October 16, 2025 • 42 mins
Episode Summary
In this episode of The Two Piers Podcast, host Erica D’Eramo sits down with Celeste Warren, a diversity and inclusion consultant with nearly 40 years of experience and former Chief Diversity & Inclusion Officer at Merck. Together, they unpack one of the most misunderstood concepts in the modern workplace — equity.
Celeste explains why equity isn’t about preferential treatment but about removing systemic barriers that prevent fair access to opportunity. Through powerful stories and practical examples, she and Erica explore how equity strengthens leadership, improves business outcomes, and helps organizations reach their full potential.
🔍 Topics Covered
- The real difference between equality and equity — and why it matters
- Common myths and misconceptions about fairness and meritocracy
- How systemic barriers like racism and sexism undermine team performance
- What skills-based hiring looks like in practice
- The role of shame, defensiveness, and dialogue in advancing inclusion
- How effective leaders create equitable, high-performing teams
- Why SHRM’s recent decision to de-emphasize equity is a step backward
- The business and human case for embracing equity as a leadership imperative
🧭 Key Takeaways
- Equity is not a dirty word — it’s the foundation of good leadership and sound business strategy.
- Leaders must understand that identical treatment isn’t fairness; equitable systems recognize and address different starting points.
- Conversations about equity work best when they’re grounded in data, empathy, and curiosity, not shame or fear.
- Organizations that commit to equity see stronger engagement, innovation, and performance.
👤 About Celeste Warren
Celeste Warren is a globally recognized diversity and inclusion strategist and the former Chief Diversity & Inclusion Officer at Merck. With a career spanning nearly four decades, she has been a leading voice in transforming organizational culture through equity, empathy, and leadership accountability. Celeste is also the author of How to Be a Diversity and Inclusion Ambassador and a sought-after speaker and consultant.
To learn more about Celeste Warren’s work, visit her website, follow her on LinkedIn, or check out her book, “The Truth About Equity.”
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Erica D'Eramo (00:05):
Hello and welcome to the two piers podcast. I'm
your host, Erica D'Eramo, andtoday we have guest Celeste
Warren joining us. Celeste is adiversity and inclusion
consultant, leader, speaker andpublished author with nearly 40
years of experience in majorglobal corporations. She helps
individuals and organizationsunderstand true equity,
(00:25):
providing aha moments anddebunking myths. She's here to
talk to us today about the truthabout equity, how it's good for
leadership, good for management,and good for business. I Erica,
(00:45):
Hello, Celeste, thanks so muchfor being on the podcast. It's
great to have you here.
Celeste Warren (00:49):
Well, thank you for the invitation. Erica, I
appreciate it.
Erica D'Eramo (00:53):
Yeah, I'm really excited for this conversation,
because there's lots swirling inin the spheres that we operate
in regarding equity, and I wouldlove to debunk some myths and
really get clear on what we'retalking about when we talk about
equity and how it's it's notjust good for individuals and
humans, but also good forbusiness, good for the bottom
(01:15):
line, and good forsustainability.
Celeste Warren (01:18):
Very much so all of those things and more.
Erica D'Eramo (01:21):
Yeah, so what's your story? Kind of who is, who
is the Celeste we're talking totoday, and what brought her
about?
Celeste Warren (01:28):
Well, the Celeste you're talking to today
is a kid from a small steel milltown in western Pennsylvania. I
was brought up by my parents. Mydad was the first black teacher
and principal in the in theregion, and my mom was the CEO
and COO and CFO of ourhousehold. And it was a it was a
(01:53):
opportunity to see firsthand atthe dinner table every night
what diversity, equity andinclusion was all about. My dad
would come home from fromschool, and my mom would say,
hey, you know, honey, how wasyour day? And then he would
proceed to tell us, you know,what some of his challenges were
by being the first and then notjust what his challenges were,
(02:15):
but how he overcame them, whathe did, what strategies he put
in place. And so that was a bigpart of my growing up, and I got
a first row seat of Equity andDiversity and Inclusion at its
finest. I My first career wasactually a reporter. I was
actually a reporter. I went tothe University of Kentucky on a
(02:36):
volleyball scholarship andworked as a reporter for a few
years and just wasn't makingenough money. And I got tired of
writing home and calling home myparents to say, Mom, can you
help me with my rent? Or can youhelp me with this? Help me with
pay bills? Because it wasembarrassing. I'm supposed to
have graduated and, you know,adulting and and having had to
(02:57):
write home. So my older sistertalked me into going back to
school. She said, if you want tochange careers, go back and get
your Masters and then you canfigure it out. You got. Got some
time to figure it out. And so Iwent back to school and got
introduced to the field of humanresources, the vast disciplines
within it, and started did aninternship at General Foods back
(03:19):
then in White Plains, New York,and got hired after I graduated
and went back to New York andNew Jersey area and started
working there. Worked for themfor about nine years, and then
Merck came a calling, and I'vebeen I was at Merck for 28
years, the last 10 years as thechief diversity and inclusion
(03:41):
officer until I retired thispast July, and now do
consulting. I launched the bookThe truth About Equity and and I
do speaking engagements as well.
Erica D'Eramo (03:53):
So when I mean, I feel like this is a topic that's
received a lot of attention anddiscussion lately, and a lot of
people shifting their language.
So I do really appreciate thatwe're not like, we're not using
euphemisms or change, you know,like changing the language, but
meaning the same thing. So whatdo you wish folks understood
(04:14):
right now about the concepts ofdiversity, equity and inclusion
strategies at this time likethis, this moment in our
cultural zeitgeist.
Celeste Warren (04:26):
Yeah, I wanted to write this book because, you
know, I'd done a lot of work indiversity, equity and inclusion,
not not just in the time that Iwas the chief diversity
inclusion officer, but beforethen as well. And so I wanted to
use my platform to be able todebunk the myths about equity,
(04:49):
what it truly is and what itisn't. And the the main point
that I want to say is equity isnot about preferential treatment
of. One group over another. Andthe analogy that I use in the
book is the DeloitteIllustration, where you see
there's three illustrations. Inthe first illustration, all of
(05:11):
the there's three individuals,and they're standing on one
rock, and there's a fence infront of them. The person on the
right can't see over the fence.
The person in the middle canbarely see over the fence. The
person on the left can clearlysee over the fence, but they're
all standing on one rock, andthat's an example of equality,
because you've given them allthe same thing, but they still,
some of them still, don't haveaccess to see over the fence.
(05:33):
And in the middle illustration,the person on the right has been
given two more rocks. He hasthree rocks, and he can see over
the fence. The person in themiddle has two rocks now, and
they can clearly see over thefence. The person in the left
still has the one rock becausethey were always able to see
over the fence. And what'shappening this work around
equity, the person who wasstanding on one rock in both the
(05:56):
first and the secondillustration, well, they're
looking to their right. In myanalogy, they're looking to
their right, and they're saying,well, that person has three
rocks and they have two, and Ijust have one. That's not fair.
How is that equitable? And whatthey don't understand is that
that sense is there, and in myanalogy, that sense represents
(06:17):
all of the isms, the longer termchallenges that face, that we
face in society and institutionsand organizations that I call
them the isms, racism, sexism,homophobia, the things that are
done to persons withdisabilities, all of that. And
so what we have to do is notjust put the acts of equity in
(06:39):
place, put the rocks in place soeveryone can see over the fence.
But at the same time, we have totear down the fence, and that
takes a longer term strategy andharder work. And then we also
have to go to that person that'sstanding on one rock and say,
here's what what you need tounderstand that fence is there.
Here's how it manifests itselfto the people on the right in
(07:03):
all of those different aspectsand behaviors that happen, you
know, marginalization anddisrespect and and all of those
things that happen in the ISMphase, and not only helping them
to understand but also makingsure that we get them to be
active allies, so they get inthe boat, grab an oar and help
(07:25):
us to row up the river. That'sthe work that needs to be done,
because in the thirdillustration, which is why
equity benefits everyone. Therocks are gone, the fence is
down, and everyone can see thebeautiful mountains ahead, and
even that person that wasstanding on one rock, once they
realize that there is a fencethere and that fence is torn
(07:46):
down, they see how it inhibitedthem as well, and how they have
a wider aperture, and they cansee more of the mountains in
front. So that's the analogythat I like to use in how equity
isn't about preferentialtreatment. It's about equal
access, and giving people accessto opportunities and whatever
their aspirations might be.
Erica D'Eramo (08:10):
Yeah, I think that that, like, what's in it
for me, piece is so interesting,and having the penny drop moment
where people realize, I mean, Iwould love for all of us to be
motivated from a sense ofcomradery and justice, and that
we want our fellow humans tohave the most joyful experience
(08:31):
and impactful experience on thisearth. And also, like, I
recognize that there is a partof our human nature that says,
like, Oh, if I give upsomething. If somebody else is
going to get something, I haveto give up something. And
sometimes that giving up is evenjust the status of being the the
only one that can see over thefence. And so I think that
(08:53):
sometimes people don't evenrealize that their attachment is
to the fence, because that givesa level of perceived status, and
it blinds to the fact that theycould be getting a much broader
view of things if we could getrid of the fence. Like, who's
benefiting from the fence? Isalways the question, right?
