August 21, 2025 • 32 mins
Episode Description:
In this episode of the Two Piers Podcast, host Erica D’Eramo is joined by Dr. Anthony Luévanos—an expert in leadership, coaching, and organizational development—to explore the powerful role of systems thinking in today’s complex work environments.
Together, they unpack what systems thinking really means, how it applies across industries, and why it’s essential for leaders who want to navigate change, foster collaboration, and drive meaningful results. From emotional intelligence to adaptive leadership, this conversation connects technical problem-solving with human-centered leadership in a compelling, practical way.
Whether you're leading a team, coaching executives, or rethinking your approach to organizational growth, this episode offers insight into how to see the bigger picture—and act with greater impact.
Topics covered include:
- What systems thinking is and how it applies to leadership
- Root causes vs. surface-level symptoms in problem-solving
- The intersection of coaching, engineering, and organizational development
- Emotional intelligence as a leadership competency
- Visualization tools like causal loop diagrams and mind maps
- Leading with adaptability in unpredictable systems
- Shifting from a mindset of knowing to one of learning
Guest Bio:
Dr. Anthony Luévanos is an educator, coach, and organizational development consultant with a passion for building effective, adaptive systems. With a background spanning school leadership, academic research, and cross-sector collaboration, Dr. Luévanos brings a systems lens to leadership development, helping individuals and organizations thrive in complexity.
Resources & References:
- Peter Senge, The Fifth Discipline
- Donella Meadows, Thinking in Systems
- Toyota Lean Manufacturing Principles
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Connect with Us:
Learn more about Two Piers Consulting at www.twopiersconsulting.com, and follow us on LinkedIn for updates on new episodes, articles, and events.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Erica D'Eramo (00:00):
Erica, welcome to the Two Piers Podcast. I'm your
(00:07):
host, Erica d'aremo, and todaywe're diving into systems
thinking, the lens that connectscoaching, engineering and
academia. How do complex systemsimpact leadership? What role
does coaching play in helpingpeople navigate those systems,
and how can a structured yetadaptive approach drive
innovation and excellence. Sojoining me today is our favorite
(00:28):
guest, Dr Anthony Lu vanos, anexpert in leadership and
organizational development,human systems dynamics and group
effectiveness and strategy.
Together, we'll explore howsystems thinking isn't just a
framework, it's a game changerin leadership productivity and
personal success. So let's jumpin.
(00:55):
Thanks for joining us. Anthony,
Unknown (00:58):
yeah, thanks, Erica, I'm excited to be here and to
explore how systems thinking cantransform leadership and
decision making.
Erica D'Eramo (01:06):
Yeah, this is a topic I was so excited to talk
to you about, because I thinkthat you and I come from just
such different perspectives,different kind of academic paths
and and career paths and livedexperience that this is a really
interesting intersection of ourworlds and our studies. And so,
(01:28):
yeah, I'm really excited to talkabout it with you, like the
engineer in me is really excitedto talk to you about it. And
this is, I know, an area thatyou when I when I added that
description of what I consideryou an expert in you've got,
like, the street cred and thecredentials to really back it
up. So So yeah, thanks forcoming on and sharing your
(01:51):
perspective. I love having youas a part of the team, for sure.
Appreciate it. Yeah. So tell itfor folks who haven't heard the
DR Levin Oh story. Tell us alittle bit about yourself, and
you know, like you as a humanand what brought you to this
Unknown (02:05):
work. Well, I started out as a as a school
administrator, and so I wentpretty deep into how to run
organizations, how to developleaders. You know, from the
basic building blocks of oursystems to kind of the
(02:28):
interaction between systems. Andso I started out as a teacher,
then went into administrationand and then went into kind of
the larger scope of theorganization and how each of
those components operate withit, with each other, to get the
job done at the end of the day,which is to produce these
wonderful people for society,and for them to function in
(02:51):
society. And then my vision wastaken or my work took me from
how those organizations operateto kind of how the larger system
of society operates and how weinteract with each other and
provide those opportunities totransform what we have and to
(03:13):
make decisions based on the kindof the total scope of what we
represent.
Erica D'Eramo (03:20):
Yeah, yeah.
People ask me all the time,like, how did, how did you go
from being an engineer to acoach? That seems like a really
big leap, but I laugh, becauseit's really all just about
problem solving and asking, youknow, like, what is the problem
we're actually trying to solvehere? And so as you were talking
through that, it just made methink how so often one of the
most powerful questions we canask as coaches is like, what do
(03:42):
we what are we actually tryingto do here? And then let's, you
know, let's take it back a step.
And I think that's where there'sprobably a lot of commonality
between organizationaldevelopment consultants and and
leadership coaches andengineers, right?
Unknown (03:59):
Oh, for sure, yeah, lots of common ground there. I
think Systems Thinking isusually thought of from an
engineering point of view, andit's it has, it encompasses more
than what engineers do. So it'snot just for engineers, but for
(04:22):
organizational leaders ingeneral, and looking at the
greater scope of what isinvolved with the individual
components of organizations, andthinking about how these
components and organizationsinteract and relate to each
other,
Erica D'Eramo (04:41):
yeah. So tell us a little bit about like, you
know, we've kind of gotten thehighlight. But when you think
about systems thinking, how doyou how do you define that?
Unknown (04:53):
Yeah, so essentially, systems thinking is
understanding how thesedifferent parts of a system
interact with one. Another. Andso rather than focusing on
isolated components from asiloed approach, it's about
recognizing patterns feedbackloops and long term
consequences, instead of justshort term fixes. And so in
(05:13):
leadership, this means movingbeyond that linear problem
solving model where you addresssymptoms towards tackling root
causes by looking at the biggerpicture. So whether in your
you're in business, healthcare,education, engineering,
Assistant, systems thinkinghelps leaders to navigate the
(05:35):
complexity with a holisticmindset.
Erica D'Eramo (05:40):
So how, when you think about how this applies
across, kind of our differentrealms of coaching, engineering,
academia, what what comes tomind?
Unknown (05:53):
Absolutely. So one example that comes to mind is
what I've read just kind oftangentially with Lee Iacocca,
but more specifically withToyota's, like lean factoring,
lean manufacturing approach.
