Ditching Diet Culture - with Keri Baker, LCSW

In this episode of the Two Piers Podcast, host Erica D'Eramo is joined by licensed clinical social worker Keri Baker to discuss the profound impact of societal messaging on body image and well-being and how these show up in our professional lives.

Together, they explore personal journeys with disordered eating, the importance of representation in body positivity work, and the impacts of societal pressures and norms. The conversation also delves into the intersections of marginalized identities, the fallacies of diet culture, and the necessity for inclusive design and mental health support. Join Erica and Keri for an insightful discussion on navigating body image issues and promoting holistic health and well-being.

You can connect with Keri via her website, www.keribaker.com, or on social media on Instagram.

Episode Transcript

Erica D'Eramo (00:00):
Hey there, it's Erica just jumping on before the
episode with a couple quicknotes. First of all, this
episode does contain discussionaround disordered eating, and
complex feelings around ourbodies and the way that society
treats people in larger bodiesand in smaller bodies. So if you

(00:20):
have a history that makes this adifficult conversation to listen
to, or it could cause more harmthan good, then please do what's
right for you. And maybe thisisn't the right time to listen
to this episode, maybe there isno right time for you. And
that's Okay. So our guestjoining us is a licensed
clinical social worker whospecializes in these issues. So

(00:43):
we do take care in theconversation. But again, just
want to put that little contentwarning out there so that people
can choose what's right forthem. And then secondly, you'll
notice at the very end of theepisode, the last few minutes of
this episode, some of the soundquality does change just due to
a recording issue we had withthe platform refreshing. And so

(01:05):
we appreciate your grace andpatience in that. I think it
primarily affects our guest'srecording, which is unfortunate,
because that's the voice that wedo really want to highlight
here. But yeah, we are supergrateful to have Keri Baker,
join us on this episode andshare her wisdom and insights.
So if you do decide to listen,we hope you enjoy the episode

(01:27):
and find as much value as wedid.
Hello, and welcome to the TwoPiers podcast. I'm your host
Erica D'Eramo. Today, we haveKeri Baker joining us as a
special guest. So Keri is alicensed clinical social worker,
intuitive eating counselor and atherapist in Tampa, Florida. Her

(01:50):
practice specializes in workingwith adults who are struggling
with a relationship with theirbodies, food and their own self
worth to ditch dieting, and nolonger believe that their lives
need to remain small.

(02:13):
So we are super excited to haveKeri on the episode today to
talk about all things showing upin the world with the bodies
that were given. Really excitedto have you on Keri, thanks for
joining us.

Keri Baker (02:25):
Thanks for having me. I'm so excited to be here.

Erica D'Eramo (02:28):
Yeah, this was an episode that I've really been
looking forward to recordingbecause I feel like in our
current world, we are justbombarded with messaging that we
are constantly taking inabsorbing without even maybe
being aware of it. And it'sshowing up in our lives in all
sorts of ways that affect justour our overall well being but

(02:51):
also our professional lives aswell. And so that's why it was a
topic that I wanted to talkabout on the Two Piers podcast.
And I think that in some ways,it disproportionately impacts
already marginalizedcommunities. It
disproportionately impactswomen. And so this was something
that yeah, I'm really excited toget your insights on.

Keri Baker (03:11):
Yeah, it's a really important topic. Obviously, I've
like focused my clinical work onthis for lots of good reasons.
Some of what you just said, so,so happy to talk about and have
any space to talk about thisstuff. I will scream it from the
rooftops.

Erica D'Eramo (03:24):
Yeah. Awesome. So tell us a little bit about
yourself and how you came intothis work.

Keri Baker (03:31):
Yeah, it's so interesting, right? Having to
kind of think back like, how didI end up here, I think about
this often. And I think aboutall the kind of like roads I
took before I got here. But thereal reason why I'm doing the
work that I'm doing now aroundfood and body is because of my
own lived experience. And it'ssuper interesting in the eating
disorders world, because that'skind of where I landed

(03:53):
clinically, I think before kindof expanding into talking more
about, like diet, culture ingeneral, and diet recovery,
which is kind of a word that I'mplaying around with. Now we'll
see if it resonates for peoplewhen I say it is because of
lived experience and the thingsthat we've kind of gone through
ourselves. I think as aclinician, we don't have to have
gone through the same thingsthat our clients have gone

(04:14):
through. And even if we havesimilar experiences, it's never
exactly the same. And when itcomes to things like body, body
image and relationship withfood, I have found that clients
really respond and people that Iwork with respond really well to
hearing some insight fromsomeone who's actually been
through it. I think it's reallyhard and part of the reason that

(04:35):
I've done this and I'll, I'llexplain a little bit more in a
sec. I happen to live in a I saya fat body and I reclaim that
word for myself as really apositive word not even just that
not negative word. And my bodyhas changed sizes a lot over my
lifetime because of chronicdieting. But I found that in the

(04:56):
in food and body and eatingdisorder spaces, there are a lot
of clinicians And with livedexperiences who happen to live
in small bodies. And again,wonderful conditions, they do
wonderful work. But when I havemet with clients who don't live
in smaller bodies, it can bereally helpful to talk to
someone who like they seethemselves in which goes for
really anything, right any kindof like marginalized identity,

(05:17):
if you're able to stick withsomeone and say, oh, like I see
this person and myself, it canmake the work a little bit
easier. I don't know if that'sthe right word, but it can make
it can just make the supportfeels a little bit different.
And when I talked about chronicdieting, for me, that looked
like probably for around 2025years, starting from like,

(05:38):
middle school aged, I was on adiet, you know, by well
intentioned adults who thoughtthat that was the right thing to
do. And I laugh because I know,my mom even told me that she's
gonna listen to this. And I saidto her, you know, I'm probably
going to talk about you a littlebit. And she understands that
it's something that we've talkedabout, right. But like, my mom,
and I went to Weight Watcherswhen I was, I believe it was

(05:59):
around middle school togetherfor the first time, right? She
thought she was doing the rightthing. It ended up kind of part
of what put me on this path todiet for a really long time.
Until I found kind of adifferent way of doing things,
which really was findingintuitive eating, and I'm sure
we'll talk a little bit moreabout that. But yeah, I mean,
that's really the story of how Ilanded here is because of the

(06:21):
years and years and years, Ispent hating my body and really
wanting to try to find adifferent way to, like live the
rest of my life. But I feel likeI've really been able to do
that.

Erica D'Eramo (06:30):
Yeah, I mean, so much of that really resonates
for me, as someone looking back,as the daughter of someone who
was always in a very small body.
What was messaged to me as beingnormal, and what my like genes
were supposed to have given mein terms of my body size, those

(06:50):
messages arrived very early inmy cognitive development. And
I'm only unpacking a lot of thatnow. And I think when I
initially reached out, I waskind of joking about the like,
overachiever, the pipeline oflike overachiever, girl to like,
overachiever, a woman tocomplicated relationships with

(07:13):
food. Because I see so much ofthis complicated relationship to
food and body in many of theclients that I work with. And
there seems to be some parallelsthere. And so this was something
that I wanted to explorefurther. You have any thoughts
on that?

