December 5, 2024 • 23 mins
In this episode of the Two Piers Podcast, host Erica D'Eramo welcomes Sarah Scala, a leadership coach, consultant, and speaker, for a compelling conversation on navigating workplace challenges and driving authentic leadership. Together, they explore topics such as fostering resilience, embracing adaptability, and the importance of emotional intelligence in effective leadership. Sarah shares her professional journey, along with actionable advice for cultivating trust and navigating change in today’s dynamic work environments.
You can learn more about Sarah's journey and her offerings on her website: SarahScala.com
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Episode Transcript
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Erica D'Eramo (00:15):
Hello and welcome to the Two Piers podcast. I'm
your host, Erica D'Eramo andtoday we have guest Sarah Scala
joining us. Sarah is the founderof Sarah Scala Consulting, a
certified woman owned and LGBTbusiness enterprise that
provides organization andleadership development,
executive coaching, LGBTQ+leadership coaching, public
(00:36):
speaking facilitation and teamdevelopment solutions, serving
as a consultant, coach andeducator, her work transforms
the performance of leaders andteams, helping them to reach
their highest potential.
(00:59):
Hi, Sarah, thanks so much forjoining us today.
Sarah Scala (01:01):
Thank you, Erica for having me.
Erica D'Eramo (01:04):
So tell us a little bit about your origin
story, kind of what? What's thestory of Sarah?
Sarah Scala (01:11):
Well, the story of Sarah is that Sarah has been
supporting team and leadershipdevelopment now for over 25
years. There's a blog I wrotecalled how I got here. I'm sure
there'll be a link in yourfootnotes. But in high school,
we were able to do projectadventure team building, playing
(01:32):
on ropes courses and climbing.
And I went to college andstudied Adventure Recreation so
that I could be able tofacilitate and lead corporate
team building programs in theoutdoors. Since my you know,
career has evolved it now Ispend a pinch less time in the
outdoors doing team developmentand a lot more time doing
(01:53):
speaking, coaching, teamcoaching and leadership
development. But when I have anytime off, I'm right outside
biking and kayaking, so that'ssort of my origin, and I've been
fortunate to work in this fieldof team and leadership
development now for close to 25years.
Erica D'Eramo (02:16):
Yeah, wow, that's awesome. So what drew you to
this work that you're doing now,and maybe, maybe describe a
little bit about what thatmeans, what that you know, the
team and leadership development,what? What do you what? What
kind of work does that involve?
Sarah Scala (02:30):
Yeah, so with leadership development,
sometimes it's coaching CEOs andleaders of teams. Sometimes it's
coaching entire teams, soproviding leadership coaching to
intact teams. Sometimes clientswill bring me in because they're
having an off site or a retreat,and they want to have some of
(02:50):
their retreat to beexperientialized, meaning that
not necessarily we have to playoutside, although sometimes we
do, but giving the teams reallife opportunities to work
through challenges so that theycan keep learning and growing. I
also do a lot of work with teamson assessments. So whether it's
(03:13):
360 assessments for leaders, orassessments about wants and
needs or styles and approaches,and those tools have been really
helpful for building awarenesswith teams as well. So
Erica D'Eramo (03:29):
you mentioned, kind of starting out in this
outdoor environment and thenshifting more into the indoors
or inside the, you know, the Csuite or inside the conference
room. What? What brought thatkind of transition about for
you?
Sarah Scala (03:45):
Great question. So that transition came when I was
in my late 20s, early 30s. Iwent back to college and got a
master's degree in adultlearning and in organization
development so that I could domore corporate boardroom
ballroom type of design of thesetypes of programs so that that,
(04:10):
I think, was certainly a pivotpoint for moving from
predominantly outdoor basedexperiential learning to more
indoor based experientiallearning, leadership development
and again, assessments tosupport that.
Erica D'Eramo (04:27):
So after you got your masters, then what drew you
to this work, this type of work,that felt important to you?
