November 22, 2024 • 58 mins
Passionate soccer fan and esteemed academic, Dr. Gülşha Kemer, joins us to share her journey through the world of academia and her love for the Turkish soccer team, Beşiktaş. Her insights shine a light on the importance of informal interactions in building strong professional relationships, akin to a "marriage" among colleagues. In this engaging conversation, we explore how seemingly simple activities like group chats and shared hobbies, such as Dungeons & Dragons, can create a supportive and collaborative atmosphere within academic settings.
Have you ever felt like an imposter in your academic or professional role? In our second chapter, we tackle this common experience head-on, particularly in the context of doctoral supervision. Both students and supervisors often grapple with the pressure to appear knowledgeable, but Dr. Kemer emphasizes the power of vulnerability and open-mindedness as tools for growth. By embracing the uncertainties of academia, we learn how imposter syndrome can be transformed from a barrier into a motivator for continuous development and learning.
Navigating the cultural dynamics and systemic challenges within academic institutions can be a daunting task. Through personal anecdotes, we discuss the vital need for alignment between personal and professional values, and the role of strong leadership in fostering a healthy faculty culture. We also explore the complexities of faculty responsibilities, balancing the demands of teaching, research, and service with personal boundaries. This episode encourages educators to model professional growth for students by prioritizing tasks and navigating the unique pressures faced by counselor educators, ultimately promoting a holistic approach to personal and professional development.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
well, hey, man geez, are you recording this?
I?
Speaker 3 (00:17):
started recording, yeah I got I got a good I got a
good 30 minutes because i'reinterviewing an associate
professor today at like 1030.
Speaker 1 (00:28):
So we're going to go there.
Good luck with the search.
Yeah, a lot of work.
Speaker 3 (00:32):
Yeah, the searches are always like hit and miss,
sometimes Like they look reallygreat on paper and then you do
an interview and it's like, oh,okay, I don't think I want to
spend the rest of my career nextdoor to you.
Speaker 2 (00:45):
You're marrying somebody.
You're marrying somebody.
There's no way to get around it.
Speaker 1 (00:50):
That's a great way of putting it into words, right?
We see?
Our colleagues, more than wesee our partners and our kids.
We spend quite a bit of timewith our colleagues at work.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
Yeah man.
Speaker 1 (01:02):
I mean, we're at a different era now.
It's not as much as we used to,but we communicate with them a
lot more.
You definitely want somebodywho is going to be collegial.
Speaker 3 (01:12):
I feel like I'm always in a group chat with my
faculty about just, you know,random.
You know what are we doing forthe holiday potluck, all the way
to oh that's hey the powerturned off in the building so
nobody come in today.
You know just, uh.
You know how was football thisweekend.
You know how was.
(01:32):
How was your kid soccer like?
We just have a group chat wherelike that's what we talk about.
Speaker 1 (01:36):
That's so sweet we got a good thing.
Speaker 3 (01:38):
We got a good thing going over here.
You know, I send uh kidpictures and my.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
My faculty is weird.
We're in a D&D campaign,dungeons and Dragons campaign
together.
So my faculty, we're weird,it's fun, though it's so fun.
You know that's not weird,that's just we fought.
What do we?
We fought we fought some demonstogether, that's some tree
creatures.
(02:04):
The other day as a faculty youknow, throwing spells.
Speaker 1 (02:12):
Well, you know, I love that you're talking about
that and you both are telling me, like you know, that's how it
should be.
Speaker 2 (02:19):
I think that's how it should be.
I think that's how it should be.
Speaker 1 (02:22):
Constantly talking about counseling, counselor ed
training, counselors trainingsupervisors, doing research, and
you know it gets old after awhile, I know man, it really
does All right.
Speaker 2 (02:34):
Well, should we officially start, julius, you
want to officially welcome them?
Speaker 3 (02:38):
Yeah, how about you?
Speaker 2 (02:39):
take it away man.
Okay, well, listeners, welcomeback Another podcast.
I don't know what number thisis 60, 55.
I'm happy to be here.
We, we have a guest, and to saya guest is it doesn't capture
the, the influence I feel likethis person has on my lived
(03:02):
experience, and vicariouslythrough yours, julius, because I
just won't shut up about her.
You know, uh, I've been sayingthis for years, her and her wife
I chaired her wife'sdissertation and, uh, we've just
been doing life together forquite some years, man, and so,
um, we have a guest, gushaKimmer.
(03:24):
Dr Gusha Kimmer.
Look, I don't know how you wantto introduce yourself, gusha,
but you have the floor.
Speaker 1 (03:34):
What do you want them to know about you, man?
I mean, you know what?
I can take a long route, shortroute and, like the vibe of our
conversations, I can come fromboth personal and professional
angles.
Speaker 2 (03:48):
Let's do personal.
Okay, if you were going to sayone thing about yourself that
you feel like students,professional world, personal
friends need to know that's like.
This is you.
Speaker 1 (04:06):
What is it?
Well, I'm a big soccer fan.
So like we wouldn't call itsoccer in Europe, in Turkey we
would call it football.
So I think, that's somethingpeople rarely know.
Speaker 2 (04:20):
That is true.
I don't think people know thatenough.
Speaker 1 (04:21):
That is true, I don't think people know that enough
and I try to catch my favoriteteam's games as much as I can
with the time difference andeverything in Turkey and they
sometimes play in.
Speaker 2 (04:33):
Europe.
Who's your favorite?
Speaker 1 (04:34):
team that's games.
So it is Beşiktaş out of Turkey.
Speaker 3 (04:38):
Yeah, yeah, I think me and Jude are probably more
familiar with the Turkish league, probably so.
Speaker 1 (04:46):
I know you do, I know , I know you do, I know you do
and you know, I think, thecommon thing if I recall
correctly, we actually recruiteda young Turkish player from
Arsenal.
Speaker 2 (05:04):
That I know you both know, at least I know Jude loves
Arsenal.
I know that place.
Wow, here you go.
Speaker 1 (05:12):
And so he played for us for a long time, like Ozan Öz
Yakup.
He was really young, but it wasin your young team, if I'm not
mistaken.
And then he went to Netherlandsfor a few years and he got
retired this year.
So he's a sucker.
Speaker 2 (05:31):
I think I did see that.
Yeah, Wow, man.
Well, that's awesome, man.
Well, look, we don't reallyhave an agenda.
We never do.
And I told you is that weusually like when Gush and I
usually talk, we go from everypossible angle, man.
But, I did have a question,right.
(05:52):
Yes, because your research lineis on supervision, right?
I feel like a pretty softballquestion that may take three
hours to answer.
Speaker 1 (06:02):
It's like and you know me, I can't speak for hours
about that.
Speaker 2 (06:06):
What makes a good supervisor For your research?
I guess, just given some of thestuff that you've researched,
some stuff that you found, whatmakes a good supervisor?
Speaker 1 (06:16):
I think the very first thing come to me is a
reflective supervisor Is a goodsupervisor Like reflecting on
their practice supervisor is agood supervisor like reflecting
on their practice and like tryto come from different angles,
of being empathic with thesupervisee as much as they are
empathic with the client andalso being empathic with
themselves because, like, it isso easy to set ourselves in
(06:41):
certain standards, particularlysince supervision is an
evaluative process and we needto put our gatekeeping hats in
the running background.
Sometimes things can get reallytask oriented and it needs to
happen this way, and sometimeswe need to hold the tension in
(07:03):
supervision and it's more of aprocess piece.
So like if I, as a supervisor,reflect into those moments and
like hold the space for mysupervisee and help them reflect
and model that reflections tothem and remember that I am a
human being too, I think thatmakes a good supervisor.
Speaker 3 (07:25):
Yeah, I love that.
That idea of like I am a humantoo, you know, I think sometimes
gets.
There's so much of a powerdynamic that exists within the
supervisor relationship and Idon't know, man, when I was a
student I thought my supervisorwas a magician.
Sometimes was a magician,sometimes because some, because
(07:48):
there wasn't really thatreflective process of, hey, this
is, this was my listen, thiswas my experience when I was at
your level of you know, clinicalexperience and this is what it
was like for me there was nolike humanizing the aspect of
like the process, so I would bejust, you know, doing idiotic
first year.
you know, uh, clinician stuff,you know, like trying to be too
(08:11):
solution focused and trying tofind the answer, trying to help
you know and my supervisor wouldsay something like you know,
like a combination of three orfour words that really helped
the client and I was like howdid you know to say that?
Like how did you even know thatthat would work?
You know how did you know?
Speaker 1 (08:33):
And it's amazing that you are mentioning that.
You know it is a developmentalprocess to supervise supervisors
in our doctoral program.
They usually feel like at thebeginning of their practice they
need to know everything andthey need to be this expert to
have answers to everything.
(08:54):
And even I don't have answersto everything after doing this
quite some time, and by no meansI'm trying to say I'm at a
different place than they are.
I have been doing it sometime.
That's the reason why I'msaying it's like there are.
Sometimes I really need to goand consult with my colleagues
and sometimes I need to actuallyacknowledge that.
(09:15):
You know what?
In the session they said thisand it dropped me in the wrong
way.
And I like ready to like bringout my clothes and everything,
but again, like it's all thosethings you mentioned, it happens
for supervisors too.
And acknowledging that we arein our own journey, in our
(09:39):
developmental process and thereis no end to it, and that's
another piece in the same line.
Yeah, um of like beingreflective, is that that's a
good supervisor to me?
Speaker 2 (09:50):
I know it's, it's scary, though, like I do, I will
admit that, like you know, Idon't know about you guys, but
when you're, when you're a docstudent, or maybe even in that
first time supervising, like youalmost feel.
Like you almost feel like yourrelationship with the, with the
supervisee, is not enough, right, like, like you, you know what.
(10:15):
It's actually a parallelprocess, I think, in session, as
I'm thinking about our students, our students who, starting
practicum next semester, areseeing their first clients this
week, yeah, and so they're likedoing their intakes.
You know, we go to break andthen they come back, and we've
been teaching these students fortwo years, right Before they
(10:37):
see their first client, andwe've been pouring into them
like, hey, relationship is key,build a strong relationship.
Hey, build a strong relationship.
Hey, build a strongrelationship.
Hey, don't forget about therelationship.
Offer genuineness, unkindnessof high regard.
And they get it.
And then you go to that firstsession and you want to be the
smartest person in the roombecause you you don't want
(11:00):
something as flimsy as love.
To like, hold the space youwant, like, if I could just sit
you on a 10 books and I cantrust that I have all of the
knowledge you need, then I'll bea good therapist.
It's like you just and that'sthe same thing for supervision
(11:22):
Like you get your firstsupervisee and you just don't
want to be dumb, you know.
You just don't want them tolook at you like, well, I got
the short end of the stick, youknow what?
Speaker 3 (11:35):
PhD.
I don't believe you.
I taught a multicultural class.
Well, I teach multiculturalevery Tuesdays, right, and at
the end of class yesterday, likeI, the last student, left the
room and it's like a littleboardroom right, there's like I
don't know eight students in theclass.
All the students left the roomand man, I mean I was getting
(11:57):
hit with all kinds of questions,right, and like I knew the
answers to it, but I was alittle like I mean, that's I'm
just kind of making this up, butlike it does come from
somewhere, you know.
Speaker 2 (12:08):
So, man, I've read some stuff you know.
