May 29, 2025 • 54 mins
In this episode of the Two Piers Podcast, host Erica D’Eramo speaks with author, songwriter, and authenticity advocate Molly Booker about the power of self-discovery and living an unfiltered life. Molly shares her journey from a tightly controlled, perfection-driven existence to one rooted in truth, vulnerability, and creative freedom.
Together, they explore how shedding societal expectations and the illusion of control can lead to a more joyful and fulfilling life. Molly discusses coming out, leaving her pastoral role, and the transformative impact of seminary and spiritual psychology. She also shares how creativity and rest became essential tools for healing and alignment.
This is a powerful conversation for anyone craving permission to let go of the checklist and embrace the messy, beautiful process of becoming who you really are.
Topics Covered:
- Redefining success beyond perfection and achievement
- Coming out and embracing personal identity
- The role of spiritual psychology in Molly’s transformation
- Letting go of control and leaning into vulnerability
- The healing power of creativity, rest, and authentic self-expression
- Breaking free from societal norms to find true fulfillment
Resources and Mentions:
- Molly Booker’s book: Magic in the Mess
- Local bookstores mentioned:
- Stay Gold Bookstore, Pittsburgh, PA
- The Bookworm, Edwards, CO
- Recommended reading on rest, productivity, and purpose (as discussed by Erica)
Where to Find Molly:
- Website: mollybooker.com
- Substack: https://substack.com/@mollybooker
- Book: Magic in the Mess, available via Bookshop.org to support local independent bookstores
Like What You Heard?
Be sure to subscribe, leave a review, and share this episode with someone who needs a reminder that there's magic in the mess.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Erica D'Eramo (00:04):
Hello and welcome to the Two Piers podcast. I'm
your host, Erica D'Eramo, andtoday we have Molly Booker
joining us. So Molly is anauthor, songwriter and advocate
for self discovery andauthenticity. Her book, Magic in
the Mess, explores the beautyfound in life's chaos, while her
song, no more boxes, recorded innationals, legendary black bird
studio, challenges societalexpectations around identity,
(00:28):
passionate about storytelling,personal growth and meaningful
connection, she strives toinspire others to embrace their
truth, slow down and recognizethe internal nudges that guide
them. I can't wait to talk toMolly today about the magic in
the mess. Thanks for joining usfor this episode of the Two
Piers Podcast.
(00:57):
Hey Molly, thanks for being onthe podcast with us.
Molly Booker (01:00):
Oh my gosh, thank you for having me. I was just
looking ahead of what we'regoing to talk about today. And
I'm like, I'm I'm ready. I'mlike, Yeah, let's go.
Erica D'Eramo (01:12):
Awesome. Yeah. I mean, it's been great getting to
meet you and hear about yourjourney a bit, and and the magic
in the mess, which is somethingI think I'm I'm really embracing
in this phase of life so, verytimely, very timely.
Molly Booker (01:27):
Yeah, I love it. I just the way that life works,
right? The one thing that Iultimately wanted to avoid was
mess and, yeah, it took a whileto really not just like be
willing to even dabble in themess, but to then prefer to
(01:48):
spend my time there. So
Erica D'Eramo (01:50):
Yeah, for sure.
Yeah. So, I mean, there's somany directions we could take it
in, but let's start first withwhat's your What was your
journey like? Who, what took youto the Molly that we see today?
Molly Booker (02:07):
Yeah, I love that.
It's like, okay, where do I wantto start this one today? But I
think just going with where wewere starting is that I really
defined myself by success andthe opposite of mess. So I like
things perfect. My spaces werevery neat and organized. I am
(02:28):
one of those people that alwaysneeds to, like, take everything
out of the car that came in withit that day, french fries and
stuff like, no no. Just likedeverything really handled. I
liked all the boxes checked, andlived my life that way. And I
(02:48):
thought that this really made mesuccessful. I mean, that was a
great way to achieve threemaster's degrees to me, that
felt very successful to always,you know, work right up to the
top of whatever business ororganization I was in. And so I
thought, like, Okay, I'mcrushing life here. I've got it
(03:11):
handled. I've got my retirementaccounts, and I have my home
and, you know, I'm doing thethings and the stuff. And the
thing for me is I I was neverhappy, and I thought maybe that
was just like a character defector something, like, I am missing
the happiness gene or something,because the more that I'm
(03:34):
achieving, society is telling methat I should be ecstatic by
now, and I'm not. I have plentyof money, I have great friends.
What is going on? And it had mein my life, really take a look
at what does success mean to me?
And I thought it meant having itall handled, having it all
(03:56):
together, it looks good, andachieving and that just wasn't
working for me. And so it reallytook something for me to really
just own that to myself, thisdefinition of success isn't
working anymore, not evenanymore. It never really worked
for me, but to be willing tojust say, I don't know, I don't
(04:20):
know what this is going to looklike, and to reinvent it. And
I'd say, through this journey ofwriting this book, and, you
know, the last five years or so,I'd say, you know, my definition
of success has really morphedinto knowing myself. And what's
fascinating to me is I reallythought I knew myself. I mean,
(04:41):
in my late 40s, like, come on, II know what I like, I know what
I don't like. And turns out, Ididn't know myself at all. And I
had really designed myself to bethis organized, successful
person, and that kept me really.
Really stuck in boxes that werenot authentic, and it kept me
(05:01):
from even knowing that myselfand huge things like my
sexuality. Are you kidding me?
How did I not know that I wasgay, like everybody else is
like, Molly, duh. But I'm like,I didn't see it. I just thought,
(05:23):
Man, I really struggle to be inrelationship. I've been divorced
twice. Why is this so hard forme? And again, I made that
something wrong about me, like Imust just really suck at
relationships. There must besomething unlovable about me.
And come to find out, no, I I'mgay. So that is why this was not
(05:45):
working. But I think in thisjourney, it's had me really come
home to myself in some reallytender and honest ways to say,
Oh, wow, I was so wrong aboutmyself. This, this wasn't a
defect about myself. This was Ijust didn't know myself.
Erica D'Eramo (06:06):
Yeah, what brought it? Like, what brought
about the awareness? What wasthe pivotal moment? Or was it
gradual? Like, how did you kindof reach this realization?
Molly Booker (06:19):
Yeah, I think it was both, don't you love it when
Yeah, was it this or this? Andthe person's like, yes.
Erica D'Eramo (06:26):
Actually, as a coach, I do because shame on me
for asking a closed endedquestion there. So yes, what was
it?
Molly Booker (06:34):
I you know, again, it's just been quite a journey.
And for me, it really, I'd say,started when I was 35 I hit
suicidal crisis, and I'm like,this way of living my life is
just not working. I don't wantto do it. I'm not happy, I, I,
you know, not just not happy,but I am in so much suffering.
(06:56):
I, if this is what life is, Iwould just rather not do it. And
so from that point on, it'sreally been a journey about, how
can I want to wake up in themorning? That's really all I was
after. If I could just want towake up in the morning, that
would be great. And so here goesthis journey. And it ended up,
you know, getting a master's inspiritual psychology, and that
(07:19):
really opening up for, you know,a spiritual conversation. And
then did a lot of work insuicide prevention, and then
that kind of the journey led toministry. And so I went to
seminary school, and I thought Iwas going to learn all the
answers in seminary, like, Okay,finally I'm going to get the
Bible unlocked. Like, you'rejust gonna tell me what it all
(07:41):
means, and then I'll be able totell my congregation what it
means. This is great, and that'snot at all what seminary was
about. Spirit awesome led me tothe most progressive seminary
school. It's just like, hey,this is the one in Denver, and
this is the ones close. But howfitting that I went to seminary
(08:03):
that was talking a lot about ourlocation and our privilege and
our talking about race andgender and identity and
sexuality, and kept thinkinglike, what does this have to do
with religion? Like, it cracksme up that that thought occurred
to me, like, what does sexualityand gender and identity and race
(08:25):
have to do with religion? Likeit, it's funny to me, like, how
much I didn't know, but leaninginto there, I think, started to
open the doors, to really lookat, what do I believe, and who
am I, and what are the valuesthat I hold? And I think that
seminary opened the space. Itcreated a space to talk about
(08:49):
it, and for me to say, Wow, somethings that I really thought I
knew for sure. I'm not surethat. I'm not sure that I really
believe that to be true, or I'mnot sure that that really makes
as much sense as I thought itdid. So there was a lot of
undoing in seminary, a lot ofdeconstruction in seminary, and
(09:12):
a lot of questions of what, whatdo I want my life to be about?
And do I really think that mywhite males are like the
pinnacle of success, like, maybethat's not quite what I thought
it was. And so that door I thinkwas opening to ask myself some
(09:33):
deep questions. And then Istarted, you know, having
questions about race and genderexpression and identity and
sexuality, and you know, all interms of like, well, this is
really good information for mycongregation. This is going to
be great and importantconversations for the kids in
the congregation, like, and alsofor myself and. So one of my
(10:01):
good friends, not that longafter, came and said, You know,
I think I'm your person. And Iwas like, you know, like Grey's
Anatomy, like Meredith andChristina, like were BFFs. And
she was like, No, not quite likethat. Like, I am in love with
you. And I was like, Oh, um, oh,wow. And I think because of that
(10:28):
space that had opened up throughseminary, I was able to look at
it and say, Oh, wow. Okay, youknow that this doesn't fit in
the mental picture and theconstructs that I had for
myself, but trusting my heart,it feels so right. And so then
it was like, you know, findingmy person and falling in love
(10:51):
kind of came first. And then waslike, Oh, I guess I'm coming out
at this time too. And that's alot of the mess of it, you know,
of wow, maybe I don't knowmyself as well as I thought I
did. Maybe I don't I'm not asclear that my beliefs are as
locked in as I thought that theywere. Maybe there's a lot that I
(11:11):
don't know, and I think it wasthe willingness to step into the
messiness of the unknowing ofI'm not sure, and allowing that
space for something different?
Erica D'Eramo (11:24):
Yeah, I have so many thoughts. I have so many,
so many different directions Icould take it. One would be like
some, I don't know, probablyinappropriate joke about how we
think it's like drag queen storytime, but actually, it's the
church that's opening people'seyes to their queerness. But I
(11:45):
think that, oh, there's athere's a whole thread there,
but I'll leave that for now.
