The House of Wellbeing - with Behavioral Scientist Tanya 수정 Tarr

Join host Erica D'Eramo on the Two Piers Podcast as she talks with behavioral scientist and executive health coach Tanya Tarr about the multifaceted issue of burnout. In this episode, Tanya shares her journey from political mobilization to health coaching, offering insights into her personal experiences with burnout and sustainable living. Discover practical strategies for preventing and managing burnout, the importance of a "third space" for personal growth, and how play enhances learning and memory. Tanya also discusses the role of health coaches in addressing chronic illness, the difference between wellness and well-being, and effective frameworks for workplace well-being. Tune in for an engaging conversation packed with valuable takeaways for executives and high-stakes professionals.

You can connect with Tanya on LinkedIn, Instagram, or via her website at cultivatedinsights.com. You can also find lots of great resources from Tanya, including a free burnout prevention class, here. 

Episode Transcript

Erica D'Eramo (00:05):
Hello and welcome to the Two Piers podcast. I'm
your host Erica D'Eramo. Andtoday we have a guest joining us
Tanya Tarr. Tanya is abehavioral scientist and
executive health coach. She'sthe president of Cultivated
Insights, which is a corporatelearning and development company
and a coaching practice. Tanyais a senior contributor with
Forbes where she coversworkplace wellbeing, burnout,

(00:27):
recovery, negotiation techniquesand equal pay. Tanya has
interviewed more than 200 CEOs,executives and women leaders
making a positive impact intheir industries. Previous to
corporate work, she studiedburnout in the field with
families of deployed soldiersand Texas public school
educators. In her free time sheis also a Muay Thai student and

(00:49):
referee.
So welcome to the podcast.
Tanya, great to hear.

Tanya Tarr (01:03):
Thank you, Erica.
It's great to be here. And thisconversation is gonna be very
fun.

Erica D'Eramo (01:11):
And I've been wanting to have you on the
podcast for a while. So I'mpretty excited about this. Thank
you. It's always nice to bewelcomed. Yeah. Yeah. So I mean,
there are a ton of things thatwe could be talking about today.
I think we, the like real nexusof our conversation is going to
be around around this concept ofburnout, and then some of the

(01:31):
peripheral elements that wethink about when we're talking
about burnout. But first, I wantto ask you a little bit about
like, who are you? What's yourorigin story besides the the
little header I gave before? Butkind of what, what brought you
to the Tanya that we have today?

Tanya Tarr (01:48):
Oh my gosh, how much time do you have? Okay, so let's
see, thumbnail. I grew up inWashington outside of
Washington, DC. My dad's side ofthe family is his mother's from
Brazil. And they he was born inSouth America. And they came to
the States, I think in the 60s.
And my mother's family is fromKorea, and they came over in the

(02:12):
early 70s. And so, you know, I,I've benefited from growing up
in a really diverse place. And Irecently was back home to do for
work. And I realized howprivileged I am to have grown up
in the part of the world inmontgomery county, incredibly
educated population, a lot ofresources. I think, if I

(02:37):
remember correctly, in the highschool I went to, there were
like 40 languages outside ofEnglish spoken in the home. And
so it really created thisbubble, especially being a mixed
race person. It really I grew upin a extraordinary bubble that I
didn't realize, until I left.

(02:59):
And then I went to school inPittsburgh, I went to Carnegie
Mellon University, and got myundergrad and graduate degree
there. And then spent some timein upstate New York, in Albany,
which was amazing. And I wouldmove back in a heartbeat. I
really love that city. And Iworked for the New York State
Legislature, came home to DCwork with military families

(03:20):
found my way into politics.
Sometimes I like to joke thatlike my whole life got disrupted
by Al Gore.
You know, and because of beinginvolved, you know, with his
campaign very briefly, I got todo advance work for for the
campaign in the last two weeksof the election. 2000 was
totally wild. And it's a circusthat I always refer to working

(03:41):
in politics as joining thecircus. So yeah, I ended up
joining the circus in 2005. Andthen found my way very quickly
into the labor movement. And sothen I worked for working
America, which is part of theAFL CIO and then got recruited
into AFS me American Federationof State County Municipal
Employees and theirinternational office. I was on

(04:05):
the road for like a year and ahalf in 2007 and 2008 for that
election cycle presidentialelection cycle. And when that
was done, I decided I would liketo see another part of the
world. So I applied for a job inTexas. I had spent in those 18
months I had spent, I think Ivisited eight or 10 States
during the primary season. Andpart of that was in Texas. And

(04:25):
so I got to meet the stateFederation, President Linda
bridges. And I really liked whatI saw. And I think I think some
of my mentors thought I waslosing my little mind. I was
turning 30. And I was like, I'dlike to see another part of the
world. We got Obama elected. AndI think I'd like to learn how to

(04:47):
build a union and they're likein Texas, and I was like, Yeah,
I really liked the stateFederation present like her
leadership's amazing and theywere just like, in a non
collective bargaining state andlike one of the most hostile
places you could choose and Iwas like, yeah, yeah, it sounds
like cool challenge. So, sothat's how I live in Texas where
I live now. And you know, I didget a lesson in how difficult it

(05:11):
can be to organize in, in Texasin the south. And we did a lot
of good things. But that'sactually, you know, these days,
I specialize in understandingworkplace burnout and helping
people recover from burnout orprevent burnout. And and that
really, that was where I mean, Ihad seen it with military

(05:31):
families. But we didn't call itthat in 2003 when I was doing
that work. But yeah, when I gotto Texas, it was like, oh, you
know, my job is politicalmobilization director was to get
people to volunteer their timeand get engaged in, you know,
political campaigns orlegislative work. And then our
members weren't coming outbecause they were burnt out. And

(05:53):
so it was like, oh, I need tounderstand this phenomena. So
did that for a while I wasphysically burning out myself, I
had some health issues, Imanaged to stabilize that, that
prompted me to get certified atthe Institute of Integrative
Nutrition, which again, I wasdoing something and some of my
mentors were like you're doing,huh? And with what? And like,

(06:14):
you have a master's or like,why, what are you doing? Tanya?
What do you what? What are youdoing? And I was like, I'm
linear path. I was just like youWell, I guess I, you know, the
short version on this is like, Igot really sick, like burnout
takes a toll. It will like, yourbody will always win. We think
that we're so smart. And we cando all these things without

(06:36):
consequence. And I think thecool, it's heartbreaking and
bittersweet, I think people arestarting to understand,
especially people around my age,I'm 45 people in their late 40s,
early 50s, and younger, likewe're all starting to realize,
like, this is a fixed risk, yourhealth is a fixed resource, like

(06:57):
it's not, it can you can live ina sustainable way you should
live in a sustainable way. Butif you actually put yourself to
the point of overwork, to thepoint of chronic exhaustion,
where you're burning out, it'snot just a mental health thing,
it will affect your physicalhealth, it will have permanent
consequences. And so for me, Ithink I caught something. I

(07:17):
think I was very fortunate. Icaught something really early.
But I was sick, and I was reallygood at hiding it. And then
managed to find out that anyway,I feel like I'm monologuing
here, but I'm gonna wrap thisup. So I got sick. Found a
health care practitioner thathelped me answer some serious
questions turned out I mychronic fatigue symptoms were

(07:40):
actually driven by being prediabetic, because I was
practically diabetic. And Ididn't look it because our
western medicine has fat bias.
And I looked average, and theydidn't run the right test. And
that was 2012.
And I managed to put diabetes,pre-diabetes into remission in a
couple of years. It took me acouple of years. And then I left

(08:02):
the movement. And I ended updoing corporate work, which
again is so bizarre, most peopledo corporate work. And then they
do like nonprofit work orpolitical work, by the way,
political work and nonprofitwork are not the same. I think
sometimes people think it isjust that the same operational
tempo is not the same. But, butusually people go the other
direction. So anyhow, I managedto start working with corporate

