May 2, 2025 • 37 mins
In this episode of “The UMB Pulse,” we hear from Deborah Shlian, MD ’72, MBA, an accomplished alumna of the University of Maryland School of Medicine.
Shlian shares her career journey from being a medical doctor to becoming a successful writer in the medical thriller genre. She discusses her early inspirations, partnership with her husband, Joel, and their collaborative ventures in both medicine and writing.
The conversation explores her transition to running a medical management consulting firm, establishing a niche in physician executive searches, and ultimately retiring to focus on her passion for writing. The episode also highlights her contributions to nonfiction literature, especially in spotlighting women leaders in STEM fields.
00:00 Introduction to Dr. Deborah Shlian
02:25 Early Life and Medical Education
03:35 Career in Medical Management
10:11 Transition to Writing
11:40 Writing Medical Thrillers
20:23 Women in STEM and Leadership
26:44 Challenges and Future Projects
32:19 Advice for Aspiring Physicians and Writers
35:22 Conclusion and Final Thoughts
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Visit our website at umaryland.edu/pulse or email us at umbpulse@umaryland.edu.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Charles Schelle (00:00):
Earlier this season on the UMB Pulse, we
heard from a University ofMaryland Baltimore alumna who
wrote her autobiographyretelling the story of her life
and her career in the PeaceCorps.
Well, on this edition of thepodcast, we have a writer of a
different ilk.
Dana Rampolla (00:16):
Yes.
Today we're talking to Dr.
Deborah Shlian.
She's a 1972 graduate of theUniversity of Maryland School of
Medicine where she earned herMD.
She also earned an MBA fromUCLA's Anderson School of
Management.
So she's been a medical doctor,and then we get to a part where
she's a-a writer.
And then there's a whole lot ofin between where she had her own
(00:38):
business.
She's partnered on most of theseventures with her husband.
So it will be a really greatopportunity to learn about how
you can change your path in lifewhile still letting some of
those things overlap.
Charles Schelle (00:50):
We will definitely dive in about
Deborah's writing in both thenonfiction and fiction worlds
where her specialty is themedical mystery thriller genre.
Deborah has garnered multipleliterary awards, including the
Florida Book Awards Gold Medal.
And like Dana said, Deborahcollaborates with her husband
(01:10):
Joel on some of those novels,which includes"Rabbit in the
Moon," and that book hasreceived numerous awards.
Dana Rampolla (01:17):
And beyond fiction.
Dr.
Shlian has contributed tononfiction literature, notably
editing"Lessons Learned," whichincludes stories from women
leaders in STEM.
It profiles 31 women who havemade significant strides in
science, technology,engineering, and mathematics.
Several of them are actuallyfrom University of Maryland,
Baltimore.
Charles Schelle (01:37):
A woman of many, many talents.
And how does she keep it all inorder from one project to the
next?
Well, we are going to find outon this edition of The UMB
Pulse.
Jena Frick (01:51):
You are listening to the heartbeat of the University
of Maryland, Baltimore, the UMBPulse.
Dana Rampolla (02:05):
Welcome Deborah.
Deborah Shlian (02:06):
Thank you so much for having me.
Dana Rampolla (02:08):
Well, we are excited to talk to you because
you've spent many years being adoctor, um, in the field, but
you've also spent a number ofyears now writing and
co-authoring, um, a handful ofbooks that as an avid reader,
I'm excited to talk to youabout, especially because you co
cover a couple of differentgenres.
So, let's kick it off and talk alittle bit about what inspired
(02:29):
you to choose the University ofMaryland, Baltimore, for your
medical education.
Deborah Shlian (02:34):
Well, first of all, I was born and raised in
Baltimore.
My dad is a physician.
He is a proud graduate of theUniversity of Maryland School of
Medicine Class 43 December,which was uh, the year that the
World War II the graduates were,um, of the med school, actually
graduated six months early inorder to join the Army.
So I was growing up, he was myrole model.
(02:56):
Uh, almost all of his colleagueswere University of Maryland
School of Medicine grads.
He was my, not only my rolemodel, but he took me to, uh,
um, house calls.
He took me on gr on rounds withpatients.
So I never thought about goingto any other med school, but the
University of Maryland MedSchool.
Charles Schelle (03:13):
We'll talk about your, your love for
writing your, your books andeverything in a bit, but
continuing down down the path ofthe medical education, you have
a, company or business, dealingwith the medical field.
Tell us a little bit about whatthat is and, some of the, the
challenges you, you facelaunching your business and how
(03:34):
it's going now.
Deborah Shlian (03:35):
I think I need to give you a little bit of
background.
After my residency, my husbandJoel and I, and by the way, Joel
was a graduate of this schoolalso a year.
He was a year ahead of me.
We went out to Los Angeles andwe became partners at Kaiser
Permanente, which was anintegrated group model, HMO,
and, um, one of the firstmanaged care organizations in
(03:56):
the United States in the 1970s.
And after, um, 10 years ofworking as a clinician at
Kaiser, I was recruited to runstudent health service.
I became the medical directorfor, uh, UCLA Student Health
Service, which was the primarycare facility for all 33,000
students on campus.
And in that role, my bossdecided that I needed to get an
(04:16):
MBA.
Um, he felt I needed to get moreinvolved in administration.
And so I, uh, actually finishedthat degree in 1988 with my
husband.
And as a result of that degree,I became part of the senior
management team, which allowedme to attend policy meetings
that here too far, I hadn't beeninvited to because there were
only non positions that came tothose meetings.
(04:37):
But at the same time, I wasgetting calls from recruiters
about other opportunities in,um, medical management in
California.
Um, what they said was, youknow, after almost 20 years of
being a clinician and along withthis MBA, um, and I'm working in
managed two managed caresettings that I was a strong
candidate for a number ofopportunities in, in, uh, both
(04:58):
Southern and NorthernCalifornia.
So even though I was happy atUCLA, I was curious, I wanted to
explore a couple of theseoptions.
So I had never worked withrecruiters before, so I had no
idea what to expect.
Someone would call my office andthey would tell me about an
opportunity.
Um, they actually asked me if Iwanted to be considered as a
candidate.
And by the way, if I didn'tknow, if I wasn't interested,
did I know somebody else whomight be interested?
(05:20):
What was surprising what theserecruiters often had very little
information about theorganization.
They asked few relevantquestions, um, they really
weren't interested in, in mybackground that much.
I mean, other than, you know,was I right for that particular
job?
They really asked me nothingabout my interests or my career
goals, so that when I didinterview, I often found the
opportunity was totallydifferent from the recruiter's
(05:42):
description.
And as a result of thesedisappointing searches, I
realized that there was anunfulfilled niche of full
service, what I call a fullservice, comprehensive search
consulting in the managed caremarket.
'cause there were a lot ofpeople out there that called
themselves recruiters, but noother firm in that specific
market had somebody with mycredentials.
So I, I thought I could bring aunique perspective to searches
(06:04):
and the other, what I call valueadded was my willingness to
develop long-term relationshipswith physicians, to actually
guide them through the wholeprocess.
Um, even putting'em on themanaged care career path and
mentoring them along the way.
And, um, as I said, I had, I hadreally had no experience with
anyone in the search industrywho was gonna invest any time in
my career.
(06:26):
And I didn't think that anybodywould, had my hands on
experience of, uh, ourunderstanding of what the, um,
what the talent pool was outthere.
While I was at UCLA, I started aorganization called, that was
part of the LA uh, businessschool and the School of Public
Health.
And what we did is we met once aweek, once a month rather, we
(06:46):
had, uh, speakers and we had,um, talks about leadership.
So I knew that there was a bigpool of potential candidates.
I guess to answer your questionbut despite the sense that I, I
thought I could do it better, ittook months of soul searching
before I actually took that leapto make the transition from
physician manager to medicalmanagement search consultant,
because my professors at UCLAtold me that most businesses
(07:08):
fail more than succeed, uh,especially consulting firms.
They said that maybe one in fiveactually makes it.
And so if I really wanted to bean entrepreneur, I had to be
willing to take that risk.
That really wasn't something Iwas thinking about before, but
my husband really encouraged me.
And so starting in 1993, I beganto very slowly build a firm that
initially concentrated only onphysician executive searches.
(07:32):
I worked with doctors one-on-oneand I actually, uh, spent a lot
of time evaluating the careergoals, their life priorities,
their networking.
I, uh, net reworking theirresumes.
I developed a better interviewtechniques for some of them, and
when I did make a placement, Iactually helped to come to,
negotiate their contract Thatwas very successful.
(07:53):
And, uh, by word of mouth, Istarted to expand my client base
and they actually startedworking outside of managed care
to work with academicinstitutions and, uh, research
organizations, um, even someother consulting firms.
And in 1994, um, my husband Joeljoined me as president of the
company.