There's a piece. There's a pieceinstead, that seems like another
third rail topic around, it'snot politics, but there's kind
of a, there's a theory aroundgovernments, right? And this
(12:07):
what they call the J curve, andit's something, I'm not going to
do it justice here, but that, ifyou just keep you kind of two
sides of the spectrum where youhave quote, unquote stability.
And on one side of the spectrum,it's like very tight control,
and you have to retain supertight autocratic control to
(12:32):
maintain the stability. And ifyou budge from that at all, it
kind of plummets down that curvevery, very quickly, and so the
stakes are very high, but on theother side of the curve, it's
like messier, more open, butit's much more that stable
system is much more stable. Andsometimes as you, as you're
talking through that just makingme think about this relationship
(12:55):
that maybe I had with theconcept of control and fitting
into these boxes and like I willbe safe here, and yet it needs
to stay so tightly in that box,like the it's such a narrow
realm to operate in, because ifyou stray off of that at all, it
starts to feel very unstable,versus this more like messy,
(13:18):
organic way of finding whattruly life is and and straying
off the narrow path to discoverwhat it truly is that, in the
end, is a much more stable,sustainable system. But like,
there's that safety, there's aperceived safety, I think for
(13:40):
whether it's a individual humanor a government system, there's
a perceived safety of havingvery rigid, structured controls
and and maintaining that tightlywith an iron fist, and it's not
always sustainable or stable orthe best use of human life.
Molly Booker (14:02):
Yeah, I really relate to what you're saying,
and that is how I thought I wasgoing to achieve stability and
Erica D'Eramo (14:06):
I think it was a few months ago we had an episode
safety. I think safety was whatI was really, really after
around complex relationshipswith food. And the reason I
without realizing it. But Ithink leading into this idea of
perfectionism, like, if I canjust keep everything you know,
like, that is the ultimate ofcontrol, like I want it to be
reached out to Carrie Baker wasthe name of the licensed
(14:30):
perfect, and it is just likeholding your breath kind of and
and really had a lot of controlon myself, like I was really
clinical social worker that wehad on to take talk about that.
controlled what I ate, when Iexercised, my morning routine,
my spiritual practice was sostrict. I think it's funny now,
And the reason I had reached outto her about this was because I
but I was super strict withmyself, and one of. To hold it
(14:54):
all in, so that you know, it'slike, well, this is going to
feel like I do a lot of work. Ido a lot of work with people
keep my world safe, and this isgoing to keep my world
predictable, and to me, that isgoing to make it easier to
operate. But it was like, kindof like trying to hold a beach
across the gender spectrum,actually, but many of the women
ball underwater, like that thingis trying to tip every which
(15:18):
away, every millisecond it isexhausting, trying to, like,
I work with, especially womenworking in male dominated
keep it all together. And I wasterrified, like, terrified of
that getting out of control. Andthe second it felt that way, I
industries, tend to be highachievers, right? Like very
would just, like, double down,like, okay, you know, like, I'm,
(15:39):
I'm, I'm, you know, gonna eat Ilike, I'll do the whole 30, you
achievement oriented, and thathas served them very well, but
know, except I'm gonna do thatfor 100 days. I'll do the whole
100, you know. Like, really getstrict with myself. And I just
there is a very high correlationbetween that high achievement,
kept feeling like, the stricterI am, and the more discipline
(15:59):
and the more willpower, like,the more anxious I am. Like, I'm
control, orderly, havingpredictability, you know, being
anxious and stressed out all thetime. But by the definition like
I should be, this should begreat, because I am really
able to keep things tightlypackaged and complicated
structured, and so I love totake on a word of the year, and
I love to take on a word of theyear that makes me super
(16:22):
relationships with food andbody, because it's one, one of
uncomfortable. And so a fewyears ago, I took on Messi and
like, I could hardly talk aboutit at the beginning of like, but
the many outlets for it. But Ithink it shows up, and there's a
I'm going to lean in, because Ifeel like it's really got a grip
on me right now. And what I wasfinding is is that the more like
(16:44):
high correlation. So it'sinteresting that you brought up
when I did let the beach ball upa little bit, like, yes, it
popped up in ways that I didn'tplan and I didn't expect. But it
food a lot, because I think,like, you know, I have a history
wasn't just like, oh, I canhandle the mess, or I can handle
the unpredictable things. It'slike, wouldn't you know it, the
(17:04):
things that had been eluding mewere in that messiness, like all
of disordered eating. I don'treally like that word. I have a
of a sudden, I was finding me,like more of my authentic
expression. I was finding reallydeep love and connection and the
history with definitely somesome food challenges, and it
things that I had always beenlooking for thinking I would
(17:25):
find it the other way ofbelonging, acceptance, love,
showed up in different ways inmy life, but I see it as so tied
patience. I never really didfind it in that model, but when
I just allowed more got in thatspace of like, I don't know,
into that need for control thatI had previously around, like,
beach balls taken off in a weirddirection right now, and it
looked like really life alteringthings of my changing my
(17:48):
sexuality and getting divorcedand coming out and leaving the
if I can just have everythingyou mentioned perfectionism,
church. I was a pastor in achurch, and left that lifelong
career and moved, you know,these major, major life
right? Like we we do encouragethat a lot, especially within
transitions, which, you know, Ihad no, like, opposite of
control all of a sudden, andit's like, wow, suddenly I'm
(18:10):
little girls as kids, right? Getthe straight A's. Behave in
really enjoying the experienceof my life, yeah, which is funny
in the places that I had sodreaded, like, really, really
class. Have everything be niceand neat and tidy. Don't cause
kept at bay.
Molly Booker (18:23):
Yeah, so many things. And like, Yes, I just, I
disruptions. And yet, I. Thereare infinite ways to be
imperfect, and there is only oneway to be perfect, right? Like
(18:54):
there's one any little scratchor flaw or anything, it's not
perfect. And so in coaching, wetalk a lot about, like,
(19:14):
achievement goals versusavoidance goals. And when you're
avoiding imperfection, I mean,there's just such a narrow, such
(19:36):
a low probability right of justof actually having that, versus
focusing on what it is, what isit that you do want to foster
(19:59):
and achieve in life? And you'regonna have a lot of these, like
bumps and bruises and mistakesand learnings and all the
(20:20):
messiness of it along the way.
But, oh, that was a lot of justall over the place and non
linear thinking right there. Soas I say that, what's, what's
(20:42):
coming to mind for you?
really, really relate to that.
And I think it, it has methinking back to kind of where
we started this conversation,and what did success mean to me
growing up and there, I mean, itwas really clear what success
(21:07):
was. Success was, you know, I'vesaid it and I'll say it again.
You know, it really was white,cis, heterosexual male. Was
really like the top of success,and it looked very athletic,
strong, skinny, rich, educatedlike those are the things. Those
(21:30):
are the measures of success.
Well, what do I do? As you know,the only girl in our family to
be successful. And for me, Ireally denied my my sexuality. I
did well. I denied my gender aswell, like I denied all my
(21:53):
femininity. You know, it's justlike I just want to be as male
as I can get, because that is,to me, what I'm showing is
successful. And so, you know,here's this strict way that I'm
going to find success in theworld, and I'm going to really,
you know, really police myself alot with what I do, to work, to
(22:20):
effort to eat, you know, allthese things with such so strict
on all of those things. And Ithink that it's, it's been
fascinating how much there isstill tied up in in that idea.
But as I've come out and reallyseen like that, that isn't the
(22:42):
model that works for me, thatisn't the model that I want my
life to be about. That is notthe model that I want to teach
my kid either, that it is youknow about authenticity and
really honoring who I am andhonoring the authenticity of who
each individual is. And man,have I had to confront myself
(23:05):
over and over and over and justhow much judgment I've had
around, not only my own weightand my belly and my hips, but,
you know, I have judged 1000s ofpeople, you know, in the
airport, you know, it's just aslike, Oh my gosh. Am I this
human that is just like,immediately putting people in
boxes based on what they looklike or their weight? Yeah, I
(23:28):
did that for a long time. It'shard to it's hard to own that.
But lately, spending more timewith, you know, going to yoga
classes with all body shapes andlike how how impactful that has
been, and how helpful that hasbeen, versus going, you know, to
(23:50):
a yoga of, you know, who canpretzel themselves the longest
and the hardest in thinnest,little teeny way, You know. And
now I'm seeing these like, largebodies, like, and just the
beauty in them and the power inthem is really had me do a lot
of work on my own body image.
And, you know, I'm heavier thanI've ever been in my life. And
(24:13):
like, and I feel like I, I'm, Iwant to be that way right now to
really look at, you know, whatdoes my body want to do, and how
am I defining beauty andattraction and all of these
things, and it's so interestingto me, like I just took for
granted What these definitionswere. You know, what does
(24:38):
attraction mean? You know? Andto me, I thought that meant
blonde, skinny lipstick, tight,tight clothes, high heels. That
just does not work for me. Sorather than thinking, Hmm,
there's something wrong withthis, dei. Definition of
attraction, because that doesn'tfit me. It's like, well, I
(25:01):
there's something wrong with me,and I've done that everywhere in
my life. If something isn'tworking, like, I'm the problem,
rather than saying, like, wait asecond, I need to slow down and
take a look at this definitionof what what does strength mean?
What does beauty mean? What doesauthenticity mean? What does
success mean? What doeshappiness mean? What does rest
(25:23):
mean, you know, and just thesehuge areas of like weight and
efforting and approving and, youknow, versus just being and
existing, and, yeah, my lifelooks completely different than
it did in my 20s. Like it's justnot at all what I thought it
(25:45):
was.
