Olympic Rugby Star & Maryland Carey Law Graduate: Carmen Farmer's Mission to Conserve Colorado Lands
September 1, 2023 • 33 mins
Discover the journey of Carmen Farmer, a standout University of Maryland Francis King Carey School of Law alumna and Team USA Rugby Olympian, who now champions land and water conservation in Colorado. In this episode of "The Pulse," recorded during the Podcast Movement Conference in Denver, Colorado, our co-hosts dive deep into Carmen's transition from the rugby fields of the Rio Olympics to the vast landscapes of Colorado. As a senior conservation project manager at Colorado Open Lands, Carmen plays a pivotal role in safeguarding the state's unique ecosystems, ensuring a harmonious balance between rapid population growth, nature, and wildlife. Learn about her dedication to preserving Colorado's pristine wilderness for future generations and her remarkable academic journey from Virginia Tech to Maryland Carey Law. Don't miss this inspiring conversation of passion, sports, and environmental stewardship.
Visit this episode on YouTube to watch our interview with Carmen Farmer from the Gaylord Rockies.
Listen to The UMB Pulse on Apple, Spotify, Amazon Music, and wherever you like to listen. The UMB Pulse is also now on YouTube.
Visit our website at umaryland.edu/pulse or email us at umbpulse@umaryland.edu.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Charles Schelle (00:00):
Dana, just breathe in that mountain air.
Dana Rampolla (00:02):
Oh my gosh, it is beautiful out here, Charles.
We've got some haze in thebackground, so you can't really
see the mountains too welltoday.
Charles Schelle (00:08):
Yeah, if you look out in the distance, you
can see some peaks out there,but with that wind rolling off
the mountains.
It's a new school year breeze,as I like to say.
It's a new season of The Pulse,right?
Dana Rampolla (00:19):
It is, and we're kicking it off with one of our
own alumni from the Universityof Maryland Baltimore, Carey
School of Law, and her name isCarmen Farmer.
Carmen works out here, but sheactually spent a fair amount of
time in, um, in Baltimorestudying and doing some
interesting things on theEastern Shore.
We'll be hearing about thattoday.
Charles Schelle (00:37):
Yeah.
And you're probably wondering,where are we?
We are in Denver, Colorado rightnow at the Podcast Movement
Conference.
And we're here to learn how toimprove the podcast for our
loyal listeners, our Pulse Palsas we like to call them.
So, uh, we figured why not do apodcast out here and talk to an
alum?
We have UMB alumni everywhere.
Dana Rampolla (00:57):
Yeah.
And it was kind of hard tonarrow it down.
We, we have some dentists outhere who we considered, but
Carmen is our go to person forthe day.
She's a senior conservationproject manager for the Northern
Front Range and Lower SouthPlatte Basin for Colorado Open
Lands, and that's a nonprofit.
They're dedicated to protectingland and water in Colorado.
Colorado, and she's going togive us a lot more specifics
(01:17):
about what that means.
Charles Schelle (01:18):
That's exciting.
And on top of all of that, she'san Olympian.
And as I say, once an Olympian,always an Olympian and
representing Team USA rugby inthe Rio Olympics.
So that's going to be fun totalk about too.
Dana Rampolla (01:30):
Yep.
Well, let's bring her on.
Charles Schelle (01:32):
Yes.
Let's get the, uh, show on theroad for the UMB Pulse.
You're listening to theheartbeat of the University of
Maryland, Baltimore, the UMBPulse.
(01:53):
Carmen, uh, thank you for joining us here in
Colorado.
Dana Rampolla (01:56):
Yeah.
You said you hit a little bit oftraffic, so it was a little, a
little bit of a drive.
But not too bad.
Carmen Farmer (02:01):
No, not too bad at all.
Um, thanks for having me.
Um, welcome to Colorado.
You guys have a wonderful viewhere, obviously.
And, uh, hopefully you'regetting to experience a little
bit of it.
Dana Rampolla (02:10):
Yeah.
You must enjoy living out here.
How long have you been inColorado?
I've been here seven years,seven years.
And you came out here for work,right?
Carmen Farmer (02:18):
I did.
Yeah.
Um, initially to, to work withColorado Open Lands, um, I'd
been coming out here though, totrain for rugby.
Dana Rampolla (02:24):
And we probably talk about that a little bit
more in a bit, but, um, yeah, Ilove it.
It's home now.
I love the mountains.
It's every weekend I'm out andabout camping, hiking, climbing,
skiing in the winter.
So yeah.
Charles, she's a hard lady tocatch up with back from Africa,
right?
Carmen Farmer (02:39):
Yeah, I did.
I did a two week trip to SouthAfrica to go, uh, volunteer at a
rhino sanctuary.
And uh, so yeah, I stayed prettybusy.
Dana Rampolla (02:46):
That's amazing.
Tell us a little bit about yourtrajectory educationally.
So we'll dive into work in acouple of minutes.
But...
How, what did you start outstudying?
How did you wind up at UMB andhow did that ultimately get you
out here?
Carmen Farmer (02:59):
Yeah, uh, I grew up in Richmond, Virginia.
I went to undergrad at VirginiaTech where I studied urban
planning, um, and then ended upgoing to law school at
University of Maryland inBaltimore.
Uh, and, uh, I had sort of anenvironmental, uh, lean there
and, and studied land useplanning and, and things of that
nature.
Um, subsequently to that, I, uh,clerked in federal district
(03:21):
court in Greenbelt, um, and, uh,and then took a job with, uh,
um, a land use law firm on theEastern Shore of Maryland and
lived in Maryland for quite awhile.
So pretty special place for me.
Charles Schelle (03:32):
Let's learn about the nonprofit you work
for.
Uh, what is Colorado Open Landsand why is it important to the
state?
Carmen Farmer (03:40):
Yeah.
Colorado Open Lands is astatewide land trust.
Um, as you mentioned, we're anonprofit and our mission is
essentially to protect openspaces, uh, farmland, uh, ranch
land.
Uh, in Colorado we've protectednearly 700,000 acres.
Um, and the reason we do that isbecause we're growing.
I mean, you're, you've got thisperfect backdrop because we have
sprawling subdivision houses outhere on the prairie.
(04:02):
We're about 15 miles, uh, eastof Denver, um, in a growing
metro area.
And, uh, like me, there's manyof us that have moved out here
because we enjoy the access tothe mountains.
Um, unfortunately, you know,we're We're growing at an
exponential pace and eating upsome of our best farm ground.
So we're our best habitat forthe other species that coexist
(04:23):
with us out here.
And, um, our wonderful views,um, and, uh, you know, our
public recreationalopportunities.
We have a lot of public land outhere.
But at the pace that we'regrowing, we're loving it to
death.
If you go to Rocky MountainNational Park, they get four
million visitors a year.
You've got to get a timed entrypass to get into there now.
Um, and so we're just crawlingall over those open lands we
(04:44):
have out here.
And so part of our mission is totry to find those last best
places that we can protect.
Um, that both provide places forus to grow food, places for us
to recreate, and then places forrest for the wildlife and other
species that, as I mentioned,are out here with us.
Charles Schelle (05:00):
It is surprising to see the sprawl
here.
It's a nicely dense city andthen, as right behind us, you
might be able to see newlyconstructed or under
construction homes and townhomesand then some of those homes are
approaching.
Uh, you know, parkland on theborder, like the Rocky Mountain
National Arsenal.
Like, you drive out and then,bam, there's a new development
(05:23):
right there.
So, but let's, let's talk aboutwhat the land actually covers it
and your region.
You're the senior projectmanager for the Northern Front
Range and the Lower South PlatteBasin for Colorado Open Lands.
Paint the scene for us.
Um, and it's a state in relationto where we're at here in
Denver.
Carmen Farmer (05:38):
We're in that metro area right now.
So the South Platte River runsthrough Denver.
Um, starts, headwaters are up inthe mountains in a place called
South Park.
Um, not to be confused with theTV show.
Although the creators are fromthis area.
Um, and there's an interestingnexus there.
Um, it flows all the way out tothe Nebraska border.
So I kind of cover this entirearea.
Um, and this is the fastestgrowing part of Colorado, you
know, for a while in Denver, wehad 10,000 people a month moving
(06:01):
to Denver.
We, we have a housing shortagehere.
Um, and so that's why you'reseeing all of this new
construction.
Um, we just can't keep up withthe pace of people moving here.
You're talking about trafficearlier.
That's part of it too, you know,all the infrastructure that goes
along with it.
And so my job is to go out andmeet with landowners, some of
these private folks that arebeing approached by development
and talk to them aboutconserving that land protecting
(06:24):
that land and the way we do thatis through a legal tool called a
conservation easement.
And that's where my lawbackground comes into play.
I structure those deals.
I work with the landowners.
There's some prettysophisticated tax law that goes
into it because there are reallyrobust tax benefits both on a
federal level and then on astate level that those
landowners can avail themselvesof if they protect that land.
(06:45):
Now we do this in the context ofall this growth.
It's not like we just want to goout and prevent growth.
That's not the idea.
The idea is to try to thinkabout those communities, how
they can grow and how they canprotect the places that are most
important to them.
Whether that's a riparian areathat provides a lot of
biodiversity.
Charles Schelle (07:02):
We have a little, uh, lawn mowing action
in the background.
Carmen Farmer (07:05):
Yeah.
Yeah.
On this nice Kentucky bluegrassout here that's being irrigated
with senior water rights.
Oh.
Yeah, nicely done.
Very diplomatic.
Charles Schelle (07:18):
You know.
We'll leave part of that in.
But.
But you were, um, just a resetafter our little, uh, lawn
mowing pause for a second, youwere, you were talking about,
uh, the conservation easementsand what that allows, um, people
to do.
