Into the Unknown: How Adventure Builds Confidence and Creative Power - with Filmmaker Ben Keller - The Two Piers Podcast

Episode Transcript
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Erica D'Eramo (00:05):
Hello and welcome to the Two Piers podcast. I'm
your host, Erica D'Eramo, andtoday we have guest Ben Keller
joining us. Ben is the owner ofKeller Media works a film and
video production company, and hehas over 20 years in the
industry. He started out in themusic industry before shifting
into the visual realm. Ben'shere to talk to us today about

(00:26):
the value that adventure andworld experience can bring to
the professional world.
Ben, thank you so much forjoining us today.

Ben Keller (00:44):
Thank you for having me. I appreciate it.

We have lots of experts join the podcast on
things like organizationaldevelopment and culture and
inclusion. We have not ever hadsomeone who specializes in video
or even like media of any sort.
So this is really special forme.

Ben Keller (01:04):
I'm glad to be here.

So let's, let's start out with just hearing a
little bit about who you are,like, what's Ben's story? What's
your what's your background,what's your story, what how did
you what's your origin story?
How did you become the personthat you are today?

Ben Keller (01:22):
Wow, that's a big question.
I'll try to keep it short.
Essentially, I've always been aperson with an artistic bent or
an artistic mind, and I'vealways I started off in
sculpture when I was younger andand then moved into photo when I

(01:43):
was in college and worked for awhile in the in the photographic
realm and life called and I justsort of went out into the world
and got whatever job I could inorder to support my experiences.
That was at that period of time,the most important aspect of how
I wanted to live my life. Andthen eventually, I sort of came

(02:07):
back around via the musicindustry. So I got involved in
the music industry right out ofcollege. I was in a band, but
more importantly, I did A and Rat a small independent label in
Chicago. I worked for severalsmall independent labels in
Chicago and and started my own.
And after a while, it was timeto leave Chicago, and I came out

(02:27):
east to Maine and but I stillhad the label going, and I was
looking for a way to sort ofgoose sales. And I had always
wanted to be someone who createdmusic videos, I guess, or short
films with music in it, I guess,would be more appropriate. But
the the the entry level was tooexpensive, and it was only when

(02:50):
equipment prices started to comedown that I could even feasibly
think about it. So I startedmaking music videos for the
bands that were on my label, andfrom there, it just sort of took
off. And at the time, I wasprofessionally a travel agent,
so it had nothing to do with artat all, but it did have to do

(03:11):
with adventure. And then I justsort of made the move when the
company I was working at sort ofdecided they weren't going to be
in the travel industry anymore.
They made me redundant, and Iwent off to seek my fortune in
the production world. And therest, as they say, is history.

So already, I'm in and out of my depth in terms
of some of the terminology. Whatis A and R?

Unknown (03:34):
Artists and representation. Artists and
representation, it's the arm ofa label that goes out and finds
new bands and then make surethat they get a good deal with
the label, and that the label issupporting them, and that they
are doing what they need to doto support the label as well.

Got it Okay, so probably we should also probably
have our little glossary ofterms and like, what, what would
you say, like a filmographer is,and what is video production
like? What does that actuallymean? What does it entail?
Because I, I think you are thefirst video production

(04:18):
professional that I've ever met?

Ben Keller (04:20):
Well, you're certainly opening up a whole can
of worms with that question.
Because the popular term rightnow for a lot of folks who
create filmic or video works andput it online is content
creator. And I push back on thatterminology because it makes it
sound like it's trash. That'snot a great way to describe it,
that it's that's expendable ordisposable. That's it. It makes
it sound like it's disposable.

(04:50):
You're just creating somethingto grab someone's attention for
10 seconds, and out the windowit goes. And while I do do that.
That as part of my business,because I understand the need of
it. I don't like that term. Iwould rather call myself a
filmmaker or an artist, or evena videographer, long

(05:13):
videographer, yeah, long beforeI would call myself a content
creator, and it depends on whatarea you like to focus in. Being
in Maine. When I first startedbeing on my own in Maine, a
bunch of people came up to meand said, you know, in Maine,

(05:34):
they have a saying that ifyou're going to be independently
employed, you got to have morethan one string in your bow. And
I kind of took that to heart. SoI know it's a funny saying, but
it's true. It's hard to say Ijust make films. It's easier to
say I make films, I docommercial work, and then I do

(05:54):
social media work too. Sowhatever work there is that
needs to be done that fits thesort of paradigm that we're
trying to create. We'll do it.
So I do make documentary films.
I am soon going to create myfirst narrative film. I'm going

(06:16):
to shoot that next year. I alsodo a lot of social media work,
and I do a lot of commercialwork, as well as doing things
that is not as glamorous, thingslike interdepartmental video
messaging or trainings, onlinetrainings, those kinds of things
that the general public doesn'tactually see. There's still a

(06:39):
very great need for that kind ofstuff, and so we sort of fill
that niche as well. It's not themost glamorous. You're not
flying off to crazy locationsand hanging out with models and
that kind of thing, but you aredoing solid and important work,
and a lot, a lot of that comesfrom our work with nonprofits in
particular.

Yeah. So okay, so I'm gleaning then that this is
more than just like you show upwith a camera, grab the shot and
then walk away.

Ben Keller (07:09):
That generally is event work. And we do do some
event work, but I bowed out ofweddings a long time ago. It
just was not my bag. I want toactually tell stories. I don't
want to just grab, you know, thewhat a great party it was. We do
do it because the demand isgreat and it's there. And we'll
do it, and we'll, we'll developa little story within what we've

(07:32):
captured and and send that offto the client. But generally
speaking, if, if it's just meand a camera, which a lot of
these shoots can be like that.
There's a lot of pre productionthat goes into it so that the
hiccups that will inevitablyoccur with only having one
person on set or on location canbe handled with aplomb.

Yeah, and then what does it look like after
because I'm guessing, similarly,it's not just send them the raw
footage and be done.

Ben Keller (08:06):
No, we actually never send the raw footage to
anyone.
Ever. Ever.

Seems like a good idea.