And then in 1998, weincorporated as Shlian and
(08:14):
Associates, we moved our main,uh, base of operations to
Florida because both sets ofparents had very significant
healthcare issues and we reallyfelt that we needed to be there
to help with, with, uh, withtheir care.
I mean, we were flying back andforth between California and,
uh, Florida at the time.
Now a lot of small businessowners feel they have to expand
(08:34):
in order to demonstrate theirsuccess.
However, and I always rememberthis, that there was a, uh, Dun
and Bradstreet, uh, study thatsaid it's longevity rather than
growth is, that's the realmeasure of achievement.
Companies that last three yearsor more are more likely to make
it.
And here's a quote and I'm gonnahave to read it'cause I can't
remember it.
But"If you begin a company tocapitalize on the wisdom and
(08:57):
personal service of a keyindividual, namely you, big is
bad.
So adding staff and projects canspread the core value of your
firm so thinly that customersare dissatisfied.
In the knowledge based servicefirm, there's no economies of
scale." So basically one of thebiggest decisions that we had to
make early on was how to, um,position ourselves.
(09:18):
And Joel was pretty, um, I wouldsay ion in saying that, that if
we maintained ourselves as apetite business, that we would
have an advantage.
We actually, uh, had anopportunity to join a large
national recruiting company atone point, but instead what we
did was we developed, um,affiliations with over a dozen
associates that had officesacross the country.
(09:40):
All of them had very significanthealthcare backgrounds, so we
would call on them for specificsearches.
And I guess the bottom line isthat, being your own boss is
definitely not for the faint ofheart.
You know, the fact that we weresuccessful has really been very
sweet.
And I would say that for me, um,the shift from a management
position and a, and what was ahighly bureaucratic and
(10:01):
hierarchical organization tobecoming the CEO of my own, uh,
company, has been probably themost exciting and positive
experience in my professionallife.
Now, when Covid began andstaffing, you know, started to
decrease, uh, companies, uh,weren't sure what was gonna
happen in the future.
We actually decided to what Icall retire.
We still continue to advise someof our associates, but we're now
(10:24):
concentrating on otherinterests.
I went back to writing bothfiction and nonfiction and
actually, uh, Joel is helping mewith a nonfiction project that
we're working on right now.
And then for Joel, it's beenphotography.
So I guess that's a long, a longway to answer your question The
whole idea of starting my owncompany was definitely not
something that I ever thought Iwould do.
Dana Rampolla (10:45):
Were there ever times where you looked back and
you thought, geez, how did Iwind up here?
What type of medicine did youpractice and were there periods
or times when you missed that?
Deborah Shlian (10:55):
Well, we always, uh, we practice family medicine.
We have boards in familymedicine, and I, I actually,
when we moved to Florida, we didget our licenses, so we were
doing some volunteer work.
I, I've always felt that I'm adoctor, you know, that is my,
part of my main identity.
And so whether I'm doingconsulting or whether I'm doing,
uh, actually taking care ofpatients one-on-one, I feel
(11:17):
that's who I am.
And I have to say that, to givea plug to the University of
Maryland School of Medicine, Ithink that they, when we went to
school, their clinical programwas fabulous.
And I, um, to this day I'm toldthat, I teach, uh, sometimes
I've taught, um, uh, hands-onclinical diagnosis and that, you
know, people have alwaysimpressed.
(11:38):
I have to thank the school forthat.
Dana Rampolla (11:40):
You've started to mention the writing.
I know that you write sometimeswith your husband, as you
pointed out.
How has your experience as aphysician influenced your
writing, particularly incrafting your medical thrillers?
Deborah Shlian (11:53):
I've always loved to write, I mean, when I
was a kid, I, I had my ownlittle newspaper called The
Chatterbox.
Oh, fun High School.
I, I worked for the newspaperand, uh, in camp I did plays
and, um.
Um, at the end of the senioryear of high school, I wrote,
um, I, I skit that was called"Those Were the Years that
Were," which was based on DavidFrost"That was the Week That
(12:15):
Was." I don't, I'm sure I'm tooold for a lot of people to
remember that.
But anyway, that was a big hit.
So I always like to write, butmy father said to me.
Writing may not be a career thatis necessarily gonna pay the
bills.
And since you say you wanna be adoctor, that if you're a
physician, you can always write.
So the truth is the matter thatwhen I was, uh, especially when
(12:35):
I was really full-timepracticing, I did a lot of
clinical research projects.
I wrote, uh, non-fictionarticles and, uh, articles and
books and nonfiction.
But, um.
And I say this sometimes when Igive a book talk is, you know,
you can't, and this is reallytrue, you can't live in Los
Angeles very long withoutgetting hit by the Hollywood bug
because everybody means issomething else on the side.
(12:58):
You know, your dentist is aproducer, your lawyer is a, is
an agent, and every waiter andwaitress is an actor.
It wasn't really until I readRobin Cook's book"Coma," you
know, he's an ophthalmologistand I thought.
That was one of the best, uh, Ithink, medical thrillers that
has ever been written.
Um, I thought, gee, if he can dothat, maybe I can do that too.
(13:20):
So, you know, it's notsurprising that because I'm a
physician that, um, you know,they say, write what you know.
So obviously, um, I, I have tosay that, having, uh, the
experience of, of theopportunity to get to know so
many different individuals overthe years to learn about their
lives from a kind of intimateperspective as a doctor, I.
Um, that's I think, quite uniqueand that's given me a breadth
(13:43):
of, of experiences and, and, um,uh, for which to draw my
characters and situations.
Now, Joel and I, as you said,uh, collaborated on two
successfully published medicalmysteries while we were still
living in Los Angeles.
One was with Simon and Schusterand one was Berkeley Books.
But, um, we had an agent at thetime and she insist she wanted
(14:04):
us to quit medicine and, andthat was not my intent of, you
know, I, I loved writing, but I,I certainly didn't want to give
up medicine.
So it wasn't really until wemoved to Florida that we
actually, I.
Finished a book that we had beenworking on for a number of
years, which was, uh, calledRabbit in the Moon.
It's actually a medical mysterythriller, but it's
(14:25):
international.
It's based in China.
And, uh, that book became, um,uh, a bestseller and it was
published by Ocean ViewPublishing, which was a small
paperback, a publishing firmthat, uh, focuses on mysteries
and thrillers.
It's won a number of literaryawards, including the gold medal
for the, uh, Florida Book Award.
We got to meet the governor,which is really fun.
(14:46):
The audio book version even wonan honorable mention, uh, at the
Hollywood Book, uh, Festival.
So encouraged by thosesuccesses.
I've written, uh, five newmedical mystery thrillers.
Uh, four are in a series thatI've co-written with, um, a
colleague from UCLA, Linda Reed,and, uh, one of them I wrote
myself called"Silent Survivor."I wrote that a couple of years
(15:07):
ago.
I would say one thing that themost important lesson that, that
I've learned from, uh, fromthese endeavors is that
physicians should developoutside interests, um, outside
of medicine.
Even if you combine them withmedicine so that you know when
you transition to retirement,you don't completely lose your
identity because I, I have a lotof colleagues who, uh, you know,
(15:28):
have got, have actually sunkinto depression the moment that
they're no longer calleddoctors.
Charles Schelle (15:32):
Yeah, absolutely.
I think, as Dana could probablytell you, we have a tremendous
amount of physicians andscientists and people from all
sorts of corners of UMB who haveother talents, whether their
artwork is published in 1807, orthey play the piano, organ, or,
uh, you know, or PresidentJarrell and, and his, uh,
(15:55):
blacksmithing and, and iron workthat, that he does, where, um,
he's been selected into, uh,juried art shows.
But it all takes a bunch ofdifferent types of creative
energy and some can be, um, moreeffortless than others.
And so you're both in fictionand nonfiction and sounds like
the, the, the fiction is, isweighing heavily in your kind of
(16:19):
priorities right now, but do youfeel like one is, you can get
into the mood or, or the,mindset to, to start writing
and, and the words come moreeasily than, than the other?
Deborah Shlian (16:32):
You mean fiction versus nonfiction?
Yeah,
Charles Schelle (16:34):
Fiction versus nonfiction.
Deborah Shlian (16:35):
It depends on the project that I'm working on.
I right now, I, I actually hadhad, uh, straddled two projects,
one nonfiction, one fiction.
The fiction, uh, is the last, inthis last book so far on the
series, um, about a radio talkshow host who solves, uh, a
murder mystery.
I think in general, I would saythat for me, fiction is more
(16:57):
challenging because, you know, Ireally believe that I always do
a lot of, a lot of research whenI'm writing fiction.
With nonfiction, you kind ofhave your, your, uh.
You know, you're working foralready, but for fiction, um,
for example, the book that wedid about China, we spent almost
five years researching Chinesehistory because the book takes
(17:18):
place in 1989 during the veryshort student democracy movement
that ended at Tiananmen Square.
