October 30, 2025 • 48 mins
In This Episode
In this week’s episode of the Two Piers Podcast, we continue our series on resilient leadership with Dr. Anthony Luévanos, discussing giving and receiving feedback. We explore the real reasons why feedback is often avoided, misunderstood, or mishandled, and why treating feedback as a disciplined practice rather than a one-off performance event is essential to building trust, alignment, and growth inside any organization.
What We Cover
- How cultural, industry, and organizational norms impact the way feedback is exchanged
- Why withholding feedback out of discomfort is not kindness — and can actually be a form of disrespect
- The biggest mindset shifts needed to give feedback with clarity, humility, and purpose
- How to adapt your feedback to the needs and history of the recipient
- What it looks like to receive feedback with curiosity rather than defensiveness
- Practical techniques for navigating the emotional intensity of feedback conversations, including the 54321 grounding method
- Why feedback is not about correction, but direction
About Our Guest
Dr. Anthony Luévanos is a researcher and practitioner who brings deep expertise from both academia and the real world of organizational systems. His work focuses on leadership learning, feedback culture, and building environments where people can grow with clarity, dignity, and purpose.
Key Takeaway
Feedback is not a verdict, it is a map. When delivered with intention and received with curiosity, it becomes one of the most powerful tools for organizational alignment and human development.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Erica D'Eramo (00:05):
Hello and welcome to the Two Piers podcast. I'm
your host, Erica D'Eramo, andwe've got Dr. Anthony Luévanos
back for part three of ourseries. Today we'll be talking
about giving and receivingfeedback a skill that is
challenging even for the best ofus. So, Dr. Luévanos is a Two
(00:28):
Piers coach and is a reflectivepractitioner, guiding leaders
into important issues of givingand receiving feedback with
humility and openness, bothbeing essential for growth trust
and authentic leadership.
(00:52):
I'm always grateful to havethese conversations with Dr.
Luévanos. He's a great thoughtpartner, a great coach, and
we're glad to have them back onthe podcast. Thanks so much for
joining well.
Dr. Luévanos (01:05):
Thank you so much.
I appreciate it. This is so muchfun for me. It's just like the
highlight of the month, orwhenever we get to do these. And
the topics are so fun, socritical to, you know, work,
life and just, it's just so fun,so much fun. So I appreciate you
having me on.
Erica D'Eramo (01:25):
Yeah, I think you also provide such a good
counterbalance to to myengineering brain, and you bring
the research, and you bringthat, that different academic
perspective and a different typeof real world that you've
navigated throughout yourcareer, a little different than
the steel toed boots element,although I know you, you you've
been on a construction siteplenty in your life and in your
(01:49):
work as well, but yeah, youreally do bring a nice
compliment to to some of theexperiences that I've had. So
thank you.
Dr. Luévanos (01:58):
Thank you. I appreciate it.
Erica D'Eramo (02:00):
So this concept of feedback is always such an
interesting one to me, becausewhen we talk about feedback,
usually when clients want tofocus on feedback, it's on, it's
simply on giving feedback. Andthe irony is that it's that goes
both ways.
Dr. Luévanos (02:19):
Yeah, it's crazy.
I mean, it's a, it's a, it's socrazy, so interesting how,
depending on what industryyou're in, the culture around
giving and receiving feedback. Imean, your experience in the
field would definitely differfrom mine. Only Well, partially
because there are state mandatesthat abide by within, within our
(02:46):
respective, you know, localeducation sites and so when we
give feedback, we're, I mean,those become state documents
that have to get filed andcannot be destroyed and have to
be kept for certain number ofyears. And are, you know, can be
(03:09):
called into you know question,if you're you know, somebody
files along...
Erica D'Eramo (03:19):
Dispute.
Dr. Luévanos (03:21):
So it's just, it's, it's, it's a little
different. I mean, maybe, maybenot, and I don't know. I mean, I
think your industry is, is veryinteresting, and how that works.
Erica D'Eramo (03:32):
I mean, I think that, yeah, that raises the
stakes even more, probably, whenit's all documented so much, I
think that most organizations dohave some sort of formal, bi
annual, or at least annualfeedback cycle, where stuff does
(03:53):
get documented, but the quality,quantity, regularity, timing,
all of that, yeah, is isdefinitely variable. And while
the stakes might not seem ashigh as what you just mentioned,
(04:14):
I do think that folks don'talways realize how that feedback
will be used, what it means, andwe don't know until, kind of
until the disruption happens,perhaps, or somebody is not
thriving and they're notexcelling, and we wonder why. So
I guess, like, what is in yourpoint of view, what is the
(04:37):
criticality besides thedocumentation requirements?
What's the criticality offeedback? Like, what makes this
conversation important for us tobe having?
Dr. Luévanos (04:45):
You know, I think it's the the growth aspect,
being able to, like, on the oneside, as you mentioned earlier,
being able to give feedback, youknow, even, even in the small
things that. You think about,like, tone, tenor, pitch, and
then the content of what youdeliver, and then the, what is
(05:07):
it, the concept of being kindversus being nice, you know,
it's always that way. I mean,because it's all it's all
intent, you know, and you haveto be intentional about it, and
you have to measure what yousay. I don't know. What comes to
mind is giving feedback that isactionable and giving feedback
(05:33):
that is going to, again, speakto maybe, you know, depending on
where you are in theorganization you know, going to
address the program ordepartment area goals and
objectives, you know. And thenoverall, the organizational
vision for where those you know,where that organization is
headed, but that's you know, youknow. And on the other end, it's
(05:57):
just the individual growth. Imean, it's like a trip to the
dentist's office, you know, likeyou have to, you have to do it.
And you know, sometimes it's agreat visit. And there's really,
you know, you know, not thesting you know, but sometimes
it's pointing out the spinach inyour teeth and making sure that
(06:18):
you know it, whatever needs tobe as addressed in a manner that
can be, you know, like edifying,
Erica D'Eramo (06:28):
Yeah!
Dr. Luévanos (06:28):
Like a coach...
Erica D'Eramo (06:30):
I mean, well, I mean, I love that. I love that
example, because not going tothe dentist doesn't mean that
the cavities aren't there andaren't going to cause you pain.
It just makes it much worse whenyou put it off and you end up
with a root canal instead. So Ithink it's a perfect example,
because so often leaders, andthis is not just about leaders,
(06:53):
because I hope that anyone who'slistening to this who thinks,
Well, I don't have directreports, I don't have to give
feedback, I would definitelyjust we have to give feedback to
our peers, we have to givefeedback to our partners, we
have to give feedback,sometimes, to our managers. And
so being able to give feedbackand not avoid the conversation
(07:14):
is critical, regardless of howmany direct reports you have.
But I think that often I hear arefrain around, you know, I
don't want to deal with theconflict. What if it What? What
if the side situation goessideways? What if the
conversation goes sideways? Whatif they react poorly? What if it
hurts their feelings? Sometimesit's really driven from like a
(07:37):
place of empathy, which Iappreciate. I do appreciate this
sentiment, and yet the irony is,whenever I ask that leader,
like, would you want your leaderto withhold feedback because
they were afraid of hurting yourfeelings every single time, the
answer is resoundingly No, andin fact, like they might even
(08:00):
feel disrespected if they feltlike that was happening, right?
It's just, in many ways, beingable so if folks are listening
and they want to take one thingaway from it, from this
conversation, I think it'sprobably this, being able to
give good quality feedback is ashow of respect, full stop.
Dr. Luévanos (08:24):
That's good.
Erica D'Eramo (08:25):
I mean even, and I would even say denying people
the opportunity to know wherethey stand and to address it is
perhaps a sign of disrespect,because everyone that we are
working with in the professionalrealm is an adult, right? They
(08:49):
are there because they have askill set, because they wanted
to grow, because they havedeveloped themselves. They have
worked hard, they've putthemselves through school.
They've achieved credentials andmilestones, and so they've done
that because they've been ableto get feedback, not just
feedback from humans, but likefrom the environment, from
(09:10):
making mistakes, from fromlearning hard lessons. So let me
pause there. What are yourthoughts when I say that?
Dr. Luévanos (09:18):
Well, I was thinking of just, you know,
asking, you know, or just thisquestions, like, Well, whenever
I do get feedback, what do I,you know, what do I have to keep
in mind? And so I was just, whatdo you what do you keep in mind?
Like, what are the things thatyou like, best practices that
you employ whenever you'regiving feedback?
Erica D'Eramo (09:40):
Yeah, I mean, sorry, that was cat in the
background. Cats are actuallynot interested in feedback. I'll
mention that they do not needfeedback. They are not seeking
affirmation of our respect forthem, but our employees and our.
Colleagues are. So I think thatsometimes literally naming that
(10:03):
thing out loud and just puttinga name to it can be so powerful,
especially if we feel like theperson we're about to give
feedback to is not feelingparticularly receptive, and
maybe is feeling quitevulnerable or or perhaps they've
had experiences in the pastwhere the feedback has not been
(10:24):
delivered in a respectful way,or has not been delivered in a
constructive way. And so namingthe thing out loud, you can even
say, like, hey, it's nevercomfortable to have this is,
this is when the feedback isconstructive, right? Where
there's a gap, or there's, um,there's maybe a performance
(10:45):
issue or an expectations issue.
So I think that saying the thinglike naming the elephant in the
room, that these conversationsare never particularly
comfortable, and yet I would bedoing you a disservice if I
withheld it simply because Ididn't want either of us to be
uncomfortable, right? So I oweyou the opportunity to discuss
(11:05):
this, and I want to know yourthoughts as well, like I'm going
to give you my perspective, butI want to know your thoughts as
well, because we only have partof the we only have part of the
story, right? We have our story,but retaining that humility and
that curiosity, I think, canreally bring down the tension
(11:27):
overall, and setting a reallyclear goal of the outcome being
for us to get to a place whereyou feel you're able to achieve
these expectations, where wehave clear expectations, and you
feel empowered and able toachieve them. And people want
(11:48):
that, right? They want they wantthat, as long as it's not just
like a one sided conversation,right?