Carmen Farmer (07:33):
Yeah.
And so we, we use conservationeasements to incentivize, um,
uh, the protection of land andwater rights.
Water rights are a whole notherbig thing out here.
We've only got so much water.
You probably heard about theColorado River on the other side
on the western slope, um, facingchallenges.
And that's because we've overappropriated those water rights.
And a lot of those water rightsare on, um, Irrigated
agricultural farms out here, um,you know, contrasted to Maryland
(07:55):
where we get 50 to 55 inches ofrain a year, out here we're
getting more like 12 to 14inches of rain.
So you can't grow much withoutwater rights.
Um, however, we've got, youknow, competing interests when
we build developments, we needwater rights for the taps.
For the irrigated grass that'sat this hotel, all those things.
And so there's this tremendouspressure on land and water out
here that we're facing right nowas we grow.
(08:16):
And so what my job is to sitdown and think about with the
communities, whether it's Denveror Boulder or Fort Collins or
any of the front rangecommunities in this basin, how
you can grow and protect thoseareas that you want to protect.
Do you need more publicrecreational space that people
can walk to?
That's a big, you know, accessis a big issue out here.
Not everybody has a car or canafford to go pay 30 to go into
Rocky Mountain National Park.
(08:37):
And so we think about placesthat we protect as pocket parks
or places that are inunderserved communities where
they historically haven't hadaccess to green spaces.
Think about COVID.
When that went down, everyonewent outside.
We couldn't go to ourtraditional places to, to do the
things we did.
And so we all went outside andthat was from a mental health
perspective.
So important.
Um, a lot of these communitiesdon't have access to that.
(08:58):
Um, and so.
When we talk about a communityand what they want to protect,
maybe it's their rural economy,so they want to protect the farm
ground around it.
Maybe it's just their growingpopulation, um, and they want to
be able to provide those placesfor people to just go walk.
Um, or maybe there's aparticular species that's
endangered in that area andthey're like, look, this is the
last stretch of this creek wherethis cutthroat trout lives.
(09:20):
We need to make sure that weprotect that area.
We can build a conservationeasement based upon different
outcomes.
And so that's what we do.
It's community based planning,essentially.
Like I mentioned, I had studiedurban planning and this was a
big thing.
Smart growth came out ofMaryland.
Um, and we, we did the samething on the Eastern Shore where
we were trying to protect landsover there, um, as, as Maryland
was growing, right?
I mean, you guys are veryfamiliar with that.
(09:40):
Um, and so that's kind of whatwe're doing here.
Um, it feels like a.
You're swimming upstream in manyways, but I like to think that
we're putting a little bit of adent in the universe and it's
not just Colorado.
I mean, my organization is, youknow, we work within the corners
of Colorado, but we're on thehill in D.C., right now working
on the farm bill and negotiatingwith our senators, um, and
trying to work on farmlandprotection funding that will not
(10:03):
just come to Colorado, but goacross the country.
And so it's, it's kind of funthat, you know, even though, you
know, I work within the fourcorners of Colorado, we're doing
policy work that stretchesacross the country and, and, and
actually as a model, you know,our state tax credit here, which
is transferable, um, which is abig deal.
It means that a landowner doesconservation easement, gets a
tax credit, they might not havea lot of income tax from a
(10:24):
Colorado perspective, they cansell it to Amazon or sell it to
Hewlett Packard.
And so there's only five statesthat do that and Colorado was
one of the first.
And so there are a lot ofinnovative things that come out
of Colorado that get taken byother states and applied in the
land conservation space.
And so it's kind of excitingthat, you know, even though we
work within, You know the statewe some of the policies and
(10:45):
things that we do kind of havefar reaching effects.
Charles Schelle (10:47):
That's good to hear This is my second time in
Denver and the first time comingout here, I was surprised going
up to Boulder just the lengthywalking and exercise trails that
run along the highway and justseeing everybody out there.
But the other thing thatsurprised me was about the, the
water challenges when someonetold me, it's like, this is
(11:07):
basically a desert state.
And I was like, I'm like, Iwouldn't have guessed that
because you have a lot of grassand then you have all these, you
know, snow for, from skiing, butlike you're tapped out.
And to that point on the otherside of the mountains, um, there
are active wildfires and, andyou're no stranger to here.
And to that end, I thinkwildfires right now are in the
(11:29):
front of a lot of people's mindbecause of Maui.
And so I know you're, you're,you're focused on, land policy
and conservation, but I'mwondering if anything that's had
have happened out there and kindof like the postmortem of, of
what caused those fires, ifthat's going through that those
conversations are going throughyour organization at all about
(11:50):
the utility company and peoplebeing prepared with emergency
sirens and, um, you know, accessto getting water because there's
a, Uh, issue about people notproviding water access to fight
the fires out there.
So, I don't know if any of thosethings are all of a sudden now
top of mind.
Carmen Farmer (12:07):
Yeah, I mean, it's, well, one, you sort of,
you feel for those people outthere.
I mean, you don't think aboutsomething like that happening in
a place like, like Maui.
Um, it's, it's always top ofmind here.
You all came at a pretty goodtime.
Usually this time of yearthere's some fire going on.
It might not be in Colorado, itmight be two states over.
Um, you know, in 2020, we, uh,we had fires that, you know, in
Denver that were 200 miles awaywhere you go outside and there'd
(12:29):
be ash on your car, um, becauseit blew, blows in and, and so
air quality is a massive issue.
In the mountains, um, foresttreatment is an issue in terms
of, you know, we have a lot ofmountain communities that, you
know, that we've got 100 yearsof fire suppression.
And so what that's doneecologically is created this
tapestry or this, this, thiscarpet of just forest
monoculture trees, a lot ofDouglas fir, essentially not to
(12:51):
get in the weeds here, butthere, there's a lot of fire
danger and climate change andclimate building and climate
resiliency, whether that'saccess to water or thinning
those forests or starting tomanage those forests in a way
that they were, you know,historically for tens of
thousands of years, um, managedwith, you know, out suppression.
So that's fires that werestarted by lightning or fires
(13:12):
that were started by FirstNations.
You know, we're on the ancestrallands of the Cheyenne, the Ute
and Arapaho right now, and theywould start fires.
Um, that was part of thelandscape and part of clearing
out meadows and bringing in, uh,species, game species and things
like that.
And so, you know, we've createdthis system here, um, where, you
know, we are susceptible to fireand it, it's, it's top of mind
(13:33):
for a lot of folks.
Um, And then you combine thatwith, you know, we've been in a
20 year drought until this pastyear.
We had the biggest snowpackwe've had in 20 years, and then
we had the wettest spring we'vehad.
Um, but other than that, youknow, we, we've been living
consistently with drought outhere.
And, and so.
We're constantly thinking aboutfire and thinking about
utilizing resources and havingthe emergency systems in place
(13:55):
and also just managing for fire.
Um, you know, a lot of, a lot ofcommunities, Boulder included,
they had a fire on New Year'sEve a couple of years ago.
It was crazy.
Um, you think about the middleof the winter, then you're going
to have this fire, but that'swhat we, we live with.
And so a lot of it's the landmanagement techniques.
So getting out here, grazinggrasslands, thinning forests so
that they, they, they look alittle bit more like they
historically did.
Um, having a little bit of a,um, more diverse forest system,
(14:18):
not just one set of trees thatare the same age.
Um, and so this is getting alittle bit into the weeds.
But yeah, it's always, um, topof mind for us.
I think you guys got a taste ofit earlier this year with the
fires that came down.
You saw the apocalyptic photosin New York City.
Yeah, um, that's every summerhere.
Not to that extent, but youknow, somewhere along that
spectrum.
And so that's part of living inthe Mountain West.
And yeah, it was eye openingwhen I came out here, because
(14:39):
you think about all the rain weget in the water, water, um, in
the Chesapeake Bay area.
It's just very different and,uh, it's going to continue to be
an issue as we have, you know,climate change and drier climate
and these, these crazy stormsand things like that.
Dana Rampolla (14:55):
Well, you just mentioned the Chesapeake Bay, so
let's take it back to Marylandfor a minute.
You were a land use attorney onthe Eastern Shore for a bit,
right?
Carmen Farmer (15:03):
Yeah.
Dana Rampolla (15:03):
And was that to help farmers and the produce
that's growing there or how didthat work?
Carmen Farmer (15:07):
It was a mix.
You know, I was, I was a youngattorney coming out of law
school, um, and worked for smallfirms like five attorneys, um, a
junior associates.
You kind of get handedeverything.
Dana Rampolla (15:16):
Okay.
Carmen Farmer (15:17):
It was, it was a great way to learn.
You know, yes, sometimes we wereworking with farmers that were,
and we were representing themand they were interested in
protecting their land.
Other times I'd have a landownerthat was.
You know, had this big secondhome property on a, you know,
river on the bay.
And they were like, Hey, I'dlike to build a 10, 000 square
foot house, you know, in thecritical area, as close to the
water as possible.
And I want to have a helipad soI can like get to my office in
(15:40):
Baltimore.
Uh, and so you, it was mixed,you know, you, you kind of take
whatever you can get.
And, um, You know, it was, itwas a fun learning experience,
and I did that for about fiveyears.
I'd started to interface withthe land trust community, and
that's what really spoke to me.
And, and that's where I, youknow, kind of made the conscious
decision, okay, like, I cut myteeth in private practice, um,
but I want to do work that's alittle bit more meaningful to
(16:02):
me.
And so then I, I, I, Went overto the Eastern Shore Land
Conservancy, which is anothernonprofit similar to Colorado
Open Lands, but focused on theeast of the six counties on the
eastern shore, um, that weworked with in the upper
watershed and, uh, loved it.
