December 11, 2025 • 30 mins
Building Influence and Navigating Career Growth with Katherine Cook
In this episode of The Two Piers Podcast, host Erica D’Eramo sits down with Katherine Cook, a career coach who helps engineers rethink their career paths, build influence, and navigate corporate environments more effectively. Drawing from her own journey from engineering to technical marketing, product management, and ultimately coaching, Katherine shares practical and candid insights into what it really takes to grow your career—at any stage.
What We Cover in This Episode
- Katherine’s unexpected shift from engineering into coaching—and the spreadsheet that started it all
- Why understanding your “why” makes career decisions clearer (and less terrifying)
- How to assess risk realistically using worst-case scenario planning
- Why networking feels uncomfortable for many engineers
- Practical, low-pressure ways to build meaningful professional relationships
- The role of networking in job mobility and career advancement (hint: it’s bigger than you think)
- The unique challenges Black women face in corporate America—and how diverse networks can help
- How resilience, curiosity, and strategic relationship-building shape long-term career success
- Why corporate America isn’t a meritocracy—and what to do with that truth
Key Takeaways
- Your career path doesn’t need to be linear; it needs to be intentional.
- Networking isn’t about small talk at happy hours—it’s simply building genuine relationships.
- Most career opportunities come through people, not job postings.
- Being effective in your role is important, but managing yourself and your relationships is essential.
- You can influence your career trajectory more than you think—especially when you understand the landscape you’re operating in.
About Our Guest
Katherine Cook is a career coach who specializes in helping engineers identify their strengths, navigate transitions, and build fulfilling careers. She brings a structured, pragmatic approach rooted in her technical background, combined with deep experience supporting professionals in complex corporate environments.
Connect with Katherine:
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Erica D'Eramo (00:04):
Hello and welcome to the Two Piers podcast. I am
your host, Erica D'Eramo, andtoday we have guest Katherine
Cook joining us. Katherine is acareer coach who helps engineers
reimagine their possibilitiesand confidently step into roles
that energize them. Katherine'sknown for her belief that it's
never too late to re engineeryour career. She's here to talk
(00:25):
to us today about buildinginfluence for all stages in your
career, especially for thoseengineer and technical types out
there.
Katherine, so good to have youon the podcast. Thanks for
joining us.
Katherine Cook (00:46):
Thanks for having me.
Erica D'Eramo (00:48):
Yeah, I, you know, I love to connect with
another engineer type, and Ilove to connect with another
coach, and you are like both inone. So this is just such a
special treat for me.
Katherine Cook (01:00):
It's nice to connect. Yeah, I love connecting
with other engineers and othercareer types and living in the
same even area New England.
Erica D'Eramo (01:07):
Yeah, I know I get the question a lot when I
work with folks, how did you gofrom engineering to coaching?
That seems like such a hugejump, and I have to laugh every
time, because, I mean, itdoesn't seem like a huge jump to
me. It makes total sense. ButI'm curious. Let me, let me pose
that question to you. What'syour story? How did you get? How
(01:28):
did you go from engineer tocoach?
Katherine Cook (01:31):
Well, I definitely get why people ask
the question, because it is kindof a huge jump. It's so the way
I did it was, I was an engineer,and it's a huge jump, but it
makes sense for me, if you lookat what is my driver, and I
always want to know why. And asan engineer, I was working doing
(01:53):
what I needed to do, but Ididn't know why. I didn't know
why I was making the productlook like this. Or who cares? Or
why is it important? So Idecided I needed to get closer
to the customer side to find outwhy. And then once I was there,
that was actually my big leap,was from engineering into
(02:14):
technical marketing. And then Iwas for a while where I was
answering why to customers, andable to speak to the products.
And that kind of progresseduntil eventually I was in
product management, and that'swhen I realized, okay, now I'm
no longer at a spot that quitematches my skill set to the
(02:37):
role, and that's when I you'regoing to be shocked. I created a
spreadsheet. Everything can be aspreadsheet, all of my skills,
all of the different roles inthe world, and eventually came
down to somebody said, trycoaching. And did my research,
(02:58):
went to school, got thecertification. Here I am.
Erica D'Eramo (03:02):
I'm laughing out loud because folks who have been
listening to the podcast for awhile know that I talk about my
spreadsheet that I used when Idecided to leave and so many
people at the time I was workingin mergers and acquisitions, but
I had been dabbling in coaching.
I knew I was interested in it.
It seemed like a supportmethodology that seemed really
(03:23):
effective to me, and it's what Ihad been looking for when I
didn't have that support in mycareer. So... But when I decided
to leave corporate, so manypeople were like, This is so
risky. How could you take thisrisk? And the irony is, my
background was in riskmanagement, and not just, you
(03:43):
know, health and safety riskmanagement, but enterprise risk
management. So you betterbelieve I had, like, a
spreadsheet with my worst case,credible scenarios, and all of
the different risk scenarios andmy different impact categories,
and they were like, you know,living an unfulfilled life was a
type of impact that I didn'tthat was a high probability and
(04:03):
a high impact severity. So Iscored everything, and I looked
at it, and I was like, does thatfeel right? Does that gut feel
feel right? And it did. And Iwas like, okay, well, the clear,
clear numerical answer is I needto go do this whole time.
Katherine Cook (04:19):
Okay, yeah, that I like that too. I did have my
spreadsheets. Everything can bea spreadsheet, and my
spreadsheet also looked at oneof, one of the biggest things I
think that's helped my life, isthe answer, why not? What's the
worst that could happen? So alot of things I've tried, it's
been because what is, what's theworst that could happen? I was
(04:43):
coaching before, and eventuallydecided I did not want to be HR
and IT so what's the worst thatcould happen? I went back and
took corporate for a while, andthen eventually decided, You
know what? This isn't what Iwant. I miss working for myself.
Now I'm working for myself. Ofwhat's the worst that can
happen? I will. I will be fine.
I will. If the whole worldcollapses, then I will be living
(05:06):
at my parents house with plentyof food and shelter and love.
Erica D'Eramo (05:15):
Yeah, I think talking being actually realistic
about that worst case scenario,that worst case, credible that I
talk about, can be reallyilluminating, because sometimes
we just sense there's like amonster under the bed. You know,
it's like a scary thing, andthen when we actually shine a
light on it and we say, okay,let's play this out. What's it
really gonna look like, andwhat's the probability, and how
(05:35):
many stop gaps do you havebefore you get there? And that's
why it cracks me up when peopleare like, Oh, but coaching and
engineering are so different.