They didn't just optimizeindividual processes. They
(06:17):
looked at the entire scope, theentire production system,
identifying bottlenecks, waste,inefficiencies, and so by them
addressing the systemic issues,rather than taking an isolated
approach or a solid approach,they're able to identify
isolated or dramatically improvetheir efficiency and produce
(06:37):
great products and reduce costsoverall. They're able to look at
these blind spots and enhancequality. And in my own field,
you know, I was able to look atthe organization as a whole,
solving systemic issues, asopposed to just addressing
(06:59):
curriculum, instruction,assessment, human resource
development, professional level,and I was able to look at how
this all interacts to create,again, these products and reduce
costs for our, for our, ourparticular organization, and
improve overall outcomes for theorganization, and really
(07:20):
transform education as a whole,as the organization, but also
transform leadership thinking,
Erica D'Eramo (07:27):
Yeah, I mean, I don't know how many times in an
engineering capacity, you end upso focused on some little piece
of the system that'smalfunctioning or that you're
having to repair, and when youjust pull back and say, like,
what are we actually,ultimately, what's the what,
what is the outcome of thisprocess supposed to be? And
maybe we eliminate that piece ofthe process entirely, like,
(07:48):
maybe there's a totally betterway to get to what we're trying
to get to. And in coaching, Idon't know how. I mean, it's so
classic that you'll say, like,what's the higher order goal
here? Or to, you know, SimonSinek language of start with,
why Right? Like, why are wedoing this? And in engineering,
you might call it a five whysright. When something breaks,
you do a five whysinvestigation. Like, why did it
(08:08):
break? Okay, but why did thathappen? And then why did that
other thing happen? And you goall the way back. So it does
feel like there's a lot ofcohesiveness here between this
sort of pulling back, pullingup, and getting a broader
approach to really understand,like, what are we truly trying
to do and what's the mosteffective way to do it?
Unknown (08:27):
Yeah, and I think Peter Senge kind of highlights this in
his book, The Fifth Discipline,he's considered, kind of a guru
in that area of systemsthinking, and maybe even kind
of, if you say it in such a way,kind of the one of the fathers
of systems thinking, but he saysthe easy the easy way out
(08:51):
usually leads back in. Yeah,what you know, what that means
is that just reinforces the ideathat avoiding complexity results
in repeating a cycle of failure.
And so you got, you've got todig, dig deeper, and, you know,
go into the fire. And so it's,it's incredibly important to
(09:11):
look at it from thatperspective.
Erica D'Eramo (09:15):
Yeah, we like classic terminology around
failure analysis, you know, rootcause failure analysis.
Sometimes I find it reallyhelpful to bring that even into
the human perspective of when westart to look at like, Why
didn't these humans do the thingwe expected them to do? And it's
so easy to just go straight to,well, they were lazy, or they
(09:38):
just don't have a good workethic, or they're just
incompetent and like, those arejust, you know, thought
terminating concepts rightthere. It doesn't bring you any
further to actually ensuringthat it doesn't happen again.
Um, so taking it back to kind ofthat root cause failure. And I
was like, what did we have? Thewere the expectations clear? Did
(09:59):
we have the. Processes in place?
Do we have the resources thatfolks needed, and just really
understanding from a moresystems perspective, what went
wrong? Because, like you said,if you just fix that one thing,
if you just reprimand that oneperson, that one time, I can
assure you, it's just gonnahappen again,
Unknown (10:17):
right? Exactly? Yeah.
Erica D'Eramo (10:20):
So when you when you think about what makes
coaching essential, especiallyfor leaders navigating some of
this complexity that youmentioned, like, what are your
thoughts?
Unknown (10:35):
Well, I think coaching is all about expanding
perspective, right? We ask thequestions. We dig a little
deeper, and leaders oftenoperate within or with mental
models that limit theirthinking. And so what we do as
coaches is coaching helps themto set step back and see the
(10:58):
interconnections they previouslyignored. And I think, for
example, instead of seeing aperformance issue as just an
individual problem, I thinkcoaching helps leaders explore
organizational culture, maybeeven communication breakdowns
and some of those systemicchallenges that they're facing.
Erica D'Eramo (11:22):
Yeah, that that role of coach. People often
think that we tell people whatto do right, that we advise them
on what they should do, whenreally what we're usually doing
is either holding up a mirror orasking these illuminating
questions that then reveal theconnections that are important
to that individual, because,like our one lived experience or
(11:45):
our our one perspective is notactually as important unless
we're coming in as a consultant,right? If you are being, if you
are being asked to come in andand lend your subject matter
expertise on something,certainly we can talk about best
practice, but that coachperspective really often just
will highlight the questionsthat we ask will often bring to
(12:05):
bear these details or contextthat, like, we wouldn't have
known because we weren't there,we weren't in the situation. So
as the coach, we wouldn't knowit. But that's not what's
important, right? It's theleader. It's the individual who
suddenly has the realizationabout, like, Oh, this is why
it's happening, right? Likethis. That's the penny drops
like you see it. Almost everycoaching session, some penny
(12:26):
drops right,
Unknown (12:27):
right. And you mentioned two things that I
think are important, and that'sreframing and visualization. And
I encourage leaders to usevisual mapping techniques like
causal loop diagrams or mindmaps to see how different
elements connect. And so I alsohelp try to help them break down
the complexity into manageablelayers. And, you know, just had
(12:49):
a conversation the other day.
So, you know, like, instead oftackling everything at once,
what we need to do is focus onkey leverage points where just
small changes can have a hugeimpact?
Erica D'Eramo (13:02):
Yeah, I think right now, especially, there's
just so much volatility in theworld. I mean, there's so much
unknown, and I think a lot ofpeople are feeling very
overwhelmed, and especiallyfolks who have a risk oriented
mindset, right? Like a riskmitigation oriented mindset,
(13:22):
which is certainly a lot ofleaders, a lot of engineering
types, but that that can be,there's so many inputs that it
can kind of overwhelm thesystem, the brain system. And so
what you mentioned really bringsme back to this concept of,
like, what options do you haveright now. Like, what are, what
(13:43):
are the levers, what are thechoices that you have available
to you right now? Because if weYes, it's great to look at the
bit the larger system. But if wereally just, like, expand too
far and don't get clear about,like, what are the options right
now, we stagnate, right we get,like, frozen or stuck. So
Unknown (14:03):
yeah, for sure. Yeah.