Erica D'Eramo (25:49):
I talked about this, like aha moment on the
podcast before, so listenersmight remember it, but I had
this moment. Well, Ispecifically remember standing
offshore with someone who cameout there to do some
assessments, and they he wasvery well thought, like well,
(26:13):
very well respected, I think,because he was very good at what
he did, but kind of struck fearin everybody's hearts and I had
never met him, but I'd heard,you know, this guy's really,
really tough, and he's justgonna come and cause us all a
bunch of headache with all thesefindings. And he pulled me into
a conference room. He was like,Hey, you have a minute? I want
to talk to you. And I was like,oh no, oh no. What's gonna
(26:35):
happen? And he pulled me aside,and he was like, Uh, these guys
are trying to make your lifehell. And I was like, what? And
he said, I know it. I can seeit. I hear about it. I just want
you to know I've got your back,but don't let them win. And I
was like, it was such a complexset of emotions that I had,
(26:56):
because on the one hand, I wasfelt so affirmed that he could
see it. But on the other hand, Ithought, but my life is so
short, like, I don't want tospend it playing a game like
this and, and I realized that,like the game, you know, you go
to a carnival and you want to goplay the whatever, get the the
ball in the in the bottle thing,or get the like, the hoop around
(27:20):
the bottle, right? And you spendall this money, and you're so
fixated on try after try, andyou just want that, like, teddy
bear that's hanging right thereand and it'll, this is the game
that's been set up, and you'regonna beat it. But, like, the
teddy bear only means somethingbecause they said it meant
something. You could go buy theteddy bear online, for, I don't
(27:43):
know, $1.50 it was probably madeusing, you know, enslaved labor
that's underpaid and not, notethical. And then you gave the
house all your money, right? Youspent all your and you put your
value as a human or as somebodywho can throw rings around
bottles. You delegated that tothem, you abscon, you know, like
(28:07):
you just handed that over tosomebody else to determine. And
I realized, like the game isrigged, they benefit from me
buying into it. And ultimately,I don't need the stupid teddy
bear or the title, right? Like,in this case, it was the title.
I don't need that you tricked meinto playing this game and
believing in this game, becauseyou benefit from it the longer
(28:29):
I'm bought in. Ultimately, if Iat the end of my life, I get to
say, Oh, see those guys outthere that I don't even like,
agree with or have shared valueswith or care about I showed them
versus, wow. I lived a life,doing what I wanted to do,
loving who I wanted to love,spending my time the way I
wanted to spend it, impactingthe people I wanted to impact.
(28:51):
Like, which of those two feelsright? You know, like it was
just this aha moment of, ohshoot, I'm playing somebody
else's game. I'm gonna take myball and go home.
Molly Booker (29:01):
Oh my gosh. I love that metaphor. And now metaphor
for life, so much of just thelike, arbitrary nature of like,
okay, you're gonna take thisrandom ring and put it around
this random bottle in the exactway that I tell you to, and then
(29:23):
I'm gonna give you this randomarbitrary thing, you know, and
just like how vested I was inthat game, like so vested, and
how much I made, who I was as Aperson, my value, my worth, so
dependent on that. It brings up,you know, gosh, it just brings
(29:46):
up so much emotion now of howhard I was on myself that I
happened to really suck atputting that ring around that
bottle and thinking like my wifedoesn't have value because I
can. To do this, one thing thatwe're calling is like a winner,
and you know just how difficultit has been to to make the
(30:13):
decision, like, I'm not going toplay that game anymore. Like it
has been so difficult to ownthat to myself and to, like,
really have some forgiveness formyself for how, how I showed up
playing that game, and how Itreated myself playing that
game. And I think that, youknow, one thing that I spend a
(30:38):
lot of time talking to my wifeabout and, you know, I think my
wife and my kid are really thegreatest teachers for me on this
of how I, you know, how I amvaluing and spending my time.
You know, I have had this deepseated thing, like, I need to
effort in order to, like, haveroom to exist. I need to learn,
(31:02):
you know? And, yep, that'llhard. It has been for me to play
the guitar or to practicedrawing cartooning, or to
venture into songwriting or togo for a walk, you know, it's
like I'm wasting my time, or I'mnot, you know, emailing, I'm not
(31:22):
producing, and, man, like, wow,that has been difficult to, you
know, it's kind of like, Wow. Igot so trapped in this game that
is really, really hard to gowalk around the rest of the
Carnival not thinking about thatdang bottle, you know? It's
(31:43):
like, Yeah, can't let it go. Butit is. It has been a practice of
like, okay, what? What would Ilove to do today? You know? And
it, it's hit all those nervesfor me, of like, I feel like I'm
being frivolous. I feel like I'mbeing lazy. I feel like I'm, you
(32:05):
know, not productive. But wow,what? How I've showed up as a
human to my family, my friends,living my life that way of
playing guitar and writing somesongs and talking to people and
cartooning and going to a comicbook store, like, how is that
(32:28):
going to do anything foranybody? And it's fascinating,
you know, that has moved theneedle more of the things that
really, really matter to me,which is authenticity and just
sharing my authentic life, Ithink, has unconsciously given
other people permission to dothe same, and that is what I
believe in, more than anything.
So it's like this, there couldbe nothing greater for me to do
(32:52):
than to authentically Expressand live my life. And I still
struggle because I'm like, canit be this good? You know, like,
right? Like, it's supposed to bepainful. Well, somebody said
that, but I don't think so.
Erica D'Eramo (33:14):
Or we're waiting for the other shoe to drop,
right? We're waiting for it'slike, all fall apart. I Yeah. I
mean, these are neural pathwaysthat have been developed over
decades, right? I agree. It'snot like I woke up that day and
I thought, Oh, that's it like,whatever, the scales have fallen
from my eyes, and now I seeclearly and it's all
(33:35):
illuminated. It's a practice,and I think especially, I still
see the control tendencies inmyself when I'm stressed or when
there's a values piece that'slike pinging for me that I think
there's a value under threat,and so I kind of revert to that
(33:55):
earlier version of my brain thatneeds that high level of
control. And I talk to clientsall the time who are like, Oh,
my boss needs this control, orthey need the control and like
that. Need for control is sodeep seated and takes so much
time. And the and the narrativesright around productivity and
(34:19):
worthiness, they take so muchtime to unpack, often with the
help of, like, a therapist and acoach, not doing therapy, but
like, focusing on what it is youdo on a manifest. But these
things self exploration. Andit's funny, you this is kind of
backtracking, but you mentionedthe yoga thing. And right before
(34:43):
you had mentioned yoga, and wewere talking about sort of
control and perfection, I wasremembering this one yoga class
I had where, and this was when Iwas still very like, very rigid
and controlled. So when yogaclass I had where the instructor
said they told us to, you know,class. So not over, but we were
gonna go into fast enough, like,the final resting pose and and
(35:05):
everybody was like, fidgeting,trying to get perfect on their
mat. And he was like, you guysdon't need to be perfect on the
mat. Like, what if you had anankle or, like, a heel just off
the mat a little, you'll beokay, right? And this just aha
moment of, I don't need to beperfectly aligned on my mat
during this final resting posewhere my eyes are closed and I'm
like, meditating, wow. Andclearly everybody in the room
(35:28):
was like feeling like this, thateven in yoga, which is about
like embracing where you're atand being present, we all need a
little reminder that we'll beokay if, like, our heel is not
perfectly on the mat. Yeah, thatmust have been over a decade
ago. I still remember thatmoment of, like, lying on my
mat, being like, whoa. I don'tneed. I don't need. I don't need
(35:50):
that.
Molly Booker (35:51):
Yeah, there was a time in my 30s when I was, you
know, in the thick of it, youknow, managing some medical
offices and working on mymasters and things like that.
And I decided I wanted to do atriathlon. And so I, you know,
was really going to get in shapeto do really well on this
(36:13):
triathlon. And so I starteddoing yoga three times a day,
morning, noon and nightpractice. And then, you know,
the workouts and all of it, andI was so obsessive and
competitive about yoga go in.
And I really, the whole time wasjudging myself based on, you
know, Can I do it the best? CanI balance the longest? Can I
hold this posture the mostperfectly? And, you know, and
(36:36):
when is this class over, youknow. And it's interesting, that
was my experience of yoga allthose hours that I was on the
mat was, you know, who's better,you know? And it really put me.
There was a big against this,you know, like, if you do
better, I do worse, you know, orif I'm better than you, or
(36:58):
you're worse than me, and comingto Nashville, of seeing just in
a completely differentexperience of yoga, of to see
that it's, it can't, it can be acompletely different experience
of how, like, how does thisposture feel in my body? Can
(37:21):
this be a way for me to comeinto my body? You know, it
doesn't really have anything todo with anybody else in the
room. Hilarious. Like, howdifferent those mindsets were,
or what I thought I was doing onthe matter why I was there, I
think, is really similar to, youknow, how I was living my life
(37:44):
before, very competitive, verymuch, judging, rating, good,
bad, right, wrong. And, youknow, it's interesting what that
experience is like to let go ofthat polarity, you know, of and
judgment. And just say, youknow, I'm really curious. What's
(38:04):
going to show up on my mattoday. You know, I'm curious.
Does this stretch feel likeexpansive or constrictive? Does
this feel good or not so good?
Would I like to hold it longeror not as long? Completely
different kind of conversation.
And I find, like, I am really,really delighted, like, and full
(38:25):
of curiosity and wonder aboutthe conversations that I'm
having, you know, on the mat ofmy life. Yeah, hey, you know of
what does it look like to torest? What does it look like to
enjoy comforts, or to play, or,you know, to create and do art?
(38:51):
And, you know, it's afascinating conversation, and I
don't know, I you know who's tosay, which one's right. I just
really enjoy the second morethan I was enjoying the first
way.
Erica D'Eramo (39:10):
I feel like I'd be remiss if I some of the these
topics are bringing up, like,books that I have really
enjoyed, that I feel like Iprobably recommend a lot. So I'm
going to throw them out therefor anyone listening that it's
like, well, first of all, folksshould check out your book.
Right? Magic in the mess, forsure. So we'll put that. We'll
put that up there. The book.
