's about friends.
And it's about how, the weirdways that we go about trying to
get friends and, and how thatcan blow up in our face and and

(13:07):
and why it just matters to be agood friend instead. And so
there's, like, there's alwaysthose 2 layers, and I think
different storytellers do reallycreative things with both of
those. But when I go when I'mtalking to when I'm thinking
about kids stuff, I'm usuallythinking, what's the I start

(13:27):
with the the meaning first.

Rob Lee (13:31):
Yeah.

And then I'm trying to find, the symbols that
can really illustrate that. Soone of my favorite story guys is
a guy named Brian McDonald. Hehas a book called Invisible Ink.
And, he talks about how, theIron Giant, which was a a really
classic great kids movie, issuch a good illustration of this

(13:54):
where the symbolism is emanatingfrom the point of the story. So
this story is about how you getto choose who you wanna be, and
a great way to really put someextreme contrast on that is to
tell the story through thesymbolism of robots that are

(14:15):
supposed to be programmed.
Right? And so for me, I evenwanna take it further than that.
And what helps me is, like,getting common language between
the symbol and the and themeaning. And so for me, I like
to think of that story like it'sabout defying your programming.
Right?
And then when I go into theadult stuff, I'm thinking

(14:35):
usually through the flip of thatwhere I will collect the symbol
stories. So I will collect thestories from my real life. Yeah.
And then I'll try to figure outwhat do they mean or what could
they mean. And then, you know,find like, yeah.
And I think, you know, if you'reif you're doing a nonfiction

(14:55):
storytelling thing, like ThisAmerican Life or, you know,
like, kinda what Mike Birbigliadoes or Hannah Gatsby, I think
that's probably the way it'sworking is you're starting with
these real things

Rob Lee (15:07):
Yeah.

And then you're kinda trying to see what they
could symbolize universally.

Rob Lee (15:12):
Yeah.

And that so those are the 2 different ways I think
about it, but, ultimately,they're the same thing just
kinda flipped.

Rob Lee (15:20):
That makes sense. That makes sense. And thank you for
that. Like, again, I'm I'msitting here and listening to
you. You you break it down, andI'm gonna be stealing as I go
back through and edit thispodcast.

Hey, man. Go, man. This is good. I mean, this is my
stuff that I just keeps mechugging. Like, the I I was
gonna say it's good stuff, butit's good stuff for me.
Like, it makes me feel great. Idon't know if it's good to
anybody else, but it makes meit's kinda what keeps me
ticking.

Rob Lee (15:44):
No. I mean, as the person that would be someone
else, it's it's great.

Right. Thanks, man.

Rob Lee (15:50):
So I wanna hear a little bit about collaboration.
Right? And you you were touchingon sort of, like, the, I guess,
the collab the the collaborativenature, you know, earlier of,
like, when you're havingconversations with people,
you're connecting with peopleand kinda maybe limiting, you
know, maybe a part of instead ofbeing the more blown out
exaggerated version, sort ofthe, this is the you know, we're

(16:12):
around polite company version.

Yeah. So

Rob Lee (16:15):
Yeah. Could you talk about that in the scope of,
like, collaborations with, like,some of these major brands? I
see Target, Warby Parker. I'mlike, usually have Warby Parker
glasses on. Yeah.
It's a box and and the like. Andsort of, like, you know, they
you're working with them.They're reaching out to you. You
know, there's, you know, sortof, we like your work. We like
what's in it.
But how do you meet, you know,there in the middle of doing

(16:36):
what you do, but also meetingthat that that need for the
client?

Yeah. I mean, the way that I think about it is, I
I think that creativity is sucha it's the ultimate mind game.
Like, that's that's literallywhat you're doing is you're
playing a game with your mind.And the game for me is, how do
you access the room you need toaccess when you need to access

(17:03):
it? So it's like so you need, atthe start, you need to access
the part of you that's reallyopen, nonjudgmental.
As you move through, you have tofigure out literally how to
change your brain state intobeing your own critic. Like and
then there's a 1,000,000,000other pieces to it. Right?
There's all these differentelements. And I think that to
me, you know, some of thecreative researchers talk about

(17:29):
how there is, I can't rememberwhat the phrase is off the top
of my head, but it's somethingabout how there's always an
element of, unpredictability andcreativity.
It's like, you can't I wish Icould remember what it what the
phrase is, but creativeresearchers talk about this and