(08:24):
clients, was writing the columnfor Forbes. And, you know,
primarily do learning anddevelopment, people hire me to
do workshops, or, you know,Keynote or whatever. And
sometimes they hire me to comein and do organizational
assessments. I've helped acouple of organizations do some

(08:45):
DEI work around like messaging.
But for me, too, it's alwayslike, it's not just about
writing a statement. It's like,let's actually do a full scale
organizational assessment andfigure out the climate of the
organization and like, make surethat there's full alignment. So
that's like, surveys andconversations and all that
stuff. But, but yeah, anyway, tobring us to the present. I am
sitting for the national boardexam in July. So when I got

(09:11):
certified in 2015, we did nothave the ability to get a
national certification. And sonow we do and so I'm sitting for
the National Board Certificationexam for health and wellness, I
think they say wellness. I wishthey said well being, health and
wellness coaches, and that isadministered by the National

(09:31):
Board of Medical Examiners. Soit's pretty serious. I didn't
realize how serious it was. Iparticularly didn't realize how
serious it was going to be to mywallet because I just bought the
exam yesterday. I bought myseat. So yeah, so that happens
in July and then I will be anationally board certified
health coach. And it'sinteresting too, because the

(09:53):
timing couldn't be any better.
I'm really encountering not onlylike managers and individual
contributors. But like,executive burnout is very, very,
very real CEO burnout is veryreal. And when you look at the
articles that are posted aboutit like they give most pablum
bullshit, advice. Burnout is avery complex topic that is not

(10:17):
very well understood. And Ithink we, we throw around this
term burnout.
And it is so much more complexthan just being tired or worn
out. And then also, too,sometimes people get confused,
like, I reposted something thatAdam Grant posted about burnout,
and it was really smart. And,and he was talking about how

(10:38):
like, we need to just build moresustainable rhythms for
individuals to work. And I waslike, Yes, we do and what the
research is also telling us andwhat I've seen in my field
observation is like, we need tohelp people reconnect, like we
are suffering from a lonelinessepidemic in this country. And
part of the cost of that isburnout, we are not, we have not

(10:59):
evolved to live in isolation.
And so I talked about how, youknow, there's some couple, a
couple of interesting recentstudies that have been done
around this, too. But anyhow, soI posted this. And then this
woman, I don't know very wellwrote basically a comment that
was like word salad. And she wasjust like, I disagree with all
of this, because blah, blah,blah. And I was like, is she

(11:22):
conflating psychological burnoutwith like workplace burnout,
because, like, people don't seemto understand there's at least
40 to 60 years worth oforganizational behavior and
psychology research, likeestablished clinical research on
this.
So anyhow, that brings us totoday. And you know, I still do

(11:43):
workplace wellbeing lectures,and I do organizational
assessments. But I'm also reallyglad to finally have brought
together health coaching, whichis really where my heart and
soul is my heart and soul ishelping relieve the suffering of
my sisters and brothers on thisplanet as much as I possibly
can. Before I croak, and so nowit's all coming together. And

(12:05):
that's why I call myself anexecutive health coach, because
I really do want to help CEOsand executives, originally
managers, I really wanted tohelp managers, I felt like that
intervention, helping managersbe better at managing actually
has the best positive effect, toreduce burnout inside of an
organization. But what I'm alsofinding now, by virtue of
clients coming to me, is CEOsand executives, like we're all

(12:28):
suffering from burnout. But wereally need to help the folks at
the top of the command structureor the nexus of the committee,
however, your organizationstructure, right, like, like we
have to help everyone recover.
And I think it's very lonely tobe in the C suite, because you
can't expose failure orvulnerability as much as the

(12:49):
culture has shifted around us.
So anyhow, that's that's how Igot here. And I've been training
Muay Thai for the last eightyears, and martial arts for the
last nine years. I really, I gotstarted very late. I'm a
mathlete more than an athlete,the you know what I mean? Like
I'm really not athleticallyinclined.
But that's a part of the burnoutstory, too, which is that I got

(13:12):
I was very sick. And then I gotI stabilized my health. And then
and the doctor actually, when mydoctor said, You can't do
anything. You can, you can walkcan take a 30 minute hatha yoga
class. Me Well, I mean, previousto this, I've been practicing
like hot yoga for like three orfour years, I was running three
or four miles on Town Lakeevery, you know, two or three

(13:34):
times a week, like I was anactive person and a high
intensity high octane person,and they're like, Hey, you can't
do you can't do anything.
You got to your nervous systemneeds to be repaired. So anyhow,
when they gave me the greenlight, I was like, What's the
most aggressive way that I cancelebrate mine? When you found
out and I was like, You knowwhat? I took that Krav Maga

(13:57):
class before, before I gotreally sick. And I love that.
And then so so that's what Idid. I studied Krav Maga for a
year and a half very seriously.
I mean, going to classes twice aday sometimes. And, and then at
some point, I was like,I like craft, but like there's
no competition aspects. And so Iwas like, what else could I

(14:18):
practice and then a friend ofmine had been studying Muy Thai
and just Muay Thai is such abeautiful martial art. It really
looks a lot like dancing. It'sthe art of eight limbs. So it's
just a gorgeous art form. And soI found a Muy Thai gym.
And that's in that so whathappened? I was 37, I had no
business being in there, but Iwas like, I don't care. I love

(14:42):
this. I'm gonna learn it. I'mgonna master it I'm gonna better
myself. So so that's how I gotinto Muay Thai and then very
unexpectedly last year, I gotcertified as a as a ref and
judging official, and at somepoint soon, I will probably also
get certified as an MMA judge,which like blows my mind, but

(15:02):
very unexpected, but, but I loveit. I love it so much. And and
just as a wrap this up in alittle bow again, Eric, I feel
like I'm monologuing here. Sothank you for letting me kind of
tell this wild origin story but,you know, part of burnout. And
actually I am seeing this a lotwith with CEOs and with

(15:23):
executives, you've got to have athird place in your life. Are
you familiar with this conceptof a third place, Erica? Have
you heard about that?

Erica D'Eramo (15:33):
Tell me about it.

Tanya Tarr (15:34):
Yeah, so like you have work and you have home,
they usually talk about aslocations, you have work and you
have home. And then you havelike the third space. This was
like very trendy in the early2000s, where people were talking
about like, you know, startupculture, and like coffee shops
are great places to like fostereconomic development. And also
they talked about the third,third space. And also I think

(15:54):
people new urbanist talk aboutthis a lot to you. Because when
you live in a compact space, youkind of need a third space is an
extension of your life. And Ithink that also works though, on
a personal level and yourpersonal ecology, you've got
your home life. And then you'vegot your work life. And those
two places you have certainidentities. But I think

(16:14):
especially if you work a highoctane job, or if you work a
high octane, or do you just worka job and you have a family and
you have kids, I think you alsoneed a third space, you need a
space where you get to become aversion of yourself that isn't
you know, a parent or isn't amanager and allows you to tap

(16:36):
into a flow state allows you toexperience new things is a safe
place for you to just try newthings and fail and nobody
cares.

Erica D'Eramo (16:44):
Right.

Tanya Tarr (16:45):
That third space and so Muay Thai for me, I think is
my third space. Am I allowed tolike curse on your podcast?

Erica D'Eramo (16:53):
Yeah.