And, uh, we wanted to make surethat every detail as far as, uh,
the situations that even thepeople that were there were
accurate in a book I did called"Silent Survivor," which is
about, uh, um, part of this plotis about military sexual
(17:39):
assault.
I actually interviewed a numberof women who had experienced,
uh, that and because I wanted tomake sure again, that that was
realistic.
But the last book that we did,which is called"Dirty Deeds,"
which takes place in New York.
I hadn't spent much time in NewYork, so I had to do a lot of
research about the place,because it takes place in
Queens.
And of course, and it also takesplace in 2008.
(18:00):
Uh, we have one issue withhacking.
So I had to know what wasavailable technologically at the
time, you know, that kind ofthing.
Um, so I guess, you know, toanswer your question, I would
say I'm more challenged byfiction.
I spend a lot more time before Iwrite a, a novel thinking about
the the characters and the plotbefore I actually sit down and
(18:22):
write it.
With nonfiction, we pretty muchcan start right away.
Charles Schelle (18:27):
Which makes so much sense because you're,
you're creating a story, but ithas to be based in reality.
And you, you wanna make surethat reality is as true to life
as possible to make the made upstory believable.
Right.
I understand you have two ofyour novels been optioned for
screenplays, and, and I knowfrom talking with, um, authors
and, and producers before,sometimes that translation from
(18:50):
book to, to the film to thescreen, all that research may be
adjusted for, for that, thatmedium.
And maybe you get away fromreality a little bit more.
Can you share, uh, any updates,on the progress of, of those
screenplays and, how you'reinvolved in the adaptation?
Deborah Shlian (19:10):
Well, actually the, the two books that were
optioned were optioned, were ourfirst two novels, and, um, we
actually got as far as gettingarticles in, in, Variety and,
and, uh, Hollywood Reporter.
So we thought, for sure thesewere gonna get made.
But typically lots of books getoptioned.
They don't necessarily get made.
We even optioned, uh,"Wednesday's Child," which was
our second novel twice, and it,and it didn't get made.
(19:31):
But at that time, there werevery few opportunities to even
get involved in the writing.
They said if you're a novelist,you stay in your lane.
You're not, you're not gonnawrite the screenplay.
I think some of that isdifferent now because I do see
some authors who are allowed toat least get involved in
screenwriting.
Because I've been so busy withmy recruiting business and now
with, um, some of thesenon-fiction projects that I've
(19:52):
been working on, I haven't goneback to actually see if there's
an opportunity.
I think my series would make agreat series for.
Some of the, streaming,opportunities out there, like
Netflix and so on.
So Linda and I are looking atsome of that, but right now,
nothing is being done.
It's basically, I have, I havethe rights to all of my books,
so if anybody out there is, uh,producer or director, feel free
(20:15):
to gimme a call.
Dana Rampolla (20:18):
Well, maybe our podcast will help get the word
out for you.
That would be terrific.
Let's go, uh, flip to the otherside and talk a little bit about
your, um, your"Lessons Learned"series and how it spotlighted
women in STEM fields such asphysicians and, um.
Some, actually some people fromhere at UMB faculty, students
(20:39):
and recent retirees.
Um, that series heard from DonnaL.
Parker, professor of medicineand senior associate dean for
undergraduate medical education.
And then Kathleen Neuzil.
Dr.
Neuzil has been a professor anda researcher here at UMB for
many years.
So can you give us a little bitof information about the current
climate of scientists andphysicians, um, in not only
(21:03):
maybe some of those people thatyou've written about, if you've
kept in touch with them or ifthere's any other, um, maybe
books that you are thinkingabout writing that covers some
of those same areas or any ofthe other true to life areas
that you referred to.
Deborah Shlian (21:19):
Oh, the, the, um, idea of writing those two
books were contracted actuallyby the American Association for
Physician Leadership.
They were the publisher and theycame to me to, um, ask me about
actually updating a monographthat I had written in the
nineties about where women werein terms of leadership, because
as a member of thatorganization, I was not that
(21:39):
happy to see.
So few women in leadershiproles, and I felt that, you
know, we needed to find out whatwere the reasons.
Um, so with the, the, actuallythe lessons learned stories from
women physician leaders was thethird update of the nineties
book because in 2012 I did asecond version, and then right
before Covid, they asked me todo the book, this book yet
(22:02):
again.
That in that book I identifiedabout 33 women, including, and I
was trying very hard to findwomen from University of
Maryland med school and waslucky to find, uh, as you said,
Donna, um, and uh, I'm trying tothink who was the other person
now.
Dana Rampolla (22:18):
Dr.
Neuzil, she was the director forthe Center of Vaccine
Development and Global Health.
Deborah Shlian (22:23):
I have kept up with all of them as a matter of
fact, but what I did is insteadof my interviewing them, what I,
I thought that it would be muchmore compelling to, because I
like to write fiction and I knowthat people like stories.
I had them write their ownstories to really tell how their
career paths, what were theobstacles and the challenges
that they faced.
(22:43):
We did several iterations.
I was the editor and I actuallyhad my chapter in there as well.
But, um, what was veryinteresting was, was, uh, so
many of the obstacles andchallenges were, were so similar
to all of them, and yet thesewomen were so successful and it
finally made it to more seniorroles, um, with the book on.
(23:04):
So that, that book was verysuccessful.
And the next year they asked meto write a book about women
leaders in stem.
Again, I look to the Universityof Maryland.
Um, Ronna Hertzano is in thatbook.
Uh, she's now within, I, she, Ihope she's still with NIH, but
she was, she had moved to NIH.
She's an ear, nose and throat,and also a PhD.
So these are all women who arePhDs.
(23:25):
Some have MDs as well as PhDs.
Claire, Fraser, who was theoutgoing head of the Institute
for Genomic Sciences is in thatbook.
Um, Rita Calwell, who is a, uma, she's 87 I think now.
She was one of the first headsof the National First Women Head
of the National ScienceFoundation.
(23:45):
Again, I had these women writetheir own stories.
I edited those.
And, um, they're amazingstories.
If anybody's read the fiction"Lessons in Chemistry," uh, I
don't know if it's a, the, thatbecame a, uh, a series on
television.
Um, but it's a, it's a fictionalversion of what.
(24:06):
A woman named Emily is, uh, whatis her name?
Um, her last name is Za.
Um, she, what she has to gothrough to become a PhD and to
become a, a scientist.
Well, these women are just likeher, only their real life
scientists who had to go throughall kinds of hoops to make it
as, as senior leaders in, in,uh, in STEM.
(24:27):
So, so those two books, I'mhoping those will act as role
models and mentors for youngwomen who are interested in, in
medicine and stem.
Um, there are a lot of, I knowthere are a lot of medical
students now who are thinkingabout dual credential, you know,
having MDs and PhDs so that theycan find lots of women in both
(24:49):
books who look like them and whoare, you know, have been very
successful and hopefully, um,that will not only.
Encourage them to becomescientists, but also to become
leaders in science.
Charles Schelle (25:03):
With the current environment where,
leaders of all types are, areput in, uh, extraordinary
circumstances with pulling offunding.
I was wondering if you couldforesee maybe a, a sequel or a
follow up to some of theseleaders about the, the new
challenges they're facing thatare unprecedented.
Um, because Kathy Neuzilactually has been in the, the
news this week, uh, according toScience Magazine, she's been
(25:26):
working with the Fogarty,Center, with NIH, but she's been
put in this position where it'seither accept a position at
Indian Health Services orresign, and she told, um, the
news outlet that she'll make herdecision, over, over the
weekend.
So, People who've fought to getin these great positions are,
are now, almost powerless.
And I was wondering maybe whatyour perspective on that is or,
(25:48):
or just of what you would wantto kind of maybe follow up on
some of these leaders to, tohear what they're going through
that they could maybe share someof that wisdom to, um, future,
um, STEM leaders.
Deborah Shlian (26:01):
I'm certainly, I, I actually have on my list
call Kathy next week.
I just didn't wanna bother'causeI had read about that.
I'm, I'm very upset about what'shappening in, in, in terms of,
of, um, science and the factthat so many of my colleagues
have either lost grants.
Or you know, or concerned thatthey may lose grants.
And I've talked to a number ofyoung people who are, you know,
(26:22):
considering whether they evenwant to go to medical school or
become PhDs.
So I don't know that this wouldbe a necessarily follow up book,
but I think we need to talkabout it more.
And I'm actually going to beattending a meeting with the
American Association forAdvancement of Science.
They're doing a, a Zoom to justto discuss this issue because I
don't, I don't, I'm not surewhat we can do right now, except
(26:43):
to speak up.