Ben Keller (08:12):
Yeah. First of all, because my shooting style, or my
filming style, when I'm the onewho's actually running the
camera, I overshoot and a lot oftimes that just confuses people
when they get the raw footage.
Secondly, generally speaking,they're not paying for the raw
footage. That's another wholeprice point if they want it
that's agreed to in thebeginning. And thirdly, it's

(08:34):
huge. It takes up so much filesize, like getting it to them,
especially if they're an out ofstate client is just ridiculous.
I'm in, I'm with a client rightnow that they they need, I know
somewhere in the order of nineto 10 gigs every week uploaded
to them, and it takes 36 hoursfor me to upload it, because
they're in Czechoslovakia, soit, it's a real resource drag so

(08:57):
a lot of people, and this is whyI backed out of weddings,
because a lot of people think itis you just show up with the
camera, take the shot, and thenyou're done, woohoo, and you
send it off. No, that's not thecase. You spend hours at the
edit desk, and that's where alot of the cost of making video
production comes from. Is thepost production time, because

(09:18):
there's voice overs, there'sgraphics, there's the edit,
pulling selects can take forforever. And most importantly,
and probably the biggest sort oftime warp that you'll fall into,
is music, either creating musicfor the piece or finding music.

(09:42):
It is a rabbit hole, and you cango way down it. And sometimes I,
if it's a very tight budget,I'll just go back to the client
and say, hey pick four or fivepieces of music. Here's some
resources. And then we'll gofrom there, because it's it is
overwhelming at times. So ittakes a long time. The actual
production days is probablymaybe a quarter of the entire

(10:08):
process.

I'm asking all these questions about the nitty
gritty of it, because I think itactually does tie to some of our
the theme for this conversationtoday, which is why I, and me
and you, I think, are assertingthat getting out in the world,
getting yourself a little messy,taking the road less traveled,
getting out there foradventures, actually impacts our

(10:34):
ability to do our craft right,like that. It It impacts how we
pull things together, how weview the world, how we see
things so, so, what is it thatyou bring that it's like, you
know, like, what is it thatyou're how, what are you looking
at when you piece these thingstogether, or you're, like,

(10:55):
trying to tell a story?

Unknown (10:57):
What I think is that each individual director,
producer has their own ideas ofhow a piece could, not should,
but could look, and that realmof creativity comes directly

(11:26):
from that person's lifeexperience and and that includes
seeing other people's work, aswell as how they've lived their
lives, the books they've read,the movies they've seen, the
travels they've been on, thepeople They've met, the
conversations they've had, allof those things combined into

(11:46):
that one person will give them aunique look on how to create a
story within the parameters thathave been delivered by the
client. So some folks have amuch sort of narrower view, or

(12:06):
sometimes purposely more narrowview, when they approach a
production, whereas others willwill go out there and just find
the strangest things that havehappened to them and say, well,
wouldn't that be interesting ifI use this or that aspect of
that experience in in producingthis piece for this client or

(12:27):
movie, whatever it is you'redoing. So generally, I think
people who have really beenoutside of their box, and who
are generally a little older,and that's not to say there
aren't some really young,amazing directors out there, for
sure, but people who have moreexperience under their belt and

(12:49):
know how to translate that intosort of their creative output,
those are generally the peoplethat are going to deliver
something that's a little morecaptivating.

Hmm, it's funny I had a client recently come back
to me and say, you know, thankyou so much for like helping
this past year. This has beenone of the hardest years of my
career. Um, things are gettingbetter now, I will say, though,
that the amount of growth I hadin this past year was

(13:25):
incredible, right? Like she, shehad kind of gotten through it.
She was reflecting, and I waslaughing about, you know, I kind
of call it the manure effect,like you sometimes you have to
go through the stuff. You haveto go through these, like wild
experiences, these things youcould never imagine to get that
growth like you can't buildmuscles without taxing them a

(13:47):
little bit, and you can't reallybuild confidence without going
through it or knowing what youknow, knowing what to look for,
knowing what what to avoid. Allof these things are
unfortunately earned through thethe pain and joy of some of the
mishaps and some of the likeblack swan events you would have

(14:07):
never expected. But as you weretalking like it just kind of
evoked that memory for me, ofearning these experiences and
insights through by goingthrough it.

Ben Keller (14:20):
Well, that is, I think, absolutely true. And
corollary to that, imagine beingsomeone who, say, was a director
and it was on set and never hadanything go wrong, and then
something catastrophic goeswrong. On a bigger production,
you pay people to deal with it,but in a small scale, you got to

(14:41):
think on your feet, and you haveto get out and doing it. And if
you haven't ever dealt withadversity or any kind of
catastrophic failure, you're notgoing to know really what to do.
And that doesn't serve you orthe client in any way, shape or
form, and ultimately, does not,uh, help the artistic vision

(15:02):
either.

Yeah, I'm doing a series right now on confidence.
This is something I'm like,really just, it's a special
interest of the moment for me,confidence, maybe because I just
see so so much bad advice outthere about just fake it till
you make it and just, you justgotta believe in yourself,
right? But what we know, whatthe science says is that
confidence comes from usreflecting on evidence. So the

(15:28):
evidence might not be that youdid that exact thing, that you
got through XYZ, weird scenario,but it might be that you faced a
weird scenario in the past, andyou figured it out right. And so
that that is actually what trulybuilds confidence. But there's
no shortcut to do it withouthaving to go through some of the
experiences first.

Ben Keller (15:48):
Yeah, agreed, and it's and it's not just the
experience itself, but also howyou're managing yourself in the
experience. And that issomething that really only comes
with experience. I think somepeople naturally are very good
at it, but a majority, I thinkof us, are not. And so having

(16:14):
these things happen, learninghow to deal with the situation,
but also learning how to copeinternally with what's going on
is super, super important.

Yeah, yeah, in the coaching world, we like to
call that kind of selfmanagement, and definitely like
growth mindset comes into someof this too, that the
orientation is really on theexperience and the trajectory,
rather than some binary likesuccess or failure. But there's
some fascinating research rightnow on how orientation, and in

(16:49):
terms of like, how you orientaround the problem directly
impacts performance. And somesome terminology around, like,
psychological capital and lotsof really cool, interesting
stuff out there. But again, it'saround that, like, building
those muscles right over time,building the muscles of, okay,

(17:12):
well, this is new, but we'regonna figure it out.

Ben Keller (17:17):
Rght? But even getting there...