Somebody's benefiting from thefence, and it's probably not
(09:13):
actually you. This is like aperception without necessarily a
lot of reality, that you'rebenefiting from the fence. They
might be truly benefiting fromthe fence, from, you know, pay
and equity, or access toopportunities that other people
don't have. But in many cases,there's a price to the fence
that people don't perceive.
Celeste Warren (09:32):
That's exactly it. Erica, absolutely and, you
know, and it's a tight rope thatwe walk those in the diversity,
equity, inclusion space, anyone.
I call them diversity andinclusion ambassadors that
embrace it. There's a tightropethat you walk. And I remember
having this conversation when Iwas in the CDO role, because if
you you try to discuss and havea dialog, a productive dialog.
(09:57):
Around the issues, because thetightrope is, if you start to
play the blame game, or youstart to really question
someone's beliefs, you'requestioning what grandma or mom
and dad or Auntie said at thedinner table, you know, and
something that they grew upwith, beliefs, ideals,
(10:19):
perceptions, whatever, whateverit may be. And so you you can't
cross that line of attackingthem, but you need to be able to
have a productive dialog to say,here's kind of what my
perception is, or what the Ibelieve is happening in either
(10:41):
the workplace or in this orwhatever institution you want to
talk about, and having a dialogthat is grounded in facts,
grounded in data, but alsogrounded In truth, and helping
them to understand it withoutattacking their belief system.
Erica D'Eramo (11:05):
Yeah, I think it's, I'm not interested in
coddling, right? There is apiece here around like, well, we
can't be coddling. We need tobring some tough truths, and
also I recognize the corrosiveimpact of shame, and shame is
one of the quickest ways to shutdown curiosity and openness, and
(11:27):
it's not very especially whenfolks don't feel like there's
something that they can look toto actively change, right? If
it's just like, if they if wesay a lot of like, not that, not
that, not that, but we aren'tsaying, but yes, this, this,
this and this, then people aresort of left with not a lot of
clarity about what they shouldbe doing, and then that ends up
(11:49):
kind of manifesting this, Idon't know, cognitive
dissonance, I guess, aroundlike, well, if I don't know what
to do, I'm just going to shutdown the entire I'm not going to
believe in this concept, becauseit's easier for me than to sit
in shame or guilt about notdoing something if I don't know
what to do. And I think I see ita lot right now in the world,
even with people who are reallymotivated for change, if they
(12:09):
don't know what to do, we seesort of like a shutdown. So
what? So then what is mosteffective like in that line of
inquiry? A little bit what? Whatdo you see that does work for
people?
Celeste Warren (12:21):
Well, what I like to do is it, and I have
people that come up to me andthey'll say, you know, this,
this diversity, equity andinclusion thing, it's not for
me. It doesn't think about me.
It's not advantaging me. It'sexclusive to me. And I always
lead with, you know, I don'tthink you're, you know, I don't,
(12:44):
I don't sort of challenge themright off. I just say, Okay,
well, what makes you think thatI ask questions? Well, what
makes you think that, you know,why do you feel that way? And
you know, you ask the five whysRight? Like a like a five year
old, and by the time you get tothat fourth, even the third,
sometimes why they don't reallyhave an answer for it, and the
(13:06):
only answer is because that'swhat I know, or that's what I've
heard, or that's what I grew upwith believing. And so what I
like to do is basically start tosay, you know, different things.
I'll give you an example. I wastalking to a colleague a few
years back, and they weretalking about this whole thing
(13:26):
around looking at skills first,as opposed to hiring someone for
the four year degree, like youhave to have a four year degree.
And you know, lot of talentstrategies now, they basically
look at not just you have tohave a four year degree, but you
(13:47):
all you have to have a four yeardegree is optional, but these
are the skills, the experiencesand the different capabilities
that we want you to have whereyou'll be successful in the
role. And there was aconversation I was having with a
colleague who was saying, Well,you know, that's just basically
diversity in action. And I said,Well, why would you say that?
(14:09):
And they said, Well, you know,you're lowering the standard
because you're not you're sayingthat you don't need a four year
degree to get this job, andforever you needed a four year
degree. And I said, Well, Isaid, you know, there's been a
lot of analysis on the job andwhat really is required for
someone to be successful in thejob. And it's not necessarily a
(14:32):
four year degree. It's abouttheir experience that they have
with the with doing the skillsand the capabilities, how
they're able to demonstrate it,and I said, and by the way, we
there's a war for talent, and ifwe don't make sure that we can
get all of the labor market, allof the people who have the
(14:53):
skills and capabilities that weneed, then we are cutting
ourselves off from a very. Veryvaluable labor market. And and I
said, Oh, and by the way, ifyou're thinking that it's a
diversity, equity, inclusionthing, it's not, because in the
United States alone, that labormarket that has does not have a
(15:14):
four year degree, that's about60 plus percent white men, and
all of a sudden he was like, oh,oh, okay, wow. And so, you know,
it's being able to say, here'sthe benefit, here's what it's
about, and, and, and, oh, let metalk to you a little bit about
(15:35):
the data and what it's shown.
And when I when I was able tohave that conversation with them
again, not pounding my hands onthe desk or screaming at the
person, but just, you know,we're two adults having a
conversation, but being able tothrow that in in the mix, he
basically just changed his wholeperception of This skills first
(15:57):
meant talent strategy.
Erica D'Eramo (16:01):
Yeah, I always, I It's the concept of meritocracy
is always so interesting to me,because it's like, well, who is
measuring what? Who is decidingwhat we're measuring on? And if
I wanted to start hiring internsand saying, but they need to be
able to, like, I don't know, rubtheir belly and pat their head
at the same time in order towork with me, sure if I've, if I
(16:22):
am overwhelmed with applicationsand I just need some arbitrary
filter to narrow it down, cool,I can throw that filter on
there. But ultimately, like, howdoes that impact the ability to
do the role? And it's reallykind of from an engineering
perspective, like, you know, Ijoke like, you could take the
(16:42):
gal out of engineering. You cannever take the engineering out
of the gal. I'm always thinkingabout the systems, and what is
the outcome we're truly like,what's the problem we're truly
solving for? And in so many ofthese cases, it boils down to
like, well, I earned it. Well, Ideserved it because I did x, y
and z, and this other persondidn't do X, Y and Z, and
(17:03):
ironically, sometimes I take abit of a harsher approach, and
I'm like, Cool, gold star A plusA for effort, you did a good
job. But ultimately, what theteam needs to be successful is a
diversity of strengths. And soultimately, I'm not that
interested in getting all of thea plus students that got the
gold star and deserve it ifthat's going to tank the outcome
(17:25):
of the team. Because I do needsome like blindside awareness. I
do need some differentperspectives. I do need some
healthy conflict in the team inorder to get to the best
outcome. So fairness is aninteresting concept, especially
when we're looking at outcomes,because this is not just about
we're not in school anymore.
It's not just about, like, didyou get an A plus? Yes, good job
(17:47):
you did. Now that doesn't meanyou, like, deserve the role on
the team just because you hadthe 4.0 or just because you went
to the most elite college. And Ithink that kind of flips it on
its head, because a lot of timespeople talk about like, Oh, this
is all, you know, people feelinglike they're entitled to things
(18:09):
when they're not. I'm like,Well, that's the that's a real
ironic, isn't it? Who's the onefeeling entitled? But I don't
know, what are your thoughtsaround fairness? Like, what's
Yeah, I'm sure there's a conceptthat comes up a lot for you.
Celeste Warren (18:23):
Yeah, it does.
And i My father used to say afair is a place you go to watch
livestock and eat funnel cake.
Erica D'Eramo (18:34):
Oh, I love funnel cake.
Celeste Warren (18:38):
And what he meant by that, especially, you
know, like I said, being thefirst black man in this in the
space of education, in thatarea, fairness is in the eye of
the beholder. Yes, it'simportant, but it's fair and
equitable. Because what's fairto one person may not be fair to
(19:00):
another person, as you justtalked about it, the person who
is is an elitist thinks that,well, they should get everything
regardless, and to them that'sfair, but to another person,
that isn't fair. And so what welike to say is we want to get to
I'm fine with the meritocracy aslong as everybody has the
(19:21):
ability to have access to thoseopportunities, to the education,
to the etc, that allows for thebest person to get the job.
Because intelligence isn't justisn't a factor of your public
education, your formaleducation. There are a lot of
intelligent people out therethat did not have the financial
(19:43):
means to be able to go to theIvy League schools or this
school or that school, but theyare highly, highly intelligent,
and so, you know, we have tomake sure that we're able to
understand and say, Okay, whatare the obstacles and the
barriers that are getting in theway for this person? To reach
this place and be able tounderstand that, and be able to
(20:05):
say, Okay, well, what programs,policies persist, the systems,
etc, do we need to put in placeso they can reach this ultimate
outcome? And in the in anorganizational space, it's more
about, you know, as I say, thatequity is about good leadership
and good management and alsogood business, but from a
(20:25):
management and leadershipstandpoint, if I have I'm a
leader of an organization, and Ineed to make sure that I can get
all of these people, becausediversity is just differences,
differences in people, those youcan see and those you can't see.