Dana Rampolla (26:44):
Deborah, I wanted to talk a little bit about the,
maybe the disparity between menand women who make up, um,
either medical school classes ortake leadership roles, are able
to take leadership roles inhealthcare.
It seems to be still a very maledominated profession.
What do you see as the biggestbarriers for women advancing in
these positions?
Deborah Shlian (27:05):
So when I went to medical school, there were
less than 10% of the class werewomen Today, I think the
University of Maryland School ofMedicine classes as much as 60%.
But in terms of leadership,we're not even maybe 16% across
the healthcare spectrum.
And I see that as, as a bigproblem because we have so many
talented women now who are, asmy books have shown, are, are,
(27:28):
uh, have all the expertise thatyou need to be in these roles.
So what are some of theobstacles?
Well, some of them are personal.
There still is this impostersyndrome that unfortunately more
women than men seem to, uh,possess.
And these are maybe highly, um,achieving women who just feel
that they're not.
Qualified enough for aparticular role in, in a
(27:50):
leadership role.
When I was doing recruiting, Ifound that, um, if I had a, a
job that I felt was perfect fora particular woman candidate, I
vetted her.
I check to see that she was aperfect, uh, fit for this
particular organization.
I send her her, um, a jobdescription, and then I'd
literally count the secondsuntil she would tell me what,
(28:11):
what specific skill, or forwhatever reason, she maybe
wasn't quite right for the job.
But if I sent that same jobdescription to a male candidate.
Not a second pass before theywere, and they were not
necessarily as qualified.
They had the confidence to saythat they could do the job.
So that's something that we haveto overcome personally in terms
of, uh, what I would sayinstitutionally, there still is
(28:33):
gender bias.
There still is, um, the sense ofwhat, you know, what makes a
good leader.
You know, what, what, whatgender makes a good leader,
which, which is not, you know,has not been born out in terms
of, of studies.
Um, there is still the issueabout work-life balance.
Um, unfortunately even theyounger women that I've talked
to tell me that, you know, whenthey, uh, have, uh, to make a
(28:56):
decision about having a family,how do they balance that, that,
that they're taking on more ofthe caregiving roles than, than
the, than the guys are.
I mean, some are, are, you know,are helping more for sure, but
it's, it's still not 50-50.
So that becomes, uh, a problem.
And then the other thing is thatthere haven't been enough
mentors and role models, andthat's again, what my hope my
(29:19):
books are providing is, is atleast some, you know, uh, some
way for people to see that therereally are people out there
that, that you can, um, you canidentify with as, as, um, as a
mentor or as a role model.
Charles Schelle (29:34):
I remember you had one UMB student who's
actually still, I believe stillhere, um, completing her
program, Aishwarya Iyer, she wasa student of the, the year in,
in 2022.
She served as a, mentor forthe,, UMB Cure Scholars, which
helps, students in WestBaltimore pursue those fields.
So we have our very own UMBstudents trying to help that
(29:56):
next generation, um, find apath.
So it's great to hear, and I'mglad you highlighted her too.
Deborah Shlian (30:01):
Yeah, well, I, she and I talked a lot about
that because I was very, veryhappy to see that now that
University of Maryland medschool has provided that
opportunity, um, because I, Ithink that's so critical.
Charles Schelle (30:14):
We've covered a lot and you mentioned that you
have some projects on your plateright now that you're focusing
on.
So what's next for you?
What's grabbing your attentionright now?
Deborah Shlian (30:25):
I have a contract that with my husband to
write a book about dualphysician marriages.
The American, uh, Association ofPhysician Leadership said that
there is only one book that theycould find out there that was
about medical marriages, and itwas basically written in the
nineties, and it was written bya therapist about male
physicians married to, you know,to women who were not doctors,
(30:46):
and most of them were in therapyand not very happy.
So what we have done is we'vefound, we've identified over 30
couples, several of whom arefrom the University of Maryland
Med School, and, um.
They are happily marriedcouples.
I want to say we, wespecifically picked, uh, people
who've been married and notnecessarily a long time.
Some are early in their career,in their marriages, and some are
(31:09):
actually retired like Joel andme.
But, um, we wanna, this is gonnabe another kind of"Lessons
Learned." So what are thelessons that, uh, that these,
uh, couples have learned interms of what's made the
relationship work over, youknow, with the, with various
obstacles that we all have toface in a, in a relationship?
And so that's been a lot of funbecause I, I'm really getting
(31:30):
some great stories.
And we are the editors for thatbook as well as providing a
chapter of our own.
Dana Rampolla (31:36):
That's just a great idea for a book and you
guys certainly seem to be theperfect pair to be, to be
managing and leading it.
So you, because you both were,so you were in med school at the
same time, then you werephysicians at the same time,
then your business together nowwriting together, you guys must
really like each other a lot.
Deborah Shlian (31:56):
We have been teased a lot about being
together so much, but I wouldsay that, um, that's been a real
positive for us, for ourrelationship.
Even were in the Army MedicalCorps during Vietnam because my
husband had to join the MedicalCorps in order to have his
residency.
You know, so they wouldn't getdrafted during Vietnam.
And so I ended up joining aswell.
And so we did that together.
Dana Rampolla (32:17):
Really are the, the duo pair.
You talked a little bit beforeabout how you think it's
important for any medicalperson.
To have some sort of otheroutlet and that could be
creative or maybe it's somethingtotally different.
Maybe it's being a marathonrunner, but what is your advice
for aspiring physicians who arealso interested in writing?
(32:38):
Is it, you know, an anythingthey should be focusing on or
maybe an area to start in orthings to do just to kind of get
themselves in a writing zone?
Deborah Shlian (32:48):
No, I think the only thing you do is face the
empty page.
Uh, one thing I would advise ismaybe to keep a diary of some of
your patients, you know, yourstories.
Uh, obviously you're not gonnaput the names of the patients in
the book, but.
But, you know, but to basicallykind of write about your
experiences, I think that's veryhelpful.
But other than that, I wouldsay, you know, there's no, there
aren't any obstacles now tophysicians writing.
(33:10):
I mean, when I was, uh, my firstnovel, I remember I met Michael
Crichton, who was a physician,and he told me, don't tell them
you're a doctor because youknow, again, they want you to
stay in your lane.
You're a doctor or you're awriter.
And so interesting.
Um, so we didn't put MD on our,you know.
By Deborah Shlian, MD.
But, um, today, there reallyaren't those obstacles.
(33:30):
I hope that, that the medicalschool, university of Maryland
Med School would encourage, um,you know, writing.
There are some schools I thinkthat are, are actually have some
classes in, in writing, uh, bothfiction and nonfiction.
Charles Schelle (33:45):
We do have a, um, science writing and
communication, uh, course andprogram that we have in, the
School of Graduate Studiesactually.
So, uh, more of the, obviouslythe nonfiction part but it does
help train, uh, students tocommunicate science to the
public, to through the media aswell, so they can, explain very
(34:07):
complicated concepts simply for,for people to, to digest.
Um, so it's a great programthere.
If you could give one piece ofadvice to the current UMB class,
what would it be?
Deborah Shlian (34:21):
I would say find a mentor or even more than one
mentor because.
That person, if they're, if theyreally are a good mentor, will
help to, you know, can help toguide a career, give advice when
there are some obstacles thatyou're facing, um, to maybe
encourage, uh, people who, whodon't have enough confidence in
themselves to, you know, and theother thing is to expand your
(34:43):
professional networks because Ithink, uh, joining organization,
obviously the alumniorganization, but also the For
Women, the American MedicalWomen's Association is a
wonderful organization toreally, um.
Enhance young, both studentsand, uh, physicians who
graduated, you know, in termsof, uh, opportunities that are,
that are out there and help toidentify career goals.
(35:05):
Um, and of course the, theAmerican Association Physician
Leadership would not want me tomiss talking about them as well,
um, because they do have someleadership training programs.
But basically I would saymentors are the most important.
Dana Rampolla (35:22):
Deborah, I'm wondering if there's anything
else that maybe we've left outthat you would like to have a
chance to talk about.
We've tried to touch on yourwriting your business.
Deborah Shlian (35:34):
No, I mean, I, I think that, um, I've had a very
interesting career.
I would say that, uh, my mothertook me once to see, um, Robert
Frost and, and I remember hispoem about the,"The Road Not
Taken." I always thought aboutthat as, you know, paths that I
never would've considered if Ididn't take those opportunities
because I really always thoughtI would be a clinician like my
(35:57):
dad.
He didn't retire until way intohis seventies.
And, um, he loved practicingmedicine and as I did too, but
as other opportunities came up,I decided to take those, uh,
those, those paths or forks inthe road.
And for me, that's made all thedifference.
So I would say, you know, beopen to opportunities.
Dana Rampolla (36:16):
That's wonderful advice for all of us.
No matter what, what field we'rein, we never know where, where
we're gonna wind up next or whatthat next season of life looks
like.