Yeah

Ben Keller (17:19):
You know, like being okay, we're gonna figure it out.
That's a big step. A lot ofpeople are like, ah, what am I
gonna do? I'm freaking out, youknow, or whatever. And I get
that I've been there absolutelybut with age and experience and
and, and not just experiencewithin the industry or within

(17:40):
whatever it is you're doing, butexperience in the world things
that happen, the distresses andthe good things and the
solutions that come from you andyou in your peer group are super
important for translating intowhat you do for, I think, for a
living, certainly in thecreative world.

It really resonated when you mentioned
that you were working to fundlike the experiences. Because
for me, when I was graduatingfrom college, or even when I
was, you know, initially lookingat kind of internships, I was
pretty clear about what Iwanted, and it was to travel the
world. That's what I wanted. Iwanted to travel the world. So

(18:24):
wherever I landed, it justneeded to be a job that allowed
me to travel the world, whetherby funding that or by sending me
around the world. And I did. I,you know, I ended up in the
energy industry, which did bothof those things, and I, I sort,
I think I sort of had amentality of, kind of always

(18:46):
take, I guess, the road lesstraveled. Although I think if we
really reflect on what RobertFrost meant with that poem, it's
a little different. But like,just always take the option that
seems the most out of leftfield, right. Well, I could
have, I could have stuck aroundin the US. I raised my hand for
an expat assignment immediately,right? I ended up in Azerbaijan

(19:08):
Republic of Georgia, Angola,Alaska, like I wanted to get out
there and see the world. Thesewere all places that I could
work, learn the culture, reallyembed, and then also jumping off
points to other parts of theworld where I could explore and
absorb culture. But that wasalways the goal. Was always to

(19:28):
have experience this world asmuch as possible. So when you
mentioned that, it really,really resonated.

Ben Keller (19:37):
Well, I was talking about this with a friend the
other night. It's, it's one ofthose things, and I'm not really
sure which one it is. Is it?
It's curiosity and is it? Is ita learned thing, or is it a
genetic thing? Which is it? Anddoes it matter? Like I have it,
and I know people who just don'tI'm when I first moved to Maine,

(19:58):
I met a fellow who had neverleft Mount Desert. He was like,
40 years old, what I had alreadybeen, you know, across the
world. I'd worked in Alaska, Ilived in different cities in the
US. I had lived in Europe, youknow, and I wanted more. And he
was perfectly okay. And noshade. I just it. Just don't
what is it? Is it? Is it aneducation thing? Is it a genetic

(20:23):
thing? Is it a upbringing thing?
What? What is it that gives youthat curiosity? Heck, even
within my own family, there arefolks that just don't have the
same curiosity that I have in mydirect lineage. You know, it's,
it's, it's interesting. And thatcuriosity, I think, drives us
to, you, to see what's aroundthe bend, even if you can see

(20:46):
the first 20 feet of the path,you don't know what's around the
bend, but let's go find out.

Yeah, I share that curiosity, and in some
regards, it's almost like ahunger that I think I do respect
and maybe even envy a little bitthe safety of being happy just
with what we have. You know, Ido strive to just be satisfied

(21:16):
with what I have and not alwaysbe like yearning for the next
thing. And also I just think,like, humans are so fascinating
and vibrant, and I love seeingother cultures, like
experiencing them, not just as atourist, although, you know,
sometimes that's the only waythat you can do it, that's

(21:36):
that's the opportunity. Butreally, like soaking into that,
and I don't know it's never goneaway like that travel I that bug
has never left me.

Ben Keller (21:46):
Well, and for me in my professional life, it's very
clear that whatever brain stewhappens when I travel helps my
creativity in a way that I don'tnormally get when I shoot in
familiar territory around thePortland area when I'm on the
road, even if it's not that faraway, even if it's just up

(22:07):
north, a bit, you know, up toAugusta or Bangor or something,
you know, like there's, there'ssomething that happens
physically, with the chemistrythat helps my create creative
levels. And it's so, yes, it'skind of a hunger, and yes, I
also want to be happy with whatI've got, but I know that it

(22:29):
feeds me in a way that isimportant, both to me personally
and to my to my business.

Yeah, I mean, it's one of the reasons they
say, like, even if teams arestuck, or if you're trying to
brainstorm or what, and you'rein, you're feeling stuck, the
best thing to do is toimmediately change your
environment. And that might beget outside and go for a walk.
It might be go to a cafe downthe road. It might be go to the
cafeteria if you're at theoffice, but it is to change your

(22:56):
environment. And I think theother piece there, you know,
Julia Cameron talks about this alot in her Artist's Way book
about, you know, exposingyourself to different stimuli
and different modalities ofwhether it's art or culture or
nature, just to create that kindof, I don't know, potpourri of

(23:20):
inputs that then who knows whatcomes from it. It's hard to
understand how that'sinfluencing us in our creative
drive.

Ben Keller (23:26):
Yeah, absolutely. I recently read a book, I'm sorry
I can't remember the author'sname, called Kill the Dog. And
it was a, it was a book aboutscript writing and and one of
his biggest points was to findyour voice. And he said the best
way to do that is to he put itlike this. I'm not sure I'd use

(23:50):
it, but he said to be aconsumer, like read every book
you can possibly read, haveevery conversation you can
possibly have, meet everybodythat you can possibly meet, and
just keep going like that,because all of that information,
all that input, is going to helpdrive your creative output. And

(24:10):
I really believe in that. And itgoes beyond just consuming other
media, consuming other movies orvideos, surely very important
for me to do that in myindustry, but definitely books,
conversations, being social whenpossible, and going, just like
getting in the car and go findsomething, change your

(24:31):
surroundings. Wake up someplacedifferent. Just go, even if it
means sleeping in your car inthe North Woods, someplace. Just
do it.

Do not claim responsibility for you not
bringing snacks.

Ben Keller (24:45):
Yeah, definitely bring snacks and some water

and a reflective blanket.

Ben Keller (24:53):
Tell somebody that you're going before you go and
when you

get your cell phone.
Yeah.

Ben Keller (25:00):
Well, they don't all, not every adventure has to
be like that. And I'm not evensaying that that's an extreme
example, but, but even justgoing to see something in a town
two towns over, there's, I'vebeen three or four times now,
there's a stream two towns overthat the Alewives run in in May,

(25:21):
and I just go and I sit with themosquitoes and the fish and the
running water, and just hang outand watch them, and it does
amazing things to my brain. Imean, there's all kinds of
science that says that runningwater and watching fire are two
very important things that helpstimulate different chemical

(25:43):
processes in your brain. Great,but I like the fish. I'm not
there for the waterparticularly, I'm there for the
fish. So I'm hanging out and itjust, it's, you know, 15 minutes
from my house and but I comeback from that experience
feeling refreshed, renewed, awalk on the beach, even sitting
on the back porch watching thechipmunks, whatever, you know,
change it, change your yoursituation. It helps amazingly.