Dr. Luévanos (11:58):
Yeah, and I love that, because essentially what
you're doing when you're givingfeedback is kind of like handing
somebody a treasure map. I mean,like an adventure, you know?
You're basically saying, Hey, Isee the hidden potential in you,
and I'm handing you the clues tofind it. And yes, sometimes it's
a bit like saying you've got,like I said earlier, you got
some smashing your teeth, butthat's actually a favor, you
(12:21):
know. And so when it comes togiving feedback, those of you
that are just thinking, I can't,you know, I can't get past my
anxiety, and what's about tohappen, you're not just
delivering a performance review.
Just think of it that way.
You're basically being a growthbuddy, you know, the golden
Erica D'Eramo (12:39):
Yeah,
Dr. Luévanos (12:39):
Be honest. And to be kind, imagine you're giving
someone a compass and not a slapon the wrist.
Erica D'Eramo (12:46):
You know, right?
And they say, like the platinumrule is to so this is, this
brings a good piece, right? Thegolden rule like to treat others
the way you would want to betreated, and the platinum rule
is to treat others the way theywould want to be treated. So
that actually prompted. That's areminder, too, that we can ask
people how they want to receivetheir feedback, and we can adapt
based on what we know aboutthem. So some people, they like
(13:09):
that band aid ripped right offright just give it to me
straight, Coach!, Just tell mehow it is, and I'm gonna go fix
it. Other people maybe want agentler approach. Want more open
ended questions and exploration,so checking in with people about
like how they want to have thatconversation, how they like
their how they like theirfeedback delivered, and maybe
(13:31):
even asking them to reflect on,you know, when have you had
feedback delivered in a way thatfelt supportive and, you know,
like, constructive feedbackdelivered in a way that felt
supportive. What were thecommonalities there that I
should know as your as yourmanager and a leader in the
organization, and then adapting?
(13:53):
And, yeah, that can be tough,but that's like, that's what
leaders get paid for.
Dr. Luévanos (13:58):
Yeah, and you know, it can sometimes for those
of you on the other end, youknow, you know, thinking or
thinking about this on the otherend, you know, receiving
feedback can sometimes, I mean,just depends on the year the
quarter. You know, receivingfeedback can be like handling a
porcupine, but that's just proofthat people care about you and
(14:18):
they want you know. They're nottrying to trick you, or anything
like that. They're trying togrow you into the person that
you can be. But the trick is,stay curious. Stay curious when
you're receiving feedback, ifit's not what you foresaw, you
know, think of feedback as apuzzle piece. You know, you're
(14:39):
just trying to figure thing.
You're just trying to figure outwhere it fits.
Erica D'Eramo (14:44):
So I think that that's an interesting concept,
because actually, let's face it,there's a reason we're talking
about how to give feedback andwhat we should what we should be
doing as leaders at you know,even, even as unofficial leaders
and giving feedback. And that'sbecause a lot of people do not
do it well. They do not feelcomfortable with it. So when
(15:07):
we're receiving feedback, Ithink we can recognize that the
person giving us the feedbackmight not be very skilled at
giving feedback. They might notbe giving quality and sometimes,
let's face it, I mean, I want tobelieve that everybody has good
intentions, but I've I haveexperienced feedback that did
not have good intentions, right?
I have experienced veryconfusing feedback or feedback
(15:28):
that was very biased one way oranother. And so there are things
that we can do on the receivingend to help ensure that we are
getting something actionable outof it, that we are and so first
of all, I would say, before weeven get to how to receive
feedback, if you're a managerand you're giving feedback,
(15:51):
please make sure that you havechecked yourself for biases.
Please check that if that youwould give the same type of
feedback to other people. So wewe've heard, we've seen study
after study that shows thatwomen get feedback about their
personality. They get lessactionable feedback, they get
(16:13):
less timely feedback. They aredeprived of feedback more
because people are worriedthey're gonna cry or react
poorly, or they'll be moresensitive. So you know if you
were to, if you were to takethat, if you can look at the
feedback that you're putting insomebody's written annual report
and and you can tell, withoutany identifying information, if
(16:34):
that was being given to a womanor a man based on the tone and
quality of the feedback and whatit's focused on, maybe, maybe
reflect on that a little bit. Itshould be measurable. It should
be actionable. It should spantechnical elements, and you
should be able to point to whatgood would look like. So like
(16:55):
being more personable is not athing. Don't know what that
means. Tell me what morepersonable means. And tell me if
you're giving that feedback tothe men in the organization too.
Dr. Luévanos (17:10):
Yeah, for sure.
And you know, in my experience,you know it does, it does make a
difference. You know, checkingyour ego, checking your biases
you know at the door, ensuringthat you're not vague. Because
you know, even when you'releading organizations that are
100 plus employees, you know youyou still have to model giving
(17:34):
feedback so that the folks thatyou have entrusted to supervise
other employees under you. Imean, it's something that you do
have to be intentional about,and not allow yourself just to
think, well, you're they'llfigure it out. It has to be,
(17:54):
it's clear, constructive, andthey have to see the critical
issues within the organization,within the department, and make
it relevant, so that people canuse the feedback, and that it's
not just a matter of, you know,just, hey, here's something that
(18:15):
I thought, you know, I need tojust check off the list and, you
know, move on again. Yourorganization will suffer in the
long run, if that's the kind ofculture you create,
Erica D'Eramo (18:29):
Yeah, 100% right?
You have a feedback loop on anysort of process system. It's
adjusting to the reality. Andyou are that feedback loop for
many of the employees. I thinkthe other piece that what your
word, what your words there,just prompted me to think about,
was around, kind of even theframing of it, so the relevance,
(18:50):
tying it to the organization,not just because I said so,
right, like, we're not this.
You're not a parent. It's notthis is not a child, and that
dynamic can be really tricky.
And none of us actually wantchildren. Want children working
for us, so actually tying it tothe relevance for the
(19:12):
organization, but thenexplaining like, what does good
look like? What is the outcomethat we're truly seeking here?
Because people might have morecreative ways of getting to that
outcome. That's why coaching isso valuable, right? Because we
actually go to the higher ordergoal and we figure out the most
effective way to get there. Soif it's, you know, a reduction
in first aid incidents is thething that we need to see,
(19:35):
brainstorming and allowing yourleaders, or your the members of
your organization to take someownership about how they get
there, and not micromanaging ornot adding a stylistic
preference, you know, like, iftelling people how to do their
jobs as long as they're reachingthe outcomes that are important.
That's That's what matters. ButI think that that framing of
(19:58):
the. Is what we want to see. Canbe so much more powerful than
stop doing X, Y and Z. Like,even if there's a stop doing X,
Y and Z, you can still flip itto instead of x, y and z, we
want to see a, b and c. Like,this is what I need to see,
Dr. Luévanos (20:15):
Yeah, yeah. And there's just less, less common
perspective that I think itmight be good for those of you
that are kind of in thepipeline, you know, thinking
about leadership opportunitiesand kind of moving up, and
that's leading followers,leading leaders in the feedback
loop. There's a huge payoff forleaders that have folks that
(20:41):
they supervise that are kind ofin the pipeline. And, you know,
the reality check for you as aleader, you know, those of you
that are out there is thatleaders often live in a feedback
desert. I mean, thoughtfulleader feedback, you know, it
keeps it keeps leaders grounded.
And then there's a trust loop.
You know, leaders that receivefeedback Well, show humility,
you know,
Erica D'Eramo (21:00):
Yeah
Dr. Luévanos (21:01):
encourages more upward feedback, which improves
decisions. And that demonstratesa little bit of that shared
leadership system for theorganization. It reminds
everyone that leadership is arelational practice and not a
solo act. So...
Erica D'Eramo (21:15):
Yeah
Dr. Luévanos (21:15):
If you're aware of that. I mean, it's kind of, you
know, called The Subtle Art ofLeading up, you know, I mean,
it's it matters, and I thinkleaders appreciate that, or
great leaders appreciate thatfrom the people that they
supervise. Because honestly,what's, whatever is in your
blind spot, you know, is justsomething that you just never
(21:38):
considered. You know, those,those folks that are in the
pipeline can be extremely
Erica D'Eramo (21:42):
helpful. I had one leader who used to say,
like, beware of the all greendashboard. And I'm sure I've
said it on the on the podcast somany times, beware of the all
green dashboard, because itprobably means you're getting
the info that you want to seeand not the info that you need
to see. And so I think that ifleaders are not getting
(22:03):
constructed, first of all, ifthey're not seeking out the
feedback, that's probably achallenge. But if you're not
getting, if you're never gettinguncomfortable information, then
that is a big indicator that youmight have some blind spots. And
if you if you think, well,that's their fault for not
giving me that information. Iwould be very curious about how
(22:25):
you've reacted to badinformation or inconvenient
information in the past,because, like you said, we have
if you want the information,even if it's really
inconvenient, if you want toretain even if it's inaccurate,
right? Like, even if it'sinaccurate, if you want to
retain access to thatinformation, then making the
(22:47):
person feel that they'vecontributed in a valuable way by
going out on a limb andproviding it is a big step in
that direction.
Dr. Luévanos (22:56):
Without a doubt.
Erica D'Eramo (22:58):
Yeah...
Dr. Luévanos (22:58):
Without a doubt.