Rest is resistance by TrishaHersey. Is a really and it, it
(39:32):
kind of explores the connectionbetween really, like, this
productivity mindset. And howextrapolated that is tied to
white supremacy, tied to viewinghumans as resources to be
exploited and ultimately likethe enslavement of humans so
(39:56):
really powerful. But I. Undoingall the narrative around like,
do I deserve? You know, theconcept of deserving rest or
earning rest, and unpacking thatthe book, The Joy of saying no,
was another one that was so eyeopening for me in terms of
people's views of you and howmuch of our lives we spend
(40:16):
trying to avoid pissing otherpeople off. And then the last
one people or disappointing,yeah, disappointing, making them
sad. Yeah, like, but for someexternal, extrinsic, you know,
assessment that's notoriginating internally, that
maybe we've inherited the thatbelief, but not chosen it. And
(40:37):
then the last one was, that wasmore recently, was 4000 weeks.
And I think, you know, we might,we might have talked about 4000
weeks, but it's really aboutlike, if you live to 80, you
have approximately 4000 weeks onthe earth. That one's by Oliver
Berkman. And what are you doingwith that time? You know, are
you living it for other people?
(40:58):
Are you living it for yourself,and just not taking for granted
that we have all this time, thatwe'll figure it out later, that
at the end, we'll get the goldstar.
Molly Booker (41:08):
Yeah, right. You know some of my favorites, and
I've really, really loved theconversations lately that you
know, Glennon Doyle is havingElizabeth Gilbert, Brene Brown,
Martha Beck. And, you know, I'veloved the, you know, Brene
(41:30):
Brown, Gifts of Imperfection andreally looking at, I just went
to a seminar about creativitywith Elizabeth Gilbert and
Martha and just the importanceof art, you know, I always, you
know, kind of thought like, oh,that's the X extra. That's the
(41:51):
extracurricular, you know,that's the, you know, it's
really the math and the scienceand the physics and the
calculus. Like, to me, I don'tknow there was always something
like, no pain, no gain. Like, ifit isn't painful, it's we're
not. This is just pointlessthen. But you know, the music or
(42:12):
art, you know, or, you know,being outside, I just lately
have really loved theconversations about how
important that is, and just likethat is resistance, yeah, me,
that is just that has been ahuge like, Aha for me, that rest
(42:37):
is resistance, that art isresistance, you know, like that
is for me, helping to create thedifference in the world that I
would want to see by tellingstories and by sharing stories
and by creating, you know,comics, music, art books. Yeah,
(42:59):
so opposite of what I grew upthinking.
Erica D'Eramo (43:03):
I think you mentioned it. I think I first
came across Tricia Hersey on theGlenn and Doyle podcast. So
there's an episode about, like,ditching grind culture, I think
is maybe the title, somethinglike that, that where she
introduced this concept of restas resistance. And there's a
book out there I'm hoping toread soon called pleasure
activism, and just this ideathat finding lately, you know,
(43:27):
people are like, how are youdoing? How are you doing it?
Just there's so much chaos inthe world and so much in the
news, and so much to be scaredabout, or frustrated about, or
disappointed or fearful, and itcan be anxiety inducing, but I
really feel like finding thepockets of joy that's like my my
commitment right now is I amdetermined to find pockets of
(43:49):
joy, not just like calmness orokay, but actual laugh out loud
or tears of joy, or whateverthat looks like, like. I am
determined I'm going to findthat even if it's just brief or
fleeting or unscheduled orwhatever, like, that's the thing
I'm committed to right now, so.
Molly Booker (44:09):
And I love that I my wife, and I have had so many,
like, really hilarious momentsof like, I am really working at,
like, rest and relax. And, youknow, it's interesting. I'll be
sitting on the couch watchingTV, and I'm like, I am so tense
(44:29):
in my body, like, I am holdingtight, like all my muscles, and
in my mind, I'm like, Okay, letthat go. Like, let it go, relax.
And I like, have this wholemantra to, like, relax the
muscles, and then, or relax, andthen four minutes later, I'm
like, Oh my gosh, I'm doing itagain, you know, of just holding
(44:51):
so tight, or really holding inmy jaw, you know, like, so
tight. And, you know, it's tome, it's funny. It's like, now
I'm really effort being atrelaxing.
Erica D'Eramo (45:02):
Gold star, 10 out of 10, eight plus on relaxing.
Yeah, my husband taught me torelax, so I admit I needed a
partner.
Molly Booker (45:11):
Yes, like, yeah.
It doesn't just come natural ofto me, of you know. And what's
interesting is that I find whenI am feeling scared, or I'm
feeling anxious or I'm feelinguncomfortable, my go to is
control. Like I want to startcleaning house, I want to do
laundry, I want to do thedishes, you know, and I want to
tell my kid what to do, youknow? I find like I get really
(45:37):
like. I want to grab control.
And that energy, I'm starting tonotice, like, oh, that control
energy. It's not about me beingright or being smarter than my
kid or that is about me feelingdysregulated and me feeling
(45:58):
scared. And when I'm in thatspace, I want to control things.
And so it's been interesting.
You know, we just had springbreak, and I'm like, I'm doing
it, oh my gosh, I'm doing it inthe airport. I am, like,
controlling everybody andeverything. Okay, take a breath.
Erica D'Eramo (46:15):
Love an itinerary.
Molly Booker (46:16):
I'm anxious bringing our mixed race, queer,
non binary kid through security,it makes me anxious. Yeah, and
how I show up that way when Iget anxious, it's just been
really interesting to notice andto respond in a different way of
(46:36):
like telling my kid, this makesme nervous. You know, when they
ask you your name and it, youknow, and then they're like,
wait, what? Because the namedoesn't, you know, always align
with what you would assume theirgender to be. And just by having
some of those conversations andtalking it out, but it it has
been so profoundly helpful in mymarriage to realize that I want
(47:01):
to get controlling when I amfeeling wonky and anxious and
scared. And I mean, man, thatled to some really tough
conversations and fights with mywife, but to see now that we
both can use that language oflike, Oh, I'm, I'm feeling
scared in this moment. I'm, I'mfeeling really dysregulated, and
(47:22):
I'm now wanting to tell youexactly how to load the
dishwasher like that. There's aspecific way that that would go.
Erica D'Eramo (47:31):
Feeling a little called out right now, little my
my husband's gonna edit thispodcast, and I think gonna maybe
mention that. I mean, physicsjust says you have to do it a
certain way. No, I'm justkidding. But you know what? So
(47:54):
what if we gotta run it twice,right? Like it's it'll be okay.
He's actually very good atloading the dishwasher,
something that maybe it's betterif I just don't get involved at
all. But on that note, so whatwould your what for folks who
are listening before we talkabout how they can find you like
what are, what would your keykernels of wisdom be that you
(48:16):
want listeners to walk awaytoday from our conversation
with?
Molly Booker (48:22):
I loved the song, U2 song. I still haven't found
what I'm looking for, and I justfelt like that was my life
anthem, and I felt over and seenby just that angsty way that you
can sing, like I still I havedone all the things, and I still
haven't found it. And I'd sayanybody that that resonates with
(48:47):
I would like to suggest thatmaybe that thing you're looking
for is you, and for me in mylife, when I have felt the
loneliness, the most lonely, thethe most down on myself and the
most like unworthy is when Ireally distance myself from
myself. I've been trying toplease other people, or thinking
(49:11):
other people had a better way ofdoing it than I did, or trying
to contort myself into the waythat other people wanted me to
be. And you know, as I've found,really getting to know myself
and expressing myself, even ifit doesn't fit the status quo,
has really helped me to reallylove myself, to find beauty in
(49:38):
myself, and that has justrippled into, you know, the
relationship I have with my dad,or the relationship I have with
my mom, the relationship I havewith my friends, with my kid,
with my wife, it has changedeverything for me. And so I've
always thought that I could findthat thing out there somewhere,
(49:59):
and I. My nugget is just try it.
I mean, you, hey, you can alwayscome back to trying to find it
out there anytime that's notgoing anywhere. But maybe just
try on going inward a littlebit. And what does doing? Just
seeking that joy, just doingsomething today, because I love
it, and that's the only reason.
(50:23):
And you know, to me, that'sreally shifted everything and
been so incredibly helpful.
Erica D'Eramo (50:31):
Yeah, and folks can read more about that journey
right in your book. So where canthey find where can they find
you? What's, what's the bestplace to look
Molly Booker (50:43):
Yeah, the best place is mollybooker.com I am,
you know, really reevaluatingwhere I am showing up on the
internet these days and same.
Yeah, so let go of Facebook andInstagram. Was harder than I
thought I was going to be bluesky and sub stack, I'm loving,
(51:03):
but all of those links are atMolly booker.com and I would
love to be more in theconversation so you can shoot me
a message on the website or onsub stack. I'd love to, you
know, hear from you, and I justso think all of our stories are
so important, and love being inthe conversation. So I thank you
(51:26):
for this conversation. It's fun.
And I mean, I could just keepgoing on and on and on, but
yeah, I appreciate it.
Erica D'Eramo (51:36):
Yeah, and your book, where can folks find your
book Magic in the Mess?
Molly Booker (51:41):
Really, anywhere books are sold, the links are on
my website to find it. It's onAmazon, Barnes and Noble, but I
just want to give a plug foryour local bookstore, you know.
Erica D'Eramo (51:52):
Yeah, absolutely!
Molly Booker (51:54):
And ask them to order a copy of Magic in the
Mess for you,
Erica D'Eramo (51:59):
and I'll check and see if it's on bookshop.com
but that would be ourbookshop.org. Is another one
where you can select whichbookstore you want to support.
So when I order, that's my go tothese days, instead of the big
ones.But and I select my localbookstore to get my get the
proceeds from my purchases.
So...
Molly Booker (52:20):
Let's do it.
What's a shout out to your localbookstore.
Erica D'Eramo (52:24):
Mockingbird bookstore in Bath is my favorite
local bookstore. So that's,that's where my proceeds go.
Whether it's I use libro FMthese days for audiobooks, and I
use bookshop.org for eitherdigital books, because they have
a digital book platform now orfor physical books, unless I
just wander around my lovelylocal bookstore and grab one off
(52:48):
the shelf. So...
Molly Booker (52:49):
I'm gonna give a shout out to two
Bookstore in Pittsburgh.
Erica D'Eramo (52:54):
Nice.
Molly Booker (52:54):
Wow. You have to go like that is a must, a must
if you're ever in Pittsburgh,stay gold and in Edwards,
Colorado, The Bookworm.