I'm like, are they?
Katherine Cook (05:45):
Yeah, especially engineering management. Oh, and
don't get me wrong, I have nodesire to be something's very
wrong if I'm living at myparents house, but it is just if
the worst happens. And I thinkit's not as different as people
may think, because engineerstend to be very caring. When
(06:05):
we're in school, we're workingin teams. We're helping each
other out. It's it's a verycompetitive, merit based system,
but people tend to help eachother. So going into coaching is
about helping each other,teaching each other, helping
moving everyone along. So justlike engineering,
Erica D'Eramo (06:29):
Yeah, there are a lot of similarities, I think the
problem solving orientation, thecuriosity, the why. Like, those
are all. Those are all verysimilar characteristics, but
shifting from the practitionerview of like how we ended up
here, I'm curious what dei whatare some of the challenges that
you see with your clients?
Because I know we're talkingabout engineers here, but, but I
(06:49):
think that this is really morebroadly, a topic that a lot of
folks probably find challenging,especially if they're coming
from a technical background orsomething that's, you know, more
of the more of that, likerational process, systems driven
and and then we're like, okay,now, go do influence. Go do
(07:13):
peopling. Okay, but your careeris going to depend on it, so
better do it well. So what areyou what are you saying out
there in the world?
Katherine Cook (07:26):
The number one thing I that I'm trying, that
I'm working with my clients withis networking. I know nobody
wants to network. I say it andpeople start to get visceral
reactions. I can see them kindof curl up, but it's necessary.
The corporate America is not ameritocracy. We wanted to be a
(07:48):
meritocracy. Engineer isn'tschooling. It is in schooling.
It's a meritocracy. So the onewho has the higher grades gets
the better researchopportunities, gets more grants,
all of those things, but incorporate America, yes, your
skills and your experience playin but also, do people like you?
(08:09):
Do they want to work with you?
Do they do they want you on yourteam? And that's where
networking comes in, becausenetworking is about building
relationships. I mean, I don'tlike the what we've done with
the word networking, because ithas kind of become a pejorative.
But if you think aboutnetworking in just building
(08:29):
relationships with people youwant to talk to, then that feels
easier, and it's absolutely whatis meant by networking?
Erica D'Eramo (08:43):
Yeah, I mean, to switch this out of a human
networking realm. If we were toview systems, we almost always
would find that a system that isnetworked is more resilient
because you have different touchpoints, right? Like, you can't
take the system down all at oncebecause there's like, one single
point of failure. It'snetworked, there's more agility
(09:05):
and sustainability in thatsystem. And so as you were
talking about networking fromyou know, because when I hear
networking, I think like, oh, Ihave to go to a happy hour, I
have to talk to people aboutthings I don't care about. I
have to wear, like,uncomfortable shoes, and maybe
this waistband is going to diginto my waist, and oh, just when
can I be done with it? But whenI hear about like, how do I
connect with other humans to bemore effective in the world, to
(09:29):
lean on them, to get theirinsights, to offer my insights,
to offer my support, then that'smuch more motivating for me.
Katherine Cook (09:38):
And one of my clients recently decided to take
up knitting, and so going to theknitting circle that she enjoys,
that's networking.
Erica D'Eramo (09:48):
Yeah!
Katherine Cook (09:48):
She peopled.
She's doing life, doing things,no matter what you're doing, if
you're out enjoying your life,when you talk to people that is
networking.
Erica D'Eramo (10:01):
It's funny, we had a corporate recruiter on the
podcast. She's been on twice.
Actually, her name is YaelIffergan, and she was bringing
up this very point about peoplethink networking has to be like
a happy hour, but if you'retalking to your you know stylist
at the salon, that's part ofyour network, like the humans
that are in our circles are partof our network. So all right, so
(10:23):
then what once folks maybeunderstand that the concept is
broader than just like, youknow, stuffy happy hours or golf
outings or whatever, which Inever learned how to golf. My
mother's still sad about this,but I refuse. I love a driving
range. I can't I can't deal withwalking around a bunch of grass
(10:45):
all day, but to each their own.
So once you broaden people'shorizons around what networking
is and the definition of that,what do you find is most
effective for people in actuallydoing the thing, like doing the
networking or doing the careeradvancement.
Katherine Cook (11:02):
I think the next thing has been practicing
talking to people that theydon't know. So even when I'm
going to a thing, I want to goto that music festival.
Networking involves talking tosomebody, the person next to
you, who you do not know. So howto strike up conversations with
(11:22):
strangers and feel comfortable,and no one wants to ask, What
about the weather? And, youknow, just stupid small talk.
How was your day? I want a realconversation. Most engineers
want a real conversation. And sohow do you jump into that with a
stranger? And I found thathonestly, a lot of people want a
(11:46):
real conversation. So havingsomething that you genuinely
want to ask. I'm in an at amusic event. Hey, what do you
think of this band? I don't knowif I've seen that guitarist
before. I'm in a knittingcircle. What kind of thread I
don't knit? What kind of yarn doyou use? Anything that is
(12:09):
relevant to where you are in thecircumstances? It can be used as
a networking question. I oftenlike to I when I'm at a
networking event, I will asksomeone, yeah, with that way the
economy is going, how is yourbusiness doing? We've skipped
past all the small talk. I don'tcare if the economy is doing
(12:30):
well, doing poorly, somehow it'saffecting their business. And
now we're in a realconversation,
Erica D'Eramo (12:38):
Yeah, I think it's um, it's funny, because I
sense a lot of the resistancearound it, or the hesitation, I
should say, around engaging inconversation is like, I don't
know what to say. And, ofcourse, as coaches, we're like,
well, then just ask a question.
Like, you don't have to have theanswer. You can just ask a
question. And people, people dotypically want to talk about the
(13:01):
things that they are interestedin, and so we can ask questions
like that. In all of thoseexamples, it's something
somebody is there, so clearlythey're interested in that
thing, I would assume. But evenif you don't know if you're in a
situation at a work event, youcan just keep it really benign
and generic of like, so what areyou excited about right now? Or,
(13:25):
like, what's, what's yourspecial interest at the moment?
Or what are you, what's feelingimportant to you at the moment?
And and just doesn't even needto be topic oriented, it can,
kind of, you can let them choosewhere they want to go with it.