Erica D'Eramo (23:00):
So, let's see we've talked about how to give
feedback and some of theframings there. One thing I
don't think we've mentioned thatcan be really important is,
actually, you know, there's thistheory, they call it, they use,
a lot of people use, like, acurse word, which we're not
going to use here, because we'regoing to keep it PG. But it PG,
(23:22):
but the like the poop sandwich,right? So giving a good, giving
some something good, and thenthe sandwiching the negative
thing in between, and givingsomething good again. And it's
one of my pet peeves, and, well,I'm curious to what have you
(23:44):
heard this before?
Dr. Luévanos (23:46):
Yeah, I've heard it, and it's so funny, because I
think the training model that Iwas, that I was, yeah, that I
was given was say somethingpositive first, and then, you
know, give them the negative. Orvice versa. I mean, I don't
(24:06):
know, just dependent on the thatparticular week or the person
or, you know, and I thought, youknow, it does. It doesn't really
make any sense. But I mean,just, I mean, when you're giving
feedback, it shouldn't be thefirst interaction that you have,
(24:32):
because that's what makes it soterrible, because, you know,
they haven't seen you for, youknow, six months or three months
or nine months, and then all ofa sudden, you're this person
that shows up and wants to havea meeting. I'm going to give you
feedback on your performance. Imean, there's no relationship.
(24:53):
It inherently feels like I gotyou if you get any negative
feedback. So. So, you know, youknow, splitting that up like
that. I mean, even if it is wellintentioned and it's going to be
really great feedback in yourmind, you got to remember, you
know, it's relational, andpeople will remember how you
(25:14):
made them feel more than whatyou actually said. And so, yeah,
if you want a very you know, ifyou want an organization that is
has a conducive culture wherepeople can thrive and also feel
safe, you know, and have thistrust, you know, if you haven't
read (25:34):
Leadership for Successful Schools. I mean, it's not, you
know, I know it's specificallyfor schools, but Dr.
Tschannen-Moran really exploreshow you know the value of trust,
and you know it kind of tiesback to what you had said
earlier. I mean, it doescommunicate respect as to how
(25:54):
you you know if you givefeedback and when you get
feedback, but when, when you'reon the receiving end, that also
shows how much you valuesomebody you know with that you
know that respect that goesalong with it. Because if you
don't have a relationship withthat, what does that to me, that
communicates you didn't reallycare about what I'm doing to
(26:17):
this organization. I reallydon't matter. I'm just another
cog to keep whatever product orservice churning out or churned
out so that I can, you know,stay employed, and that's all I
care about. And there's nogrowth. The organization
stagnates. You're having you gothigh turnover, because nobody
really feels valued or connectedor tied to the organization
(26:40):
itself, and they don't, theydon't, you know, they don't
consider you a real leader.
You're just their manager. Andthen get on a whole new set of
circumstances.
Erica D'Eramo (26:52):
I pray like I think that I always mentioned
there should be no surprises ina year end feedback, right? That
if there are surprises in theyear end feedback, you haven't
done your job as a manager,like, because feedback should be
happening the whole year, youjust simply document and provide
(27:15):
the and like, have a structuredconversation at those periods of
time, but that should behappening in real time. And
there are some leaders who willliterally save up the points
that they want to pick on in theyear end feedback and write them
down in a notebook or capturethem as they go. And six months
later, you're talking tosomebody about like, oh, in that
(27:36):
one meeting, you really like,let it go off the rails for that
person could have been adjustingand adapting the entire time,
and sometimes you've deprivedyourself of the chance to
understand the context thatmight have led you to a
different perception or adifferent outcome, and instead,
you've just had that perceptionthat whole time. But I think
that the the the other thingthat you mentioned that ties to
(28:01):
the quote, unquote poopsandwich, which is like, how
people make you feel. Theunfortunate part is that when we
wedge the negative feedback inbetween two positives, we've
completely negated any impact orpower that the positives could
have had. So finding a way tobecause people don't remember
(28:24):
any of the positive feedback, wesee it for exactly what it is
when it's used as a buffer forthe negative and we discount it
entirely, right? Like, you did agreat job on a, you messed up B,
you did a great job on C, all wethink about when we walk out of
the room is not A and C andlike, oh, they just threw those
in there to make me feel better.
It's B. But the reality is, itshould be like, I want more of a
(28:47):
and I want more of C. Okay, thenanother conversation where we
work on what we need to strivefor is we want less of B. So
how, what do we need to do toclose that gap for B, but really
creating some sort of air gapbetween the two, can preserve
the value of the A and C. Andmaybe you have the b
(29:09):
conversation first, like maybeyou have the construction
constructive conversation first,you close the loop on that, and
then you come back at adifferent point, and you and you
have the A and C conversation,or even just split it up in the
meeting itself. But I reallythink that, like people miss,
they really miss out on all ofthe positivity that can come
(29:32):
from the true recognition ofwhat people are doing well.
Dr. Luévanos (29:38):
Yeah, yeah, I would say that. And you know,
going back to what you had said,I mean, it should, there's,
there shouldn't be anysurprises, as a matter of fact,
whenever you had, whenever youtalked about getting those, your
employees kind of on board withthis whole process. When you are
(30:01):
receiving, you know, feedbackfrom your employees, you know,
kind of at the beginning of thequarter, beginning of the year,
you know, you want to make surethat they're involved in the
feedback loop, that they theythemselves are, you know, kind
of dictating the process aswell. That's what we did. We
would do this in education, and,you know, we would make an
(30:25):
initial observation and justkind of say, Okay, well, what do
you think happened? How did, howdo you think things? And then,
then that's when you're like,Yeah, I agree with you there.
Maybe, maybe we can work on justpick two, or, you know two
things that you would like toimprove upon, and I'm going to
look at those things, but I'malso going to give you some some
(30:48):
some pieces that could be usefulin building up to those areas
that you highlighted. And Ithink inviting that because, you
know, we're so often, you know,our employees, when they receive
feedback, they never ask anyquestions, they just receive it,
(31:09):
and it's kind of like, okay,well, that's the final word.
That's all, you know, that's allwe're, you know, that's all,
it's all that is going to happenfrom this meeting. I got my
annual I'm pretty much done, youknow, yeah, hired, and it
doesn't, you know, it doesn'tmatter now, yeah, and I filed
in, you know, in the back ofyour mind, and then I'll just
(31:29):
wait for, you know, the next youknow person, you know, manager,
or, you know, if managerschange, or you know, I'll just
wait for the next you know,evaluation. But you know, don't
do that to yourself. You'remissing out on a huge, huge
opportunity when you don't askquestions and you don't
Erica D'Eramo (31:47):
Yeah
Dr. Luévanos (31:47):
And you're stuck, you know, you're stuck in your
emotions, you know, fear, thehurt, the shame,
Erica D'Eramo (31:54):
Yeah
Dr. Luévanos (31:55):
Again, acknowledge, you know,
acknowledge that you do need towork. Everybody has, has some
work to do, and nobody, noemployee, is going to show up,
perfect, you know, perfectlyexecuting every single item, you
know, in the on theorganizational objective list.
It's just not going to happen.
Erica D'Eramo (32:15):
And if you are, you're probably that's kind of
boring, then you've topped out.
Right? Like, knowing that that'sit. You topped out. I so that's
such a great point, because, onthe one hand, yes, hopefully the
manager, the leader, is the oneasking for, like, check, you
know, checking accuracy. You cansay, here's what I've perceived.
Where are my blind spots? Whatare you What was your perception
(32:35):
of this? Where might I be wrongon this? Like, help me, you
know, help me understand. Soasking for that challenge, like,
inviting the challenge. What'syour perspective about the root
cause of this? Like, if, if myobservation is accurate, what
are your thoughts on? Like,what's getting in the way? But
even if that's not happeningfrom the leader's perspective,
(32:57):
just like we mentioned, there,there are skills that you can
have in eliciting the feedbackand sort of supplementing what
might be missing from themanager and being really good at
receiving feedback. So that's anexcellent segue. And we and you
can ask, or we can ask when weget feedback, we can ask without
(33:19):
being judgmental or like withoutsounding defensive. If we think
it's inaccurate, we can alwayssay, Ah, I'm so glad you raised
that that was not on my radar.
Can you help me understand sothat I can contextualize it? Can
(33:39):
you help me understand whereyou've witnessed that and how
you're measuring it, so when Iadapt and adjust, I do it with
that in mind, right? Like thatcan help me apply. And if the
leader's like, I can't actuallythink of any instances right
now, well, bingo. You just helpthe leader understand their own
(34:00):
bias or their own likeperception cap works, so yeah,
so being eliciting the feedback,at being the one to ask, ask the
questions, ask for so what? Whatare some best practices that
you've seen that for people whoare receiving feedback, if they
(34:21):
are staying curious and they'reasking questions, what are some
of the best things you've seen?
Dr. Luévanos (34:25):
Yeah, yeah. When I was thinking about it, I was
thinking about metrics. Youknow, so often when we receive
feedback, we don't ask about themetrics used to measure success.
And you know, if you just sitthere and you just are taking it
all in, and you allow theemotions to get the best of you,
(34:47):
then you've lost out on that bigopportunity of asking, Okay, but
what are, what are you measuringme by? Like, what for this
position? What are the metricsbeing used? And where do you,
you know, is there? A spectrumis there, you know, some kind of
line or, you know, number thatyou're looking for, so that you
can actually know how to set upyour goals, you know, for the
(35:11):
quarter, for the year, becausethat's, that's how you know
you're going to achieve them. Soagain, what are the metrics?
What's the time frame forimprovement? I mean, it just
like where, you know, when willthere be a check in on progress?
I mean, so often we leadersleave it off. I mean, they just,
kind of, they kind of say, well,you know, I didn't think about
(35:36):
that, yeah. I mean, I didn'tknow that I was gonna I didn't
think about checking onprogress. I just thought, you
know, I just, I knew I'll haveto get this annual review done.