Erica D'Eramo (53:05):
Oh, cool.
Molly Booker (53:06):
Two places that just is, like it just feels good
to be in there. Yeah, you know,
Erica D'Eramo (53:12):
I love being surrounded by books. Yeah, it's
an energy so awesome. Well,thank you so much, Molly for
joining us. We'll include linksin the show notes. And for
anyone listening that would liketo read a summary of this, you
can find that on our website, ontwopiersconsulting.com along
with a link to the transcript ifyou prefer to read this instead
(53:34):
of listen to it. So thanks forjoining us for such a wide
ranging, really vulnerableconversation. I appreciate it,
Molly.
Molly Booker (53:42):
Thank you, all my pleasure. For sure.
Erica D'Eramo (53:45):
Awesome, and for our listeners, we will see you
next episode. Thanks forlistening.
Hello and welcome to the Two Piers podcast. I'm
your host, Erica D'Eramo, andtoday we have Molly Booker
joining us. So Molly is anauthor, songwriter and advocate
for self discovery andauthenticity. Her book, Magic in
the Mess, explores the beautyfound in life's chaos, while her
song, no more boxes, recorded innationals, legendary black bird
studio, challenges societalexpectations around identity,
(00:28):
passionate about storytelling,personal growth and meaningful
connection, she strives toinspire others to embrace their
truth, slow down and recognizethe internal nudges that guide
them. I can't wait to talk toMolly today about the magic in
the mess. Thanks for joining usfor this episode of the Two
Piers Podcast.
(00:57):
Hey Molly, thanks for being onthe podcast with us.
Molly Booker (01:00):
Oh my gosh, thank you for having me. I was just
looking ahead of what we'regoing to talk about today. And
I'm like, I'm I'm ready. I'mlike, Yeah, let's go.
Erica D'Eramo (01:12):
Awesome. Yeah. I mean, it's been great getting to
meet you and hear about yourjourney a bit, and and the magic
in the mess, which is somethingI think I'm I'm really embracing
in this phase of life so, verytimely, very timely.
Molly Booker (01:27):
Yeah, I love it. I just the way that life works,
right? The one thing that Iultimately wanted to avoid was
mess and, yeah, it took a whileto really not just like be
willing to even dabble in themess, but to then prefer to
(01:48):
spend my time there. So
Erica D'Eramo (01:50):
Yeah, for sure.
Yeah. So, I mean, there's somany directions we could take it
in, but let's start first withwhat's your What was your
journey like? Who, what took youto the Molly that we see today?
Molly Booker (02:07):
Yeah, I love that.
It's like, okay, where do I wantto start this one today? But I
think just going with where wewere starting is that I really
defined myself by success andthe opposite of mess. So I like
things perfect. My spaces werevery neat and organized. I am
(02:28):
one of those people that alwaysneeds to, like, take everything
out of the car that came in withit that day, french fries and
stuff like, no no. Just likedeverything really handled. I
liked all the boxes checked, andlived my life that way. And I
(02:48):
thought that this really made mesuccessful. I mean, that was a
great way to achieve threemaster's degrees to me, that
felt very successful to always,you know, work right up to the
top of whatever business ororganization I was in. And so I
thought, like, Okay, I'mcrushing life here. I've got it
(03:11):
handled. I've got my retirementaccounts, and I have my home
and, you know, I'm doing thethings and the stuff. And the
thing for me is I I was neverhappy, and I thought maybe that
was just like a character defector something, like, I am missing
the happiness gene or something,because the more that I'm
(03:34):
achieving, society is telling methat I should be ecstatic by
now, and I'm not. I have plentyof money, I have great friends.
What is going on? And it had mein my life, really take a look
at what does success mean to me?
And I thought it meant having itall handled, having it all
(03:56):
together, it looks good, andachieving and that just wasn't
working for me. And so it reallytook something for me to really
just own that to myself, thisdefinition of success isn't
working anymore, not evenanymore. It never really worked
for me, but to be willing tojust say, I don't know, I don't
(04:20):
know what this is going to looklike, and to reinvent it. And
I'd say, through this journey ofwriting this book, and, you
know, the last five years or so,I'd say, you know, my definition
of success has really morphedinto knowing myself. And what's
fascinating to me is I reallythought I knew myself. I mean,
(04:41):
in my late 40s, like, come on, II know what I like, I know what
I don't like. And turns out, Ididn't know myself at all. And I
had really designed myself to bethis organized, successful
person, and that kept me really.
Really stuck in boxes that werenot authentic, and it kept me
(05:01):
from even knowing that myselfand huge things like my
sexuality. Are you kidding me?
How did I not know that I wasgay, like everybody else is
like, Molly, duh. But I'm like,I didn't see it. I just thought,
(05:23):
Man, I really struggle to be inrelationship. I've been divorced
twice. Why is this so hard forme? And again, I made that
something wrong about me, like Imust just really suck at
relationships. There must besomething unlovable about me.
And come to find out, no, I I'mgay. So that is why this was not
(05:45):
working. But I think in thisjourney, it's had me really come
home to myself in some reallytender and honest ways to say,
Oh, wow, I was so wrong aboutmyself. This, this wasn't a
defect about myself. This was Ijust didn't know myself.
Erica D'Eramo (06:06):
Yeah, what brought it? Like, what brought
about the awareness? What wasthe pivotal moment? Or was it
gradual? Like, how did you kindof reach this realization?
Molly Booker (06:19):
Yeah, I think it was both, don't you love it when
Yeah, was it this or this? Andthe person's like, yes.
Erica D'Eramo (06:26):
Actually, as a coach, I do because shame on me
for asking a closed endedquestion there. So yes, what was
it?
Molly Booker (06:34):
I you know, again, it's just been quite a journey.
And for me, it really, I'd say,started when I was 35 I hit
suicidal crisis, and I'm like,this way of living my life is
just not working. I don't wantto do it. I'm not happy, I, I,
you know, not just not happy,but I am in so much suffering.
(06:56):
I, if this is what life is, Iwould just rather not do it. And
so from that point on, it'sreally been a journey about, how
can I want to wake up in themorning? That's really all I was
after. If I could just want towake up in the morning, that
would be great. And so here goesthis journey. And it ended up,
you know, getting a master's inspiritual psychology, and that
(07:19):
really opening up for, you know,a spiritual conversation. And
then did a lot of work insuicide prevention, and then
that kind of the journey led toministry. And so I went to
seminary school, and I thought Iwas going to learn all the
answers in seminary, like, Okay,finally I'm going to get the
Bible unlocked. Like, you'rejust gonna tell me what it all
(07:41):
means, and then I'll be able totell my congregation what it
means. This is great, and that'snot at all what seminary was
about. Spirit awesome led me tothe most progressive seminary
school. It's just like, hey,this is the one in Denver, and
this is the ones close. But howfitting that I went to seminary
(08:03):
that was talking a lot about ourlocation and our privilege and
our talking about race andgender and identity and
sexuality, and kept thinkinglike, what does this have to do
with religion? Like, it cracksme up that that thought occurred
to me, like, what does sexualityand gender and identity and race
(08:25):
have to do with religion? Likeit, it's funny to me, like, how
much I didn't know, but leaninginto there, I think, started to
open the doors, to really lookat, what do I believe, and who
am I, and what are the valuesthat I hold? And I think that
seminary opened the space. Itcreated a space to talk about
(08:49):
it, and for me to say, Wow, somethings that I really thought I
knew for sure. I'm not surethat. I'm not sure that I really
believe that to be true, or I'mnot sure that that really makes
as much sense as I thought itdid. So there was a lot of
undoing in seminary, a lot ofdeconstruction in seminary, and
(09:12):
a lot of questions of what, whatdo I want my life to be about?
And do I really think that mywhite males are like the
pinnacle of success, like, maybethat's not quite what I thought
it was. And so that door I thinkwas opening to ask myself some
(09:33):
deep questions. And then Istarted, you know, having
questions about race and genderexpression and identity and
sexuality, and you know, all interms of like, well, this is
really good information for mycongregation. This is going to
be great and importantconversations for the kids in
the congregation, like, and alsofor myself and. So one of my
(10:01):
good friends, not that longafter, came and said, You know,
I think I'm your person. And Iwas like, you know, like Grey's
Anatomy, like Meredith andChristina, like were BFFs. And
she was like, No, not quite likethat. Like, I am in love with
you. And I was like, Oh, um, oh,wow. And I think because of that
(10:28):
space that had opened up throughseminary, I was able to look at
it and say, Oh, wow. Okay, youknow that this doesn't fit in
the mental picture and theconstructs that I had for
myself, but trusting my heart,it feels so right. And so then
it was like, you know, findingmy person and falling in love
(10:51):
kind of came first. And then waslike, Oh, I guess I'm coming out
at this time too. And that's alot of the mess of it, you know,
of wow, maybe I don't knowmyself as well as I thought I
did. Maybe I don't I'm not asclear that my beliefs are as
locked in as I thought that theywere. Maybe there's a lot that I
(11:11):
don't know, and I think it wasthe willingness to step into the
messiness of the unknowing ofI'm not sure, and allowing that
space for something different?
Erica D'Eramo (11:24):
Yeah, I have so many thoughts. I have so many,
so many different directions Icould take it. One would be like
some, I don't know, probablyinappropriate joke about how we
think it's like drag queen storytime, but actually, it's the
church that's opening people'seyes to their queerness. But I
(11:45):
think that, oh, there's athere's a whole thread there,
but I'll leave that for now.
There's a piece. There's a pieceinstead, that seems like another
third rail topic around, it'snot politics, but there's kind
of a, there's a theory aroundgovernments, right? And this
(12:07):
what they call the J curve, andit's something, I'm not going to
do it justice here, but that, ifyou just keep you kind of two
sides of the spectrum where youhave quote, unquote stability.