Speaker 3 (12:11):
So, man, the students left, and it was quiet and it
was just me, and I just turnedoff my laptop and I I thought to
myself whoo, you made itanother day, another day not
being found out, another daywhere you appear like you're the
professor of record on thiscourse.
(12:32):
One of these days, though,they're going to find you out
one of these days they're goingto be like oh, oh he, he knows
nothing, oh he oh where's,where's your parents, where's
the department head?
Speaker 1 (12:50):
I love that Because, like you know, I think we all
have that Like, we all feel likeimposters to a degree and none
of us acknowledge it.
We only acknowledge it toourselves if we are reflective
enough.
Acknowledge it, we onlyacknowledge it to ourselves if
we are reflective enough.
But I, like you know, I believethat we all need to just
(13:11):
embrace it Like there is nothing.
And I remember in one of theconferences I attended, a
session, they were talking aboutimposter syndrome, how to
tackle with it, and, like youknow, basically the conversation
sounded like we need to get ridof it, yeah.
And then I was like, why are wegetting rid of it?
It is a beautiful thing to have, yeah, man, that keeps us going
(13:31):
, that keeps us humble,hopefully, and it helps us to
keep recognizing that we need tolearn and keep growing.
Because, like, if I don't havethat mindset that I need to keep
knowing things and oh my gosh,I'm really lack in this area and
I know what I know and I knowthere are things I don't know I
(13:52):
think that this is kind ofproblematic.
I know, man, I know I don'tknow.
I love that you are saying thatbecause I'm right there with
you 100%.
Speaker 2 (14:02):
Well, there's some students.
Speaker 3 (14:03):
Just real quick.
There's some students who, insupervision they'll come in with
this idea of I have tocompletely hide the idea of me
being anything other than anexpert Right or being anything
(14:28):
other than a good counselor.
So they they scour their likeyou know, clinical videos and
they're like what can I show,what can I present in
supervision?
That's going to make me appearlike I kind of need some help,
but also not too much of ahorrible therapist.
So they like try to find thismiddle ground of, like they can
give me feedback on this, butI'm not showing them that shit,
like the stuff that I did like30, 30 minutes prior to this
(14:49):
video starting, was horrible.
Speaker 2 (14:52):
I'm not showing that, you know, but I'll, I'll give
them this, you know, I'll givethem this little bit but it's a,
it's a cultural thing to me,right, like, and here's what I
mean Like, like, if we as afaculty and this is where Gusha
and I start talking for days-right, oh, yeah, like if, if, if
(15:14):
, as a faculty you aren'treflective and and you do, you,
you as a as a faculty unitno-transcript, and there's
(16:12):
something in there to say aboutsafety and vulnerability, and
how do you structure a programto be able to navigate that and
manage that and cultivate that,not just in class but in
one-on-one sessions?
You know individual sessionsand it's just hard, man, because
I see students who come fromother programs.
It's almost like they come withlike education hurt oh know
where, like you know what I mean, like sometimes we'll get,
because you know, k-crap.
We accept about 12 credits.
Speaker 3 (16:32):
I don't know what you guys's programs do, but it's
about 12 credits, you know jesusrinky dinky university probably
accepts 24 before they uh weare a Research 1 institution.
Thank you very much.
Speaker 2 (16:49):
Research is like a lowercase r1.
It's r1 with an asterisk We'llsee.
You know, sometimes G is thestudents who graduate and then
move to Austin and so Isupervise them.
When they come to Austin, comehere, let me help you.
That's the first year, we'llsee, we'll see.
But anyway, yeah, you know,sometimes you get students who
(17:13):
they come in and they havespelled 12, you know 12 credits
or 12 hours at anotheruniversity.
And man, they come in just likehurt man, just like kind of
like a deer.
You know like they're in class,just like looking man, just
like kind of like a deer.
You know like they're in class,just like looking around.
You know like not talking.
You know what I mean like notbeing vulnerable, you know, and
(17:34):
um, yeah, there's just.
I know not all programs arecreated equal, but damn like it
just feels like let me just.
Speaker 3 (17:42):
Let me just jump in because it's very similar to my
experience as a faculty member,because I know y'all have been
at you guys' institutions for awhile, right.
Speaker 2 (17:54):
Yeah, how long have you been at ODU?
Speaker 1 (17:57):
Ten years now.
Speaker 2 (17:58):
Ten years.
Yeah, I'm about six, startingmy seventh, I am.
Speaker 3 (18:04):
About six starting my seventh.
I am four months into being atthe University of.
Speaker 1 (18:12):
Louisiana Jesus can't keep a job.
He can't, he can't keep a job.
Speaker 2 (18:16):
Our jobs can't keep him.
Let's say that Maybe that's it.
That might be just anexpression.
He's the problem.
He's the problem.
He's the problem.
Speaker 3 (18:25):
He's the problem After the third institution.
Speaker 2 (18:27):
It's like maybe.
Speaker 3 (18:28):
I need to look in the mirror and maybe it is.
Speaker 2 (18:31):
You know, all of those universities are still
standing.
There's only one person.
Speaker 1 (18:37):
But I know you are trying to say something.
Julius, you see how Jude getsin the way Jude's point is very
important, like you know theculture piece like this
prevalent culture across theseinstitutions and we can talk
about that hours and like you,know how those culture is rested
on certain values, that is notserving.
Speaker 3 (18:59):
That's what I'm getting at.
Speaker 1 (19:00):
Neither student population nor faculty
population.
Speaker 3 (19:04):
That's what I'm getting at.
Neither student population norfaculty.
All right, fine, it's okay,that's what I'm getting at,
because I am somebody who I needif the culture is unhealthy, I
just can't stay there Like Ican't stand it.
Speaker 2 (19:15):
That's why he has been kind of job hopping Because
.
I think, julius, for you you'relike man.
My sense of self and my selfand and my values will not budge
Like I will find a universitythat aligns with my teaching.
Speaker 3 (19:30):
Yeah, and I, and I feel like you know, university
of Louisiana is the first andonly university where I've
landed here and it's like, oh,okay, like this aligns with.
This aligns with not only who Iam as a professor, but like it
aligns with who I am as a fatherand a husband.
And you know the, you know it's, you know seven minutes away
(19:53):
from my house, you know it'sit's just you know it's, my kids
were running around the hallsthe other day, you know, just,
it's just.
It's a really good feeling, youknow.
But I've gone through a lot ofunhealthy faculty and staff
situations, so I'm I'm curiouswhat do y'all think are like the
(20:15):
fundamental pieces to creatinglike a healthy faculty, a
healthy culture what makes agood, what makes a good program?
Speaker 2 (20:23):
dream what makes a good program?
Dreamless.
Money doesn't matter.
University's on board.
You got everything you need.
You don't have to go begging toyour dean for faculty lives.
Speaker 3 (20:34):
Please can we just get some post-it notes.
Please can we just get some?
Speaker 1 (20:40):
On-campus clinic.
Yes, definitely, definitelymake.
Yes, definitely, definitely.
I mean, like you know I thinkthe the first what you said,
jude the culture like facultybeing respectful of each other
and building certain criteriatogether and like having a
reasonable basis for differentcriteria.
(21:00):
Yeah, like I'm going to talkabout the faculty promotion and
all those pieces.
Like you know, what are wetalking it?
What are we looking at?
Why are we looking at thosethings?
Speaker 2 (21:10):
reasonable.
Speaker 1 (21:11):
That's the key word here, yep reasonable in a sense
that it serves each person withwithin their own trajectory.
And like trying to puteverybody on the same standard.
We are not all coming fromsimilar backgrounds and like
when I say backgrounds, we cantalk about a wide range of
(21:33):
backgrounds and we did not havethe same experiences.
Like some of us is a lot moreprivileged than the other people
to be cultured into academicexcellence.
Speaker 3 (21:47):
I'm using air quotes because that is usually in all
institutions' websites right,yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (21:54):
So like how we are actually redefining some of
those pieces and making surethat people still do what they
want to do and keep makingimpact, and impact can look
differently in my opinion.
Yeah, I love that.
Speaker 2 (22:08):
I love that, but that takes a whole university that
to to kind of commit to whatwe're trying to do.
You know, and not like when Isay we, I mean we as a
counseling program, because I dothink that there's a tension
between between, maybe likeadministration or yeah, I'll
(22:30):
just say administration on thewhole, you know, and maybe this
full understanding of what itmeans to train counselors and
just how different of a trainingor educational experience it is
compared to training architects, right?
Speaker 3 (22:48):
You know, to training even artists.
Speaker 2 (22:51):
You know what I mean.
It's just different, likethere's layers to it and it's
just.
You know what I mean and youcan't explain it to them.
Speaker 1 (23:03):
Yeah, you know, know what I mean.
Um, and you, you can't explainit to them.
Yeah, you know.
You even make me think, likeyou know, at the administrative
level, there should be moreeffort to be inclusive, this
discipline wise, so that, likeyou, have somebody who is
representing your unit in theadministrative level.
Let's just speak for college.
(23:24):
They know what you are doing,but they also need to be working
with the department or theprogram who they are
representing.
But we can go back and say thatis it possible to create that
cohesion within your own faculty, that cohesion within your own
(23:48):
faculty?
And it's actually that's wherewe may have most influence and
um control over even that ischallenging but, like going back
to your question, what makes alike cohesive place?
like?
I wish we did not have a lot ofadministrative stuff to do, so
that we would be more familiarwith each other's work and we
(24:11):
knew each other more, bothpersonally and professionally,
and have more collaboration onhow to structure things, because
it is so easy to work in ourown silos without as a unit.
But again, I'm going to go backand put it on the systems.
(24:33):
I don't want to put it on theindividuals, because systems
dictate certain things and thisis a systemic issue than
individual issue yeah um well,one thing that would make it a
good well to your.
To your point like the.
Speaker 3 (24:49):
The thing that I appreciate the most about the
faculty that I'm with now is thesystem that we live within,
like the system that our programchair has built, because this
is our one and only programchair.
Like, he's been the programchair for you know 20 something
years.
He built the, he built theprogram at the university, and
(25:09):
so there's like, yes, there isthis unique balance of, like,
you know, we're going tosupervise and we're going to
research and we're going to, youknow, help manage the clinic
and we're going to teach, butalso we're going to have like a
halloween party, um, at aparticular professor's house,
like their personal house, rightwhen, like you know, alumni is
(25:30):
going to come and gather at thishouse.
At this party, there's going tobe like a, you know, a luncheon
or a brunch at another faculty'shouse where, like, the
graduating students are going tocome and we're going to talk
about, yes, we're going to eatand we're going to drink, and
we're going to talk about, yes,we're going to eat and we're
going to drink and we're goingto laugh, but we're also going
to talk about.
This is how you get ready forlike, a licensure in the state.
You know, there's like athere's a holiday end of
(25:54):
semester gumbo potluck at likethe department heads house where
we all bring our like, ourpartners and our dogs and our
kids and we all hang out.
That system allows us to managethe tension of disagreements in
faculty meetings or when we'remisaligned when it comes to the
(26:20):
direction of a course or thedirection of a particular
student.
You know, like those type thatconnection allows us to
withstand that tension thatexists in like you know almost
everybody's faculty.
Speaker 1 (26:34):
Isn't it bringing us back to like being human and
having relationships first sothat we can actually do the hard
work, like the parallel processyou were talking about?