Um, it was like, okay, this is,this is what I need to do with,
with my life.
And there's also a little morework life balance there.
(16:23):
So you could go recreate, youknow, there it was, you know,
weekends looked a little bitmore like going out on the boat.
Um, now you're up in themountains.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So a little bit of a contrast.
But, um, just being outside.
Yeah.
Dana Rampolla (16:33):
Did, um, would you, is there anything in
particular about attending theUniversity of Maryland Carey
School of Law that, that youfeel really contributed to your
ability to grow in those areasand become involved?
Carmen Farmer (16:46):
I mean, absolutely.
The environmental law programthey have there, it's, it's
renowned and, um, you know,Professor, uh, Bob Percival was
one of my influential professorsthere.
And, um, having the access toenvironmental groups, uh, like
the Chesapeake Bay Foundationand just right in your backyard.
I mean, they're based inAnnapolis, you know, we're in
Baltimore.
Um, I think there's an alsointeresting intersection between
(17:08):
the, you know, the urbanplanning departments at the
University of Maryland CollegePark.
Um, where smart, the term smartgrowth or the concept came out
of, um, and so there were a lotof synergies there that I really
appreciated.
And then of course, DC is rightdown the road.
So in terms of policy and havingaccess to that, um, from a
federal standpoint, um, yeah, itwas, it was a wonderful place to
go to school and I got thereright when the new law school
(17:30):
was built.
So, you know, we, we were inthis state of the art building
that was just.
It's beautifully designed froman architectural standpoint, but
then also just an inspiringplace to learn.
Um, and, you know, I lived twoblocks away, you know, in the
shadow of Camden Yards.
And it was, it was fun, youknow, I was a kid that came from
rural Virginia and this was myfirst time living in a city.
I now live downtown Denver in alittle condo.
(17:51):
Um, so it was, it was in termsof me, like from a personal
growth perspective, but alsoprofessionally like it was, it
was a wonderful place to be.
Dana Rampolla (17:59):
That's great.
That's fantastic.
Charles Schelle (18:00):
I think you, you touched on this a little bit
earlier, but how is managingland farming and other resources
in Colorado different than inMaryland?
I mean, obviously geogeographically, it's very
different.
Carmen Farmer (18:12):
Yeah.
I think the biggest one is justthe water component.
You know, you can, you can growcorn in Maryland without.
Irrigating it, you know, youcan, you get enough rainfall or
for other crops like that.
And so out here, if you reallywant to have a productive
agricultural operation, you'vegot to have irrigation water.
And the irrigation water is insome cases more expensive than
the actual land.
(18:32):
And so, uh, That's part of,there's a whole history of the
riparian doctrine versus theprior appropriation doctrine out
here which is very differentthan what we do on the east
coast.
At the east coast you have acreek that runs through your
property you can access thatwater.
Here you've got to go file incourt to get a water right and
there's a prior appropriationdoctrine so first person to put
it, you know, if you have an1862 water right that's superior
(18:53):
to a 1950 water right and so ifthere's not enough water in the
river your junior water right,your 1950 water right or
whatever, you might not be ableto draw upon that water.
And so there's this complicatedsystem that we've done out here
in the West, in Colorado and inother states in the Mountain
West, um, where, you know,there's, there's a saying out
here that, that whiskey's fordrinking and water's for
fighting.
(19:14):
Um, and, uh, that's just becausethere were, you know, in the, in
the 1870s and stuff.
Dana Rampolla (19:19):
You seemed awfully happy this morning!
Carmen Farmer (19:21):
A little whisky in my cup?
No.
Um, uh, yeah.
I mean, there, there were a lotof fights over water and there
still are in court, um, becauseit's, it's a resource that we.
If over appropriated, we don'thave enough, but it unlocks
everything here.
I mean, we are in a highaltitude desert.
You're at a little over 5, 000feet here at Denver in
elevation.
They call it the Mile High Cityfor a reason.
(19:41):
It's hard to grow things outhere, but yet we have one of the
biggest rural economies in thecountry.
Weld County, just north of herea little bit, is a top 10
producing county in the entirecountry.
And so they are competing withplaces like Southern California,
where you have a much longergrowing season.
Um, and so you can grow a lotmore crops, and yet we're able
(20:02):
to export, I mean we export toChina, we export to, um, the EU,
I mean it's a major part of theeconomy out here.
Everybody talks about like theski economy, or like we have a
growing tech economy and otherthings like that, but, um, one
of our biggest, um, from a GDPperspective, um, economies out
here is the agriculturaleconomy, um, and so, you know,
(20:22):
contrasting that back east, it'sthe water.
You know, we wouldn't have thateconomy.
if we didn't have theinfrastructure in place to store
water, to divert water, theditches, and all those kind of
things out here, um, to put itto use.
I mean, we wouldn't have thishotel here without the water.
Right.
Dana Rampolla (20:36):
Do you do anything like Florida with gray
water?
Carmen Farmer (20:39):
We do.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's become a big thing here.
Water efficiencies,conservation.
Um, We're starting to seecommunities pay people to take,
you know, Kentucky bluegrass outand to do zero escaping and
things of that nature.
Um, It's just part of, part ofthe equation in terms of how we
can make that water go a littlebit farther.
We reuse water multiple times.
So there's a, there's a sayinghere that in Denver, when you
flush your toilet, it gets usedseven times before it hits the
(21:01):
border in Nebraska.
And that there's some truth tothat because it goes back into
the river system.
It gets picked up by anirrigator.
They put it on their farm.
Their crop might consume some ofit, but some of it gets, you
know, return flows back into theriver system or the aquifer, and
so it gets picked up multipletimes.
Charles Schelle (21:15):
It seems like, uh, water rights are almost as,
uh, great as, uh, rights for,gold and prospecting for mining.
Carmen Farmer (21:23):
Yeah, it's getting to that point.
Every once in a while you hearabout, um, you know, efforts to,
oh, we'll pipe water from theMississippi, or, well, yeah,
just because it gets to a pricepoint where it's so expensive to
acquire water rights becausethere's only so many of them and
it's a commodity, right?
Like...
Yeah.
Um, and, and honestly, I wish inlaw school, I'd have had access
to studying water law.
I mean, it was, it was, uh, kindof thrown into that deep end
(21:45):
when I came out here, because Ididn't have any experience in
that.
And I was like, Oh, wow, I needto pick this up quickly.
That and the mineraldevelopment.
Um, you know, that's somethingwe haven't touched upon here.
And a part of what we do istrying to figure out, because
there's a lot of oil and gasdevelopment out here.
Um, and, um, when, if you headnorth a little bit, you'll see.
Uh, wells everywhere and they'reconstantly still drilling and
there's a fair bit of frackinggoing on and we're trying to
figure out how we come to termswith that in the case of
(22:08):
protecting land and coexistingwith, with those natural
resource extraction activities.
Um, yeah, I mean this place wassettled because of gold and
silver mining.
Um, so there's always a historyof some sort of extraction,
whether it's that or oil and gasor timber, you know, and so
trying to figure out how allthose multiple different users.
(22:29):
Use the water and the, the, the,the land is, you know, it's an
interesting place to, to be.
Charles Schelle (22:34):
Absolutely.
Dana Rampolla (22:36):
Well, Charles alluded to in the beginning,
there's another, a whole notherside to you.
We, we know you're an outdoorsykind of person.
Um, I think it's reallyinteresting how the, the Rockies
and the plains intersect here.
Tell us how your life intersectswith.
with athletics and specificallyrugby.
Carmen Farmer (22:50):
Yeah, I, um, well, I grew up, uh, playing
sports, um, basketball, went toschool in undergrad and played
softball on a scholarship, um,and so it was always kind of
part of my life, um, and then Iwent to law school and it was
kind of like all focused onschool, um, and then after that
career, and so there's a 10 yearperiod where I didn't really
have any sort of athletic sportcomponents to life, um, and
(23:12):
then, um, And I turned 30, Iwent on a trip with actually a
couple of other University ofMaryland grads.
A friend of mine, BriannaStrapoli, she's listening, um,
she organized this trip toAfrica, to Tanzania, um, to
climb Kilimanjaro.
And um, while we were up there,it was kind of an epiphany.
This was also the time where Iwas transitioning from private
practice to, uh, the land usefield and non profit sector.
(23:33):
Um, I mentioned, I ran intosomeone that was on that trip
that was from Australia and theymentioned this rugby thing.
And I was like, what rugby?
I never really heard of rugby.
Yeah, yeah.
I mean, it's pretty undergroundhere.
Um, and so she was like, you'dprobably be pretty good at it.
And I was like, Oh, I'm kind oftrying to like, reincorporate
some level of sport in my life.
I'm 30.
Like, if I'm going to do that,this is the last chance I'll
probably have to do that.
So I got home, looked it up.
(23:54):
There's a club in Annapolis,Severn River Rugby, um, a
women's club and a men's club.
And I'm like, these adults dothis?
Like there's an adult league.
Um, and so I showed up to apractice and was like, Whoa,
this is, this is cool.
This is different.
Um, and, uh, it, it kind ofescalated into this whole thing.
Like I played a season withthem.
We went to nationals.
There's a national championshipevery year.
(24:15):
Uh, and there were USA scoutsthere and they approached me
afterwards after we had justactually lost a national
championship game.
And so, uh, you know, we're allhaving beers and you're just
sort of like trying to relax.
He's like, what do you thinkabout your rugby career?
I'm like, what, what's a rugbycareer?
Dana Rampolla (24:29):
I have a career.
I haven't had a long time tobuild.