Tanya Tarr (16:54):
Okay. Yeah. So because the thing about martial
arts is it's like a very, it'slike CrossFit. It's like other
people, that type of hobby. Likeit's, it's somehow it just kind
of takes over your life andyou're Okay with it because it
is deeply enjoyable. And, youknow, I like to say that I'm not
a half assed person, I'm a fullassed person. So like, totally

(17:16):
embracing this idea of like MuayThai, it was very, I will say
that it was very unexpected forme to become a ref and judging
official, but I'm so deeplygrateful that that happened,
because it really fits mypersonality very well. I don't
have a, like, good fighters haveto have a certain mentality that

(17:36):
I don't have. But when you're aref, like I just don't, I'm not
I'm not a super, I this I knowthis surprises and people,
they're just like, you're lying,Tanya, I'm not an aggressive,
I'm not an aggressive person. Iactually prefer to I love
learning environments. And Ilove reffing in learning
environments in particular, asopposed to like entertainment

(17:57):
combat sports, which is a verydifferent environment. But being
a referee is actually very wellsuited for my personality type.
And referees are meant to be, asone of my teachers says, We are
firm, fair, friendly and fit.
But our job is actually there tokeep the the fighters safe. And
to keep the fight moving. Right,the judges have to have

(18:21):
something to score. So I feelreally good. Being in the ring,
not being the focus ofattention, but also being the
one that has to step in so thatthat we keep the fighters as
safe as possible. That's atangent. But the third space
is...

Erica D'Eramo (18:39):
No, I think it's connected

Tanya Tarr (18:40):
It is connected.
Yeah. So the third space for meis Muay Thai. Like that is
That's a community.
I'm a part of that to me and the

Erica D'Eramo (18:43):
Yeah.
gym that I train out of it feelslike my like, if I was a
churchgoer, I feel like that's,except you're usually not
hitting people at church. Butanyway, if we actually have
fighter days on days, yeah,right. Maybe we should. But
yeah, that that, to me, is likethe third space. And so I'm

(19:05):
constantly encouraging myclients, but particularly CEOs
and executives and people thatmanage others, like what's your
third space? Like? How do wemake space in your life, so that
you can have a third spacebecause you need that third
space to hit that flow state,which helps you emotionally but
neurologically and cognitivelyat that is what's going to help

(19:26):
recharge your battery. So thatthen you can go in and serve in
these other capacities, whetherit's being a parent, or being
someone's partner, or being aCEO and having to make very
difficult decisions, you know,because that's, that's the
business of business, right?
They don't get to be as creativeas they used to when they were
just an individual contributor.

(19:47):
Right. In thosehigh stakes environments, or at
least where it feels much morehigh stakes in the outcomes of
your decisions.

Tanya Tarr (19:54):
Yeah, absolutely.

Erica D'Eramo (19:54):
So I love that framing about like being able to
make mistakes, being able toexperiment and kind of tap into
that growth, where you're ableto play, right that concept of
like play.

Tanya Tarr (20:05):
Yeah. There's a fun quote that I've seen on
Instagram. And it's basicallysomething like it takes us 400
repetitions to learn somethingnew. Unless play's introduced in
which case it can take as few as20.

Erica D'Eramo (20:20):
Okay, what?

Tanya Tarr (20:22):
Okay, but here's the thing. So I did some research
because I was like, Are youkidding me? Like, yeah, I'm like
cross referencing. I'm lookingat Snopes. I'm like, Is this
even real? Okay, so the, theactual story about this quote is
even wilder than the quote, so,and I'm blanking on her name, so
I'll send it to you. So you canput it in the liner notes. But

(20:42):
there was a neuroscientist, awoman neuroscientist at one of
our Texas universities here inNorth Texas. And she studied I
believe, she studied childhooddevelopment. And there's a
school inside of a university isnamed after her. I'm very
embarrassed that I can'tremember this woman's name, but,

(21:03):
but she is she is cited as theperson who said this quote of it
takes 400 repetitions unlessplay's introduced in which case
it takes 20 repetitions. Sosupposedly, and she said,
research says, right, so thenI'm like, what's the research?
Like, I'm trying to look for thestudy. I'm like, this is cool,
right? Because I, I'm like,What's the PMD PMID? Like, look

(21:24):
up this study. There's no study,because she had read a bunch of
different studies and came upwith this quote, but before they
were able to document thecitations, she passed away.

Erica D'Eramo (21:37):
Oh...

Tanya Tarr (21:39):
Yeah. And so then everyone was like, we don't know
where she we don't know whereshe got this from, but she got
it from somewhere. So it leavesa little bit of a mystery. But
the other piece of the quotethat people leave out is part of
why this may be true...

Erica D'Eramo (21:56):
Dr. Karyn Purvis?

Tanya Tarr (21:58):
Yes, that's the one.
Dr. Purvis. And so the otherpart of the quote that Dr.
Purvis said that usually getsleft out is she theorized the
reason why it took fewer reps tolearn something new to
cognitively integrate, it wasbecause when play is introduced,
a lot of positive neurobiologyalso is introduced. So usually
what is happening is like you'relearning something, but you're

(22:21):
learning something, it'screating dopamine. Dopamine is
not a reward transmitter, it'sactually a memory transmitter.
And so that heightened positiveexperience in learning through
play is probably why peoplelearn recall faster, because
they're encoding it with a verypositive neurotransmitter. So
that's why it may take you know,so people love putting hard

(22:44):
numbers on stuff. And I don'tthink that it really exists that
way. You know, but but I thinkthat there's probably some truth
behind learning something rote.
And through repetition versuslearning, through play. And I
think the same applies to peoplewho are trying to buffer or
inoculate themselves againstburnout, like play in a flow

(23:07):
state exists for a reason.
They're not a luxury, they're away that our bodies evolved to
restore themselves, especiallyafter extremely stressful
negative distressful situations.
But yeah, I love that quote. Butit's like a complete mystery.
Like, is it made up? Maybe, butit was made up by a very

(23:28):
credible person. And like,there's probably, there probably
are studies, but we don't, it'sleft, you know, to antiquity we
don't know where it goes. But onan on an, you know, and there
are other researchers that havestudied the the role of play,
especially for adults, andthey're positive things that
happened with like,neuroplasticity, and things like
that. But anyhow. Yeah.

Erica D'Eramo (23:48):
I mean, that ties a lot of all of this together,
because I think that one of thethemes in many of our
conversations, and especiallyaround this concept of like,
we're gonna talk about burnout.
And we're also going to talkabout combat sports is sort of
the, that they are related,right? Like these, these
identities we have outside ofwork and family and these

(24:10):
activities we have are related,I think it came into stark
relief, really, during thepandemic, when people were
suddenly you know, trapped intheir houses to do their work in
one room, and then they maybeopen a door and go into another
room and do family life. Andthen they go back and they do
work life and then they and alot of us needed to find

(24:32):
different ways or new ways tointroduce whatever activities or
community we had before that wemight have been tapping into
without even realizing the rolethat it was playing. And so
suddenly, it became apparentwhat role it was playing.