Jude is like everywhere, likeyou know, unless I have good
modeling to my students how tobe human with my faculty, with
my students, and be able to holdthe space when difficult
(26:57):
discussions and conversationshappen um address them directly
without actually going to otherplaces before I try to resolve
some of those challenges, whatwe are talking about are
actually, in every level of whatwe are doing, the relationship
(27:18):
and being able to beappropriately vulnerable with
each other and holding the spaceand remembering that we are all
human beings and that peace isimportant to support each other.
And like holding the space andremembering that we are all
human beings and that that peaceis important to support each
other, because we thought thatwe are doing.
We are building a house.
Actually this was a metaphorand I really liked in one of my
(27:40):
students dissertations we arebuilding a house, but all the
nails are like problematic, likeyou know yeah, or they are not
there.
Speaker 2 (27:51):
They're not, they don't have doors yeah house is
bound to collapse.
They're made out of rubber.
Yeah, I mean, that's true, man,and you feel it.
Students feel that.
You know like.
Students are like kids in thesense that they know something
is up.
They may not feel the powerthat they can say it, but they
(28:13):
know something is up and they'remost likely responding to it.
You know like and you can.
You can see it in their work.
You can see it in thecommunity's relationship to the
students.
You know like.
That's one of the things like.
I think one of the things that Ilike about our program that I
think makes a program reallygood is having this connection
(28:35):
to the community, like you knowwho you're training your
students to work with.
You know like either whetherthat's clinicians or clients.
You know like understanding theclientele that you're training
your students for, so that yourprogram becomes maybe a little
(28:56):
bit more what's the right way toput it?
Your program becomes a littlebit more like a community
counseling program, you know,and not like a counseling
program at large, but like we'retraining our students to work
in the communities around us.
Speaker 3 (29:17):
Yeah, the program becomes a fixture of the
community it lives within.
The program becomes a fixtureof the community.
Speaker 2 (29:24):
It lives within Exactly and it's intertwined
into it, you know, and not justin like a superficial way, like
we have relationships withclinics in the area, but like
the faculty is in and amongstthe people.
You know we're not like on thisin this ivory tower.
You know like tenuredexcellence and you only come to
(29:45):
us whenever you want knowledge.
You know like now we're in thestreets and we're talking to
people, then we're, you know, atthe houses of the homeless
cookouts and we're all.
You know what I mean and I knownot every program can be that
way, but there's this likeintentionality that I think
(30:06):
where there's a connection thistown and gown connection.
Speaker 3 (30:14):
Yeah, you know what I mean.
That's where you like I don't,I don't, I don't know if we want
to go down this tangent and Iknow I gotta, I gotta jump off
anyway, but that I worked at anonline university for years and
I'm you know the university wasgreat and the program was great,
but like that's one thing thatI missed from like the
difference between like a brickand mortar on the ground type of
(30:35):
program and an online programis that hey man, there's an open
house at tree of LifeCounseling Center here in the
community and it's an open house.
So we need like a facultymember or two to like just show
up to be a representative forthe program.
Some of our students work atTree of Life and some of our
(30:56):
students would love to see usthere.
You know and like, see ussupport that, and the community
wants to see the university andthe program kind of support
what's going on in it.
You know and like see ussupport that and the community
wants to see the university andthe program kind of support
what's going on in it.
You know, like an online program, you don't really get that
community-based, participatorytype of relationship building.
You know it's not, it's not,it's just it's not bad, it just
(31:16):
is what it is.
And there's some programs whoare embedded within the
community that just like don'tshow up, for you know the
clinics that their students arehoused in for practicum and
internship, you know they justlike they're this like external.
You know site that the programdoesn't touch, you know it.
(31:37):
I think it's like superimportant for university faculty
to like show up to the ribboncutting ceremonies at a clinic
or to show up to like the schoolboard meetings, because we have
a graduate student who's in adual track of clinical mental
health and school counseling,who's doing some like social
advocacy.
(31:58):
You know like to show up tothose things for students.
Speaker 2 (32:01):
You know, I wanted to feel.
I wanted to feel like if ourprogram didn't exist, this
community would really be up aCreek.
That's how I want it.
Speaker 3 (32:13):
I wanted to feel like I think you love the
self-importance that you feel.
You see what I have to dealwith.
You love a little pat on theback.
You want to be.
Speaker 2 (32:24):
You want to be don't you have a meeting to go to you?
Speaker 1 (32:27):
are definitely brothers.
I love that.
Speaker 2 (32:30):
You want to be needed .
I think you spilled some grapesall over your jacket, by the
way.
Speaker 3 (32:37):
Let's unpack that.
You want to be needed.
Leave us alone.
Gosh, leave, go Bye.
Okay, all right.
All pack that you.
You want to be needed, leave usalone, okay, all right.
All right, I gotta jump becauseI gotta go interview somebody
else, but, man, you should.
This has not, this has not tobe the light like we have to do
this again yeah, we're gonnayeah y'all, yeah, yeah y'all
(32:57):
keep talking, i'll'll jump off,definitely Just let me know.
Speaker 2 (32:59):
Thank you uh, no, okay, so I, I like that, that
(34:02):
idea right of like, like a.
I want, I want a program to beso influential in the
communities that they're in thatif the program was gone, the
universe, I mean the communitywould struggle, you know, they
would feel it you know, I meanthat's a perfect, perfect way of
(34:22):
like thinking, really like thatshows how much of an impact you
are making and, like you know,that makes we try yeah, we try,
and we try to train our studentsto do the same thing.
You know what I mean, um, butyou know, man, we so, we've,
we've sat in each other'soffices crying about students.
Yes, we did, we've, we didwe've, like, man, how long and I
(34:49):
know we've talked about thisbefore but like, how, um, how do
you orientate yourself towardstraining a student?
Right, and that's a complicatedquestion.
But like, are you, are youthinking I am training a
(35:13):
technician?
Are you thinking I am traininga clinician?
Are you thinking I'm training aresearcher?
Because you guys have masterstudents and doc students and I
know that like shifts, you know,but like what do you?
what are you focused on?
Speaker 1 (35:31):
I guess the technical terminology and I'm going to
use both of them.
That are two ways of saying it.
Um, and I believe in both.
Like you know they, they callit scientist, practitioner and
also practitioner scientistscientist yeah, um, it is a lot
more complex than just think.
(35:51):
One aspect, because the type ofwork we do or our profession,
particularly at the doctorallevel, when you work with
doctoral students, lots ofdifferent hats come into the
picture.
And kind of going back to whatwe have been talking about, like
I was going to say I'm going totie it to what we were talking
(36:14):
about right before Julius left.
Students might look like theydon't have lots of say in these
cultures or communities.
I just don't agree with thatpiece because they do have a lot
of say Because, like you know,they are a very critical
(36:37):
stakeholder.
Just like you said, removestudents.
We don't mean anything if youask me yeah, man, yeah, just
like you said, remove students.
We don't mean anything if youask me yeah, man, yeah, like we
are in an education, umeducational setting without
students, like research is justdry and like that's my opinion,
again, like you, know as acounselor, educator.
(36:59):
So, like going back to yourquestion, I believe in coming
from all angles.
Like you know, whatever I'mworking with them, if I'm
teaching, for example, doctorallevel research class but it is
not just research we are talkingabout over here.
Like you know, I need to tapinto their clinical mindset.
(37:19):
I need to tap into their, like,teaching mindset.
I need to tap into theirclinical mindset.
I need to tap into theirteaching mindset.
I need to tap into theiradvocate mindset so that they
can think about what they areconceptualizing from different
angles, because what we do is alot more complex than these.
(37:40):
Are the relationships betweenthese two variables, or, like,
when you put these together.
This leads to this.
Those are important to know too.
I just believe that what we dois a lot more nuanced than that
I agree, man.
Speaker 2 (37:55):
Yeah, it's.
It's interesting because Ithink you and I both teach the
research classes.
You teach a research class, Iteach their research classes.
Speaker 3 (38:00):
You teach a research class.
Speaker 2 (38:01):
I teach a research class and I feel like whenever
I'm teaching it, I'm trying to,I'm trying to turn the students
into nerds.
Speaker 1 (38:12):
And you're doing it at the master's level, right At
the master's level, which isvery critical.
Yeah, I love it.
Speaker 2 (38:17):
It's super critical Because they come in so scared
of research and I know mystudents are listening to the
podcast, probably they're goingto listen to this episode and
I'm teaching them research inthe summer.
I just finished teaching themtheories.
I won't have them next semesterBecause the way that we set up
our program is I teach themevery other semester, and we do
that intentionally.
(38:38):
We have faculty teach themevery semester, unfortunately,
you know, we have faculty, heteach them every semester, and
then we have some faculty whotheir teaching style better
suits a student whenever theyget to the second year of the
program, and so they teach himfor the second year and so I get
to teach him in their firstclass.
(38:58):
And then I get to teach themevery other semester until they
get to their last class, youknow, but when I'm teaching the
research class, I am trying toturn them into nerds, trying to
get them to tap into why we'redoing this research.
And even if you don't doresearch but you consume it, and
you consume it for your clients, then you need to understand
what's good, what's bad researchyou know, what's poor research?
(39:22):
I guess is probably a better wayto put it.
But there are layers to likewhat you're trying to touch in a
student's lived experiencethroughout the program in each
class you know, I don't know,and I don't know if you
experience this as well.
I feel like sometimes studentsjust want you to just teach them
(39:48):
, especially the scared studentsyou know, they just just give
me the information.
You know, like I don't want youto touch my soul, I don't want
you to change my mind if you'retalking about research.
Speaker 1 (39:59):
research cannot be taught that way.
I know, In my experience atleast.
I will give you all theknowledge I have, and still.
Speaker 2 (40:09):
I know, but I think no class can be taught that way.
Definitely not.
You know what I mean.
Speaker 1 (40:18):
No, you and I are on the same page.
You know that, yep.
Speaker 2 (40:21):
Yep, yep, but do you feel like?
Students like the students whocome in and they submit to that
process, I feel like have abetter chance of like not just
learning the information, butlike integrating it into, like
(40:42):
how they exist yep, definitely,because, like I, it is
interesting coming from turkey,obviously, um, having my
master's degree over here andcoming to the us.
Speaker 1 (40:53):
My master's degree was a lot more research focused.
So I, when I came to the statesto pursue my phd, I was already
a researcher.
So, like, I already did severaldifferent research studies and
I had an understanding of how toconceptualize research, which
evolved over the years.
But the piece is, I wasn't asscared of research as my peers
(41:17):
were, or I wasn't as hateresearch as they did.
Speaker 2 (41:22):
Yeah, I feel like I'm trying to seduce them into
loving research sometimes I loveto say demystify research,
because I think, what really?
Speaker 1 (41:32):
happens.
Since our master's programs aremore clinically focused
programs, research is very muchat the back burner and sometimes
we also don't do a good job.
In my opinion, again, differentprograms does different work
and, like I'm pretty sure thereare programs, they are doing a
wonderful job.
But I frequently question howmuch we are able to help them
(41:58):
understand what they do in acounseling room is not really
free from what they do inresearch.
Yes, I use the wordconceptualizing research.
We conceptualize clients.
Speaker 2 (42:11):
Gosh.
Speaker 1 (42:12):
Same mentality, like it is.