Sarah Scala (04:35):
I have felt for a long time that leaders and their
teams need constant focus andconstant development. It's nice
to say you went to school andyou studied something, or you
have a degree, or you now have,you know, a PhD, or you're a
doctor, or you're a lawyer, forexample, that doesn't stop the
(04:57):
learning. And so the importanceof lifelong learning. Learning,
lifelong leadership development,having a growth mindset. Looking
at Carol Dweck work on mindsetsis really important, I think,
especially today. I mean, lookhow fast things are changing. We
have AI in the workplace. Wehave robots more involved in
(05:17):
manufacturing and in fast food,and so the people's roles in
organizations are going tocontinue to shift and change,
and I don't see that slowingdown. So my role to support
leaders and their evolution oftheir learning, of their
development of their awarenessis always going to be important
(05:39):
and needed?
Erica D'Eramo (05:41):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean, especially
as the role of the leader, likeyou said, shifts and changes. So
when you kind of meet withleaders or organizations, what
are some of the key challengesthat you come across that you
help these leaders andorganizations to overcome?
Sarah Scala (06:00):
Sometimes it's conflict. It's not surprising to
have members of teams that maynot see things the same way.
Many times it's awareness ofthings like strengths or styles,
and often it's about clarityaround expectations and roles. I
(06:20):
think many people think, Oh, welook at the team and they have
all these titles, but there's alot of overlap that can and
sometimes happens. There'ssometimes stepping on toes, and
there's sometimes a lack ofappreciation and thanks for each
other, for the members of theteam and for the leader. And so
those are some thoughts aroundthat.
Erica D'Eramo (06:41):
Yeah, so what's, what's something, what's a
struggle that you witness,particularly with your insight
as an LGBTQ+ leader and someonekind of leading the way in that
realm?
Sarah Scala (06:55):
Yep, it very much depends on the leader's
perception of inclusion andbelonging and their view of the
importance some leaders may say,Oh, I'm not about this dei
stuff. We hire people. People dothe job. People go home to their
families, their at home life isseparate from their at work
(07:18):
life. However, many of myclients that are increasingly
more and more successful havebecome very aware and willing to
learn about how to make theirworkplaces more inclusive, so
that all employees feel likethey can belong. One example,
(07:40):
you know, one of my clients,this was a few years ago, but
their doors to their facilitiesdid not have handicap accessible
buttons to get in, so anyonethat had mobility issues getting
to work was an issue for otherclients, they may or may not
(08:02):
have policies that supportdifferent orientations and
different needs. And so again,working with the company to say,
hey, here's some things we coulddo. What are you comfortable
doing? And so having thoseconversations being the third
party or being the outsider hasbeen really helpful, and not
(08:25):
every business sees these areasthe same, so helping them to see
how can some of these smallchanges impact their bottom line
of their business. And I know,you know, some people might
think, well putting feminine orhygiene products in all
restrooms. Doesn't really make abig deal on the bottom line, or
(08:46):
having same sex benefits orhaving handicap accessible
doors, but they would beincredibly wrong based on
studies. One example is from acensure that showed the
perception of inclusion from theleader to the employee, having a
gap of close to 20% and thecost, the opportunity cost, to a
(09:09):
US business, is 1.0 5t trilliondollars, so it absolutely
impacts a business's bottomline, how inclusive we can make
our workplaces, it's prettycritical. I don't know about
you, but most business leaders,when they hear the word
trillion, it causes them topause and think about that. It's
(09:32):
not a nice to have. It's a musthave.
Erica D'Eramo (09:36):
Yeah. I mean, how, based on your insight and
your experience, how do you seethat linkage playing out like,
what? What are the benefits ofan inclusive work environment,
where there's a high sense ofbelonging?
Sarah Scala (09:50):
So it's been very interesting, especially
recently, over the past sixmonths, where you have major
Fortune 50 companies who havesaid we are no longer doing.
Dei, and that's what ends up inthe newspaper, but the majority
of companies is still fundingand investing money in
strategies to support inclusionand belonging. And how do I see
(10:12):
that working out? Quite simply,people don't want to apply to
organizations where they're notinclusive, especially Gen Z. Gen
Z, I think 85 or 86% ofemployees at Gen Z, regardless
of their differences, will notapply to or work for a company
that is not perceived to beinclusive. 85% quite a big
(10:37):
amount of potential talent thatdoesn't even want to look at
your job postings or meet withyour recruiters. So there's the
talent acquisition piece, butthen there's a huge retention
piece, right? If we hang up thesigns and you know the rainbow
flags and Black Lives Matter andall of the other quote,
(10:57):
inclusive paraphernalia, butthen you get to the workplace,
and in fact, it's not safe, itdoesn't feel inclusive, and I
don't feel like I belong. I'mout, and I'm out within six
months to a year. So if you're abusiness owner or a leader, you
know how much time and money itcosts to bring in great talent.