And it sounds like you're stillenjoying this season of life
with your writing.
We look forward to keeping aneye out for some of your new
productions.
And you know the best, best ofluck to you as you continue
(36:37):
forward.
Deborah, thank you for joiningus today.
Deborah Shlian (36:39):
Thanks a lot.
It's been a pleasure.
Thank you.
Jena Frick (36:46):
The UMB Pulse with Charles Schelle and Dana
Rampolla is a UMB Office ofCommunications and Public
Affairs production.
Edited by Charles Schelle,marketing by Dana Rampolla.
Earlier this season on the UMB Pulse, we
heard from a University ofMaryland Baltimore alumna who
wrote her autobiographyretelling the story of her life
and her career in the PeaceCorps.
Well, on this edition of thepodcast, we have a writer of a
different ilk.
Dana Rampolla (00:16):
Yes.
Today we're talking to Dr.
Deborah Shlian.
She's a 1972 graduate of theUniversity of Maryland School of
Medicine where she earned herMD.
She also earned an MBA fromUCLA's Anderson School of
Management.
So she's been a medical doctor,and then we get to a part where
she's a-a writer.
And then there's a whole lot ofin between where she had her own
(00:38):
business.
She's partnered on most of theseventures with her husband.
So it will be a really greatopportunity to learn about how
you can change your path in lifewhile still letting some of
those things overlap.
Charles Schelle (00:50):
We will definitely dive in about
Deborah's writing in both thenonfiction and fiction worlds
where her specialty is themedical mystery thriller genre.
Deborah has garnered multipleliterary awards, including the
Florida Book Awards Gold Medal.
And like Dana said, Deborahcollaborates with her husband
(01:10):
Joel on some of those novels,which includes"Rabbit in the
Moon," and that book hasreceived numerous awards.
Dana Rampolla (01:17):
And beyond fiction.
Dr.
Shlian has contributed tononfiction literature, notably
editing"Lessons Learned," whichincludes stories from women
leaders in STEM.
It profiles 31 women who havemade significant strides in
science, technology,engineering, and mathematics.
Several of them are actuallyfrom University of Maryland,
Baltimore.
Charles Schelle (01:37):
A woman of many, many talents.
And how does she keep it all inorder from one project to the
next?
Well, we are going to find outon this edition of The UMB
Pulse.
Jena Frick (01:51):
You are listening to the heartbeat of the University
of Maryland, Baltimore, the UMBPulse.
Dana Rampolla (02:05):
Welcome Deborah.
Deborah Shlian (02:06):
Thank you so much for having me.
Dana Rampolla (02:08):
Well, we are excited to talk to you because
you've spent many years being adoctor, um, in the field, but
you've also spent a number ofyears now writing and
co-authoring, um, a handful ofbooks that as an avid reader,
I'm excited to talk to youabout, especially because you co
cover a couple of differentgenres.
So, let's kick it off and talk alittle bit about what inspired
(02:29):
you to choose the University ofMaryland, Baltimore, for your
medical education.
Deborah Shlian (02:34):
Well, first of all, I was born and raised in
Baltimore.
My dad is a physician.
He is a proud graduate of theUniversity of Maryland School of
Medicine Class 43 December,which was uh, the year that the
World War II the graduates were,um, of the med school, actually
graduated six months early inorder to join the Army.
So I was growing up, he was myrole model.
(02:56):
Uh, almost all of his colleagueswere University of Maryland
School of Medicine grads.
He was my, not only my rolemodel, but he took me to, uh,
um, house calls.
He took me on gr on rounds withpatients.
So I never thought about goingto any other med school, but the
University of Maryland MedSchool.
Charles Schelle (03:13):
We'll talk about your, your love for
writing your, your books andeverything in a bit, but
continuing down down the path ofthe medical education, you have
a, company or business, dealingwith the medical field.
Tell us a little bit about whatthat is and, some of the, the
challenges you, you facelaunching your business and how
(03:34):
it's going now.
Deborah Shlian (03:35):
I think I need to give you a little bit of
background.
After my residency, my husbandJoel and I, and by the way, Joel
was a graduate of this schoolalso a year.
He was a year ahead of me.
We went out to Los Angeles andwe became partners at Kaiser
Permanente, which was anintegrated group model, HMO,
and, um, one of the firstmanaged care organizations in
(03:56):
the United States in the 1970s.
And after, um, 10 years ofworking as a clinician at
Kaiser, I was recruited to runstudent health service.
I became the medical directorfor, uh, UCLA Student Health
Service, which was the primarycare facility for all 33,000
students on campus.
And in that role, my bossdecided that I needed to get an
(04:16):
MBA.
Um, he felt I needed to get moreinvolved in administration.
And so I, uh, actually finishedthat degree in 1988 with my
husband.
And as a result of that degree,I became part of the senior
management team, which allowedme to attend policy meetings
that here too far, I hadn't beeninvited to because there were
only non positions that came tothose meetings.
(04:37):
But at the same time, I wasgetting calls from recruiters
about other opportunities in,um, medical management in
California.
Um, what they said was, youknow, after almost 20 years of
being a clinician and along withthis MBA, um, and I'm working in
managed two managed caresettings that I was a strong
candidate for a number ofopportunities in, in, uh, both
(04:58):
Southern and NorthernCalifornia.
So even though I was happy atUCLA, I was curious, I wanted to
explore a couple of theseoptions.
So I had never worked withrecruiters before, so I had no
idea what to expect.
Someone would call my office andthey would tell me about an
opportunity.
Um, they actually asked me if Iwanted to be considered as a
candidate.
And by the way, if I didn'tknow, if I wasn't interested,
did I know somebody else whomight be interested?
(05:20):
What was surprising what theserecruiters often had very little
information about theorganization.
They asked few relevantquestions, um, they really
weren't interested in, in mybackground that much.
I mean, other than, you know,was I right for that particular
job?
They really asked me nothingabout my interests or my career
goals, so that when I didinterview, I often found the
opportunity was totallydifferent from the recruiter's
(05:42):
description.
And as a result of thesedisappointing searches, I
realized that there was anunfulfilled niche of full
service, what I call a fullservice, comprehensive search
consulting in the managed caremarket.
'cause there were a lot ofpeople out there that called
themselves recruiters, but noother firm in that specific
market had somebody with mycredentials.
So I, I thought I could bring aunique perspective to searches
(06:04):
and the other, what I call valueadded was my willingness to
develop long-term relationshipswith physicians, to actually
guide them through the wholeprocess.
Um, even putting'em on themanaged care career path and
mentoring them along the way.
And, um, as I said, I had, I hadreally had no experience with
anyone in the search industrywho was gonna invest any time in
my career.
(06:26):
And I didn't think that anybodywould, had my hands on
experience of, uh, ourunderstanding of what the, um,
what the talent pool was outthere.
While I was at UCLA, I started aorganization called, that was
part of the LA uh, businessschool and the School of Public
Health.
And what we did is we met once aweek, once a month rather, we
(06:46):
had, uh, speakers and we had,um, talks about leadership.
So I knew that there was a bigpool of potential candidates.
I guess to answer your questionbut despite the sense that I, I
thought I could do it better, ittook months of soul searching
before I actually took that leapto make the transition from
physician manager to medicalmanagement search consultant,
because my professors at UCLAtold me that most businesses
(07:08):
fail more than succeed, uh,especially consulting firms.
They said that maybe one in fiveactually makes it.
And so if I really wanted to bean entrepreneur, I had to be
willing to take that risk.
That really wasn't something Iwas thinking about before, but
my husband really encouraged me.
And so starting in 1993, I beganto very slowly build a firm that
initially concentrated only onphysician executive searches.
(07:32):
I worked with doctors one-on-oneand I actually, uh, spent a lot
of time evaluating the careergoals, their life priorities,
their networking.
I, uh, net reworking theirresumes.
I developed a better interviewtechniques for some of them, and
when I did make a placement, Iactually helped to come to,
negotiate their contract Thatwas very successful.
(07:53):
And, uh, by word of mouth, Istarted to expand my client base
and they actually startedworking outside of managed care
to work with academicinstitutions and, uh, research
organizations, um, even someother consulting firms.
And in 1994, um, my husband Joeljoined me as president of the
company.
And then in 1998, weincorporated as Shlian and
(08:14):
Associates, we moved our main,uh, base of operations to
Florida because both sets ofparents had very significant
healthcare issues and we reallyfelt that we needed to be there
to help with, with, uh, withtheir care.
I mean, we were flying back andforth between California and,
uh, Florida at the time.
Now a lot of small businessowners feel they have to expand
(08:34):
in order to demonstrate theirsuccess.
However, and I always rememberthis, that there was a, uh, Dun
and Bradstreet, uh, study thatsaid it's longevity rather than
growth is, that's the realmeasure of achievement.