Katherine Cook (13:42):
I actually was hanging out with some friends,
and I asked everyone, so whatare you looking forward to? And
one of them was struck by, okay,that's, that's, but that's a
good question, okay, and then westarted talking about what
everyone's looking forward to.
Erica D'Eramo (13:55):
I think, especially in this, in an
environment where there's lotsof stressful news, there's lots
going on in the world. It canfeel like even more daunting,
because what if I pick a topicthat's sad for somebody or
stressful for somebody, and whatif I, you know, say the wrong
thing. So I love the orientationaround like, what are you
(14:18):
looking forward to? What are youlike? What's and this is really
maybe a little awkward, and juststay, like, in a happy hour,
like, what are you proud of? ButI do think just even orienting
and saying, I love hearing whatpeople are proud of. So what are
you, what's something you'relike, super proud of right now,
I would love to hear about it
Katherine Cook (14:38):
Well, and also you don't have to jump into
something. I one exercise I havewith my clients is baby steps.
Go out in the world and talk tofive people, five strangers, and
these people, you will never seethem again. So who cares if it
goes badly? And just justpractice come back with
something that you've learnedabout each person and you and it
(15:03):
always goes so much better thanthey think. One person ended up
in a conversation with a personwith a couple at a fast food
place, and the two of them endedup being something where it
seemed very fortuitous that theyall met somebody else ended up
in a conversation about 80scandy with the cashier at the
(15:28):
Seven 11 loved the conversation.
They will never see these peopleagain, but it was just they
found that once they just triedit with some strangers, where
there were no stakes here. Thatwas much easier than they
thought.
Erica D'Eramo (15:44):
Yeah, I mean, so I had a client, a new client
today, who made a comment of,well, it's funny, because this
is actually a theme that'scoming up in a lot of my
coaching conversations at themoment, about, you know, I hate
BS-ing, I don't, you know, Idon't want to have to do the
like, small talk. I don't wantto like, Why do I have to be
(16:05):
friends with people that I workwith? This is work. This is
professional. And so we talkedthrough some of the why behind
it. We said building influenceand effectiveness. But I the the
client made a comment of like,well, I'm an introvert, you're
clearly an extrovert. And I hadto laugh, because, like,
actually, I am a super bigintrovert. I find it pretty
(16:27):
exhausting, because I care alot, right? Like, because I I am
focused and engaged. And it'snot just like a flippant
conversation. So it can beenergetically, like, expensive
for me to chat with people. ButI think that what you're talking
about, like just doing smallbits here and there just helps
to sort of lower the stakes alittle, normalize it a little
(16:51):
but it doesn't even have to beabout introvert, extrovert,
right? Like this. Can we canfind ways to relate to humans
regardless of where we fall onthat spectrum?
Katherine Cook (17:01):
Yeah, I actually a lot of people say, Oh, you
must be an extrovert. No, no, Iactually, if you look at some of
my profiles, they will put metowards the extrovert, which
really I questioned. But thenwhen you look deeper, do people
drain your energy if I go to aparty. Yes, my energy is
completely drained. Do not talkto me the next day. I don't want
(17:24):
to hear from anyone. But one onone, I'm great one on one. I
love one on one. I coach becauseit's one, you know, one on one,
small groups and so, no, youdon't have to be friends with
everybody at work, but there'sgot to be someone that seems
interesting when I do go to themassive networking events, my
goal is to find two people andhave a real conversation with
(17:47):
two people. Once I have thosetwo people, I can go home again,
introvert, extrovert, find a wayto make it work for you.
Erica D'Eramo (17:59):
Yeah, and what's the prize for folks? I mean,
definitely the network ishelpful because, like we said,
you, you never know who's goingto be the next person that helps
bring that idea to bear orconnect you with that next job
opportunity. But ultimately,like, if people, if people learn
how to connect with other humansin the in the workplace or the
(18:19):
professional realm, where do yousee that bearing fruit for them?
Katherine Cook (18:23):
Well, I mean several places. One there is,
let's say, if someone's lookingfor a job, 75 to 80% of jobs
right now are bound throughnetworking, the application
tracking system. The 75% ofapplications get rejected, so
rejected before they even seesomeone. And then at work, when
(18:48):
you're thinking about a team,let's say you as an individual
are building a team. Are youadding the person you don't
like, that person that's beensurly themselves and you don't
like them, you don't want to addthem that new project that seems
really cool that they're pickingsomeone for, they're going to
pick people that they liketalking to, and feel like it
(19:09):
will be collaborative. So thatis, those are, those are great
reasons that network, well, notnetworking, beginning
networking, buildingrelationships. Building
relationships and you can workbetter with people, and that you
can in and out of the companycan work better.
Erica D'Eramo (19:28):
I do want to say too, because I think especially
for some of my clients who arefacing like a double bind, or
where they might maybe theywon't be seen as likable, right?
And like, I think that can beokay, as long as people know
what to expect with you and theylike your brain. You know the
(19:48):
brand, I guess I'm using thatterm loosely, but I might be
like oil and water with someonehopefully, though I might
consider adding them to my team.
Um, because of that right, thatdissonance might be fruit,
fruitful, as long as Iunderstand, like, okay, they are
a hard worker, they are honestor truthful, or they have, like,
(20:09):
a good work ethic or a corevalue that aligns with our
mission. So I think you know,you mentioned people opting, you
know, bringing you into thecircle. It's kind of like
letting people know who you areand what to expect, even if,
even if, like we don't, we'renot going to hang out on Friday
(20:31):
night and grab drinks. That'sokay, right?
Katherine Cook (20:36):
I mean, when I say, build relationship, not
necessarily become the newbestie, but in that situation,
right? Someone you you may notlike them, but I'm like, you
respect them so you know whothey are, you respect who they
are, and so you are bringingthem on the team.
Erica D'Eramo (20:53):
Yeah, yeah, I agree. And that's, that's where
I think that people are probablyless like, ironically, in some
cases, people are less likely totake a chance on a completely
unknown entity than sort of anentity that they know, even if,
even if, we might not be kind ofbubbly or friendly or whatever
(21:15):
it's it's about like creatingthat track record, or the trust
that what you see is what youget, or like, I know what to
expect with this person,
Katherine Cook (21:25):
The devil that you know, versus the devil that
you don't know.