(17:49):
it makes tons of sense. Like, ifyou've ever been creative, at
all, you know that sometimes itworks, and other times it
doesn't work. And that and, youknow, I think craft, Christophe
Niemann, who's a greatillustrator, talks about how if
you're gonna be a professional,you've gotta be you've gotta
always know how to be good, butgreat is a thing you can't plan

(18:12):
for. So you can be goodconsistently, but great is a
thing that happens when you showup consistently, but it doesn't
happen on command. And so forme, most of my collaborations
with brands, you know, if I'mgetting paid to do illustration
in that capacity, most of thatstuff I'm pulling from my

(18:33):
personal work.
And so I think the answer tothat is the key is having a
creative practice, that it is apractice, that it is a habit. So
I make episodes every week. Imake, for a long time, I was
making episode art every weekfor years years. I have all
these different writingpractices. So I'm always making

(18:56):
stuff, and often, most of thatstuff is just stuff I own.
You know, literally, like thecopyright. I own it. Nobody's
licensing it. And so usually,when a client comes, I'm pulling
on something that felt greatthat I made, out of the 100
things I made that were good orokay. And be and I think that's

(19:16):
really key because I just thinkit's kind of impossible to, to
be great every time.
And I think you see this I kindof imagine this has to be a
little bit what, like a writer'sroom is all about where you put
10 people in there. They're allmaking stuff. All of them know
how to make good stuff, but, youknow, every week, a different

(19:39):
person accidentally got a greatthing. You know? So you just
you're just kinda like playingan odds game.
So, yeah, that that's how Ithink of it. Usually, I am
pulling from something that I'vemade recently for myself. Yeah.
And then sometimes sometimes itjust, like, kinda comes
together, and I'm makingsomething fresh. And, usually,

(20:00):
you know, the best thing is whenyou really don't care.
Like, it's true. Like, it'swhen, you know, it's not that
you don't care, if it's good.It's just I think the again, the
mind game thing is I really,really think that the pressure
is not the creative energy youwanna be in at the start. It's

(20:23):
not to say that you can'tperform under pressure. I think
there are ways in which it'suseful or it can be.
But I think most of the time,you need a part of the process
where you are detached from theoutcome and you're invested in
the process of, like, let's havefun. Let's make something. Let's

(20:43):
see how many of these things Ican make in a in, you know, and
just, like, it doesn't matterhow bad they are. Like, that
kind of mind game stuff.

Rob Lee (20:50):
Yeah. I I that's that's a really good distinction,
really good point. And, youknow, when I see and go going
back to just, you know, thatexample I was providing earlier
about being on a boat, and Ifind, you know, in the last
year, I've been able to teach,you know, podcasting to high
school students and collegestudents, which is

That's cool.

Rob Lee (21:09):
Something I wasn't expecting. It's very cool, very
rich, rewarding. And, and I andI've been getting across this
idea of the right tools for theright job, getting those reps
in, you know, that you'recomfortable and you're competent
in what you're you're doing.And, you know, and I found that,
you know, in talking about thatand speaking on, I had to
revisit it myself because I wascrafting out and carving out

(21:30):
time for all of the things thatI need to do. And I found that I
wasn't recording this regularly,and I was like, gotta get into
at least putting a mic on, atleast just doing something.
And I approach what I do here,and I always run into a
instances where someone in finearts will tell me what I do is
not important or creative or artor anything along those lines.

(21:52):
And but I approach it in thatway. I Yeah. I I had a
conversation with acinematographer and, no,
actually, it was a he's a he'she's, like, a visual artist, and
he was touching on, like, hispractice. And I'd mentioned
something about watching amovie, and it was, I think, Mo
Better Blues and watching DenzelWashington's character practice

(22:14):
and that whole thing.
I was just like, that's how Iview what I do. I have to put in
this time, whether it's workingon the questions, whether it's
listening to podcasts and justkinda taking from it, taking
notes. When I when I got on thetrain, a couple weeks ago to go
to New York for a convention, Iwas writing these questions. I
was researching you on the trainand taking that time just to

(22:37):
have my mind in the right spacebecause I noticed when I'm not
doing it in the right way and Ihaven't spent the right amount
of time on it, kinda sucks whenI get back to it. So it's just
like you gotta be in it, youknow, to what degree it is.
And it's like as you're you'resaying, sometimes it's like,
okay. I can be good. I can, youknow, freestyle. I can go off
with these reps, but there aresome instances where I could be

(22:57):
great, and I'm almost huntingfor those, searching for those
instances.