Keri Baker (07:36):
Yeah, I think, you know, I think that there's so
much pressure that is put uponus by and I think the way that I
like to look at it is, and theway I talk about it with with
clients that I that I meet with,is kind of taking a look at like
all of these rules that we kindof live our lives by, and I have
an I think a lot of the rulesthat we tend to feel we have to

(07:59):
follow have to do with like,basic life needs like food,
right? The way we treat ourbody's health, right? And I put
that in quotation marks a lot,because like, what does that
even actually mean, right? Wehave this, there's this rule
that we have to look to live ina certain body to be healthy,
right? There's this rule that wehave to like, reach certain
academic goals to be successful,that we have to go to college,

(08:21):
right, that we have to go tograd school that we have to be
in certain types of careers,right, that are like good
careers that will make ussuccessful people. So I think
that's kind of where I see theconnection. So I, you know, you
wonder for, for folks who end upand maybe the type of careers
that it sounds like you liketalk to your clients about,
they've kind of followed thesame path of like, and not to

(08:41):
say that they don't love theirjobs, and that they really enjoy
it. But sometimes I wonder like,are these the choices that
people would have made forthemselves if there wasn't this
set of rules that they needed tofollow? And a lot of the food
and body stuff, I think isreally like packaged up and all
of that.

Erica D'Eramo (08:57):
Yeah, I think there's also this piece too, as
you're talking through it, it'skind of solidifying for me that
there's this piece aroundenvisioning safety within the
system, if you play by thoserules, and then we figure out
over time, that, you know,getting straight A's in school
might have given you some formof whatever safety achievement,

(09:22):
gold stars, the things we wereseeking to tell us that we were
Okay. And we were going to beOkay. And then as time
progresses and we realize thatif we follow all these rules,
maybe we won't actually achievethe safety in the environments
we're in like, even if we do getthat job, even if we do make

(09:42):
ourselves as small as possible.
Like we're not actuallyachieving that and that it's
maybe there to control us in acertain way. So I don't know
there's an evolution there, butI'm sure there was some point in
my life where I thought if Icould just follow all these
rules, I will be safe

Keri Baker (10:00):
Yeah, we don't want to be othered, right? Like,
don't be the dumb kid, don't bethe fat kid, right? Don't be the
nerd Don't be all the thingsthat we feel like, carry these
really negative connotations,right? Especially even from when
we're kids. And a lot of that ispushed, obviously, these aren't
things that we just came up withon our own, like these are
pushed by external sources inour lives, it's pushed on us by

(10:21):
again, I'm not saying thatadults are doing this on
purpose, although maybe thereare some, but I think the
majority of like parents aren't,you know, they're trying to
instill these values in theirkids and the, the way that they
talk about other people rubs offon their kids the way that they,
you know, navigate the world inthe way they talk about
relationships. So I think whatyou said about that remaining

(10:42):
small piece, right, like, I canremember being a kid, and when I
started to become aware of mybody, and being in a certain
size body, it's that feeling oflike, you can't hide, right,
people will see you, you willstick out somehow. And that's
how this idea right of beinglike in a marginalized body and
being othered in some way andfeeling different in some way. I

(11:02):
think for me, it even took me along time to be able to use that
word like to say that even beingin a fat body feels like a
marginalization, because that'snot something that's talked
about, right? We talk about, youknow, how difficult it can be to
live in, you know, disabledbodies, and to live in black and
brown bodies, right. And alllike, come with it, like such

(11:23):
difficult. such difficult thingsthat that people in those types
of bodies have to navigate.
There's something about being ina fat body because it is equated
with being unhealthy being thatit's something that you have
control over. That's reallyinteresting. And then you think
about the, theintersectionality, right,
between people who happen tolive in fat bodies and disabled

(11:43):
bodies, right, fat bodies, and,you know, otherwise marginalized
bodies. It's really, reallycomplicated. And it's just like
layers upon layers of thingsthat we have to navigate. And
it's, it's really hard. And it'ssomething that I think is being
talked about more these days.
But like when we were kids,like, nobody talked about this

(12:03):
stuff, right? We didn't knowwhat was going on why it was so
hard to navigate all of this.

Erica D'Eramo (12:08):
No, we had a food pyramid. Just eat the food
pyramid. You'll be fine. Yeah,do the sit and reach. Show us.
Your hamstrings are not tight.

Keri Baker (12:20):
I was just talking about that the other day.
Someone I'm like, do youremember that presidential test?
Like I couldn't remember theanxiety of doing that? Like what
ridiculousness?

Erica D'Eramo (12:30):
I can't believe he made us run a mile as kids
like just Yeah. Anyways. Withoutany like, build up to it. Just
go for it just run a mile today.

Keri Baker (12:40):
Yeah. And if you can't do it, something's wrong
with you. Right. Like, what'swrong with the kids who are like
last coming in and doing this?
Like, just? Yeah. Makes nosense.

Erica D'Eramo (12:49):
Yeah. Are they still doing that? Or have we
done away with the?

Keri Baker (12:53):
That's a good question. I know that I have
heard and I don't have like, Ican't like, quote, a source on
that. So exactly where it was,but some schools where they're
weighing kids, like there'sparents who I know I like in
groups and things where I watchparents talking about, like, how
do you opt your kids out of someof this kind of stuff? I've even
heard something about like, ifyou want to immigrate to maybe

(13:15):
it's New Zealand, that your BMIcan't be over a certain number,
like something crazy like that.
Yeah, you're

Erica D'Eramo (13:23):
Okay. Yeah. Yes.
So for any listeners, feel freeto go. Google dig into that one.
That's, that's crazy. Yeah. Imean, and BMI. Well, I'm sure we
will. We'll touch on howridiculous the MIS but so I, you
kind of mentioned what drew youto this work? What what has made
this important to you like thatit's become the focus of your

(13:47):
practice, because you can bedoing a lot of things as a
clinical social worker. So whatmade this worse focusing, you
know, your, your practice on?

Keri Baker (14:00):
Yeah, and I think that it did start with me
recognizing for myself how muchthis was impacting me. And now
when working with others seeingthat like, this is a universal
thing. This wasn't literallyjust like a me thing. But when I
was really actively dieting,which, and this is where things

(14:20):
get, like tricky for me, becausethe things that I was doing,
were so socially acceptable,right? So normalize. So like, I
was celebrated for doing thesethings. Again, that's not to
blame people that that weredoing those things because
they're stuck in the same dietculture cycle that I was stuck
in. But it was so celebrated andso normalized. And there were

(14:45):
times that I now knowing whateating disorders look like, like
there were times where Idefinitely could have been
diagnosed if I if I had seen theright provider at the right
time. There was a lot ofrestriction it was you know,
binge eating all of kind of theclassic things that happen But
because I wasn't in a very smallbody, because it was so
normalized. It was this was likemy life for, you know, 20 years.