Carmen Farmer (24:31):
Um, And so I started going to these USA
camps, um, rugby wasreintroduced into the Olympics
in 2016, um, and it was sort oflike, wow, this, this could be a
thing.
And, and, um, it ended up reallybecoming a thing.
My parents laughed.
They were like, this is a cutelittle hobby you have.
Like, is this like a midlifecrisis thing?
(24:52):
Um, and no, so I started goingto camps.
Uh, actually out here inColorado initially, um, and then
got really serious about it andhad to move to San Diego.
We have an Olympic trainingcenter outside of San Diego in
Chula Vista, and so two yearsbefore the Olympics, I, I talked
to, you know, I was working atthe Eastern Shore Land
Conservancy at the time.
I was like, Hey guys, I havethis opportunity.
Would you allow me to work parttime and sort of train out
there?
And so moved out there.
(25:13):
I'd get up at like five o'clockto take, you know, eight o'clock
a.
m.
meetings in, in Maryland.
Um, work in the morning, gotrain all day, come home, work
and, um, but it was one of thosethings I, it was, it was an
interesting moment in life whereyou sort of ask yourself, okay,
this is going to be reallytough, um, both professionally,
mentally, physically at thatstage in your life.
(25:33):
Um, but would you regret it?
And, and that was the point.
It was like, I had an outsidechance.
Like I was not like, I gotinvited out.
They were like, we're not goingto pay you yet.
We're not quite sure.
Um, and, uh, cause it isprofessional now.
Um, but.
I was, I was like, I'm going totake a chance.
I can do it for two years and itsomehow worked out.
I ended up getting picked in2016 to go to Rio, um, which was
(25:56):
a, another amazing experience.
Something I never would havethought would happen.
Um, and yeah, so there's some, Imean, we're seven years removed
from that now.
Um, but it's, it's kind ofinteresting to look back on
sometimes I'm like, did thatreally happen?
Like, yeah.
And I was an older athlete, Iwas 35 at the time.
Um, I remember distinctly in theathlete village one time I got
on the elevator cause you're,you know, we have a USA
(26:17):
building.
It's.
Hundreds of us that are there.
I mean, we're the largestcontingent that goes and, um,
you know, I got on the elevatorand these, these coaches were
like, what, what sport do youcoach?
Dana Rampolla (26:28):
Thanks, bud.
Carmen Farmer (26:28):
I was like, I'm actually here to compete.
Yeah.
The average age is like, yeah,there's a bunch of like 22 year
olds running around.
This is all they do.
They just train.
Dana Rampolla (26:35):
Right.
Carmen Farmer (26:36):
But it gave me this really interesting
perspective because, you know, Ihave my professional life and
it's such a mental game in termsof like.
Getting to that point, likecompeting every once every four
years, right?
Like, and, and just like the,you know, we had sports
psychologists and folks thathelped us think about that and
deal with the pressure and allthat stuff.
But I was kind of like, this isjust icing on top of the cake.
(26:56):
Like I, I had no expectation tobe here initially.
Like, um, and so it gave me thissort of nice little armor where
I was like, I don't care.
Like I've got my day job.
I'm going back to like, I lovewhat I do.
Like my passion is in my work.
This is another part anotherdimension of my life.
That's wonderful.
But so it was an interestingplace to be in.
Um, Yeah, so
Dana Rampolla (27:15):
yeah, that's awesome.
Thanks for sharing that.
That's really wonderful.
And rugby is such a great sport.
You learn so many things fromit.
Self resiliency and just beingstrong and enduring.
Carmen Farmer (27:25):
Absolutely.
And it's a very, uh, open,inclusive space.
Um, you know, and, and, and it'salways been that way come as you
are all kinds of body types.
Um, it doesn't, you know, whereyou're what your skill level is.
Um, how you identify, whatever.
I mean, we, we, we try to bepretty open and it's also, it's,
it's a worldwide sport.
It's not huge here.
It's growing.
But, um, you know, I've been allover the world, New Zealand, um,
(27:47):
England, Fiji, um, just to playand, and, you know, it's, it's a
worldwide community and it's,um, the camaraderie that, that
goes into it as well.
You know, we, we smash into eachother on the pitch and then
afterwards, you know, you hostthe other team, you, you, you do
a dinner.
You have drinks.
And so it was, you know, it wasvery different than some of the
other sports that I played.
(28:07):
Um, and, um, I really appreciatethat about it and have friends
all over the world because ofthat.
Dana Rampolla (28:12):
That's amazing.
Charles Schelle (28:13):
You mentioned that it's growing and I feel
like it's to the point now,especially in the last year or
so, where it's going beyond thatOlympic cycle and you're seeing
more of it, especially on theEast Coast, it's getting
televised more, which is, youknow, huge to get that exposure.
I was looking up, I was like,well, I wonder if there's any
teams around here.
It's like, well, you, you don'tonly have a team, you have a
(28:34):
women's team, the Colorado GrayWolves, who are three time
champions.
Carmen Farmer (28:38):
I played on that team.
Really?
Um.
Yeah, yeah, it is.
And it's I think the biggestthing that's starting to happen
is you're seeing varsityprograms in colleges and that
for the longest time it was a itwas a club sport.
And so you didn't havescholarship opportunities You
didn't have the funding that wasgoing into it like other
(28:59):
traditional NCAA sports and sothat's going to be the To a
point that really pivots it, Ithink, you know, like it's still
like we're, we're competitive onthe world stage, um, to a
certain extent in the Olympics.
We took fifth place.
We didn't medal, unfortunately,um, but it's, it's, it's going
to take, I think that investmentboth at the youth level, but
really in my mind at the NCAAlevel, because that legitimizes
(29:21):
it from a parent's perspective.
So like if, if I'm a 16-year-oldkid and I'm like, Hey mom, I
want to go to college and play asport, you know, they're
probably going to be moreinterested if it's a sport like
soccer or something where youcan get a scholarship as opposed
to a more obscure sport.
And so I think that'll really bethe trigger point where we'll
start to see it growtremendously, uh, in the next
few years.
Charles Schelle (29:39):
There is a DC team, Old Glory.
you can see back home inVirginia in Leesburg.
And, and I saw that, uh, someAustralian teams are actually
coming over to play some gamesin Las Vegas to get more
exposure too.
So, you know, they're, they'reall in to, to grow the sport.
And now we have the, you know.
Olympics returning to Paris, uh,in 2024 next year.
So are you going to try to keepup with Team USA or even think
(30:01):
about flying out there to watch?
Carmen Farmer (30:03):
Yeah, definitely keep up.
I still know a few of the folkson both the men's and the
women's teams and they both havequalified, which is amazing.
Um, I don't know if I'll make itout.
I went to New Zealand to watchthe Rugby World Cup last year,
which was quite an experiencebecause we also have a world,
you know, much like the soccerworld cup, the women's soccer
world cup that just went on.
Um, we do the same thing toowith rugby.
Um, we'll see, I don't know, youknow, um, it's, it's going to an
(30:24):
Olympics as a spectator ispretty special to you.
After we were finished playing,I got to stick around and just
go see different events.
And I mean, it's.
That's just, it's, it's such aninteresting event.
I mean, the, the, the world'seyes are literally on it and
it's not just a niche sport.
It's all the different sports,right?
Um, and so it's, it's pretty,pretty cool to see all these
(30:44):
different countries convene andeven as an athlete, you know, we
all have one dining hall sentlike center and seeing all the
different countries cometogether.
And, and we're all literallybreaking bread in the same room
and the different countriesthat, you know, sometimes from a
political perspective, we're notalways getting along, but from
an athlete's perspective, likewe connect on that.
Like, Oh, you went through thesame struggles I went through to
(31:05):
get here and you're a personjust like me.
And so there is somethingbeautiful.
There's a lot of things that arewrong with the Olympics in terms
of infrastructure and otherthings like that.
But, um, there are a lot ofreally nice, beautiful things
about it too, that I think, youknow, I, I get excited when it
comes around every four years.
Dana Rampolla (31:20):
Maybe we should put a few of the politicians in
a rugby game and then we'll seewhat they really got into.
Carmen Farmer (31:25):
Yeah.
Charles Schelle (31:27):
I was gonna say, it's probably nice, uh, to
have those experiences in the,in the dining hall because I'm
sure you, you might've beenawestruck.
I don't know if there was anyother Olympian athlete that
you're like, Oh, uh, MichaelPhelps.
Is that you?
Carmen Farmer (31:40):
We got a photo with Michael Phelps and I was
like, Hey, I live in Maryland.
He was like in what part Um,yeah, I mean, there's actually
before the opening ceremonies,there's a big get together.
It's almost like a, um, meet andgreet between all the athletes.
And so everyone's gettingselfies, like with Serena
Williams and, um, yeah, and we,we, we all, you know, we saw, I
saw Michael and I was like,guys, we got to go get a photo
(32:01):
with him.
Dana Rampolla (32:01):
Um, he's basically my next door neighbor.
Carmen Farmer (32:03):
Yeah, yeah, totally.
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
He's like, who's this girl?
Yeah.
Um, yeah, it, it, it is, I mean,it's, it's, it's pretty
otherworldly when you start tosee some of those other athletes
there and, um, It's, most of usare staying in the same
building.
Some of the teams, like the, thewomen's soccer team, they're
rock stars.
They're staying at some, like,five star resort.
(32:23):
We didn't run into them,actually, until we went to, we
got invited to the White Houseafterwards.
And so we ran into some of the,those players.
And even, you know, us as, asrugby players, we were like, Oh
my God, can I get a photo withyou?
I guess, totally starstruck.
But, um, yeah, it's, it's, it's,it's such an interesting
experience.