(26:06):
So of course, I think thefurther you go down that, the
more it's like, it's like, Icould run around the block and,
sure, okay, you get a littlesomething from that. But then
you do 100 mile race, then youget a lot out of that. And sort
of the same with with lifeexperience and ex and adventure
I think.

Yeah, for, for the non-Mainers that are
listening, which I think is mostof our listenership, an Alewife
is a fish. So they, when Ben'stalking about the Alewives,
there's, like, a, there's GoogleAlewives. It's pretty
interesting. But yeah, whenthey're running, it's a pretty
interesting thing here.

Ben Keller (26:40):
They're related to Herring.

Yes, yes, they're often used as bait fish, but
there's a lot of history aroundAlewives, so I digress. So okay,
we're talking about, like,taking some of these adventures,
adventures with a little a or abig A. Maybe it's in the cart.
Maybe it's like, really just,you know, plopping down in
another country and setting downsome roots. So what? What are

(27:08):
your thoughts on, like, thedifference between risk, you
know, how do you conceptualizerisk in this? Are we just, I
mean, because clearly, I'm anengineer by background. I'm not
telling people to just put theirlittle risk worries aside and go
take on unmitigated risks. Andyet I do, like invite an element
of risk into my life. I have arisk tolerance or a risk

(27:32):
appetite, I would say so, like,what? I don't know. What are
your thoughts?

Ben Keller (27:36):
Well, that's a great question. I guess if you want to
be smart and safe about it, youdo research, you factor in your
capabilities, honest, be honestabout that, and then you can
sort of figure out what the riskis and whether It's acceptable

(27:56):
for you, however, sort of usinga metaphor from when my ex wife
was pregnant, we decided that wewere going to try and do
hypnobirthing. The woman athypnobirthing said, great. Write
out a plan. Make sure it's verydetailed, down to like, what you

(28:16):
want, when you want it, thatkind of thing. Put it all
together on a nice list, crumpleit up and throw it away, because
it doesn't matter. Risk is goingto happen whether you like it's
whether you think you've got itor not. There could be something
that's just out of your control.
So what you do know is howyou're going to be able to react
to that and so. So if you're notconfident in your ability to

(28:37):
handle situations when they sortof get bigger than you expected,
then that's important to knowself knowledge. So whenever
going into a situation, even ifyou think you've got the risk
relatively covered, you stillhave to know or believe that you
have a certain level of selfreliance within all of it, and

(29:00):
that goes for everything inlife, I think, because the way
the world works is stuff canjust come out of left field
without you knowing it, and theonly thing that you have control
over in that situation isyourself.

Yeah? I think yeah, for me, I, I often will
say, like, truly, what's theworst case credible scenario,
right? Like, that risk, thatrisk manager brain comes back
in, what's the worst casecredible scenario and legit,
sometimes the worst case,credible scenario is that you
end up thrown in a foreign jailand you can't reach your family.
And, I mean, that was like...

Ben Keller (29:38):
Well, that's, well, that's exactly it. I mean, are
you, are you okay with that? Andif you're not okay with that,
that, while the percentage mightbe very small, that that would
happen, it could happen. So whatare you going to do if that's
the case? So I've alertedeveryone. I know that I'm going,
this is where I'm going to be. Iwill check in on the daily
basis. Blah, blah, blah, blah,blah, like there's ways. Is to

(30:00):
mitigate that risk, but there'sno way to ever eliminate it.

Yeah

Ben Keller (30:04):
And so you have to know and and for the most part,
most of the adventures that I'vebeen on my in my life have been
more of the sort where ifsomething goes wrong, it'll be
probably something in nature ornatural I have run up against

(30:25):
person or people issues before,but none of them have ever
really I do try to mitigate thatbecause that, you know, nature
is fairly reliable. You know,it's people that are the wild
card, yeah, especially whentraveling in foreign countries
where they don't necessarilyspeak English and that kind of
thing, so so that or you don'tspeak their language more

(30:46):
precisely. Yeah, that's that'swhere things can get fairly
complicated. But before you dothat again, you do your
research. You make sure that yougot all your bases covered. Can
I cannot take a drone to thatcountry? Do I need a visa for
that country? Do I need acarnet, which is a piece of
paper telling them that you'rebringing in production
equipment, et cetera, et cetera,et cetera, all that kind of

(31:08):
stuff, so you can wing it, butthen when you wing it, the risk
levels go way up. And if you'resuper confident, you can think
you can deal with it, whatever,then good on you. But I'm not
that way. I will try andmitigate what I can, and then,
and then the rest. But there, Imean, I have countless examples
where things have happened thatI did not even, didn't even

(31:32):
register as a possibility. Wasjust like, oh yeah, this pass
through the mountains isactually not passable by a
vehicle, uh, where this personis actually not gonna come and
be in this video because someweird, you know, force beyond
your control has told them theycan't. Then what do you do?
You're like, Ah, so it happens,and you just have to know or

(31:56):
believe that 90% of what happensis something that you'll be able
to to cope with.

Yeah, yeah.
There's, oh, man, there's allthese books I'm thinking about
right now. There was this oneabout, um, it's called 4000
Weeks, but, and I've talkedabout it before, this Oliver
Berkman book, but, you know, hetalks about, like, you'll cross
that bridge when you get to it.
There are certain things you cankind of foresee, plan for. And
then there's an element of, Iknow that I am resourceful, I am

(32:30):
capable, and I will cross thatbridge when I get to it, because
there is only so much that wecan predict, right? And I think
that this is in business too.
This is in almost all thingslike, what do I know? What you
know reasonably, can I add tothat? And then we got to make a
decision, and we get it's a goor no go, or it's a, you know,
you'll never get all theinformation. You'll never be

(32:51):
able to mitigate all of therisks. And in fact, there's a
book I'm reading right nowcalled, I think it's called
unwinding anxiety. But they talkabout like this. These are kind
of patterns that we build overtime, almost like habits for how
we engage with that concept ofmitigating all the risks, right?
Like you never will. But if youpattern that into your brain

(33:15):
over and over again, then itbecomes almost a habit that you
sort of feel like that's whatdrives anxiety, according to
this book, whereas driving thehabit of, okay, I did my due
diligence, I got what I could,and I know I am capable, I am
resourceful. I will handle it,what I will do the best I can
when the time comes. That's adifferent habit. That's a

(33:36):
different pattern.