(15:08):
I mean, it was every book on mybookshelf, it was everything
that I did every day, it was theconstant cycle, it was feeling
terrible about myself, I wonderif I could go back now. And I
wouldn't change anything.
Because I am glad where I'veended up. I'm glad for the
experience that I've had. But Ijust think about the years and
years and years really wasted,where my all of my mental energy

(15:29):
was put onto this. And somehow,I got really lucky. And I was
still able to function, right?
Like, medically, I was Okay. Iwas still able to, like, go to
grad school and do my internshipand get a job and like, start
having kids, right. So I feellike some of that was just luck,
and probably some good old Hardygenetics that like kept me

(15:51):
functioning. But I there was somuch time invested in that I had
no idea at the time that I kindof pulled myself out of this.
And again, I also got reallylucky that I was able to do it
with really limited outsidehelp. And I don't wish that upon
anyone, because I think thatthings could have been a lot
easier if I had found the rightpeople. And I kind of did, but I
was already already kind of aways into it. I just wonder what

(16:18):
would have happened. If I reallyhad understood things about
myself, would I have made thesame choices in life? What I
have, like felt as terriblyabout myself as I did, like, I
just didn't give myself any roomto explore any of that. So I
think now to answer to answeryour question, it was a long
winded answer. When I see peoplewho are struggling with this, I

(16:38):
know what that feels like theday to day, mental energy and
mental anguish that people gothrough when because every day
you have to eat right? But it'sdifferent than when you're
trying to you know, and likewhen we think about substance
use, right? You there aresubstances, you can stop using
them. Right? So difficult,right? So much work. But for
lots of people like you can putthat aside and kind of like

(17:00):
pivot to other places in yourlife. Like we have to eat every
day, multiple times a day, wehave to live in our body every
single second of every singleday. So when we're struggling
with these things, it isliterally taking up everything
that we've got. So when I seeclients, and it's interesting,
people will say like, Oh, whatdo you just will you work with

(17:21):
someone who like has anxiety?
Like, yeah, because every singleperson who wants to see who is
struggling for the body,like has anxiety, right?
Yeah, right. Like it is itencompasses, like every other
like comorbidity, right? Everyother type of diagnosis like
this stuff is just so common,even clients that come to see me
who are coming maybe like,quote, just for anxiety or for

(17:42):
something in their life theywant to process. I don't think I
can think of one client thatI've seen in the past where we
haven't had some kind ofdiscussion about body at some
point where there hasn't beensome comment about Yeah, maybe I
do have something going on withfood, because it is so so
prevalent. And I think thatpeople who have not been
diagnosed with eating disorders,because I've somehow flown under
the radar really fall betweenthe cracks, which is why I've

(18:06):
tried to kind of like craft, Ithink different kinds of
language. And I'm talking aboutmy practice, and that I'm really
trying to kind of get to thosepeople who are struggling. And
maybe at some point, realize I'mstruggling here and need help.
But because they're notdiagnosed, or they look at like
eating disorder language, andthey think well, that's not me,
right? Because I'm not quote,like underweight, which we know

(18:26):
that the majority of people whohave eating disorders are not,
it doesn't look the way youknow, it was really like shown
to us when we were younger,right of what someone would look
like. So I feel like thosepeople that are missing out on
getting help, because it's hardto kind of define what's going
on for them because it is sonormalized. Yeah.

Erica D'Eramo (18:46):
Yeah, I think like growing up, I had this
almost romanticized image ofwhat anorexia looked like from
you know, the after schoolspecials, or whatever, where if
someone is just wasting away,she's just so frail and
delicate, and she's, andeveryone rushes to support her
and, and get her the help, sheneeds to see that she's truly so

(19:08):
much more beautiful than shethinks she is. Like, that's not
the way stuff plays out in reallife. And almost for someone who
is struggling to feel seen inthe world, or whatever, like
that is almost, I don't know, adangerous image to be painting.
And not necessarily the warningmessage that perhaps the after

(19:30):
school after school specialsthought that they were painting
but

Keri Baker (19:33):
One part of the problem is that is that a lot of
the like, medical establishmentstill kind of sees it that way.
Right? So I think about all thedoctors I saw that like, clearly
I was struggling, but they werelike, well, you're like, you
know your BMI is high you're youknow, you're you're overweight,
whatever that looked like sothat that's like the only marker
that they're looking at andthat's not to say every medical

(19:54):
professional but it's and it'sbecause of what they're being
taught so right like the modelaround how to treat them. Eating
disorders are like, you know,body concerns, it's still just
very, they're not being taughtabout it in school. I mean, I
have more nutritional trainingthan a doctor has, right? I
believe that doctors get aboutlike a semester, if even that

(20:14):
have training in nutrition, andeven if they would get more
training and nutrition, theywould be getting it from
organizations that are not arenot talking about it in the
right way.

Erica D'Eramo (20:23):
They talk about this a lot on Maintenance Phase,
the podcast Maintenance Phase,which yes, if anyone hasn't
heard of Maintenance Phase, Ithink that's a that's a good
place to start with these topicsand to tune in. But the fact
that like, you can go to adoctor, and we'd like anything,
right, like a stubbed toe. Ihad, you know, migraines, I have

(20:45):
migraines. I remember I hadlike, like a skin irritation
that you know, every literallyeverything they're like, Well,
have you thought about losingweight? Have you thought about
losing weight? Have you thoughtabout losing weight? Like it's
the immediate answer toeverything for so many people
who present with any sort ofissue. Turns out that like skin

(21:07):
issue needed, like a $3, topicalmedication totally went away.
Right had nothing to do withweight. But it's like the first
line of questioning becausewe're only looking at outputs.
And like you said, there's noquestioning there about the
inputs, like what's happened,maybe somebody is literally
starving themselves already. Andthat's not related in the direct

(21:31):
way to the output that theythink like, which brings us to
maybe the question that weshould talk about kind of
upfront, which is what are someof the misconceptions that you
see? Because I'm starting to getinto the territory where we
should, we should probably startdebunking a couple a couple of
the myths around what this lookslike, perhaps.

Keri Baker (21:52):
Yeah, I mean, I guess the biggest one is, right,
is that being in a fat bodymeans that you're unhealthy,
right? That, that if you have orthat gaining weight is
unhealthy, that losing weightwill make you healthier, right,
we see that over and over andover again, I see that even in
people, you know, people that Ihave followed on like Instagram

(22:13):
forever, I love that that's likealways a place that I have to
reference because that's theplace where I watch people who I
don't actually know. And Ifollow like their life story,
right? People who have actuallychanged their minds, and like,
become an anti diet culture. Andthen they decide, you know,
years later, well, now I need tolose weight, because I'm because
it's going to make me healthier,right? When we look at the

(22:34):
research, and my my disclaimeris that I am not a researcher,
that would have been a coolthing to do. But I have
consulted with some people wholike this is their job. And
they've looked at the researcharound intentional weight loss,
right, so we're not talkingabout someone who's like body
just naturally changes, right?
Because bodies will change. Likewhen we say when I say to
anyone, when we're gonna startdoing work around like intuitive
eating, you could lose weight,you could gain weight, your body

(22:57):
could stay the same, like, Ihave no idea what your body is
going to do when it settles backto like, whatever natural place
it's meant to be. So when we'retalking about this, we're
talking about, like intentionalweight loss. So try like
restricting yourself in some waydoing something to intentionally
trying to shrink your body. Andwhen that research shows is
that, you know, 95% of peoplewho tried to do that
intentionally will gain thatweight back. And some people say

(23:20):
the percentage is even higher,right? So like, if you knew
going on a diet, that you had a,a 95% chance of it failing, not
because you're doing somethingwrong, but because your body
just like will not do that. Likedo you think you'd be like, Oh,
yes, it's my fault that I failedon this, right? No, like, it's
literally the research showsthat this is what happens and

(23:41):
that up to two thirds of thosepeople that gain the weight back
will gain back more weight thanthey from where they started,
right? So they end up at ahigher weight, which I know
based on my research study ofmyself, right, my weight just
every time I lost and weightcycled, right, my weight would
just go up and up and up. Theresearch shows that it's the
weight cycling really that endsup giving us like cardio