Like you know, we focus ondifferent information, we put
those information together andwe have a treatment plan.
We do exactly the same thing inresearch and I usually like to
make those connections.
That doesn't eliminate thechallenge of learning the
research language or eliminatethe challenge of understanding
(42:34):
different designs and how eachdesign has its own processes and
mindsets, but normalizing thosepieces like you were talking
about, like normalizing, it'sokay, because very frequently we
think about numbers and, likeyou know, the majority of us
don't like numbers.
Speaker 2 (42:54):
hence, we are drawn to social sciences I know, man,
it's the, it's the right andwrong of it you know that I feel
like we're in every other place, like in the counseling
training experience.
There's like gray area and Ithink students see research and
think that it's black and whitewhich is really it's just not
(43:15):
man.
No, no, no.
Okay, so I have anotherquestion how long do you think
you can keep doing this?
Speaker 1 (43:27):
Being a faculty.
Speaker 2 (43:29):
And this is what I mean.
This is what I mean right,because, like we've, we all of
who we are, it's like in thetraining experience you know
what I mean.
We don't put a PowerPoint upand just read from the
(43:52):
PowerPoint.
It's like you know you're,you're trying to like.
When students graduate, I thinkthey would equally say that
they know who we are.
There's an emotional investment.
There's an emotional investment.
There's an emotional investmentyeah.
And some students, some wholecohorts are harder to attach to
(44:16):
than others, you know, you knowand you know, it's that.
Speaker 1 (44:30):
it's that like friction between and being able
to to do it and but then watchthem grow.
It's just a lot, yep, you know,I don't know.
Speaker 2 (44:34):
I don't want you to put a number on it yeah, like
don't put a number on it, butbut do you feel like like
there's some days I wake up andI go I can do this forever.
And there's some days I wake upand I'm like I'm going to put a
(44:55):
PowerPoint up and you know whatI'm going to do.
I'm going to have each studenttake a chapter.
I'm gonna split them up intogroups.
I'm gonna take a chapter andtalk about it and I'm just gonna
sit and I'm gonna grade you onpresentations.
You know what I mean, becausethere's some faculty who do that
(45:15):
, you know, and it's that theydon't teach, they just show up
and you know whose group isdoing chapter 13 a day.
You know, yeah, and you knowwhose group is doing chapter 13
a day.
Speaker 1 (45:25):
You know, um, yeah, and you know, what you're
describing is like you know,very much like being again human
and yeah being a professionaland there are so many different
things that we are doing and youare specifically focusing on
teaching part in a faculty'slife and so after graduating
(45:48):
from the doc program, some of myum colleagues now take faculty
positions and then come back tome in a few years and they're
like I had no idea.
I had no idea you all weredoing these and I'm like yeah
mm-hmm yeah.
Speaker 2 (46:03):
Do you ever lay it out for your students?
Speaker 1 (46:05):
I mean, I try to give them as much access as possible
so that they would understand,and, at the same time, finding
that balance like you know howmuch is too much to share,
because that's benefiting me,that I'm getting it out of my
chest, and sometimes it doesn'tmake sense Because, like,
(46:27):
particularly doctoral studentsare in this unique position of
like one foot in as a facultyand one foot is in the student
side and they do lots ofdifferent things we are doing
and I sometimes say and by nomeans I'm trying to be um
minimizing without theresponsibility, like you know,
(46:48):
yeah, and like deadlines arepretty much set for them and,
like you know, they have thework they are doing.
Then, becoming a faculty, nowyou have all these
responsibility.
You need to teach, you need todo research, you need to do
service.
Depends on your position.
There's so much happeningservice at the university level,
service at the regional level,national level, international
(47:12):
level, it is, it can be a lot.
But if we were to focus onteaching, I frequently think and
every year I'm like next year,year, I'm going to look at this
and I'm going to improve thispart, and then that year comes
and so much is happening and Ido a little bit change, tweaks
and other stuff.
(47:32):
Still, it is working out well.
I wish I had more time.
That's what I'm trying to say.
I wish I had more time to beable to put effort into my
teaching.
Speaker 2 (47:44):
I know, right, it feels like each semester I'm
doing the best that I can andmaking some transitions.
But, like you said, I did I andman I overshared in class, I
think maybe like two or threeweeks ago.
You know students, you knowthey asked, they were like you
(48:08):
know what all do you do?
You know, and I wasn't evenreally thinking about it, you
know I was like, oh yeah.
So, like you know, this is whatwe do and I kind of broke it
down into the areas like youtalked about.
You know teaching, scholarship,you know service,
administrative stuff, and thenyou know all of the other stuff
that we do and I wasn't reallythinking about it.
(48:29):
You know, like I was just kindof talking and sharing and I
think I even got on the boardand like wrote down, like I know
, I know I did, I broke it downand I was like and it was, I
wasn't even I mean it was, itwas, it was a mixture of like
(48:52):
pity.
Speaker 1 (48:58):
Some of them were impressed.
Speaker 2 (48:59):
Some of them were like some of them were like oh
my God, how do you sleep?
You know, I, and.
But I think one of the thingsthat like made me feel like
shame I guess it's like is is Isaw them communicate he's
(49:22):
unavailable, you know.
You know, what I mean.
And even though I am you know,it's kind of like oversharing in
session sometimes.
It makes your clients go likeoh well, I'm not going to tell
you about my stuff.
You know, yeah, it'sheartbreaking, it is, and that
heartbreaking it is, and that isthe other thing.
Speaker 1 (49:46):
I'm glad you are mentioning this.
I think, in different timeframes, in different
environments, we all do this,yeah, and it depends on where we
do, which student level we do,in which context we do.
It might actually yielddifferent, different reactions,
(50:07):
but it ties back to, don't youthink that it really ties back
to that culture piece.
Like you know, somehow there'sso much going on that we do so
much to demonstrate thatexcellence or productivity or
(50:27):
whatever it is that, um, there'snot enough time in a day to
like take a little bit of abreak and like breathe.
And I sometimes feel like ifthe days were 48 hours, we would
again, like you know, sleep,let's say, 16 of that hours, but
we would still work.
(50:47):
Um, yeah, because work is thereand there's so much going on
and it's somehow I don't know ifit is um, it is more related to
moving, progressing in ourprofessional trajectories, but
somehow too much is happeningand it keeps growing.
(51:08):
It just doesn't slow down.
I don't know what is that about.
Speaker 2 (51:13):
I know, I don't know, it's like a rash or something,
it just keeps like the to-dolist.
But the students, you know, andI think, like the you know,
it's almost like just you know.
But the students, you know, andI, and I think, like the you
know, it's almost like um, youknow.
Speaker 1 (51:27):
I mean, I think our kids are about the same age,
right like uh mine is a littleyounger than yours, but your
little one is younger than mine,I think yeah, I think valence
three I want to say, but then,yeah, you know we have charlotte
who's?
Speaker 2 (51:42):
one, but uh, yeah, but but, we're two, okay, yeah.
So there's that like.
There's that feeling like whenyou, you know your kid wants
something and they come up toyou and they're asking but
you're busy, you know, and youhave to, you have to kind of,
you can't be available a hundredpercent of the time.
(52:04):
You know what I mean, and soyou do have to disappoint them.
You know, like, and because youneed you, you gotta, you know,
do this thing, or take this callor answer this email or do
something.
You know.
And the look on their face, youknow, when you're like, just
give me a second.
You know.
And the look on their face, youknow, when you're like, just
give me a second.
(52:24):
You know.
That's the feeling you know youget and you, you want, you want
students to.
I think what I really want isfor them to know that this is
what I really want to be doingis sitting in an office with
them on a whiteboard talkingabout theories.
You know what I mean and and Iwant them to want to be invested
(52:50):
enough to want that you know.
And I want to also model forthem how this is part of growing
up professionally.
You know they will have to sayno to clients because they just
don't have the space of the timeyou know what I mean.
(53:10):
And so you, there's some shameand some guilt in this training
experience that and I'm gonnabring it back for a circle that
I don't think other programsfeel in the same way that we do
you?
Speaker 1 (53:27):
are making a great point.
Yeah, you are also like talkingabout your personal experience
of like all these processes, andit is not that cut and dry for
us as counselor educators thatyou know I don't have time.
I know you're going through arough time right now yeah, but
(53:47):
it's five o'clock, I don't havetime.
Sorry, I need to I need toactually, or it is not my job to
focus on your personal stuff,like you know it's not within
the realm of our, our work.
That's the gray area you weretalking about.
That's like personal andprofessional to a degree
intertwined in what we are doing.
(54:09):
And I'm not saying there are noboundaries.
Boundaries are there and Ithink we and they're important.
Yes and very important and, atthe same time, we also want to
attend to those personalprocesses, because they are part
of what we are doing and wecannot ignore that piece.
Yeah, definitely, and I think,also like it is necessary for
(54:33):
our students to know that manyof us majority of us are in this
for very similar reasons, thatthey are in this Like we have
that common passion to make animpact or help others.
It might look differently indifferent settings, in different
(54:54):
situations.
What we do, Like you said you,you in your office, and over the
years, what I stopped doing isto be in my office because I I
like to keep my door open whenthe door is open yeah, come on
in I prioritize talking to mystudents over the emails or what
I need to get done at a certaintime frame.
(55:18):
so instead I started to actuallyschedule meetings and, like you
know, a majority of my studentsknow they can shoot me an email
and we will schedule a meetingand this meeting they will get
my undivided attention.
Yes, but in my position I'mable to do it At this point.
I wouldn't be able to do asmuch.
Last year around this time.
(55:39):
Your position is different.
Last year around this time,your position is different and
it's like you know, you have aupper admin responsibility which
is consuming, I assume yeah,it's so consuming.
Speaker 2 (55:50):
Yeah, it really is yeah in a different in a
different way than you know, Iexpected yep, you know what I
mean and uh, and I think that'sthe, that's the.
Where it comes from is that youjust feel pulled away from them
.
You know Um and um and this islike I mean we're, we're, we're
(56:12):
growing counselors, we're notmaking them, you know, like
we're growing them, and so yougotta like, tend the fields you
know, and so anyway, all right,I know it's been an hour, man.
Speaker 1 (56:28):
I know we got it.
Speaker 2 (56:30):
I know we got it, I think we got to have you back on
again because I really want toknow maybe, even maybe, next
time we talk we can talk aboutlike the doc program and you
know, know how to how to becomea good faculty member.
Um, I know we shared a lotabout our experience, but um any
closing thoughts or words forthe listeners.
(56:51):
Most of our listeners aregraduate students, counselors
out in the field or doc students.
Anything you feel like you justwant to share with them.
Speaker 1 (56:59):
I mean, it's just like we we all are here to
support each other.
I think we really need toremember that piece.
Like faculty you mentionedivory tower.
It is so easy to put faculty onpedestal and look up to faculty.
I mean, respecting each otheris the basics of what we are
doing, but we are all humanbeings too and we have off days
(57:24):
too, just like you described,and some days we also don't want
to do things and we might havea lot going on on our plates.
And at the same time, I think,as long as we keep each other in
mind and keep supporting eachother and giving the benefit of
doubt when things did not go theway we had hoped, I think
(57:49):
that's what we can do as acommunity, and I'm all about
building those communities andcreating a space where we all
can support each other with ourstrengths, because I think our
students bring such a wonderfulenergy that sometimes what we
have just described, while thatsucks out, sucks the energy out
(58:10):
of us.