(11:18):
A great way to keep the greattalent that you're bringing in
is to have a culture, haveguidelines, have rules that are
supporting belonging andinclusion, whether you're a
leader at the C suite, whetheryou're mid level, or whether
you're a new employee.
Erica D'Eramo (11:36):
Yeah. Do you tend to work with clients that
already see the value in thiswork, or do you end up
encountering clients that arehesitant about the value of this
work?
Sarah Scala (11:49):
Yep, great question. And I work with
clients on all ends of thatspectrum. I've had clients who
have said, Ah. So I've noticedthat dei is a topic keeps coming
up in my business journals.
We're not doing anything tosupport that. And this is 2220
2220 20. Can you help us? Andthen I have other clients,
(12:11):
major, you know, fortune, 100companies, who will call and
say, Hey, we've been doingemployee resource groups and
have a really robust GlobalInclusion and belonging program.
Can you speak at our Women'sHistory Month or our pride
event, or, you know, able andallies during Disability
Awareness Month? Can you help usin that way? And so I appreciate
(12:35):
the diversity in what clientsneed, it's never the same exact
story. And so that's fun,because it always keeps me on my
toes.
Erica D'Eramo (12:49):
Yeah, absolutely.
So what would you say you'remost excited about in in the
future of kind of leadershipthat you're seeing?
Sarah Scala (13:00):
Yeah, yeah. So I think, you know, the United
States of America may or may notgo through some shifts in the
next, you know, one to fouryears. We don't know, but it's
interesting, because as the morerecent, movement against dei has
been happening over the pastcouple of years, my business
(13:24):
demand in that specific area hasgone up, up, up. So it's hard to
know what is going to berequested businesses that are
serious about long terminclusion and belonging see the
value in investing in eitherconsulting to support that,
(13:45):
speaking around it, coaching tosupport it, leadership
development. So it's not my jobto convince a leadership team to
do this work. They have to sortof have that feeling that, you
know, curiosity around it, ordesire to give it a try or to do
it. But you'd be surprised howmany major organizations are
(14:08):
still coming out, asking andfiercely moving forward
leadership development wise, Ithink that's gonna obviously
keep expanding, simply becausethe world keeps changing and so
helping to meet leaders wherethey're at and where they're
going is going to repeatedly bea need.
Erica D'Eramo (14:29):
Yeah, where do you think leaders are really
struggling with this? I mean, itis a brave new world, kind of
and like you said, things arechanging really quickly. So
where do you see the major painpoints for leaders being yep,
Sarah Scala (14:43):
I would say, over the past five to seven years,
the difficulties I've seen withseasoned leaders have been their
acknowledgement or awarenessthat they're no longer going to
have every answer. They're goingto hire people who are sometimes
younger than. In them smarterthan them, more experienced than
them, and so their role as aleader is no no longer tell
(15:07):
someone what to do. It's aboutguiding and supporting direct
reports or those they lead tocontinue to elevate their
performance. So it's been apretty major shift that I'm
seeing that I don't see slowingdown, especially, you know, you
have all these younger peoplethat are graduating programs,
(15:29):
that are studying AI anddifferent types of engineering
and different ways of doingthings. And of course, they're
going to know different thingsthan you do, maybe as a 20, 30,
40, year old professional andleader, because they've just
recently been exposed to thesenew methods, tools and
(15:51):
technologies.
Erica D'Eramo (15:52):
Yeah, which feels like that might be a perennial
challenge for leaders, you know,like the Technology is always
changing. I guess that was thecase in the 1800s as well. But
the pace and the the structurehas changed as well. Like what
that means has changed.
Sarah Scala (16:13):
Yep, I see many organizations doing reverse
mentoring or peer mentoring,where you have very senior level
folks partnered with entry levelpeople because they know
different things. They have verydifferent skills, and it can be
reciprocal, as opposedhistorically, to mentor
programs, which I also build anddesign for companies where it
(16:36):
typically was the seniorexperienced person mentoring the
person who was newer. So I'veseen that as a major shift as
well.
Erica D'Eramo (16:46):
Yeah. So in terms of these challenges when you
were talking through it, I can'thelp but think about the
connection between inclusion andbelonging when the role of the
leader has shifted. So how doyou see those relating?