Tanya Tarr (24:48):
I think there also was a bit I mean, an odd benefit
for people, because not everyonegot this right. Like the the
thing about the pandemicSo uneven. Yes. And,
and people did live in very

Erica D'Eramo (24:56):
That's true.
parallel realities. But I thinkthere is a part of it where
things kind of slowed down,which felt kind of nice because
our country overall, regardlesswhere you come from, we're
addicted to overwork, and it'sactually killing us. You know,
the CDC predicts that in thisyear of 2024, that's 60% of

(25:18):
Americans have one, if notmultiple chronic illnesses. I'm
not even talking about exoticones. I'm talking about heart
disease, I'm talking aboutcancer, I'm talking about liver
failure, and diabetes. And thereare almost 100 million Americans
who are pre diabetic, andsomething crazy, like 80% of
them don't even know it. Right.
And that's actually when youwant to make the be making the

(25:38):
intervention, not retro activelygiving them things like Ozempic.
You know, you want to catch itearly. And the thing about
chronic illnesses is, there's avery clear dark line, now
straight line that can be drawnfrom overwork, and workplace
burnout to chronic illness. Andthis is in part, I think, why

(26:01):
some of the younger folks, youngmillennials, and younger, Gen Z,
are rebelling in a way andworking differently, because
they're like, I don't want to, Idon't want to die at 50. That's
not what I'm here to do. But inin 2015, when I got started, I
mean, I got certified because Iwas like, I figured something
out here. And I would like toget certified as a health coach.
And then I'd like to figure outa way to like, share what I'm

(26:22):
learning, especially as abehavioral scientist, because
that was the whole thing islike, doctors like you're sick.
But she didn't say you're sick.
She's like, you have a bloodsugar regulation issue. I'm
looking at the report going,lady, this is telling me that
I'm on the doorstep of diabetes.
She's like, Yeah, that's true.
And I was like, what, and I gotmad. And I was like, I study

(26:43):
data and patterns for living.
Like I'm gonna figure this out.
Like, I'm don't have patiencewith people telling me that we
don't know what's wrong withyou, or, you know, here's a
pill, I just can't identifypatience with it. And so I did
create some, I did make somevery stark choices that not
everyone can make as easily as Ican, but but I knew I had

(27:07):
figured something out. And soyou know, that's why I went that
path. It's just It took anothereight years for me to like nine
years now for me to like, takeit more seriously. But now we
here we are almost 10 yearslater. And we knew that there
was a chronic illness problem in2015. But it wasn't nearly at
the level that it is now. Andthe problem is that the rate at

(27:30):
which people are getting sickand dying is extremely alarming.
Where we knew was bad 10 yearsago, now, it's like, we are in
big trouble. And the issue isthat our health care. I mean,
there's health care insurance,which is his own gnarly thing,
but like Western medicine, andeven more other forms of health

(27:52):
care in the United States, likepractitioners don't have time to
sit alongside patients. And youknow, this is a coach to like,
if you're trying to make abehavioral change that that
moves on a different timeline,that doesn't happen by someone
just prescribing a pill, there'san entire set of behaviors that

(28:12):
have to change and shift. Andthe science is very clear on
this, it takes on average about66 days, to change a habit to
habit to have somethinghabituated to the point of semi
automatic execution withoutactive effort, right? It
actually takes between 20 andlike 290 days is what Dr.

(28:34):
Phillippa Lally found in the UK,I always cite her research. And
she's done research aroundbehaviors, health behaviors, and
on eating and nutrition and, youknow, ways to actually create
positive interventions to helppeople create better weight
balance. So I was taught andthat's why I work with people on
a three month schedule isbecause we have to work if we

(28:57):
work together for three months.
You know, it gives us an actualshot at helping get you out of
just the learning phase but andinto the performance phase so
that we can get you to selfexecute. But uh, yeah, it's
wild. Like it's, it's superwild, and it's heartbreaking.
But also, you know, coaches andhealth coaches in particular,

(29:20):
like we have a chance to comealongside clients and help them
actually figure out a game plan.
So it's interesting likesometimes you pick your niche
and sometimes your niche picksyou and so I do I do work with
executives, CEOs or executivedirectors, whatever managers
directors that type of folk butthen I do attract these other

(29:42):
clients that you know, I'mworking with them a first
responder and she's goingthrough a career transition and
heading up into management. I'mworking with another woman and
she, she's a stay at home mom.
She has three kids and a husbandand and she and some of my other
because they've gotten recentmedical diagnoses that are
usually related to chronicillness require a pretty serious

(30:05):
behavioral change. And so we'reworking together to make those
changes. So it's like, it's likepeople that are navigating that,
that new space.
just took on a client who ismanaging both these things.
She's managing her own business,and she's managing her own

(30:26):
health. So I feel grateful thatI showed up where I was probably
supposed to go. I can't believeit took eight. I can't believe
it took eight years. But youknow, sometimes the path of
least resistance just they're ontheir own time. Yeah, so here we
are.

(30:46):
I mean, I havethis one little just anecdote of
when I started have knee pain,it's pretty severe knee pain.
When I was going through my yogateacher training certification.
I remember the I asked myanatomy guy, I was like, you
know, my knee is making thisreally weird noise. He was like,
Yeah, you're getting old. That'swhat happens. Right?

Tanya Tarr (31:08):
Wow. Wow, crazy!

Erica D'Eramo (31:10):
Right?

Tanya Tarr (31:10):
What the heck, really?

Erica D'Eramo (31:11):
The pain was like, really quite severe in
certain cases. And, you know,like, when you're doing yoga,
teacher training certification,you're very focused on like,
interoception, and like, what'shappening and whatever. So I was
becoming increasingly aware ofit. And I went home, and I saw I
went to a doctor, like, my PCPwas like, let me get you in for

(31:34):
whatever, MRI and we'll seewhat's going on. And sure
enough, there was cartilagedamage. And I went to the first
first doctor, first orthopedic,and he was like, this is really,
really bad. You are never gonnabe able to run again, you have a
big like hole behind yourkneecap, essentially. And it's
going to be very invasivesurgery, six month recovery is

(31:57):
going to be very painful. Butsay goodbye to to running ever
again. I mean, I used to runmarathons, I don't really run
that much anymore. But like,just the idea that like I wasn't
ever going to be able to runagain was like heartbreaking. I
remember getting in the elevatorto leave and just like crying.
He said, you know, just scheduleyour appointment. So anyways, I
went got a second opinion. Andthis guy was like, Oh, actually,

(32:19):
we'll just do what they call alateral release, we'll just clip
this little tendon here, and ourconnective tissue or whatever,
and you'll be in and out thesame day, and it'll be super
quick. And I was like, well, ifit's connective tissue, like
isn't supposed to be there, andhe was like, ehhh, whatever,
it's easy. So and you'll befine. I was like, Okay, we're
just gonna, we're just gonna cutit, right? Like this thing that
grew there for a reason. We'rejust gonna cut it forever. Okay,

(32:41):
whatever. So then I went, andfinally, like, got a third
opinion from somebody that likeSmart
I really trusted. A physicaltherapist who owned physical
therapy practices. He was like,this is the only orthopedic I
would ever talk to, talk to thisguy. That guy was like, Alright.
Yeah, you got some damage. But Iwould say the Plan A is physical

(33:01):
therapy. Plan B is physicaltherapy. And then plan C is
physical therapy, and then wecan talk about other stuff
afterwards, but like, we'regonna do all that first. But you
know what, it would be reallygreat if you could lose some
weight. And I was like, Yeah,Okay. I mean, like, I've been
trying to lose weight. Yeah,like, how, and he was like,
Well, you know, just move moreand eat less. And I was like,

(33:22):
I'm doing that. But you've alsotaken riding a bike off my list
you've taken running off mylist, you've told me I can't
walk long distances, anythingwith impact is off the list. He
was like, well try swimming.
Bye! See ya later. Let me knowhow it goes. And I just felt so
hopeless in that moment of like,what are we supposed to do here?
Thankfully, physical, you know,physical therapy was more of an

(33:42):
ongoing relationship, at least.
But this is why I think peopleare really just in our current
paradigm are sort of left withthese like, answers that are not
really answers. They're notpractical answers for complex
holistic system types of issuesthat they're tackling and that's

(34:04):
why having coaches who areinformed who are data-based who
are who understand the sciencebehind a lot of this is so very
important. So thank you. Ireally wish I had access to
somebody like you back when Iwas crying in the elevator of
some orthopedic surgeon.