Oh, yeah. Yeah. Definitely. And I I love what
you said about the way you treatand think about podcasting.
First of all, screw anybody thatdoesn't think that podcasting's
art.
Like, I grew up in the Midwest,and I definitely, have spent
times there have been momentswhere I met fancy organizations
and, you know, important artschools and all that stuff. And

(23:24):
I I didn't I wasn't introducedto the idea of high art until I
was probably in my mid twenties.Like, I didn't even under I
didn't even know there was adistinction between high art and
low art. And I it's not I'm I'mnot a super, like, I don't like
thinking black and white, so I'mnot saying that there isn't
purpose for thinking in thoseterms. I think there probably is

(23:46):
some there's probably somebenefits.
There's probably some good stuffof why society has developed
that way. But I think thatthere's as many good reasons to
completely throw that in thetrash from time to time. And I I
personally think, that, youknow, my dad is an accountant.
He's he just retired, and he hehe was a business leader, and he

(24:09):
was extremely creative in hisstorytelling and metaphors and
ways that he moved throughoutthat job. Like, I and I don't
know where this quote comesfrom, but, it's this idea that
anything you treat as art willbe.
There's a quote I someone has tolook that up because I can't
remember who said it, but thatis I really think that that is

(24:32):
a, an extremely powerful thing.And I did the same thing with my
podcast too. Early on in my,like I said, I I did it. I've
been doing it for 10 years. Inthe first couple years, I was
juggling that and trying to getinto picture books.
Prior to that, I was mostly justdoing the client work that
you're talking about prior tothe podcast. And for a minute,

(24:55):
the podcast took off, and thepicture books were just brick
wall. Could not get in. Couldnot figure it out. And I just
had to I had to make a decision.
Like, I only have so much extratime. I'm gonna have to spend
the next couple years justthinking about the podcast, and
maybe I'll come back to picturebooks. And the only way I could
get my psyche to get on boardwith that was to be, like and

(25:16):
the podcast will be art too.That'll just be different kind
of art. It's just, you know,doesn't really matter.
And, actually, you know, for me,all of it is it's been really
useful to see that all of itstorytelling one way or another.
So my, I had an epiphany earlyon in my public speaking,

(25:38):
podcasting thing where I waslike, man, I'm so obsessed. I'm
more obsessed with the metaphorsand the stories that these
people are talking about onstage. Like, am I not an
illustrator? Like, I have anidentity crisis.
And, and then I heard a publicspeaker. It was probably a TED
talk or something. And thenbeing like, let me give you an
illustration. I'm like, it's thesame freaking bed, man. What in

(25:59):
the world?
And I just realized, like, oh,it is all storytelling. And so I
I think that's it's good to havethat, you know, to be really
romantic about the core and thencompletely unromantic about how
you apply it because it's reallymore about the time that you
find yourself in, you know, andwhat the needs are and what you

(26:20):
have available and whatever. Itdoesn't really matter if it's
sculpting or podcasting orwhatever.

Rob Lee (26:26):
So, I wanna I wanna move into this because it is
it's great that we kinda, like,backdoored into, you know, this
question or a couple ofquestions I have around Creative
Pep Talk. Yeah. So so whatbrought it about, like, as far
as, like I know that there is alot, you know, based on what
you've discussed, like, this isthis is for you. Like, this this
helps, you know. But, you know,was it filling a void?

(26:47):
Was it curiosity? Was it like,okay. I lost the bet, and I was
like, alright. You gotta put themics on.

Uh-huh. I wasn't losing a bet. I don't think
anybody was, inviting me to dothis. And, actually, I think
that, you know, kind of a coreidea of mine is the biggest
opportunity for creativity isthe the hardest creative problem
to solve, like, and the leastinspiring. Right?

(27:12):
Like, it's not hard to getcreative if Nike invites you to
do a 10 story mural. It's notlike that's like, oh, that's
play day. That's just having agood time. Like, you don't even
have to dig that deep for that.That's just having fun.
But what is really requires, alot of creativity is when

(27:33):
nobody's asking for this, nobodywants it, nobody knows that they
that it should exist, thecreativity that's required to
inspire yourself to do it andimagine doing it in such a way
where you'll be interested init, let alone anybody else,
like, that requires just atremendous amount of creativity.
And I think, you know, that'sthat was one of those

(27:54):
circumstances where nobody wasasking me to do a podcast. And
the podcast I wanted to do wasreally this intersection between
creativity and career and what Ithink of as creative practice.
And at that time, if you canbelieve it or not, that wasn't a
thing that people really weretalking about. I'm not saying it
didn't exist, but it wasn'tpopular to talk about.