And I think a key aspect, and Igo over this with my leaders,
this idea of or this role ofemotional intelligence, and how
it plays a role in systemsthinking and in coaching. And so
emotional intelligence is hugein systems thinking leaders who
(14:27):
lack self awareness oftenmisinterpret the challenges that
they're facing and misinterpretor react impulsively instead of
strategically. And so empathy isalso critical. Systems aren't
just about processes, right?
(14:48):
They're about people. They'reabout understanding
stakeholders, motivations.
They're about understanding thefears, the incentives you know
that help leaders. And alsonavigate these complex systems a
little bit more effectively.
Erica D'Eramo (15:04):
Yeah, it's funny, I have a lot of folks who will
say, like, I'm I'm an engineerby background, I don't do like,
feelings or emotion or orthey'll come up to a problem and
they'll say, well, but this isthe correct solution, right? It
was like, okay, yes, it you maybe correct. That may be
factually correct. And now whatright like, and now what is most
(15:29):
effective in this situationthrough perhaps we can
sometimes, I find the lens oflike diplomacy can be helpful.
Like you might be correct here,but considering the other
stakeholders, considering whatthe ultimate goal is, what will
be most effective. And I thinkthat that that emotional
intelligence that you mentioned,the self management right
(15:50):
putting sometimes I talk aboutthe air gap between reaction and
response. So you might have anemotional reaction to something.
You might notice that yousomething elicits a reaction,
sometimes even a physicalreaction, and just giving
yourself that air gap to thendecide what your response will
(16:12):
be, keeping in mind what outcomeyou want from the situation.
Unknown (16:18):
Yeah. And I yeah, I know I brought up Peter saying
before, Peter Sangay work,before earlier in the segment,
but you know, like I tell them,you know, with the especially
with considering the emotionalintelligence aspect, it's about
relationship, right? And PeterSenge says that a shared vision
(16:40):
is not an idea. It's a force inpeople's hearts, and so it's
about relationship building. Andthis reiterate, reiterates that
connected systems thinking, youknow, to leadership, your your
or your connecting systemsthinking to leadership, to
(17:01):
culture and to motivationthrough that lens of
relationship building. And soyou've really have got to get
this awareness to self awarenessabout yourself. And I often go
through this with with leaders,and we talk about, well, what
motivates you as leader? Who areyou as a leader? By what do you
(17:24):
operate? What gets you up in themorning? And then, how can you
use that as a powerful platformto connect with others, not the
not the actual organizationitself, right? But how are these
different pieces connected toeach other where you can
establish a shared vision thatis like, like saying you says
(17:45):
not just an idea, but it becomessomething that is adopted into
the hearts of the individualswithin that organization.
Erica D'Eramo (17:55):
Yeah, that's, I mean, that's a really valuable
reflection. I think that sooften, especially when things
are contentious, or people arethere's tension within an
organization being able to getreally clear about, ultimately,
where, where are we aligned in,where we're trying to head to
(18:16):
right, like, if we can bealigned at least on the mission,
then everything else is just achallenge of the how we might
have different ideas about howwe get there, and we can partner
against the larger challenge ofaccomplishing the mission. And
we're not necessarily butting upagainst each other. We're
together on on a missiontogether. I think that that can
(18:37):
be really helpful. But again,it's about understanding your
ultimate why and the and theultimate why of the other people
that are on that mission withyou, and it might be different.
That's okay, right? It might belike, personal fulfillment. It
might be some deeper impact forsociety. It might be financial
stability, right? I just wantthe paycheck, but, like, at
least if you understand whatpeople what's bringing people to
(19:00):
the table. Um, they can be sohelp, especially with like,
stakeholder engagement,understanding that's that's like
negotiations. 101, right. It'sabout understanding what's
important to the other peoplearound you,
Unknown (19:12):
and especially you mentioned this earlier, and I
think it's important. I thinkdonnella Meadow Meadows is the
one that said it like you can'tpredict everything, but you can
prepare for the unexpected. Butthat's only possible if you're
connected to the individuals onthat level, if you are self
aware and you're connected withthe people. You know that go.
(19:34):
That goes with Peter Sangay, iswhat I mentioned about piers
saying gay again, it's a sharedvision. It's in the hearts. It
resides in the hearts ofindividuals. And I know this,
you know, it sounds touchyfeely, but again, you operate
within an organization. It has aheartbeat, you know, it up. It
responds to the market. Itresponds to the needs of those
that demand the product orservice that you're that you are
(19:57):
pitching, that you're selling,that you're putting. Out there.
And so I think Donella Meadowsis right on the money when she
says it, you know, you you canprepare for the unexpected,
because in the world that welive in now, you really can't
predict everything that's aboutto happen. And so if you, if you
encourage flexibility andadaptability in your leadership,
(20:19):
you can navigate these complexsystems with a little more ease.
Yeah.
Erica D'Eramo (20:25):
I mean, that just makes me think too about even
about strengths versusweaknesses and vulnerabilities
versus opportunities. Like so,often, folks that come from a
technical mindset will getcaught up in mitigating for all
of the potentialities,mitigating for all of the risk
(20:46):
factors, when in reality, weknow that what differentiates
us, whether that's as a human,as an individual on your career
path, or as an organization,it's what you're good at that
you stand out. It's yourstrengths that are going to
differentiate you in theworkplace, in the marketplace,
as a leader, and so gettingunderstanding what could take
(21:09):
you out right the and mitigatingfor the worst case, credible,
most likely risk scenarios,certainly worthwhile, but you'll
never mitigate for everything,right? Yeah,
Unknown (21:21):
no. And, I mean, and the technical is good, right?
You need to know your craft. Youneed to continue to hone your
craft. That's, that's certainly,that's certainly important. But
again, you can't control systemsor figure them out, but you can
dance with them, right?
Erica D'Eramo (21:34):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Oh, and you are a dancer, right?
That's right. We have that incommon? Yeah, I guess I view it
more as like to take thismetaphor a bit further more as
like a Tango or like a Kizomba,maybe even a salsa, you know,
(22:00):
where you're really having topay attention, and that feedback
loop of what's happeningbetween, you know what, what's
happening and responding. So,yeah, tell, tell us a little
well, I don't know. What do youwhat are your thoughts on that
metaphor?