Tanya Tarr (34:22):
But thankfully, also you you knew to get multiple
opinions. And you found a wayforward. Right? You did find a
way to figure it out. But yeah,I mean, and thankfully that that
PT was more curious about it,instead of just suggesting major
surgery. That seems ill advised.
Yeah, we live in a much morecomplex world. I saw a real on

(34:47):
Instagram. I spent way too muchtime on social media. I saw a
real on Instagram. It was ayoung woman talking I think
she's a young it's hard to knowhow old she is. But I would say
put her as like maybe 32 oryounger. And she was like
listing off all these thingsthat we have to do as adults.
And she was just like, so you'retelling me, I have to find a

(35:08):
job. But I can't overwork theseabout overwork, I'll get sick,
but I have to also get find, youknow, a loved one and I have to
get married, and then we have tohave kids. And then I also have
to somehow find a way to like,stay hydrated and not eat
garbage, food and also work out,but also work out and be body
positive, but not gain too muchweight. But you know, and so

(35:29):
she's going through like allthese and then I have to buy a
house. And then I have to, youknow, and I have to pay off my
student loans and like listingoff all these things. And she
was just like, forget it. I'mnot doing it. Right. Like, like
she just rebels against it. Andlike, on the one hand, and I
just share this because I feellike it illustrates your point
of we live in this extremelycomplex world. We're given a lot
of garbage advice. I always liketo tell people I don't don't do

(35:53):
advice. All advice is garbage.

Erica D'Eramo (35:56):
Yes.

Tanya Tarr (35:57):
All advice is garbage.

Erica D'Eramo (35:58):
I hate advice. I hate it

Tanya Tarr (36:00):
Field notes are ok can be useful. I like to share
sales notes. I like to sharestudies, but like you as the
individual know how best toapply it to your life. But

Erica D'Eramo (36:10):
Said like a true coach.

Tanya Tarr (36:11):
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I'm telling you, it took me a
really long time to be like,this is actually where my joy
is, is wild there. I feel likeit's super took me such a long
time. And I think going throughI had to take another class. And
now I am a proud certificationgrad graduate. I mean, took one

(36:32):
class because you had to take aapproved class to sit for the
exam. And the classes I hadtaken eight years ago don't
count anymore. But, but yeah, Itook classes at Cuyahoga
Community College, proud alumnaand also include Halle Berry. So
I went to the same schools HalleBerry, I'm very proud of that.
For her class, anyway, it'sgreat class. But, you know, it
reminded me that like coachesserve a different capacity that

(36:54):
coaches empower individuals,because they know best I like to
say that, you know, you as aclient, you are the CEO of your
life, you might be the CEO of acompany, too, but you're also
the CEO of your life. And I'mjust here as your guide on the
side, I'm here to be an honestmirror. I'm here to make space
for you to talk about yourself,about how you're processing

(37:15):
things in a future minded way.
You know, I'm here to help youtap into your strengths. And
like, what is the future youwant to build, instead of what
normally you do, which is putout fires, and manage certain
types of realities, and oftentake a lot of just garbage from
other people, right? Like,literally just talking about

(37:37):
this with the client yesterday,like when you're the CEO, you're
the least favorite person,right? You're the bad guy,
because you have to say no, oryou have to fire people, or you
have to fire clients orwhatever. Like, it's a really
tough job to be a leader. Soanyway, yeah, I also wanted to,
I wish I could have told thisyoung person. This individual
who I'm not going to call who Iaccidentally just called a young

(38:00):
person, I mean, she has She'syounger than me, she's like,
probably, you know, 12 to 15years younger than me, but like,
you don't have to do all of itat once. Right? So that's the
thing. If I was talking to her,if I was talking to a client,
you don't have to do all of itat once. And yes, you are having
to manage and navigate a lot ofstuff. But the cool thing about
the human brain is it's elastic,and it can learn how to do new

(38:25):
things. And you know, we're notgoing to talk about James Clear
because I have certain feelingsabout him. But he and actually
it's BJ Fogg is the originalacademic who wrote you know,
Tiny Habits, which is a greatbook by the way. But we have the
ability

Erica D'Eramo (38:44):
His book is called Tiny habits.

Tanya Tarr (38:46):
Yeah.

Erica D'Eramo (38:47):
And then the next one was called Atomic Habits?

Tanya Tarr (38:50):
Yeah, yeah! Yeah, marketing's trip.

Erica D'Eramo (38:56):
Yeah.

Tanya Tarr (38:57):
We're not talking.
We're not going down that rabbithole, Erica.

Erica D'Eramo (38:59):
No, no, because I actually have to go pick up a
cat soon. So we're gonna

Tanya Tarr (39:02):
Yeah,

Erica D'Eramo (39:03):
I don't want to get

Tanya Tarr (39:04):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, well, no, because I have a whole
anyway, my point though, is thatwe can learn how to do new
things. We can build cognitivescaffolding that then actually
scales right. So we learn how todo one thing, we build some
foundations, we build anchorhabits, and then we can build
and habit stack on top of that.
So it is possible to do allthese crazy things. And it could
seem overwhelming if you listedit all out.

Erica D'Eramo (39:27):
Yeah.

Tanya Tarr (39:28):
But we have the ability to adapt and change so

Erica D'Eramo (39:31):
Yeah, I love the practicality of that. Like I I
feel like this is whether it'scoaching or consulting or
whatever we live in a world ofthe shoulds like it well it
should be this way and I reallyI just need to I always joke
that those are my like red flagwords from a client I just need
to look it up last thing thatI've been putting off for six

Tanya Tarr (39:52):
Good language though, that that sounds like in
months.
the you know, Transtheoreticalstages of change that sounds
like contemplation like, oh,yeah, we weren't. Right.

Erica D'Eramo (40:03):
Yeah, it's Yeah.
But then there's thepracticality of like, let's not
diminish this, if it wasdifficult if it was that easy of
I just need to, it'd be donealready. So there's something
bigger here, there's somethingmore complex, but the reality of
like, we don't need to worryabout the perfect the perfect
state in the future, like, whatcan we do right now? What are
the practical things that willbe most effective? And that's

(40:25):
the realm we're going to operatein from a coaching perspective.

Tanya Tarr (40:30):
Yeah, what's the first small step?

Erica D'Eramo (40:33):
Yeah, the first small step! So I want to get
into a little terminology,actually. Yeah. One thing was, I
noticed in the beginning, yousaid you differentiated between
wellness and wellbeing, do youwant to just touch on that and
kind of, give me that and youdon't have to, if it's not
something you want to talkabout,

Tanya Tarr (40:52):
No, I love, I love talking about it. But I think
sometimes I get really, like Iget very semantic about stuff. I
don't know if I'm that'sgrammatically correct. But you
know what I mean? Like, I getreally like fussy about things.
And most people cannot tell adifference between wellness and
well being they use itinterchangeably. I have an

(41:12):
allergic reaction to wellness alot, because I feel like it
reminds me of consumer wellnessand wellness influencers and
thinking people are getting alittle bit better at like,
calling out garbage. Almost tothe detriment now because it's
like, you know, social media isalways like a dog pile, like who
can make the bigger dog pile butlike wellness is important and

(41:35):
well being is important, I thinkof wellness as like sometimes
consumer wellness, or they'retrying to sell you something
they're trying to sell yousupplements or like certain
types of purified water or anoutfit or the

Erica D'Eramo (41:48):
Green smoothies.