(28:15):
In fact, I thought this mightget me ostracized from the
creative community, eventhinking about this. So it
really came from I did a talk,just a local, like, storytelling
thing that felt just it was justit just felt like the next right
thing to do. It just felt like,there's something something

(28:38):
happened. And, you know, it'sgreat to have, like, a partner
in crime where they can kindavalidate or invalidate your
experience, like, when it needsto be invalidated. And I and my
wife was there, Sophie, and Iwas, like, hey.
You know, I did this talk, and Itold this story. And when I
walked out, I thought, when Iwalked out, I thought, oh my

(29:01):
gosh. Like, I feel likesomething happened there. Like,
that was something differentthan anything I've experienced
creatively. And sometimes Iwould go through that experience
and ask Sophie, like, what doyou think?
Like, you know, I'd make apicture, and I'd be trying out a
different style of noses and belike, what do you this is next
level. Right? And she's like,okay. Now I don't even know

(29:22):
what's different. You know, thatthat right?
That happens. You need that. Youneed that. And so, but this
time, I came out, and I was,like, hey. I think, like, that
was something.
And she was, like, yeah. Thatwas something. That was I what
happened? That was different.And, like, I could just feel
that.
And so, yeah. I think it was aat the time, I was like, maybe

(29:43):
I'll just, like, pack upeverything else I do and just do
this full time. And, and I but Ihad kids, and I thought, I don't
think I'm allowed to do that. Ithink that's a bad idea. And so
I I instead of doing that, Itried to, you know, anytime I
try to anytime I come to acrossroads, I try to remember
that creativity is like acombinatorial thing.

(30:05):
And so anytime you're like, it'seither this or that, it's almost
always both. It's like, how canyou do both? And so I wanted to
tell stories, but I was anillustrator, and I just thought,
how can I do both of those? Andcreate a pep talk was, like, a
way of creating a portfolio oftalks to kinda gather gain trust

(30:29):
that this is something I coulddo. Yeah.
Yeah.

Rob Lee (30:33):
But I'm I'm, you know, I'm just it's really great
hearing that because, you know,as I'm in this sort of phase,
I'm being transparent here,which is not a thing that I do
too often. I'm okay. But, justjust sort of, like, I I'm
thinking through that and anddoing this this podcast, like,
you know, just hit 5 years acouple months ago and, you know,
800 plus episodes and reallyjust rocking and rolling with

(30:54):
it. And, you know, thinkingabout sort of what this next
season is and using sort of thiscuriosity, the anthropological
thing, the journalist thing. Andjust I'm into I'm into weird
things.
I like putting people on to toother things and kinda stretch
the idea and the boundaries ofwhat it looks like and what
creativity looks like, what artlooks like, and those sort of

(31:14):
intersections with communitybecause Yeah. You know, this
this pod came out of, you know,just kind of trying to prove
someone wrong who may have saidsomething about the city that I
didn't like. And and it'safforded me opportunities to
kinda revisit things that, as Isaid earlier, wanting to be an
illustrator, comic bookillustrator specifically. Yeah.

(31:35):
And, you know, being able torevisit through doing this,
being able to connect with folkslike you and gleam off of you,
being able to connect with alltypes of artists.
And then, like, I could do this,like, that you were describing
with, like, that TED talk. AndYeah. You know, I'm gonna be in
your neck of the woods, andlater in September, I'm going
to, Columbus Crossroads.

Oh, cool, man.

Rob Lee (31:56):
And that came from connecting to somebody on a
podcast.

That's awesome.

Rob Lee (32:00):
And they were like, will you come and speak on this
panel because obviously you canmoderate things, and I'm like,
oh, right, I do have thoseskills.

That's awesome.

Rob Lee (32:07):
It's it's great and not something that I thought I could
do. I thought it was just gonnabe desk job until the end, and
then, you know, it's just thatand not really satisfying, but
now it's like living multiplelifestyles and having, you know,
seeing those instances wherethey serve each other, where
sort of the IT and the the thedata background serving sort of

(32:28):
the administrative stuff was onemust Yeah. And sort of this side
of stuff helping with thestorytelling and what that data
looks like and helping tointerpret and tell a sexy story.