(24:02):
metabolic issues that you couldsee someone in a larger body and
doctors are going to say wellyou have this you know metabolic
issue because you're in a higherweight body but really it's
because there's been this weightcycling so it's a lot of the
like correlation is notcausation. Yes. And really
what's I think most interestingwhich I think goes back to what
you were just talking about,about being at like doctor's

(24:23):
offices and always like blamingweight is that it's the thing
that is the worst thing for ourhealth is is not the size of our
body but a lot of times it's theweight stigma that we face right
so people not going to get helpbecause they're worried about
that. I prolonged like I wasactually like in a very like
good healthy way like right likeseeing a trainer like feel

(24:45):
stronger because I was feelingreally crappy had nothing to do
with changing my body forprobably the first time ever and
then I pulled something like inmy quad right? I delayed going
to see someone I could not walk.
I was like hobbling around Idelayed by two weeks me, a
professional who is in thespace, who knows how to advocate
for myself with a doctor whoknows that it's helped bullshit

(25:08):
who like will not take shit fromanyone when it comes to this
delayed going for two weeks,because I was so mortified. And
it took me a while to realizethat that was what was going on.
But I was so worried that theywere going to tell me that, say,
make a comment about my weight.
And I just like whatever wasgoing on for me at the time, I
just could not tolerate that.
And I was thinking about, I knowthat I have an issue with my

(25:28):
knee. And I'm worried that like,at some point, I'm gonna need a
knee replacement, and my BMI. Solike, I went down this spiral of
here, all the terrible thingsthat are going to happen. So I
didn't go, right. We think aboutpeople who delay going to
doctors, when they have seriousmedical problems, and they die,
right? People find out they havestage four cancer when the
doctor has been saying loseweight, right? Like this is

(25:48):
frightening stuff. So really,when like that research shows
that it's it's really the weightstigma that is what is so bad,
like, what is so bad for us whenit comes to like our health?
Right? Again, putting it inquotes, because it's such a it's
such a loaded word. So I thinkthat would probably be the
biggest if I had to pick one.

Erica D'Eramo (26:08):
I mean, there's parallels here too, between the
the like social framework arounddisability as well, because in
many cases, it's not the quoteunquote, disability, that is the
issue. It's that it's society'streatment of that, and the way
we've structured our systems andprocesses and the physical

(26:31):
environment such that it's notwelcoming to that or it's even
actively harmful to that.

Keri Baker (26:37):
Well, the stress of that, right. Yeah, yeah, the
stress of not being able, I'myou know, I'm thinking about
someone who, like can't goupstairs, right, and the stress
of going to a building and thennot being away to get in, right?
Yeah, someone who's in a biggerbody, like needing to fly on an
airplane and like the seat belt,not fitting and not wanting to
ask for a seat belt extender,right? Because of the shame and

(26:57):
the judgment that comes aroundthat right. The world is not
built for people in otherbodies. It's built for thin,
white, right, straight bodies.
And we know that we know this,but yet we still blame
ourselves, right? We still saythis is my fault, right? It's my
fault that I need a seat beltextender, I should be I should
be doing something to shrink mybody and not saying, Well, this
is this is not set up in a waythat is conducive to actually

(27:20):
supporting like anyone whohappens to ride in this thing at
any moment in time. And we see,right.

Erica D'Eramo (27:29):
I mean, and again, like a parallel with
universal design is like havingseatbelt extenders is good for
everyone. Like it's just notthese some of these improvements
in the way we operate in theworld are make, you know, the
rising tide will lift all all ofour boats. But that brings me on
to an another thought. Andactually, this occurred to me

(27:51):
earlier in our conversation,when you were talking about the
the psychological and and mentalload that we carry, when we are
so focused on either restrictionor navigating the world and
larger bodies and how thatenergy is being funneled into

(28:15):
something that is, you know,really just us like there's it's
not impacting the world in abetter way. It's not productive
energy. It's not a productiveuse of our energy. And when you
were talking about like, whatcould you have done with that
energy, if like you it weredirected elsewhere, if we
multiply that across all of us,who are carrying this load, like

(28:39):
the difference in the worldsthat we could all be making, if
we took that mental space, thatmental workload and distraction,
and we focused it on like,achieving our goals, eliminating
world hunger, creating worldpeace, like all of these
existential things that arehappening in the world that need
our time and energy andattention. And we're distracted

(29:02):
on this. And I think I don'twant to be like a conspiracy
theorist here. But it is quiteconvenient to keep people
distracted on things. Whenthere's inequality in the world
if you can keep them distractedon fixing themselves on the
respectability politics of it onthese like hyper specific things
like the shape of your eyebrowsbetter, you know, you better

(29:24):
spend a lot of money and timemaking sure your eyebrows aren't
too pushy, or aren't the wrongcurve. You know, it gets a
little like, well, that's aconvenient coincidence.

Keri Baker (29:35):
Oh, I'm 100% in that conspiracy theory with you, and
I don't think it's a conspiracytheory. I think that there's
maybe a part of you that feelslike you have to say that or
else you're, you know, liketalking about something that
doesn't exist, right. You havethis like, you know, like almost
a caveat like, this must be somecrazy thing, right? I must not
be right. Like, I must not beright about this. But we talked
about even if we're just lookingI knew and when we talk about

(29:57):
like the diet industry, itincludes all of those things
right? beauty ideals, like thethings that are sold to us to,
like make us look, you know,change the way we look change
the way we dress. You know, thisis like, the diet industry alone
even, we're just talking aboutfood and like diet plans. I
mean, it's like a multibilliondollar industry, they are making
so much money. You think aboutit, these diet programs will say

(30:22):
this, is it right? Like, here'sthe one that works, something
new will come out. But if itworked, then you would stop
paying them. So why would theygive you something that worked?
I mean, the answer is that thereisn't something that worked. I
don't think they're like hidingsome kind of secret, because I
don't think it exists. But theywant you to continue to buy into
it, right? Like makeup brandswant you to continue, they
change things and they makethings more exciting, right?

(30:43):
There's a million differenttypes of clothing, you can buy,
they change these things so thatwe continue to buy into it like
that is 100%. purposeful, orelse what like they'd have no
business.

Erica D'Eramo (30:52):
Well, I mean, and I think like this idea of
keeping folks oppressed bykeeping them distracted and
focused on what I'll say istrivial things like the shape of
their eyebrows. While I don'tthink there's like some
committee somewhere being like,"Oh, the women are getting
uppity, like, let's throw a newbody image issue out them." And

(31:14):
I guess that's what I mean,really conspiracy. And I don't
think it's like, in athoughtfully and strategically
coordinated in some, like,large, overarching global way.
But what you mentioned is yes,the capitalism is doing it very
intentionally. There is like aMarketing Committee, with so

(31:35):
many of these companies that'slike, Okay, let's just make
women feel crappy about or menfeel crappy about XYZ, and then
we can sell them more of thisthing. So that is intentional. I
also think what's intentional ishow quickly we can use bodies to
undermine someone who is posinga threat to us, like in the
workplace, or making, you know,like, how quickly can we dismiss

(31:59):
a woman's point, if we can justsay, like, well, she's fat,
like, what do I you know, whatdo I care? She's clearly not
discipline, she's clearly notwhatever, name all of these
things that we love to throw atwomen, but in that way, we do us
act like people in poweractively. And this is not just
men doing this. Women absolutelydo it, too. I mean, it's gender

(32:21):
neutral, in my opinion, howquickly we turn appearance
against people showing up aswomen in particular, right. I
think it really there is agender difference there and how
it's used to undermine people'spoints. So yeah, in that way,
it's like, yeah, very useful andstrategically used.