Ben Keller (33:38):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I think back on my life,
and I think it would have shame,it would have would have been to
miss some of theseopportunities. If I had said to
myself, I don't think I couldhandle that, yeah, you know, but
it's also like one of thosethings, like when I got my very
first job, they said you have tohave cashier experience. And I

(34:01):
said, Sure, I know how to run acashier, never having run a
cashier in my entire life,because you weren't going to get
that entry level job withouthaving entry level experience,
which makes zero sense. So youjust sort of say, I know I can
pick this up. I know I can dothis. And you have to go in
there with a confidence that youcan and and if you do, the

(34:25):
chances of you performing and beable to do it are so much
greater.

Yeah, so, okay, maybe story time. What's one of
the weirdest situations you'vegotten yourself in that you feel
comfortable sharing with thepublic? Right here? This is PG
rated.

Ben Keller (34:46):
Well, I have, I have a number, but let's talk about
one that wasn't life or death,and this one actually was. They
were both the two stories that Iwant to tell. Both of them were
on, on shoots. The first one,when I was, I was filming a
travel for surf televisionseries for the outside
television network, and it wascalled perfect days, and we

(35:10):
would go to various differentlocations, and we had a host,
and we'd film her, sort of doingwhat the locals do, not like a
normal tourists, but sort ofliving as locals would eat in
the same kind of food and gointo the same kind of places,
doing the same kind of things,and then surfing amazing waves.

(35:31):
So we had this one shoot inHawaii, and we were filming it
on Kauai, which is an amazinglybeautiful island, and the people
there are incredible. They arevery clear that you they want
you to come visit and go home.
They don't want you stickingaround for too long. And we had
a pro who was going to come surfwith us on Kauai. He was a pro

(35:56):
with one of the sponsors for theshow. So we put the whole thing
together. He's like, hey, noproblem, no problem, no problem.
And so we fly to Kauai, and weshoot a couple of days, and
we're getting in sort of therhythm and things, and then and
he's nowhere to be found. I go,Okay, where is he? So shoot him

(36:18):
an email, and he's like, I'm notcoming. And we're like, what? So
we get him on the phone, and Iwon't use anybody's names, but
he basically said, Did you askthis person if I could come? And
we said, Excuse me, what do youjust come over and surf? He

(36:43):
said, No, brah. That's not theway it works here. Did you ask
him if I could come over andsurf? I said, No, I talked to
him a while ago, but he wantedthe all he like he didn't
understand the size of theproduction. He thought we were
much bigger, and he wanted us tocross a bunch of people's palms
with silver, and we weren'tgoing to do that. And and he

(37:04):
said, then I'm not coming. Noone goes to surf that island
without this guy's permission.
And we were like, we just flewall the way across the country,
across the Pacific Ocean to filmyou, and now you're not coming.
And people were angry. Theproduction office back home was

(37:29):
like, forget it, put everythingaway. Come home. Like, what?
That makes zero sense to go allthe way home, and I was the
producer on this, and secondcamera, and I was producer on
this, so in the space of 48hours, 72 hours, the production
that we had started came to ascreeching halt. And but people

(37:53):
were threatening on pullingmoney and and we were
essentially gonna be stranded onKauai, not the worst place to be
stranded, but still stranded. Soso we had to figure out exactly
what to do. So it took me aperiod of, I don't know,
probably 12 hours, but havingbeen put in situations where

(38:18):
talent has bailed and that sortof thing prior, I had an
opportunity to go and convenewith some folks back home and
talk about our different angles.
And we ended up getting anotherpro to work with us on Kauai. We
ended up getting the sponsor tokick in for flights to Oahu. So

(38:43):
we flew to Oahu for two days andfilmed that Pro and then flew
back to Kauai. So it was, it wasone of those things where
reputation and money andrelationships were on the line,
and because of my previousexperiences of having dealt in a

(39:07):
production environment wherethings like this had gone wrong,
I was able to sort of pattingmyself on the back here, I was
sort of able to put together ashow That turned out way better
than the original vision,actually was because we got to
see this pro on Kauai was verymuch the hui and which means
sort of like the family. And sohe took us to some amazing

(39:31):
places on the island that wewould have never gone otherwise.
And so we ended up with anincredible episode and told
never to come back again.
Which is hilarious, but I thinkthe other one is more sort of
sort of life and death. I wasfilming my last film, which was

(39:53):
called Just One Step, and wewere filming a race out in
Colorado, and this race. Race iswidely known as one of the most
difficult 100 mile races in theworld. And in fact, they give
you 48 hours versus the normal24 hours to finish it. It's
called the Hard Rock and it's inthe San Juan Mountains in

(40:15):
southwestern Colorado.

I know that, yes, I used to live in Durango.

Ben Keller (40:19):
Okay, so right, right around there. And so the
first bit of the run just headsup into some of the foothills
and stuff. It was easy enough toI was following two or three
runners through the whole race,and it was easy enough to follow
them there. And then I went upinto, I forget, one of the
passes, pretty far into one ofthe passes and got to one of the

(40:44):
the check in rest stations, andfilmed my runners come through,
and hung out with them for alittle bit as they took off. And
I had, I think, about six, nofour hours to get to the next
stop. And that meant I could goall the way back down through

(41:06):
the pass and take the highwayover and then go up another pass
and maybe make it in time. Or Icould follow the map and take
Engineer Pass, and that would...