Yeah. Yeah. Definitely. And I think that
both and mindset is the creativemindset. And for me, one of the
things, I never shut up about onmy show is we've all heard this
idea of, like, you gotta have aniche.
You gotta have a niche, howeveryou wanna say it. I can say it
both ways

Rob Lee (32:57):
Niche, please.

As you can hear. And and and so you gotta you
yeah. You gotta specialize. Yougotta have a unique selling
point. Actually, I think that istrue.
However, I think that, I I thinkthat it can mean a lot of
different things. And usually orwhen I was starting out, I was
thinking that meant, in my groupof illustrators, I had to figure

(33:20):
out, like, what's my competitiveedge, man. Like, how do I, like,
draw better or cooler? Like,what you know? And you start
getting into these place whereyou're like like, what it really
is the quantifiable differencebetween this one and that one?
And it really becomes just kindof impossible to calculate or
or, embody. And then what Irealized later was it was much

(33:45):
easier for my unique sellingpoint to be the fact that I am
an illustrator in the world ofpodcasting. And so these, like,
these kinda hybrid scenarios, II also think about things like
Hamilton. I'm like, okay. Look.
I don't I can't critique, LinManuel's raps. What I can't

(34:08):
because I just don't know enoughabout it to be critically
minded. I like rap. You know, Igrew up on the stuff, but I
don't know, like, what's thedifference between a good rap
and a bad rap, really. I don'tknow.

Rob Lee (34:18):
So I

don't know. I don't know. Maybe he's the best
rapper. I don't know. But I'mguessing not.
I'm guessing that it's somethingabout this hybridization of
musical theater history, rap,and, you know, he's not doesn't
have to be the best rapper ofall time. He could be the best
rap theater guy of all time. Andnow you have this really

(34:39):
interesting thing. So I feellike your story illustrates that
well where all of a sudden, inthis niche of, comics, you're
the person that knows how to dothe panel. You're the one with
the history of that.
And even more so, like, oftenI'll talk to an illustrator who,
I'm trying to get anillustration. I'm like, okay.
Tell me about that. It's like,well, you know, I made this huge

(35:00):
mistake and got my master's as apsychologist and that I'm like,
okay. Hold on there, pal.
Hello. Can't you write articlesabout psychology and illustrate
them? And now you're writing thearticles and you're
illustrating. Now you're doingdoing both in the New York
Times. Like, do you know howinteresting that is?
Do that. Or I'll meetpolitician. I'm in a politician.
She's like, yeah. I want my,city council.

(35:22):
I'm like, on the board, but butI really just wanna do
illustration. I'm like, hello.Like, we need, like, political
experts in the illustrationspace and vice versa. Do you
know how many people in thepolitical space need
illustrators? Like, there's justreally interesting things you
can do if you can be creativeabout it.

Rob Lee (35:39):
Yeah. That that is such such a good point. That's such a
good point. So I got I got 2 2more real questions I wanna hit
you with, because I'm I'm verycurious about this because also
with what I was was touching onas far as, I guess, the the
point I was getting at was,like, looking at this arc of
interviews, the series as almosta portfolio of, like, I can do

(36:00):
this and at this volume and atthis these different people
because, you know, that first 10years of podcasting, I was just
doing it in my insular group offriends. We were just shooting a
breeze about movies and popculture and having a good time
doing it.
Sure. Kinda like built out thatbackground and got some, you
know, success with it and a lotof enjoyment. But I was like, I
wanna do something that's a bitmore close to the heart, and I

(36:21):
think that's serving folks. And,you know, it just happened to
coincide with, you know, rightbefore the pandemic. You know,
that's when I started this, andfolks were inside and, you know,
this that selling point of, comeon and share your story how you
how you wanna share it.
Be you. So that that initialquestion that I ask, you know, I
can do the introduction, butgiving the folks the opportunity

(36:41):
to do their introductions, youknow, I'll talk to folks that
look like me, that come fromdifferent groups and different
communities, and they're oftentold that you have to hit these
markers of who you are, and it'sabout more identity and kinda
checking a box versus somethingthat feels real. Mhmm. And I
think that's the point that I'vebeen kinda selling off of, and

(37:02):
that's the point that reallykinda matters to me.

Yeah. Yeah. That totally makes sense. And I think
it kinda goes also into yourthing of create your thing you
were saying about creating theportfolio of this thing where
I've found for me, you know,they're in a creative practice,
I think there's really, like, 3core components, and they are
the, the people discovering whatyou do. Yeah.