Keri Baker (32:41):
Yeah, I agree. I mean, I've worked in I've worked
in a couple of different beforemy practice, I worked in
schools, and I worked inhospitals, which happened to
just by nature of like, the jobsthere were a lot of women right,
like in my social workdepartment in the hospital I
worked at for like, almost 10years. There were probably 30 of
us like it was the amount ofBody Talk the amount of looking

(33:08):
for the right word dissing otherpeople based on the things they
would wear based on the way theylooked based on like, I can
remember people making commentsabout like, the way our director
like wore her hair, like thiswas a big compensation. Like,
you know, we got to get her aflat iron kind of thing. And the
interesting part for me is tolook back is that I really like
participated in that right in myearly 20s. Like just kind of

(33:30):
went with it. I look at it nowand I'm like, damn, like I like
there was so much commentingabout Lux and about again, it's
like the rules of like, whileyou're supposed to do this
certain thing I remember at onepoint them telling us we weren't
allowed to wear leggings likegranted we were wearing like lab
coats, right? We were like onthe hospital floors like we
weren't covered up with otherthings that at one point they

(33:51):
told us we couldn't wearleggings and never really gave
us a good explanation but I'mpretty sure it was because like
leggings are tight, and likeyou're showing too much right?
Or they don't look likeprofessional in some way. And
even though I remember back thenwe'd like complained about it
but now like looking back on itit's just utter ridiculous this
this is what we spent hours andhours and hours talking about

(34:13):
when we had sick people we weretrying to care for and like do
this job. Like what adistraction. Yeah, and these
were other women coming up withthese rules to like place upon
us. It's just, it's like mindboggling to think about those
things.

Erica D'Eramo (34:26):
Even when you think about and this is, so
having worked offshore rightwhere I can I could like grab a
quick shower, throw my hair in abun, oh, my wet hair in a bun no
makeup, wear scrubs, wearcoveralls, whatever sneakers,
literally not give any morethought to my appearance than
any of the guys going from thatand toggling back and forth

(34:47):
between that and like financeroles or mergers and
acquisitions where appearancewas, you know, perfect, quote
unquote professional appearancewas very important. And, you
know, there were very fewoccasions wear jeans were Okay.
And seeing the difference in thejust the time it takes to get

(35:07):
ready in the morning, the sheertime it takes to I'm putting on
Spanx and wearing that torturedevice, you know, like all this
stuff. But like, Okay, and youstand trying to get your hair to
not be frizzy and makeup, that'snot going to be all like shiny
and runny and whatever. And ifwe just as like a little

(35:28):
analogy, a physical analogy of ameasurable amount of time that
we put into appearance and howwe show up because we fear that
rightfully, I shouldn't even sayfear, we are cognizant of how it
will impact us in in theworkplace and impact our ability
to be heard to be takenseriously to get paid. Right. I

(35:48):
mean, we I think studies haveshown to and I should find the
actual research on this, thatwomen in larger bodies are paid
less, that there is acorrelation between how between
renumeration for women, and thatis not the same for men. that

(36:08):
correlation does not existacross the across the gender
spectrum.

Keri Baker (36:13):
So it even makes me worried about Yeah, yeah. And
even make no I even makes methink about things like access,
right? Like us. I think thatpeople don't get it. Like let's
say someone who lives in alarger body. And let's say it's
someone like, again, I'm in likea mid sized fat body, right? So
I can't shop in a regular store,right? Like a size extra large,

(36:34):
and the store like does not fitme. So I need to go there. The
good news is that there arethere are more like plus sized
stores, right or there, there,there are more opportunities to
go and buy something like inperson, but it's not so easy,
right? You so I think aboutthose, those employees perhaps
right, where they're, they'rebeing judged for the size of
their body, and perhaps likewhat they're wearing, like, Do

(36:56):
you know what it's like to haveto go and try to access stuff.
So I'm thinking of someone in alarger body than me, right? Who
really does need to go onlineorder clothing that are probably
more expensive, that reallyaren't made to like be in the
types of styles that like peoplelike to wear clothing at any
given time, right? There's like,so I say it to like reiterate
that there's all these layers,right? That it's not just you're

(37:16):
in this body, but it's also whatyou have access to right. And
then there's all of thesejudgments for things that
literally you have no controlover. So it's like such an
interesting, it's such aninteresting thing. And you don't
know that until you have to livethat and be like, Oh, I can't
just go to Target. And like buymyself a t shirt because I need
something right, I'll go buymyself a nice shirt to like have

(37:37):
to wear to work today, becauseit doesn't exist for me. I like
Old Navy, right? At one point inthe last. I don't know, if it's
been more than a year I liketime is like not a thing
anymore. Like I say somethinghappened like recently, and
people are like, No, that waslike six years ago, like maybe
in the past like few years, justto have this whole campaign to
bring like, plus sides clothinginto the store and not have it

(38:01):
in like a separate section. Itwas like you would go to the
rack. And there was a size, youknow, to through, you know, 20
something. And there was likethis big celebration, right?
Everyone was so excited. Becausethe idea of being able to go
into a store and actually lookat like, Oh, here's a style I
like and they happen to my size.
And it's not off in the cornerlike in some, you know, reject
section, like they set it up,like Oh, here you go with the

(38:22):
clothes that fit you. And thenthey they took everything out.
Like I feel like it was therefor a certain amount of months,
and then they pulled it. So eventhat it's like here, let's
pretend like we give a shitabout people being like
accessibility to something assimple as clothing. Yeah. Right.
And then be like, actually,we're just kidding. We're just
gonna, we're gonna pull that up,because maybe they didn't sell

(38:44):
as much as they like hadanticipated. So they just pulled
it all out of the store. Sowhat's an actually about
inclusivity? Right, it was abouttrying to attract like more
people to their market. Yeah. SoI don't know, I'm about to get
off on a little tangent there.
But I feel like there's just somany layers even around like,
when it comes to work and whatto wear at work and showing up
at work. And, and it's yeah,it's much more complicated than

(39:06):
it seems.

Erica D'Eramo (39:07):
Well, I mean, I think it ties into this
questioning of when you initiatewhen you look at somebody who
they're like, oh, I don't know,she I don't know that she's got
what it takes her leadership,she just got like a frumpiness
or about her right. And it'slike, well, that's because
places like Old Navy think thatif you're in a larger body, the
only thing you want is likesomething with frills or
something with like floral printon it. Like I don't understand

(39:28):
why that weird thing happenswhere larger sizes just like
don't adhere to the same typesof style, like trends that are
out in the world. But thatinitial like gut reaction of
judging someone is what I thinkneeds more questioning for a

(39:50):
variety of reasons. Like whatare what are the stories you're
telling yourself about somebodywho's in a small body versus
somebody who's in a larger bodyand And is it that like the
person in the smaller body, oh,she's she's dedicated, she's
disciplined. She's XYZ, right?
She goes to the gym all thetime, I'm sure she, she really
watches what she eats, she caresfor herself, like all these

(40:12):
other stories that you tell me,that person might have hit a
genetic lottery ticket. Or theymight be literally struggling
with some illness like this ideathat you are more morally
superior, more, whateverproductive because of the
smallness of your body, this,the lack of space that you take

(40:34):
up in the world is a reallyinteresting thing that a lot of
people don't question when theystart subconsciously judging
people. And so the piece aroundthe clothing comes into because
that's just an extrapolationright of the, the whole thing
that people don't evenunderstand.