Dana Rampolla (32:38):
Well, Carmen, thanks for being here today,
taking time out of your busyschedule and just sharing some
information about yourtrajectory and how you got where
you are, but it's reallyexciting to hear the personal
part mixed in, so we appreciateyou sharing that, and thanks for
joining the pulse.
Carmen Farmer (32:53):
Yeah.
Thanks for having me.
Charles Schelle (32:54):
Thank you.
Jena Frick (33:01):
The UMB Pulse with Charles Chalet and Dana Rampolla
is a UMB Office ofCommunications and Public
Affairs production, edited byCharles Chalet, marketing by
Dana Rampolla.
Dana, just breathe in that mountain air.
Dana Rampolla (00:02):
Oh my gosh, it is beautiful out here, Charles.
We've got some haze in thebackground, so you can't really
see the mountains too welltoday.
Charles Schelle (00:08):
Yeah, if you look out in the distance, you
can see some peaks out there,but with that wind rolling off
the mountains.
It's a new school year breeze,as I like to say.
It's a new season of The Pulse,right?
Dana Rampolla (00:19):
It is, and we're kicking it off with one of our
own alumni from the Universityof Maryland Baltimore, Carey
School of Law, and her name isCarmen Farmer.
Carmen works out here, but sheactually spent a fair amount of
time in, um, in Baltimorestudying and doing some
interesting things on theEastern Shore.
We'll be hearing about thattoday.
Charles Schelle (00:37):
Yeah.
And you're probably wondering,where are we?
We are in Denver, Colorado rightnow at the Podcast Movement
Conference.
And we're here to learn how toimprove the podcast for our
loyal listeners, our Pulse Palsas we like to call them.
So, uh, we figured why not do apodcast out here and talk to an
alum?
We have UMB alumni everywhere.
Dana Rampolla (00:57):
Yeah.
And it was kind of hard tonarrow it down.
We, we have some dentists outhere who we considered, but
Carmen is our go to person forthe day.
She's a senior conservationproject manager for the Northern
Front Range and Lower SouthPlatte Basin for Colorado Open
Lands, and that's a nonprofit.
They're dedicated to protectingland and water in Colorado.
Colorado, and she's going togive us a lot more specifics
(01:17):
about what that means.
Charles Schelle (01:18):
That's exciting.
And on top of all of that, she'san Olympian.
And as I say, once an Olympian,always an Olympian and
representing Team USA rugby inthe Rio Olympics.
So that's going to be fun totalk about too.
Dana Rampolla (01:30):
Yep.
Well, let's bring her on.
Charles Schelle (01:32):
Yes.
Let's get the, uh, show on theroad for the UMB Pulse.
You're listening to theheartbeat of the University of
Maryland, Baltimore, the UMBPulse.
(01:53):
Carmen, uh, thank you for joining us here in
Colorado.
Dana Rampolla (01:56):
Yeah.
You said you hit a little bit oftraffic, so it was a little, a
little bit of a drive.
But not too bad.
Carmen Farmer (02:01):
No, not too bad at all.
Um, thanks for having me.
Um, welcome to Colorado.
You guys have a wonderful viewhere, obviously.
And, uh, hopefully you'regetting to experience a little
bit of it.
Dana Rampolla (02:10):
Yeah.
You must enjoy living out here.
How long have you been inColorado?
I've been here seven years,seven years.
And you came out here for work,right?
Carmen Farmer (02:18):
I did.
Yeah.
Um, initially to, to work withColorado Open Lands, um, I'd
been coming out here though, totrain for rugby.
Dana Rampolla (02:24):
And we probably talk about that a little bit
more in a bit, but, um, yeah, Ilove it.
It's home now.
I love the mountains.
It's every weekend I'm out andabout camping, hiking, climbing,
skiing in the winter.
So yeah.
Charles, she's a hard lady tocatch up with back from Africa,
right?
Carmen Farmer (02:39):
Yeah, I did.
I did a two week trip to SouthAfrica to go, uh, volunteer at a
rhino sanctuary.
And uh, so yeah, I stayed prettybusy.
Dana Rampolla (02:46):
That's amazing.
Tell us a little bit about yourtrajectory educationally.
So we'll dive into work in acouple of minutes.
But...
How, what did you start outstudying?
How did you wind up at UMB andhow did that ultimately get you
out here?
Carmen Farmer (02:59):
Yeah, uh, I grew up in Richmond, Virginia.
I went to undergrad at VirginiaTech where I studied urban
planning, um, and then ended upgoing to law school at
University of Maryland inBaltimore.
Uh, and, uh, I had sort of anenvironmental, uh, lean there
and, and studied land useplanning and, and things of that
nature.
Um, subsequently to that, I, uh,clerked in federal district
(03:21):
court in Greenbelt, um, and, uh,and then took a job with, uh,
um, a land use law firm on theEastern Shore of Maryland and
lived in Maryland for quite awhile.
So pretty special place for me.
Charles Schelle (03:32):
Let's learn about the nonprofit you work
for.
Uh, what is Colorado Open Landsand why is it important to the
state?
Carmen Farmer (03:40):
Yeah.
Colorado Open Lands is astatewide land trust.
Um, as you mentioned, we're anonprofit and our mission is
essentially to protect openspaces, uh, farmland, uh, ranch
land.
Uh, in Colorado we've protectednearly 700,000 acres.
Um, and the reason we do that isbecause we're growing.
I mean, you're, you've got thisperfect backdrop because we have
sprawling subdivision houses outhere on the prairie.
(04:02):
We're about 15 miles, uh, eastof Denver, um, in a growing
metro area.
And, uh, like me, there's manyof us that have moved out here
because we enjoy the access tothe mountains.
Um, unfortunately, you know,we're We're growing at an
exponential pace and eating upsome of our best farm ground.
So we're our best habitat forthe other species that coexist
(04:23):
with us out here.
And, um, our wonderful views,um, and, uh, you know, our
public recreationalopportunities.
We have a lot of public land outhere.
But at the pace that we'regrowing, we're loving it to
death.
If you go to Rocky MountainNational Park, they get four
million visitors a year.
You've got to get a timed entrypass to get into there now.
Um, and so we're just crawlingall over those open lands we
(04:44):
have out here.
And so part of our mission is totry to find those last best
places that we can protect.
Um, that both provide places forus to grow food, places for us
to recreate, and then places forrest for the wildlife and other
species that, as I mentioned,are out here with us.
Charles Schelle (05:00):
It is surprising to see the sprawl
here.
It's a nicely dense city andthen, as right behind us, you
might be able to see newlyconstructed or under
construction homes and townhomesand then some of those homes are
approaching.
Uh, you know, parkland on theborder, like the Rocky Mountain
National Arsenal.
Like, you drive out and then,bam, there's a new development
(05:23):
right there.
So, but let's, let's talk aboutwhat the land actually covers it
and your region.
You're the senior projectmanager for the Northern Front
Range and the Lower South PlatteBasin for Colorado Open Lands.
Paint the scene for us.
Um, and it's a state in relationto where we're at here in
Denver.
Carmen Farmer (05:38):
We're in that metro area right now.
So the South Platte River runsthrough Denver.
Um, starts, headwaters are up inthe mountains in a place called
South Park.
Um, not to be confused with theTV show.
Although the creators are fromthis area.
Um, and there's an interestingnexus there.
Um, it flows all the way out tothe Nebraska border.
So I kind of cover this entirearea.
Um, and this is the fastestgrowing part of Colorado, you
know, for a while in Denver, wehad 10,000 people a month moving
(06:01):
to Denver.
We, we have a housing shortagehere.
Um, and so that's why you'reseeing all of this new
construction.
Um, we just can't keep up withthe pace of people moving here.
You're talking about trafficearlier.
That's part of it too, you know,all the infrastructure that goes
along with it.
And so my job is to go out andmeet with landowners, some of
these private folks that arebeing approached by development
and talk to them aboutconserving that land protecting
(06:24):
that land and the way we do thatis through a legal tool called a
conservation easement.
And that's where my lawbackground comes into play.
I structure those deals.
I work with the landowners.
There's some prettysophisticated tax law that goes
into it because there are reallyrobust tax benefits both on a
federal level and then on astate level that those
landowners can avail themselvesof if they protect that land.
(06:45):
Now we do this in the context ofall this growth.
It's not like we just want to goout and prevent growth.
That's not the idea.
The idea is to try to thinkabout those communities, how
they can grow and how they canprotect the places that are most
important to them.
Whether that's a riparian areathat provides a lot of
biodiversity.
Charles Schelle (07:02):
We have a little, uh, lawn mowing action
in the background.
Carmen Farmer (07:05):
Yeah.
Yeah.
On this nice Kentucky bluegrassout here that's being irrigated
with senior water rights.
Oh.
Yeah, nicely done.
Very diplomatic.
Charles Schelle (07:18):
You know.
We'll leave part of that in.
But.
But you were, um, just a resetafter our little, uh, lawn
mowing pause for a second, youwere, you were talking about,
uh, the conservation easementsand what that allows, um, people
to do.
Carmen Farmer (07:33):
Yeah.
And so we, we use conservationeasements to incentivize, um,
uh, the protection of land andwater rights.
Water rights are a whole notherbig thing out here.
We've only got so much water.
You probably heard about theColorado River on the other side
on the western slope, um, facingchallenges.
And that's because we've overappropriated those water rights.
And a lot of those water rightsare on, um, Irrigated
agricultural farms out here, um,you know, contrasted to Maryland
(07:55):
where we get 50 to 55 inches ofrain a year, out here we're
getting more like 12 to 14inches of rain.
So you can't grow much withoutwater rights.