Erica D'Eramo (21:30):
Yeah, I could see a lot of my like clients being
like, I'm just never going to belike, I'm never going to be
somebody who people want to befriends with or something like
that. But it's really like, Arepeople clear, though, on what
you can bring to the team, andhave you built it doesn't need
to be friendship. Have you builtenough trust that when you make
(21:52):
a mistake, people might give youthe benefit of a second doubt
when you need to ask a favorthat they understand it, this
will be reciprocal. It's notjust, you know, transactional.
Katherine Cook (22:01):
And does someone like you? Not everybody, but if
you have someone who likes you,that person is probably
advocating for you. Oh, yeah, Iknow they're Prickly, but
they're really good at what theydo. So I you know you may want
to consider them for their team,because they're prickly, but
they'd be a good additionbecause someone wants you.
Erica D'Eramo (22:23):
Yeah, somebody's advocating for you. I agree. I
think one of the things that youand I have laughed about in the
past, which is the thiscommonality that I see around a
lot of folks who are, like,very, very smart and very have a
lot of expertise in theirsubject matter area, and they
bump up against this element oflike, but I'm right, but I'm I'm
(22:47):
correct, and I'm like, Yep,good, yep, gold star. So, like,
when you talked about school andthe meritocracy, it made me
laugh, because I'm like, yes, inschool, right? Like, yeah, gold
star. A plus. Now, what?
Katherine Cook (23:04):
My grandpa had a great saying about that, God, I
wish I remember when I waslearning how to drive, and it
was how basically that whenyou're driving, you can be
completely in the right. Thatdoes not mean you won't die if
somebody else is completely inthe wrong.
Erica D'Eramo (23:23):
Yes, I love that analogy. That's really that is
so apt, right? Because, like,I'm not saying, you know,
sometimes I say, like, well, ifyou have to choose between being
right or being effective, like,what's the choice here, and it's
not that I don't mean likemanipulating. I don't mean being
(23:47):
disingenuous or betraying yourvalues or anything like that. I
literally just mean, yes, great,you were right, correct. And now
what like, what are you gonna dowith that? Because if you die on
that hill and you burn all yourbridges, now what, like, we
haven't being right is notenough, I think, is kind of the
thing. It's the ability tocommunicate with people and
(24:10):
bring them to your side so thatthey can see the vision. So,
like, I differentiate a lotbetween, like, being right and
being effective. And that seemslike it's such a new concept.
Sometimes it's like when we whenwe've just taken a lot of exams,
or it's all very quantitative orbinary, like, yes, no, right,
wrong, correct answer, incorrectanswer. The idea of like, you
(24:32):
can be right. And also, this isnot effective at all. It's like
new to some people. Okay, so Iadmittedly work with quite a few
clients that do work on therelationship building. I find
this is especially the case withblack women that I work with. I
see it as well with black menthat I've worked with
(24:53):
expectations of behavior.
Different people get punished indifferent ways or pay different
penalties. And so I do see quitea few women. That are trying to
be likable or trying to work onrelationships, and maybe they're
not having the outcomes orexpectation outcomes that they
would expect or that we wouldhope for. What are what's your
advice there? Like, what haveyou seen that's worked for them?
Katherine Cook (25:14):
So I completely understand where you're going,
especially for black women,there's that angry black woman
stereo stereotype.
Erica D'Eramo (25:21):
Yep...
Katherine Cook (25:22):
That and as a black woman at work, sometimes
if you raise your voice just alittle bit or just get a little
upset, now suddenly you'refighting against that. But I'm
not an angry black woman. I justhappen to disagree with you so
and even when you're doing yourbest to build the relationships
again corporate America, it'snot fair, it's not a
(25:43):
meritocracy. So sometimes that'snot working, in which case I
say, build different networks,because if the one you're
building isn't working for you,there's another one somewhere.
What's where some of theadvocacy groups have come in and
have helped me with differenttools that I could use. Talked
(26:06):
to people outside myorganization about what are they
doing, and then that giving mesome tools for how I can advance
myself, how I can present myselfin a way that gets me on those
teams. Sometimes it's a matterof finding the person, finding a
(26:28):
really influential person, andbuilding a relationship with
them, as long as it would begenuine, but building a genuine
relationship with someone whohas influence, a mentor or
someone like that. If therelationship is not genuine, it
will come across and it willhurt you.
Erica D'Eramo (26:51):
Yeah, I do agree with that. When it's like
transactional, or I call itextractive, almost like, really,
even relationships where oneperson maybe has a lot more
wisdom or a lot more experience,or even a power differential. It
can still be a reciprocalrelationship. You know? It can
still there can still be benefiton both sides. And I think that
that's that investment. Not justlike, What am I getting from
(27:12):
this, but how do I invest intothe relationship?
Katherine Cook (27:15):
Absolutely!
Erica D'Eramo (27:17):
Yeah, I I have to, I find in coaching, I do
have to do some self managementas a human because I get so
frustrated. And I do, you know,I talk a lot about like, you can
be right, or you can beeffective, but ultimately, like,
if there's not a pathway tosuccess, like, if you're trying
(27:38):
to convince stakeholders ofsomething that they are
unwilling to believe, ie, thatyou are a a like, talented
person deserving of opportunityand development. Then you have
to make your decisions based onthe landscape available and what
opportunities you have availableand like, maybe take that
(27:59):
investment and put it somewhereelse. I say that it's not always
available to everyone,especially when the economy is
rough, but that's why I thinkyour message around network is
so powerful, because this is notthis survival in this world. Is
not an individual sport, yeah.
Katherine Cook (28:18):
And honestly, sometimes when it gets like
that, I say, look at yourselfand look at your goals. What
skills do you need, and how canyou get them out of this
organization and do your best toget that knowledge that you need
and you may and then make yourown decisions. So maybe it's in,
(28:41):
maybe it's out, but that is agreat way to keep yourself
moving forward in your career.
Erica D'Eramo (28:47):
I agree. Yeah, I agree. All right, so I'm
interested in the I talk aboutthe mind wipe as people are
listening, and then they turnoff the podcast. What's the one
thing that they should retainfrom our conversation today,
what's the one key insight thatyou want folks to walk away
with?
Katherine Cook (29:05):
Corporate America is not a meritocracy.
It's about having skills, havingexperience and having people
like you. So buildingrelationships is critical.
Building genuine relationshipsis critical to getting wherever
it is you want to go on theteam, in, in the promotion,
wherever.
Erica D'Eramo (29:26):
Yeah, words of wisdom for people to take away
with them. And if folks want toconnect with you, if they if
they are wanting to re-engineertheir career, how should they
connect with you? Where can theyfind you?