(37:28):
Then there's the building trustwith those people, and then
there's the sales. It's kindajust that's like the business
side of it. And I think thatmiddle bit, the trust, like you
said, it can be a lot of peoplethink of that means having the
awards, having the standards,hitting these markers, whatever.
But the people that are realabout what really matters, you

(37:53):
build trust with those people bydoing a good job. By them
listening to the show andthinking, oh, man.
This guy, like, knows what he'sdoing. He knows how to get the
right stuff. It doesn't it'snot, you know no. I'm not
knocking getting awards, like,getting a Webby or signal award
or whatever. Like, those thingscan be really useful, and and I
think there's a place for that.
But, ultimately, knowing thepeople that you're trying to

(38:16):
connect with and knowing how tohaving the taste to be able to
deliver the goods on that front,that's how that's what it's
really all about. And then whenyou're doing that in the
process, you're happy too

Rob Lee (38:27):
because

you're like, this is why I'm doing it. I'm doing
it to do the good stuff. Yeah.

Rob Lee (38:33):
I mean and and I I here's the funny thing about it.
Like I said, again, letting, youknow, Andy j cook over here.
You've answered my 2 questions,so thank you, sir. But, no. No.
No. It but it is it is thatthing where, you know,
inevitably and I'm gonna moveinto my rapid fire questions
because you you answered them.But, you know, the the thing
that I encounter more often thannot when those opportunities

(38:54):
present themselves and trying tojustify what I do and talk about
why it's valuable, you know,it's never, yeah, I've done
this, you know, and I'll putthese different markers there,
this many episodes, this manypeople, and so on. And I was
like, that doesn't matter asmuch to me, but when I'm walking
throughout the city and, like,yo, Rob, man. Good to see you,
bro.
Love the podcast. That is muchmore valuable than any grant,

(39:18):
any sponsor, any funding. It'sbeing able to do the thing like
this, you know. And I alwaysjoke about this podcast is blind
dating with creatives. Yeah.
And it's, you know, don't reallyknow anyone that you kinda go
through as you touched on. Yeah.I like the work. Let's let's do
it. I would love to be on.
And that's that's the thingthat, you know, is mostly
enriching for for in doing thispodcast and being able to keep

(39:40):
doing it too.

Yeah. And the other thing, you know, the other
thing that came up is don't beashamed to put your best foot
forward. I think you know, Iknow. What matters is the work,
the quality of it, whether ithas the sauce or it doesn't,
what you know, whatever thatmight mean to you. Yes.
But I also I have to remindmyself a lot because I'm so

(40:04):
obsessed with the essence of thething that, you know, I always
think you shouldn't judge a bookby its cover, but you should
also know that people do. That'swhat they do. So, you know, have
a good cover. So, you know, andin that email, like, yeah, drop
the awards and whatever. It itdoesn't have to mean anything to
you.
Doesn't have to. But justrealize, like, you know, if

(40:26):
that's what it takes to get inthe door, whatever. Play the
game because as long as you'recoming with the good stuff, then
it doesn't really matter. Youshouldn't just shoot yourself in
the foot just to prove a point.

Rob Lee (40:38):
You know? Yeah. That's a that's a really good point. A
really good point. And I'magain, like I said, when I
relisten to this, when I I mean,like, alright.
Let me listen to my own thing.It's just like use it's like
getting half my own supply alittle bit.

Yeah, dude. I say that all the time. That's a
dude, that's one of my things.It's getting high on your own
supply. That's the whole thing.
That's I'm telling you, like,take I have a whole rant about
taste because

Rob Lee (41:01):
Yeah.

The whole idea of, I think, creativity, the The
idea of, like, strikingsomething that's timely and
timeless, like, something thatfeels like, this is good. I
think it requires a sensitivity.You can't really quantify it.
You can only feel it. Yeah.
So, like, when you're doing it,you're having to taste as you
go. You're having to get high onyour own supply. You're having

(41:24):
to make the podcast that youwish existed. That's because you
can't quantify it more thanthat. You just know, like, oh,
that's I don't know.
It's something like this thing,you know, like, and that's how
that's a good stuff, like, thatyou're dude, I love it. I love
that you said that.

Rob Lee (41:37):
Love it. So let let me hit you with these rapid fire
questions.

Alright.

Rob Lee (41:41):
The first one is super hokey, but I gotta ask it. You
already know what it isprobably.

Oh, is it about my name?

Rob Lee (41:47):
Yeah. It is about your name. What does Andy enjoy on
his pizza?