Companies that last three yearsor more are more likely to make
it.
And here's a quote and I'm gonnahave to read it'cause I can't
remember it.
But"If you begin a company tocapitalize on the wisdom and
(08:57):
personal service of a keyindividual, namely you, big is
bad.
So adding staff and projects canspread the core value of your
firm so thinly that customersare dissatisfied.
In the knowledge based servicefirm, there's no economies of
scale." So basically one of thebiggest decisions that we had to
make early on was how to, um,position ourselves.
(09:18):
And Joel was pretty, um, I wouldsay ion in saying that, that if
we maintained ourselves as apetite business, that we would
have an advantage.
We actually, uh, had anopportunity to join a large
national recruiting company atone point, but instead what we
did was we developed, um,affiliations with over a dozen
associates that had officesacross the country.
(09:40):
All of them had very significanthealthcare backgrounds, so we
would call on them for specificsearches.
And I guess the bottom line isthat, being your own boss is
definitely not for the faint ofheart.
You know, the fact that we weresuccessful has really been very
sweet.
And I would say that for me, um,the shift from a management
position and a, and what was ahighly bureaucratic and
(10:01):
hierarchical organization tobecoming the CEO of my own, uh,
company, has been probably themost exciting and positive
experience in my professionallife.
Now, when Covid began andstaffing, you know, started to
decrease, uh, companies, uh,weren't sure what was gonna
happen in the future.
We actually decided to what Icall retire.
We still continue to advise someof our associates, but we're now
(10:24):
concentrating on otherinterests.
I went back to writing bothfiction and nonfiction and
actually, uh, Joel is helping mewith a nonfiction project that
we're working on right now.
And then for Joel, it's beenphotography.
So I guess that's a long, a longway to answer your question The
whole idea of starting my owncompany was definitely not
something that I ever thought Iwould do.
Dana Rampolla (10:45):
Were there ever times where you looked back and
you thought, geez, how did Iwind up here?
What type of medicine did youpractice and were there periods
or times when you missed that?
Deborah Shlian (10:55):
Well, we always, uh, we practice family medicine.
We have boards in familymedicine, and I, I actually,
when we moved to Florida, we didget our licenses, so we were
doing some volunteer work.
I, I've always felt that I'm adoctor, you know, that is my,
part of my main identity.
And so whether I'm doingconsulting or whether I'm doing,
uh, actually taking care ofpatients one-on-one, I feel
(11:17):
that's who I am.
And I have to say that, to givea plug to the University of
Maryland School of Medicine, Ithink that they, when we went to
school, their clinical programwas fabulous.
And I, um, to this day I'm toldthat, I teach, uh, sometimes
I've taught, um, uh, hands-onclinical diagnosis and that, you
know, people have alwaysimpressed.
(11:38):
I have to thank the school forthat.
Dana Rampolla (11:40):
You've started to mention the writing.
I know that you write sometimeswith your husband, as you
pointed out.
How has your experience as aphysician influenced your
writing, particularly incrafting your medical thrillers?
Deborah Shlian (11:53):
I've always loved to write, I mean, when I
was a kid, I, I had my ownlittle newspaper called The
Chatterbox.
Oh, fun High School.
I, I worked for the newspaperand, uh, in camp I did plays
and, um.
Um, at the end of the senioryear of high school, I wrote,
um, I, I skit that was called"Those Were the Years that
Were," which was based on DavidFrost"That was the Week That
(12:15):
Was." I don't, I'm sure I'm tooold for a lot of people to
remember that.
But anyway, that was a big hit.
So I always like to write, butmy father said to me.
Writing may not be a career thatis necessarily gonna pay the
bills.
And since you say you wanna be adoctor, that if you're a
physician, you can always write.
So the truth is the matter thatwhen I was, uh, especially when
(12:35):
I was really full-timepracticing, I did a lot of
clinical research projects.
I wrote, uh, non-fictionarticles and, uh, articles and
books and nonfiction.
But, um.
And I say this sometimes when Igive a book talk is, you know,
you can't, and this is reallytrue, you can't live in Los
Angeles very long withoutgetting hit by the Hollywood bug
because everybody means issomething else on the side.
(12:58):
You know, your dentist is aproducer, your lawyer is a, is
an agent, and every waiter andwaitress is an actor.
It wasn't really until I readRobin Cook's book"Coma," you
know, he's an ophthalmologistand I thought.
That was one of the best, uh, Ithink, medical thrillers that
has ever been written.
Um, I thought, gee, if he can dothat, maybe I can do that too.
(13:20):
So, you know, it's notsurprising that because I'm a
physician that, um, you know,they say, write what you know.
So obviously, um, I, I have tosay that, having, uh, the
experience of, of theopportunity to get to know so
many different individuals overthe years to learn about their
lives from a kind of intimateperspective as a doctor, I.
Um, that's I think, quite uniqueand that's given me a breadth
(13:43):
of, of experiences and, and, um,uh, for which to draw my
characters and situations.
Now, Joel and I, as you said,uh, collaborated on two
successfully published medicalmysteries while we were still
living in Los Angeles.
One was with Simon and Schusterand one was Berkeley Books.
But, um, we had an agent at thetime and she insist she wanted
(14:04):
us to quit medicine and, andthat was not my intent of, you
know, I, I loved writing, but I,I certainly didn't want to give
up medicine.
So it wasn't really until wemoved to Florida that we
actually, I.
Finished a book that we had beenworking on for a number of
years, which was, uh, calledRabbit in the Moon.
It's actually a medical mysterythriller, but it's
(14:25):
international.
It's based in China.
And, uh, that book became, um,uh, a bestseller and it was
published by Ocean ViewPublishing, which was a small
paperback, a publishing firmthat, uh, focuses on mysteries
and thrillers.
It's won a number of literaryawards, including the gold medal
for the, uh, Florida Book Award.
We got to meet the governor,which is really fun.
(14:46):
The audio book version even wonan honorable mention, uh, at the
Hollywood Book, uh, Festival.
So encouraged by thosesuccesses.
I've written, uh, five newmedical mystery thrillers.
Uh, four are in a series thatI've co-written with, um, a
colleague from UCLA, Linda Reed,and, uh, one of them I wrote
myself called"Silent Survivor."I wrote that a couple of years
(15:07):
ago.
I would say one thing that themost important lesson that, that
I've learned from, uh, fromthese endeavors is that
physicians should developoutside interests, um, outside
of medicine.
Even if you combine them withmedicine so that you know when
you transition to retirement,you don't completely lose your
identity because I, I have a lotof colleagues who, uh, you know,
(15:28):
have got, have actually sunkinto depression the moment that
they're no longer calleddoctors.
Charles Schelle (15:32):
Yeah, absolutely.
I think, as Dana could probablytell you, we have a tremendous
amount of physicians andscientists and people from all
sorts of corners of UMB who haveother talents, whether their
artwork is published in 1807, orthey play the piano, organ, or,
uh, you know, or PresidentJarrell and, and his, uh,
(15:55):
blacksmithing and, and iron workthat, that he does, where, um,
he's been selected into, uh,juried art shows.
But it all takes a bunch ofdifferent types of creative
energy and some can be, um, moreeffortless than others.
And so you're both in fictionand nonfiction and sounds like
the, the, the fiction is, isweighing heavily in your kind of
(16:19):
priorities right now, but do youfeel like one is, you can get
into the mood or, or the,mindset to, to start writing
and, and the words come moreeasily than, than the other?
Deborah Shlian (16:32):
You mean fiction versus nonfiction?
Yeah,
Charles Schelle (16:34):
Fiction versus nonfiction.
Deborah Shlian (16:35):
It depends on the project that I'm working on.
I right now, I, I actually hadhad, uh, straddled two projects,
one nonfiction, one fiction.
The fiction, uh, is the last, inthis last book so far on the
series, um, about a radio talkshow host who solves, uh, a
murder mystery.
I think in general, I would saythat for me, fiction is more
(16:57):
challenging because, you know, Ireally believe that I always do
a lot of, a lot of research whenI'm writing fiction.
With nonfiction, you kind ofhave your, your, uh.
You know, you're working foralready, but for fiction, um,
for example, the book that wedid about China, we spent almost
five years researching Chinesehistory because the book takes
(17:18):
place in 1989 during the veryshort student democracy movement
that ended at Tiananmen Square.
And, uh, we wanted to make surethat every detail as far as, uh,
the situations that even thepeople that were there were
accurate in a book I did called"Silent Survivor," which is
about, uh, um, part of this plotis about military sexual
(17:39):
assault.
I actually interviewed a numberof women who had experienced,
uh, that and because I wanted tomake sure again, that that was
realistic.
But the last book that we did,which is called"Dirty Deeds,"
which takes place in New York.
I hadn't spent much time in NewYork, so I had to do a lot of
research about the place,because it takes place in
Queens.