So, I mean, you're the firstperson that it's asked me. You
know that you know about aprogress check? Yeah, honestly,
sometimes leaders are justdisconnected a little too much,
(35:57):
and as leaders, we do need tocheck in on the progress of
those individual employees, tosee their progress, and also,
just again, as a receiver offeedback, think about when you
want to check in. Don't wait forthem to just be visited on you
make a calendar. Make sureyou're asking your supervisor
(36:20):
Hey, when you know, when can I,when can we have a conversation
about my progress? I mean, thatwill floor your leader. And if
you're out there and you'relooking for a promotion, trust
me, that right there, as an youknow, as an employee, and as a
former, you know, as a leader, Iguess in an organization you'll
you want that from youremployees. You want someone who
(36:43):
is keeping you accountable towhat you said you've committed
to, essentially, and that'sdeveloping your employees.
Because when you develop youremployees, you're partnering
with them, and that's apartnership in the organization
that can flourish and improvethat organization's performance
overall,
Erica D'Eramo (37:03):
Yeah, I think that, um, that part around,
like, how are we measuring this?
How will we know can be such apowerful conversation, and this
is where, if you're, if you arein coaching, this becomes, like,
part and parcel of everycoaching conversation, right?
Like, how will we know for thecoaching engagement if we've
reached our getting really,really clear on problem
(37:26):
definition, getting clear onwhat makes it important? Like,
all of these things make youbetter at eliciting better
feedback and end at givingbetter feedback and setting
better goals. But that part ofwe can. We can manage upwards
when we get vague feedback, youknow, I will we just, we need
you to be like a brighterpresence in the office. Okay,
(37:49):
how will we know? How are wemeasuring that? And again,
sometimes we don't ask that. Inorder to truly get the answer,
we ask that because if theanswer is, oh, actually, it's
just my total perception of howI'm feeling that day, that
awareness for the leader canhelp. Can help focus this,
(38:10):
refocus the conversation onthings that are actionable, that
are impactful. I do, I think,though, that it's we are all
humans, right? And sometimes,even if the feedback, regardless
of whether the feedback isaccurate or not, it can be very
vulnerable to receive feedback.
(38:34):
It can elicit a lot of emotions,and emotions that we might even
feel shame about feeling becausewhatever, why do I even care
what this person thinks aboutme? I hear that a lot from
clients like, why am I so upsetabout this? I don't even care
what they think about me. But Ido think that it can be helpful
to remember that we probablycare. Because ultimately, this
(38:56):
is important for some for somevalid core reason, right? Either
we want to be seen asprofessional. It's part of our
identity. We want to be a goodcolleague. You know, all of
these elements we associateourselves with, being an
achiever and an A student andgold star and all of those
things. So it's okay to feelsome emotions. We can
(39:20):
acknowledge them, say thanksemotions for signaling to me
that this is important and andthen be present and curious.
Dr. Luévanos (39:31):
Yeah, and, you know, and go through it in your
head. I mean, I often try tovisualize what's going to happen
in a feedback session before Igo into, you know, the office or
have a sit down with with anemployee or colleague. You know,
it just depends. And you know,remember, you know, visualizing
(39:52):
how that person may respond andand also, you know, one thing
that you made me think about,you know. Is, you know,
consider, consider that thatbackground of that employee, I
mean it, you know, like, I guesswhat's so near and dear to my
heart is, you know, when, whenpeople are transitioning into
(40:14):
the workforce that have beenout, out of the for such a long
time, you know, like, and Ithink about, you know, like,
stay at home moms, you know,that have been outside of the
workforce for any period oftime, and they're transitioning
in, you know, just remember, youknow, employee background.
That's why I always emphasizerelationships. I mean, you know,
(40:36):
it's, it's so essential just toknow one employee and to give
the kind of feedback that reallytouches on those nodes, you
know, of growth in a way thatconnects with them and gives
them some kind of autonomy forthat, for that growth to happen,
you know, inviting them in tothat, you know, into The space
(40:59):
of making a plan you know forthemselves to grow. You know if
you're in an industry now,again, not all industries are
created the same, and Icompletely acknowledge that. But
when you can, if you are in asituation or within an
organization or an industry thatcan accommodate that, do it?
(41:21):
Remember, we're remember. Youknow, really, who is going to
push you in terms ofperformance? It's your it's your
employee base, those that yousupervise, your colleagues. You
want to create an organizationthat is generative of that
performance that you're lookingfor?
Erica D'Eramo (41:39):
Yeah, I think that's why it's so important
that we handle it well on bothsides of it, that the manager
handles giving the feedbackwell, and that those of us
receiving the feedback, even ifwe don't agree with it, even if
it's delivered in adisrespectful way. I'm not
saying to lie down and take it.
There are ways to handle it, butmaking sure that we don't close
the door to getting the feedbackin the future is probably going
(42:01):
to be the most beneficial forus, because as soon as it goes
underground, or it getstriangulated, or we, you know,
people are like, Oh, last timeit was just, you know, that
conversation was so stressfulwith that employee, I just don't
want to do it again. So they'reless likely to come early and
often with the constructivefeedback, and then we just lose
(42:23):
sight of it. We lose the data,and whether the data is accurate
or not, it's still valuable tous, we still then understand at
least that's how we're beingperceived, that's going to
impact us in positive ornegative ways. So keeping that
door open, retaining access tothe information is almost always
going to serve you better thannot. That does mean, though,
(42:44):
that we have to have a filterfor what we do with it. Then
just because we get the feedbackdoesn't mean we need to adapt to
it immediately. Sometimes wesay, Huh, well, isn't that
interesting that they think thator they see that? Okay, now,
what like?
Dr. Luévanos (43:03):
Yeah, yeah. You know, a couple of things or
something to remember. I reallylike this, 54321, technique. You
know, if you start feelingyourself when you're receiving
feedback, take it. Take asecond. Ask if you need, if you
need to, you know, if you needto take a breather or go take a
bathroom break to just absorband process and follow up with
(43:24):
some some questions. Do that,okay? I mean, yeah, you're doing
yourself a huge service. Becausesometimes, you know, there are
just certain emotions, and weare all working on our you know
that emotional spectrum, youknow, anger, frustration, you
know it just those things. Justsometimes our work, because we
get so passionate with whatwe're doing, they trigger us. If
(43:47):
someone says you're not doingsuch a great job, and depending
on who that person is that'sdelivering and how they deliver,
but give yourself, you know,give yourself some grace. Take a
breather, take a bathroom break.
Don't feel Don't, don't, don'tbe afraid to ask for those
things as you're receiving thefeedback, and then come back,
you know, more level headed andready to engage with some
(44:07):
questions so that you can betterunderstand that. And you know,
on the other end, for leaders,allow that space for them to
process this stuff, because, youknow, this is some of, some of
the stuff that you have tooffer, it could be really heavy
for your employees. I mean,again, the ideal situation is
that they don't your employeesdon't bring, you know, they're
(44:31):
outside into the organization.
You know that what their outsidestresses are, but that
inevitably happens and they'rebringing stuff with them.
Erica D'Eramo (44:40):
Yeah
Dr. Luévanos (44:41):
They just need a sec, let them process. It's, you
know, it's okay. It's not goingto ruin, you know, the day it
may, it probably will even helpthat interaction go even better.
Erica D'Eramo (44:53):
Yeah, building those, building those good
interactions, putting it's likeeach one is a vote for a more
positive. Of trustingrelationship. But for folks who
don't know the 54321, technique,let's see. It's five things you
see, right? So this is just,this is for emotional
management, and it can be goodin any high stakes conversation.
(45:14):
It can be great before you takethe stage for a TED talk, if
that's something you're going todo or presenting, you know, to
the C suite, or whatever thatis. So it just brings you back
into your body and helps toregulate that nervous system. So
it's, it's just noticing in yourenvironment, five things that
you see, four things that youcan touch, three things that you
(45:34):
can hear, two things you cansmell, one thing you can taste.
And then, you know, book endedby a breath on each side. And
that sounds like a lot, but youcan do it pretty quickly. You
can do it in like, a few secondsonce you become Yeah, used to
that practice, so, yeah, good,good, good, catch.
Dr. Luévanos (45:53):
And I don't advise smelling salts.
Erica D'Eramo (45:56):
No. I mean, sometimes the one thing you can
smell is not pleasant. I mean,it's okay, it's not about it's
not about pleasantness, it'sabout being grounded in your
body. But yeah, I thinkultimately, if we just remember
all information is usefulinformation, even when it's not
accurate, then we can worktowards accuracy and
(46:18):
understanding what what would bemore accurate.
Yeah
Dr. Luévanos (46:25):
I think we covered a quite a bit of ground. What do
you think?
Erica D'Eramo (46:28):
I think we I do think we covered quite a bit.
And for those folks who arelistening and thinking that they
want to get better at providingfeedback, or maybe just notice
that, like giving feedback takesit out of them. They're
exhausted. They're definitelynot looking forward to the end
(46:50):
of your feedback conversationsthat are probably starting to
happen right around now, feelfree to reach out, Anthony or
myself. We would love to have achat, and even if it's just not
in the context of coaching, justto chat, we can, I'm sure, we
can help reframe that and getyou back on track for giving
feedback, and vice versa, right?
If you're receiving feedback andit's not good feedback, we can
(47:12):
help you.
Dr. Luévanos (47:16):
And guys, if you don't have Erica as your coach,
you're missing out.