Tanya Tarr (41:49):
No, I hate green smoothies. wellbeing is about
strategic management, not aboutgreen smoothies. Like that's,
that's my thing. That's mytagline, I put it, I have the
slide and a lot of my workshops,and it's like, well, well being
is not about green smoothies,and it's got a big red X over a
picture of a green smoothielike, Yeah.
You know, green smoothies arehelpful for some people, that's

(42:09):
a tactic, but well being to meis is actually thinking of the
whole ecosystem of our lives ofall the different realms that we
exist in all of the differentspaces, and how they overlap.
And to recognize this is allinterconnected. To really
recognize it's allinterconnected, the thing that I
hope I will do a better job atpromoting, you know, in my small

(42:31):
spaces where I can, and I hopemore people in this in the space
that I exist in, also do thesame is we have to remember the
interconnected nature of ourhealth and well being. Because
the studies actually more recentstudies around burnout,
workplace burnout. And whatactually works is what helps
people who feel burnt out insideof an organization is to do

(42:53):
group volunteer activities, orto have the ability to connect
with others in situations thatallow for the organic forming of
workplace friendships, right orsharing social resources. But it
really is connecting in with ourcolleagues and doing things in a
non hierarchical environmentwhere again, I feel like that

(43:14):
ability to make organicfriendships is really important
because true friendship helpscreate a sense of belonging,
right? So I often try to tellpeople like just remember that
everybody loves CARBs.

Erica D'Eramo (43:27):
Okay.

Tanya Tarr (43:27):
Everybody loves CARBs and CARBs is an acronym.
It stands for competency,autonomy, relatedness and
belonging. These are the coreaspects of social. Sorry, these
are the core aspects of selfdetermination theory. I wanted
to say social cognition theory,but that's something else. I'm
studying for an exam, y'all. I'mstudying. I have so many
acronyms in my head right now.

Erica D'Eramo (43:48):
And all the flashcards

Tanya Tarr (43:49):
Yeah, all the flashcards darn cat, which is
another, I'm not gonna go downthat rabbit hole anyway.
Everybody loves CARBs,competency, autonomy,
relatedness and belonging. Andsocial determination theory
defines how we create or claimour intrinsic or internal
motivation. Burnout is theripping out of our motivation.

(44:12):
We spent all this time focusingon burnout, right? Which is a
byproduct.

Erica D'Eramo (44:17):
Yes!

Tanya Tarr (44:18):
If all your motivations ripped out, the way
you rehabilitate yourself, is toactually figure out Okay, how do
I stabilize and triage? And solike, how do I actually think
about where do I feel competent?
And where do I feel like I canmake good choices freely? And
where do I feel like who am Iconnected to? And then, who do I
belong to? And who belongs tome? And of course, the

(44:40):
difference between relatednessand belonging is relatedness,
are connections, and belongingare people that have your back.
So I really like a lot of thenew research especially in you
know, organizational behavioralpsychology, which is, you know,
that's the space I plan becauseit's showing that treat trying
to treat burnout on on anindividual level doesn't solve
the problem because the actuallarger problem if you zoom out

(45:04):
is disconnection and isolation.
And and yes, emotionalexhaustion, but part of how you
re charge that battery is tocreate social connections,
meaningful social connections.
Yeah, one very quick tangentto... Another thing I'm fixated
about hyper fixated. It's veryfun being neuro sparkly, our

(45:26):
brains have so much fun when wetalk to each other. It's
awesome, yeah no, so the otherthing, but it's connected to,
you know, being feeling relatedand belonging and why that is
such an important factor foreither relieving burnout or
inoculating your organization oryour team against burnout. Is
there something called a mirrorneuron. Have I told you about
mirror neurons, Erica?

Erica D'Eramo (45:50):
You've told me but yeah, you can tell the
audience though. So

Tanya Tarr (45:52):
I know. I wish the audience can see our
conversation, though, becauseEric is hysterically funny when
she wiggles her eyebrows, whichshe just did to me. Yeah, I you
know, this is why podcasts areon YouTube now. Which is super
weird. A younger person. Ichatted with us on YouTube. We
could try? Yeah, maybe? Yeah,

Erica D'Eramo (46:10):
I'm recording video.

Tanya Tarr (46:12):
Yeah, um, so mirror neurons, I think are really
interesting to me, because as afacilitator, so I've been like
facilitating groups, since I waslike, in my like, college,
right. So my 20s. And then I'malso like a theater geek, right.
So like I understand, like,getting the energy of the
audience to come together. Makessense. Yeah. And so all of that

(46:35):
is creating mirror neurons. Somirror neurons are created when
we do things in synchronousaction with one another, they
were very popular for a shortperiod of time. And then they
sort of fell out of popularitythese days, in terms of like
social neuroscience. But I findthem fascinating because I have
seen so many times, when I'mkind of running the show, the

(46:57):
value that is that is createdwhen we take time to connect in
and do a synchronous actiontogether. And oftentimes, I will
get especially very serious,like, I had this one job where I
was helping like 16pharmaceutical executives
prepare for a multibilliondollar negotiation. And there I
am getting them all to like dobreathing exercises with me, it
was all on Zoom to I was like,yeah, it was during the very

(47:18):
beginning of the pandemic. And Iwas making them do all these
things that like, I think theynormally wouldn't do. And I was
like, I know this might soundhokey, but please bear with me,
please do these exercises withme, I will explain the science
afterwards. And so like when Ihave that ability to explain it,
it seems to go better. So thisis why too you should never skip
an icebreaker is when you havepeople do things in synchronous

(47:39):
action, they produce this veryspecific type of mirror neuron.
And upon that those mirrorneurons upon that and they're
mirrored because we're mirroringeach other. It's also an
important, that type of neuronthe neural connections important
to learning. But when we dothings like when we sing
together when we move and dancetogether when we experience a

(48:01):
moment of silence together, andthey're a bunch of like kind of
silly icebreakers that I makepeople do. But the reason why
make it make them do it isbecause that connection gets
made in the brain and upon thosespecific neurons when they're
fired up. We experienceincreased empathy, and
connection. And mostimportantly, safety.

Erica D'Eramo (48:24):
This explains so much for, I don't mean to make
light of it, but really of why

Tanya Tarr (48:29):
I like jokes, it's ok.

Erica D'Eramo (48:30):
I've ended up dating, so many of my dance
partners like in a bad and likeand I shouldn't have but that
dancing together like that salsadancing together, like having a
rhythm and like cohesiveness. Itdoes fast track you on all of
those parts. And then you try tolike go get coffee together and
you're like, "Wow, you haveliterally nothing in common

Tanya Tarr (48:52):
But maybe you do, ya know, after Absolutely yeah,
but..." dancing with people, orstorytelling is another big one.
And so this is what happens. Andthis is actually why I love when
I'm on a stage to make a roomfulof people laugh. Because I know
as if I do it as a facilitatorand educator to make sure that
the group is still with me,right. And also, I know when I
get them to laugh, they're goingto remember it better. But also,

(49:15):
I get a lot of joy from that,because we're all tuned in to
the same thing when we laugh.
And that's again, example of amirror neuron. But mirror
neurons are important, I think,because of the safety factor.
And I think so many of us havebeen walking around for at least
the last four years, if notlonger, not feeling a sense of
connection and safety. And so Ithink also this is what these

(49:35):
studies are picking up on whenpeople say they feel a reduction
in exhaustion and burnout whenthey get to do you know social
functions like volunteering oryou know, a barbecue,
organization wide barbecue orsomething like that is because
they have this ability toexperience things together to
build those neurons that thenhelp us feel connection and
safety. Right because everybodyloves carbs. Everyone loves

(49:57):
relatedness and belonging. It'salso probably why I feel such a
strong connection to my MuayThai gym, and why, you know,
CrossFitters and stuff peopletalk about it being like culty
or whatever, or comedy improvthe same way. Because all of
these things and dance, youknow, dancing groups, too, and
troops and so forth, like,musicians, right? Because
they're all connecting thesewild neurological connections

(50:19):
with each other. And and, andthen we're feeling it right. And
then you do, I think, feel likethe more difficult or
challenging, you know, thingsare, and the more you are in
sync with your team. I justthink that's why that
connection, that emotionalconnection, is there, right?
Because we're doing really hardthings together.