Unknown (22:14):
Well, again, you can, you can understand every
technical aspect. You know, as Imentioned, whether it's an
organization or a dance, you canunderstand every technical
aspect of every, you know,dancing type or dancing
category, but eventually whatends up happening is that it's,
(22:36):
it's an artistic connectednesswith all of the complexity of
the system and understanding theheart of what that organization
is trying to do. And so youknow, you can have technical
conversations day in day out,with colleagues in your in your
(22:56):
organization. But again, it'sabout being self aware where you
are at that moment, appreciatingwhere you are at the moment. And
then when you know a change intempo is introduced, you can
quickly adapt to it. You canquickly respond to it. You lead,
(23:20):
and people will follow, as longas you can capture that heart
and connect with that person andmake sure that whatever shared
vision that you have, you knowon you know on the dance floor,
that you can partner with thatperson, because you're that
connected with those systems.
Erica D'Eramo (23:42):
Yeah, yeah, that's, you know, this is a
theme that's coming up a lotlately, is, while you can't
predict everything you'll know,and I think that this can help
with feelings of anxietysometimes, knowing that you have
met every challenge that hascome your way, you've met it one
way or another, right? You'vegotten through it, you will meet
the challenge when it comesaround. And what is important is
(24:06):
being able to build thoseadaptability muscles, that
awareness of the system, thatself awareness, that enables you
to be adaptable, that enablesyou to respond to changes, to
the unexpected, versus beingperfect in every way, or
planning for every eventualitythat you that's physically
impossible, right? Like trustingthat when the when the time
(24:28):
comes, you know you will crossthat bridge. And I've been, I've
been singing the praises ofOliver Berkman's 4000 weeks
lately. I think it reallyresonated for me. But he talks
about that a lot, that you knowwhat you'll cross that bridge
when you get to it, but knowingthat you know, just like dancing
right, when somebody doessomething that you don't expect,
(24:49):
you don't just stop on the dancefloor and be like, Well, I
didn't you know. I didn't thinkyou were gonna leave me that
way, or I didn't think you weregonna respond that way. You just
go with it. You go with theflow. You modify. Let you adapt.
You have fun. Yeah. So whatelse? What else should we be
thinking about in terms ofsystems thinking?
Unknown (25:09):
I think there are three key strategies that I can offer.
You know, folks that are,they're interested in this, you
know, to break down these siloedapproaches and foster a little
bit more caliber, you know,collaboration. And the first is
cross disciplinary projects, youknow, encourage teams from
(25:31):
different departments tocollaborate. That's always going
to be generative of new ideas,new approaches. And it's also
going to foster interactions.
And that, again, it's key tohave that connectedness between
teams, you know, and betweendepartments, to look at issues,
to look at challenges in a verydifferent way. And then the
(25:53):
second is leadershipdevelopment, I would say, equip
your people with skills beyondtheir expertise right now, the
new thing is AI, you know howto, how to couple, you know,
solutions minded or problemsolving with AI technologies, I
think, from a cross disciplinarystandpoint and a leadership
(26:18):
development standpoint, if youcan get teams to think
generatively and crossdisciplinarily, if I can say
that, I think you'll improve thecommunication and the team
building and so and then thelast lastly is, you know, shift
from those rigid disciplines,from those rigid, siloed
(26:42):
approaches, to a more integratedlearning. You know, whenever you
have whenever you have training,that would be my third and last
recommendation to reflect onreal world problem solving
within those trainings, asopposed to these kind of
(27:03):
detached training models, anddemand that from your your your
your trainers, don't waste yourmoney, you know, on these kind
of out of the box approaches.
You have to challenge the folksthat come into your organization
to think on your terms, toaccommodate and to tailor
(27:29):
trainings, you know, for yourorganization. I just heard a
story just recently about atrainer that came in and had
some out of the box or not outof the box, but boxed, I should
say, box training model, andcompletely lost three fourths of
(27:52):
the group. And I thought, well,let me think about this for a
second. You just paid someone tocome train you, and then you
spent money because it wasduring that work day you spent
money, hourly money, salariedmoney, whatever you want to
whoever was in there to listento this person tell you how to
(28:12):
do your job better. And thisinformation that you covered
wasn't even relatable, and youcouldn't even take back, not
even half, not even, I think,not even a quarter of what they
were trying to convey to youback into your real world of
challenges that you're facing.
So like I said, don't waste yourmoney. Have make sure that it is
(28:34):
centered on the organizationalexperience and even on the
individual experience. And ifyou're going to use these cross
disciplinary approaches, makesure that the folks that are
coming into your organizationunderstand what you're doing
before they even step foot.
(28:55):
Don't waste your money, don'twaste your time, and be sure
that people that come in, thatare coming to you again, are
connected with the work that youare doing.
Erica D'Eramo (29:03):
You know, I do love you highlighting that
because so often, I mean, at TwoPiers, we offer coaching and
consulting, and I actually youwould think, well, it's my time.
I'm gonna charge it the sameway. I charge a lot more for the
consulting than I do for thecoaching, because, ironically, I
(29:24):
want to incentivize the coachingelement, or at least open
facilitation, because I thinkit's so much more effective for
organizations to have somebodycome in and ask a lot of
questions and tap in, which isreally a coaching model. And I'm
not saying that there isn't atime and place for the
consultant role of doing abaseline assessment, giving best
(29:45):
practices, helping to devise astrategy, for sure, but it's
particularly effective when it'scombined with leadership
coaching, so that you'retackling the root causes of
things that you're reallygetting under that and equipping
people with the skills. Toimplement these strategies going
forward, and it doesn't just siton a shelf somewhere and that
(30:06):
you're really under uncoveringwhat the true unique situation
in context is for thatorganization. So yeah, like
facilitation and coaching, Ichart like we charge less for
that, because I want toincentivize it, because I think
it's so much more effective. Andyes, there again, there is a
time and a place for us tocreate a work product and and
(30:28):
provide that to the client. Butwhen done alone, I think you end
up with this, like, you know,out of the box, off the shelf
type of structure that's justnot going to be custom tailored,
so and not, not going to be froma systems design approach. Yes,
to bring it full circle forsure. Yeah. So what? Um, what
(30:52):
are your What are your closingthoughts? To wrap up today's
conversation,
Unknown (30:58):
um, I think, just to kind of offer a tease for those
that are listening or watching,I think the there has to be a
mindset, a mindset shift thatthat that has to take place as
(31:20):
you Become a, you know, just abetter leader or a problem
solver, and I think that'smoving from knowing to learning.