And I need to be able tounderstand and leverage those
differences to get them to acollective purpose. And that's
(20:46):
usually the the outcomes, thebusiness performance, the
mission, the vision of thatorganization. And if you don't
understand those differences inpeople, if you don't understand
what's getting in the way ofyour team being able to function
through those individual people,then you're not going to be an
effective leader. You're notgoing to be able to drive your
(21:09):
business. And that's why it'sjust so very, very critical and
very important that youunderstand that people
understand that. And I keepsaying this over and over again,
because people seem to sayyou're giving someone
preferential treatment. No. Joeis Jane different from Sally is
different from Andre isdifferent from this person that
(21:30):
person. You need to understandthose differences if you're
going to be an effective manageror leader. That's management
101.
Erica D'Eramo (21:39):
Yes, yes, yes.
It's like, yeah, I totallyagree. I sometimes use a salad
analogy of like, if I'mgardening and I'm not very good
at gardening, I have a lot tolearn about gardening. But if
I'm planting a garden and I wanta boring salad with just
lettuce, okay, fine. That'seasy. That's not a very tasty
salad. I would say, if I want toadd in tomatoes or cucumbers or
(22:01):
whatever, and those plants arenot thriving, well, then I need
to look at what I'm doing. Am Igiving it the right acid, the
right? I don't know, nitrogen,the right shade, the right, you
know, am I timing it right intoin terms of what I'm doing?
Because ultimately, I want thesalad that is not just boring
lettuce. And the other piece toois like, maybe one year there is
(22:24):
a blight, and the lettuce justdoesn't thrive. Well, at least
I've got some cucumbers andtomatoes that might thrive, like
having diversity biodiversity.
Having diversity in our team hasalways been a source of
resilience, and not having thatdiversity has always been a
source of vulnerability, likegoing all the way back through
(22:44):
how organisms even adapt andthrive. So we would never be
like, well, those tomatoes don'tdeserve a place in our salad
because they require too muchsunshine, and how dare they
Right? Like, we just wouldn't dothat. We would be like, Okay,
let's put the tomatoes in thesunshine. Let's put the lettuce
in the shade, and let's makesure that those cucumbers have
(23:05):
some pollinators around, becauseotherwise I'm going to be out
there a little paintbrushpollinating every morning. So
you know, like that's what wewould do, we would take a more
curious, observant framework tosee what does the system need to
thrive if we can detachourselves and our identity and
our, you know, like self biases,yes, right? Like, if I think
(23:29):
tomatoes are the most amazingthing, and anything that's not a
tomato because I'm a tomato islike less than, well, maybe I'm
not going to be as concernedwith the lettuce and the and the
cucumbers thriving.
Celeste Warren (23:39):
I love that analogy. Love that Erica. That's
perfect. That's perfect.
Erica D'Eramo (23:46):
Yeah, I still haven't managed to get a good
beefsteak tomato to thrive. Soif anybody has ideas out there,
let me know I can do the littleguys, but
Celeste Warren (23:53):
I don't want one to talk to. I am horrible.
Horrible. My husband isexcellent. The yard looks so
beautiful in the summer andfall, but, yeah, if I touched
it, it would be done.
Erica D'Eramo (24:05):
You know, not to, like, beat a dead horse on this
analogy. But I do think that forme, the big learning and I've
always been achievementoriented, right? And so I think
that that's maybe why I'veresisted gardening, because what
if I fail? What if my tomatoesfail? And I've had to reorient,
just like my leadership skillsreorient around like learning
(24:26):
and adapting and saying, Ah,okay, that didn't work. Next
time, what should I do? I can'ttalk to the plants to ask them,
but we can talk to the humans inour organization and ask them
what they need.
Celeste Warren (24:37):
Absolutely, you know, there's a there's a study,
and I can't remember which whodid it, but there is a direct
correlation to how frequently amanager meets one on one with
his team members, and the levelof productivity and the level of
(24:58):
engagement and the trust. Formswith the team and the manager,
and it's, you know, it's allabout, just like I said,
management, one on one, sittingthere and talking with
individuals. What do you need?
You know, contracting with them,partnering with them, and
saying, you know, what is itthat you need? What's getting in
the way from you being able todo your job, you know better
(25:19):
from you being able to develop,from you being able to reach
career aspirations that you wantto reach. You know what is
getting in the way? And let mehelp you to get those obstacles
blown out of the way and get youwhatever resources that you
need.
Erica D'Eramo (25:36):
Yeah, I think that there's this perception, at
least in our society, that, likemanagers are supposed to have
the answers. And so as a as aleadership coach, I so often
encounter these challenges wherepeople will say, I tried this,
and I've tried this, and like,nothing seems to motivate these
individuals. They're just lazy.
Blah, blah, blah. Like, lazy isa tricky word. I don't know that
I I even believe it exists.
(26:00):
Maybe lacking motivation, mightbe one, one line of inquiry, but
when I turn it back, though, andwe come to the idea that maybe
you're not supposed to know whatthese individuals need, and you
have to ask them, because theyare different than you. They
have different needs. That seemsto be as soon as people come to
(26:21):
it, they're like, oh, shoot,yeah, I could just ask them, but
it like, doesn't always occur.
That we could just askindividuals and just, you know,
if they're not performing towhat we would expect, or we're
not getting the outcomes that wewould expect, the problem is not
necessarily them. Yeah, a lot oftimes we default to, like, I've
tried everything and nothing'sworking. Well, did you? Did you
ask them what might work? Andthen it's like, oh, shoot, I
(26:43):
could just ask them, right?
They're humans. They can talk tous. It's not Lu it's not a
tomato plant. And that, I don'tknow if that is like, seen as
weakness or vulnerability, but Ido wish folks could could detach
from that idea that they have tohave all the answers, and if
(27:03):
they if the system isn'tresponding the way they would
expect, then the system isbroken. And maybe try to
embrace, like you said, liketouching base with people asking
the open ended questions withoutjudgment about, like, what would
work.
Celeste Warren (27:17):
Absolutely, you know, you know, you you've heard
the whole thing around thepyramid and organizational
structure. The leaders are onlysupposed to be know so much
anyway, and they're supposed tobe depending on the employees
within the organization tounderstand and know what they're
doing. And their role is toguide. You know, lead, here's
the vision, and then, you know,from an operational standpoint,
(27:41):
everybody knows how to do theirjob. It's just they need someone
that's going to lead and providea vision and to where they need
to be. And, you know, a lot ofleaders, they just don't
understand that. You know, it'sfunny, you know, same thing that
you said during the time of2020, there was such around the
time of murder of George Floydin the in the the pandemic. And
(28:05):
it's like, oh, you know, how amI going to lead? How I'm going
to manage people? I'm not evenseeing them on a day to day
basis. And it's like, well, thisis a global company. You weren't
seeing people face to face,except for the guys and the gals
that were around your office,your rest of your team, if your
team is global, you weren'tseeing them face to face anyway,
every day. So how is this goingto be changing how your
(28:27):
management style? It really didshine a light on the inequities
of people's management stylesfrom a proximity standpoint,
proximity bias, you know, andyou know, being able to be they
had to work really, really hardto demonstrate inclusive
leadership, you know, from thestandpoint of the virtual
(28:48):
meetings and making sure thatthey're giving everyone an
opportunity to to speak up, orif they don't feel comfortable
speaking up, put your points inthe chat and and, you know,
reading the chat And talkingabout different points and
acknowledging people's inputs.
It was just the it just reallyshined a light on it. And then,
from the standpoint of peopleduring the May timeframe and the
(29:08):
murder of George Floyd, theywere like, Oh, I don't want to
say anything. It was like thisparalysis of leadership because
they were like, afraid to saythe wrong thing, and it's like,
no, your silence is deafening.
You just reach out, maybe textor talk to people, one on one.
(29:30):
How are you feeling? You know, Idon't have all of the answers,
and freely admit that I don'thave humility. You know, I'm
here if you want to talk, I knowhow to listen, and I'm going to
listen to you, and we can have aconversation and a dialog.
Please feel free to reach out.
But you know, that's all thatthat's needed sometimes, you
(29:50):
know, but it was, it was aninteresting time, and like I
said, those folks that werenaturally good leaders.
Empathetic listeners, high IQand EQ. They did a great job,
but others, it shined a light ontheir challenges and areas for
(30:10):
development as leaders. And itwas really an interesting time.
Erica D'Eramo (30:17):
This is where I get to, like, what are we
measuring? Because I really feelthere. I still hear it with all
the return to office stuff,like, we I need people nearby.