Katherine Cook (29:39):
Well, my website is easy,
Katheringcookcoaching.com, andalso I'm on LinkedIn as K Cook
coaching, where I put up lots ofvideos and tips and tricks on
networking, a lot of othertopics for for the techno for
engineers that are trying to getmore out of their profession.
Erica D'Eramo (30:00):
Awesome. I love that we'll link to that in our
show notes. Folks can find asummary of this episode on our
website as always, and links toconnect with Katherine. And I
really appreciate you taking thetime to come and connect as a
fellow former engineer turnedcoach who is probably still
doing some engineering in a in adifferent capacity these days.
Katherine Cook (30:22):
Oh, we're always an engineering party, always.
Erica, it's been a pleasure.
Erica D'Eramo (30:29):
Thanks. Thanks, and we'll see our listeners next
episode.
Hello and welcome to the Two Piers podcast. I am
your host, Erica D'Eramo, andtoday we have guest Katherine
Cook joining us. Katherine is acareer coach who helps engineers
reimagine their possibilitiesand confidently step into roles
that energize them. Katherine'sknown for her belief that it's
never too late to re engineeryour career. She's here to talk
(00:25):
to us today about buildinginfluence for all stages in your
career, especially for thoseengineer and technical types out
there.
Katherine, so good to have youon the podcast. Thanks for
joining us.
Katherine Cook (00:46):
Thanks for having me.
Erica D'Eramo (00:48):
Yeah, I, you know, I love to connect with
another engineer type, and Ilove to connect with another
coach, and you are like both inone. So this is just such a
special treat for me.
Katherine Cook (01:00):
It's nice to connect. Yeah, I love connecting
with other engineers and othercareer types and living in the
same even area New England.
Erica D'Eramo (01:07):
Yeah, I know I get the question a lot when I
work with folks, how did you gofrom engineering to coaching?
That seems like such a hugejump, and I have to laugh every
time, because, I mean, itdoesn't seem like a huge jump to
me. It makes total sense. ButI'm curious. Let me, let me pose
that question to you. What'syour story? How did you get? How
(01:28):
did you go from engineer tocoach?
Katherine Cook (01:31):
Well, I definitely get why people ask
the question, because it is kindof a huge jump. It's so the way
I did it was, I was an engineer,and it's a huge jump, but it
makes sense for me, if you lookat what is my driver, and I
always want to know why. And asan engineer, I was working doing
(01:53):
what I needed to do, but Ididn't know why. I didn't know
why I was making the productlook like this. Or who cares? Or
why is it important? So Idecided I needed to get closer
to the customer side to find outwhy. And then once I was there,
that was actually my big leap,was from engineering into
(02:14):
technical marketing. And then Iwas for a while where I was
answering why to customers, andable to speak to the products.
And that kind of progresseduntil eventually I was in
product management, and that'swhen I realized, okay, now I'm
no longer at a spot that quitematches my skill set to the
(02:37):
role, and that's when I you'regoing to be shocked. I created a
spreadsheet. Everything can be aspreadsheet, all of my skills,
all of the different roles inthe world, and eventually came
down to somebody said, trycoaching. And did my research,
(02:58):
went to school, got thecertification. Here I am.
Erica D'Eramo (03:02):
I'm laughing out loud because folks who have been
listening to the podcast for awhile know that I talk about my
spreadsheet that I used when Idecided to leave and so many
people at the time I was workingin mergers and acquisitions, but
I had been dabbling in coaching.
I knew I was interested in it.
It seemed like a supportmethodology that seemed really
(03:23):
effective to me, and it's what Ihad been looking for when I
didn't have that support in mycareer. So... But when I decided
to leave corporate, so manypeople were like, This is so
risky. How could you take thisrisk? And the irony is, my
background was in riskmanagement, and not just, you
(03:43):
know, health and safety riskmanagement, but enterprise risk
management. So you betterbelieve I had, like, a
spreadsheet with my worst case,credible scenarios, and all of
the different risk scenarios andmy different impact categories,
and they were like, you know,living an unfulfilled life was a
type of impact that I didn'tthat was a high probability and
(04:03):
a high impact severity. So Iscored everything, and I looked
at it, and I was like, does thatfeel right? Does that gut feel
feel right? And it did. And Iwas like, okay, well, the clear,
clear numerical answer is I needto go do this whole time.
Katherine Cook (04:19):
Okay, yeah, that I like that too. I did have my
spreadsheets. Everything can bea spreadsheet, and my
spreadsheet also looked at oneof, one of the biggest things I
think that's helped my life, isthe answer, why not? What's the
worst that could happen? So alot of things I've tried, it's
been because what is, what's theworst that could happen? I was
(04:43):
coaching before, and eventuallydecided I did not want to be HR
and IT so what's the worst thatcould happen? I went back and
took corporate for a while, andthen eventually decided, You
know what? This isn't what Iwant. I miss working for myself.
Now I'm working for myself. Ofwhat's the worst that can
happen? I will. I will be fine.
I will. If the whole worldcollapses, then I will be living
(05:06):
at my parents house with plentyof food and shelter and love.
Erica D'Eramo (05:15):
Yeah, I think talking being actually realistic
about that worst case scenario,that worst case, credible that I
talk about, can be reallyilluminating, because sometimes
we just sense there's like amonster under the bed. You know,
it's like a scary thing, andthen when we actually shine a
light on it and we say, okay,let's play this out. What's it
really gonna look like, andwhat's the probability, and how
(05:35):
many stop gaps do you havebefore you get there? And that's
why it cracks me up when peopleare like, Oh, but coaching and
engineering are so different.
I'm like, are they?
Katherine Cook (05:45):
Yeah, especially engineering management. Oh, and
don't get me wrong, I have nodesire to be something's very
wrong if I'm living at myparents house, but it is just if
the worst happens. And I thinkit's not as different as people
may think, because engineerstend to be very caring. When
(06:05):
we're in school, we're workingin teams. We're helping each
other out. It's it's a verycompetitive, merit based system,
but people tend to help eachother. So going into coaching is
about helping each other,teaching each other, helping
moving everyone along. So justlike engineering,
Erica D'Eramo (06:29):
Yeah, there are a lot of similarities, I think the
problem solving orientation, thecuriosity, the why. Like, those
are all. Those are all verysimilar characteristics, but
shifting from the practitionerview of like how we ended up
here, I'm curious what dei whatare some of the challenges that
you see with your clients?