The best leaders aren't the oneswith all the answers. They're
the ones who ask the bestquestions and keep learning.
Erica D'Eramo (31:35):
Yeah, right, and asking the questions about the
larger systems, right? Thelarger why the not just getting
into the the immediate fix? Yes.
Well, thank you, Anthony Drlevinos, I really appreciate
your insights and having youjoin us again. Like I said,
you're, you know, our favorite,I think most, most tenured
(31:56):
guest. So great to have anotherepisode in the books with you.
And for anyone listening thatwould love a summary of this,
you can find that on our websitealong with the transcript, if
you prefer to read it or lookthrough the transcript, and we
appreciate having you on and welook forward to our listeners
joining us for the next episode.
(32:18):
You
Erica, welcome to the Two Piers Podcast. I'm your
(00:07):
host, Erica d'aremo, and todaywe're diving into systems
thinking, the lens that connectscoaching, engineering and
academia. How do complex systemsimpact leadership? What role
does coaching play in helpingpeople navigate those systems,
and how can a structured yetadaptive approach drive
innovation and excellence. Sojoining me today is our favorite
(00:28):
guest, Dr Anthony Lu vanos, anexpert in leadership and
organizational development,human systems dynamics and group
effectiveness and strategy.
Together, we'll explore howsystems thinking isn't just a
framework, it's a game changerin leadership productivity and
personal success. So let's jumpin.
(00:55):
Thanks for joining us. Anthony,
Unknown (00:58):
yeah, thanks, Erica, I'm excited to be here and to
explore how systems thinking cantransform leadership and
decision making.
Erica D'Eramo (01:06):
Yeah, this is a topic I was so excited to talk
to you about, because I thinkthat you and I come from just
such different perspectives,different kind of academic paths
and and career paths and livedexperience that this is a really
interesting intersection of ourworlds and our studies. And so,
(01:28):
yeah, I'm really excited to talkabout it with you, like the
engineer in me is really excitedto talk to you about it. And
this is, I know, an area thatyou when I when I added that
description of what I consideryou an expert in you've got,
like, the street cred and thecredentials to really back it
up. So So yeah, thanks forcoming on and sharing your
(01:51):
perspective. I love having youas a part of the team, for sure.
Appreciate it. Yeah. So tell itfor folks who haven't heard the
DR Levin Oh story. Tell us alittle bit about yourself, and
you know, like you as a humanand what brought you to this
Unknown (02:05):
work. Well, I started out as a as a school
administrator, and so I wentpretty deep into how to run
organizations, how to developleaders. You know, from the
basic building blocks of oursystems to kind of the
(02:28):
interaction between systems. Andso I started out as a teacher,
then went into administrationand and then went into kind of
the larger scope of theorganization and how each of
those components operate withit, with each other, to get the
job done at the end of the day,which is to produce these
wonderful people for society,and for them to function in
(02:51):
society. And then my vision wastaken or my work took me from
how those organizations operateto kind of how the larger system
of society operates and how weinteract with each other and
provide those opportunities totransform what we have and to
(03:13):
make decisions based on the kindof the total scope of what we
represent.
Erica D'Eramo (03:20):
Yeah, yeah.
People ask me all the time,like, how did, how did you go
from being an engineer to acoach? That seems like a really
big leap, but I laugh, becauseit's really all just about
problem solving and asking, youknow, like, what is the problem
we're actually trying to solvehere? And so as you were talking
through that, it just made methink how so often one of the
most powerful questions we canask as coaches is like, what do
(03:42):
we what are we actually tryingto do here? And then let's, you
know, let's take it back a step.
And I think that's where there'sprobably a lot of commonality
between organizationaldevelopment consultants and and
leadership coaches andengineers, right?
Unknown (03:59):
Oh, for sure, yeah, lots of common ground there. I
think Systems Thinking isusually thought of from an
engineering point of view, andit's it has, it encompasses more
than what engineers do. So it'snot just for engineers, but for
(04:22):
organizational leaders ingeneral, and looking at the
greater scope of what isinvolved with the individual
components of organizations, andthinking about how these
components and organizationsinteract and relate to each
other,
Erica D'Eramo (04:41):
yeah. So tell us a little bit about like, you
know, we've kind of gotten thehighlight. But when you think
about systems thinking, how doyou how do you define that?
Unknown (04:53):
Yeah, so essentially, systems thinking is
understanding how thesedifferent parts of a system
interact with one. Another. Andso rather than focusing on
isolated components from asiloed approach, it's about
recognizing patterns feedbackloops and long term
consequences, instead of justshort term fixes. And so in
(05:13):
leadership, this means movingbeyond that linear problem
solving model where you addresssymptoms towards tackling root
causes by looking at the biggerpicture. So whether in your
you're in business, healthcare,education, engineering,
Assistant, systems thinkinghelps leaders to navigate the
(05:35):
complexity with a holisticmindset.
Erica D'Eramo (05:40):
So how, when you think about how this applies
across, kind of our differentrealms of coaching, engineering,
academia, what what comes tomind?
Unknown (05:53):
Absolutely. So one example that comes to mind is
what I've read just kind oftangentially with Lee Iacocca,
but more specifically withToyota's, like lean factoring,
lean manufacturing approach.
They didn't just optimizeindividual processes. They
(06:17):
looked at the entire scope, theentire production system,
identifying bottlenecks, waste,inefficiencies, and so by them
addressing the systemic issues,rather than taking an isolated
approach or a solid approach,they're able to identify
isolated or dramatically improvetheir efficiency and produce
(06:37):
great products and reduce costsoverall. They're able to look at
these blind spots and enhancequality. And in my own field,
you know, I was able to look atthe organization as a whole,
solving systemic issues, asopposed to just addressing
(06:59):
curriculum, instruction,assessment, human resource
development, professional level,and I was able to look at how
this all interacts to create,again, these products and reduce
costs for our, for our, ourparticular organization, and
improve overall outcomes for theorganization, and really
(07:20):
transform education as a whole,as the organization, but also
transform leadership thinking,
Erica D'Eramo (07:27):
Yeah, I mean, I don't know how many times in an
engineering capacity, you end upso focused on some little piece
of the system that'smalfunctioning or that you're
having to repair, and when youjust pull back and say, like,
what are we actually,ultimately, what's the what,
what is the outcome of thisprocess supposed to be? And
maybe we eliminate that piece ofthe process entirely, like,
(07:48):
maybe there's a totally betterway to get to what we're trying
to get to. And in coaching, Idon't know how. I mean, it's so
classic that you'll say, like,what's the higher order goal
here? Or to, you know, SimonSinek language of start with,
why Right? Like, why are wedoing this? And in engineering,
you might call it a five whysright. When something breaks,
you do a five whysinvestigation. Like, why did it
(08:08):
break? Okay, but why did thathappen? And then why did that
other thing happen? And you goall the way back. So it does
feel like there's a lot ofcohesiveness here between this
sort of pulling back, pullingup, and getting a broader
approach to really understand,like, what are we truly trying
to do and what's the mosteffective way to do it?