Keri Baker (40:52):
So, yeah, the opposite of that, which is fat
people are lazy and gross. Andbelieve the lazy thing is what
gets me right. Like, there, youknow, whatever, I was gonna give
an example, which doesn't evenlike prove the point. But that
is the trope. And that is whatwe are taught, right? It comes
out of people's mouths all ofthe time. Children are listening
to us say these things, right?
Even in the school, I worked atthe amount of body talk. It was

(41:15):
again, I could say it's mindboggling to me. But it's not
because I think when I firststarted changing my mind and
realizing the havoc that dietculture was playing. In my life,
I got really mad at any adpeople that were still engaging,
right, so I was pissed at my momthat like, even after I told her
what I had found that she wenton another diet, right? Like, I

(41:38):
was mad. I was so pissed atpeople. And I think I had to be
mad because sometimes you needlike that real big emotion to
actually like, have it propelyou forward into something else.
But really, these people arejust stuck like I now it's more
of like a compassionate likethat. I would not, you know, I
would not go back to that foranything, because I know how

(41:59):
terrible it was. But these arelike grown women sitting in
offices with little childrenoutside talking about the diet
that they're on, are someonecoming in who had lost a
significant amount of weight,and like commentary and talking
and having to sit and watchthat, like for me was honestly
one of the reasons why I endedup going into private practice
is that I didn't think I could,although I can tolerate it. Like

(42:19):
it's not fun to just have totolerate something. I didn't
want to have to be in an officeenvironment like that anymore.
And not everyone has thatchoice, right? I had a choice
that I could get I could leavethat. But it was even that was
triggering, right likeactivating for me like everyday
to have to kind of watch thatwas really, really difficult.

Erica D'Eramo (42:39):
I I still remember a fourth grade teacher
who would go on a cruise everyyear and talked about how she
would like starve herself beforethe cruise to lose 20 pounds or
whatever, so that she couldbinge eat during the cruise and
put it back on.

Keri Baker (42:58):
And kids remember this stuff right now like you
remember this like how

Erica D'Eramo (43:02):
Yeah, I remember.
I mean, I was what, like eightor nine or something. And I
still remember that. So that waslike 33 Four years ago.

Keri Baker (43:12):
Yeah, I can you think like when she didn't know?
Yeah, no, she didn't am sure ifshe if someone could have like
frozen time at that exact momentfor she said it and common and
said, when you say this, Ericais going to talk about this and
30 something years on a podcastand how much like no way she
would have said it. Right? Shewould have shut her mouth like,
but we they we just don't know.
Like we just don't realize andraising like raising intuitive

(43:34):
eaters. You know, I have twoyoung kids having to really pay
attention to this, even whenwe're trying to do it in our own
household. Like I know, they'reout there hearing things to
other people. And it's it'sreally, really hard to it's
worth it. But very, very hard tonavigate with kids especially.

Erica D'Eramo (43:53):
Yeah, I yeah, that's, it's interesting,
because I mean, there's a lot ofparallels there too, for all the
things that they'll face in theworld and like trying to give
them the filters to be able toeven be cognizant in a way that
we were not and who knows what,like the next generation, who
knows what we're saying topeople right now that somebody
is going to talk about on apodcast and three years, or

(44:15):
whatever the thing is, yeah.
Yeah. So I mean, I wanted totouch back on the piece around
the correlation with health andthis idea that there's a
correlation because one of theinteresting thing, things that I
saw in my and this comes to thepoint about like maybe maybe

(44:36):
just shuttered her darn mouthwhen commenting on people's
bodies. When I was in the depthsof some pretty severe eating
disorders. I used to get so manycomments about how amazing I
looked right, how healthy Iloved how it I had lost so much
weight and looked so great. Andpeople thought I looked quote

(44:57):
unquote healthy III. And at thesame time, I was eating maybe
400 500 calories a day, I waslike training for marathons
running 40 plus miles a week,like really putting myself into
actual heart, like, probablysome permanent harm. And the
idea that that was healthierthan me 20 pounds heavier, 30

(45:18):
pounds heavier, 50 poundsheavier, right, like 50 pounds
heavier, would have been muchhealthier. If I had. If I was
eating nutrients if I was likegiving my body the sustenance it
needed, if I wasn't depriving mybones of the calcium it needed
and like, I gave myself stressfractures, right from all of
that. And people are so the Ithink people are learning to not

(45:41):
comment as much about, like,weight gain, perhaps because
they feel awkward about it andgood. But I think people still
feel very comfortable commentingon weight loss. And so I want to
throw that out there. See whatyour thoughts are?

Keri Baker (46:00):
Yeah, yeah, it because I feel like it's this is
the way it is talked about. Sooften. I think that the idea of
being a smaller body beinghealthier. But we think that
literally just because it saidover and over and over and over
again, like ad nauseam withoutany we never asked for the
research on that, like, show methe research on why being in a

(46:20):
smaller body, right, becauseit's more socially acceptable.
Like all the other things wetalked about, right? It's safer,
it's easier, like all of thosethings. And I actually I just
posted about this on Instagram,I'm like, very on and off with
Instagram, but sometimes likesomething happens. And I'm like,
I must make up story and like,give this whole narrative on
this thing. But I even the otherday saw someone I think it was

(46:40):
Kelly Clarkson. I saw a pictureof her I had heard, like some
rumor that she was and I don'tlike follow celebrities, like
not my thing. But I feel like itwas like Grammys, or something
people were talking about, youknow, all these celebrities that
are on ozempic. And like theseGLP one drugs, which is like,
probably do a whole podcast onits own on that. That she had
lost weight. And I happen to seea picture of her. And she is

(47:03):
lost. Like, I mean, she looksvery, very different than she
did. And I had this internalreaction of like, jealousy, I
guess I think it's the onlylike, emotion that I could think
of, and almost like anexcitement for her. And this
part of me that like just kindof like popped up. But like,
that's, that's not how like mycore set. Like, that's not my
core belief of mine with yourvalues, are you? Yeah, but like,

(47:26):
I still have this part of methat came up and was like, Oh,
my God, and I really had to sitand like, process that. And
that's because I was taught thatright? Oh, this is so exciting
for this person. I think the waythat I talk about this with
clients, cuz I think might thismight be helpful for anyone
who's listening to this, we'relike, this is kind of new
information for them. Let's sayhypothetically, it was

(47:48):
healthier. For me to like livein a smaller body, let's say
like, let's just say I don'tthink that's true. But let's say
hypothetically, that was provensomehow that it would be
healthier for me to be in asmaller body. If you referenced
the heck of the data point thatI that I said about that it is
literally impossible, right thatonly like 5% or less of people

(48:09):
actually could achieve that. Andwhat happens instead is I'd
probably gain more weight if Itried to shrink my body again,
even if it would be healthiergetting quotes for me to live in
a smaller body, there is noworkable way or solution for me
to do that. And if I try to makean attempt to do that, what is
going to happen is I'm going toend up gaining probably more