Oh, man, dude. I mean, I can never get look. You
know what? Every time I eatpizza, every time, I'm like,
man, I really like pizza. And Ithink, what is wrong with you?
Of course, you do. You gave yoursafe selfless name. But, yeah.
Pizza I mean, I love I love a aa great cheese pizza. I love a

(42:15):
great pepperoni pizza.
If I'm going, like, fancy, Iwanna have, you know, the
Neapolitan kind of wood fired,and I want I want the grape
marinara, the tomato sauce. Iwant, mozzarella, And I want
goat cheese, jalapenos, probablypepperoni and maybe even hot

(42:36):
honey drizzle. Like, that'sYeah. That I mean, wow. I can't
and I might even put somearugula on it just to go all the
way.
I'm getting hungry.

Rob Lee (42:47):
So you're you're listening. The way you described
your pizza is very similar to,like so, yeah, my my arch is out
there. It's it's it's fully ondisplay. That pizza

maximal. That is, like, maximal flavor.

Rob Lee (43:00):
Yeah. I mean, as a as a person, my go to used to be a a,
it used to be kind of vegetableoriented, but, you know, it was
thin crust with, gorgonzola,broccoli, and, spinach, extra
cheese.

I can I can get into that for sure? That's what
I mean, my only thing is I like,a good blue cheese Yeah. I love.
But every once in a while, youget one, you're like, oh, this
is not okay. This is too far.
So it's a risk, but sometimes Itempt fate with it. You know?

Rob Lee (43:29):
It's a gamble.

It is.

Rob Lee (43:31):
But

it can be so good. You know? 100%.

Rob Lee (43:34):
Yeah. So I I I must ask this one because you touched on
it earlier. Which which turtle?Who who's who's your turtle?

Michelangelo. Has to be. I mean, I think that's
just I'd love to say Raff. I'dlove to have some other
dimension to myself, but Idon't, and it's just
Michelangelo. What about you?

Rob Lee (43:53):
It's it's funny. It was Leonardo. My brother's
Michelangelo. It was Leonardofor a very long time. And one
day he told me, he was like, youknow, you're just Raphael.
Right? I was like, what do youmean? And he was like,
everything is a bit. And it waslike and he would sing the song,
the theme song, and I was like,alright. It just said

That's hilarious. That's hilarious. My brother's
wrath. So, you know, I get it. Iget the dynamic.

Rob Lee (44:18):
I'm the older brother. So

Yeah. That's my older brother. So there you go.

Rob Lee (44:24):
This I'm I'm curious about where art is in their
habits. So, generally, for you,how does your day start? For me,
it's screaming, but how doesyour day

start? Screaming. Oh. Say screaming. Yeah.
You know, they say don't startwith a scream, but it's fine to
start with a screen. That'sfine. I yeah. That makes sense.
I for me, every day every day,this is this is one of the
weirdest I mean, I have plentyof weird qualities, but one of
them is, I every day, I startwith a bath.

(44:57):
Okay. Every day, I write. Mostof the stuff I write is in a
bath. I you know, my mom used totake loads of baths too, and I
think it's I've read that itactually increases your
dopamine, so it's probably anADHD thing like hot water. So I
just kinda, like, charge upthere like I'm a Dragon Ball z
character in, like, a timechamber just kinda going wild.

(45:20):
I'm just, like, trying to getall the dopamine that I can to
get to the day. And so I do thatevery day, and I like it. It's
kind of, it's like anintrospective space, and it
helps me kinda get my mind rightbefore I'm dealing with people
too. Yeah. And I read.
I usually read every day too alittle bit.

Rob Lee (45:40):
Yeah. The the the real thing is on the screen when I
wake up. The real thing is, I Iover the last year, I tried to
get up and do something activeand try to build up those wins.
You know? Like, you know, I'lldo, like, a 2, 2 and a half, 3
mile run-in the morning.

That's great.

Rob Lee (45:54):
No one's outside. So I'm Yeah. At a time where I can
really think, and it depends onwhat I'm listening to. Because
part of the the process for me,I'll have on either, you know,
some awesome Cleon or somethingalong those lines. Yeah.
My notepad on me, and I'm like,there's gonna be an insight that
I'm gonna pick up because mymind is clear before I have to
deal with people.

Love it.

Rob Lee (46:13):
So I I get it. Best well, actually, no. Worst worst
piece of advice you were evergiven?