Unknown (08:27):
Yeah, and I think Peter Senge kind of highlights this in
his book, The Fifth Discipline,he's considered, kind of a guru
in that area of systemsthinking, and maybe even kind
of, if you say it in such a way,kind of the one of the fathers
of systems thinking, but he saysthe easy the easy way out
(08:51):
usually leads back in. Yeah,what you know, what that means
is that just reinforces the ideathat avoiding complexity results
in repeating a cycle of failure.
And so you got, you've got todig, dig deeper, and, you know,
go into the fire. And so it's,it's incredibly important to
(09:11):
look at it from thatperspective.
Erica D'Eramo (09:15):
Yeah, we like classic terminology around
failure analysis, you know, rootcause failure analysis.
Sometimes I find it reallyhelpful to bring that even into
the human perspective of when westart to look at like, Why
didn't these humans do the thingwe expected them to do? And it's
so easy to just go straight to,well, they were lazy, or they
(09:38):
just don't have a good workethic, or they're just
incompetent and like, those arejust, you know, thought
terminating concepts rightthere. It doesn't bring you any
further to actually ensuringthat it doesn't happen again.
Um, so taking it back to kind ofthat root cause failure. And I
was like, what did we have? Thewere the expectations clear? Did
(09:59):
we have the. Processes in place?
Do we have the resources thatfolks needed, and just really
understanding from a moresystems perspective, what went
wrong? Because, like you said,if you just fix that one thing,
if you just reprimand that oneperson, that one time, I can
assure you, it's just gonnahappen again,
Unknown (10:17):
right? Exactly? Yeah.
Erica D'Eramo (10:20):
So when you when you think about what makes
coaching essential, especiallyfor leaders navigating some of
this complexity that youmentioned, like, what are your
thoughts?
Unknown (10:35):
Well, I think coaching is all about expanding
perspective, right? We ask thequestions. We dig a little
deeper, and leaders oftenoperate within or with mental
models that limit theirthinking. And so what we do as
coaches is coaching helps themto set step back and see the
(10:58):
interconnections they previouslyignored. And I think, for
example, instead of seeing aperformance issue as just an
individual problem, I thinkcoaching helps leaders explore
organizational culture, maybeeven communication breakdowns
and some of those systemicchallenges that they're facing.
Erica D'Eramo (11:22):
Yeah, that that role of coach. People often
think that we tell people whatto do right, that we advise them
on what they should do, whenreally what we're usually doing
is either holding up a mirror orasking these illuminating
questions that then reveal theconnections that are important
to that individual, because,like our one lived experience or
(11:45):
our our one perspective is notactually as important unless
we're coming in as a consultant,right? If you are being, if you
are being asked to come in andand lend your subject matter
expertise on something,certainly we can talk about best
practice, but that coachperspective really often just
will highlight the questionsthat we ask will often bring to
(12:05):
bear these details or contextthat, like, we wouldn't have
known because we weren't there,we weren't in the situation. So
as the coach, we wouldn't knowit. But that's not what's
important, right? It's theleader. It's the individual who
suddenly has the realizationabout, like, Oh, this is why
it's happening, right? Likethis. That's the penny drops
like you see it. Almost everycoaching session, some penny
(12:26):
drops right,
Unknown (12:27):
right. And you mentioned two things that I
think are important, and that'sreframing and visualization. And
I encourage leaders to usevisual mapping techniques like
causal loop diagrams or mindmaps to see how different
elements connect. And so I alsohelp try to help them break down
the complexity into manageablelayers. And, you know, just had
(12:49):
a conversation the other day.
So, you know, like, instead oftackling everything at once,
what we need to do is focus onkey leverage points where just
small changes can have a hugeimpact?
Erica D'Eramo (13:02):
Yeah, I think right now, especially, there's
just so much volatility in theworld. I mean, there's so much
unknown, and I think a lot ofpeople are feeling very
overwhelmed, and especiallyfolks who have a risk oriented
mindset, right? Like a riskmitigation oriented mindset,
(13:22):
which is certainly a lot ofleaders, a lot of engineering
types, but that that can be,there's so many inputs that it
can kind of overwhelm thesystem, the brain system. And so
what you mentioned really bringsme back to this concept of,
like, what options do you haveright now. Like, what are, what
(13:43):
are the levers, what are thechoices that you have available
to you right now? Because if weYes, it's great to look at the
bit the larger system. But if wereally just, like, expand too
far and don't get clear about,like, what are the options right
now, we stagnate, right we get,like, frozen or stuck. So
Unknown (14:03):
yeah, for sure. Yeah.
And I think a key aspect, and Igo over this with my leaders,
this idea of or this role ofemotional intelligence, and how
it plays a role in systemsthinking and in coaching. And so
emotional intelligence is hugein systems thinking leaders who
(14:27):
lack self awareness oftenmisinterpret the challenges that
they're facing and misinterpretor react impulsively instead of
strategically. And so empathy isalso critical. Systems aren't
just about processes, right?
(14:48):
They're about people. They'reabout understanding
stakeholders, motivations.
They're about understanding thefears, the incentives you know
that help leaders. And alsonavigate these complex systems a
little bit more effectively.
Erica D'Eramo (15:04):
Yeah, it's funny, I have a lot of folks who will
say, like, I'm I'm an engineerby background, I don't do like,
feelings or emotion or orthey'll come up to a problem and
they'll say, well, but this isthe correct solution, right? It
was like, okay, yes, it you maybe correct. That may be
factually correct. And now whatright like, and now what is most
(15:29):
effective in this situationthrough perhaps we can
sometimes, I find the lens oflike diplomacy can be helpful.