(48:32):
weight or messing with mymetabolism or right or having
some kind of cardio metabolicproblem because of more weight
cycling and it's going to end upmaking me quote unquote less
healthy than I am now if that istrue that if the opposite is
true that getting more weightmakes me less healthy, right so
the attempt in itself of tryingto get to a smaller body is
actually going to push me in theother direction. It is not a

(48:52):
workable solution for me to beto actually shrink my body right
so what do you do instead, youfocus on other like health
promoting behaviors that havenothing to do with weight loss.
I'm never going to argue withsomeone that it's not like good
for your body to like eat morefruits and vegetables right like
I'm never going to say tosomeone you shouldn't do that
like that no like we know thatthere are great nutrients

(49:14):
there's also great nutrients andbread and cheese and all of the
other things that like we'd liketo demonize even like candy
right when I studied for like mylike my licensure test they were
like drink some juice before yougo in to do it because you need
that quick like carbohydrateburst in your brain right like
there is a use for that foreverything for any kind of like

(49:34):
macro and micronutrient we cantake in we can lean into like
gentle joyful movement, rightmaybe yoga would feel good
because I feel really tightright? Maybe running because I
really like to do that would behealth promoting behavior for
me. For me it's not healthpromoting because it hurts my
knees right so like to say thisis healthy for you to go and do
this is too much of anovergeneralization. You can

(49:56):
focus on things that are goodfor your body and that are
health promoting without havingto have anything to do with
losing weight or shrinking yourbody. So that's like the way I
typically think about it. Andit's been the way that even when
I have little parts of me thatlike to pop up that are still
tied into dye culture, because Italk to people about how like
you're trying to heal fromsomething, again, that you are

(50:16):
literally in the thick of it,day in and day out. But this is
how I this is how I likereground myself that even if it
were true, there is no way forme to do it. And I have tried. I
am not in this body now for lackof trying to make it be
different. Right. I have triedall the things. It wasn't me
that failed, it was thestrategies that just don't work.

(50:38):
So I think that's like thebird's eye view on that kind of
question.

Erica D'Eramo (50:42):
Yeah. Yeah. And I think that for the other piece
of this is that because we areso normalized to it, even even
and maybe especially those of uswho have struggled with body
image, which I don't know anyonewho hasn't struggled with body
image, but that we are notimmune from stepping in it and

(51:05):
saying things or having thatresurface. So I guess I want to
offer to people listening tojust don't ever comment on
people's bodies. Don't do it.

Keri Baker (51:18):
There's never a reason there really isn't ever a
reason to do it.

Erica D'Eramo (51:23):
Yeah, even if you think it's a compliment, right,
like, and that's where I thinkthat's where people forget that
if you think you'recomplimenting somebody, because
they lost weight, like you haveno idea. What you're really
saying is, perhaps I'm happythat navigating this world will
be a little bit easier for you,because this is the world we

(51:43):
live in right now. Right? Like,Okay, fine, but it doesn't come
across that way it comes acrossas I value you more now, because
you are in a smaller body andyou don't know why that person
is in a smaller body. You don'tknow if it's because they're
battling cancer, you don't knowif it's because they're in the
throes of a bout of, you know, asevere eating disorder, you
don't know if it's depression,you don't know, you know, like,

(52:04):
you don't know what it is. Andyou don't know that they think
it's great that they are losingweight, or whatever. So. Okay,
so with that, since we all kindof get comments about or have
gotten comments about ourbodies. Do you deal with this at
all with your clients? Or likehow they handle that because it
happens in the workplace towrite like, this isn't just our

(52:26):
friends making comments, it's,we're surrounded by it?

Keri Baker (52:30):
Yeah, I think that's a really good question. And I
think that there's a lot ofvariability about how you might
approach those kinds ofsituations, mostly, depending on
maybe where you are in like,your place of acceptance around
like, do I want to talk aboutthis? Like, what's my like,
confidence level? For me, Imight be able to, like easily
say to someone, like in a gentleway, like, you know, what I

(52:51):
really don't like to talk aboutlike bodies. I don't really like
other people's bodies, like Iyou know, if you want to, well,
I feel that way totally down forthat. But if not, let's just
move on with what we're doing. Ithink for a lot of people in the
beginning, when they talk toyou, it resonates with them
sometimes to either do the realbasic thing of like, change the
conversation, right? Just likeDarkspawn change the

(53:13):
conversation and hope thatpeople understand the nuance of
like, you asked me something, Idon't really want to like engage
in a conversation and leaving,right. And especially in group
situations where people arereally like getting into it, it
can be really easy to justexcuse yourself, right? I'm
gonna go do like, I have ameeting, or I just kind of
excused herself from theconversation. If you're feeling

(53:36):
like, I think that people tendto sometimes get nervous about
singing songs, they feel likethey don't have all the answers.
They're nervous to, like, starta conversation and have people
hit them back with questions orlike not agree with them. So I
think that can be really scary.
But if you're feeling like youmight be able to like tiptoe a
little bit into the waters. Ithink it's Okay to say to

(53:57):
someone, I feel like it like Idon't feel super comfortable,
like having conversations likethat, right? Or oh, you just
made that comment about someoneand like, oh, like, it doesn't
feel good to me. Right? Like nojudgement, but like, it doesn't
feel really good to me when Ihear other people say things
like that. So I think there's Idon't think there's one right
answer to it. I think a lot ofit is taking off the judgment,
right? That if you don't want toengage like it is not your job

(54:18):
to educate everyone else onthat. I felt that way for a
while in the beginning. Like Ihad to educate people about
this, people must know, I'mgoing to change everyone's mind.
That's typically not whathappens. People are not always
super open minded to this kindof thing, especially in groups.
I think if you're like one onone with friends that might be a
little bit different. So takethe judgment away, like off of

(54:38):
yourself that you need to be aneducator and the first thing you
should do is to focus on what'sgoing to feel safe and right and
best for me in this situation interms of engaging or just like
totally getting situation.

Erica D'Eramo (54:54):
Yeah, I think that's really that's really
helpful because the world isevolving a different aces,
right? Like different peoplehave different levels of
awareness. And if you're not, ifyou're not following the
Instagram folks like yourself,yeah, because actually anyone
like listening who is wanting toknow more about this, like, I
definitely recommend givingCarrie a follow. But there are

(55:17):
there there is awareness comingto the surface, I think people
are starting to question wherethey're at. But like, not
everyone is in those spheres,not everyone is having those
conversations. And so peoplewill sometimes be really well
meaning and make a misstep. Andsometimes it's not well, meaning
sometimes it is meant to, youknow, I don't know replicate
harm that was done to them, andthey're lashing out or angry or

(55:41):
trying to exert power or, or putyou in your place. And so I
think those get handleddifferently. But I agree like
getting yourself to a placethat's safe and putting yourself
and your wellness at theforefront is what's most
important for for anyonelistening that's like, Hmm, this
some of this is resonating.
Maybe I have a complicatedrelationship with food, like
what are some of the indicatorsthat you would have folks maybe

(56:03):
take stock of that they shouldthey could consider?