And on one side of the spectrum,it's like very tight control,
and you have to retain supertight autocratic control to
(12:32):
maintain the stability. And ifyou budge from that at all, it
kind of plummets down that curvevery, very quickly, and so the
stakes are very high, but on theother side of the curve, it's
like messier, more open, butit's much more that stable
system is much more stable. Andsometimes as you, as you're
talking through that just makingme think about this relationship
(12:55):
that maybe I had with theconcept of control and fitting
into these boxes and like I willbe safe here, and yet it needs
to stay so tightly in that box,like the it's such a narrow
realm to operate in, because ifyou stray off of that at all, it
starts to feel very unstable,versus this more like messy,
(13:18):
organic way of finding whattruly life is and and straying
off the narrow path to discoverwhat it truly is that, in the
end, is a much more stable,sustainable system. But like,
there's that safety, there's aperceived safety, I think for
(13:40):
whether it's a individual humanor a government system, there's
a perceived safety of havingvery rigid, structured controls
and and maintaining that tightlywith an iron fist, and it's not
always sustainable or stable orthe best use of human life.
Molly Booker (14:02):
Yeah, I really relate to what you're saying,
and that is how I thought I wasgoing to achieve stability and
Erica D'Eramo (14:06):
I think it was a few months ago we had an episode
safety. I think safety was whatI was really, really after
around complex relationshipswith food. And the reason I
without realizing it. But Ithink leading into this idea of
perfectionism, like, if I canjust keep everything you know,
like, that is the ultimate ofcontrol, like I want it to be
reached out to Carrie Baker wasthe name of the licensed
(14:30):
perfect, and it is just likeholding your breath kind of and
and really had a lot of controlon myself, like I was really
clinical social worker that wehad on to take talk about that.
controlled what I ate, when Iexercised, my morning routine,
my spiritual practice was sostrict. I think it's funny now,
And the reason I had reached outto her about this was because I
but I was super strict withmyself, and one of. To hold it
(14:54):
all in, so that you know, it'slike, well, this is going to
feel like I do a lot of work. Ido a lot of work with people
keep my world safe, and this isgoing to keep my world
predictable, and to me, that isgoing to make it easier to
operate. But it was like, kindof like trying to hold a beach
across the gender spectrum,actually, but many of the women
ball underwater, like that thingis trying to tip every which
(15:18):
away, every millisecond it isexhausting, trying to, like,
I work with, especially womenworking in male dominated
keep it all together. And I wasterrified, like, terrified of
that getting out of control. Andthe second it felt that way, I
industries, tend to be highachievers, right? Like very
would just, like, double down,like, okay, you know, like, I'm,
(15:39):
I'm, I'm, you know, gonna eat Ilike, I'll do the whole 30, you
achievement oriented, and thathas served them very well, but
know, except I'm gonna do thatfor 100 days. I'll do the whole
100, you know. Like, really getstrict with myself. And I just
there is a very high correlationbetween that high achievement,
kept feeling like, the stricterI am, and the more discipline
(15:59):
and the more willpower, like,the more anxious I am. Like, I'm
control, orderly, havingpredictability, you know, being
anxious and stressed out all thetime. But by the definition like
I should be, this should begreat, because I am really
able to keep things tightlypackaged and complicated
structured, and so I love totake on a word of the year, and
I love to take on a word of theyear that makes me super
(16:22):
relationships with food andbody, because it's one, one of
uncomfortable. And so a fewyears ago, I took on Messi and
like, I could hardly talk aboutit at the beginning of like, but
the many outlets for it. But Ithink it shows up, and there's a
I'm going to lean in, because Ifeel like it's really got a grip
on me right now. And what I wasfinding is is that the more like
(16:44):
high correlation. So it'sinteresting that you brought up
when I did let the beach ball upa little bit, like, yes, it
popped up in ways that I didn'tplan and I didn't expect. But it
food a lot, because I think,like, you know, I have a history
wasn't just like, oh, I canhandle the mess, or I can handle
the unpredictable things. It'slike, wouldn't you know it, the
(17:04):
things that had been eluding mewere in that messiness, like all
of disordered eating. I don'treally like that word. I have a
of a sudden, I was finding me,like more of my authentic
expression. I was finding reallydeep love and connection and the
history with definitely somesome food challenges, and it
things that I had always beenlooking for thinking I would
(17:25):
find it the other way ofbelonging, acceptance, love,
showed up in different ways inmy life, but I see it as so tied
patience. I never really didfind it in that model, but when
I just allowed more got in thatspace of like, I don't know,
into that need for control thatI had previously around, like,
beach balls taken off in a weirddirection right now, and it
looked like really life alteringthings of my changing my
(17:48):
sexuality and getting divorcedand coming out and leaving the
if I can just have everythingyou mentioned perfectionism,
church. I was a pastor in achurch, and left that lifelong
career and moved, you know,these major, major life
right? Like we we do encouragethat a lot, especially within
transitions, which, you know, Ihad no, like, opposite of
control all of a sudden, andit's like, wow, suddenly I'm
(18:10):
little girls as kids, right? Getthe straight A's. Behave in
really enjoying the experienceof my life, yeah, which is funny
in the places that I had sodreaded, like, really, really
class. Have everything be niceand neat and tidy. Don't cause
kept at bay.
Molly Booker (18:23):
Yeah, so many things. And like, Yes, I just, I
disruptions. And yet, I. Thereare infinite ways to be
imperfect, and there is only oneway to be perfect, right? Like
(18:54):
there's one any little scratchor flaw or anything, it's not
perfect. And so in coaching, wetalk a lot about, like,
(19:14):
achievement goals versusavoidance goals. And when you're
avoiding imperfection, I mean,there's just such a narrow, such
(19:36):
a low probability right of justof actually having that, versus
focusing on what it is, what isit that you do want to foster
(19:59):
and achieve in life? And you'regonna have a lot of these, like
bumps and bruises and mistakesand learnings and all the
(20:20):
messiness of it along the way.
But, oh, that was a lot of justall over the place and non
linear thinking right there. Soas I say that, what's, what's
(20:42):
coming to mind for you?
really, really relate to that.
And I think it, it has methinking back to kind of where
we started this conversation,and what did success mean to me
growing up and there, I mean, itwas really clear what success
(21:07):
was. Success was, you know, I'vesaid it and I'll say it again.
You know, it really was white,cis, heterosexual male. Was
really like the top of success,and it looked very athletic,
strong, skinny, rich, educatedlike those are the things. Those
(21:30):
are the measures of success.
Well, what do I do? As you know,the only girl in our family to
be successful. And for me, Ireally denied my my sexuality. I
did well. I denied my gender aswell, like I denied all my
(21:53):
femininity. You know, it's justlike I just want to be as male
as I can get, because that is,to me, what I'm showing is
successful. And so, you know,here's this strict way that I'm
going to find success in theworld, and I'm going to really,
you know, really police myself alot with what I do, to work, to
(22:20):
effort to eat, you know, allthese things with such so strict
on all of those things. And Ithink that it's, it's been
fascinating how much there isstill tied up in in that idea.
But as I've come out and reallyseen like that, that isn't the
(22:42):
model that works for me, thatisn't the model that I want my
life to be about. That is notthe model that I want to teach
my kid either, that it is youknow about authenticity and
really honoring who I am andhonoring the authenticity of who
each individual is. And man,have I had to confront myself
(23:05):
over and over and over and justhow much judgment I've had
around, not only my own weightand my belly and my hips, but,
you know, I have judged 1000s ofpeople, you know, in the
airport, you know, it's just aslike, Oh my gosh. Am I this
human that is just like,immediately putting people in
boxes based on what they looklike or their weight? Yeah, I
(23:28):
did that for a long time. It'shard to it's hard to own that.
But lately, spending more timewith, you know, going to yoga
classes with all body shapes andlike how how impactful that has
been, and how helpful that hasbeen, versus going, you know, to
(23:50):
a yoga of, you know, who canpretzel themselves the longest
and the hardest in thinnest,little teeny way, You know. And
now I'm seeing these like, largebodies, like, and just the
beauty in them and the power inthem is really had me do a lot
of work on my own body image.
And, you know, I'm heavier thanI've ever been in my life. And
(24:13):
like, and I feel like I, I'm, Iwant to be that way right now to
really look at, you know, whatdoes my body want to do, and how
am I defining beauty andattraction and all of these
things, and it's so interestingto me, like I just took for
granted What these definitionswere. You know, what does
(24:38):
attraction mean? You know? Andto me, I thought that meant
blonde, skinny lipstick, tight,tight clothes, high heels. That
just does not work for me. Sorather than thinking, Hmm,
there's something wrong withthis, dei. Definition of
attraction, because that doesn'tfit me. It's like, well, I
(25:01):
there's something wrong with me,and I've done that everywhere in
my life. If something isn'tworking, like, I'm the problem,
rather than saying, like, wait asecond, I need to slow down and
take a look at this definitionof what what does strength mean?
What does beauty mean? What doesauthenticity mean? What does
success mean? What doeshappiness mean? What does rest
(25:23):
mean, you know, and just thesehuge areas of like weight and
efforting and approving and, youknow, versus just being and
existing, and, yeah, my lifelooks completely different than
it did in my 20s. Like it's justnot at all what I thought it
(25:45):
was.
Erica D'Eramo (25:49):
I talked about this, like aha moment on the
podcast before, so listenersmight remember it, but I had
this moment. Well, Ispecifically remember standing
offshore with someone who cameout there to do some
assessments, and they he wasvery well thought, like well,
(26:13):
very well respected, I think,because he was very good at what
he did, but kind of struck fearin everybody's hearts and I had
never met him, but I'd heard,you know, this guy's really,
really tough, and he's justgonna come and cause us all a
bunch of headache with all thesefindings. And he pulled me into
a conference room. He was like,Hey, you have a minute? I want
to talk to you. And I was like,oh no, oh no. What's gonna
(26:35):
happen? And he pulled me aside,and he was like, Uh, these guys
are trying to make your lifehell. And I was like, what? And
he said, I know it. I can seeit. I hear about it. I just want
you to know I've got your back,but don't let them win. And I
was like, it was such a complexset of emotions that I had,
(26:56):
because on the one hand, I wasfelt so affirmed that he could
see it. But on the other hand, Ithought, but my life is so
short, like, I don't want tospend it playing a game like
this and, and I realized that,like the game, you know, you go
to a carnival and you want to goplay the whatever, get the the
ball in the in the bottle thing,or get the like, the hoop around
(27:20):
the bottle, right? And you spendall this money, and you're so
fixated on try after try, andyou just want that, like, teddy
bear that's hanging right thereand and it'll, this is the game
that's been set up, and you'regonna beat it. But, like, the
teddy bear only means somethingbecause they said it meant
something. You could go buy theteddy bear online, for, I don't
(27:43):
know, $1.50 it was probably madeusing, you know, enslaved labor
that's underpaid and not, notethical. And then you gave the
house all your money, right? Youspent all your and you put your
value as a human or as somebodywho can throw rings around
bottles. You delegated that tothem, you abscon, you know, like
(28:07):
you just handed that over tosomebody else to determine. And
I realized, like the game isrigged, they benefit from me
buying into it. And ultimately,I don't need the stupid teddy
bear or the title, right? Like,in this case, it was the title.