Like you might be correct here,but considering the other
stakeholders, considering whatthe ultimate goal is, what will
be most effective. And I thinkthat that that emotional
intelligence that you mentioned,the self management right
(15:50):
putting sometimes I talk aboutthe air gap between reaction and
response. So you might have anemotional reaction to something.
You might notice that yousomething elicits a reaction,
sometimes even a physicalreaction, and just giving
yourself that air gap to thendecide what your response will
(16:12):
be, keeping in mind what outcomeyou want from the situation.
Unknown (16:18):
Yeah. And I yeah, I know I brought up Peter saying
before, Peter Sangay work,before earlier in the segment,
but you know, like I tell them,you know, with the especially
with considering the emotionalintelligence aspect, it's about
relationship, right? And PeterSenge says that a shared vision
(16:40):
is not an idea. It's a force inpeople's hearts, and so it's
about relationship building. Andthis reiterate, reiterates that
connected systems thinking, youknow, to leadership, your your
or your connecting systemsthinking to leadership, to
(17:01):
culture and to motivationthrough that lens of
relationship building. And soyou've really have got to get
this awareness to self awarenessabout yourself. And I often go
through this with with leaders,and we talk about, well, what
motivates you as leader? Who areyou as a leader? By what do you
(17:24):
operate? What gets you up in themorning? And then, how can you
use that as a powerful platformto connect with others, not the
not the actual organizationitself, right? But how are these
different pieces connected toeach other where you can
establish a shared vision thatis like, like saying you says
(17:45):
not just an idea, but it becomessomething that is adopted into
the hearts of the individualswithin that organization.
Erica D'Eramo (17:55):
Yeah, that's, I mean, that's a really valuable
reflection. I think that sooften, especially when things
are contentious, or people arethere's tension within an
organization being able to getreally clear about, ultimately,
where, where are we aligned in,where we're trying to head to
(18:16):
right, like, if we can bealigned at least on the mission,
then everything else is just achallenge of the how we might
have different ideas about howwe get there, and we can partner
against the larger challenge ofaccomplishing the mission. And
we're not necessarily butting upagainst each other. We're
together on on a missiontogether. I think that that can
(18:37):
be really helpful. But again,it's about understanding your
ultimate why and the and theultimate why of the other people
that are on that mission withyou, and it might be different.
That's okay, right? It might belike, personal fulfillment. It
might be some deeper impact forsociety. It might be financial
stability, right? I just wantthe paycheck, but, like, at
least if you understand whatpeople what's bringing people to
(19:00):
the table. Um, they can be sohelp, especially with like,
stakeholder engagement,understanding that's that's like
negotiations. 101, right. It'sabout understanding what's
important to the other peoplearound you,
Unknown (19:12):
and especially you mentioned this earlier, and I
think it's important. I thinkdonnella Meadow Meadows is the
one that said it like you can'tpredict everything, but you can
prepare for the unexpected. Butthat's only possible if you're
connected to the individuals onthat level, if you are self
aware and you're connected withthe people. You know that go.
(19:34):
That goes with Peter Sangay, iswhat I mentioned about piers
saying gay again, it's a sharedvision. It's in the hearts. It
resides in the hearts ofindividuals. And I know this,
you know, it sounds touchyfeely, but again, you operate
within an organization. It has aheartbeat, you know, it up. It
responds to the market. Itresponds to the needs of those
that demand the product orservice that you're that you are
(19:57):
pitching, that you're selling,that you're putting. Out there.
And so I think Donella Meadowsis right on the money when she
says it, you know, you you canprepare for the unexpected,
because in the world that welive in now, you really can't
predict everything that's aboutto happen. And so if you, if you
encourage flexibility andadaptability in your leadership,
(20:19):
you can navigate these complexsystems with a little more ease.
Yeah.
Erica D'Eramo (20:25):
I mean, that just makes me think too about even
about strengths versusweaknesses and vulnerabilities
versus opportunities. Like so,often, folks that come from a
technical mindset will getcaught up in mitigating for all
of the potentialities,mitigating for all of the risk
(20:46):
factors, when in reality, weknow that what differentiates
us, whether that's as a human,as an individual on your career
path, or as an organization,it's what you're good at that
you stand out. It's yourstrengths that are going to
differentiate you in theworkplace, in the marketplace,
as a leader, and so gettingunderstanding what could take
(21:09):
you out right the and mitigatingfor the worst case, credible,
most likely risk scenarios,certainly worthwhile, but you'll
never mitigate for everything,right? Yeah,
Unknown (21:21):
no. And, I mean, and the technical is good, right?
You need to know your craft. Youneed to continue to hone your
craft. That's, that's certainly,that's certainly important. But
again, you can't control systemsor figure them out, but you can
dance with them, right?
Erica D'Eramo (21:34):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Oh, and you are a dancer, right?
That's right. We have that incommon? Yeah, I guess I view it
more as like to take thismetaphor a bit further more as
like a Tango or like a Kizomba,maybe even a salsa, you know,
(22:00):
where you're really having topay attention, and that feedback
loop of what's happeningbetween, you know what, what's
happening and responding. So,yeah, tell, tell us a little
well, I don't know. What do youwhat are your thoughts on that
metaphor?
Unknown (22:14):
Well, again, you can, you can understand every
technical aspect. You know, as Imentioned, whether it's an
organization or a dance, you canunderstand every technical
aspect of every, you know,dancing type or dancing
category, but eventually whatends up happening is that it's,
(22:36):
it's an artistic connectednesswith all of the complexity of
the system and understanding theheart of what that organization
is trying to do. And so youknow, you can have technical
conversations day in day out,with colleagues in your in your
(22:56):
organization. But again, it'sabout being self aware where you
are at that moment, appreciatingwhere you are at the moment. And
then when you know a change intempo is introduced, you can
quickly adapt to it. You canquickly respond to it. You lead,
(23:20):
and people will follow, as longas you can capture that heart
and connect with that person andmake sure that whatever shared
vision that you have, you knowon you know on the dance floor,
that you can partner with thatperson, because you're that
connected with those systems.