Otherwise, how do I know whatthey're working on? Well, if you
don't know what the performanceof your team needs to be, if you
don't know the impact that yourteam is having without seeing
butts in seats, like, if that'sthe closest analog you have to
(30:38):
productivity, productivity ofwhat is it just busyness? Is it
just presence, or are youactually like, producing and
doing things? And if that's thecase, what does the proximity
give you? What does time in theoffice give you, if it truly is
giving you lots of like, touchpoints and ability to support
people better? Great. I couldsee the argument for that. But
if it's just like, the closestanalog I have to the performance
(31:00):
management of my team is time indesk seats, then I would say
that that's a leadership gap.
And that's like, maybe not beingclear on what the impact is of
your team on the broaderorganization, but I don't know
that we're measuring that. AndI'm about to, like, maybe I'm
about to open a can of wormshere, but there's a big
conversation around I'm going touse a firefighting as a
(31:22):
framework, like, how we evaluatefirefighters, and a lot of times
the evaluation is like, can youcarry this super heavy dummy up
a ladder, right? Like, can youdo these very strength based
activities and endurance basedactivity. I think that that all
that might be very, veryimportant for being able to be a
(31:44):
good firefighter. Some of thethings we're not necessarily
measuring, though, is, Howflexible are you? How can you
coax a small child out of aenclosed space? How? How well
can you perceive unspoken fearsfrom like, somebody who's
paralyzed by fear, like some ofthese other elements that
probably are impactful to theability to do the job, but we
(32:06):
are fixated on this very narrowset, and maybe say the military.
Right now, there's conversationabout, like, the highest male
standard. Okay, well, how aboutmarksmanship? How about the
ability to regulate your nervoussystem and control your blood
pressure and control your heartrate under stress. Like some of
these things are actually quitetypically female strengths, but
(32:27):
maybe we're not measuring forthem when we say, you know,
meritocracy. So I'm on a littlebit of a tangent, but let me get
your thoughts. What are? What'syour...
Celeste Warren (32:37):
No, I absolutely, absolutely think
you're true. It's, you know, Iused to say, oh, decades ago,
that a lot of leaders andmanagers manage to this
distribution curve, and theymanage the top of the
distribution curve, where, youknow, 40 to 60, maybe 70% of the
people are, and they forgetabout those people that are on
(33:00):
the fringes. Now, fast forward2025, years, 30 years, the
people that were on the fringes.
Now, from a demographicstandpoint, they're up there in
the top, you know, getting tothat top of that circle. And you
know, it's how do you understandthem? So from a business
standpoint, yeah, understandingyour customer, understanding the
(33:22):
customer base, understandingwhat it is that is getting in
the way from them being able toenjoy the product or the service
that you provide. And if youdon't understand that as part of
your basic foundationalmarketing strategy and sales
strategy and how you go tomarket, you are missing out on
huge, huge revenues, and so notunderstanding that, and thinking
(33:47):
that, Oh well, you know, I'mstill going to be managing to
this, top of this distributioncurve, which I'm assuming,
because of my bias, is whiteMale, 40 to 60 years old, and
you know in today's demographicsglobally, if you're a global
organization, you have tounderstand and segment your
(34:08):
customer base, and that meansunderstanding them across all of
the identities, across all thedifferent dimensions of
diversity that exist In peoplearound the globe and and really
study that. And that's basicthat. Now that's basic 101,
marketing 101, they used to callit, decades ago, multicultural
(34:29):
marketing. And now it's justbasic marketing. It you know
that it's, it's, you can'tsucceed as an organization if
you don't understand that,
Erica D'Eramo (34:42):
I there have been, like, so many commercials,
you know, where the afterwards,the debrief is like, oh, you
know that there was, like, not ablack woman in the room when
they decided to move forwardwith that. I'm like, there might
have been, but she might nothave had a powerful, you know,
like her voice might not havebeen elevated to the point that
it needed to be in thatconversation. Conversation. But
yeah, some of these, again, it'sto speak to not that, like
(35:06):
resilience of diversity and thevulnerability of not having
that, because you have moreblind spots, you have more
Achilles heels then. So I justbriefly, I just want to touch on
it, because I think it's beencoming up a lot in my circles,
in the coaching circles, and theconsultant circles, certainly in
(35:28):
the HR circles, um, what areyour thoughts on the whole Sherm
thing and and some of thedecisions that they've made and
pivoted in terms of equity? Inparticular.
Celeste Warren (35:38):
I I, frankly, personally, I'm very
disappointed. I really, reallyam. It's an HR organization, one
of the largest HR organizations,that is about understanding the
people, practices and strategiesin organizations, and that means
being able to make sure thatyou're reaching all of the
people from an inclusionstandpoint, and that means that
(36:01):
you have to put acts of equityin place. And you know, the the
reasoning back, I guess it wasnow it's going on a couple years
now maybe of, hey, we're justnot going to focus on equity, or
we're taking that out, becauseit's just not working. And I
can't remember what the excusewas...
Erica D'Eramo (36:22):
Like, divisive. I think...
Celeste Warren (36:23):
yeah, divisive...that doesn't it.
That's like saying, Oh, well,we're not going to use this word
because we're not going to usethe word eating because it's
divisive. But we all still knowwe have to do it in order to
thrive. It's just the logic doesthis doesn't compute with me.
And then, you know, I just feelthat as an organization that is
(36:46):
responsible for helping humanresources, professionals and
leaders develop strategies inorganizations, that that's just
a disservice I really, reallydo.
Erica D'Eramo (37:00):
Yeah, yeah, I chose not to. I mean, for what
it's worth, I chose not. Iactually personally chose not to
renew my SHRM membership,because it felt to me that if
we're not going to be real intalking about this, then I can't
really rely on the organizationto be a thought leader in this
space. So that was my ownpersonal decision, and I put a
(37:20):
lot into that, you know, I was aSHRM SCP certification so that,
you know, even the exam itself,I think, like so many hours, but
that was, to me, I need peopleto be talking about, like the
reality of it, and not paperpapering over or avoiding the
challenging conversation. If wehave a misunderstanding about
what the term equity means, thenwe need to be having
(37:43):
conversations like you and I arehaving. We need to be like,
actually getting clear aboutwhat do we mean, rather than
avoiding it and leaving it aslike a landmine to uncover.
Celeste Warren (37:53):
Yeah, it's just, you know, and you know, this
year, last year, it didn't startwith the current administration.
It is actually saw this pendulumshifting probably as early as
late 2021 going into 2022 andthen we saw the Roe v Wade
overturned and the the decisionwith Harvard and UNC and around
(38:21):
the criteria used foradministration of students. And
we just started to see thisstarting to happen in this anti
dei rhetoric, and it justreached this crescendo and just
slapped us in the face thisyear. And so, you know, a lot of
corporations, they're, they're,you know, thinking, and how do I
approach this? What do I do? Howdo I do this? And pulling back
(38:44):
and and some are pulling back,some are depleting in entirety,
and others are just reshaping,kind of the nomenclature of what
they're doing. But if you lookat any of the studies, McKinsey,
any of them, the CEOs, knowthat, as I was saying earlier,
(39:04):
it's good for business. It'simperative for business. They
have to understand theircustomers. They have to
understand their the labormarket. They have to understand
all these different things thatcome with the differences that
you see in people and andshareholders. Understand it too,
because they're voting down alot of these, yeah, these
(39:25):
proposals. So, you know, there,there is still hope. I believe
that wholeheartedly, and I thinkthat you know this too shall
pass, but we have to hold fastand steadfast. We have to put
the truth out there as it existsand and help people to
understand and open up thedialog in a productive way.
Erica D'Eramo (39:48):
Yeah, those shareholders are not voting for
simply like this isn't this? Isnot just a sympathy vote or
anything like that. They have,they've invested in these.
Companies for a financialreturn. Like, I hate to boil it
down to that, but theyfundamentally see the financial
benefit and the impact benefitof their, you know, their
(40:10):
wealth, their wealth building byadhering to these policies. And
so, yeah, I do think thatultimately it's a both and
right. It's like these are, thisis both the right and ethical
thing to do and also thefinancially incentivized and
wise thing to do. So absolutely.
What would you say before wekind of close up for today or
(40:33):
close out the conversation fortoday? What would you say? The
key takeaway is that you wouldlike listeners to walk away
with, if there's one thing.
Celeste Warren (40:42):
I would say, if there's one thing I'd like for
the listeners to walk away withis helping them to understand
that equity is not a dirty word.
It is something that's neededfor people to be effective
managers, effective leaders, andbeing able to build trust in
their organizations with thepeople that they manage and
lead, and it's also goodbusiness sense so they can
(41:05):
understand customers and be ableto meet their needs as well.
Erica D'Eramo (41:11):
Awesome. And for folks who loved this sampler
that they got on the podcast andwant to learn more, read more,
where can they find you and yourwork?