Keri Baker (56:09):
Yeah, I think a lot of big fashion, even when it

Erica D'Eramo (56:09):
Yeah, and how, and again, like how to deal with
comes to the question of like,is this just like, disordered
eating? Like, is this an eatingdisorder, right, we get like,
caught up in this spectrum oflike, how bad is this? Like, how
bad is this right now? For me? Ithink a lot of it has to do with
the impact that it's having onyour life, right? I always ask
clients when we talk about this,like how if you had to put a

(56:30):
percentage and this is not aneasy question, but interesting
to think about, if you had toput a percentage on how much
time of your day you spendthinking about food, thinking
about your body? Like wherewould you put that right? Is it
5% of your day? Is it 80% ofyour day, right? So where would
you put yourself on thatspectrum? Also, how much stress
is causing you? If zero is nostress? And 10 is like the worst

(56:52):
stress you've ever felt in yourlife? Like, where would you
scale yourself on that can kindof be a nice way just to see.
And that doesn't mean that evenif you're under two, that
doesn't mean that you might notstill need some help, right?
Even if it feels like on thelower level, if it's causing
stress, if it's causingdifficulties, right? If you are
avoiding things, right, I won'tgo to this party, because

(57:13):
there's going to be food there.
I don't want to have to interactwith it, or because I don't know
what I'm gonna wear, I'm gonnastare at myself in the mirror
for an hour, and I'm gonnachange 17 times, right? I think
those are almost the easier waysto see like, Oh, like this is
having an impact. I'm not Ididn't go out with my friends.
You know, I didn't go to thatbirthday party, because I felt
so stressed out about that. Ifyou are having any, if you are

(57:35):
sitting right now listening tothis and saying, there's a
slight possibility that there issomething going on here, I don't
know what to do. Go get like gethelp, right? That's Okay. You
don't have to be, you know,basically, again, going back to
where it started, like you donot have to have a diagnosed
eating disorder, to be reallystruggling with these kind of
relationships. If you feel badabout yourself, you don't know

(57:57):
how to cook for yourself, youdon't know how to eat right? For
so long that you don't even knowwhat to do like you deserve to
have to be going to see aclinician or even a dietitian or
someone who specializes in thesethings, or maybe reading like
the intuitive eating. I findthat for a lot of people when
they read that. If it ends upbeing this like mind blowing
thing where it's like, holyshit, there's another way to

(58:19):
think about this. You might wantto take what's happening for you
in your day to day in terms oflike behaviors around food and
body. Or listen to a podcastright maintenance space, like
you said, it's a really greatone, the BMI, I always recommend
that BMI episode on MaintenancePhase as like a first one for
people to listen to, justbecause BMI is like such a
loaded topic. And they are likethe experts at really, the

(58:41):
research. I couldn't even beabout half the things they said
because I listened to it so longago at this point, but being
able to deep dive into some ofthat or follow like some of the,
you know, Instagram accounts andsay is this person talking about
food and body in a way thatfeels really foreign to me, then
maybe there's like someexploration to do there. But
again, I want to reiterate thatif you if there's any struggle

(59:02):
going on for you, if they'relike you deserve to have someone
to help you. I wish that I hadhad someone say that to me years
ago, like you seem like you'restruggling. This is something
you think about a lot it issomething that you like these
are life around like you deservesomeone to talk to about this
and help sorted out, right andthat doesn't mean that you need
a diagnosis or any onemedication or that that's not

(59:24):
right for you. But there arepeople out there myself
included, who will work withpeople like I point that the
rat, right and really try tohelp you figure out like what do
you want for your life and howcan we help you make that?
the influences around you aswell like the conversations that

(59:45):
you might need to have with yourmom about hey, we're not going
to talk about that here. I Ican't have you body shaming
yourself in front of my kids orwe're not going to calorie count
right now. We're going to youknow, eat until we're satiated,
like these other things thatstart to like that you maybe
weren't even cognizant of. But Ithink that's one of the really

(01:00:05):
valuable parts of interactingwith people getting support is
learning how to start settingsome of those boundaries that
are healthy, that will help youkind of navigate the space for
the long term because we're allunlearning micro learning stuff.

Keri Baker (01:00:21):
Yeah, I feel like validated that those are real
things, right? Talking to yourmom about her dieting history,
and like the way you would likeher to act on her. I had to do
right, like that was reallyhard. And I was very lucky that
I that the person I did that wasresponsive and carry, like had
incited could reflect but like,that's not everybody's story.

(01:00:42):
And so do not underestimate likehow difficult these things can
be. And that you don't have todo it by yourself. If it's
something that you feel like,you can't figure out.

Erica D'Eramo (01:00:53):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So if people do want
to find more or connect withyou, what's what's the best way
to do that?

Keri Baker (01:01:01):
Yeah, internet's probably the best way. And I
like blog posts up there allabout intuitive eating. And so
people want to go, I try to putas much free content as
possible. On the blog, I haven'twritten one in a while, but I
was I was on a good roll lastyear for a while. So you can,
you can read those. It's just akeribaker.com - Keri's K E R I,
and @keribakercounseling onInstagram, which is where I try

(01:01:24):
to post again, social media,like you love it, you hate it,
you want to use it, you don'twant to use it. So when I feel
motivated, I go on. But I alsohave a lot of free content on
there. And I'll be posting a lotof other creators on Instagram,
which I think is helpful to beable to follow other people.
Yeah, and I'm in southernFlorida, if people are

(01:01:45):
interested in like therapyservices, you have to either be
in Florida, like physically inFlorida, or I can technically
see people who are in Vermont. Ido have an office in the Tampa
area. So I do see people inperson there too.

Erica D'Eramo (01:01:57):
Cool. Well, Vermont. That's, I mean, yeah.

Keri Baker (01:02:02):
It's easy to get telehealth license there.

Erica D'Eramo (01:02:03):
Yeah, yeah.

Keri Baker (01:02:05):
I did it. We'll see.
We'll see how long...

Erica D'Eramo (01:02:06):
Yeah. And I do wish that telehealth were more,
you know, easily accessibleacross across the country,
because especially being whatright now we're in Maine and
finding folks who are finding aprovider period for a lot of
different, whatever specialtiesis tough. But finding someone

(01:02:27):
who you click with and canestablish maybe who shares some
of your, you know, marginalizedidentities can be even tougher.
So

Keri Baker (01:02:37):
The good news is clinically, there are some like
counseling compacts that shouldbe coming down the pike. Like
for psychologists now, there issomething called sai pact. Or
you can find someone who is partof AIPAC, they can technically
practice in like a bunch ofdifferent states. There's one
that's supposed to be coming forLMH C's, like licensed mental
health counselors, and NASW,which is the Social Work board.

(01:02:59):
They're all working on it. Sohopefully more soon. So
hopefully, like in the next fewyears, things like that will
become a little bit more easy. Ithink what you're talking about
is like to find specialistproviders can be really
difficult. things easier.

Erica D'Eramo (01:03:13):
Yeah, absolutely.
Well, we'll include a link toyour website in our show notes,
as well as your Instagram. Andyeah, and we'll tag you when we
share this, this post. And Ireally appreciate you coming on
and delving into some stuff thatwas, you know, some tougher
topics that folks probably don'teven realize they're already

(01:03:33):
grappling with. So yeah, thanks,Keri.

Keri Baker (01:03:36):
Yeah. Thanks so much for having me the opportunity to
talk about this. All of this.

Erica D'Eramo (01:03:42):
Yeah, absolutely.
And for anyone wanting to findthe transcript for this, or a
summary of this episode, you cancheck out our website at
twopiersconsulting.com. Andagain, we'll include links to
Keri's resources, and we lookforward to seeing you next
episode.