Sarah Scala (17:01):
So let me make sure I understand your question
inclusion and belonging and theshifting role of the leader.
Well, at the end of the day,people aren't going to stay or
do their best work in placesthat they don't feel accepted
and like they belong. Whetherthis is, you know, 1850, or
2040, in years, people aren'tgoing to want to stay where they
(17:23):
don't feel good about who theyare, the work that they're
doing, the contributions thatthey're making, and that they're
accepted. And so I think it'sgoing to be a challenge to
retain great talent. I see thatchallenge as increasing more and
more. If as a leader, you arenot providing a psychologically
(17:45):
safe work environment for yourteam, and if you're not
supporting inclusion, and youdon't have to love everybody,
but as a leader, you need tobehave in ways that show people
that you are accepting, you aresupporting and you are
welcoming, regardless of views,beliefs, etc. Yeah.
Erica D'Eramo (18:08):
I mean, when you were mentioning that the role of
the leader is no longer reallyto just tell people what to do,
but rather to tap into thewisdom and knowledge that
they're bringing and and thefact that the wisdom and
knowledge of the newer folks inthe younger generations coming
in is so vastly different andoutside the even sphere of
expertise of the leaders, itfeels even more important to be
(18:32):
able to gain access to thoseinsights and play that role of,
I don't know, tapping in to thewisdom.
Sarah Scala (18:42):
Yep, yep. And I feel like leaders who don't
build a culture where peoplewant to be there, they're gonna
miss out. People are much lesswilling to innovate, to try new
things and to be vulnerable,which are key recipes for
success if they don't feelincluded. So if I'm a leader and
(19:07):
I'm not helping everyone on myteam feel like they belong, I am
crushing the potential, not onlyfor that employee, but also for
me and my team, because I can'tget exposure to their
awesomeness if they don't feelsafe sharing ideas, debating,
speaking up. So it's all, it'sall pretty, pretty interweaved.
(19:30):
The way you treat people willdetermine how much they are
willing to give. Yeah,
Erica D'Eramo (19:38):
and I think that we're seeing especially in
today's competitive environment,that these innovative companies
that can really adapt quicklywith agility, can respond to
global shifts in the economy,global shifts in the supply
chain, global shifts intechnology. They are the ones
(19:59):
that are. Position to be able tostay the course
Sarah Scala (20:04):
Absolutely, and turnovers happening faster and
faster. When I was growing upand was much younger, people
stayed at the same company,1020, 30, sometimes 50 years
today, we're lucky to get three,and if we can build an
environment and a culture andleadership where people feel
(20:26):
welcomed, it's even less.
Erica D'Eramo (20:29):
Yeah, so what would you say kind of the key,
the key insights for ourlisteners who will maybe they're
driving to work right now, ormaybe they're listening as
they're on their elliptical,when they kind of turn turn that
off, turn the ignition off, orstep away from their elliptical.
What are the key insights youwant them to retain and the key
(20:51):
takeaways?
Sarah Scala (20:53):
The leadership journey is never over, that the
sooner that we realize we haveto constantly be learning and
developing not only ourselves,but others. That's mission
critical, and the more of aninclusive and belonging team and
culture we can support andbuild, the better we're gonna
be, and the better our bottomline will be for business. Now,
(21:15):
you're not expected to beperfect, right? We're gonna
learn. We're gonna take twosteps forward and one step back.
And if we are willing to give ita try, to constantly build our
leadership, to constantly try tobe inclusive, it can only get
better.
Erica D'Eramo (21:33):
Yeah, so for the folks that that really resonated
with, how would they find you?
How would they come work withyou? If they if they like what
they hear and they want to bringyou in to do some work.
Sarah Scala (21:44):
Excellent. Well, my website is sarahscala.com I
believe a link to that will bein the show notes. I'm also on
LinkedIn. So I love connectingwith different people. I also
have a newsletter that you cansubscribe to once a month, I
send out a free newsletter, Iwrite blogs, and I try to speak
(22:06):
at a lot of public events, sodefinitely reach out if I could
help support you or yourorganization, it'd be great.
Erica D'Eramo (22:14):
Yeah. So we will indeed have those links in our
show notes, and for anyonelistening who would love a
summary of this chat, you canfind that on the two peers
website, along with a fulltranscript as well. So thank you
so much, Sarah, for coming on,sharing your insights, having us
think a little bit about thisand for doing this important
(22:37):
work.