I literally know Engineer Pass

Ben Keller (41:21):
It cut hours and hours and hours off of my
commute. So I was like, Yeah,I'm doing that. So not by myself
in a car that is a mall crawlerat best, two wheel drive, you
know, shaped like an SUV, butclearly not actually an SUV. So

(41:44):
off I go into Engineer Pass. Andif you know Engineer Pass, and
when I got back, and I finallygot back and did some research
on it, they said, in no way,take your vehicle down this path
with this. We don't maintainthis in any way, shape or form.
And I have a video of itsomeplace. I filmed, I was like,
I was laughing, because I wasterrified. There was, you know,

(42:06):
I the things that I put that carthrough. Thank God I had the
insurance. I blew a tire. Iopened up the the tire
compartment, and and it was adonut halfway through. So I had
the donut. And then, and thejack was missing a piece, so I

(42:30):
so I had to take a rock and bendthe jack like smash the jack
handle into the right shape tomake this thing work. Got the
donut on finally. And as I wasdoing that, a couple of people
went by on the way up, and theyhad these massive, jacked up
vehicles, and, you know, pickupswith, you know, so much lift and

(42:51):
everything. And they're like,Hey, are you all right? I'm
like, yeah, I just blew a flatand, you know, finally got it
repaired. Took me a couplehours, but it's good. And they
said it doesn't get any betterthan this, so be really careful.
There's nothing. There's nothingwe can do for you here, and no
one's coming to get you. I waslike that. I'll be fine. And so

(43:15):
I'm gonna go to the part wherewhat they didn't say. It didn't
get better, surely. Sobasketball shaped diamond,
pointy rocks everywhere, withhuge washouts where, you know,
my front bumper would begrinding against the rocks as I
drove out of it, to the pointwhere it started raining and

(43:36):
everything got really slippery,and I got to the part of the
section which isn't actuallythat far from the exit point,
but it's a sheer cliff on oneside, and on the other side,
it's a sheer drop, and notreally wide enough for an entire
vehicle. So there were severaltimes when I was going over this

(44:00):
with the donut, where the reartire would slide off the edge of
the road, and so I would, Iwould accelerate and smash into
the cliff wall in order to keepthe car on this whole time, what
I didn't realize, and Ieventually made it out, but it

(44:22):
was like excruciating, and Imissed everybody, obviously,
everybody at the next stop andthe stop after that. And what I
what I didn't realize, was thatwhatever my previous experience
in the world of adverseconditions and putting myself in
situations that I didn'tunderstand was that I was

(44:46):
keeping it together in such away that when I finally got out
and parked the car, I actuallybroke down and started crying
because the amount of stress andwhatever fear and all of these
things like I'm letting thesepeople down who I'm here to work
for. I'm terrified they're gonnago off the edge of the cliff and
no one's gonna find my body andlike, all of this was building

(45:07):
up, in a way, but there wassomething about me. There's
like, Okay, here's the mission,and we have to, we have to solve
this problem, because no one'scoming to get you. You have to
do it yourself. Do it. Let's getit done. We'll get down, and
then we'll deal with the followup from there. Did it and yeah,
and it was just a massiverelease when I parked, and then

(45:30):
I got out and I went over to therest stop, and there was one of
the guys who kind of went up inthe truck, and he said, I'm glad
to see we were about to sendsomebody up to find you, because
we pretty much figured you weredone up there. So little kudos
to myself. But also, like, thisis the risk that I took so, you

(45:50):
know, and then had to deal with,like, I had to get a full size
replacement. And I actuallybought a five pound sledge at
the Walmart so I could bangparts of the car back into the
regular shape. It was like itwas like it was a it was a
disaster. But what I learnedfrom that experience is that I
am capable in those situations.
I knew that I probably would be,but it was so much worse than I

(46:13):
thought. The risk that I hadsort of calculated was going to
be based on to based on myexperience going on the other
passes so far as, like, allright, this car can handle. It's
not that big a deal. This wasgenuinely terrifying. As you
know, you've been on that pass,right? It's like, it's super
scary and really dumb to be upthere. Enough of my research, I

(46:35):
figured I could handle the risk,and I couldn't. Again, the only
thing that I had any controlover was myself in that moment.
And the film turned out to be anaward winning film, by the way.

oh my gosh, congratulations.
And it's available on Amazon andApple. You can watch it. It's
called Just One Step, and it'sabout the human need to run. And
yeah, and a big portion of itdeals with a woman who ran and a
guy who ran that race, and theytalk about their need and desire

(47:15):
to run, but what doing, too muchof it, can actually do to you.
And so that was the perfect racefor that, because it's a crazy,
crazy, difficult race, and theypush themselves to the limit.
And I think I pushed myself tothe limit in terms of production
as well. So...
Yeah. I mean, as soon as yousaid Engineer Pass, I was like,

(47:37):
intake, breath, intake. Yeah. Soand I keep thinking about my
it's interesting. A lot of myclients, especially ADHD
clients, I think probably ADHDclients, they will often beat
themselves up about not stickingwith these like maintenance

(48:01):
tasks or not sticking with thesethings. You know, think not
keeping with a rhythm orwhatever it is. But, man, a lot
of them are really good in acrisis. When they get that hyper
focus, it's like we do need someof the we need a mix, right? We
do need the people who arereally good at just following
through steady Eddy, silentrunning, as we say in

(48:22):
operations, you know, like and,and we also need the folks too,
who can just like, I don't know.
I know exactly. I know exactlywhat you mean about the self
management in the crisis. Andthat is not everybody, and
that's okay, right? We inemergency response. They kind of
teach you, when you're the onscene commander, how to identify

(48:42):
the folks who are like a deer inheadlights, the folks that are
not handling the stress or thatfight or flight reaction very
well, and you get them out ofthe way. And then the folks who
are like handling the crisis arelaser focused. And then there's
the decompression afterwards,right? There's the crying,
there's the like closing thestress cycle, because,

(49:04):
literally, your body's beenfloated with adrenaline and
cortisol and all these thingsand and you've probably faced
your mortality. So, so yeah, asyou were it just is a reminder
to me, of, you know,unfortunately, because we see
the day to day so much moreoften than we see the crisis
situation. Many folks kind offorget how good they can be in a

(49:26):
crisis. Sometimes not that I'minviting them to go collect more
crises to remind themselves, butwe should give ourselves credit
where it's due when we are goodin a crisis, even if we're not
really good at I don't know,yeah, like, maintenance tasks.

Ben Keller (49:44):
Yeah, right. One of the things that I will say as
well, though, is it's not justabout adventure and experience
in this, because it's not justabout, like, how to handle
yourself when things go wrong,but also how to take the things
that are good and. Make themspectacular. I think that some
of my the way I tell stories,some of the angles I get, some

(50:06):
of the knowledge I have aroundnatural systems, just because
I've spent so much time in theoutdoors, helps me create some
of these images and thesestories about these natural
places or whatever, because I'veimmersed myself in it, I know
how it works, generallyspeaking, if I don't, I find
out, because I want to be ableto really encapsulate it in a

(50:27):
really truthful way, but in away that is alluring and
captivating and will engage theviewer. And so those are some of
the more positive things, youknow that, yeah, all the way
down to like, simple things likecamera angle or time of day, you

(50:47):
know, those kinds of things areall things you pick up just by
being out there in the world.