Erica D'Eramo (47:20):
Oh, I do think we're in tis the season. This is
a very common conversation in alot of my in a lot of my
coaching conversations rightnow, and for better or worse,
right now, the two pierscoaching roster is pretty,
(47:41):
pretty full. So yeah, if you, ifyou want to schedule a
conversation, I would say, geton the calendar sooner. If
there's any spots left, I don'teven, I don't even know,
actually, I think I might startcoaching at 7am but anyways,
Anthony is always a pleasure tohave such a great thought
partner. Thank you so much forhaving us chat.
Dr. Luévanos (48:03):
My pleasure.
Thanks for having me.
Erica D'Eramo (48:05):
And for folks who are listening. If you want the
the summary of this episode, youcan head on over to the Two
Piers podcast. Two Pierswebsite, where you can find the
player, or you can read througha little summary of this
episode. So thanks for joiningus and we will see you next
episode.
Hello and welcome to the Two Piers podcast. I'm
your host, Erica D'Eramo, andwe've got Dr. Anthony Luévanos
back for part three of ourseries. Today we'll be talking
about giving and receivingfeedback a skill that is
challenging even for the best ofus. So, Dr. Luévanos is a Two
(00:28):
Piers coach and is a reflectivepractitioner, guiding leaders
into important issues of givingand receiving feedback with
humility and openness, bothbeing essential for growth trust
and authentic leadership.
(00:52):
I'm always grateful to havethese conversations with Dr.
Luévanos. He's a great thoughtpartner, a great coach, and
we're glad to have them back onthe podcast. Thanks so much for
joining well.
Dr. Luévanos (01:05):
Thank you so much.
I appreciate it. This is so muchfun for me. It's just like the
highlight of the month, orwhenever we get to do these. And
the topics are so fun, socritical to, you know, work,
life and just, it's just so fun,so much fun. So I appreciate you
having me on.
Erica D'Eramo (01:25):
Yeah, I think you also provide such a good
counterbalance to to myengineering brain, and you bring
the research, and you bringthat, that different academic
perspective and a different typeof real world that you've
navigated throughout yourcareer, a little different than
the steel toed boots element,although I know you, you you've
been on a construction siteplenty in your life and in your
(01:49):
work as well, but yeah, youreally do bring a nice
compliment to to some of theexperiences that I've had. So
thank you.
Dr. Luévanos (01:58):
Thank you. I appreciate it.
Erica D'Eramo (02:00):
So this concept of feedback is always such an
interesting one to me, becausewhen we talk about feedback,
usually when clients want tofocus on feedback, it's on, it's
simply on giving feedback. Andthe irony is that it's that goes
both ways.
Dr. Luévanos (02:19):
Yeah, it's crazy.
I mean, it's a, it's a, it's socrazy, so interesting how,
depending on what industryyou're in, the culture around
giving and receiving feedback. Imean, your experience in the
field would definitely differfrom mine. Only Well, partially
because there are state mandatesthat abide by within, within our
(02:46):
respective, you know, localeducation sites and so when we
give feedback, we're, I mean,those become state documents
that have to get filed andcannot be destroyed and have to
be kept for certain number ofyears. And are, you know, can be
(03:09):
called into you know question,if you're you know, somebody
files along...
Erica D'Eramo (03:19):
Dispute.
Dr. Luévanos (03:21):
So it's just, it's, it's, it's a little
different. I mean, maybe, maybenot, and I don't know. I mean, I
think your industry is, is veryinteresting, and how that works.
Erica D'Eramo (03:32):
I mean, I think that, yeah, that raises the
stakes even more, probably, whenit's all documented so much, I
think that most organizations dohave some sort of formal, bi
annual, or at least annualfeedback cycle, where stuff does
(03:53):
get documented, but the quality,quantity, regularity, timing,
all of that, yeah, is isdefinitely variable. And while
the stakes might not seem ashigh as what you just mentioned,
(04:14):
I do think that folks don'talways realize how that feedback
will be used, what it means, andwe don't know until, kind of
until the disruption happens,perhaps, or somebody is not
thriving and they're notexcelling, and we wonder why. So
I guess, like, what is in yourpoint of view, what is the
(04:37):
criticality besides thedocumentation requirements?
What's the criticality offeedback? Like, what makes this
conversation important for us tobe having?
Dr. Luévanos (04:45):
You know, I think it's the the growth aspect,
being able to, like, on the oneside, as you mentioned earlier,
being able to give feedback, youknow, even, even in the small
things that. You think about,like, tone, tenor, pitch, and
then the content of what youdeliver, and then the, what is
(05:07):
it, the concept of being kindversus being nice, you know,
it's always that way. I mean,because it's all it's all
intent, you know, and you haveto be intentional about it, and
you have to measure what yousay. I don't know. What comes to
mind is giving feedback that isactionable and giving feedback
(05:33):
that is going to, again, speakto maybe, you know, depending on
where you are in theorganization you know, going to
address the program ordepartment area goals and
objectives, you know. And thenoverall, the organizational
vision for where those you know,where that organization is
headed, but that's you know, youknow. And on the other end, it's
(05:57):
just the individual growth. Imean, it's like a trip to the
dentist's office, you know, likeyou have to, you have to do it.
And you know, sometimes it's agreat visit. And there's really,
you know, you know, not thesting you know, but sometimes
it's pointing out the spinach inyour teeth and making sure that
(06:18):
you know it, whatever needs tobe as addressed in a manner that
can be, you know, like edifying,
Erica D'Eramo (06:28):
Yeah!
Dr. Luévanos (06:28):
Like a coach...
Erica D'Eramo (06:30):
I mean, well, I mean, I love that. I love that
example, because not going tothe dentist doesn't mean that
the cavities aren't there andaren't going to cause you pain.
It just makes it much worse whenyou put it off and you end up
with a root canal instead. So Ithink it's a perfect example,
because so often leaders, andthis is not just about leaders,
(06:53):
because I hope that anyone who'slistening to this who thinks,
Well, I don't have directreports, I don't have to give
feedback, I would definitelyjust we have to give feedback to
our peers, we have to givefeedback to our partners, we
have to give feedback,sometimes, to our managers. And
so being able to give feedbackand not avoid the conversation
(07:14):
is critical, regardless of howmany direct reports you have.
But I think that often I hear arefrain around, you know, I
don't want to deal with theconflict. What if it What? What
if the side situation goessideways? What if the
conversation goes sideways? Whatif they react poorly? What if it
hurts their feelings? Sometimesit's really driven from like a
(07:37):
place of empathy, which Iappreciate. I do appreciate this
sentiment, and yet the irony is,whenever I ask that leader,
like, would you want your leaderto withhold feedback because
they were afraid of hurting yourfeelings every single time, the
answer is resoundingly No, andin fact, like they might even
(08:00):
feel disrespected if they feltlike that was happening, right?
It's just, in many ways, beingable so if folks are listening
and they want to take one thingaway from it, from this
conversation, I think it'sprobably this, being able to
give good quality feedback is ashow of respect, full stop.
Dr. Luévanos (08:24):
That's good.
Erica D'Eramo (08:25):
I mean even, and I would even say denying people
the opportunity to know wherethey stand and to address it is
perhaps a sign of disrespect,because everyone that we are
working with in the professionalrealm is an adult, right? They
(08:49):
are there because they have askill set, because they wanted
to grow, because they havedeveloped themselves. They have
worked hard, they've putthemselves through school.
They've achieved credentials andmilestones, and so they've done
that because they've been ableto get feedback, not just
feedback from humans, but likefrom the environment, from
(09:10):
making mistakes, from fromlearning hard lessons. So let me
pause there. What are yourthoughts when I say that?
Dr. Luévanos (09:18):
Well, I was thinking of just, you know,
asking, you know, or just thisquestions, like, Well, whenever
I do get feedback, what do I,you know, what do I have to keep
in mind? And so I was just, whatdo you what do you keep in mind?
Like, what are the things thatyou like, best practices that
you employ whenever you'regiving feedback?
Erica D'Eramo (09:40):
Yeah, I mean, sorry, that was cat in the
background. Cats are actuallynot interested in feedback. I'll
mention that they do not needfeedback. They are not seeking
affirmation of our respect forthem, but our employees and our.
Colleagues are. So I think thatsometimes literally naming that
(10:03):
thing out loud and just puttinga name to it can be so powerful,
especially if we feel like theperson we're about to give
feedback to is not feelingparticularly receptive, and
maybe is feeling quitevulnerable or or perhaps they've
had experiences in the pastwhere the feedback has not been
(10:24):
delivered in a respectful way,or has not been delivered in a
constructive way. And so namingthe thing out loud, you can even
say, like, hey, it's nevercomfortable to have this is,
this is when the feedback isconstructive, right? Where
there's a gap, or there's, um,there's maybe a performance
(10:45):
issue or an expectations issue.
So I think that saying the thinglike naming the elephant in the
room, that these conversationsare never particularly
comfortable, and yet I would bedoing you a disservice if I
withheld it simply because Ididn't want either of us to be
uncomfortable, right? So I oweyou the opportunity to discuss
(11:05):
this, and I want to know yourthoughts as well, like I'm going
to give you my perspective, butI want to know your thoughts as
well, because we only have partof the we only have part of the
story, right? We have our story,but retaining that humility and
that curiosity, I think, canreally bring down the tension
(11:27):
overall, and setting a reallyclear goal of the outcome being
for us to get to a place whereyou feel you're able to achieve
these expectations, where wehave clear expectations, and you
feel empowered and able toachieve them. And people want
(11:48):
that, right? They want they wantthat, as long as it's not just
like a one sided conversation,right?
Dr. Luévanos (11:58):
Yeah, and I love that, because essentially what
you're doing when you're givingfeedback is kind of like handing
somebody a treasure map. I mean,like an adventure, you know?