Sarah Scala (22:38):
Thank you so much.
Erica D'Eramo (22:40):
Yeah, and for our listeners, we look forward to
catching you next episode.
Hello and welcome to the Two Piers podcast. I'm
your host, Erica D'Eramo andtoday we have guest Sarah Scala
joining us. Sarah is the founderof Sarah Scala Consulting, a
certified woman owned and LGBTbusiness enterprise that
provides organization andleadership development,
executive coaching, LGBTQ+leadership coaching, public
(00:36):
speaking facilitation and teamdevelopment solutions, serving
as a consultant, coach andeducator, her work transforms
the performance of leaders andteams, helping them to reach
their highest potential.
(00:59):
Hi, Sarah, thanks so much forjoining us today.
Sarah Scala (01:01):
Thank you, Erica for having me.
Erica D'Eramo (01:04):
So tell us a little bit about your origin
story, kind of what? What's thestory of Sarah?
Sarah Scala (01:11):
Well, the story of Sarah is that Sarah has been
supporting team and leadershipdevelopment now for over 25
years. There's a blog I wrotecalled how I got here. I'm sure
there'll be a link in yourfootnotes. But in high school,
we were able to do projectadventure team building, playing
(01:32):
on ropes courses and climbing.
And I went to college andstudied Adventure Recreation so
that I could be able tofacilitate and lead corporate
team building programs in theoutdoors. Since my you know,
career has evolved it now Ispend a pinch less time in the
outdoors doing team developmentand a lot more time doing
(01:53):
speaking, coaching, teamcoaching and leadership
development. But when I have anytime off, I'm right outside
biking and kayaking, so that'ssort of my origin, and I've been
fortunate to work in this fieldof team and leadership
development now for close to 25years.
Erica D'Eramo (02:16):
Yeah, wow, that's awesome. So what drew you to
this work that you're doing now,and maybe, maybe describe a
little bit about what thatmeans, what that you know, the
team and leadership development,what? What do you what? What
kind of work does that involve?
Sarah Scala (02:30):
Yeah, so with leadership development,
sometimes it's coaching CEOs andleaders of teams. Sometimes it's
coaching entire teams, soproviding leadership coaching to
intact teams. Sometimes clientswill bring me in because they're
having an off site or a retreat,and they want to have some of
(02:50):
their retreat to beexperientialized, meaning that
not necessarily we have to playoutside, although sometimes we
do, but giving the teams reallife opportunities to work
through challenges so that theycan keep learning and growing. I
also do a lot of work with teamson assessments. So whether it's
(03:13):
360 assessments for leaders, orassessments about wants and
needs or styles and approaches,and those tools have been really
helpful for building awarenesswith teams as well. So
Erica D'Eramo (03:29):
you mentioned, kind of starting out in this
outdoor environment and thenshifting more into the indoors
or inside the, you know, the Csuite or inside the conference
room. What? What brought thatkind of transition about for
you?
Sarah Scala (03:45):
Great question. So that transition came when I was
in my late 20s, early 30s. Iwent back to college and got a
master's degree in adultlearning and in organization
development so that I could domore corporate boardroom
ballroom type of design of thesetypes of programs so that that,
(04:10):
I think, was certainly a pivotpoint for moving from
predominantly outdoor basedexperiential learning to more
indoor based experientiallearning, leadership development
and again, assessments tosupport that.
Erica D'Eramo (04:27):
So after you got your masters, then what drew you
to this work, this type of work,that felt important to you?
Sarah Scala (04:35):
I have felt for a long time that leaders and their
teams need constant focus andconstant development. It's nice
to say you went to school andyou studied something, or you
have a degree, or you now have,you know, a PhD, or you're a
doctor, or you're a lawyer, forexample, that doesn't stop the
(04:57):
learning. And so the importanceof lifelong learning. Learning,
lifelong leadership development,having a growth mindset. Looking
at Carol Dweck work on mindsetsis really important, I think,
especially today. I mean, lookhow fast things are changing. We
have AI in the workplace. Wehave robots more involved in
(05:17):
manufacturing and in fast food,and so the people's roles in
organizations are going tocontinue to shift and change,
and I don't see that slowingdown. So my role to support
leaders and their evolution oftheir learning, of their
development of their awarenessis always going to be important
(05:39):
and needed?