Yeah? I mean, and also, there's another similarity
I'm seeing, too, with your workand coaching, or whatever your
path, my path in that, I thinkwe both found career paths where
that allow us to, like, weave insome of these different sources
of like, fulfillment and joy andbraid them into a career. Right?
We've kind of created careersthat allow us to go tap into

(51:16):
that and and then use that inservice of the vision the
client. You know, use that rawmaterial of experience and kind
of channel that, but it feelslike a virtuous cycle. How do
you mean just in that like yougo get more experiences than you

(51:42):
bring that into the folds and itand it sparks joy, and it sparks
creativity, and then that begetsmore. And so that's what, that's
what I mean by the virtuouscycle versus a vicious cycle,
which is like getting worse andworse.

Ben Keller (51:55):
Yeah, agree.

Actual like virtue,

Ben Keller (51:59):
Argree 100%

Yeah. So I think I want to highlight one of the
projects that you're working on,because it's pretty dear to my
heart, and I'm going to take alittle bit of credit for the
introduction, but tell me alittle bit about this upcoming
project that you're doing withthe around travel.

Ben Keller (52:27):
You should take all the credit for that
introduction, because I wouldnot have met Natalia without
you. So your friend, Natalia,runs a company. They're changing
the name, it will soon be calledMavka Tours. Mavka, I guess in
Ukrainian, means spirit of theforest.

Oh, I love that.
Yeah.

Ben Keller (52:49):
Yeah, that's great.
And we have come up through avariety of ways. We were
starting with the idea of, howdo we increase our marketing
presence? But then we sort ofcame up with the idea of
something that is sort of nearand dear and really important to

(53:12):
me as well, which is the idea ofsustainable tourism. Right now,
it's sort of a hot button, maybenot in the US, because there are
so many other hot buttons, butthe the around the world, there
are crazy things happening inthe rejection of standard
tourism, because it's noisy,it's expensive, it's destructive
in ways that don't necessarilyhave to be so mavka tours leads
a number of tours that aresustainable and give back To the

(53:37):
people and the cultures thatthey are exploring with with
their clients. So they takesmall groups of clients out into
the world. In this case, in thisupcoming season, they'll be
going to Transylvania, Georgiaand Morocco, and they live with
people, and they cook with themand sing with them, and they

(54:01):
walk around their villages andsee things that you wouldn't see
if you just went to the Louvre.
I'd say there's anything wrongwith that. I love going to the
louver, but everybody goes tothe Louvre and and what kind of
damage is that doing to themuseum and the city and the
people? I mean, they closed ittwo weeks ago. They're like,

(54:22):
this is too much, and they justshut the doors and nobody could
go see the museum. So we havetalked about creating this short
film on sustainable tourism, andjust had a nice conversation the
other night about it and lookinglike it's probably a go, but

(54:42):
when you were talking about riskand that sort of thing, it's
definitely one of those thingsthat's on my mind, especially
going to Georgia as an American,and what I can and can't do
within those countries without,with. Out going through the
channels that a major productionwould go through, and so

(55:07):
navigating those waters aresomething that I have to do in
advance, and yeah, and andtrying to figure out what the
risks are, what mitigating risksare. I've already done a bunch
of research as to whether I cantake drones to those countries,
and what I need to do with thedrone before I get there, the
amount of equipment I can it.
Can't take that sort of thing,permissions with Mavca and Mavca

(55:30):
clients and that sort of thing.
So that's all pre Pro. And thenwe're, we're talking about
story. We're in the process, wehave some funds. We're in the
process of raising more fundsfor it, it's in terms of
documentaries. It's very, verylow budget documentary, which is
fantastic. It's almost betterthat way, because this is about

(55:54):
being off the beaten path. It'snot polished, and it's going to
be beautiful in and of itself.
It don't need any sort of, like,false shine on it. So really
excited about it. It's going tobe an amazing project. Natalia
Mavka is an amazing human being,and we're just going to end up
with a really fabulous piece atthe end of it.

Yeah, I initially thought to introduce you both,
because, well, I've traveledwith Natalia. In fact, my most
recent trip to Georgia wasincredible up in the Garian
Mountains, which I've you know,I used to work in Georgia, but I
never got to really get out tothe western part of the country

(56:39):
and experience that I never gotout to, like Batumi in the Black
Sea. And so that was anincredible experience. Even
though I've been to the countryprobably countless times, it was
a totally different experiencefor me. And so when I was seeing
another piece that you wereshowing some of our colleagues,
I saw the way you werehighlighting nature, and just

(57:03):
like bringing us into it, and Ithought, I we need this for
Georgia, right? We need this forsome of these, these trips that
I've gotten experience with myown eyes. But when I try to
verbally tell people about it,or even show them a photo, it's
not the same. You can't reallycapture and I felt like you had
really captured it. So that'swhat prompted the introduction
of I was like, Man, these twopeople really need to talk, and

(57:26):
hopefully they can combineforces and bring something
incredible that tells a story,opens it up to for folks who
maybe can't get on a plane andgo travel to these places, like
maybe they can get a littletaste of it from afar. So I'm
really excited, and we'll beputting the the fundraising link

(57:46):
in the show notes and in ournewsletter, so that hopefully
other folks can partake andsupport this, if it's something
that they feel called to,because the sustainable travel
piece is big. I still I feeltorn that I want to see and
experience all of these culturesin the world, and also I don't

(58:07):
want to do harm, right? So...

Ben Keller (58:08):
Well, that's, that's the bigger thing about it, and
not just there, but Maine. Imean, Maine has, has a tourism
economy, and there are places inMaine, I've worked with clients
and Land Trust clients who arelike, Well, we do want to let
people know that it's publicaccess, but we don't really want
to let people know it's publicaccess, because all of a sudden

(58:31):
there'll be people tramping allover it and and essentially
doing all the damage to all thework that we've done. So there's
there. So hopefully this piecewill will show people that there
is another way. There's a waythat's outside the box, that can
be as if not more fulfilling.
You know, you won't just come toPortland to eat the food and you
know, see the Lobsterman Statue.