You're basically saying, Hey, Isee the hidden potential in you,
and I'm handing you the clues tofind it. And yes, sometimes it's
a bit like saying you've got,like I said earlier, you got
some smashing your teeth, butthat's actually a favor, you
(12:21):
know. And so when it comes togiving feedback, those of you
that are just thinking, I can't,you know, I can't get past my
anxiety, and what's about tohappen, you're not just
delivering a performance review.
Just think of it that way.
You're basically being a growthbuddy, you know, the golden
Erica D'Eramo (12:39):
Yeah,
Dr. Luévanos (12:39):
Be honest. And to be kind, imagine you're giving
someone a compass and not a slapon the wrist.
Erica D'Eramo (12:46):
You know, right?
And they say, like the platinumrule is to so this is, this
brings a good piece, right? Thegolden rule like to treat others
the way you would want to betreated, and the platinum rule
is to treat others the way theywould want to be treated. So
that actually prompted. That's areminder, too, that we can ask
people how they want to receivetheir feedback, and we can adapt
based on what we know aboutthem. So some people, they like
(13:09):
that band aid ripped right offright just give it to me
straight, Coach!, Just tell mehow it is, and I'm gonna go fix
it. Other people maybe want agentler approach. Want more open
ended questions and exploration,so checking in with people about
like how they want to have thatconversation, how they like
their how they like theirfeedback delivered, and maybe
(13:31):
even asking them to reflect on,you know, when have you had
feedback delivered in a way thatfelt supportive and, you know,
like, constructive feedbackdelivered in a way that felt
supportive. What were thecommonalities there that I
should know as your as yourmanager and a leader in the
organization, and then adapting?
(13:53):
And, yeah, that can be tough,but that's like, that's what
leaders get paid for.
Dr. Luévanos (13:58):
Yeah, and you know, it can sometimes for those
of you on the other end, youknow, you know, thinking or
thinking about this on the otherend, you know, receiving
feedback can sometimes, I mean,just depends on the year the
quarter. You know, receivingfeedback can be like handling a
porcupine, but that's just proofthat people care about you and
(14:18):
they want you know. They're nottrying to trick you, or anything
like that. They're trying togrow you into the person that
you can be. But the trick is,stay curious. Stay curious when
you're receiving feedback, ifit's not what you foresaw, you
know, think of feedback as apuzzle piece. You know, you're
(14:39):
just trying to figure thing.
You're just trying to figure outwhere it fits.
Erica D'Eramo (14:44):
So I think that that's an interesting concept,
because actually, let's face it,there's a reason we're talking
about how to give feedback andwhat we should what we should be
doing as leaders at you know,even, even as unofficial leaders
and giving feedback. And that'sbecause a lot of people do not
do it well. They do not feelcomfortable with it. So when
(15:07):
we're receiving feedback, Ithink we can recognize that the
person giving us the feedbackmight not be very skilled at
giving feedback. They might notbe giving quality and sometimes,
let's face it, I mean, I want tobelieve that everybody has good
intentions, but I've I haveexperienced feedback that did
not have good intentions, right?
I have experienced veryconfusing feedback or feedback
(15:28):
that was very biased one way oranother. And so there are things
that we can do on the receivingend to help ensure that we are
getting something actionable outof it, that we are and so first
of all, I would say, before weeven get to how to receive
feedback, if you're a managerand you're giving feedback,
(15:51):
please make sure that you havechecked yourself for biases.
Please check that if that youwould give the same type of
feedback to other people. So wewe've heard, we've seen study
after study that shows thatwomen get feedback about their
personality. They get lessactionable feedback, they get
(16:13):
less timely feedback. They aredeprived of feedback more
because people are worriedthey're gonna cry or react
poorly, or they'll be moresensitive. So you know if you
were to, if you were to takethat, if you can look at the
feedback that you're putting insomebody's written annual report
and and you can tell, withoutany identifying information, if
(16:34):
that was being given to a womanor a man based on the tone and
quality of the feedback and whatit's focused on, maybe, maybe
reflect on that a little bit. Itshould be measurable. It should
be actionable. It should spantechnical elements, and you
should be able to point to whatgood would look like. So like
(16:55):
being more personable is not athing. Don't know what that
means. Tell me what morepersonable means. And tell me if
you're giving that feedback tothe men in the organization too.
Dr. Luévanos (17:10):
Yeah, for sure.
And you know, in my experience,you know it does, it does make a
difference. You know, checkingyour ego, checking your biases
you know at the door, ensuringthat you're not vague. Because
you know, even when you'releading organizations that are
100 plus employees, you know youyou still have to model giving
(17:34):
feedback so that the folks thatyou have entrusted to supervise
other employees under you. Imean, it's something that you do
have to be intentional about,and not allow yourself just to
think, well, you're they'llfigure it out. It has to be,
(17:54):
it's clear, constructive, andthey have to see the critical
issues within the organization,within the department, and make
it relevant, so that people canuse the feedback, and that it's
not just a matter of, you know,just, hey, here's something that
(18:15):
I thought, you know, I need tojust check off the list and, you
know, move on again. Yourorganization will suffer in the
long run, if that's the kind ofculture you create,
Erica D'Eramo (18:29):
Yeah, 100% right?
You have a feedback loop on anysort of process system. It's
adjusting to the reality. Andyou are that feedback loop for
many of the employees. I thinkthe other piece that what your
word, what your words there,just prompted me to think about,
was around, kind of even theframing of it, so the relevance,
(18:50):
tying it to the organization,not just because I said so,
right, like, we're not this.
You're not a parent. It's notthis is not a child, and that
dynamic can be really tricky.
And none of us actually wantchildren. Want children working
for us, so actually tying it tothe relevance for the
(19:12):
organization, but thenexplaining like, what does good
look like? What is the outcomethat we're truly seeking here?
Because people might have morecreative ways of getting to that
outcome. That's why coaching isso valuable, right? Because we
actually go to the higher ordergoal and we figure out the most
effective way to get there. Soif it's, you know, a reduction
in first aid incidents is thething that we need to see,
(19:35):
brainstorming and allowing yourleaders, or your the members of
your organization to take someownership about how they get
there, and not micromanaging ornot adding a stylistic
preference, you know, like, iftelling people how to do their
jobs as long as they're reachingthe outcomes that are important.
That's That's what matters. ButI think that that framing of
(19:58):
the. Is what we want to see. Canbe so much more powerful than
stop doing X, Y and Z. Like,even if there's a stop doing X,
Y and Z, you can still flip itto instead of x, y and z, we
want to see a, b and c. Like,this is what I need to see,
Dr. Luévanos (20:15):
Yeah, yeah. And there's just less, less common
perspective that I think itmight be good for those of you
that are kind of in thepipeline, you know, thinking
about leadership opportunitiesand kind of moving up, and
that's leading followers,leading leaders in the feedback
loop. There's a huge payoff forleaders that have folks that
(20:41):
they supervise that are kind ofin the pipeline. And, you know,
the reality check for you as aleader, you know, those of you
that are out there is thatleaders often live in a feedback
desert. I mean, thoughtfulleader feedback, you know, it
keeps it keeps leaders grounded.
And then there's a trust loop.
You know, leaders that receivefeedback Well, show humility,
you know,
Erica D'Eramo (21:00):
Yeah
Dr. Luévanos (21:01):
encourages more upward feedback, which improves
decisions. And that demonstratesa little bit of that shared
leadership system for theorganization. It reminds
everyone that leadership is arelational practice and not a
solo act. So...
Erica D'Eramo (21:15):
Yeah
Dr. Luévanos (21:15):
If you're aware of that. I mean, it's kind of, you
know, called The Subtle Art ofLeading up, you know, I mean,
it's it matters, and I thinkleaders appreciate that, or
great leaders appreciate thatfrom the people that they
supervise. Because honestly,what's, whatever is in your
blind spot, you know, is justsomething that you just never
(21:38):
considered. You know, those,those folks that are in the
pipeline can be extremely
Erica D'Eramo (21:42):
helpful. I had one leader who used to say,
like, beware of the all greendashboard. And I'm sure I've
said it on the on the podcast somany times, beware of the all
green dashboard, because itprobably means you're getting
the info that you want to seeand not the info that you need
to see. And so I think that ifleaders are not getting
(22:03):
constructed, first of all, ifthey're not seeking out the
feedback, that's probably achallenge. But if you're not
getting, if you're never gettinguncomfortable information, then
that is a big indicator that youmight have some blind spots. And
if you if you think, well,that's their fault for not
giving me that information. Iwould be very curious about how
(22:25):
you've reacted to badinformation or inconvenient
information in the past,because, like you said, we have
if you want the information,even if it's really
inconvenient, if you want toretain even if it's inaccurate,
right? Like, even if it'sinaccurate, if you want to
retain access to thatinformation, then making the
(22:47):
person feel that they'vecontributed in a valuable way by
going out on a limb andproviding it is a big step in
that direction.
Dr. Luévanos (22:56):
Without a doubt.
Erica D'Eramo (22:58):
Yeah...
Dr. Luévanos (22:58):
Without a doubt.
Erica D'Eramo (23:00):
So, let's see we've talked about how to give
feedback and some of theframings there. One thing I
don't think we've mentioned thatcan be really important is,
actually, you know, there's thistheory, they call it, they use,
a lot of people use, like, acurse word, which we're not
going to use here, because we'regoing to keep it PG. But it PG,
(23:22):
but the like the poop sandwich,right? So giving a good, giving
some something good, and thenthe sandwiching the negative
thing in between, and givingsomething good again. And it's
one of my pet peeves, and, well,I'm curious to what have you
(23:44):
heard this before?