Because I know we're talkingabout engineers here, but, but I
(06:49):
think that this is really morebroadly, a topic that a lot of
folks probably find challenging,especially if they're coming
from a technical background orsomething that's, you know, more
of the more of that, likerational process, systems driven
and and then we're like, okay,now, go do influence. Go do
(07:13):
peopling. Okay, but your careeris going to depend on it, so
better do it well. So what areyou what are you saying out
there in the world?
Katherine Cook (07:26):
The number one thing I that I'm trying, that
I'm working with my clients withis networking. I know nobody
wants to network. I say it andpeople start to get visceral
reactions. I can see them kindof curl up, but it's necessary.
The corporate America is not ameritocracy. We wanted to be a
(07:48):
meritocracy. Engineer isn'tschooling. It is in schooling.
It's a meritocracy. So the onewho has the higher grades gets
the better researchopportunities, gets more grants,
all of those things, but incorporate America, yes, your
skills and your experience playin but also, do people like you?
(08:09):
Do they want to work with you?
Do they do they want you on yourteam? And that's where
networking comes in, becausenetworking is about building
relationships. I mean, I don'tlike the what we've done with
the word networking, because ithas kind of become a pejorative.
But if you think aboutnetworking in just building
(08:29):
relationships with people youwant to talk to, then that feels
easier, and it's absolutely whatis meant by networking?
Erica D'Eramo (08:43):
Yeah, I mean, to switch this out of a human
networking realm. If we were toview systems, we almost always
would find that a system that isnetworked is more resilient
because you have different touchpoints, right? Like, you can't
take the system down all at oncebecause there's like, one single
point of failure. It'snetworked, there's more agility
(09:05):
and sustainability in thatsystem. And so as you were
talking about networking fromyou know, because when I hear
networking, I think like, oh, Ihave to go to a happy hour, I
have to talk to people aboutthings I don't care about. I
have to wear, like,uncomfortable shoes, and maybe
this waistband is going to diginto my waist, and oh, just when
can I be done with it? But whenI hear about like, how do I
connect with other humans to bemore effective in the world, to
(09:29):
lean on them, to get theirinsights, to offer my insights,
to offer my support, then that'smuch more motivating for me.
Katherine Cook (09:38):
And one of my clients recently decided to take
up knitting, and so going to theknitting circle that she enjoys,
that's networking.
Erica D'Eramo (09:48):
Yeah!
Katherine Cook (09:48):
She peopled.
She's doing life, doing things,no matter what you're doing, if
you're out enjoying your life,when you talk to people that is
networking.
Erica D'Eramo (10:01):
It's funny, we had a corporate recruiter on the
podcast. She's been on twice.
Actually, her name is YaelIffergan, and she was bringing
up this very point about peoplethink networking has to be like
a happy hour, but if you'retalking to your you know stylist
at the salon, that's part ofyour network, like the humans
that are in our circles are partof our network. So all right, so
(10:23):
then what once folks maybeunderstand that the concept is
broader than just like, youknow, stuffy happy hours or golf
outings or whatever, which Inever learned how to golf. My
mother's still sad about this,but I refuse. I love a driving
range. I can't I can't deal withwalking around a bunch of grass
(10:45):
all day, but to each their own.
So once you broaden people'shorizons around what networking
is and the definition of that,what do you find is most
effective for people in actuallydoing the thing, like doing the
networking or doing the careeradvancement.
Katherine Cook (11:02):
I think the next thing has been practicing
talking to people that theydon't know. So even when I'm
going to a thing, I want to goto that music festival.
Networking involves talking tosomebody, the person next to
you, who you do not know. So howto strike up conversations with
(11:22):
strangers and feel comfortable,and no one wants to ask, What
about the weather? And, youknow, just stupid small talk.
How was your day? I want a realconversation. Most engineers
want a real conversation. And sohow do you jump into that with a
stranger? And I found thathonestly, a lot of people want a
(11:46):
real conversation. So havingsomething that you genuinely
want to ask. I'm in an at amusic event. Hey, what do you
think of this band? I don't knowif I've seen that guitarist
before. I'm in a knittingcircle. What kind of thread I
don't knit? What kind of yarn doyou use? Anything that is
(12:09):
relevant to where you are in thecircumstances? It can be used as
a networking question. I oftenlike to I when I'm at a
networking event, I will asksomeone, yeah, with that way the
economy is going, how is yourbusiness doing? We've skipped
past all the small talk. I don'tcare if the economy is doing
(12:30):
well, doing poorly, somehow it'saffecting their business. And
now we're in a realconversation,
Erica D'Eramo (12:38):
Yeah, I think it's um, it's funny, because I
sense a lot of the resistancearound it, or the hesitation, I
should say, around engaging inconversation is like, I don't
know what to say. And, ofcourse, as coaches, we're like,
well, then just ask a question.
Like, you don't have to have theanswer. You can just ask a
question. And people, people dotypically want to talk about the
(13:01):
things that they are interestedin, and so we can ask questions
like that. In all of thoseexamples, it's something
somebody is there, so clearlythey're interested in that
thing, I would assume. But evenif you don't know if you're in a
situation at a work event, youcan just keep it really benign
and generic of like, so what areyou excited about right now? Or,
(13:25):
like, what's, what's yourspecial interest at the moment?
Or what are you, what's feelingimportant to you at the moment?
And and just doesn't even needto be topic oriented, it can,
kind of, you can let them choosewhere they want to go with it.
Katherine Cook (13:42):
I actually was hanging out with some friends,
and I asked everyone, so whatare you looking forward to? And
one of them was struck by, okay,that's, that's, but that's a
good question, okay, and then westarted talking about what
everyone's looking forward to.
Erica D'Eramo (13:55):
I think, especially in this, in an
environment where there's lotsof stressful news, there's lots
going on in the world. It canfeel like even more daunting,
because what if I pick a topicthat's sad for somebody or
stressful for somebody, and whatif I, you know, say the wrong
thing. So I love the orientationaround like, what are you
(14:18):
looking forward to? What are youlike? What's and this is really
maybe a little awkward, and juststay, like, in a happy hour,
like, what are you proud of? ButI do think just even orienting
and saying, I love hearing whatpeople are proud of. So what are
you, what's something you'relike, super proud of right now,
I would love to hear about it
Katherine Cook (14:38):
Well, and also you don't have to jump into
something. I one exercise I havewith my clients is baby steps.