I don't need that you tricked meinto playing this game and
believing in this game, becauseyou benefit from it the longer
(28:29):
I'm bought in. Ultimately, if Iat the end of my life, I get to
say, Oh, see those guys outthere that I don't even like,
agree with or have shared valueswith or care about I showed them
versus, wow. I lived a life,doing what I wanted to do,
loving who I wanted to love,spending my time the way I
wanted to spend it, impactingthe people I wanted to impact.
(28:51):
Like, which of those two feelsright? You know, like it was
just this aha moment of, ohshoot, I'm playing somebody
else's game. I'm gonna take myball and go home.
Molly Booker (29:01):
Oh my gosh. I love that metaphor. And now metaphor
for life, so much of just thelike, arbitrary nature of like,
okay, you're gonna take thisrandom ring and put it around
this random bottle in the exactway that I tell you to, and then
(29:23):
I'm gonna give you this randomarbitrary thing, you know, and
just like how vested I was inthat game, like so vested, and
how much I made, who I was as Aperson, my value, my worth, so
dependent on that. It brings up,you know, gosh, it just brings
(29:46):
up so much emotion now of howhard I was on myself that I
happened to really suck atputting that ring around that
bottle and thinking like my wifedoesn't have value because I
can. To do this, one thing thatwe're calling is like a winner,
and you know just how difficultit has been to to make the
(30:13):
decision, like, I'm not going toplay that game anymore. Like it
has been so difficult to ownthat to myself and to, like,
really have some forgiveness formyself for how, how I showed up
playing that game, and how Itreated myself playing that
game. And I think that, youknow, one thing that I spend a
(30:38):
lot of time talking to my wifeabout and, you know, I think my
wife and my kid are really thegreatest teachers for me on this
of how I, you know, how I amvaluing and spending my time.
You know, I have had this deepseated thing, like, I need to
effort in order to, like, haveroom to exist. I need to learn,
(31:02):
you know? And, yep, that'llhard. It has been for me to play
the guitar or to practicedrawing cartooning, or to
venture into songwriting or togo for a walk, you know, it's
like I'm wasting my time, or I'mnot, you know, emailing, I'm not
(31:22):
producing, and, man, like, wow,that has been difficult to, you
know, it's kind of like, Wow. Igot so trapped in this game that
is really, really hard to gowalk around the rest of the
Carnival not thinking about thatdang bottle, you know? It's
(31:43):
like, Yeah, can't let it go. Butit is. It has been a practice of
like, okay, what? What would Ilove to do today? You know? And
it, it's hit all those nervesfor me, of like, I feel like I'm
being frivolous. I feel like I'mbeing lazy. I feel like I'm, you
(32:05):
know, not productive. But wow,what? How I've showed up as a
human to my family, my friends,living my life that way of
playing guitar and writing somesongs and talking to people and
cartooning and going to a comicbook store, like, how is that
(32:28):
going to do anything foranybody? And it's fascinating,
you know, that has moved theneedle more of the things that
really, really matter to me,which is authenticity and just
sharing my authentic life, Ithink, has unconsciously given
other people permission to dothe same, and that is what I
believe in, more than anything.
So it's like this, there couldbe nothing greater for me to do
(32:52):
than to authentically Expressand live my life. And I still
struggle because I'm like, canit be this good? You know, like,
right? Like, it's supposed to bepainful. Well, somebody said
that, but I don't think so.
Erica D'Eramo (33:14):
Or we're waiting for the other shoe to drop,
right? We're waiting for it'slike, all fall apart. I Yeah. I
mean, these are neural pathwaysthat have been developed over
decades, right? I agree. It'snot like I woke up that day and
I thought, Oh, that's it like,whatever, the scales have fallen
from my eyes, and now I seeclearly and it's all
(33:35):
illuminated. It's a practice,and I think especially, I still
see the control tendencies inmyself when I'm stressed or when
there's a values piece that'slike pinging for me that I think
there's a value under threat,and so I kind of revert to that
(33:55):
earlier version of my brain thatneeds that high level of
control. And I talk to clientsall the time who are like, Oh,
my boss needs this control, orthey need the control and like
that. Need for control is sodeep seated and takes so much
time. And the and the narrativesright around productivity and
(34:19):
worthiness, they take so muchtime to unpack, often with the
help of, like, a therapist and acoach, not doing therapy, but
like, focusing on what it is youdo on a manifest. But these
things self exploration. Andit's funny, you this is kind of
backtracking, but you mentionedthe yoga thing. And right before
(34:43):
you had mentioned yoga, and wewere talking about sort of
control and perfection, I wasremembering this one yoga class
I had where, and this was when Iwas still very like, very rigid
and controlled. So when yogaclass I had where the instructor
said they told us to, you know,class. So not over, but we were
gonna go into fast enough, like,the final resting pose and and
(35:05):
everybody was like, fidgeting,trying to get perfect on their
mat. And he was like, you guysdon't need to be perfect on the
mat. Like, what if you had anankle or, like, a heel just off
the mat a little, you'll beokay, right? And this just aha
moment of, I don't need to beperfectly aligned on my mat
during this final resting posewhere my eyes are closed and I'm
like, meditating, wow. Andclearly everybody in the room
(35:28):
was like feeling like this, thateven in yoga, which is about
like embracing where you're atand being present, we all need a
little reminder that we'll beokay if, like, our heel is not
perfectly on the mat. Yeah, thatmust have been over a decade
ago. I still remember thatmoment of, like, lying on my
mat, being like, whoa. I don'tneed. I don't need. I don't need
(35:50):
that.
Molly Booker (35:51):
Yeah, there was a time in my 30s when I was, you
know, in the thick of it, youknow, managing some medical
offices and working on mymasters and things like that.
And I decided I wanted to do atriathlon. And so I, you know,
was really going to get in shapeto do really well on this
(36:13):
triathlon. And so I starteddoing yoga three times a day,
morning, noon and nightpractice. And then, you know,
the workouts and all of it, andI was so obsessive and
competitive about yoga go in.
And I really, the whole time wasjudging myself based on, you
know, Can I do it the best? CanI balance the longest? Can I
hold this posture the mostperfectly? And, you know, and
(36:36):
when is this class over, youknow. And it's interesting, that
was my experience of yoga allthose hours that I was on the
mat was, you know, who's better,you know? And it really put me.
There was a big against this,you know, like, if you do
better, I do worse, you know, orif I'm better than you, or
(36:58):
you're worse than me, and comingto Nashville, of seeing just in
a completely differentexperience of yoga, of to see
that it's, it can't, it can be acompletely different experience
of how, like, how does thisposture feel in my body? Can
(37:21):
this be a way for me to comeinto my body? You know, it
doesn't really have anything todo with anybody else in the
room. Hilarious. Like, howdifferent those mindsets were,
or what I thought I was doing onthe matter why I was there, I
think, is really similar to, youknow, how I was living my life
(37:44):
before, very competitive, verymuch, judging, rating, good,
bad, right, wrong. And, youknow, it's interesting what that
experience is like to let go ofthat polarity, you know, of and
judgment. And just say, youknow, I'm really curious. What's
(38:04):
going to show up on my mattoday. You know, I'm curious.
Does this stretch feel likeexpansive or constrictive? Does
this feel good or not so good?
Would I like to hold it longeror not as long? Completely
different kind of conversation.
And I find, like, I am really,really delighted, like, and full
(38:25):
of curiosity and wonder aboutthe conversations that I'm
having, you know, on the mat ofmy life. Yeah, hey, you know of
what does it look like to torest? What does it look like to
enjoy comforts, or to play, or,you know, to create and do art?
(38:51):
And, you know, it's afascinating conversation, and I
don't know, I you know who's tosay, which one's right. I just
really enjoy the second morethan I was enjoying the first
way.
Erica D'Eramo (39:10):
I feel like I'd be remiss if I some of the these
topics are bringing up, like,books that I have really
enjoyed, that I feel like Iprobably recommend a lot. So I'm
going to throw them out therefor anyone listening that it's
like, well, first of all, folksshould check out your book.
Right? Magic in the mess, forsure. So we'll put that. We'll
put that up there. The book.
Rest is resistance by TrishaHersey. Is a really and it, it
(39:32):
kind of explores the connectionbetween really, like, this
productivity mindset. And howextrapolated that is tied to
white supremacy, tied to viewinghumans as resources to be
exploited and ultimately likethe enslavement of humans so
(39:56):
really powerful. But I. Undoingall the narrative around like,
do I deserve? You know, theconcept of deserving rest or
earning rest, and unpacking thatthe book, The Joy of saying no,
was another one that was so eyeopening for me in terms of
people's views of you and howmuch of our lives we spend
(40:16):
trying to avoid pissing otherpeople off. And then the last
one people or disappointing,yeah, disappointing, making them
sad. Yeah, like, but for someexternal, extrinsic, you know,
assessment that's notoriginating internally, that
maybe we've inherited the thatbelief, but not chosen it. And
(40:37):
then the last one was, that wasmore recently, was 4000 weeks.
And I think, you know, we might,we might have talked about 4000
weeks, but it's really aboutlike, if you live to 80, you
have approximately 4000 weeks onthe earth. That one's by Oliver
Berkman. And what are you doingwith that time? You know, are
you living it for other people?