Erica D'Eramo (50:40):
And keeping each other safe, right, like,

Tanya Tarr (50:42):
Exactly.

Erica D'Eramo (50:43):
Like rock climbing, the person that is
belaying you.

Tanya Tarr (50:46):
Yeah.

Erica D'Eramo (50:46):
Suddenly, you have a lot more connection to
that person when you're

Tanya Tarr (50:50):
Like a trust fall.
Yeah, exactly.

Erica D'Eramo (50:53):
Yeah. So all right. So we talked about that
from a definition, stand, like,just kind of talking about some
words, and we have terminology.
Just briefly, how do youactually you mentioned it, but
burnout. I like how you framedit. Is there a definition that
we should be using aroundburnout?

Tanya Tarr (51:15):
Yeah, so I always look to Dr. Christina Maslach
research and she was studyingburnt out healthcare
professionals in the 80s. And sowhen you hear so the World
Health Organization definesburnout as a state of emotional
mental and physical exhaustioncreated by unmanaged chronic
stress, they're literallyquoting Dr. Maslach's research,
Dr. Maslach created the MaslachBurnout Index in 1981. That

(51:38):
instrument has been extremelyvalidated and tends to be the
index that people and it's, youknow, a series of questions.
Those are the questions thatpeople tend to use when they're
assessing workplace burnout. Ithink in Europe, you can
actually get a formal workplaceburnout, like diagnosis, you
cannot in the United States. ButI do think in some European
countries, they they actuallyhave a process for that. And

(52:01):
there are three key aspects ofburnout to be aware of. So the
characteristics are emotionalexhaustion, or what's sometimes
called compassion, fatigue,cynicism, which is like
depersonalization anddisconnection from your
colleagues, and from the work,or from the organization. And
the last one is in effectivenessor personal effectiveness, which
is a low personal sense of selfagency or efficacy, and a low

(52:22):
sense of accomplishment. And bythat it's like, it doesn't
matter what you do, nobodycares. Like, that's kind of your
way of explaining it. So ifyou're busy, fatigued, you're
stressed, you're going to beable to bounce back within two
weeks or so, like taking a longweekend and coming back and
feeling some level ofrefreshment like that is an
indicator that you're worn out,not burned out, that you're busy

(52:43):
or fatigued, or stressed. If youhave time for person, you still
have time for personal life, thedeadlines that you're dealing
with are clear and manageable,that your high workload is
temporary. So like a highoperational tempo for a short
period of time, that also isdebriefed is fine, you're going
to survive that that's actuallyreally good too for building
teams. As long as again, youhave the ability to sort of like

(53:05):
shut it down, you have a teamdebrief, you process the
emotions that happen to youemotionally I call it emotional
demobilization. Like it'simportant to sort of de mobilize
right? The work is resourced, soyou have the ability to like get
stuff done delegate if you havetwo indicators of chronically
stressed burn people that arechronically stressed and burnt

(53:25):
out, like these are red flags.
Okay? Exhaustion is chronic. Soit lasts for more than two to
three weeks, like you just don'twake up rested ever. Some of
these characteristics I'm goingto mention might also look like
or mimic aspects of depression.
And in fact, localizeddepression and burnout can
sometimes happen together. Butif you're actively avoiding

(53:47):
loved ones, or socialconnections, or hobbies that you
love, or you feel a persistentsense of self loathing, like as
well as self isolation, like allof those things are Anhedonia is
what they call us. It'savoidance of pleasure. If you're
actively avoiding leisureactivities or hobbies, again, if
you have extremely negativeemotions, like rage or numb

(54:09):
numbness or completedisengagement, and that you have
these, these very heightenedemotions, and you realize like
this is not appropriate to thesituation, right, like and when
I was going through burnout

Erica D'Eramo (54:19):
Disproportionate.

Tanya Tarr (54:20):
Yeah, very disproportionate. Like I would
have moments when I was veryburnt out where I was just like
feeling like a rage cycle. But Iknew even though I am a very
spirited person, I was like,that's this is not appropriate
for the situation. And then youalso have chronically
unmanageable under resourceworkload, like it just it never
ends, right? There's no, youhave to make the work kind of

(54:41):
episodic in a way where it canbe, you know, you initiate it,
you close it and you have adebriefing cycle like, pace
setting is very important tominimize potential for burnout.
But

Erica D'Eramo (54:54):
I'm like picturing a battery that you,
right, because like a healthybattery, healthy maintenance of
a battery. You are supposed tolike run the battery all the way
down, and then recharg it.
Eventually, if you're not caringfor that battery, it just won't
hold a charge anymore. It'll

Tanya Tarr (55:10):
That's right. Yeah.
Or if you're kind of, you know,excessively charging it.

Erica D'Eramo (55:15):
Yeah, too much.

Tanya Tarr (55:16):
Yeah. So yeah. Yeah, no battery is a great is a great
metaphor. But yeah, again, Ijust would really encourage all
of your listeners to think aboutlike, what is my third space?
Where do I get to exist, where Ijust get to be me, and I have
hopefully the ability to try newthings without any sort of
judgment, where it's a learningenvironment, and also that, you

(55:39):
know, everybody loves carbs,where am I most competent? You
know, where do I? Where do I getto express personal freedom and
autonomy? Where do I Who do Ifeel connected to? And then who
do I belong to and belong with?
I think answering those fourquestions has really helped a
lot of people that I work with,just start to see a little bit
of daylight, you know, that theyremember, this is who I am,

(56:01):
these are my core values. Andthen that allows them to
actually be a little bit morestrategic and making the next
decision that they have to maketo help triage and rehabilitate.
I think the other reason whypeople get lost when they try to
understand exhaustion, andburnout is, again, they focus on

(56:21):
these things that are actualbyproducts, they're not actually
the drive you don't have. Solike burnout is kind of like
losing weight. You don'tactually you can experience
burnout, you feel all theemotions, but you don't have
direct control over the burnout,just like when you're trying to
do bring your weight. And I liketo say bring your weight into
balance, as opposed to losingweight or gaining weight, you're

(56:42):
trying to bring your weight intobalance. You don't actually have
direct control over losing orgaining weight. But people
fixate on these things, thinkingthat they're outcomes that you
have control over the issue

Erica D'Eramo (56:52):
They're lagging indicators.

Tanya Tarr (56:53):
They're, exactly there. That's exactly it.
They're lagging indicators. Andalso, they are an indirect
byproduct.

Erica D'Eramo (57:01):
Yes.

Tanya Tarr (57:02):
So what you what you do have control over is your
behaviors. So like, what are thebehaviors that cause burnout?
What are the behaviors thatcause weight loss or weight
gain? What are the behaviorsthat I can engage in that might
cause me, for example, to fallin love, that's another thing
like falling in love, like, ifyou focus on that, then what
happens? It leads you to datingapp hell, and like, you know

(57:25):
what I mean, like, you can neverpredict how that's going to
happen. So you know, you got tofocus on the things that, that
drive the positive behavior. SoI developed a framework that's
like, very simple. It's theHouse of Wellbeing in the
Workplace of Wellbeing. And sowhen things are oblique, as what
sometimes these these indicatorsare called, you can't go at them

(57:45):
directly, you have to go withthem indirectly. So with the
house of well, being in theworkplace of well being, I just
put together a little diagram.
And I mean, it's a lot of peoplehave used this framework. But
you've got a house with fourrooms, your physical, mental,
emotional, and cultural rooms.
And there are different, by theway, and this is goes back to
wellness versus well being,there are a different set of

(58:05):
questions that you will askyourself for House of well being
in your home life versus theworkplace of well being, which
is your work life. And the thingthat drives me crazy about the
misapplication of wellness intoworkplaces is that they tried to
take consumer individualtactics, green smoothies, yoga,
pizza, at the office, orwhatever, these these tactics

(58:27):
that are somewhat meaningless.
And they try to which are meantfor the individual consumer, and
then apply it in the workplace.
It's sort of like saying, Here'sa b2c solution, but we're going
to bring it into a b2benvironment. And it doesn't make
any sense. Like,

Erica D'Eramo (58:40):
Where we have control over the environment.
That's the thing like you comeon guys, you have control over
this environment.