And of course, and it also takesplace in 2008.
(18:00):
Uh, we have one issue withhacking.
So I had to know what wasavailable technologically at the
time, you know, that kind ofthing.
Um, so I guess, you know, toanswer your question, I would
say I'm more challenged byfiction.
I spend a lot more time before Iwrite a, a novel thinking about
the the characters and the plotbefore I actually sit down and
(18:22):
write it.
With nonfiction, we pretty muchcan start right away.
Charles Schelle (18:27):
Which makes so much sense because you're,
you're creating a story, but ithas to be based in reality.
And you, you wanna make surethat reality is as true to life
as possible to make the made upstory believable.
Right.
I understand you have two ofyour novels been optioned for
screenplays, and, and I knowfrom talking with, um, authors
and, and producers before,sometimes that translation from
(18:50):
book to, to the film to thescreen, all that research may be
adjusted for, for that, thatmedium.
And maybe you get away fromreality a little bit more.
Can you share, uh, any updates,on the progress of, of those
screenplays and, how you'reinvolved in the adaptation?
Deborah Shlian (19:10):
Well, actually the, the two books that were
optioned were optioned, were ourfirst two novels, and, um, we
actually got as far as gettingarticles in, in, Variety and,
and, uh, Hollywood Reporter.
So we thought, for sure thesewere gonna get made.
But typically lots of books getoptioned.
They don't necessarily get made.
We even optioned, uh,"Wednesday's Child," which was
our second novel twice, and it,and it didn't get made.
(19:31):
But at that time, there werevery few opportunities to even
get involved in the writing.
They said if you're a novelist,you stay in your lane.
You're not, you're not gonnawrite the screenplay.
I think some of that isdifferent now because I do see
some authors who are allowed toat least get involved in
screenwriting.
Because I've been so busy withmy recruiting business and now
with, um, some of thesenon-fiction projects that I've
(19:52):
been working on, I haven't goneback to actually see if there's
an opportunity.
I think my series would make agreat series for.
Some of the, streaming,opportunities out there, like
Netflix and so on.
So Linda and I are looking atsome of that, but right now,
nothing is being done.
It's basically, I have, I havethe rights to all of my books,
so if anybody out there is, uh,producer or director, feel free
(20:15):
to gimme a call.
Dana Rampolla (20:18):
Well, maybe our podcast will help get the word
out for you.
That would be terrific.
Let's go, uh, flip to the otherside and talk a little bit about
your, um, your"Lessons Learned"series and how it spotlighted
women in STEM fields such asphysicians and, um.
Some, actually some people fromhere at UMB faculty, students
(20:39):
and recent retirees.
Um, that series heard from DonnaL.
Parker, professor of medicineand senior associate dean for
undergraduate medical education.
And then Kathleen Neuzil.
Dr.
Neuzil has been a professor anda researcher here at UMB for
many years.
So can you give us a little bitof information about the current
climate of scientists andphysicians, um, in not only
(21:03):
maybe some of those people thatyou've written about, if you've
kept in touch with them or ifthere's any other, um, maybe
books that you are thinkingabout writing that covers some
of those same areas or any ofthe other true to life areas
that you referred to.
Deborah Shlian (21:19):
Oh, the, the, um, idea of writing those two
books were contracted actuallyby the American Association for
Physician Leadership.
They were the publisher and theycame to me to, um, ask me about
actually updating a monographthat I had written in the
nineties about where women werein terms of leadership, because
as a member of thatorganization, I was not that
(21:39):
happy to see.
So few women in leadershiproles, and I felt that, you
know, we needed to find out whatwere the reasons.
Um, so with the, the, actuallythe lessons learned stories from
women physician leaders was thethird update of the nineties
book because in 2012 I did asecond version, and then right
before Covid, they asked me todo the book, this book yet
(22:02):
again.
That in that book I identifiedabout 33 women, including, and I
was trying very hard to findwomen from University of
Maryland med school and waslucky to find, uh, as you said,
Donna, um, and uh, I'm trying tothink who was the other person
now.
Dana Rampolla (22:18):
Dr.
Neuzil, she was the director forthe Center of Vaccine
Development and Global Health.
Deborah Shlian (22:23):
I have kept up with all of them as a matter of
fact, but what I did is insteadof my interviewing them, what I,
I thought that it would be muchmore compelling to, because I
like to write fiction and I knowthat people like stories.
I had them write their ownstories to really tell how their
career paths, what were theobstacles and the challenges
that they faced.
(22:43):
We did several iterations.
I was the editor and I actuallyhad my chapter in there as well.
But, um, what was veryinteresting was, was, uh, so
many of the obstacles andchallenges were, were so similar
to all of them, and yet thesewomen were so successful and it
finally made it to more seniorroles, um, with the book on.
(23:04):
So that, that book was verysuccessful.
And the next year they asked meto write a book about women
leaders in stem.
Again, I look to the Universityof Maryland.
Um, Ronna Hertzano is in thatbook.
Uh, she's now within, I, she, Ihope she's still with NIH, but
she was, she had moved to NIH.
She's an ear, nose and throat,and also a PhD.
So these are all women who arePhDs.
(23:25):
Some have MDs as well as PhDs.
Claire, Fraser, who was theoutgoing head of the Institute
for Genomic Sciences is in thatbook.
Um, Rita Calwell, who is a, uma, she's 87 I think now.
She was one of the first headsof the National First Women Head
of the National ScienceFoundation.
(23:45):
Again, I had these women writetheir own stories.
I edited those.
And, um, they're amazingstories.
If anybody's read the fiction"Lessons in Chemistry," uh, I
don't know if it's a, the, thatbecame a, uh, a series on
television.
Um, but it's a, it's a fictionalversion of what.
(24:06):
A woman named Emily is, uh, whatis her name?
Um, her last name is Za.
Um, she, what she has to gothrough to become a PhD and to
become a, a scientist.
Well, these women are just likeher, only their real life
scientists who had to go throughall kinds of hoops to make it
as, as senior leaders in, in,uh, in STEM.
(24:27):
So, so those two books, I'mhoping those will act as role
models and mentors for youngwomen who are interested in, in
medicine and stem.
Um, there are a lot of, I knowthere are a lot of medical
students now who are thinkingabout dual credential, you know,
having MDs and PhDs so that theycan find lots of women in both
(24:49):
books who look like them and whoare, you know, have been very
successful and hopefully, um,that will not only.
Encourage them to becomescientists, but also to become
leaders in science.
Charles Schelle (25:03):
With the current environment where,
leaders of all types are, areput in, uh, extraordinary
circumstances with pulling offunding.
I was wondering if you couldforesee maybe a, a sequel or a
follow up to some of theseleaders about the, the new
challenges they're facing thatare unprecedented.
Um, because Kathy Neuzilactually has been in the, the
news this week, uh, according toScience Magazine, she's been
(25:26):
working with the Fogarty,Center, with NIH, but she's been
put in this position where it'seither accept a position at
Indian Health Services orresign, and she told, um, the
news outlet that she'll make herdecision, over, over the
weekend.
So, People who've fought to getin these great positions are,
are now, almost powerless.
And I was wondering maybe whatyour perspective on that is or,
(25:48):
or just of what you would wantto kind of maybe follow up on
some of these leaders to, tohear what they're going through
that they could maybe share someof that wisdom to, um, future,
um, STEM leaders.
Deborah Shlian (26:01):
I'm certainly, I, I actually have on my list
call Kathy next week.
I just didn't wanna bother'causeI had read about that.
I'm, I'm very upset about what'shappening in, in, in terms of,
of, um, science and the factthat so many of my colleagues
have either lost grants.
Or you know, or concerned thatthey may lose grants.
And I've talked to a number ofyoung people who are, you know,
(26:22):
considering whether they evenwant to go to medical school or
become PhDs.
So I don't know that this wouldbe a necessarily follow up book,
but I think we need to talkabout it more.
And I'm actually going to beattending a meeting with the
American Association forAdvancement of Science.
They're doing a, a Zoom to justto discuss this issue because I
don't, I don't, I'm not surewhat we can do right now, except
(26:43):
to speak up.
Dana Rampolla (26:44):
Deborah, I wanted to talk a little bit about the,
maybe the disparity between menand women who make up, um,
either medical school classes ortake leadership roles, are able
to take leadership roles inhealthcare.
It seems to be still a very maledominated profession.
What do you see as the biggestbarriers for women advancing in
these positions?
Deborah Shlian (27:05):
So when I went to medical school, there were
less than 10% of the class werewomen Today, I think the
University of Maryland School ofMedicine classes as much as 60%.
But in terms of leadership,we're not even maybe 16% across
the healthcare spectrum.
And I see that as, as a bigproblem because we have so many
talented women now who are, asmy books have shown, are, are,
(27:28):
uh, have all the expertise thatyou need to be in these roles.