Erica D'Eramo (23:42):
Yeah, yeah, that's, you know, this is a
theme that's coming up a lotlately, is, while you can't
predict everything you'll know,and I think that this can help
with feelings of anxietysometimes, knowing that you have
met every challenge that hascome your way, you've met it one
way or another, right? You'vegotten through it, you will meet
the challenge when it comesaround. And what is important is
(24:06):
being able to build thoseadaptability muscles, that
awareness of the system, thatself awareness, that enables you
to be adaptable, that enablesyou to respond to changes, to
the unexpected, versus beingperfect in every way, or
planning for every eventualitythat you that's physically
impossible, right? Like trustingthat when the when the time
(24:28):
comes, you know you will crossthat bridge. And I've been, I've
been singing the praises ofOliver Berkman's 4000 weeks
lately. I think it reallyresonated for me. But he talks
about that a lot, that you knowwhat you'll cross that bridge
when you get to it, but knowingthat you know, just like dancing
right, when somebody doessomething that you don't expect,
(24:49):
you don't just stop on the dancefloor and be like, Well, I
didn't you know. I didn't thinkyou were gonna leave me that
way, or I didn't think you weregonna respond that way. You just
go with it. You go with theflow. You modify. Let you adapt.
You have fun. Yeah. So whatelse? What else should we be
thinking about in terms ofsystems thinking?
Unknown (25:09):
I think there are three key strategies that I can offer.
You know, folks that are,they're interested in this, you
know, to break down these siloedapproaches and foster a little
bit more caliber, you know,collaboration. And the first is
cross disciplinary projects, youknow, encourage teams from
(25:31):
different departments tocollaborate. That's always going
to be generative of new ideas,new approaches. And it's also
going to foster interactions.
And that, again, it's key tohave that connectedness between
teams, you know, and betweendepartments, to look at issues,
to look at challenges in a verydifferent way. And then the
(25:53):
second is leadershipdevelopment, I would say, equip
your people with skills beyondtheir expertise right now, the
new thing is AI, you know howto, how to couple, you know,
solutions minded or problemsolving with AI technologies, I
think, from a cross disciplinarystandpoint and a leadership
(26:18):
development standpoint, if youcan get teams to think
generatively and crossdisciplinarily, if I can say
that, I think you'll improve thecommunication and the team
building and so and then thelast lastly is, you know, shift
from those rigid disciplines,from those rigid, siloed
(26:42):
approaches, to a more integratedlearning. You know, whenever you
have whenever you have training,that would be my third and last
recommendation to reflect onreal world problem solving
within those trainings, asopposed to these kind of
(27:03):
detached training models, anddemand that from your your your
your trainers, don't waste yourmoney, you know, on these kind
of out of the box approaches.
You have to challenge the folksthat come into your organization
to think on your terms, toaccommodate and to tailor
(27:29):
trainings, you know, for yourorganization. I just heard a
story just recently about atrainer that came in and had
some out of the box or not outof the box, but boxed, I should
say, box training model, andcompletely lost three fourths of
(27:52):
the group. And I thought, well,let me think about this for a
second. You just paid someone tocome train you, and then you
spent money because it wasduring that work day you spent
money, hourly money, salariedmoney, whatever you want to
whoever was in there to listento this person tell you how to
(28:12):
do your job better. And thisinformation that you covered
wasn't even relatable, and youcouldn't even take back, not
even half, not even, I think,not even a quarter of what they
were trying to convey to youback into your real world of
challenges that you're facing.
So like I said, don't waste yourmoney. Have make sure that it is
(28:34):
centered on the organizationalexperience and even on the
individual experience. And ifyou're going to use these cross
disciplinary approaches, makesure that the folks that are
coming into your organizationunderstand what you're doing
before they even step foot.
(28:55):
Don't waste your money, don'twaste your time, and be sure
that people that come in, thatare coming to you again, are
connected with the work that youare doing.
Erica D'Eramo (29:03):
You know, I do love you highlighting that
because so often, I mean, at TwoPiers, we offer coaching and
consulting, and I actually youwould think, well, it's my time.
I'm gonna charge it the sameway. I charge a lot more for the
consulting than I do for thecoaching, because, ironically, I
(29:24):
want to incentivize the coachingelement, or at least open
facilitation, because I thinkit's so much more effective for
organizations to have somebodycome in and ask a lot of
questions and tap in, which isreally a coaching model. And I'm
not saying that there isn't atime and place for the
consultant role of doing abaseline assessment, giving best
(29:45):
practices, helping to devise astrategy, for sure, but it's
particularly effective when it'scombined with leadership
coaching, so that you'retackling the root causes of
things that you're reallygetting under that and equipping
people with the skills. Toimplement these strategies going
forward, and it doesn't just siton a shelf somewhere and that
(30:06):
you're really under uncoveringwhat the true unique situation
in context is for thatorganization. So yeah, like
facilitation and coaching, Ichart like we charge less for
that, because I want toincentivize it, because I think
it's so much more effective. Andyes, there again, there is a
time and a place for us tocreate a work product and and
(30:28):
provide that to the client. Butwhen done alone, I think you end
up with this, like, you know,out of the box, off the shelf
type of structure that's justnot going to be custom tailored,
so and not, not going to be froma systems design approach. Yes,
to bring it full circle forsure. Yeah. So what? Um, what
(30:52):
are your What are your closingthoughts? To wrap up today's
conversation,
Unknown (30:58):
um, I think, just to kind of offer a tease for those
that are listening or watching,I think the there has to be a
mindset, a mindset shift thatthat that has to take place as
(31:20):
you Become a, you know, just abetter leader or a problem
solver, and I think that'smoving from knowing to learning.
The best leaders aren't the oneswith all the answers. They're
the ones who ask the bestquestions and keep learning.
Erica D'Eramo (31:35):
Yeah, right, and asking the questions about the
larger systems, right? Thelarger why the not just getting
into the the immediate fix? Yes.
Well, thank you, Anthony Drlevinos, I really appreciate
your insights and having youjoin us again. Like I said,
you're, you know, our favorite,I think most, most tenured
(31:56):
guest. So great to have anotherepisode in the books with you.
And for anyone listening thatwould love a summary of this,
you can find that on our websitealong with the transcript, if
you prefer to read it or lookthrough the transcript, and we
appreciate having you on and welook forward to our listeners
joining us for the next episode.
(32:18):
You
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