Tanya Tarr (58:47):
But you know, they hadn't, I think is it just it's,
it's all very all the stuffs allvery new, you know, so, but
there are certain questions orwork appropriate to ask around,
you know, how am I expressing myphysical health, my mental
health, by the way, mental iscognitive, emotional health,
which I feel like therapyactually should go in that room.
And then Cultural Health, whichsometimes people say, that's the

(59:09):
spiritual room, but I prefer tosay cultural I think it's more
inclusive, spirituality is is apart of that room. What I've
noticed with my clients, andI've run various versions of,
of, you know, exercises usingthis framework, I probably used
with, like 200 or more people atthis point, maybe more, maybe
more, quite a few anyhow, whatpeople find useful of this

(59:32):
exercise when they're evaluatingtheir house or well being in the
workplace of well being is theyfind places that are rooms are
easy to go into, where they areexpressing some level of health.
And then they also find roomsthat are harder to get into. And
what's interesting is knowingwhich room is harder to get into
is almost as valuable as knowingwhich room is easy to get into

(59:54):
because those rooms that areharder to get into require your
attention and when you spendattention there, what happens
is, it becomes self balancing.
And so it does bring in aspectsthat you might need to help you
build more sustainable rhythms,which is really the point here,
right? Those frameworks seem tobe helping a lot of people. It's
bittersweet. I'm glad that welive in a time now where people

(01:00:18):
are starting to understand thatlike, we have to take overwork
seriously, because it'sliterally killing us. And I'm,
it's bittersweet, because I wishit hadn't had to have gotten to
this point. But we have theability to make changes, and we
do have the ability to repairsome of it. And if we can't
fully repair it than to make, wehave an opportunity to create

(01:00:39):
new products and environmentsthat help sustain, you know, a
very uncertain life that we livein right now. So yeah,

Erica D'Eramo (01:00:49):
Yeah. So for for anyone that's listening, whether
they work within anorganization, they might want to
bring this into theirorganization or an individual
who might be interested in yourcoaching services. What are the
ways that people can work withyou? And how should they find
you?

Tanya Tarr (01:01:05):
Well, you can go to my website
cultivatedinsights.com. There isa free burnout, recovery class
on the main website. And thenthere are tabs, you can click on
for coaching and for speakingand things like that. And then
hopefully, you and I are goingto be hitting the road. Doing
some fun workshops. I lovegiving workshops I love doing,

(01:01:30):
I've been calling theminteractive keynotes lately,
where there's some lecture, butI do love making sure that
people are involved, and thatit's participatory. It's the
best learning environment. I am,I am taking now a couple of new
clients, my I do have a littlecapacity to take on one on one
clients. And then we're spendingthe summer kind of testing out

(01:01:52):
some new methods to providegroup coaching, that I think
will be I'm really excitedabout. Yeah, because there are a
lot of like, coaching apps. Butwhat I've heard from consumers
is that they're not actuallysure and individuals on the
other end. And so what'sinteresting is I don't know that

(01:02:16):
the robots can beat humanobservation.

Erica D'Eramo (01:02:21):
At least not yet.
No.

Tanya Tarr (01:02:22):
No, yeah, I don't I think, you know, I think this is
the cool thing about coaching,whether it's the type of
coaching we do, or me watchingcoaches in the ring, is that
there's an enormous power inknowing that somebody believes
in you.

Erica D'Eramo (01:02:40):
Yeah.

Tanya Tarr (01:02:40):
and just holding the possibility that you are capable
of doing extraordinary thingslike that, that I think is the
power of coaching and bearingwitness to one another. And so
yeah, so I'm gonna see if wecould do it in a group setting
that is, you know, a little bitmore nimble, because I have

(01:03:01):
encountered people that I thinkthey do want accountability,
they do want help, but theydon't need a level of
accountability that's like, youknow, 50 minutes once a week for
12 weeks, like, not everyone cando that. Not everyone needs that
not everyone needs that level ofaccountability. So yeah, I'm
excited. I think this the we'realmost halfway through the year.

(01:03:21):
And I'm actually super excitedabout what we're going to be
doing for the rest of the year.
So

Erica D'Eramo (01:03:26):
I mean, shameless plug for the work that we're
collaborating on right now,which I'm really excited about,
which kind of ties our worldstogether in making sure that
high stakes teams, that theleaders on high stakes teams
are, you know, really fosteringwell being or aware of some of

(01:03:49):
these pitfalls and are able tomitigate them. For teams that
might be remote, you know, likerotational teams, teams where
you take a helicopter to work,because this is sort of a blind
spot for a lot of those areas.
And those leaders have, youknow, people's lives in their
hands. And, yeah, and burnout,just like you were talking about

(01:04:12):
earlier with this social elementof it, leaders who are working
on remote facilities who arerotating, they sometimes it can
be extremely isolating in thoseplaces. And so I'm really
excited about some of this work.

Tanya Tarr (01:04:32):
Yeah. And I think too, it's like, it's actually
kind of serious, right? Like, ifwe can help managers create
safer environments, on alllevels, that that is going to
translate into safer workplacesand less, you know, less error
that actually is very highstakes, right. So it's not just

(01:04:53):
the the dollar cost but humancosts. So yeah, and I think
there's some really goodexamples that we'll be able to
share. But But yeah, I feellike, I feel like it's my
mission in life to really helppeople go beyond the green
smoothie. I gotta stop talkingabout green smoothies. Like, I'm
just I know, this is, it's notgood to have a villain, but you

(01:05:16):
don't I mean, like, it's not

Erica D'Eramo (01:05:17):
It represents a lot.

Tanya Tarr (01:05:19):
Yeah, we need to actually take this stuff
seriously. Because in highstakes environments, when we
don't pay attention to it, whenwe're not aware of it in a
robust fashion, then it can leadto injury, it can lead to death,
and it can lead to millions ofdollars per minute going down
the drain. So that's not thefirst motivation to do this.

(01:05:40):
But, you know, we can createmore sustainable rhythms, you
know,

Erica D'Eramo (01:05:45):
Yeah.

Tanya Tarr (01:05:45):
And we can help people not die of chronic
illness or suicide, which is theother cost when we don't pay
attention to these things.

Erica D'Eramo (01:05:53):
Yeah. And we have lots of the data. Now
unfortunately, when I go lookingfor it, I see lots of the data
on the, you know, secondary andtertiary impacts of this with
people self medicating witheither substances, alcohol,
drugs, food, whatever that is,not managing rage, not managing
emotions. So. So yes, thank youfor the work that you're doing

(01:06:18):
in this space.

Tanya Tarr (01:06:18):
Thank you for the work you're doing. Thank thank
us for the work in this space.
Yeah, I'm excited.

Erica D'Eramo (01:06:25):
And I will put links to your website. And in
fact, we should link to the freeresource that you mentioned. And
we'll share links to yoursocials as well so that if you
want to connect with Tanya andfollow the work that she's
doing, can find that in the shownotes and on the summary of this
episode. Well, thanks for comingon and sharing some of the
things you're passionate aboutand this nonlinear journey of

(01:06:47):
yours and I'm really excited tosee what's coming up next.
Yeah, me too. Thanks for havingme Erica.