Man, that's a great question. I'd I'd never
heard this one. Worst piece ofadvice I was ever given. Man,
I'm having a I don't dude, I'munpracticed for this. And I
think but I think it's a greatyou know, it kinda reminds me
of, and this is this is beat meboth wasting time so I can
figure out what my answer is.
And it's legit. It's legitbecause I think it's one of my

(46:44):
favorite things. There's apodcasting guide called Eric
Newsom who wrote a book called Ithink it's called make some
noise. It's something like that.He was I think he was a NPR guy.
Mhmm. And a great book. It's areally great book. And he one of
the things he talks about thisis one of my favorite this is
actually, like, how I if I'mstuck for a story

Rob Lee (47:06):
Sure.

This is how I will access an idea for a story is
this question. And he says, askpeople what do other blanks get
wrong. So people like you, some, like, what do other
illustrators get wrong? What dothey get wrong about
illustration? And that opens upa story arc because it's about,

(47:27):
like, a character going througha change.
Yeah. You know, going from thiswrong philosophical point of
view to a to a a better one. Soit kinda reminds me of that. You
know, I think that, yeah. I I Idon't know.
I can't pinpoint who said thisto me, but I do think I spent
the first from years as anadult, 18 to 25, with the with

(47:55):
the a a philosophical worldviewthat was handed to me that said,
who you are, like, what you are,what people are, they're a thing
to overcome. They're a thing torepress. They're a thing to
escape. They're they're a thingto run from. And I actually
genuinely, with all my heart,believe the opposite.

(48:17):
And, actually, I think that eventhe the research is in my favor
in terms of, like, psychology.Like, there is so much power in
believing that you're notsomething to overcome, but
something to cultivate. That thethings that are not working for
you, that's not something that'swrong with you per se. It's

(48:39):
something about, oh, you haven'tfigured out the right way to
channel that, or the environmentyou're in is making it
challenging to be you. You know,for instance, like, we're not
bad because we are obsessed withsugar.
Yeah. The we're it we're in abad scenario where we evolved to
gorge on sugar because it was sorare. Yeah. You know what I

(48:59):
mean? And so it's not anythingwrong with us.
It's that, oh, we haven'tfigured out how to cultivate who
we are in this environment. So Ithink for me, especially as an
artist, it's kind of the worstadvice you could give them is,
you need to, like, escape whoyou are. You need to be
something else, because, youknow, that's all you got as an

(49:20):
artist is is your identity. Andit's gonna have, and I say it
this way, in one of my podcastseries, in one of the in some of
the talks I give, you know, artis self expression. You're never
gonna make what you you're nevergonna make art that you love if
you hate the thing that it's anexpression of, which is
yourself.

Rob Lee (49:38):
Yeah.

Right? You can't make art. You love and hate
yourself. And so, yeah. I thinkthat that's probably and I think
a lot of people go through lifebelieving that and also advising
people about this is how you,you know, pull yourself up and,
you know, defeat self.
Yeah. I don't I don't buy that.

Rob Lee (49:58):
That's that's good. And I it's it's relatable and, you
know, in this nearly 800 it'scoming up on 800 interviews, you
know, I've heard differentpieces of people getting sort of
yeah. You know, you just gottado what everyone else is doing,
and, you know, you know, youhave to get rid of what makes
you unique and all of thatstuff. And it's just like, no.
No.
No. I just shake I just shake mybald head. No. But thank you.

(50:21):
That is that's that's beautiful,and I think that's where we
could we can close out on sortof the the podcast.
So there's 2 things I wanna doin these final moments. 1 Okay.
I wanna thank you for coming onand spending some time with me.
This has been a true treat.Definitely

for having me.

Rob Lee (50:37):
Yeah. I really appreciate it. And and 2, I
wanna invite and encourage youto tell the folks where to check
you out, social media, website,podcast, all that good stuff,
please.

Yeah. Go check out the Creative Pep Talk podcast.
Been doing that for 10 years andand still going, I think,
strong. And, also, you can findme on Instagram, Andy J Pizza,
and I'm also on Substack.

Rob Lee (50:57):
So there you have it, folks. I want to again thank
Andy J Pizza for coming on tothe podcast and spending some
time with me. And I'm Rob Leesaying that there's art, culture
and community in and around yourneck of the woods. You just got
to look for it.

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#92 – Andy J. Pizza – Can Turning Up the Volume Make Creativity Louder?

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}#92 – Andy J. Pizza – Can Turning Up the Volume Make Creativity Louder?