Go out in the world and talk tofive people, five strangers, and
these people, you will never seethem again. So who cares if it
goes badly? And just justpractice come back with
something that you've learnedabout each person and you and it
(15:03):
always goes so much better thanthey think. One person ended up
in a conversation with a personwith a couple at a fast food
place, and the two of them endedup being something where it
seemed very fortuitous that theyall met somebody else ended up
in a conversation about 80scandy with the cashier at the
(15:28):
Seven 11 loved the conversation.
They will never see these peopleagain, but it was just they
found that once they just triedit with some strangers, where
there were no stakes here. Thatwas much easier than they
thought.
Erica D'Eramo (15:44):
Yeah, I mean, so I had a client, a new client
today, who made a comment of,well, it's funny, because this
is actually a theme that'scoming up in a lot of my
coaching conversations at themoment, about, you know, I hate
BS-ing, I don't, you know, Idon't want to have to do the
like, small talk. I don't wantto like, Why do I have to be
(16:05):
friends with people that I workwith? This is work. This is
professional. And so we talkedthrough some of the why behind
it. We said building influenceand effectiveness. But I the the
client made a comment of like,well, I'm an introvert, you're
clearly an extrovert. And I hadto laugh, because, like,
actually, I am a super bigintrovert. I find it pretty
(16:27):
exhausting, because I care alot, right? Like, because I I am
focused and engaged. And it'snot just like a flippant
conversation. So it can beenergetically, like, expensive
for me to chat with people. ButI think that what you're talking
about, like just doing smallbits here and there just helps
to sort of lower the stakes alittle, normalize it a little
(16:51):
but it doesn't even have to beabout introvert, extrovert,
right? Like this. Can we canfind ways to relate to humans
regardless of where we fall onthat spectrum?
Katherine Cook (17:01):
Yeah, I actually a lot of people say, Oh, you
must be an extrovert. No, no, Iactually, if you look at some of
my profiles, they will put metowards the extrovert, which
really I questioned. But thenwhen you look deeper, do people
drain your energy if I go to aparty. Yes, my energy is
completely drained. Do not talkto me the next day. I don't want
(17:24):
to hear from anyone. But one onone, I'm great one on one. I
love one on one. I coach becauseit's one, you know, one on one,
small groups and so, no, youdon't have to be friends with
everybody at work, but there'sgot to be someone that seems
interesting when I do go to themassive networking events, my
goal is to find two people andhave a real conversation with
(17:47):
two people. Once I have thosetwo people, I can go home again,
introvert, extrovert, find a wayto make it work for you.
Erica D'Eramo (17:59):
Yeah, and what's the prize for folks? I mean,
definitely the network ishelpful because, like we said,
you, you never know who's goingto be the next person that helps
bring that idea to bear orconnect you with that next job
opportunity. But ultimately,like, if people, if people learn
how to connect with other humansin the in the workplace or the
(18:19):
professional realm, where do yousee that bearing fruit for them?
Katherine Cook (18:23):
Well, I mean several places. One there is,
let's say, if someone's lookingfor a job, 75 to 80% of jobs
right now are bound throughnetworking, the application
tracking system. The 75% ofapplications get rejected, so
rejected before they even seesomeone. And then at work, when
(18:48):
you're thinking about a team,let's say you as an individual
are building a team. Are youadding the person you don't
like, that person that's beensurly themselves and you don't
like them, you don't want to addthem that new project that seems
really cool that they're pickingsomeone for, they're going to
pick people that they liketalking to, and feel like it
(19:09):
will be collaborative. So thatis, those are, those are great
reasons that network, well, notnetworking, beginning
networking, buildingrelationships. Building
relationships and you can workbetter with people, and that you
can in and out of the companycan work better.
Erica D'Eramo (19:28):
I do want to say too, because I think especially
for some of my clients who arefacing like a double bind, or
where they might maybe theywon't be seen as likable, right?
And like, I think that can beokay, as long as people know
what to expect with you and theylike your brain. You know the
(19:48):
brand, I guess I'm using thatterm loosely, but I might be
like oil and water with someonehopefully, though I might
consider adding them to my team.
Um, because of that right, thatdissonance might be fruit,
fruitful, as long as Iunderstand, like, okay, they are
a hard worker, they are honestor truthful, or they have, like,
(20:09):
a good work ethic or a corevalue that aligns with our
mission. So I think you know,you mentioned people opting, you
know, bringing you into thecircle. It's kind of like
letting people know who you areand what to expect, even if,
even if, like we don't, we'renot going to hang out on Friday
(20:31):
night and grab drinks. That'sokay, right?
Katherine Cook (20:36):
I mean, when I say, build relationship, not
necessarily become the newbestie, but in that situation,
right? Someone you you may notlike them, but I'm like, you
respect them so you know whothey are, you respect who they
are, and so you are bringingthem on the team.
Erica D'Eramo (20:53):
Yeah, yeah, I agree. And that's, that's where
I think that people are probablyless like, ironically, in some
cases, people are less likely totake a chance on a completely
unknown entity than sort of anentity that they know, even if,
even if, we might not be kind ofbubbly or friendly or whatever
(21:15):
it's it's about like creatingthat track record, or the trust
that what you see is what youget, or like, I know what to
expect with this person,
Katherine Cook (21:25):
The devil that you know, versus the devil that
you don't know.
Erica D'Eramo (21:30):
Yeah, I could see a lot of my like clients being
like, I'm just never going to belike, I'm never going to be
somebody who people want to befriends with or something like
that. But it's really like, Arepeople clear, though, on what
you can bring to the team, andhave you built it doesn't need
to be friendship. Have you builtenough trust that when you make
(21:52):
a mistake, people might give youthe benefit of a second doubt
when you need to ask a favorthat they understand it, this
will be reciprocal. It's notjust, you know, transactional.
Katherine Cook (22:01):
And does someone like you? Not everybody, but if
you have someone who likes you,that person is probably
advocating for you. Oh, yeah, Iknow they're Prickly, but
they're really good at what theydo. So I you know you may want
to consider them for their team,because they're prickly, but
they'd be a good additionbecause someone wants you.