So what are some of theobstacles?
Well, some of them are personal.
There still is this impostersyndrome that unfortunately more
women than men seem to, uh,possess.
And these are maybe highly, um,achieving women who just feel
that they're not.
Qualified enough for aparticular role in, in a
(27:50):
leadership role.
When I was doing recruiting, Ifound that, um, if I had a, a
job that I felt was perfect fora particular woman candidate, I
vetted her.
I check to see that she was aperfect, uh, fit for this
particular organization.
I send her her, um, a jobdescription, and then I'd
literally count the secondsuntil she would tell me what,
(28:11):
what specific skill, or forwhatever reason, she maybe
wasn't quite right for the job.
But if I sent that same jobdescription to a male candidate.
Not a second pass before theywere, and they were not
necessarily as qualified.
They had the confidence to saythat they could do the job.
So that's something that we haveto overcome personally in terms
of, uh, what I would sayinstitutionally, there still is
(28:33):
gender bias.
There still is, um, the sense ofwhat, you know, what makes a
good leader.
You know, what, what, whatgender makes a good leader,
which, which is not, you know,has not been born out in terms
of, of studies.
Um, there is still the issueabout work-life balance.
Um, unfortunately even theyounger women that I've talked
to tell me that, you know, whenthey, uh, have, uh, to make a
(28:56):
decision about having a family,how do they balance that, that,
that they're taking on more ofthe caregiving roles than, than
the, than the guys are.
I mean, some are, are, you know,are helping more for sure, but
it's, it's still not 50-50.
So that becomes, uh, a problem.
And then the other thing is thatthere haven't been enough
mentors and role models, andthat's again, what my hope my
(29:19):
books are providing is, is atleast some, you know, uh, some
way for people to see that therereally are people out there
that, that you can, um, you canidentify with as, as, um, as a
mentor or as a role model.
Charles Schelle (29:34):
I remember you had one UMB student who's
actually still, I believe stillhere, um, completing her
program, Aishwarya Iyer, she wasa student of the, the year in,
in 2022.
She served as a, mentor forthe,, UMB Cure Scholars, which
helps, students in WestBaltimore pursue those fields.
So we have our very own UMBstudents trying to help that
(29:56):
next generation, um, find apath.
So it's great to hear, and I'mglad you highlighted her too.
Deborah Shlian (30:01):
Yeah, well, I, she and I talked a lot about
that because I was very, veryhappy to see that now that
University of Maryland medschool has provided that
opportunity, um, because I, Ithink that's so critical.
Charles Schelle (30:14):
We've covered a lot and you mentioned that you
have some projects on your plateright now that you're focusing
on.
So what's next for you?
What's grabbing your attentionright now?
Deborah Shlian (30:25):
I have a contract that with my husband to
write a book about dualphysician marriages.
The American, uh, Association ofPhysician Leadership said that
there is only one book that theycould find out there that was
about medical marriages, and itwas basically written in the
nineties, and it was written bya therapist about male
physicians married to, you know,to women who were not doctors,
(30:46):
and most of them were in therapyand not very happy.
So what we have done is we'vefound, we've identified over 30
couples, several of whom arefrom the University of Maryland
Med School, and, um.
They are happily marriedcouples.
I want to say we, wespecifically picked, uh, people
who've been married and notnecessarily a long time.
Some are early in their career,in their marriages, and some are
(31:09):
actually retired like Joel andme.
But, um, we wanna, this is gonnabe another kind of"Lessons
Learned." So what are thelessons that, uh, that these,
uh, couples have learned interms of what's made the
relationship work over, youknow, with the, with various
obstacles that we all have toface in a, in a relationship?
And so that's been a lot of funbecause I, I'm really getting
(31:30):
some great stories.
And we are the editors for thatbook as well as providing a
chapter of our own.
Dana Rampolla (31:36):
That's just a great idea for a book and you
guys certainly seem to be theperfect pair to be, to be
managing and leading it.
So you, because you both were,so you were in med school at the
same time, then you werephysicians at the same time,
then your business together nowwriting together, you guys must
really like each other a lot.
Deborah Shlian (31:56):
We have been teased a lot about being
together so much, but I wouldsay that, um, that's been a real
positive for us, for ourrelationship.
Even were in the Army MedicalCorps during Vietnam because my
husband had to join the MedicalCorps in order to have his
residency.
You know, so they wouldn't getdrafted during Vietnam.
And so I ended up joining aswell.
And so we did that together.
Dana Rampolla (32:17):
Really are the, the duo pair.
You talked a little bit beforeabout how you think it's
important for any medicalperson.
To have some sort of otheroutlet and that could be
creative or maybe it's somethingtotally different.
Maybe it's being a marathonrunner, but what is your advice
for aspiring physicians who arealso interested in writing?
(32:38):
Is it, you know, an anythingthey should be focusing on or
maybe an area to start in orthings to do just to kind of get
themselves in a writing zone?
Deborah Shlian (32:48):
No, I think the only thing you do is face the
empty page.
Uh, one thing I would advise ismaybe to keep a diary of some of
your patients, you know, yourstories.
Uh, obviously you're not gonnaput the names of the patients in
the book, but.
But, you know, but to basicallykind of write about your
experiences, I think that's veryhelpful.
But other than that, I wouldsay, you know, there's no, there
aren't any obstacles now tophysicians writing.
(33:10):
I mean, when I was, uh, my firstnovel, I remember I met Michael
Crichton, who was a physician,and he told me, don't tell them
you're a doctor because youknow, again, they want you to
stay in your lane.
You're a doctor or you're awriter.
And so interesting.
Um, so we didn't put MD on our,you know.
By Deborah Shlian, MD.
But, um, today, there reallyaren't those obstacles.
(33:30):
I hope that, that the medicalschool, university of Maryland
Med School would encourage, um,you know, writing.
There are some schools I thinkthat are, are actually have some
classes in, in writing, uh, bothfiction and nonfiction.
Charles Schelle (33:45):
We do have a, um, science writing and
communication, uh, course andprogram that we have in, the
School of Graduate Studiesactually.
So, uh, more of the, obviouslythe nonfiction part but it does
help train, uh, students tocommunicate science to the
public, to through the media aswell, so they can, explain very
(34:07):
complicated concepts simply for,for people to, to digest.
Um, so it's a great programthere.
If you could give one piece ofadvice to the current UMB class,
what would it be?
Deborah Shlian (34:21):
I would say find a mentor or even more than one
mentor because.
That person, if they're, if theyreally are a good mentor, will
help to, you know, can help toguide a career, give advice when
there are some obstacles thatyou're facing, um, to maybe
encourage, uh, people who, whodon't have enough confidence in
themselves to, you know, and theother thing is to expand your
(34:43):
professional networks because Ithink, uh, joining organization,
obviously the alumniorganization, but also the For
Women, the American MedicalWomen's Association is a
wonderful organization toreally, um.
Enhance young, both studentsand, uh, physicians who
graduated, you know, in termsof, uh, opportunities that are,
that are out there and help toidentify career goals.
(35:05):
Um, and of course the, theAmerican Association Physician
Leadership would not want me tomiss talking about them as well,
um, because they do have someleadership training programs.
But basically I would saymentors are the most important.
Dana Rampolla (35:22):
Deborah, I'm wondering if there's anything
else that maybe we've left outthat you would like to have a
chance to talk about.
We've tried to touch on yourwriting your business.
Deborah Shlian (35:34):
No, I mean, I, I think that, um, I've had a very
interesting career.
I would say that, uh, my mothertook me once to see, um, Robert
Frost and, and I remember hispoem about the,"The Road Not
Taken." I always thought aboutthat as, you know, paths that I
never would've considered if Ididn't take those opportunities
because I really always thoughtI would be a clinician like my
(35:57):
dad.
He didn't retire until way intohis seventies.
And, um, he loved practicingmedicine and as I did too, but
as other opportunities came up,I decided to take those, uh,
those, those paths or forks inthe road.
And for me, that's made all thedifference.
So I would say, you know, beopen to opportunities.
Dana Rampolla (36:16):
That's wonderful advice for all of us.
No matter what, what field we'rein, we never know where, where
we're gonna wind up next or whatthat next season of life looks
like.
And it sounds like you're stillenjoying this season of life
with your writing.
We look forward to keeping aneye out for some of your new
productions.
And you know the best, best ofluck to you as you continue
(36:37):
forward.
Deborah, thank you for joiningus today.
Deborah Shlian (36:39):
Thanks a lot.
It's been a pleasure.
Thank you.
Jena Frick (36:46):
The UMB Pulse with Charles Schelle and Dana
Rampolla is a UMB Office ofCommunications and Public
Affairs production.
Edited by Charles Schelle,marketing by Dana Rampolla.
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