Our students actually fill inus with that energy and I I
think that's what keep us goingyeah, I love that.
Speaker 2 (58:19):
All right.
Well, hey, thanks for.
Hey, thanks for listening Thankyou, kevin, of course, man,
we're going to have you hereagain.
Speaker 1 (58:25):
I will be glad to.
Speaker 2 (58:26):
Okay.
Well, we'll see y'all next time.
Speaker 1 (58:29):
Okay, see you next time.
That's it, man.
Thank you too.
Okay, take care.
Speaker 2 (58:32):
I think you can just leave.
I think there's like a littlesection up there.
well, hey, man geez, are you recording this?
I?
Speaker 3 (00:17):
started recording, yeah I got I got a good I got a
good 30 minutes because i'reinterviewing an associate
professor today at like 1030.
Speaker 1 (00:28):
So we're going to go there.
Good luck with the search.
Yeah, a lot of work.
Speaker 3 (00:32):
Yeah, the searches are always like hit and miss,
sometimes Like they look reallygreat on paper and then you do
an interview and it's like, oh,okay, I don't think I want to
spend the rest of my career nextdoor to you.
Speaker 2 (00:45):
You're marrying somebody.
You're marrying somebody.
There's no way to get around it.
Speaker 1 (00:50):
That's a great way of putting it into words, right?
We see?
Our colleagues, more than wesee our partners and our kids.
We spend quite a bit of timewith our colleagues at work.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
Yeah man.
Speaker 1 (01:02):
I mean, we're at a different era now.
It's not as much as we used to,but we communicate with them a
lot more.
You definitely want somebodywho is going to be collegial.
Speaker 3 (01:12):
I feel like I'm always in a group chat with my
faculty about just, you know,random.
You know what are we doing forthe holiday potluck, all the way
to oh that's hey the powerturned off in the building so
nobody come in today.
You know just, uh.
You know how was football thisweekend.
You know how was.
(01:32):
How was your kid soccer like?
We just have a group chat wherelike that's what we talk about.
Speaker 1 (01:36):
That's so sweet we got a good thing.
Speaker 3 (01:38):
We got a good thing going over here.
You know, I send uh kidpictures and my.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
My faculty is weird.
We're in a D&D campaign,dungeons and Dragons campaign
together.
So my faculty, we're weird,it's fun, though it's so fun.
You know that's not weird,that's just we fought.
What do we?
We fought we fought some demonstogether, that's some tree
creatures.
(02:04):
The other day as a faculty youknow, throwing spells.
Speaker 1 (02:12):
Well, you know, I love that you're talking about
that and you both are telling me, like you know, that's how it
should be.
Speaker 2 (02:19):
I think that's how it should be.
I think that's how it should be.
Speaker 1 (02:22):
Constantly talking about counseling, counselor ed
training, counselors trainingsupervisors, doing research, and
you know it gets old after awhile, I know man, it really
does All right.
Speaker 2 (02:34):
Well, should we officially start, julius, you
want to officially welcome them?
Speaker 3 (02:38):
Yeah, how about you?
Speaker 2 (02:39):
take it away man.
Okay, well, listeners, welcomeback Another podcast.
I don't know what number thisis 60, 55.
I'm happy to be here.
We, we have a guest, and to saya guest is it doesn't capture
the, the influence I feel likethis person has on my lived
(03:02):
experience, and vicariouslythrough yours, julius, because I
just won't shut up about her.
You know, uh, I've been sayingthis for years, her and her wife
I chaired her wife'sdissertation and, uh, we've just
been doing life together forquite some years, man, and so,
um, we have a guest, gushaKimmer.
(03:24):
Dr Gusha Kimmer.
Look, I don't know how you wantto introduce yourself, gusha,
but you have the floor.
Speaker 1 (03:34):
What do you want them to know about you, man?
I mean, you know what?
I can take a long route, shortroute and, like the vibe of our
conversations, I can come fromboth personal and professional
angles.
Speaker 2 (03:48):
Let's do personal.
Okay, if you were going to sayone thing about yourself that
you feel like students,professional world, personal
friends need to know that's like.
This is you.
Speaker 1 (04:06):
What is it?
Well, I'm a big soccer fan.
So like we wouldn't call itsoccer in Europe, in Turkey we
would call it football.
So I think, that's somethingpeople rarely know.
Speaker 2 (04:20):
That is true.
I don't think people know thatenough.
Speaker 1 (04:21):
That is true, I don't think people know that enough
and I try to catch my favoriteteam's games as much as I can
with the time difference andeverything in Turkey and they
sometimes play in.
Speaker 2 (04:33):
Europe.
Who's your favorite?
Speaker 1 (04:34):
team that's games.
So it is Beşiktaş out of Turkey.
Speaker 3 (04:38):
Yeah, yeah, I think me and Jude are probably more
familiar with the Turkish league, probably so.
Speaker 1 (04:46):
I know you do, I know , I know you do, I know you do
and you know, I think, thecommon thing if I recall
correctly, we actually recruiteda young Turkish player from
Arsenal.
Speaker 2 (05:04):
That I know you both know, at least I know Jude loves
Arsenal.
I know that place.
Wow, here you go.
Speaker 1 (05:12):
And so he played for us for a long time, like Ozan Öz
Yakup.
He was really young, but it wasin your young team, if I'm not
mistaken.
And then he went to Netherlandsfor a few years and he got
retired this year.
So he's a sucker.
Speaker 2 (05:31):
I think I did see that.
Yeah, Wow, man.
Well, that's awesome, man.
Well, look, we don't reallyhave an agenda.
We never do.
And I told you is that weusually like when Gush and I
usually talk, we go from everypossible angle, man.
But, I did have a question,right.
(05:52):
Yes, because your research lineis on supervision, right?
I feel like a pretty softballquestion that may take three
hours to answer.
Speaker 1 (06:02):
It's like and you know me, I can't speak for hours
about that.
Speaker 2 (06:06):
What makes a good supervisor For your research?
I guess, just given some of thestuff that you've researched,
some stuff that you found, whatmakes a good supervisor?
Speaker 1 (06:16):
I think the very first thing come to me is a
reflective supervisor Is a goodsupervisor Like reflecting on
their practice supervisor is agood supervisor like reflecting
on their practice and like tryto come from different angles,
of being empathic with thesupervisee as much as they are
empathic with the client andalso being empathic with
themselves because, like, it isso easy to set ourselves in
(06:41):
certain standards, particularlysince supervision is an
evaluative process and we needto put our gatekeeping hats in
the running background.
Sometimes things can get reallytask oriented and it needs to
happen this way, and sometimeswe need to hold the tension in
(07:03):
supervision and it's more of aprocess piece.
So like if I, as a supervisor,reflect into those moments and
like hold the space for mysupervisee and help them reflect
and model that reflections tothem and remember that I am a
human being too, I think thatmakes a good supervisor.
Speaker 3 (07:25):
Yeah, I love that.
That idea of like I am a humantoo, you know, I think sometimes
gets.
There's so much of a powerdynamic that exists within the
supervisor relationship and Idon't know, man, when I was a
student I thought my supervisorwas a magician.
Sometimes was a magician,sometimes because some, because
(07:48):
there wasn't really thatreflective process of, hey, this
is, this was my listen, thiswas my experience when I was at
your level of you know, clinicalexperience and this is what it
was like for me there was nolike humanizing the aspect of
like the process, so I would bejust, you know, doing idiotic
first year.
you know, uh, clinician stuff,you know, like trying to be too
(08:11):
solution focused and trying tofind the answer, trying to help
you know and my supervisor wouldsay something like you know,
like a combination of three orfour words that really helped
the client and I was like howdid you know to say that?
Like how did you even know thatthat would work?
You know how did you know?
Speaker 1 (08:33):
And it's amazing that you are mentioning that.
You know it is a developmentalprocess to supervise supervisors
in our doctoral program.
They usually feel like at thebeginning of their practice they
need to know everything andthey need to be this expert to
have answers to everything.
(08:54):
And even I don't have answersto everything after doing this
quite some time, and by no meansI'm trying to say I'm at a
different place than they are.
I have been doing it sometime.
That's the reason why I'msaying it's like there are.
Sometimes I really need to goand consult with my colleagues
and sometimes I need to actuallyacknowledge that.
(09:15):
You know what?
In the session they said thisand it dropped me in the wrong
way.
And I like ready to like bringout my clothes and everything,
but again, like it's all thosethings you mentioned, it happens
for supervisors too.
And acknowledging that we arein our own journey, in our
(09:39):
developmental process and thereis no end to it, and that's
another piece in the same line.
Yeah, um of like beingreflective, is that that's a
good supervisor to me?
Speaker 2 (09:50):
I know it's, it's scary, though, like I do, I will
admit that, like you know, Idon't know about you guys, but
when you're, when you're a docstudent, or maybe even in that
first time supervising, like youalmost feel.
Like you almost feel like yourrelationship with the, with the
supervisee, is not enough, right, like, like you, you know what.
(10:15):
It's actually a parallelprocess, I think, in session, as
I'm thinking about our students, our students who, starting
practicum next semester, areseeing their first clients this
week, yeah, and so they're likedoing their intakes.
You know, we go to break andthen they come back, and we've
been teaching these students fortwo years, right Before they
(10:37):
see their first client, andwe've been pouring into them
like, hey, relationship is key,build a strong relationship.
Hey, build a strong relationship.
Hey, build a strongrelationship.
Hey, don't forget about therelationship.
Offer genuineness, unkindnessof high regard.
And they get it.
And then you go to that firstsession and you want to be the
smartest person in the roombecause you you don't want
(11:00):
something as flimsy as love.
To like, hold the space youwant, like, if I could just sit
you on a 10 books and I cantrust that I have all of the
knowledge you need, then I'll bea good therapist.
It's like you just and that'sthe same thing for supervision
(11:22):
Like you get your firstsupervisee and you just don't
want to be dumb, you know.
You just don't want them tolook at you like, well, I got
the short end of the stick, youknow what?
Speaker 3 (11:35):
PhD.
I don't believe you.
I taught a multicultural class.
Well, I teach multiculturalevery Tuesdays, right, and at
the end of class yesterday, likeI, the last student, left the
room and it's like a littleboardroom right, there's like I
don't know eight students in theclass.
All the students left the roomand man, I mean I was getting
(11:57):
hit with all kinds of questions,right, and like I knew the
answers to it, but I was alittle like I mean, that's I'm
just kind of making this up, butlike it does come from
somewhere, you know.
Speaker 2 (12:08):
So, man, I've read some stuff you know.
Speaker 3 (12:11):
So, man, the students left, and it was quiet and it
was just me, and I just turnedoff my laptop and I I thought to
myself whoo, you made itanother day, another day not
being found out, another daywhere you appear like you're the
professor of record on thiscourse.
(12:32):
One of these days, though,they're going to find you out
one of these days they're goingto be like oh, oh he, he knows
nothing, oh he oh where's,where's your parents, where's
the department head?
Speaker 1 (12:50):
I love that Because, like you know, I think we all
have that Like, we all feel likeimposters to a degree and none
of us acknowledge it.
We only acknowledge it toourselves if we are reflective
enough.
Acknowledge it, we onlyacknowledge it to ourselves if
we are reflective enough.