Erica D'Eramo (05:41):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean, especially
as the role of the leader, likeyou said, shifts and changes. So
when you kind of meet withleaders or organizations, what
are some of the key challengesthat you come across that you
help these leaders andorganizations to overcome?
Sarah Scala (06:00):
Sometimes it's conflict. It's not surprising to
have members of teams that maynot see things the same way.
Many times it's awareness ofthings like strengths or styles,
and often it's about clarityaround expectations and roles. I
(06:20):
think many people think, Oh, welook at the team and they have
all these titles, but there's alot of overlap that can and
sometimes happens. There'ssometimes stepping on toes, and
there's sometimes a lack ofappreciation and thanks for each
other, for the members of theteam and for the leader. And so
those are some thoughts aroundthat.
Erica D'Eramo (06:41):
Yeah, so what's, what's something, what's a
struggle that you witness,particularly with your insight
as an LGBTQ+ leader and someonekind of leading the way in that
realm?
Sarah Scala (06:55):
Yep, it very much depends on the leader's
perception of inclusion andbelonging and their view of the
importance some leaders may say,Oh, I'm not about this dei
stuff. We hire people. People dothe job. People go home to their
families, their at home life isseparate from their at work
(07:18):
life. However, many of myclients that are increasingly
more and more successful havebecome very aware and willing to
learn about how to make theirworkplaces more inclusive, so
that all employees feel likethey can belong. One example,
(07:40):
you know, one of my clients,this was a few years ago, but
their doors to their facilitiesdid not have handicap accessible
buttons to get in, so anyonethat had mobility issues getting
to work was an issue for otherclients, they may or may not
(08:02):
have policies that supportdifferent orientations and
different needs. And so again,working with the company to say,
hey, here's some things we coulddo. What are you comfortable
doing? And so having thoseconversations being the third
party or being the outsider hasbeen really helpful, and not
(08:25):
every business sees these areasthe same, so helping them to see
how can some of these smallchanges impact their bottom line
of their business. And I know,you know, some people might
think, well putting feminine orhygiene products in all
restrooms. Doesn't really make abig deal on the bottom line, or
(08:46):
having same sex benefits orhaving handicap accessible
doors, but they would beincredibly wrong based on
studies. One example is from acensure that showed the
perception of inclusion from theleader to the employee, having a
gap of close to 20% and thecost, the opportunity cost, to a
(09:09):
US business, is 1.0 5t trilliondollars, so it absolutely
impacts a business's bottomline, how inclusive we can make
our workplaces, it's prettycritical. I don't know about
you, but most business leaders,when they hear the word
trillion, it causes them topause and think about that. It's
(09:32):
not a nice to have. It's a musthave.
Erica D'Eramo (09:36):
Yeah. I mean, how, based on your insight and
your experience, how do you seethat linkage playing out like,
what? What are the benefits ofan inclusive work environment,
where there's a high sense ofbelonging?
Sarah Scala (09:50):
So it's been very interesting, especially
recently, over the past sixmonths, where you have major
Fortune 50 companies who havesaid we are no longer doing.
Dei, and that's what ends up inthe newspaper, but the majority
of companies is still fundingand investing money in
strategies to support inclusionand belonging. And how do I see
(10:12):
that working out? Quite simply,people don't want to apply to
organizations where they're notinclusive, especially Gen Z. Gen
Z, I think 85 or 86% ofemployees at Gen Z, regardless
of their differences, will notapply to or work for a company
that is not perceived to beinclusive. 85% quite a big
(10:37):
amount of potential talent thatdoesn't even want to look at
your job postings or meet withyour recruiters. So there's the
talent acquisition piece, butthen there's a huge retention
piece, right? If we hang up thesigns and you know the rainbow
flags and Black Lives Matter andall of the other quote,
(10:57):
inclusive paraphernalia, butthen you get to the workplace,
and in fact, it's not safe, itdoesn't feel inclusive, and I
don't feel like I belong. I'mout, and I'm out within six
months to a year. So if you're abusiness owner or a leader, you
know how much time and money itcosts to bring in great talent.
(11:18):
A great way to keep the greattalent that you're bringing in
is to have a culture, haveguidelines, have rules that are
supporting belonging andinclusion, whether you're a
leader at the C suite, whetheryou're mid level, or whether
you're a new employee.