Celeste Warren (41:22):
They can go to my website, www.crwdiversity.com
that's CRdiversity.com and I'malso on Instagram. It's
CRWdiversity. And I am alsogoing to be, soon to be
(41:42):
launching a YouTube channel aswell. So
Erica D'Eramo (41:45):
Exciting,
Celeste Warren (41:46):
Yeah, yeah. And LinkedIn, of course, under
Celeste Warren, she/her. Sothere are lots of different
ways, and you can get the bookon Amazon. It's available, and
also in bookstores around theglobe as well.
Excellent. So we'll be linkingto that in the show notes and on
our website, and for anyonelistening who would like to
(42:08):
review the summary of today'sepisode, you can find that on
the website along with thoselinks. And we'll put a link to
the book as well. We typicallylink to bookshop.org just so
folks can support their localbookshops if they want to do
that, but we will, yeah, we'lldefinitely make sure folks know
where to find you. And thank youso much for coming on and
sharing your wisdom and yourinsights and just having a
(42:30):
really good conversation.
Well, thank you, Erica for theinvitation. I really, really
enjoyed it.
Erica D'Eramo (42:36):
Awesome. We look forward to seeing our listeners
next episode.
Hello and welcome to the two piers podcast. I'm
your host, Erica D'Eramo, andtoday we have guest Celeste
Warren joining us. Celeste is adiversity and inclusion
consultant, leader, speaker andpublished author with nearly 40
years of experience in majorglobal corporations. She helps
individuals and organizationsunderstand true equity,
(00:25):
providing aha moments anddebunking myths. She's here to
talk to us today about the truthabout equity, how it's good for
leadership, good for management,and good for business. I Erica,
(00:45):
Hello, Celeste, thanks so muchfor being on the podcast. It's
great to have you here.
Celeste Warren (00:49):
Well, thank you for the invitation. Erica, I
appreciate it.
Erica D'Eramo (00:53):
Yeah, I'm really excited for this conversation,
because there's lots swirling inin the spheres that we operate
in regarding equity, and I wouldlove to debunk some myths and
really get clear on what we'retalking about when we talk about
equity and how it's it's notjust good for individuals and
humans, but also good forbusiness, good for the bottom
(01:15):
line, and good forsustainability.
Celeste Warren (01:18):
Very much so all of those things and more.
Erica D'Eramo (01:21):
Yeah, so what's your story? Kind of who is, who
is the Celeste we're talking totoday, and what brought her
about?
Celeste Warren (01:28):
Well, the Celeste you're talking to today
is a kid from a small steel milltown in western Pennsylvania. I
was brought up by my parents. Mydad was the first black teacher
and principal in the in theregion, and my mom was the CEO
and COO and CFO of ourhousehold. And it was a it was a
(01:53):
opportunity to see firsthand atthe dinner table every night
what diversity, equity andinclusion was all about. My dad
would come home from fromschool, and my mom would say,
hey, you know, honey, how wasyour day? And then he would
proceed to tell us, you know,what some of his challenges were
by being the first and then notjust what his challenges were,
(02:15):
but how he overcame them, whathe did, what strategies he put
in place. And so that was a bigpart of my growing up, and I got
a first row seat of Equity andDiversity and Inclusion at its
finest. I My first career wasactually a reporter. I was
actually a reporter. I went tothe University of Kentucky on a
(02:36):
volleyball scholarship andworked as a reporter for a few
years and just wasn't makingenough money. And I got tired of
writing home and calling home myparents to say, Mom, can you
help me with my rent? Or can youhelp me with this? Help me with
pay bills? Because it wasembarrassing. I'm supposed to
have graduated and, you know,adulting and and having had to
(02:57):
write home. So my older sistertalked me into going back to
school. She said, if you want tochange careers, go back and get
your Masters and then you canfigure it out. You got. Got some
time to figure it out. And so Iwent back to school and got
introduced to the field of humanresources, the vast disciplines
within it, and started did aninternship at General Foods back
(03:19):
then in White Plains, New York,and got hired after I graduated
and went back to New York andNew Jersey area and started
working there. Worked for themfor about nine years, and then
Merck came a calling, and I'vebeen I was at Merck for 28
years, the last 10 years as thechief diversity and inclusion
(03:41):
officer until I retired thispast July, and now do
consulting. I launched the bookThe truth About Equity and and I
do speaking engagements as well.
Erica D'Eramo (03:53):
So when I mean, I feel like this is a topic that's
received a lot of attention anddiscussion lately, and a lot of
people shifting their language.
So I do really appreciate thatwe're not like, we're not using
euphemisms or change, you know,like changing the language, but
meaning the same thing. So whatdo you wish folks understood
(04:14):
right now about the concepts ofdiversity, equity and inclusion
strategies at this time likethis, this moment in our
cultural zeitgeist.
Celeste Warren (04:26):
Yeah, I wanted to write this book because, you
know, I'd done a lot of work indiversity, equity and inclusion,
not not just in the time that Iwas the chief diversity
inclusion officer, but beforethen as well. And so I wanted to
use my platform to be able todebunk the myths about equity,
(04:49):
what it truly is and what itisn't. And the the main point
that I want to say is equity isnot about preferential treatment
of. One group over another. Andthe analogy that I use in the
book is the DeloitteIllustration, where you see
there's three illustrations. Inthe first illustration, all of
(05:11):
the there's three individuals,and they're standing on one
rock, and there's a fence infront of them. The person on the
right can't see over the fence.
The person in the middle canbarely see over the fence. The
person on the left can clearlysee over the fence, but they're
all standing on one rock, andthat's an example of equality,
because you've given them allthe same thing, but they still,
some of them still, don't haveaccess to see over the fence.
(05:33):
And in the middle illustration,the person on the right has been
given two more rocks. He hasthree rocks, and he can see over
the fence. The person in themiddle has two rocks now, and
they can clearly see over thefence. The person in the left
still has the one rock becausethey were always able to see
over the fence. And what'shappening this work around
equity, the person who wasstanding on one rock in both the
(05:56):
first and the secondillustration, well, they're
looking to their right. In myanalogy, they're looking to
their right, and they're saying,well, that person has three
rocks and they have two, and Ijust have one. That's not fair.
How is that equitable? And whatthey don't understand is that
that sense is there, and in myanalogy, that sense represents
(06:17):
all of the isms, the longer termchallenges that face, that we
face in society and institutionsand organizations that I call
them the isms, racism, sexism,homophobia, the things that are
done to persons withdisabilities, all of that. And
so what we have to do is notjust put the acts of equity in
(06:39):
place, put the rocks in place soeveryone can see over the fence.
But at the same time, we have totear down the fence, and that
takes a longer term strategy andharder work. And then we also
have to go to that person that'sstanding on one rock and say,
here's what what you need tounderstand that fence is there.
Here's how it manifests itselfto the people on the right in
(07:03):
all of those different aspectsand behaviors that happen, you
know, marginalization anddisrespect and and all of those
things that happen in the ISMphase, and not only helping them
to understand but also makingsure that we get them to be
active allies, so they get inthe boat, grab an oar and help
(07:25):
us to row up the river. That'sthe work that needs to be done,
because in the thirdillustration, which is why
equity benefits everyone. Therocks are gone, the fence is
down, and everyone can see thebeautiful mountains ahead, and
even that person that wasstanding on one rock, once they
realize that there is a fencethere and that fence is torn
(07:46):
down, they see how it inhibitedthem as well, and how they have
a wider aperture, and they cansee more of the mountains in
front. So that's the analogythat I like to use in how equity
isn't about preferentialtreatment. It's about equal
access, and giving people accessto opportunities and whatever
their aspirations might be.
Erica D'Eramo (08:10):
Yeah, I think that that, like, what's in it
for me, piece is so interesting,and having the penny drop moment
where people realize, I mean, Iwould love for all of us to be
motivated from a sense ofcomradery and justice, and that
we want our fellow humans tohave the most joyful experience
(08:31):
and impactful experience on thisearth. And also, like, I
recognize that there is a partof our human nature that says,
like, Oh, if I give upsomething. If somebody else is
going to get something, I haveto give up something. And
sometimes that giving up is evenjust the status of being the the
only one that can see over thefence. And so I think that
(08:53):
sometimes people don't evenrealize that their attachment is
to the fence, because that givesa level of perceived status, and
it blinds to the fact that theycould be getting a much broader
view of things if we could getrid of the fence. Like, who's
benefiting from the fence? Isalways the question, right?
Somebody's benefiting from thefence, and it's probably not
(09:13):
actually you. This is like aperception without necessarily a
lot of reality, that you'rebenefiting from the fence. They
might be truly benefiting fromthe fence, from, you know, pay
and equity, or access toopportunities that other people
don't have. But in many cases,there's a price to the fence
that people don't perceive.
Celeste Warren (09:32):
That's exactly it. Erica, absolutely and, you
know, and it's a tight rope thatwe walk those in the diversity,
equity, inclusion space, anyone.
I call them diversity andinclusion ambassadors that
embrace it. There's a tightropethat you walk. And I remember
having this conversation when Iwas in the CDO role, because if
you you try to discuss and havea dialog, a productive dialog.