(58:54):
You can come to Portland and seea whole other side of it. See
the art scene, the way thepeople live here. You can go to
other parts of Maine. Maine isreally unique. It's one of the
oldest territories in thecountry, and it still has some
of the laws and rules from 1787you know, like that. Like, it's

(59:15):
a neat place, and there's waysto see it that aren't just
everybody to the Old Port, youknow.

At noon, but as I'm trying to make it to a
meeting, so, you know, the thingthat occurred to me too is that
now that I am a little bit morerisk aware to traveling with
someone who understands and hasmade those local connections,
understands the quote, unquotetopography, you know, but the

(59:44):
cultural topography even is sovaluable because I think reflect
one of my wilder stories isprobably when I was maybe 25 I
think around 25 I didn't haveany buddy to work with, to
travel. I was working inGeorgia. I lived in Azerbaijan,
and I knew I wanted to seeArmenia, so I hitchhiked to

(01:00:04):
Armenia. I hitchhiked the buswas broken that day, and I was
determined to go on my weekend,so I hitchhiked, right? I
probably took way more risk thanI should have. I mean, I
definitely think that they weredrinking vodka in the car. It
was like me and three grown men,and they didn't speak any
English, and I got to practicemy Russian a lot. But, you know,
talking about the Engineer Passlike, that was the, those were

(01:00:24):
the types of roads we weredriving on.

Ben Keller (01:00:26):
That's amazing!

Erica D'Eramo (01:00:27):
I made it, but not the best decisions for, you
know, not necessarily the mostwise decisions. Um, useful,
definitely. But now, likeknowing, I always felt like I
was in safe hands with Natalia,and I know, you know, similarly
with folks coming to Maine, likehaving that local person that

(01:00:47):
understands what sustainablecould look like and can mitigate
the risks in a responsible way,I think there's a lot to be said
for that.

Well, yeah, I mean, that's one of the powerful
things about using somebodylikeMavka to do that sort of
thing is because they aredirectly tapped in to the local
communities and cultures. Andthey actually, Mavka gives 10%
of their profits back to thosecommunities, and they're putting
money directly in their pocketsfrom the tours. And so they're

(01:01:17):
reinvesting in these communitiesthat are sort of bearing the
brunt of our curiosity, really,that's a sort of a cynical way
to put it, but they're the oneswho are going to are going to
have to deal with the tourismand so. So by incorporating them
and and giving back to them,they are ensuring that these

(01:01:40):
cultures are known and they'realso being preserved, and that's
usually important. And if youwent just by yourself, would be
a little harder to do that, Ithink, especially in a country
where your language, your nativelanguage, isn't anywhere near
their native language, and solike, there's no it's beyond
pointing at something, and it'shard, I assume, to have a full

(01:02:04):
on conversation about who shouldI be supporting in this
community, you know? So, sohaving that in is is hugely
important in the equation ofsustainable tourism, for sure.

I mean, in Georgian, I can't even read the
alphabet, the Georgian alphabet,actually, so really, just at the
mercy of folks in communityhelping me. So, all right,
what's, what's the headline forour I guess, what's the key
takeaway that our listenersshould when they close down this
podcast episode, should keepwith them.

Ah, that I believe, anyway, that if you are going to
really excel at what it is thatyou have chosen to do what your
chosen career is, it's not justabout the book work. It's about

(01:02:59):
how you bring how you show up toit, and how you show up if you
come in a multi colored coatversus a coat that's just one
color, you're going to be ableto handle situations. You're
going to be able to be morecreative. You're going to be

(01:03:21):
able to understand how to have aconversation, and you're going
to be able to excel in ways thatyou might not be able to if you
don't go out and live a life aswell. ]

Yeah, yeah, live the life, yes. Okay, and how do
people

And that's not to say that people who've decided
not to do that and put all theirtime in focusing on one thing
that's their if that's theirdrive, and that's what's what's
doing it for them, that isamazing. But for me, I believe
the best way for me to functionin any given especially in the
creative spheres, is to be ableto wear that coat, that multi

(01:04:09):
color coat.

Yeah, it might, I mean, it might be too that you
just delve deeply and curiouslyinto the surroundings that you
have available to you, right?
Like it can look very different.
But I, yeah, I, I'm probably,I'm on the same wavelength.
Where do people find you? Wherecan they find your work? What if

(01:04:31):
they want to work with you?
Like, who? How do we how dopeople engage with you?
Typically?

Well, they could certainly go to our website,
Kellermediaworks.com, andthere's a portfolio on there
that has a number of things onit, a variety of things,
everything from corporate allthe way to documentary and
everything in between. You canlook at, and then you can reach
out to us, or to me atBkeller@kellermediaworks.com and
I would love to have aconversation with anyone about

(01:05:01):
any video thought they mighthave. I love having the
conversations. It may not alwaysturn out that I'd be the right
one to work with, but, buthaving the conversations is
always amazing. What peopledesire to have done sometimes is
just amazing things that Ihaven't even thought of and

(01:05:23):
bouncing those ideas off of meand then and then me sort of
taking it and running with it,even in the space of a half hour
conversation is always reallyenergy providing for me. So if
you want to just reach out andhave a conversation about an
idea that you have that you wantto do, then I'm totallydown with
that.

Awesome I know, like I'm still figuring out how
we're going to use video forTwoPiers. So keep an eye, folks
there. I can't have avideographer, producer in my
life and not actually dosomething with video. So
there'll be something coming forTwo Piers at some point once Ben

(01:06:04):
convinces me to get in front ofthe camera, which I know you
will do, so we will includelinks to your website and to the
fundraiser in in the show notes.
And yeah, thank you so much,Ben. This has been a really
enjoyable conversation.

Oh, my pleasure, and thank you so much for having me.
I really, really appreciate it.
I love talking about adventurewith people. So this has been
really, really wonderful.

Awesome. And for our listeners, you can find a
summary of this episode on ourwebsite, and you can find the
full transcript, if that ishelpful, and we will see you
next episode.

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Into the Unknown: How Adventure Builds Confidence and Creative Power - with Filmmaker Ben Keller

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Into the Unknown: How Adventure Builds Confidence and Creative Power - with Filmmaker Ben Keller