(40:58):
Are you living it for yourself,and just not taking for granted
that we have all this time, thatwe'll figure it out later, that
at the end, we'll get the goldstar.
Molly Booker (41:08):
Yeah, right. You know some of my favorites, and
I've really, really loved theconversations lately that you
know, Glennon Doyle is havingElizabeth Gilbert, Brene Brown,
Martha Beck. And, you know, I'veloved the, you know, Brene
(41:30):
Brown, Gifts of Imperfection andreally looking at, I just went
to a seminar about creativitywith Elizabeth Gilbert and
Martha and just the importanceof art, you know, I always, you
know, kind of thought like, oh,that's the X extra. That's the
(41:51):
extracurricular, you know,that's the, you know, it's
really the math and the scienceand the physics and the
calculus. Like, to me, I don'tknow there was always something
like, no pain, no gain. Like, ifit isn't painful, it's we're
not. This is just pointlessthen. But you know, the music or
(42:12):
art, you know, or, you know,being outside, I just lately
have really loved theconversations about how
important that is, and just likethat is resistance, yeah, me,
that is just that has been ahuge like, Aha for me, that rest
(42:37):
is resistance, that art isresistance, you know, like that
is for me, helping to create thedifference in the world that I
would want to see by tellingstories and by sharing stories
and by creating, you know,comics, music, art books. Yeah,
(42:59):
so opposite of what I grew upthinking.
Erica D'Eramo (43:03):
I think you mentioned it. I think I first
came across Tricia Hersey on theGlenn and Doyle podcast. So
there's an episode about, like,ditching grind culture, I think
is maybe the title, somethinglike that, that where she
introduced this concept of restas resistance. And there's a
book out there I'm hoping toread soon called pleasure
activism, and just this ideathat finding lately, you know,
(43:27):
people are like, how are youdoing? How are you doing it?
Just there's so much chaos inthe world and so much in the
news, and so much to be scaredabout, or frustrated about, or
disappointed or fearful, and itcan be anxiety inducing, but I
really feel like finding thepockets of joy that's like my my
commitment right now is I amdetermined to find pockets of
(43:49):
joy, not just like calmness orokay, but actual laugh out loud
or tears of joy, or whateverthat looks like, like. I am
determined I'm going to findthat even if it's just brief or
fleeting or unscheduled orwhatever, like, that's the thing
I'm committed to right now, so.
Molly Booker (44:09):
And I love that I my wife, and I have had so many,
like, really hilarious momentsof like, I am really working at,
like, rest and relax. And, youknow, it's interesting. I'll be
sitting on the couch watchingTV, and I'm like, I am so tense
(44:29):
in my body, like, I am holdingtight, like all my muscles, and
in my mind, I'm like, Okay, letthat go. Like, let it go, relax.
And I like, have this wholemantra to, like, relax the
muscles, and then, or relax, andthen four minutes later, I'm
like, Oh my gosh, I'm doing itagain, you know, of just holding
(44:51):
so tight, or really holding inmy jaw, you know, like, so
tight. And, you know, it's tome, it's funny. It's like, now
I'm really effort being atrelaxing.
Erica D'Eramo (45:02):
Gold star, 10 out of 10, eight plus on relaxing.
Yeah, my husband taught me torelax, so I admit I needed a
partner.
Molly Booker (45:11):
Yes, like, yeah.
It doesn't just come natural ofto me, of you know. And what's
interesting is that I find whenI am feeling scared, or I'm
feeling anxious or I'm feelinguncomfortable, my go to is
control. Like I want to startcleaning house, I want to do
laundry, I want to do thedishes, you know, and I want to
tell my kid what to do, youknow? I find like I get really
(45:37):
like. I want to grab control.
And that energy, I'm starting tonotice, like, oh, that control
energy. It's not about me beingright or being smarter than my
kid or that is about me feelingdysregulated and me feeling
(45:58):
scared. And when I'm in thatspace, I want to control things.
And so it's been interesting.
You know, we just had springbreak, and I'm like, I'm doing
it, oh my gosh, I'm doing it inthe airport. I am, like,
controlling everybody andeverything. Okay, take a breath.
Erica D'Eramo (46:15):
Love an itinerary.
Molly Booker (46:16):
I'm anxious bringing our mixed race, queer,
non binary kid through security,it makes me anxious. Yeah, and
how I show up that way when Iget anxious, it's just been
really interesting to notice andto respond in a different way of
(46:36):
like telling my kid, this makesme nervous. You know, when they
ask you your name and it, youknow, and then they're like,
wait, what? Because the namedoesn't, you know, always align
with what you would assume theirgender to be. And just by having
some of those conversations andtalking it out, but it it has
been so profoundly helpful in mymarriage to realize that I want
(47:01):
to get controlling when I amfeeling wonky and anxious and
scared. And I mean, man, thatled to some really tough
conversations and fights with mywife, but to see now that we
both can use that language oflike, Oh, I'm, I'm feeling
scared in this moment. I'm, I'mfeeling really dysregulated, and
(47:22):
I'm now wanting to tell youexactly how to load the
dishwasher like that. There's aspecific way that that would go.
Erica D'Eramo (47:31):
Feeling a little called out right now, little my
my husband's gonna edit thispodcast, and I think gonna maybe
mention that. I mean, physicsjust says you have to do it a
certain way. No, I'm justkidding. But you know what? So
(47:54):
what if we gotta run it twice,right? Like it's it'll be okay.
He's actually very good atloading the dishwasher,
something that maybe it's betterif I just don't get involved at
all. But on that note, so whatwould your what for folks who
are listening before we talkabout how they can find you like
what are, what would your keykernels of wisdom be that you
(48:16):
want listeners to walk awaytoday from our conversation
with?
Molly Booker (48:22):
I loved the song, U2 song. I still haven't found
what I'm looking for, and I justfelt like that was my life
anthem, and I felt over and seenby just that angsty way that you
can sing, like I still I havedone all the things, and I still
haven't found it. And I'd sayanybody that that resonates with
(48:47):
I would like to suggest thatmaybe that thing you're looking
for is you, and for me in mylife, when I have felt the
loneliness, the most lonely, thethe most down on myself and the
most like unworthy is when Ireally distance myself from
myself. I've been trying toplease other people, or thinking
(49:11):
other people had a better way ofdoing it than I did, or trying
to contort myself into the waythat other people wanted me to
be. And you know, as I've found,really getting to know myself
and expressing myself, even ifit doesn't fit the status quo,
has really helped me to reallylove myself, to find beauty in
(49:38):
myself, and that has justrippled into, you know, the
relationship I have with my dad,or the relationship I have with
my mom, the relationship I havewith my friends, with my kid,
with my wife, it has changedeverything for me. And so I've
always thought that I could findthat thing out there somewhere,
(49:59):
and I. My nugget is just try it.
I mean, you, hey, you can alwayscome back to trying to find it
out there anytime that's notgoing anywhere. But maybe just
try on going inward a littlebit. And what does doing? Just
seeking that joy, just doingsomething today, because I love
it, and that's the only reason.
(50:23):
And you know, to me, that'sreally shifted everything and
been so incredibly helpful.
Erica D'Eramo (50:31):
Yeah, and folks can read more about that journey
right in your book. So where canthey find where can they find
you? What's, what's the bestplace to look
Molly Booker (50:43):
Yeah, the best place is mollybooker.com I am,
you know, really reevaluatingwhere I am showing up on the
internet these days and same.
Yeah, so let go of Facebook andInstagram. Was harder than I
thought I was going to be bluesky and sub stack, I'm loving,
(51:03):
but all of those links are atMolly booker.com and I would
love to be more in theconversation so you can shoot me
a message on the website or onsub stack. I'd love to, you
know, hear from you, and I justso think all of our stories are
so important, and love being inthe conversation. So I thank you
(51:26):
for this conversation. It's fun.
And I mean, I could just keepgoing on and on and on, but
yeah, I appreciate it.
Erica D'Eramo (51:36):
Yeah, and your book, where can folks find your
book Magic in the Mess?
Molly Booker (51:41):
Really, anywhere books are sold, the links are on
my website to find it. It's onAmazon, Barnes and Noble, but I
just want to give a plug foryour local bookstore, you know.
Erica D'Eramo (51:52):
Yeah, absolutely!
Molly Booker (51:54):
And ask them to order a copy of Magic in the
Mess for you,
Erica D'Eramo (51:59):
and I'll check and see if it's on bookshop.com
but that would be ourbookshop.org. Is another one
where you can select whichbookstore you want to support.
So when I order, that's my go tothese days, instead of the big
ones.But and I select my localbookstore to get my get the
proceeds from my purchases.
So...
Molly Booker (52:20):
Let's do it.
What's a shout out to your localbookstore.
Erica D'Eramo (52:24):
Mockingbird bookstore in Bath is my favorite
local bookstore. So that's,that's where my proceeds go.
Whether it's I use libro FMthese days for audiobooks, and I
use bookshop.org for eitherdigital books, because they have
a digital book platform now orfor physical books, unless I
just wander around my lovelylocal bookstore and grab one off
(52:48):
the shelf. So...
Molly Booker (52:49):
I'm gonna give a shout out to two
Bookstore in Pittsburgh.
Erica D'Eramo (52:54):
Nice.
Molly Booker (52:54):
Wow. You have to go like that is a must, a must
if you're ever in Pittsburgh,stay gold and in Edwards,
Colorado, The Bookworm.
Erica D'Eramo (53:05):
Oh, cool.
Molly Booker (53:06):
Two places that just is, like it just feels good
to be in there. Yeah, you know,
Erica D'Eramo (53:12):
I love being surrounded by books. Yeah, it's
an energy so awesome. Well,thank you so much, Molly for
joining us. We'll include linksin the show notes. And for
anyone listening that would liketo read a summary of this, you
can find that on our website, ontwopiersconsulting.com along
with a link to the transcript ifyou prefer to read this instead
(53:34):
of listen to it. So thanks forjoining us for such a wide
ranging, really vulnerableconversation. I appreciate it,
Molly.
Molly Booker (53:42):
Thank you, all my pleasure. For sure.
Erica D'Eramo (53:45):
Awesome, and for our listeners, we will see you
next episode. Thanks forlistening.
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