(09:57):
Around the issues, because thetightrope is, if you start to
play the blame game, or youstart to really question
someone's beliefs, you'requestioning what grandma or mom
and dad or Auntie said at thedinner table, you know, and
something that they grew upwith, beliefs, ideals,
(10:19):
perceptions, whatever, whateverit may be. And so you you can't
cross that line of attackingthem, but you need to be able to
have a productive dialog to say,here's kind of what my
perception is, or what the Ibelieve is happening in either
(10:41):
the workplace or in this orwhatever institution you want to
talk about, and having a dialogthat is grounded in facts,
grounded in data, but alsogrounded In truth, and helping
them to understand it withoutattacking their belief system.
Erica D'Eramo (11:05):
Yeah, I think it's, I'm not interested in
coddling, right? There is apiece here around like, well, we
can't be coddling. We need tobring some tough truths, and
also I recognize the corrosiveimpact of shame, and shame is
one of the quickest ways to shutdown curiosity and openness, and
(11:27):
it's not very especially whenfolks don't feel like there's
something that they can look toto actively change, right? If
it's just like, if they if wesay a lot of like, not that, not
that, not that, but we aren'tsaying, but yes, this, this,
this and this, then people aresort of left with not a lot of
clarity about what they shouldbe doing, and then that ends up
(11:49):
kind of manifesting this, Idon't know, cognitive
dissonance, I guess, aroundlike, well, if I don't know what
to do, I'm just going to shutdown the entire I'm not going to
believe in this concept, becauseit's easier for me than to sit
in shame or guilt about notdoing something if I don't know
what to do. And I think I see ita lot right now in the world,
even with people who are reallymotivated for change, if they
(12:09):
don't know what to do, we seesort of like a shutdown. So
what? So then what is mosteffective like in that line of
inquiry? A little bit what? Whatdo you see that does work for
people?
Celeste Warren (12:21):
Well, what I like to do is it, and I have
people that come up to me andthey'll say, you know, this,
this diversity, equity andinclusion thing, it's not for
me. It doesn't think about me.
It's not advantaging me. It'sexclusive to me. And I always
lead with, you know, I don'tthink you're, you know, I don't,
(12:44):
I don't sort of challenge themright off. I just say, Okay,
well, what makes you think thatI ask questions? Well, what
makes you think that, you know,why do you feel that way? And
you know, you ask the five whysRight? Like a like a five year
old, and by the time you get tothat fourth, even the third,
sometimes why they don't reallyhave an answer for it, and the
(13:06):
only answer is because that'swhat I know, or that's what I've
heard, or that's what I grew upwith believing. And so what I
like to do is basically start tosay, you know, different things.
I'll give you an example. I wastalking to a colleague a few
years back, and they weretalking about this whole thing
(13:26):
around looking at skills first,as opposed to hiring someone for
the four year degree, like youhave to have a four year degree.
And you know, lot of talentstrategies now, they basically
look at not just you have tohave a four year degree, but you
(13:47):
all you have to have a four yeardegree is optional, but these
are the skills, the experiencesand the different capabilities
that we want you to have whereyou'll be successful in the
role. And there was aconversation I was having with a
colleague who was saying, Well,you know, that's just basically
diversity in action. And I said,Well, why would you say that?
(14:09):
And they said, Well, you know,you're lowering the standard
because you're not you're sayingthat you don't need a four year
degree to get this job, andforever you needed a four year
degree. And I said, Well, Isaid, you know, there's been a
lot of analysis on the job andwhat really is required for
someone to be successful in thejob. And it's not necessarily a
(14:32):
four year degree. It's abouttheir experience that they have
with the with doing the skillsand the capabilities, how
they're able to demonstrate it,and I said, and by the way, we
there's a war for talent, and ifwe don't make sure that we can
get all of the labor market, allof the people who have the
(14:53):
skills and capabilities that weneed, then we are cutting
ourselves off from a very. Veryvaluable labor market. And and I
said, Oh, and by the way, ifyou're thinking that it's a
diversity, equity, inclusionthing, it's not, because in the
United States alone, that labormarket that has does not have a
(15:14):
four year degree, that's about60 plus percent white men, and
all of a sudden he was like, oh,oh, okay, wow. And so, you know,
it's being able to say, here'sthe benefit, here's what it's
about, and, and, and, oh, let metalk to you a little bit about
(15:35):
the data and what it's shown.
And when I when I was able tohave that conversation with them
again, not pounding my hands onthe desk or screaming at the
person, but just, you know,we're two adults having a
conversation, but being able tothrow that in in the mix, he
basically just changed his wholeperception of This skills first
(15:57):
meant talent strategy.
Erica D'Eramo (16:01):
Yeah, I always, I It's the concept of meritocracy
is always so interesting to me,because it's like, well, who is
measuring what? Who is decidingwhat we're measuring on? And if
I wanted to start hiring internsand saying, but they need to be
able to, like, I don't know, rubtheir belly and pat their head
at the same time in order towork with me, sure if I've, if I
(16:22):
am overwhelmed with applicationsand I just need some arbitrary
filter to narrow it down, cool,I can throw that filter on
there. But ultimately, like, howdoes that impact the ability to
do the role? And it's reallykind of from an engineering
perspective, like, you know, Ijoke like, you could take the
(16:42):
gal out of engineering. You cannever take the engineering out
of the gal. I'm always thinkingabout the systems, and what is
the outcome we're truly like,what's the problem we're truly
solving for? And in so many ofthese cases, it boils down to
like, well, I earned it. Well, Ideserved it because I did x, y
and z, and this other persondidn't do X, Y and Z, and
(17:03):
ironically, sometimes I take abit of a harsher approach, and
I'm like, Cool, gold star A plusA for effort, you did a good
job. But ultimately, what theteam needs to be successful is a
diversity of strengths. And soultimately, I'm not that
interested in getting all of thea plus students that got the
gold star and deserve it ifthat's going to tank the outcome
(17:25):
of the team. Because I do needsome like blindside awareness. I
do need some differentperspectives. I do need some
healthy conflict in the team inorder to get to the best
outcome. So fairness is aninteresting concept, especially
when we're looking at outcomes,because this is not just about
we're not in school anymore.
It's not just about, like, didyou get an A plus? Yes, good job
(17:47):
you did. Now that doesn't meanyou, like, deserve the role on
the team just because you hadthe 4.0 or just because you went
to the most elite college. And Ithink that kind of flips it on
its head, because a lot of timespeople talk about like, Oh, this
is all, you know, people feelinglike they're entitled to things
(18:09):
when they're not. I'm like,Well, that's the that's a real
ironic, isn't it? Who's the onefeeling entitled? But I don't
know, what are your thoughtsaround fairness? Like, what's
Yeah, I'm sure there's a conceptthat comes up a lot for you.
Celeste Warren (18:23):
Yeah, it does.
And i My father used to say afair is a place you go to watch
livestock and eat funnel cake.
Erica D'Eramo (18:34):
Oh, I love funnel cake.
Celeste Warren (18:38):
And what he meant by that, especially, you
know, like I said, being thefirst black man in this in the
space of education, in thatarea, fairness is in the eye of
the beholder. Yes, it'simportant, but it's fair and
equitable. Because what's fairto one person may not be fair to
(19:00):
another person, as you justtalked about it, the person who
is is an elitist thinks that,well, they should get everything
regardless, and to them that'sfair, but to another person,
that isn't fair. And so what welike to say is we want to get to
I'm fine with the meritocracy aslong as everybody has the
(19:21):
ability to have access to thoseopportunities, to the education,
to the etc, that allows for thebest person to get the job.
Because intelligence isn't justisn't a factor of your public
education, your formaleducation. There are a lot of
intelligent people out therethat did not have the financial
(19:43):
means to be able to go to theIvy League schools or this
school or that school, but theyare highly, highly intelligent,
and so, you know, we have tomake sure that we're able to
understand and say, Okay, whatare the obstacles and the
barriers that are getting in theway for this person? To reach
this place and be able tounderstand that, and be able to
(20:05):
say, Okay, well, what programs,policies persist, the systems,
etc, do we need to put in placeso they can reach this ultimate
outcome? And in the in anorganizational space, it's more
about, you know, as I say, thatequity is about good leadership
and good management and alsogood business, but from a
(20:25):
management and leadershipstandpoint, if I have I'm a
leader of an organization, and Ineed to make sure that I can get
all of these people, becausediversity is just differences,
differences in people, those youcan see and those you can't see.
And I need to be able tounderstand and leverage those
differences to get them to acollective purpose. And that's
(20:46):
usually the the outcomes, thebusiness performance, the
mission, the vision of thatorganization. And if you don't
understand those differences inpeople, if you don't understand
what's getting in the way ofyour team being able to function
through those individual people,then you're not going to be an
effective leader. You're notgoing to be able to drive your
(21:09):
business. And that's why it'sjust so very, very critical and
very important that youunderstand that people
understand that. And I keepsaying this over and over again,
because people seem to sayyou're giving someone
preferential treatment. No. Joeis Jane different from Sally is
different from Andre isdifferent from this person that
(21:30):
person. You need to understandthose differences if you're
going to be an effective manageror leader. That's management
101.