But I, like you know, I believethat we all need to just
(13:11):
embrace it Like there is nothing.
And I remember in one of theconferences I attended, a
session, they were talking aboutimposter syndrome, how to
tackle with it, and, like youknow, basically the conversation
sounded like we need to get ridof it, yeah.
And then I was like, why are wegetting rid of it?
It is a beautiful thing to have, yeah, man, that keeps us going
(13:31):
, that keeps us humble,hopefully, and it helps us to
keep recognizing that we need tolearn and keep growing.
Because, like, if I don't havethat mindset that I need to keep
knowing things and oh my gosh,I'm really lack in this area and
I know what I know and I knowthere are things I don't know I
(13:52):
think that this is kind ofproblematic.
I know, man, I know I don'tknow.
I love that you are saying thatbecause I'm right there with
you 100%.
Speaker 2 (14:02):
Well, there's some students.
Speaker 3 (14:03):
Just real quick.
There's some students who, insupervision they'll come in with
this idea of I have tocompletely hide the idea of me
being anything other than anexpert Right or being anything
(14:28):
other than a good counselor.
So they they scour their likeyou know, clinical videos and
they're like what can I show,what can I present in
supervision?
That's going to make me appearlike I kind of need some help,
but also not too much of ahorrible therapist.
So they like try to find thismiddle ground of, like they can
give me feedback on this, butI'm not showing them that shit,
like the stuff that I did like30, 30 minutes prior to this
(14:49):
video starting, was horrible.
Speaker 2 (14:52):
I'm not showing that, you know, but I'll, I'll give
them this, you know, I'll givethem this little bit but it's a,
it's a cultural thing to me,right, like, and here's what I
mean Like, like, if we as afaculty and this is where Gusha
and I start talking for days-right, oh, yeah, like if, if, if
(15:14):
, as a faculty you aren'treflective and and you do, you,
you as a as a faculty unitno-transcript, and there's
(16:12):
something in there to say aboutsafety and vulnerability, and
how do you structure a programto be able to navigate that and
manage that and cultivate that,not just in class but in
one-on-one sessions?
You know individual sessionsand it's just hard, man, because
I see students who come fromother programs.
It's almost like they come withlike education hurt oh know
where, like you know what I mean, like sometimes we'll get,
because you know, k-crap.
We accept about 12 credits.
Speaker 3 (16:32):
I don't know what you guys's programs do, but it's
about 12 credits, you know jesusrinky dinky university probably
accepts 24 before they uh weare a Research 1 institution.
Thank you very much.
Speaker 2 (16:49):
Research is like a lowercase r1.
It's r1 with an asterisk We'llsee.
You know, sometimes G is thestudents who graduate and then
move to Austin and so Isupervise them.
When they come to Austin, comehere, let me help you.
That's the first year, we'llsee, we'll see.
But anyway, yeah, you know,sometimes you get students who
(17:13):
they come in and they havespelled 12, you know 12 credits
or 12 hours at anotheruniversity.
And man, they come in just likehurt man, just like kind of
like a deer.
You know like they're in class,just like looking man, just
like kind of like a deer.
You know like they're in class,just like looking around.
You know like not talking.
You know what I mean like notbeing vulnerable, you know, and
(17:34):
um, yeah, there's just.
I know not all programs arecreated equal, but damn like it
just feels like let me just.
Speaker 3 (17:42):
Let me just jump in because it's very similar to my
experience as a faculty member,because I know y'all have been
at you guys' institutions for awhile, right.
Speaker 2 (17:54):
Yeah, how long have you been at ODU?
Speaker 1 (17:57):
Ten years now.
Speaker 2 (17:58):
Ten years.
Yeah, I'm about six, startingmy seventh, I am.
Speaker 3 (18:04):
About six starting my seventh.
I am four months into being atthe University of.
Speaker 1 (18:12):
Louisiana Jesus can't keep a job.
He can't, he can't keep a job.
Speaker 2 (18:16):
Our jobs can't keep him.
Let's say that Maybe that's it.
That might be just anexpression.
He's the problem.
He's the problem.
He's the problem.
Speaker 3 (18:25):
He's the problem After the third institution.
Speaker 2 (18:27):
It's like maybe.
Speaker 3 (18:28):
I need to look in the mirror and maybe it is.
Speaker 2 (18:31):
You know, all of those universities are still
standing.
There's only one person.
Speaker 1 (18:37):
But I know you are trying to say something.
Julius, you see how Jude getsin the way Jude's point is very
important, like you know theculture piece like this
prevalent culture across theseinstitutions and we can talk
about that hours and like you,know how those culture is rested
on certain values, that is notserving.
Speaker 3 (18:59):
That's what I'm getting at.
Speaker 1 (19:00):
Neither student population nor faculty
population.
Speaker 3 (19:04):
That's what I'm getting at.
Neither student population norfaculty.
All right, fine, it's okay,that's what I'm getting at,
because I am somebody who I needif the culture is unhealthy, I
just can't stay there Like Ican't stand it.
Speaker 2 (19:15):
That's why he has been kind of job hopping Because
.
I think, julius, for you you'relike man.
My sense of self and my selfand and my values will not budge
Like I will find a universitythat aligns with my teaching.
Speaker 3 (19:30):
Yeah, and I, and I feel like you know, university
of Louisiana is the first andonly university where I've
landed here and it's like, oh,okay, like this aligns with.
This aligns with not only who Iam as a professor, but like it
aligns with who I am as a fatherand a husband.
And you know the, you know it's, you know seven minutes away
(19:53):
from my house, you know it'sit's just you know it's, my kids
were running around the hallsthe other day, you know, just,
it's just.
It's a really good feeling, youknow.
But I've gone through a lot ofunhealthy faculty and staff
situations, so I'm I'm curiouswhat do y'all think are like the
(20:15):
fundamental pieces to creatinglike a healthy faculty, a
healthy culture what makes agood, what makes a good program?
Speaker 2 (20:23):
dream what makes a good program?
Dreamless.
Money doesn't matter.
University's on board.
You got everything you need.
You don't have to go begging toyour dean for faculty lives.
Speaker 3 (20:34):
Please can we just get some post-it notes.
Please can we just get some?
Speaker 1 (20:40):
On-campus clinic.
Yes, definitely, definitelymake.
Yes, definitely, definitely.
I mean, like you know I thinkthe the first what you said,
jude the culture like facultybeing respectful of each other
and building certain criteriatogether and like having a
reasonable basis for differentcriteria.
(21:00):
Yeah, like I'm going to talkabout the faculty promotion and
all those pieces.
Like you know, what are wetalking it?
What are we looking at?
Why are we looking at thosethings?
Speaker 2 (21:10):
reasonable.
Speaker 1 (21:11):
That's the key word here, yep reasonable in a sense
that it serves each person withwithin their own trajectory.
And like trying to puteverybody on the same standard.
We are not all coming fromsimilar backgrounds and like
when I say backgrounds, we cantalk about a wide range of
(21:33):
backgrounds and we did not havethe same experiences.
Like some of us is a lot moreprivileged than the other people
to be cultured into academicexcellence.
Speaker 3 (21:47):
I'm using air quotes because that is usually in all
institutions' websites right,yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (21:54):
So like how we are actually redefining some of
those pieces and making surethat people still do what they
want to do and keep makingimpact, and impact can look
differently in my opinion.
Yeah, I love that.
Speaker 2 (22:08):
I love that, but that takes a whole university that
to to kind of commit to whatwe're trying to do.
You know, and not like when Isay we, I mean we as a
counseling program, because I dothink that there's a tension
between between, maybe likeadministration or yeah, I'll
(22:30):
just say administration on thewhole, you know, and maybe this
full understanding of what itmeans to train counselors and
just how different of a trainingor educational experience it is
compared to training architects, right?
Speaker 3 (22:48):
You know, to training even artists.
Speaker 2 (22:51):
You know what I mean.
It's just different, likethere's layers to it and it's
just.
You know what I mean and youcan't explain it to them.
Speaker 1 (23:03):
Yeah, you know, know what I mean.
Um, and you, you can't explainit to them.
Yeah, you know.
You even make me think, likeyou know, at the administrative
level, there should be moreeffort to be inclusive, this
discipline wise, so that, likeyou, have somebody who is
representing your unit in theadministrative level.
Let's just speak for college.
(23:24):
They know what you are doing,but they also need to be working
with the department or theprogram who they are
representing.
But we can go back and say thatis it possible to create that
cohesion within your own faculty, that cohesion within your own
(23:48):
faculty?
And it's actually that's wherewe may have most influence and
um control over even that ischallenging but, like going back
to your question, what makes alike cohesive place?
like?
I wish we did not have a lot ofadministrative stuff to do, so
that we would be more familiarwith each other's work and we
(24:11):
knew each other more, bothpersonally and professionally,
and have more collaboration onhow to structure things, because
it is so easy to work in ourown silos without as a unit.
But again, I'm going to go backand put it on the systems.
(24:33):
I don't want to put it on theindividuals, because systems
dictate certain things and thisis a systemic issue than
individual issue yeah um well,one thing that would make it a
good well to your.
To your point like the.
Speaker 3 (24:49):
The thing that I appreciate the most about the
faculty that I'm with now is thesystem that we live within,
like the system that our programchair has built, because this
is our one and only programchair.
Like, he's been the programchair for you know 20 something
years.
He built the, he built theprogram at the university, and
(25:09):
so there's like, yes, there isthis unique balance of, like,
you know, we're going tosupervise and we're going to
research and we're going to, youknow, help manage the clinic
and we're going to teach, butalso we're going to have like a
halloween party, um, at aparticular professor's house,
like their personal house, rightwhen, like you know, alumni is
(25:30):
going to come and gather at thishouse.
At this party, there's going tobe like a, you know, a luncheon
or a brunch at another faculty'shouse where, like, the
graduating students are going tocome and we're going to talk
about, yes, we're going to eatand we're going to drink, and
we're going to talk about, yes,we're going to eat and we're
going to drink and we're goingto laugh, but we're also going
to talk about.
This is how you get ready forlike, a licensure in the state.
You know, there's like athere's a holiday end of
(25:54):
semester gumbo potluck at likethe department heads house where
we all bring our like, ourpartners and our dogs and our
kids and we all hang out.
That system allows us to managethe tension of disagreements in
faculty meetings or when we'remisaligned when it comes to the
(26:20):
direction of a course or thedirection of a particular
student.
You know, like those type thatconnection allows us to
withstand that tension thatexists in like you know almost
everybody's faculty.
Speaker 1 (26:34):
Isn't it bringing us back to like being human and
having relationships first sothat we can actually do the hard
work, like the parallel processyou were talking about?
Jude is like everywhere, likeyou know, unless I have good
modeling to my students how tobe human with my faculty, with
my students, and be able to holdthe space when difficult
(26:57):
discussions and conversationshappen um address them directly
without actually going to otherplaces before I try to resolve
some of those challenges, whatwe are talking about are
actually, in every level of whatwe are doing, the relationship
(27:18):
and being able to beappropriately vulnerable with
each other and holding the spaceand remembering that we are all
human beings and that peace isimportant to support each other.
And like holding the space andremembering that we are all
human beings and that that peaceis important to support each
other, because we thought thatwe are doing.
We are building a house.