Um, however, we've got, youknow, competing interests when
we build developments, we needwater rights for the taps.
For the irrigated grass that'sat this hotel, all those things.
And so there's this tremendouspressure on land and water out
here that we're facing right nowas we grow.
(08:16):
And so what my job is to sitdown and think about with the
communities, whether it's Denveror Boulder or Fort Collins or
any of the front rangecommunities in this basin, how
you can grow and protect thoseareas that you want to protect.
Do you need more publicrecreational space that people
can walk to?
That's a big, you know, accessis a big issue out here.
Not everybody has a car or canafford to go pay 30 to go into
Rocky Mountain National Park.
(08:37):
And so we think about placesthat we protect as pocket parks
or places that are inunderserved communities where
they historically haven't hadaccess to green spaces.
Think about COVID.
When that went down, everyonewent outside.
We couldn't go to ourtraditional places to, to do the
things we did.
And so we all went outside andthat was from a mental health
perspective.
So important.
Um, a lot of these communitiesdon't have access to that.
(08:58):
Um, and so.
When we talk about a communityand what they want to protect,
maybe it's their rural economy,so they want to protect the farm
ground around it.
Maybe it's just their growingpopulation, um, and they want to
be able to provide those placesfor people to just go walk.
Um, or maybe there's aparticular species that's
endangered in that area andthey're like, look, this is the
last stretch of this creek wherethis cutthroat trout lives.
(09:20):
We need to make sure that weprotect that area.
We can build a conservationeasement based upon different
outcomes.
And so that's what we do.
It's community based planning,essentially.
Like I mentioned, I had studiedurban planning and this was a
big thing.
Smart growth came out ofMaryland.
Um, and we, we did the samething on the Eastern Shore where
we were trying to protect landsover there, um, as, as Maryland
was growing, right?
I mean, you guys are veryfamiliar with that.
(09:40):
Um, and so that's kind of whatwe're doing here.
Um, it feels like a.
You're swimming upstream in manyways, but I like to think that
we're putting a little bit of adent in the universe and it's
not just Colorado.
I mean, my organization is, youknow, we work within the corners
of Colorado, but we're on thehill in D.C., right now working
on the farm bill and negotiatingwith our senators, um, and
trying to work on farmlandprotection funding that will not
(10:03):
just come to Colorado, but goacross the country.
And so it's, it's kind of funthat, you know, even though, you
know, I work within the fourcorners of Colorado, we're doing
policy work that stretchesacross the country and, and, and
actually as a model, you know,our state tax credit here, which
is transferable, um, which is abig deal.
It means that a landowner doesconservation easement, gets a
tax credit, they might not havea lot of income tax from a
(10:24):
Colorado perspective, they cansell it to Amazon or sell it to
Hewlett Packard.
And so there's only five statesthat do that and Colorado was
one of the first.
And so there are a lot ofinnovative things that come out
of Colorado that get taken byother states and applied in the
land conservation space.
And so it's kind of excitingthat, you know, even though we
work within, You know the statewe some of the policies and
(10:45):
things that we do kind of havefar reaching effects.
Charles Schelle (10:47):
That's good to hear This is my second time in
Denver and the first time comingout here, I was surprised going
up to Boulder just the lengthywalking and exercise trails that
run along the highway and justseeing everybody out there.
But the other thing thatsurprised me was about the, the
water challenges when someonetold me, it's like, this is
(11:07):
basically a desert state.
And I was like, I'm like, Iwouldn't have guessed that
because you have a lot of grassand then you have all these, you
know, snow for, from skiing, butlike you're tapped out.
And to that point on the otherside of the mountains, um, there
are active wildfires and, andyou're no stranger to here.
And to that end, I thinkwildfires right now are in the
(11:29):
front of a lot of people's mindbecause of Maui.
And so I know you're, you're,you're focused on, land policy
and conservation, but I'mwondering if anything that's had
have happened out there and kindof like the postmortem of, of
what caused those fires, ifthat's going through that those
conversations are going throughyour organization at all about
(11:50):
the utility company and peoplebeing prepared with emergency
sirens and, um, you know, accessto getting water because there's
a, Uh, issue about people notproviding water access to fight
the fires out there.
So, I don't know if any of thosethings are all of a sudden now
top of mind.
Carmen Farmer (12:07):
Yeah, I mean, it's, well, one, you sort of,
you feel for those people outthere.
I mean, you don't think aboutsomething like that happening in
a place like, like Maui.
Um, it's, it's always top ofmind here.
You all came at a pretty goodtime.
Usually this time of yearthere's some fire going on.
It might not be in Colorado, itmight be two states over.
Um, you know, in 2020, we, uh,we had fires that, you know, in
Denver that were 200 miles awaywhere you go outside and there'd
(12:29):
be ash on your car, um, becauseit blew, blows in and, and so
air quality is a massive issue.
In the mountains, um, foresttreatment is an issue in terms
of, you know, we have a lot ofmountain communities that, you
know, that we've got 100 yearsof fire suppression.
And so what that's doneecologically is created this
tapestry or this, this, thiscarpet of just forest
monoculture trees, a lot ofDouglas fir, essentially not to
(12:51):
get in the weeds here, butthere, there's a lot of fire
danger and climate change andclimate building and climate
resiliency, whether that'saccess to water or thinning
those forests or starting tomanage those forests in a way
that they were, you know,historically for tens of
thousands of years, um, managedwith, you know, out suppression.
So that's fires that werestarted by lightning or fires
(13:12):
that were started by FirstNations.
You know, we're on the ancestrallands of the Cheyenne, the Ute
and Arapaho right now, and theywould start fires.
Um, that was part of thelandscape and part of clearing
out meadows and bringing in, uh,species, game species and things
like that.
And so, you know, we've createdthis system here, um, where, you
know, we are susceptible to fireand it, it's, it's top of mind
(13:33):
for a lot of folks.
Um, And then you combine thatwith, you know, we've been in a
20 year drought until this pastyear.
We had the biggest snowpackwe've had in 20 years, and then
we had the wettest spring we'vehad.
Um, but other than that, youknow, we, we've been living
consistently with drought outhere.
And, and so.
We're constantly thinking aboutfire and thinking about
utilizing resources and havingthe emergency systems in place
(13:55):
and also just managing for fire.
Um, you know, a lot of, a lot ofcommunities, Boulder included,
they had a fire on New Year'sEve a couple of years ago.
It was crazy.
Um, you think about the middleof the winter, then you're going
to have this fire, but that'swhat we, we live with.
And so a lot of it's the landmanagement techniques.
So getting out here, grazinggrasslands, thinning forests so
that they, they, they look alittle bit more like they
historically did.
Um, having a little bit of a,um, more diverse forest system,
(14:18):
not just one set of trees thatare the same age.
Um, and so this is getting alittle bit into the weeds.
But yeah, it's always, um, topof mind for us.
I think you guys got a taste ofit earlier this year with the
fires that came down.
You saw the apocalyptic photosin New York City.
Yeah, um, that's every summerhere.
Not to that extent, but youknow, somewhere along that
spectrum.
And so that's part of living inthe Mountain West.
And yeah, it was eye openingwhen I came out here, because
(14:39):
you think about all the rain weget in the water, water, um, in
the Chesapeake Bay area.
It's just very different and,uh, it's going to continue to be
an issue as we have, you know,climate change and drier climate
and these, these crazy stormsand things like that.
Dana Rampolla (14:55):
Well, you just mentioned the Chesapeake Bay, so
let's take it back to Marylandfor a minute.
You were a land use attorney onthe Eastern Shore for a bit,
right?
Carmen Farmer (15:03):
Yeah.
Dana Rampolla (15:03):
And was that to help farmers and the produce
that's growing there or how didthat work?
Carmen Farmer (15:07):
It was a mix.
You know, I was, I was a youngattorney coming out of law
school, um, and worked for smallfirms like five attorneys, um, a
junior associates.
You kind of get handedeverything.
Dana Rampolla (15:16):
Okay.
Carmen Farmer (15:17):
It was, it was a great way to learn.
You know, yes, sometimes we wereworking with farmers that were,
and we were representing themand they were interested in
protecting their land.
Other times I'd have a landownerthat was.
You know, had this big secondhome property on a, you know,
river on the bay.
And they were like, Hey, I'dlike to build a 10, 000 square
foot house, you know, in thecritical area, as close to the
water as possible.
And I want to have a helipad soI can like get to my office in
(15:40):
Baltimore.
Uh, and so you, it was mixed,you know, you, you kind of take
whatever you can get.
And, um, You know, it was, itwas a fun learning experience,
and I did that for about fiveyears.
I'd started to interface withthe land trust community, and
that's what really spoke to me.
And, and that's where I, youknow, kind of made the conscious
decision, okay, like, I cut myteeth in private practice, um,
but I want to do work that's alittle bit more meaningful to
(16:02):
me.
And so then I, I, I, Went overto the Eastern Shore Land
Conservancy, which is anothernonprofit similar to Colorado
Open Lands, but focused on theeast of the six counties on the
eastern shore, um, that weworked with in the upper
watershed and, uh, loved it.
Um, it was like, okay, this is,this is what I need to do with,
with my life.
And there's also a little morework life balance there.
(16:23):
So you could go recreate, youknow, there it was, you know,
weekends looked a little bitmore like going out on the boat.
Um, now you're up in themountains.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So a little bit of a contrast.
But, um, just being outside.
Yeah.
Dana Rampolla (16:33):
Did, um, would you, is there anything in
particular about attending theUniversity of Maryland Carey
School of Law that, that youfeel really contributed to your
ability to grow in those areasand become involved?