Dr. Luévanos (23:46):
Yeah, I've heard it, and it's so funny, because I
think the training model that Iwas, that I was, yeah, that I
was given was say somethingpositive first, and then, you
know, give them the negative. Orvice versa. I mean, I don't
(24:06):
know, just dependent on the thatparticular week or the person
or, you know, and I thought, youknow, it does. It doesn't really
make any sense. But I mean,just, I mean, when you're giving
feedback, it shouldn't be thefirst interaction that you have,
(24:32):
because that's what makes it soterrible, because, you know,
they haven't seen you for, youknow, six months or three months
or nine months, and then all ofa sudden, you're this person
that shows up and wants to havea meeting. I'm going to give you
feedback on your performance. Imean, there's no relationship.
(24:53):
It inherently feels like I gotyou if you get any negative
feedback. So. So, you know, youknow, splitting that up like
that. I mean, even if it is wellintentioned and it's going to be
really great feedback in yourmind, you got to remember, you
know, it's relational, andpeople will remember how you
(25:14):
made them feel more than whatyou actually said. And so, yeah,
if you want a very you know, ifyou want an organization that is
has a conducive culture wherepeople can thrive and also feel
safe, you know, and have thistrust, you know, if you haven't
read (25:34):
Leadership for Successful Schools. I mean, it's not, you
know, I know it's specificallyfor schools, but Dr.
Tschannen-Moran really exploreshow you know the value of trust,
and you know it kind of tiesback to what you had said
earlier. I mean, it doescommunicate respect as to how
(25:54):
you you know if you givefeedback and when you get
feedback, but when, when you'reon the receiving end, that also
shows how much you valuesomebody you know with that you
know that respect that goesalong with it. Because if you
don't have a relationship withthat, what does that to me, that
communicates you didn't reallycare about what I'm doing to
(26:17):
this organization. I reallydon't matter. I'm just another
cog to keep whatever product orservice churning out or churned
out so that I can, you know,stay employed, and that's all I
care about. And there's nogrowth. The organization
stagnates. You're having you gothigh turnover, because nobody
really feels valued or connectedor tied to the organization
(26:40):
itself, and they don't, theydon't, you know, they don't
consider you a real leader.
You're just their manager. Andthen get on a whole new set of
circumstances.
Erica D'Eramo (26:52):
I pray like I think that I always mentioned
there should be no surprises ina year end feedback, right? That
if there are surprises in theyear end feedback, you haven't
done your job as a manager,like, because feedback should be
happening the whole year, youjust simply document and provide
(27:15):
the and like, have a structuredconversation at those periods of
time, but that should behappening in real time. And
there are some leaders who willliterally save up the points
that they want to pick on in theyear end feedback and write them
down in a notebook or capturethem as they go. And six months
later, you're talking tosomebody about like, oh, in that
(27:36):
one meeting, you really like,let it go off the rails for that
person could have been adjustingand adapting the entire time,
and sometimes you've deprivedyourself of the chance to
understand the context thatmight have led you to a
different perception or adifferent outcome, and instead,
you've just had that perceptionthat whole time. But I think
that the the the other thingthat you mentioned that ties to
(28:01):
the quote, unquote poopsandwich, which is like, how
people make you feel. Theunfortunate part is that when we
wedge the negative feedback inbetween two positives, we've
completely negated any impact orpower that the positives could
have had. So finding a way tobecause people don't remember
(28:24):
any of the positive feedback, wesee it for exactly what it is
when it's used as a buffer forthe negative and we discount it
entirely, right? Like, you did agreat job on a, you messed up B,
you did a great job on C, all wethink about when we walk out of
the room is not A and C andlike, oh, they just threw those
in there to make me feel better.
It's B. But the reality is, itshould be like, I want more of a
(28:47):
and I want more of C. Okay, thenanother conversation where we
work on what we need to strivefor is we want less of B. So
how, what do we need to do toclose that gap for B, but really
creating some sort of air gapbetween the two, can preserve
the value of the A and C. Andmaybe you have the b
(29:09):
conversation first, like maybeyou have the construction
constructive conversation first,you close the loop on that, and
then you come back at adifferent point, and you and you
have the A and C conversation,or even just split it up in the
meeting itself. But I reallythink that, like people miss,
they really miss out on all ofthe positivity that can come
(29:32):
from the true recognition ofwhat people are doing well.
Dr. Luévanos (29:38):
Yeah, yeah, I would say that. And you know,
going back to what you had said,I mean, it should, there's,
there shouldn't be anysurprises, as a matter of fact,
whenever you had, whenever youtalked about getting those, your
employees kind of on board withthis whole process. When you are
(30:01):
receiving, you know, feedbackfrom your employees, you know,
kind of at the beginning of thequarter, beginning of the year,
you know, you want to make surethat they're involved in the
feedback loop, that they theythemselves are, you know, kind
of dictating the process aswell. That's what we did. We
would do this in education, and,you know, we would make an
(30:25):
initial observation and justkind of say, Okay, well, what do
you think happened? How did, howdo you think things? And then,
then that's when you're like,Yeah, I agree with you there.
Maybe, maybe we can work on justpick two, or, you know two
things that you would like toimprove upon, and I'm going to
look at those things, but I'malso going to give you some some
(30:48):
some pieces that could be usefulin building up to those areas
that you highlighted. And Ithink inviting that because, you
know, we're so often, you know,our employees, when they receive
feedback, they never ask anyquestions, they just receive it,
(31:09):
and it's kind of like, okay,well, that's the final word.
That's all, you know, that's allwe're, you know, that's all,
it's all that is going to happenfrom this meeting. I got my
annual I'm pretty much done, youknow, yeah, hired, and it
doesn't, you know, it doesn'tmatter now, yeah, and I filed
in, you know, in the back ofyour mind, and then I'll just
(31:29):
wait for, you know, the next youknow person, you know, manager,
or, you know, if managerschange, or you know, I'll just
wait for the next you know,evaluation. But you know, don't
do that to yourself. You'remissing out on a huge, huge
opportunity when you don't askquestions and you don't
Erica D'Eramo (31:47):
Yeah
Dr. Luévanos (31:47):
And you're stuck, you know, you're stuck in your
emotions, you know, fear, thehurt, the shame,
Erica D'Eramo (31:54):
Yeah
Dr. Luévanos (31:55):
Again, acknowledge, you know,
acknowledge that you do need towork. Everybody has, has some
work to do, and nobody, noemployee, is going to show up,
perfect, you know, perfectlyexecuting every single item, you
know, in the on theorganizational objective list.
It's just not going to happen.
Erica D'Eramo (32:15):
And if you are, you're probably that's kind of
boring, then you've topped out.
Right? Like, knowing that that'sit. You topped out. I so that's
such a great point, because, onthe one hand, yes, hopefully the
manager, the leader, is the oneasking for, like, check, you
know, checking accuracy. You cansay, here's what I've perceived.
Where are my blind spots? Whatare you What was your perception
(32:35):
of this? Where might I be wrongon this? Like, help me, you
know, help me understand. Soasking for that challenge, like,
inviting the challenge. What'syour perspective about the root
cause of this? Like, if, if myobservation is accurate, what
are your thoughts on? Like,what's getting in the way? But
even if that's not happeningfrom the leader's perspective,
(32:57):
just like we mentioned, there,there are skills that you can
have in eliciting the feedbackand sort of supplementing what
might be missing from themanager and being really good at
receiving feedback. So that's anexcellent segue. And we and you
can ask, or we can ask when weget feedback, we can ask without
(33:19):
being judgmental or like withoutsounding defensive. If we think
it's inaccurate, we can alwayssay, Ah, I'm so glad you raised
that that was not on my radar.
Can you help me understand sothat I can contextualize it? Can
(33:39):
you help me understand whereyou've witnessed that and how
you're measuring it, so when Iadapt and adjust, I do it with
that in mind, right? Like thatcan help me apply. And if the
leader's like, I can't actuallythink of any instances right
now, well, bingo. You just helpthe leader understand their own
(34:00):
bias or their own likeperception cap works, so yeah,
so being eliciting the feedback,at being the one to ask, ask the
questions, ask for so what? Whatare some best practices that
you've seen that for people whoare receiving feedback, if they
(34:21):
are staying curious and they'reasking questions, what are some
of the best things you've seen?
Dr. Luévanos (34:25):
Yeah, yeah. When I was thinking about it, I was
thinking about metrics. Youknow, so often when we receive
feedback, we don't ask about themetrics used to measure success.
And you know, if you just sitthere and you just are taking it
all in, and you allow theemotions to get the best of you,
(34:47):
then you've lost out on that bigopportunity of asking, Okay, but
what are, what are you measuringme by? Like, what for this
position? What are the metricsbeing used? And where do you,
you know, is there? A spectrumis there, you know, some kind of
line or, you know, number thatyou're looking for, so that you
can actually know how to set upyour goals, you know, for the
(35:11):
quarter, for the year, becausethat's, that's how you know
you're going to achieve them. Soagain, what are the metrics?
What's the time frame forimprovement? I mean, it just
like where, you know, when willthere be a check in on progress?
I mean, so often we leadersleave it off. I mean, they just,
kind of, they kind of say, well,you know, I didn't think about
(35:36):
that, yeah. I mean, I didn'tknow that I was gonna I didn't
think about checking onprogress. I just thought, you
know, I just, I knew I'll haveto get this annual review done.
So, I mean, you're the firstperson that it's asked me. You
know that you know about aprogress check? Yeah, honestly,
sometimes leaders are justdisconnected a little too much,
(35:57):
and as leaders, we do need tocheck in on the progress of
those individual employees, tosee their progress, and also,
just again, as a receiver offeedback, think about when you
want to check in. Don't wait forthem to just be visited on you
make a calendar. Make sureyou're asking your supervisor
(36:20):
Hey, when you know, when can I,when can we have a conversation
about my progress? I mean, thatwill floor your leader. And if
you're out there and you'relooking for a promotion, trust
me, that right there, as an youknow, as an employee, and as a
former, you know, as a leader, Iguess in an organization you'll
you want that from youremployees. You want someone who
(36:43):
is keeping you accountable towhat you said you've committed
to, essentially, and that'sdeveloping your employees.