Actually this was a metaphorand I really liked in one of my
(27:40):
students dissertations we arebuilding a house, but all the
nails are like problematic, likeyou know yeah, or they are not
there.
Speaker 2 (27:51):
They're not, they don't have doors yeah house is
bound to collapse.
They're made out of rubber.
Yeah, I mean, that's true, man,and you feel it.
Students feel that.
You know like.
Students are like kids in thesense that they know something
is up.
They may not feel the powerthat they can say it, but they
(28:13):
know something is up and they'remost likely responding to it.
You know like and you can.
You can see it in their work.
You can see it in thecommunity's relationship to the
students.
You know like.
That's one of the things like.
I think one of the things that Ilike about our program that I
think makes a program reallygood is having this connection
(28:35):
to the community, like you knowwho you're training your
students to work with.
You know like either whetherthat's clinicians or clients.
You know like understanding theclientele that you're training
your students for, so that yourprogram becomes maybe a little
(28:56):
bit more what's the right way toput it?
Your program becomes a littlebit more like a community
counseling program, you know,and not like a counseling
program at large, but like we'retraining our students to work
in the communities around us.
Speaker 3 (29:17):
Yeah, the program becomes a fixture of the
community it lives within.
The program becomes a fixtureof the community.
Speaker 2 (29:24):
It lives within Exactly and it's intertwined
into it, you know, and not justin like a superficial way, like
we have relationships withclinics in the area, but like
the faculty is in and amongstthe people.
You know we're not like on thisin this ivory tower.
You know like tenuredexcellence and you only come to
(29:45):
us whenever you want knowledge.
You know like now we're in thestreets and we're talking to
people, then we're, you know, atthe houses of the homeless
cookouts and we're all.
You know what I mean and I knownot every program can be that
way, but there's this likeintentionality that I think
(30:06):
where there's a connection thistown and gown connection.
Speaker 3 (30:14):
Yeah, you know what I mean.
That's where you like I don't,I don't, I don't know if we want
to go down this tangent and Iknow I gotta, I gotta jump off
anyway, but that I worked at anonline university for years and
I'm you know the university wasgreat and the program was great,
but like that's one thing thatI missed from like the
difference between like a brickand mortar on the ground type of
(30:35):
program and an online programis that hey man, there's an open
house at tree of LifeCounseling Center here in the
community and it's an open house.
So we need like a facultymember or two to like just show
up to be a representative forthe program.
Some of our students work atTree of Life and some of our
(30:56):
students would love to see usthere.
You know and like, see ussupport that, and the community
wants to see the university andthe program kind of support
what's going on in it.
You know and like see ussupport that and the community
wants to see the university andthe program kind of support
what's going on in it.
You know, like an online program, you don't really get that
community-based, participatorytype of relationship building.
You know it's not, it's not,it's just it's not bad, it just
(31:16):
is what it is.
And there's some programs whoare embedded within the
community that just like don'tshow up, for you know the
clinics that their students arehoused in for practicum and
internship, you know they justlike they're this like external.
You know site that the programdoesn't touch, you know it.
(31:37):
I think it's like superimportant for university faculty
to like show up to the ribboncutting ceremonies at a clinic
or to show up to like the schoolboard meetings, because we have
a graduate student who's in adual track of clinical mental
health and school counseling,who's doing some like social
advocacy.
(31:58):
You know like to show up tothose things for students.
Speaker 2 (32:01):
You know, I wanted to feel.
I wanted to feel like if ourprogram didn't exist, this
community would really be up aCreek.
That's how I want it.
Speaker 3 (32:13):
I wanted to feel like I think you love the
self-importance that you feel.
You see what I have to dealwith.
You love a little pat on theback.
You want to be.
Speaker 2 (32:24):
You want to be don't you have a meeting to go to you?
Speaker 1 (32:27):
are definitely brothers.
I love that.
Speaker 2 (32:30):
You want to be needed .
I think you spilled some grapesall over your jacket, by the
way.
Speaker 3 (32:37):
Let's unpack that.
You want to be needed.
Leave us alone.
Gosh, leave, go Bye.
Okay, all right.
All pack that you.
You want to be needed, leave usalone, okay, all right.
All right, I gotta jump becauseI gotta go interview somebody
else, but, man, you should.
This has not, this has not tobe the light like we have to do
this again yeah, we're gonnayeah y'all, yeah, yeah y'all
(32:57):
keep talking, i'll'll jump off,definitely Just let me know.
Speaker 2 (32:59):
Thank you uh, no, okay, so I, I like that, that
(34:02):
idea right of like, like a.
I want, I want a program to beso influential in the
communities that they're in thatif the program was gone, the
universe, I mean the communitywould struggle, you know, they
would feel it you know, I meanthat's a perfect, perfect way of
(34:22):
like thinking, really like thatshows how much of an impact you
are making and, like you know,that makes we try yeah, we try,
and we try to train our studentsto do the same thing.
You know what I mean, um, butyou know, man, we so, we've,
we've sat in each other'soffices crying about students.
Yes, we did, we've, we didwe've, like, man, how long and I
(34:49):
know we've talked about thisbefore but like, how, um, how do
you orientate yourself towardstraining a student?
Right, and that's a complicatedquestion.
But like, are you, are youthinking I am training a
(35:13):
technician?
Are you thinking I am traininga clinician?
Are you thinking I'm training aresearcher?
Because you guys have masterstudents and doc students and I
know that like shifts, you know,but like what do you?
what are you focused on?
Speaker 1 (35:31):
I guess the technical terminology and I'm going to
use both of them.
That are two ways of saying it.
Um, and I believe in both.
Like you know they, they callit scientist, practitioner and
also practitioner scientistscientist yeah, um, it is a lot
more complex than just think.
(35:51):
One aspect, because the type ofwork we do or our profession,
particularly at the doctorallevel, when you work with
doctoral students, lots ofdifferent hats come into the
picture.
And kind of going back to whatwe have been talking about, like
I was going to say I'm going totie it to what we were talking
(36:14):
about right before Julius left.
Students might look like theydon't have lots of say in these
cultures or communities.
I just don't agree with thatpiece because they do have a lot
of say Because, like you know,they are a very critical
(36:37):
stakeholder.
Just like you said, removestudents.
We don't mean anything if youask me yeah, man, yeah, just
like you said, remove students.
We don't mean anything if youask me yeah, man, yeah, like we
are in an education, umeducational setting without
students, like research is justdry and like that's my opinion,
again, like you, know as acounselor, educator.
(36:59):
So, like going back to yourquestion, I believe in coming
from all angles.
Like you know, whatever I'mworking with them, if I'm
teaching, for example, doctorallevel research class but it is
not just research we are talkingabout over here.
Like you know, I need to tapinto their clinical mindset.
(37:19):
I need to tap into their, like,teaching mindset.
I need to tap into theirclinical mindset.
I need to tap into theirteaching mindset.
I need to tap into theiradvocate mindset so that they
can think about what they areconceptualizing from different
angles, because what we do is alot more complex than these.
(37:40):
Are the relationships betweenthese two variables, or, like,
when you put these together.
This leads to this.
Those are important to know too.
I just believe that what we dois a lot more nuanced than that
I agree, man.
Speaker 2 (37:55):
Yeah, it's.
It's interesting because Ithink you and I both teach the
research classes.
You teach a research class, Iteach their research classes.
Speaker 3 (38:00):
You teach a research class.
Speaker 2 (38:01):
I teach a research class and I feel like whenever
I'm teaching it, I'm trying to,I'm trying to turn the students
into nerds.
Speaker 1 (38:12):
And you're doing it at the master's level, right At
the master's level, which isvery critical.
Yeah, I love it.
Speaker 2 (38:17):
It's super critical Because they come in so scared
of research and I know mystudents are listening to the
podcast, probably they're goingto listen to this episode and
I'm teaching them research inthe summer.
I just finished teaching themtheories.
I won't have them next semesterBecause the way that we set up
our program is I teach themevery other semester, and we do
that intentionally.
(38:38):
We have faculty teach themevery semester, unfortunately,
you know, we have faculty, heteach them every semester, and
then we have some faculty whotheir teaching style better
suits a student whenever theyget to the second year of the
program, and so they teach himfor the second year and so I get
to teach him in their firstclass.
(38:58):
And then I get to teach themevery other semester until they
get to their last class, youknow, but when I'm teaching the
research class, I am trying toturn them into nerds, trying to
get them to tap into why we'redoing this research.
And even if you don't doresearch but you consume it, and
you consume it for your clients, then you need to understand
what's good, what's bad researchyou know, what's poor research?
(39:22):
I guess is probably a better wayto put it.
But there are layers to likewhat you're trying to touch in a
student's lived experiencethroughout the program in each
class you know, I don't know,and I don't know if you
experience this as well.
I feel like sometimes studentsjust want you to just teach them
(39:48):
, especially the scared studentsyou know, they just just give
me the information.
You know, like I don't want youto touch my soul, I don't want
you to change my mind if you'retalking about research.
Speaker 1 (39:59):
research cannot be taught that way.
I know, In my experience atleast.
I will give you all theknowledge I have, and still.
Speaker 2 (40:09):
I know, but I think no class can be taught that way.
Definitely not.
You know what I mean.
Speaker 1 (40:18):
No, you and I are on the same page.
You know that, yep.
Speaker 2 (40:21):
Yep, yep, but do you feel like?
Students like the students whocome in and they submit to that
process, I feel like have abetter chance of like not just
learning the information, butlike integrating it into, like
(40:42):
how they exist yep, definitely,because, like I, it is
interesting coming from turkey,obviously, um, having my
master's degree over here andcoming to the us.
Speaker 1 (40:53):
My master's degree was a lot more research focused.
So I, when I came to the statesto pursue my phd, I was already
a researcher.
So, like, I already did severaldifferent research studies and
I had an understanding of how toconceptualize research, which
evolved over the years.
But the piece is, I wasn't asscared of research as my peers
(41:17):
were, or I wasn't as hateresearch as they did.
Speaker 2 (41:22):
Yeah, I feel like I'm trying to seduce them into
loving research sometimes I loveto say demystify research,
because I think, what really?
Speaker 1 (41:32):
happens.
Since our master's programs aremore clinically focused
programs, research is very muchat the back burner and sometimes
we also don't do a good job.
In my opinion, again, differentprograms does different work
and, like I'm pretty sure thereare programs, they are doing a
wonderful job.
But I frequently question howmuch we are able to help them
(41:58):
understand what they do in acounseling room is not really
free from what they do inresearch.
Yes, I use the wordconceptualizing research.
We conceptualize clients.
Speaker 2 (42:11):
Gosh.
Speaker 1 (42:12):
Same mentality, like it is.
Like you know, we focus ondifferent information, we put
those information together andwe have a treatment plan.
We do exactly the same thing inresearch and I usually like to
make those connections.
That doesn't eliminate thechallenge of learning the
research language or eliminatethe challenge of understanding
(42:34):
different designs and how eachdesign has its own processes and
mindsets, but normalizing thosepieces like you were talking
about, like normalizing, it'sokay, because very frequently we
think about numbers and, likeyou know, the majority of us
don't like numbers.
Speaker 2 (42:54):
hence, we are drawn to social sciences I know, man,
it's the, it's the right andwrong of it you know that I feel
like we're in every other place, like in the counseling
training experience.