Carmen Farmer (16:46):
I mean, absolutely.
The environmental law programthey have there, it's, it's
renowned and, um, you know,Professor, uh, Bob Percival was
one of my influential professorsthere.
And, um, having the access toenvironmental groups, uh, like
the Chesapeake Bay Foundationand just right in your backyard.
I mean, they're based inAnnapolis, you know, we're in
Baltimore.
Um, I think there's an alsointeresting intersection between
(17:08):
the, you know, the urbanplanning departments at the
University of Maryland CollegePark.
Um, where smart, the term smartgrowth or the concept came out
of, um, and so there were a lotof synergies there that I really
appreciated.
And then of course, DC is rightdown the road.
So in terms of policy and havingaccess to that, um, from a
federal standpoint, um, yeah, itwas, it was a wonderful place to
go to school and I got thereright when the new law school
(17:30):
was built.
So, you know, we, we were inthis state of the art building
that was just.
It's beautifully designed froman architectural standpoint, but
then also just an inspiringplace to learn.
Um, and, you know, I lived twoblocks away, you know, in the
shadow of Camden Yards.
And it was, it was fun, youknow, I was a kid that came from
rural Virginia and this was myfirst time living in a city.
I now live downtown Denver in alittle condo.
(17:51):
Um, so it was, it was in termsof me, like from a personal
growth perspective, but alsoprofessionally like it was, it
was a wonderful place to be.
Dana Rampolla (17:59):
That's great.
That's fantastic.
Charles Schelle (18:00):
I think you, you touched on this a little bit
earlier, but how is managingland farming and other resources
in Colorado different than inMaryland?
I mean, obviously geogeographically, it's very
different.
Carmen Farmer (18:12):
Yeah.
I think the biggest one is justthe water component.
You know, you can, you can growcorn in Maryland without.
Irrigating it, you know, youcan, you get enough rainfall or
for other crops like that.
And so out here, if you reallywant to have a productive
agricultural operation, you'vegot to have irrigation water.
And the irrigation water is insome cases more expensive than
the actual land.
(18:32):
And so, uh, That's part of,there's a whole history of the
riparian doctrine versus theprior appropriation doctrine out
here which is very differentthan what we do on the east
coast.
At the east coast you have acreek that runs through your
property you can access thatwater.
Here you've got to go file incourt to get a water right and
there's a prior appropriationdoctrine so first person to put
it, you know, if you have an1862 water right that's superior
(18:53):
to a 1950 water right and so ifthere's not enough water in the
river your junior water right,your 1950 water right or
whatever, you might not be ableto draw upon that water.
And so there's this complicatedsystem that we've done out here
in the West, in Colorado and inother states in the Mountain
West, um, where, you know,there's, there's a saying out
here that, that whiskey's fordrinking and water's for
fighting.
(19:14):
Um, and, uh, that's just becausethere were, you know, in the, in
the 1870s and stuff.
Dana Rampolla (19:19):
You seemed awfully happy this morning!
Carmen Farmer (19:21):
A little whisky in my cup?
No.
Um, uh, yeah.
I mean, there, there were a lotof fights over water and there
still are in court, um, becauseit's, it's a resource that we.
If over appropriated, we don'thave enough, but it unlocks
everything here.
I mean, we are in a highaltitude desert.
You're at a little over 5, 000feet here at Denver in
elevation.
They call it the Mile High Cityfor a reason.
(19:41):
It's hard to grow things outhere, but yet we have one of the
biggest rural economies in thecountry.
Weld County, just north of herea little bit, is a top 10
producing county in the entirecountry.
And so they are competing withplaces like Southern California,
where you have a much longergrowing season.
Um, and so you can grow a lotmore crops, and yet we're able
(20:02):
to export, I mean we export toChina, we export to, um, the EU,
I mean it's a major part of theeconomy out here.
Everybody talks about like theski economy, or like we have a
growing tech economy and otherthings like that, but, um, one
of our biggest, um, from a GDPperspective, um, economies out
here is the agriculturaleconomy, um, and so, you know,
(20:22):
contrasting that back east, it'sthe water.
You know, we wouldn't have thateconomy.
if we didn't have theinfrastructure in place to store
water, to divert water, theditches, and all those kind of
things out here, um, to put itto use.
I mean, we wouldn't have thishotel here without the water.
Right.
Dana Rampolla (20:36):
Do you do anything like Florida with gray
water?
Carmen Farmer (20:39):
We do.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's become a big thing here.
Water efficiencies,conservation.
Um, We're starting to seecommunities pay people to take,
you know, Kentucky bluegrass outand to do zero escaping and
things of that nature.
Um, It's just part of, part ofthe equation in terms of how we
can make that water go a littlebit farther.
We reuse water multiple times.
So there's a, there's a sayinghere that in Denver, when you
flush your toilet, it gets usedseven times before it hits the
(21:01):
border in Nebraska.
And that there's some truth tothat because it goes back into
the river system.
It gets picked up by anirrigator.
They put it on their farm.
Their crop might consume some ofit, but some of it gets, you
know, return flows back into theriver system or the aquifer, and
so it gets picked up multipletimes.
Charles Schelle (21:15):
It seems like, uh, water rights are almost as,
uh, great as, uh, rights for,gold and prospecting for mining.
Carmen Farmer (21:23):
Yeah, it's getting to that point.
Every once in a while you hearabout, um, you know, efforts to,
oh, we'll pipe water from theMississippi, or, well, yeah,
just because it gets to a pricepoint where it's so expensive to
acquire water rights becausethere's only so many of them and
it's a commodity, right?
Like...
Yeah.
Um, and, and honestly, I wish inlaw school, I'd have had access
to studying water law.
I mean, it was, it was, uh, kindof thrown into that deep end
(21:45):
when I came out here, because Ididn't have any experience in
that.
And I was like, Oh, wow, I needto pick this up quickly.
That and the mineraldevelopment.
Um, you know, that's somethingwe haven't touched upon here.
And a part of what we do istrying to figure out, because
there's a lot of oil and gasdevelopment out here.
Um, and, um, when, if you headnorth a little bit, you'll see.
Uh, wells everywhere and they'reconstantly still drilling and
there's a fair bit of frackinggoing on and we're trying to
figure out how we come to termswith that in the case of
(22:08):
protecting land and coexistingwith, with those natural
resource extraction activities.
Um, yeah, I mean this place wassettled because of gold and
silver mining.
Um, so there's always a historyof some sort of extraction,
whether it's that or oil and gasor timber, you know, and so
trying to figure out how allthose multiple different users.
(22:29):
Use the water and the, the, the,the land is, you know, it's an
interesting place to, to be.
Charles Schelle (22:34):
Absolutely.
Dana Rampolla (22:36):
Well, Charles alluded to in the beginning,
there's another, a whole notherside to you.
We, we know you're an outdoorsykind of person.
Um, I think it's reallyinteresting how the, the Rockies
and the plains intersect here.
Tell us how your life intersectswith.
with athletics and specificallyrugby.
Carmen Farmer (22:50):
Yeah, I, um, well, I grew up, uh, playing
sports, um, basketball, went toschool in undergrad and played
softball on a scholarship, um,and so it was always kind of
part of my life, um, and then Iwent to law school and it was
kind of like all focused onschool, um, and then after that
career, and so there's a 10 yearperiod where I didn't really
have any sort of athletic sportcomponents to life, um, and
(23:12):
then, um, And I turned 30, Iwent on a trip with actually a
couple of other University ofMaryland grads.
A friend of mine, BriannaStrapoli, she's listening, um,
she organized this trip toAfrica, to Tanzania, um, to
climb Kilimanjaro.
And um, while we were up there,it was kind of an epiphany.
This was also the time where Iwas transitioning from private
practice to, uh, the land usefield and non profit sector.
(23:33):
Um, I mentioned, I ran intosomeone that was on that trip
that was from Australia and theymentioned this rugby thing.
And I was like, what rugby?
I never really heard of rugby.
Yeah, yeah.
I mean, it's pretty undergroundhere.
Um, and so she was like, you'dprobably be pretty good at it.
And I was like, Oh, I'm kind oftrying to like, reincorporate
some level of sport in my life.
I'm 30.
Like, if I'm going to do that,this is the last chance I'll
probably have to do that.
So I got home, looked it up.
(23:54):
There's a club in Annapolis,Severn River Rugby, um, a
women's club and a men's club.
And I'm like, these adults dothis?
Like there's an adult league.
Um, and so I showed up to apractice and was like, Whoa,
this is, this is cool.
This is different.
Um, and, uh, it, it kind ofescalated into this whole thing.
Like I played a season withthem.
We went to nationals.
There's a national championshipevery year.
(24:15):
Uh, and there were USA scoutsthere and they approached me
afterwards after we had justactually lost a national
championship game.
And so, uh, you know, we're allhaving beers and you're just
sort of like trying to relax.
He's like, what do you thinkabout your rugby career?
I'm like, what, what's a rugbycareer?
Dana Rampolla (24:29):
I have a career.
I haven't had a long time tobuild.
Carmen Farmer (24:31):
Um, And so I started going to these USA
camps, um, rugby wasreintroduced into the Olympics
in 2016, um, and it was sort oflike, wow, this, this could be a
thing.
And, and, um, it ended up reallybecoming a thing.
My parents laughed.
They were like, this is a cutelittle hobby you have.
Like, is this like a midlifecrisis thing?
(24:52):
Um, and no, so I started goingto camps.
Uh, actually out here inColorado initially, um, and then
got really serious about it andhad to move to San Diego.
We have an Olympic trainingcenter outside of San Diego in
Chula Vista, and so two yearsbefore the Olympics, I, I talked
to, you know, I was working atthe Eastern Shore Land
Conservancy at the time.