Erica D'Eramo (11:36):
Yeah. Do you tend to work with clients that
already see the value in thiswork, or do you end up
encountering clients that arehesitant about the value of this
work?
Sarah Scala (11:49):
Yep, great question. And I work with
clients on all ends of thatspectrum. I've had clients who
have said, Ah. So I've noticedthat dei is a topic keeps coming
up in my business journals.
We're not doing anything tosupport that. And this is 2220
2220 20. Can you help us? Andthen I have other clients,
(12:11):
major, you know, fortune, 100companies, who will call and
say, Hey, we've been doingemployee resource groups and
have a really robust GlobalInclusion and belonging program.
Can you speak at our Women'sHistory Month or our pride
event, or, you know, able andallies during Disability
Awareness Month? Can you help usin that way? And so I appreciate
(12:35):
the diversity in what clientsneed, it's never the same exact
story. And so that's fun,because it always keeps me on my
toes.
Erica D'Eramo (12:49):
Yeah, absolutely.
So what would you say you'remost excited about in in the
future of kind of leadershipthat you're seeing?
Sarah Scala (13:00):
Yeah, yeah. So I think, you know, the United
States of America may or may notgo through some shifts in the
next, you know, one to fouryears. We don't know, but it's
interesting, because as the morerecent, movement against dei has
been happening over the pastcouple of years, my business
(13:24):
demand in that specific area hasgone up, up, up. So it's hard to
know what is going to berequested businesses that are
serious about long terminclusion and belonging see the
value in investing in eitherconsulting to support that,
(13:45):
speaking around it, coaching tosupport it, leadership
development. So it's not my jobto convince a leadership team to
do this work. They have to sortof have that feeling that, you
know, curiosity around it, ordesire to give it a try or to do
it. But you'd be surprised howmany major organizations are
(14:08):
still coming out, asking andfiercely moving forward
leadership development wise, Ithink that's gonna obviously
keep expanding, simply becausethe world keeps changing and so
helping to meet leaders wherethey're at and where they're
going is going to repeatedly bea need.
Erica D'Eramo (14:29):
Yeah, where do you think leaders are really
struggling with this? I mean, itis a brave new world, kind of
and like you said, things arechanging really quickly. So
where do you see the major painpoints for leaders being yep,
Sarah Scala (14:43):
I would say, over the past five to seven years,
the difficulties I've seen withseasoned leaders have been their
acknowledgement or awarenessthat they're no longer going to
have every answer. They're goingto hire people who are sometimes
younger than. In them smarterthan them, more experienced than
them, and so their role as aleader is no no longer tell
(15:07):
someone what to do. It's aboutguiding and supporting direct
reports or those they lead tocontinue to elevate their
performance. So it's been apretty major shift that I'm
seeing that I don't see slowingdown, especially, you know, you
have all these younger peoplethat are graduating programs,
(15:29):
that are studying AI anddifferent types of engineering
and different ways of doingthings. And of course, they're
going to know different thingsthan you do, maybe as a 20, 30,
40, year old professional andleader, because they've just
recently been exposed to thesenew methods, tools and
(15:51):
technologies.
Erica D'Eramo (15:52):
Yeah, which feels like that might be a perennial
challenge for leaders, you know,like the Technology is always
changing. I guess that was thecase in the 1800s as well. But
the pace and the the structurehas changed as well. Like what
that means has changed.
Sarah Scala (16:13):
Yep, I see many organizations doing reverse
mentoring or peer mentoring,where you have very senior level
folks partnered with entry levelpeople because they know
different things. They have verydifferent skills, and it can be
reciprocal, as opposedhistorically, to mentor
programs, which I also build anddesign for companies where it
(16:36):
typically was the seniorexperienced person mentoring the
person who was newer. So I'veseen that as a major shift as
well.
Erica D'Eramo (16:46):
Yeah. So in terms of these challenges when you
were talking through it, I can'thelp but think about the
connection between inclusion andbelonging when the role of the
leader has shifted. So how doyou see those relating?
Sarah Scala (17:01):
So let me make sure I understand your question
inclusion and belonging and theshifting role of the leader.