Erica D'Eramo (21:39):
Yes, yes, yes.
It's like, yeah, I totallyagree. I sometimes use a salad
analogy of like, if I'mgardening and I'm not very good
at gardening, I have a lot tolearn about gardening. But if
I'm planting a garden and I wanta boring salad with just
lettuce, okay, fine. That'seasy. That's not a very tasty
salad. I would say, if I want toadd in tomatoes or cucumbers or
(22:01):
whatever, and those plants arenot thriving, well, then I need
to look at what I'm doing. Am Igiving it the right acid, the
right? I don't know, nitrogen,the right shade, the right, you
know, am I timing it right intoin terms of what I'm doing?
Because ultimately, I want thesalad that is not just boring
lettuce. And the other piece toois like, maybe one year there is
(22:24):
a blight, and the lettuce justdoesn't thrive. Well, at least
I've got some cucumbers andtomatoes that might thrive, like
having diversity biodiversity.
Having diversity in our team hasalways been a source of
resilience, and not having thatdiversity has always been a
source of vulnerability, likegoing all the way back through
(22:44):
how organisms even adapt andthrive. So we would never be
like, well, those tomatoes don'tdeserve a place in our salad
because they require too muchsunshine, and how dare they
Right? Like, we just wouldn't dothat. We would be like, Okay,
let's put the tomatoes in thesunshine. Let's put the lettuce
in the shade, and let's makesure that those cucumbers have
(23:05):
some pollinators around, becauseotherwise I'm going to be out
there a little paintbrushpollinating every morning. So
you know, like that's what wewould do, we would take a more
curious, observant framework tosee what does the system need to
thrive if we can detachourselves and our identity and
our, you know, like self biases,yes, right? Like, if I think
(23:29):
tomatoes are the most amazingthing, and anything that's not a
tomato because I'm a tomato islike less than, well, maybe I'm
not going to be as concernedwith the lettuce and the and the
cucumbers thriving.
Celeste Warren (23:39):
I love that analogy. Love that Erica. That's
perfect. That's perfect.
Erica D'Eramo (23:46):
Yeah, I still haven't managed to get a good
beefsteak tomato to thrive. Soif anybody has ideas out there,
let me know I can do the littleguys, but
Celeste Warren (23:53):
I don't want one to talk to. I am horrible.
Horrible. My husband isexcellent. The yard looks so
beautiful in the summer andfall, but, yeah, if I touched
it, it would be done.
Erica D'Eramo (24:05):
You know, not to, like, beat a dead horse on this
analogy. But I do think that forme, the big learning and I've
always been achievementoriented, right? And so I think
that that's maybe why I'veresisted gardening, because what
if I fail? What if my tomatoesfail? And I've had to reorient,
just like my leadership skillsreorient around like learning
(24:26):
and adapting and saying, Ah,okay, that didn't work. Next
time, what should I do? I can'ttalk to the plants to ask them,
but we can talk to the humans inour organization and ask them
what they need.
Celeste Warren (24:37):
Absolutely, you know, there's a there's a study,
and I can't remember which whodid it, but there is a direct
correlation to how frequently amanager meets one on one with
his team members, and the levelof productivity and the level of
(24:58):
engagement and the trust. Formswith the team and the manager,
and it's, you know, it's allabout, just like I said,
management, one on one, sittingthere and talking with
individuals. What do you need?
You know, contracting with them,partnering with them, and
saying, you know, what is itthat you need? What's getting in
the way from you being able todo your job, you know better
(25:19):
from you being able to develop,from you being able to reach
career aspirations that you wantto reach. You know what is
getting in the way? And let mehelp you to get those obstacles
blown out of the way and get youwhatever resources that you
need.
Erica D'Eramo (25:36):
Yeah, I think that there's this perception, at
least in our society, that, likemanagers are supposed to have
the answers. And so as a as aleadership coach, I so often
encounter these challenges wherepeople will say, I tried this,
and I've tried this, and like,nothing seems to motivate these
individuals. They're just lazy.
Blah, blah, blah. Like, lazy isa tricky word. I don't know that
I I even believe it exists.
(26:00):
Maybe lacking motivation, mightbe one, one line of inquiry, but
when I turn it back, though, andwe come to the idea that maybe
you're not supposed to know whatthese individuals need, and you
have to ask them, because theyare different than you. They
have different needs. That seemsto be as soon as people come to
(26:21):
it, they're like, oh, shoot,yeah, I could just ask them, but
it like, doesn't always occur.
That we could just askindividuals and just, you know,
if they're not performing towhat we would expect, or we're
not getting the outcomes that wewould expect, the problem is not
necessarily them. Yeah, a lot oftimes we default to, like, I've
tried everything and nothing'sworking. Well, did you? Did you
ask them what might work? Andthen it's like, oh, shoot, I
(26:43):
could just ask them, right?
They're humans. They can talk tous. It's not Lu it's not a
tomato plant. And that, I don'tknow if that is like, seen as
weakness or vulnerability, but Ido wish folks could could detach
from that idea that they have tohave all the answers, and if
(27:03):
they if the system isn'tresponding the way they would
expect, then the system isbroken. And maybe try to
embrace, like you said, liketouching base with people asking
the open ended questions withoutjudgment about, like, what would
work.
Celeste Warren (27:17):
Absolutely, you know, you know, you you've heard
the whole thing around thepyramid and organizational
structure. The leaders are onlysupposed to be know so much
anyway, and they're supposed tobe depending on the employees
within the organization tounderstand and know what they're
doing. And their role is toguide. You know, lead, here's
the vision, and then, you know,from an operational standpoint,
(27:41):
everybody knows how to do theirjob. It's just they need someone
that's going to lead and providea vision and to where they need
to be. And, you know, a lot ofleaders, they just don't
understand that. You know, it'sfunny, you know, same thing that
you said during the time of2020, there was such around the
time of murder of George Floydin the in the the pandemic. And
(28:05):
it's like, oh, you know, how amI going to lead? How I'm going
to manage people? I'm not evenseeing them on a day to day
basis. And it's like, well, thisis a global company. You weren't
seeing people face to face,except for the guys and the gals
that were around your office,your rest of your team, if your
team is global, you weren'tseeing them face to face anyway,
every day. So how is this goingto be changing how your
(28:27):
management style? It really didshine a light on the inequities
of people's management stylesfrom a proximity standpoint,
proximity bias, you know, andyou know, being able to be they
had to work really, really hardto demonstrate inclusive
leadership, you know, from thestandpoint of the virtual
(28:48):
meetings and making sure thatthey're giving everyone an
opportunity to to speak up, orif they don't feel comfortable
speaking up, put your points inthe chat and and, you know,
reading the chat And talkingabout different points and
acknowledging people's inputs.
It was just the it just reallyshined a light on it. And then,
from the standpoint of peopleduring the May timeframe and the
(29:08):
murder of George Floyd, theywere like, Oh, I don't want to
say anything. It was like thisparalysis of leadership because
they were like, afraid to saythe wrong thing, and it's like,
no, your silence is deafening.
You just reach out, maybe textor talk to people, one on one.
(29:30):
How are you feeling? You know, Idon't have all of the answers,
and freely admit that I don'thave humility. You know, I'm
here if you want to talk, I knowhow to listen, and I'm going to
listen to you, and we can have aconversation and a dialog.
Please feel free to reach out.
But you know, that's all thatthat's needed sometimes, you
(29:50):
know, but it was, it was aninteresting time, and like I
said, those folks that werenaturally good leaders.
Empathetic listeners, high IQand EQ. They did a great job,
but others, it shined a light ontheir challenges and areas for
(30:10):
development as leaders. And itwas really an interesting time.
Erica D'Eramo (30:17):
This is where I get to, like, what are we
measuring? Because I really feelthere. I still hear it with all
the return to office stuff,like, we I need people nearby.
Otherwise, how do I know whatthey're working on? Well, if you
don't know what the performanceof your team needs to be, if you
don't know the impact that yourteam is having without seeing
butts in seats, like, if that'sthe closest analog you have to
(30:38):
productivity, productivity ofwhat is it just busyness? Is it
just presence, or are youactually like, producing and
doing things? And if that's thecase, what does the proximity
give you? What does time in theoffice give you, if it truly is
giving you lots of like, touchpoints and ability to support
people better? Great. I couldsee the argument for that. But
if it's just like, the closestanalog I have to the performance
(31:00):
management of my team is time indesk seats, then I would say
that that's a leadership gap.