Because when you develop youremployees, you're partnering
with them, and that's apartnership in the organization
that can flourish and improvethat organization's performance
overall,
Erica D'Eramo (37:03):
Yeah, I think that, um, that part around,
like, how are we measuring this?
How will we know can be such apowerful conversation, and this
is where, if you're, if you arein coaching, this becomes, like,
part and parcel of everycoaching conversation, right?
Like, how will we know for thecoaching engagement if we've
reached our getting really,really clear on problem
(37:26):
definition, getting clear onwhat makes it important? Like,
all of these things make youbetter at eliciting better
feedback and end at givingbetter feedback and setting
better goals. But that part ofwe can. We can manage upwards
when we get vague feedback, youknow, I will we just, we need
you to be like a brighterpresence in the office. Okay,
(37:49):
how will we know? How are wemeasuring that? And again,
sometimes we don't ask that. Inorder to truly get the answer,
we ask that because if theanswer is, oh, actually, it's
just my total perception of howI'm feeling that day, that
awareness for the leader canhelp. Can help focus this,
(38:10):
refocus the conversation onthings that are actionable, that
are impactful. I do, I think,though, that it's we are all
humans, right? And sometimes,even if the feedback, regardless
of whether the feedback isaccurate or not, it can be very
vulnerable to receive feedback.
(38:34):
It can elicit a lot of emotions,and emotions that we might even
feel shame about feeling becausewhatever, why do I even care
what this person thinks aboutme? I hear that a lot from
clients like, why am I so upsetabout this? I don't even care
what they think about me. But Ido think that it can be helpful
to remember that we probablycare. Because ultimately, this
(38:56):
is important for some for somevalid core reason, right? Either
we want to be seen asprofessional. It's part of our
identity. We want to be a goodcolleague. You know, all of
these elements we associateourselves with, being an
achiever and an A student andgold star and all of those
things. So it's okay to feelsome emotions. We can
(39:20):
acknowledge them, say thanksemotions for signaling to me
that this is important and andthen be present and curious.
Dr. Luévanos (39:31):
Yeah, and, you know, and go through it in your
head. I mean, I often try tovisualize what's going to happen
in a feedback session before Igo into, you know, the office or
have a sit down with with anemployee or colleague. You know,
it just depends. And you know,remember, you know, visualizing
(39:52):
how that person may respond andand also, you know, one thing
that you made me think about,you know. Is, you know,
consider, consider that thatbackground of that employee, I
mean it, you know, like, I guesswhat's so near and dear to my
heart is, you know, when, whenpeople are transitioning into
(40:14):
the workforce that have beenout, out of the for such a long
time, you know, like, and Ithink about, you know, like,
stay at home moms, you know,that have been outside of the
workforce for any period oftime, and they're transitioning
in, you know, just remember, youknow, employee background.
That's why I always emphasizerelationships. I mean, you know,
(40:36):
it's, it's so essential just toknow one employee and to give
the kind of feedback that reallytouches on those nodes, you
know, of growth in a way thatconnects with them and gives
them some kind of autonomy forthat, for that growth to happen,
you know, inviting them in tothat, you know, into The space
(40:59):
of making a plan you know forthemselves to grow. You know if
you're in an industry now,again, not all industries are
created the same, and Icompletely acknowledge that. But
when you can, if you are in asituation or within an
organization or an industry thatcan accommodate that, do it?
(41:21):
Remember, we're remember. Youknow, really, who is going to
push you in terms ofperformance? It's your it's your
employee base, those that yousupervise, your colleagues. You
want to create an organizationthat is generative of that
performance that you're lookingfor?
Erica D'Eramo (41:39):
Yeah, I think that's why it's so important
that we handle it well on bothsides of it, that the manager
handles giving the feedbackwell, and that those of us
receiving the feedback, even ifwe don't agree with it, even if
it's delivered in adisrespectful way. I'm not
saying to lie down and take it.
There are ways to handle it, butmaking sure that we don't close
the door to getting the feedbackin the future is probably going
(42:01):
to be the most beneficial forus, because as soon as it goes
underground, or it getstriangulated, or we, you know,
people are like, Oh, last timeit was just, you know, that
conversation was so stressfulwith that employee, I just don't
want to do it again. So they'reless likely to come early and
often with the constructivefeedback, and then we just lose
(42:23):
sight of it. We lose the data,and whether the data is accurate
or not, it's still valuable tous, we still then understand at
least that's how we're beingperceived, that's going to
impact us in positive ornegative ways. So keeping that
door open, retaining access tothe information is almost always
going to serve you better thannot. That does mean, though,
(42:44):
that we have to have a filterfor what we do with it. Then
just because we get the feedbackdoesn't mean we need to adapt to
it immediately. Sometimes wesay, Huh, well, isn't that
interesting that they think thator they see that? Okay, now,
what like?
Dr. Luévanos (43:03):
Yeah, yeah. You know, a couple of things or
something to remember. I reallylike this, 54321, technique. You
know, if you start feelingyourself when you're receiving
feedback, take it. Take asecond. Ask if you need, if you
need to, you know, if you needto take a breather or go take a
bathroom break to just absorband process and follow up with
(43:24):
some some questions. Do that,okay? I mean, yeah, you're doing
yourself a huge service. Becausesometimes, you know, there are
just certain emotions, and weare all working on our you know
that emotional spectrum, youknow, anger, frustration, you
know it just those things. Justsometimes our work, because we
get so passionate with whatwe're doing, they trigger us. If
(43:47):
someone says you're not doingsuch a great job, and depending
on who that person is that'sdelivering and how they deliver,
but give yourself, you know,give yourself some grace. Take a
breather, take a bathroom break.
Don't feel Don't, don't, don'tbe afraid to ask for those
things as you're receiving thefeedback, and then come back,
you know, more level headed andready to engage with some
(44:07):
questions so that you can betterunderstand that. And you know,
on the other end, for leaders,allow that space for them to
process this stuff, because, youknow, this is some of, some of
the stuff that you have tooffer, it could be really heavy
for your employees. I mean,again, the ideal situation is
that they don't your employeesdon't bring, you know, they're
(44:31):
outside into the organization.
You know that what their outsidestresses are, but that
inevitably happens and they'rebringing stuff with them.
Erica D'Eramo (44:40):
Yeah
Dr. Luévanos (44:41):
They just need a sec, let them process. It's, you
know, it's okay. It's not goingto ruin, you know, the day it
may, it probably will even helpthat interaction go even better.
Erica D'Eramo (44:53):
Yeah, building those, building those good
interactions, putting it's likeeach one is a vote for a more
positive. Of trustingrelationship. But for folks who
don't know the 54321, technique,let's see. It's five things you
see, right? So this is just,this is for emotional
management, and it can be goodin any high stakes conversation.
(45:14):
It can be great before you takethe stage for a TED talk, if
that's something you're going todo or presenting, you know, to
the C suite, or whatever thatis. So it just brings you back
into your body and helps toregulate that nervous system. So
it's, it's just noticing in yourenvironment, five things that
you see, four things that youcan touch, three things that you
(45:34):
can hear, two things you cansmell, one thing you can taste.
And then, you know, book endedby a breath on each side. And
that sounds like a lot, but youcan do it pretty quickly. You
can do it in like, a few secondsonce you become Yeah, used to
that practice, so, yeah, good,good, good, catch.
Dr. Luévanos (45:53):
And I don't advise smelling salts.
Erica D'Eramo (45:56):
No. I mean, sometimes the one thing you can
smell is not pleasant. I mean,it's okay, it's not about it's
not about pleasantness, it'sabout being grounded in your
body. But yeah, I thinkultimately, if we just remember
all information is usefulinformation, even when it's not
accurate, then we can worktowards accuracy and
(46:18):
understanding what what would bemore accurate.
Yeah
Dr. Luévanos (46:25):
I think we covered a quite a bit of ground. What do
you think?
Erica D'Eramo (46:28):
I think we I do think we covered quite a bit.
And for those folks who arelistening and thinking that they
want to get better at providingfeedback, or maybe just notice
that, like giving feedback takesit out of them. They're
exhausted. They're definitelynot looking forward to the end
(46:50):
of your feedback conversationsthat are probably starting to
happen right around now, feelfree to reach out, Anthony or
myself. We would love to have achat, and even if it's just not
in the context of coaching, justto chat, we can, I'm sure, we
can help reframe that and getyou back on track for giving
feedback, and vice versa, right?
If you're receiving feedback andit's not good feedback, we can
(47:12):
help you.
Dr. Luévanos (47:16):
And guys, if you don't have Erica as your coach,
you're missing out.
Erica D'Eramo (47:20):
Oh, I do think we're in tis the season. This is
a very common conversation in alot of my in a lot of my
coaching conversations rightnow, and for better or worse,
right now, the two pierscoaching roster is pretty,
(47:41):
pretty full. So yeah, if you, ifyou want to schedule a
conversation, I would say, geton the calendar sooner. If
there's any spots left, I don'teven, I don't even know,
actually, I think I might startcoaching at 7am but anyways,
Anthony is always a pleasure tohave such a great thought
partner. Thank you so much forhaving us chat.
Dr. Luévanos (48:03):
My pleasure.
Thanks for having me.
Erica D'Eramo (48:05):
And for folks who are listening. If you want the
the summary of this episode, youcan head on over to the Two
Piers podcast. Two Pierswebsite, where you can find the
player, or you can read througha little summary of this
episode. So thanks for joiningus and we will see you next
episode.
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