Well, at the end of the day,people aren't going to stay or
do their best work in placesthat they don't feel accepted
and like they belong. Whetherthis is, you know, 1850, or
2040, in years, people aren'tgoing to want to stay where they
(17:23):
don't feel good about who theyare, the work that they're
doing, the contributions thatthey're making, and that they're
accepted. And so I think it'sgoing to be a challenge to
retain great talent. I see thatchallenge as increasing more and
more. If as a leader, you arenot providing a psychologically
(17:45):
safe work environment for yourteam, and if you're not
supporting inclusion, and youdon't have to love everybody,
but as a leader, you need tobehave in ways that show people
that you are accepting, you aresupporting and you are
welcoming, regardless of views,beliefs, etc. Yeah.
Erica D'Eramo (18:08):
I mean, when you were mentioning that the role of
the leader is no longer reallyto just tell people what to do,
but rather to tap into thewisdom and knowledge that
they're bringing and and thefact that the wisdom and
knowledge of the newer folks inthe younger generations coming
in is so vastly different andoutside the even sphere of
expertise of the leaders, itfeels even more important to be
(18:32):
able to gain access to thoseinsights and play that role of,
I don't know, tapping in to thewisdom.
Sarah Scala (18:42):
Yep, yep. And I feel like leaders who don't
build a culture where peoplewant to be there, they're gonna
miss out. People are much lesswilling to innovate, to try new
things and to be vulnerable,which are key recipes for
success if they don't feelincluded. So if I'm a leader and
(19:07):
I'm not helping everyone on myteam feel like they belong, I am
crushing the potential, not onlyfor that employee, but also for
me and my team, because I can'tget exposure to their
awesomeness if they don't feelsafe sharing ideas, debating,
speaking up. So it's all, it'sall pretty, pretty interweaved.
(19:30):
The way you treat people willdetermine how much they are
willing to give. Yeah,
Erica D'Eramo (19:38):
and I think that we're seeing especially in
today's competitive environment,that these innovative companies
that can really adapt quicklywith agility, can respond to
global shifts in the economy,global shifts in the supply
chain, global shifts intechnology. They are the ones
(19:59):
that are. Position to be able tostay the course
Sarah Scala (20:04):
Absolutely, and turnovers happening faster and
faster. When I was growing upand was much younger, people
stayed at the same company,1020, 30, sometimes 50 years
today, we're lucky to get three,and if we can build an
environment and a culture andleadership where people feel
(20:26):
welcomed, it's even less.
Erica D'Eramo (20:29):
Yeah, so what would you say kind of the key,
the key insights for ourlisteners who will maybe they're
driving to work right now, ormaybe they're listening as
they're on their elliptical,when they kind of turn turn that
off, turn the ignition off, orstep away from their elliptical.
What are the key insights youwant them to retain and the key
(20:51):
takeaways?
Sarah Scala (20:53):
The leadership journey is never over, that the
sooner that we realize we haveto constantly be learning and
developing not only ourselves,but others. That's mission
critical, and the more of aninclusive and belonging team and
culture we can support andbuild, the better we're gonna
be, and the better our bottomline will be for business. Now,
(21:15):
you're not expected to beperfect, right? We're gonna
learn. We're gonna take twosteps forward and one step back.
And if we are willing to give ita try, to constantly build our
leadership, to constantly try tobe inclusive, it can only get
better.
Erica D'Eramo (21:33):
Yeah, so for the folks that that really resonated
with, how would they find you?
How would they come work withyou? If they if they like what
they hear and they want to bringyou in to do some work.
Sarah Scala (21:44):
Excellent. Well, my website is sarahscala.com I
believe a link to that will bein the show notes. I'm also on
LinkedIn. So I love connectingwith different people. I also
have a newsletter that you cansubscribe to once a month, I
send out a free newsletter, Iwrite blogs, and I try to speak
(22:06):
at a lot of public events, sodefinitely reach out if I could
help support you or yourorganization, it'd be great.
Erica D'Eramo (22:14):
Yeah. So we will indeed have those links in our
show notes, and for anyonelistening who would love a
summary of this chat, you canfind that on the two peers
website, along with a fulltranscript as well. So thank you
so much, Sarah, for coming on,sharing your insights, having us
think a little bit about thisand for doing this important
(22:37):
work.
Sarah Scala (22:38):
Thank you so much.
Erica D'Eramo (22:40):
Yeah, and for our listeners, we look forward to
catching you next episode.
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