And that's like, maybe not beingclear on what the impact is of
your team on the broaderorganization, but I don't know
that we're measuring that. AndI'm about to, like, maybe I'm
about to open a can of wormshere, but there's a big
conversation around I'm going touse a firefighting as a
(31:22):
framework, like, how we evaluatefirefighters, and a lot of times
the evaluation is like, can youcarry this super heavy dummy up
a ladder, right? Like, can youdo these very strength based
activities and endurance basedactivity. I think that that all
that might be very, veryimportant for being able to be a
(31:44):
good firefighter. Some of thethings we're not necessarily
measuring, though, is, Howflexible are you? How can you
coax a small child out of aenclosed space? How? How well
can you perceive unspoken fearsfrom like, somebody who's
paralyzed by fear, like some ofthese other elements that
probably are impactful to theability to do the job, but we
(32:06):
are fixated on this very narrowset, and maybe say the military.
Right now, there's conversationabout, like, the highest male
standard. Okay, well, how aboutmarksmanship? How about the
ability to regulate your nervoussystem and control your blood
pressure and control your heartrate under stress. Like some of
these things are actually quitetypically female strengths, but
(32:27):
maybe we're not measuring forthem when we say, you know,
meritocracy. So I'm on a littlebit of a tangent, but let me get
your thoughts. What are? What'syour...
Celeste Warren (32:37):
No, I absolutely, absolutely think
you're true. It's, you know, Iused to say, oh, decades ago,
that a lot of leaders andmanagers manage to this
distribution curve, and theymanage the top of the
distribution curve, where, youknow, 40 to 60, maybe 70% of the
people are, and they forgetabout those people that are on
(33:00):
the fringes. Now, fast forward2025, years, 30 years, the
people that were on the fringes.
Now, from a demographicstandpoint, they're up there in
the top, you know, getting tothat top of that circle. And you
know, it's how do you understandthem? So from a business
standpoint, yeah, understandingyour customer, understanding the
(33:22):
customer base, understandingwhat it is that is getting in
the way from them being able toenjoy the product or the service
that you provide. And if youdon't understand that as part of
your basic foundationalmarketing strategy and sales
strategy and how you go tomarket, you are missing out on
huge, huge revenues, and so notunderstanding that, and thinking
(33:47):
that, Oh well, you know, I'mstill going to be managing to
this, top of this distributioncurve, which I'm assuming,
because of my bias, is whiteMale, 40 to 60 years old, and
you know in today's demographicsglobally, if you're a global
organization, you have tounderstand and segment your
(34:08):
customer base, and that meansunderstanding them across all of
the identities, across all thedifferent dimensions of
diversity that exist In peoplearound the globe and and really
study that. And that's basicthat. Now that's basic 101,
marketing 101, they used to callit, decades ago, multicultural
(34:29):
marketing. And now it's justbasic marketing. It you know
that it's, it's, you can'tsucceed as an organization if
you don't understand that,
Erica D'Eramo (34:42):
I there have been, like, so many commercials,
you know, where the afterwards,the debrief is like, oh, you
know that there was, like, not ablack woman in the room when
they decided to move forwardwith that. I'm like, there might
have been, but she might nothave had a powerful, you know,
like her voice might not havebeen elevated to the point that
it needed to be in thatconversation. Conversation. But
yeah, some of these, again, it'sto speak to not that, like
(35:06):
resilience of diversity and thevulnerability of not having
that, because you have moreblind spots, you have more
Achilles heels then. So I justbriefly, I just want to touch on
it, because I think it's beencoming up a lot in my circles,
in the coaching circles, and theconsultant circles, certainly in
(35:28):
the HR circles, um, what areyour thoughts on the whole Sherm
thing and and some of thedecisions that they've made and
pivoted in terms of equity? Inparticular.
Celeste Warren (35:38):
I I, frankly, personally, I'm very
disappointed. I really, reallyam. It's an HR organization, one
of the largest HR organizations,that is about understanding the
people, practices and strategiesin organizations, and that means
being able to make sure thatyou're reaching all of the
people from an inclusionstandpoint, and that means that
(36:01):
you have to put acts of equityin place. And you know, the the
reasoning back, I guess it wasnow it's going on a couple years
now maybe of, hey, we're justnot going to focus on equity, or
we're taking that out, becauseit's just not working. And I
can't remember what the excusewas...
Erica D'Eramo (36:22):
Like, divisive. I think...
Celeste Warren (36:23):
yeah, divisive...that doesn't it.
That's like saying, Oh, well,we're not going to use this word
because we're not going to usethe word eating because it's
divisive. But we all still knowwe have to do it in order to
thrive. It's just the logic doesthis doesn't compute with me.
And then, you know, I just feelthat as an organization that is
(36:46):
responsible for helping humanresources, professionals and
leaders develop strategies inorganizations, that that's just
a disservice I really, reallydo.
Erica D'Eramo (37:00):
Yeah, yeah, I chose not to. I mean, for what
it's worth, I chose not. Iactually personally chose not to
renew my SHRM membership,because it felt to me that if
we're not going to be real intalking about this, then I can't
really rely on the organizationto be a thought leader in this
space. So that was my ownpersonal decision, and I put a
(37:20):
lot into that, you know, I was aSHRM SCP certification so that,
you know, even the exam itself,I think, like so many hours, but
that was, to me, I need peopleto be talking about, like the
reality of it, and not paperpapering over or avoiding the
challenging conversation. If wehave a misunderstanding about
what the term equity means, thenwe need to be having
(37:43):
conversations like you and I arehaving. We need to be like,
actually getting clear aboutwhat do we mean, rather than
avoiding it and leaving it aslike a landmine to uncover.
Celeste Warren (37:53):
Yeah, it's just, you know, and you know, this
year, last year, it didn't startwith the current administration.
It is actually saw this pendulumshifting probably as early as
late 2021 going into 2022 andthen we saw the Roe v Wade
overturned and the the decisionwith Harvard and UNC and around
(38:21):
the criteria used foradministration of students. And
we just started to see thisstarting to happen in this anti
dei rhetoric, and it justreached this crescendo and just
slapped us in the face thisyear. And so, you know, a lot of
corporations, they're, they're,you know, thinking, and how do I
approach this? What do I do? Howdo I do this? And pulling back
(38:44):
and and some are pulling back,some are depleting in entirety,
and others are just reshaping,kind of the nomenclature of what
they're doing. But if you lookat any of the studies, McKinsey,
any of them, the CEOs, knowthat, as I was saying earlier,
(39:04):
it's good for business. It'simperative for business. They
have to understand theircustomers. They have to
understand their the labormarket. They have to understand
all these different things thatcome with the differences that
you see in people and andshareholders. Understand it too,
because they're voting down alot of these, yeah, these
(39:25):
proposals. So, you know, there,there is still hope. I believe
that wholeheartedly, and I thinkthat you know this too shall
pass, but we have to hold fastand steadfast. We have to put
the truth out there as it existsand and help people to
understand and open up thedialog in a productive way.
Erica D'Eramo (39:48):
Yeah, those shareholders are not voting for
simply like this isn't this? Isnot just a sympathy vote or
anything like that. They have,they've invested in these.
Companies for a financialreturn. Like, I hate to boil it
down to that, but theyfundamentally see the financial
benefit and the impact benefitof their, you know, their
(40:10):
wealth, their wealth building byadhering to these policies. And
so, yeah, I do think thatultimately it's a both and
right. It's like these are, thisis both the right and ethical
thing to do and also thefinancially incentivized and
wise thing to do. So absolutely.
What would you say before wekind of close up for today or
(40:33):
close out the conversation fortoday? What would you say? The
key takeaway is that you wouldlike listeners to walk away
with, if there's one thing.
Celeste Warren (40:42):
I would say, if there's one thing I'd like for
the listeners to walk away withis helping them to understand
that equity is not a dirty word.
It is something that's neededfor people to be effective
managers, effective leaders, andbeing able to build trust in
their organizations with thepeople that they manage and
lead, and it's also goodbusiness sense so they can
(41:05):
understand customers and be ableto meet their needs as well.
Erica D'Eramo (41:11):
Awesome. And for folks who loved this sampler
that they got on the podcast andwant to learn more, read more,
where can they find you and yourwork?
Celeste Warren (41:22):
They can go to my website, www.crwdiversity.com
that's CRdiversity.com and I'malso on Instagram. It's
CRWdiversity. And I am alsogoing to be, soon to be
(41:42):
launching a YouTube channel aswell. So
Erica D'Eramo (41:45):
Exciting,
Celeste Warren (41:46):
Yeah, yeah. And LinkedIn, of course, under
Celeste Warren, she/her. Sothere are lots of different
ways, and you can get the bookon Amazon. It's available, and
also in bookstores around theglobe as well.
Excellent. So we'll be linkingto that in the show notes and on
our website, and for anyonelistening who would like to
(42:08):
review the summary of today'sepisode, you can find that on
the website along with thoselinks. And we'll put a link to
the book as well. We typicallylink to bookshop.org just so
folks can support their localbookshops if they want to do
that, but we will, yeah, we'lldefinitely make sure folks know
where to find you. And thank youso much for coming on and
sharing your wisdom and yourinsights and just having a
(42:30):
really good conversation.
Well, thank you, Erica for theinvitation. I really, really
enjoyed it.
Erica D'Eramo (42:36):
Awesome. We look forward to seeing our listeners
next episode.
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