Erica D'Eramo (22:23):
Yeah, somebody's advocating for you. I agree. I
think one of the things that youand I have laughed about in the
past, which is the thiscommonality that I see around a
lot of folks who are, like,very, very smart and very have a
lot of expertise in theirsubject matter area, and they
bump up against this element oflike, but I'm right, but I'm I'm
(22:47):
correct, and I'm like, Yep,good, yep, gold star. So, like,
when you talked about school andthe meritocracy, it made me
laugh, because I'm like, yes, inschool, right? Like, yeah, gold
star. A plus. Now, what?
Katherine Cook (23:04):
My grandpa had a great saying about that, God, I
wish I remember when I waslearning how to drive, and it
was how basically that whenyou're driving, you can be
completely in the right. Thatdoes not mean you won't die if
somebody else is completely inthe wrong.
Erica D'Eramo (23:23):
Yes, I love that analogy. That's really that is
so apt, right? Because, like,I'm not saying, you know,
sometimes I say, like, well, ifyou have to choose between being
right or being effective, like,what's the choice here, and it's
not that I don't mean likemanipulating. I don't mean being
(23:47):
disingenuous or betraying yourvalues or anything like that. I
literally just mean, yes, great,you were right, correct. And now
what like, what are you gonna dowith that? Because if you die on
that hill and you burn all yourbridges, now what, like, we
haven't being right is notenough, I think, is kind of the
thing. It's the ability tocommunicate with people and
(24:10):
bring them to your side so thatthey can see the vision. So,
like, I differentiate a lotbetween, like, being right and
being effective. And that seemslike it's such a new concept.
Sometimes it's like when we whenwe've just taken a lot of exams,
or it's all very quantitative orbinary, like, yes, no, right,
wrong, correct answer, incorrectanswer. The idea of like, you
(24:32):
can be right. And also, this isnot effective at all. It's like
new to some people. Okay, so Iadmittedly work with quite a few
clients that do work on therelationship building. I find
this is especially the case withblack women that I work with. I
see it as well with black menthat I've worked with
(24:53):
expectations of behavior.
Different people get punished indifferent ways or pay different
penalties. And so I do see quitea few women. That are trying to
be likable or trying to work onrelationships, and maybe they're
not having the outcomes orexpectation outcomes that they
would expect or that we wouldhope for. What are what's your
advice there? Like, what haveyou seen that's worked for them?
Katherine Cook (25:14):
So I completely understand where you're going,
especially for black women,there's that angry black woman
stereo stereotype.
Erica D'Eramo (25:21):
Yep...
Katherine Cook (25:22):
That and as a black woman at work, sometimes
if you raise your voice just alittle bit or just get a little
upset, now suddenly you'refighting against that. But I'm
not an angry black woman. I justhappen to disagree with you so
and even when you're doing yourbest to build the relationships
again corporate America, it'snot fair, it's not a
(25:43):
meritocracy. So sometimes that'snot working, in which case I
say, build different networks,because if the one you're
building isn't working for you,there's another one somewhere.
What's where some of theadvocacy groups have come in and
have helped me with differenttools that I could use. Talked
(26:06):
to people outside myorganization about what are they
doing, and then that giving mesome tools for how I can advance
myself, how I can present myselfin a way that gets me on those
teams. Sometimes it's a matterof finding the person, finding a
(26:28):
really influential person, andbuilding a relationship with
them, as long as it would begenuine, but building a genuine
relationship with someone whohas influence, a mentor or
someone like that. If therelationship is not genuine, it
will come across and it willhurt you.
Erica D'Eramo (26:51):
Yeah, I do agree with that. When it's like
transactional, or I call itextractive, almost like, really,
even relationships where oneperson maybe has a lot more
wisdom or a lot more experience,or even a power differential. It
can still be a reciprocalrelationship. You know? It can
still there can still be benefiton both sides. And I think that
that's that investment. Not justlike, What am I getting from
(27:12):
this, but how do I invest intothe relationship?
Katherine Cook (27:15):
Absolutely!
Erica D'Eramo (27:17):
Yeah, I I have to, I find in coaching, I do
have to do some self managementas a human because I get so
frustrated. And I do, you know,I talk a lot about like, you can
be right, or you can beeffective, but ultimately, like,
if there's not a pathway tosuccess, like, if you're trying
(27:38):
to convince stakeholders ofsomething that they are
unwilling to believe, ie, thatyou are a a like, talented
person deserving of opportunityand development. Then you have
to make your decisions based onthe landscape available and what
opportunities you have availableand like, maybe take that
(27:59):
investment and put it somewhereelse. I say that it's not always
available to everyone,especially when the economy is
rough, but that's why I thinkyour message around network is
so powerful, because this is notthis survival in this world. Is
not an individual sport, yeah.
Katherine Cook (28:18):
And honestly, sometimes when it gets like
that, I say, look at yourselfand look at your goals. What
skills do you need, and how canyou get them out of this
organization and do your best toget that knowledge that you need
and you may and then make yourown decisions. So maybe it's in,
(28:41):
maybe it's out, but that is agreat way to keep yourself
moving forward in your career.
Erica D'Eramo (28:47):
I agree. Yeah, I agree. All right, so I'm
interested in the I talk aboutthe mind wipe as people are
listening, and then they turnoff the podcast. What's the one
thing that they should retainfrom our conversation today,
what's the one key insight thatyou want folks to walk away
with?
Katherine Cook (29:05):
Corporate America is not a meritocracy.
It's about having skills, havingexperience and having people
like you. So buildingrelationships is critical.
Building genuine relationshipsis critical to getting wherever
it is you want to go on theteam, in, in the promotion,
wherever.
Erica D'Eramo (29:26):
Yeah, words of wisdom for people to take away
with them. And if folks want toconnect with you, if they if
they are wanting to re-engineertheir career, how should they
connect with you? Where can theyfind you?
Katherine Cook (29:39):
Well, my website is easy,
Katheringcookcoaching.com, andalso I'm on LinkedIn as K Cook
coaching, where I put up lots ofvideos and tips and tricks on
networking, a lot of othertopics for for the techno for
engineers that are trying to getmore out of their profession.
Erica D'Eramo (30:00):
Awesome. I love that we'll link to that in our
show notes. Folks can find asummary of this episode on our
website as always, and links toconnect with Katherine. And I
really appreciate you taking thetime to come and connect as a
fellow former engineer turnedcoach who is probably still
doing some engineering in a in adifferent capacity these days.
Katherine Cook (30:22):
Oh, we're always an engineering party, always.
Erica, it's been a pleasure.
Erica D'Eramo (30:29):
Thanks. Thanks, and we'll see our listeners next
episode.
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