There's like gray area and Ithink students see research and
think that it's black and whitewhich is really it's just not
(43:15):
man.
No, no, no.
Okay, so I have anotherquestion how long do you think
you can keep doing this?
Speaker 1 (43:27):
Being a faculty.
Speaker 2 (43:29):
And this is what I mean.
This is what I mean right,because, like we've, we all of
who we are, it's like in thetraining experience you know
what I mean.
We don't put a PowerPoint upand just read from the
(43:52):
PowerPoint.
It's like you know you're,you're trying to like.
When students graduate, I thinkthey would equally say that
they know who we are.
There's an emotional investment.
There's an emotional investment.
There's an emotional investmentyeah.
And some students, some wholecohorts are harder to attach to
(44:16):
than others, you know, you knowand you know, it's that.
Speaker 1 (44:30):
it's that like friction between and being able
to to do it and but then watchthem grow.
It's just a lot, yep, you know,I don't know.
Speaker 2 (44:34):
I don't want you to put a number on it yeah, like
don't put a number on it, butbut do you feel like like
there's some days I wake up andI go I can do this forever.
And there's some days I wake upand I'm like I'm going to put a
(44:55):
PowerPoint up and you know whatI'm going to do.
I'm going to have each studenttake a chapter.
I'm gonna split them up intogroups.
I'm gonna take a chapter andtalk about it and I'm just gonna
sit and I'm gonna grade you onpresentations.
You know what I mean, becausethere's some faculty who do that
(45:15):
, you know, and it's that theydon't teach, they just show up
and you know whose group isdoing chapter 13 a day.
You know, yeah, and you knowwhose group is doing chapter 13
a day.
Speaker 1 (45:25):
You know, um, yeah, and you know, what you're
describing is like you know,very much like being again human
and yeah being a professionaland there are so many different
things that we are doing and youare specifically focusing on
teaching part in a faculty'slife and so after graduating
(45:48):
from the doc program, some of myum colleagues now take faculty
positions and then come back tome in a few years and they're
like I had no idea.
I had no idea you all weredoing these and I'm like yeah
mm-hmm yeah.
Speaker 2 (46:03):
Do you ever lay it out for your students?
Speaker 1 (46:05):
I mean, I try to give them as much access as possible
so that they would understand,and, at the same time, finding
that balance like you know howmuch is too much to share,
because that's benefiting me,that I'm getting it out of my
chest, and sometimes it doesn'tmake sense Because, like,
(46:27):
particularly doctoral studentsare in this unique position of
like one foot in as a facultyand one foot is in the student
side and they do lots ofdifferent things we are doing
and I sometimes say and by nomeans I'm trying to be um
minimizing without theresponsibility, like you know,
(46:48):
yeah, and like deadlines arepretty much set for them and,
like you know, they have thework they are doing.
Then, becoming a faculty, nowyou have all these
responsibility.
You need to teach, you need todo research, you need to do
service.
Depends on your position.
There's so much happeningservice at the university level,
service at the regional level,national level, international
(47:12):
level, it is, it can be a lot.
But if we were to focus onteaching, I frequently think and
every year I'm like next year,year, I'm going to look at this
and I'm going to improve thispart, and then that year comes
and so much is happening and Ido a little bit change, tweaks
and other stuff.
(47:32):
Still, it is working out well.
I wish I had more time.
That's what I'm trying to say.
I wish I had more time to beable to put effort into my
teaching.
Speaker 2 (47:44):
I know, right, it feels like each semester I'm
doing the best that I can andmaking some transitions.
But, like you said, I did I andman I overshared in class, I
think maybe like two or threeweeks ago.
You know students, you knowthey asked, they were like you
(48:08):
know what all do you do?
You know, and I wasn't evenreally thinking about it, you
know I was like, oh yeah.
So, like you know, this is whatwe do and I kind of broke it
down into the areas like youtalked about.
You know teaching, scholarship,you know service,
administrative stuff, and thenyou know all of the other stuff
that we do and I wasn't reallythinking about it.
(48:29):
You know, like I was just kindof talking and sharing and I
think I even got on the boardand like wrote down, like I know
, I know I did, I broke it downand I was like and it was, I
wasn't even I mean it was, itwas, it was a mixture of like
(48:52):
pity.
Speaker 1 (48:58):
Some of them were impressed.
Speaker 2 (48:59):
Some of them were like some of them were like oh
my God, how do you sleep?
You know, I, and.
But I think one of the thingsthat like made me feel like
shame I guess it's like is is Isaw them communicate he's
(49:22):
unavailable, you know.
You know, what I mean.
And even though I am you know,it's kind of like oversharing in
session sometimes.
It makes your clients go likeoh well, I'm not going to tell
you about my stuff.
You know, yeah, it'sheartbreaking, it is, and that
heartbreaking it is, and that isthe other thing.
Speaker 1 (49:46):
I'm glad you are mentioning this.
I think, in different timeframes, in different
environments, we all do this,yeah, and it depends on where we
do, which student level we do,in which context we do.
It might actually yielddifferent, different reactions,
(50:07):
but it ties back to, don't youthink that it really ties back
to that culture piece.
Like you know, somehow there'sso much going on that we do so
much to demonstrate thatexcellence or productivity or
(50:27):
whatever it is that, um, there'snot enough time in a day to
like take a little bit of abreak and like breathe.
And I sometimes feel like ifthe days were 48 hours, we would
again, like you know, sleep,let's say, 16 of that hours, but
we would still work.
(50:47):
Um, yeah, because work is thereand there's so much going on
and it's somehow I don't know ifit is um, it is more related to
moving, progressing in ourprofessional trajectories, but
somehow too much is happeningand it keeps growing.
(51:08):
It just doesn't slow down.
I don't know what is that about.
Speaker 2 (51:13):
I know, I don't know, it's like a rash or something,
it just keeps like the to-dolist.
But the students, you know, andI think, like the you know,
it's almost like just you know.
But the students, you know, andI, and I think, like the you
know, it's almost like um, youknow.
Speaker 1 (51:27):
I mean, I think our kids are about the same age,
right like uh mine is a littleyounger than yours, but your
little one is younger than mine,I think yeah, I think valence
three I want to say, but then,yeah, you know we have charlotte
who's?
Speaker 2 (51:42):
one, but uh, yeah, but but, we're two, okay, yeah.
So there's that like.
There's that feeling like whenyou, you know your kid wants
something and they come up toyou and they're asking but
you're busy, you know, and youhave to, you have to kind of,
you can't be available a hundredpercent of the time.
(52:04):
You know what I mean, and soyou do have to disappoint them.
You know, like, and because youneed you, you gotta, you know,
do this thing, or take this callor answer this email or do
something.
You know.
And the look on their face, youknow, when you're like, just
give me a second.
You know.
And the look on their face, youknow, when you're like, just
give me a second.
(52:24):
You know.
That's the feeling you know youget and you, you want, you want
students to.
I think what I really want isfor them to know that this is
what I really want to be doingis sitting in an office with
them on a whiteboard talkingabout theories.
You know what I mean and and Iwant them to want to be invested
(52:50):
enough to want that you know.
And I want to also model forthem how this is part of growing
up professionally.
You know they will have to sayno to clients because they just
don't have the space of the timeyou know what I mean.
(53:10):
And so you, there's some shameand some guilt in this training
experience that and I'm gonnabring it back for a circle that
I don't think other programsfeel in the same way that we do
you?
Speaker 1 (53:27):
are making a great point.
Yeah, you are also like talkingabout your personal experience
of like all these processes, andit is not that cut and dry for
us as counselor educators thatyou know I don't have time.
I know you're going through arough time right now yeah, but
(53:47):
it's five o'clock, I don't havetime.
Sorry, I need to I need toactually, or it is not my job to
focus on your personal stuff,like you know it's not within
the realm of our, our work.
That's the gray area you weretalking about.
That's like personal andprofessional to a degree
intertwined in what we are doing.
(54:09):
And I'm not saying there are noboundaries.
Boundaries are there and Ithink we and they're important.
Yes and very important and, atthe same time, we also want to
attend to those personalprocesses, because they are part
of what we are doing and wecannot ignore that piece.
Yeah, definitely, and I think,also like it is necessary for
(54:33):
our students to know that manyof us majority of us are in this
for very similar reasons, thatthey are in this Like we have
that common passion to make animpact or help others.
It might look differently indifferent settings, in different
(54:54):
situations.
What we do, Like you said you,you in your office, and over the
years, what I stopped doing isto be in my office because I I
like to keep my door open whenthe door is open yeah, come on
in I prioritize talking to mystudents over the emails or what
I need to get done at a certaintime frame.
(55:18):
so instead I started to actuallyschedule meetings and, like you
know, a majority of my studentsknow they can shoot me an email
and we will schedule a meetingand this meeting they will get
my undivided attention.
Yes, but in my position I'mable to do it At this point.
I wouldn't be able to do asmuch.
Last year around this time.
(55:39):
Your position is different.
Last year around this time,your position is different and
it's like you know, you have aupper admin responsibility which
is consuming, I assume yeah,it's so consuming.
Speaker 2 (55:50):
Yeah, it really is yeah in a different in a
different way than you know, Iexpected yep, you know what I
mean and uh, and I think that'sthe, that's the.
Where it comes from is that youjust feel pulled away from them
.
You know Um and um and this islike I mean we're, we're, we're
(56:12):
growing counselors, we're notmaking them, you know, like
we're growing them, and so yougotta like, tend the fields you
know, and so anyway, all right,I know it's been an hour, man.
Speaker 1 (56:28):
I know we got it.
Speaker 2 (56:30):
I know we got it, I think we got to have you back on
again because I really want toknow maybe, even maybe, next
time we talk we can talk aboutlike the doc program and you
know, know how to how to becomea good faculty member.
Um, I know we shared a lotabout our experience, but um any
closing thoughts or words forthe listeners.
(56:51):
Most of our listeners aregraduate students, counselors
out in the field or doc students.
Anything you feel like you justwant to share with them.
Speaker 1 (56:59):
I mean, it's just like we we all are here to
support each other.
I think we really need toremember that piece.
Like faculty you mentionedivory tower.
It is so easy to put faculty onpedestal and look up to faculty.
I mean, respecting each otheris the basics of what we are
doing, but we are all humanbeings too and we have off days
(57:24):
too, just like you described,and some days we also don't want
to do things and we might havea lot going on on our plates.
And at the same time, I think,as long as we keep each other in
mind and keep supporting eachother and giving the benefit of
doubt when things did not go theway we had hoped, I think
(57:49):
that's what we can do as acommunity, and I'm all about
building those communities andcreating a space where we all
can support each other with ourstrengths, because I think our
students bring such a wonderfulenergy that sometimes what we
have just described, while thatsucks out, sucks the energy out
(58:10):
of us.
Our students actually fill inus with that energy and I I
think that's what keep us goingyeah, I love that.
Speaker 2 (58:19):
All right.
Well, hey, thanks for.
Hey, thanks for listening Thankyou, kevin, of course, man,
we're going to have you hereagain.
Speaker 1 (58:25):
I will be glad to.
Speaker 2 (58:26):
Okay.
Well, we'll see y'all next time.
Speaker 1 (58:29):
Okay, see you next time.
That's it, man.
Thank you too.
Okay, take care.
Speaker 2 (58:32):
I think you can just leave.
I think there's like a littlesection up there.
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