I was like, Hey guys, I havethis opportunity.
Would you allow me to work parttime and sort of train out
there?
And so moved out there.
(25:13):
I'd get up at like five o'clockto take, you know, eight o'clock
a.
m.
meetings in, in Maryland.
Um, work in the morning, gotrain all day, come home, work
and, um, but it was one of thosethings I, it was, it was an
interesting moment in life whereyou sort of ask yourself, okay,
this is going to be reallytough, um, both professionally,
mentally, physically at thatstage in your life.
(25:33):
Um, but would you regret it?
And, and that was the point.
It was like, I had an outsidechance.
Like I was not like, I gotinvited out.
They were like, we're not goingto pay you yet.
We're not quite sure.
Um, and, uh, cause it isprofessional now.
Um, but.
I was, I was like, I'm going totake a chance.
I can do it for two years and itsomehow worked out.
I ended up getting picked in2016 to go to Rio, um, which was
(25:56):
a, another amazing experience.
Something I never would havethought would happen.
Um, and yeah, so there's some, Imean, we're seven years removed
from that now.
Um, but it's, it's kind ofinteresting to look back on
sometimes I'm like, did thatreally happen?
Like, yeah.
And I was an older athlete, Iwas 35 at the time.
Um, I remember distinctly in theathlete village one time I got
on the elevator cause you're,you know, we have a USA
(26:17):
building.
It's.
Hundreds of us that are there.
I mean, we're the largestcontingent that goes and, um,
you know, I got on the elevatorand these, these coaches were
like, what, what sport do youcoach?
Dana Rampolla (26:28):
Thanks, bud.
Carmen Farmer (26:28):
I was like, I'm actually here to compete.
Yeah.
The average age is like, yeah,there's a bunch of like 22 year
olds running around.
This is all they do.
They just train.
Dana Rampolla (26:35):
Right.
Carmen Farmer (26:36):
But it gave me this really interesting
perspective because, you know, Ihave my professional life and
it's such a mental game in termsof like.
Getting to that point, likecompeting every once every four
years, right?
Like, and, and just like the,you know, we had sports
psychologists and folks thathelped us think about that and
deal with the pressure and allthat stuff.
But I was kind of like, this isjust icing on top of the cake.
(26:56):
Like I, I had no expectation tobe here initially.
Like, um, and so it gave me thissort of nice little armor where
I was like, I don't care.
Like I've got my day job.
I'm going back to like, I lovewhat I do.
Like my passion is in my work.
This is another part anotherdimension of my life.
That's wonderful.
But so it was an interestingplace to be in.
Um, Yeah, so
Dana Rampolla (27:15):
yeah, that's awesome.
Thanks for sharing that.
That's really wonderful.
And rugby is such a great sport.
You learn so many things fromit.
Self resiliency and just beingstrong and enduring.
Carmen Farmer (27:25):
Absolutely.
And it's a very, uh, open,inclusive space.
Um, you know, and, and, and it'salways been that way come as you
are all kinds of body types.
Um, it doesn't, you know, whereyou're what your skill level is.
Um, how you identify, whatever.
I mean, we, we, we try to bepretty open and it's also, it's,
it's a worldwide sport.
It's not huge here.
It's growing.
But, um, you know, I've been allover the world, New Zealand, um,
(27:47):
England, Fiji, um, just to playand, and, you know, it's, it's a
worldwide community and it's,um, the camaraderie that, that
goes into it as well.
You know, we, we smash into eachother on the pitch and then
afterwards, you know, you hostthe other team, you, you, you do
a dinner.
You have drinks.
And so it was, you know, it wasvery different than some of the
other sports that I played.
(28:07):
Um, and, um, I really appreciatethat about it and have friends
all over the world because ofthat.
Dana Rampolla (28:12):
That's amazing.
Charles Schelle (28:13):
You mentioned that it's growing and I feel
like it's to the point now,especially in the last year or
so, where it's going beyond thatOlympic cycle and you're seeing
more of it, especially on theEast Coast, it's getting
televised more, which is, youknow, huge to get that exposure.
I was looking up, I was like,well, I wonder if there's any
teams around here.
It's like, well, you, you don'tonly have a team, you have a
(28:34):
women's team, the Colorado GrayWolves, who are three time
champions.
Carmen Farmer (28:38):
I played on that team.
Really?
Um.
Yeah, yeah, it is.
And it's I think the biggestthing that's starting to happen
is you're seeing varsityprograms in colleges and that
for the longest time it was a itwas a club sport.
And so you didn't havescholarship opportunities You
didn't have the funding that wasgoing into it like other
(28:59):
traditional NCAA sports and sothat's going to be the To a
point that really pivots it, Ithink, you know, like it's still
like we're, we're competitive onthe world stage, um, to a
certain extent in the Olympics.
We took fifth place.
We didn't medal, unfortunately,um, but it's, it's, it's going
to take, I think that investmentboth at the youth level, but
really in my mind at the NCAAlevel, because that legitimizes
(29:21):
it from a parent's perspective.
So like if, if I'm a 16-year-oldkid and I'm like, Hey mom, I
want to go to college and play asport, you know, they're
probably going to be moreinterested if it's a sport like
soccer or something where youcan get a scholarship as opposed
to a more obscure sport.
And so I think that'll really bethe trigger point where we'll
start to see it growtremendously, uh, in the next
few years.
Charles Schelle (29:39):
There is a DC team, Old Glory.
you can see back home inVirginia in Leesburg.
And, and I saw that, uh, someAustralian teams are actually
coming over to play some gamesin Las Vegas to get more
exposure too.
So, you know, they're, they'reall in to, to grow the sport.
And now we have the, you know.
Olympics returning to Paris, uh,in 2024 next year.
So are you going to try to keepup with Team USA or even think
(30:01):
about flying out there to watch?
Carmen Farmer (30:03):
Yeah, definitely keep up.
I still know a few of the folkson both the men's and the
women's teams and they both havequalified, which is amazing.
Um, I don't know if I'll make itout.
I went to New Zealand to watchthe Rugby World Cup last year,
which was quite an experiencebecause we also have a world,
you know, much like the soccerworld cup, the women's soccer
world cup that just went on.
Um, we do the same thing toowith rugby.
Um, we'll see, I don't know, youknow, um, it's, it's going to an
(30:24):
Olympics as a spectator ispretty special to you.
After we were finished playing,I got to stick around and just
go see different events.
And I mean, it's.
That's just, it's, it's such aninteresting event.
I mean, the, the, the world'seyes are literally on it and
it's not just a niche sport.
It's all the different sports,right?
Um, and so it's, it's pretty,pretty cool to see all these
(30:44):
different countries convene andeven as an athlete, you know, we
all have one dining hall sentlike center and seeing all the
different countries cometogether.
And, and we're all literallybreaking bread in the same room
and the different countriesthat, you know, sometimes from a
political perspective, we're notalways getting along, but from
an athlete's perspective, likewe connect on that.
Like, Oh, you went through thesame struggles I went through to
(31:05):
get here and you're a personjust like me.
And so there is somethingbeautiful.
There's a lot of things that arewrong with the Olympics in terms
of infrastructure and otherthings like that.
But, um, there are a lot ofreally nice, beautiful things
about it too, that I think, youknow, I, I get excited when it
comes around every four years.
Dana Rampolla (31:20):
Maybe we should put a few of the politicians in
a rugby game and then we'll seewhat they really got into.
Carmen Farmer (31:25):
Yeah.
Charles Schelle (31:27):
I was gonna say, it's probably nice, uh, to
have those experiences in the,in the dining hall because I'm
sure you, you might've beenawestruck.
I don't know if there was anyother Olympian athlete that
you're like, Oh, uh, MichaelPhelps.
Is that you?
Carmen Farmer (31:40):
We got a photo with Michael Phelps and I was
like, Hey, I live in Maryland.
He was like in what part Um,yeah, I mean, there's actually
before the opening ceremonies,there's a big get together.
It's almost like a, um, meet andgreet between all the athletes.
And so everyone's gettingselfies, like with Serena
Williams and, um, yeah, and we,we, we all, you know, we saw, I
saw Michael and I was like,guys, we got to go get a photo
(32:01):
with him.
Dana Rampolla (32:01):
Um, he's basically my next door neighbor.
Carmen Farmer (32:03):
Yeah, yeah, totally.
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
He's like, who's this girl?
Yeah.
Um, yeah, it, it, it is, I mean,it's, it's, it's pretty
otherworldly when you start tosee some of those other athletes
there and, um, It's, most of usare staying in the same
building.
Some of the teams, like the, thewomen's soccer team, they're
rock stars.
They're staying at some, like,five star resort.
(32:23):
We didn't run into them,actually, until we went to, we
got invited to the White Houseafterwards.
And so we ran into some of the,those players.
And even, you know, us as, asrugby players, we were like, Oh
my God, can I get a photo withyou?
I guess, totally starstruck.
But, um, yeah, it's, it's, it's,it's such an interesting
experience.
Dana Rampolla (32:38):
Well, Carmen, thanks for being here today,
taking time out of your busyschedule and just sharing some
information about yourtrajectory and how you got where
you are, but it's reallyexciting to hear the personal
part mixed in, so we appreciateyou sharing that, and thanks for
joining the pulse.
Carmen Farmer (32:53):
Yeah.
Thanks for having me.
Charles Schelle (32:54):
Thank you.
Jena Frick (33:01):
The UMB Pulse with Charles Chalet and Dana Rampolla
is a UMB Office ofCommunications and Public
Affairs production, edited byCharles Chalet, marketing by
Dana Rampolla.
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