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April 7, 2025 53 mins

In this emotionally rich and deeply honest episode of The UnBound Creative, Valerie and Mak explore one of the most universal experiences in creative life: failure. They dive into why fear of failure keeps so many creatives stuck, and offer mindset shifts, emotional tools, and gentle practices for moving through it.

They discuss:

  • How our brains are wired to avoid risk and how that shows up creatively
  • The real meaning behind failure and why it’s rarely final
  • What to do when success brings new fears
  • Why emotional processing like crying, journaling, and feeling deeply is part of a creative life
  • Practical ways to support yourself in moments of failure, including creating a “failure plan” and using music as a tool
  • The beauty of becoming through failure, and how it shapes who you are

This episode is a permission slip to begin. Whether you’ve failed and are struggling to get back up, or you’ve been too afraid to start at all, this conversation will help you reframe the fear and start walking forward—one imperfect, courageous step at a time.

Thanks for listening to The UnBound Creative!


If today’s episode resonated with you, share it with a friend or leave us a review, it helps more creatives discover the show.

💌 Connect with us on Instagram:
@valeriemckeehan & @thatmakguy (that’s Mak with a K!)


Keep creating bravely. We’re so glad you’re here.

Mark as Played
Transcript

Episode Transcript

Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Valerie (00:09):
All right, we're back for another episode.

Mak (00:11):
Here we go.

Valerie (00:12):
And we're doing it.
We've been talking aboutsharing more of these stories
that we don't share with anybody.

Mak (00:21):
That we've never shared with anybody.

Valerie (00:22):
We've never shared with anybody, but I think it's time.

Mak (00:26):
Okay, I'm ready to dive in then.

Valerie (00:30):
Welcome to the Unbound Creative Podcast.
We are your hosts.
My name is Valerie McKeon.
This is my husband, mac McKeon.
We have so enjoyed hanging outwith you over these.
What, how many episodes are wein?
this is number six this isnumber six awesome.
So if you have come alongthrough all of these six
episodes, we want to say thankyou.

(00:50):
If you are new to our podcast,hello welcome, we're so glad
you're here.
We want to empower allcreatives through this podcast
and our hope is that by sharingour story, sharing little
snippets of just our careers,things that we've gone through,
it will help empower you toembrace your own creative way of

(01:14):
being.
Our philosophy is that that'sthe way to be when we tap into
our creativity.
It helps you get unstuck whenyou are feeling lost.
It helps you be resilient andnimble in your life.
It helps you be able to getmessy and enjoy the process.
There is so much aboutcreativity that will directly

(01:38):
impact your life and make itbetter, and that's what we're
all about here.
And we love the arts too, andwe love beauty and all of the
things that in Nashville, wherewe live and where we record, and

(02:09):
we're finally out of the hole,so we're breathing a little bit
lighter.

Mak (02:13):
Yes, we're breathing a little bit lighter and feeling
really good, so excited torecord everything today.
It was a couple of days ofsleepless nights there and
especially with young kids, itwas a lot oh yeah, and you know
I want to say I'm going to givea quick shout out to nashville
severe weather.
It's like these five dudes whoare meteorology nerds.

(02:34):
They were like up all nightbroadcasting on youtube.
Look these guys up on instagram.
Even if you're not local,they're fantastic.
And the one night where we hadtornado warnings all night long
I had I stayed up all night tomake sure we didn't have to
shelter or anything because, ofcourse, these storms hit in the
middle of the night.
So these guys got me throughthe night.
They were so, so good.

(02:55):
So shout out to those guys.
They kept everybody calm, theyexplained, oh, there isn't going
to be a tornado here and thisand that, and they explained the
warnings and it was just sofantastic and I just love that
in this day and age you can havea passion for something and be
super creative about it and youhave an outlet in your house, in
your basement.

(03:16):
So what these guys are doing isvery on point for what we're
supporting on this podcast,because they love what they do,
they have creative energy aboutit and they broadcast, and the
broadcast in the middle of thenight.
The other night I saw onYouTube I had over 640,000 views
, and that's just massive.
So in this day and age, youreally can do anything you want

(03:38):
from anywhere, so take advantageof that.
We live in a great time to bealive, especially if you're
creative.

Valerie (03:44):
Yeah, it's our own blocks and our own stories.
They could be like oh no,there's the weather channel.
We don't need.
They don't need us.
Who needs another voice indoing this?
It's like there were how manystories that could have
prevented that, but I do.
I think it is so cool whenpeople do cool things, and we
are all about that.
We cool things, and we are allabout that.

(04:08):
We love, love, love that andyou are capable of doing really,
really cool things.
That's what we want to champion.

Mak (04:12):
And you don't need anybody's permission.
You can show up and do itreally bad at first, because
nobody starts out as an expert.
You think the first thing BobbyFlay made tasted great.
No, probably tasted terrible,but over time and you work on it
and you keep showing up, nomatter what life throws at you,
because you're passionate aboutit and you love it, you're going

(04:32):
to do well.
It's that simple, it really is.
It's almost so simple.
It's hard.

Valerie (04:36):
It is.
It's so simple.
It's hard Because we stand inour own way with our beautiful
brains that want to keep us safe.
So, speaking of wanting to keepus safe, if we think about what
are those kind of huge blocksin our way?
Why don't we do the thing?

(04:57):
Why don't we do the thing thatwe want to do?
Or we have the ideas.
If you're listening, you areprobably just a creative person
that is brimming with creativeideas, but if you're not taking
that from the idea stage toactually doing it, what is
standing in the way?

(05:17):
I would say one of the bigthings that people would say is
fear of failure.
There are many things andthey're all fear-based.
We don't want to look silly,and I think the fear of failure
can be broken out even in.
What does failing mean to you?
Does that mean a loss of moneyor a loss of time?

(05:39):
Or does that mean you have togo to people and say, hey, this
didn't work, I'm tryingsomething else now.
So you're afraid of what peopleare going to think.
But it can all have sort of adifferent wrapping paper on it,
but the thing that we'repackaging up here is the same,
which is it is this fear offailure, and we all say that.

(06:01):
We hear that, oh, fear offailure and everything.
But what we want to do today inthis episode, is help you
understand that going for it,even if you fail, is still
better than not going for it.

Mak (06:21):
And if you go for it, Well, not going for it is guaranteed
failure yes, that's true if younever begin, you failed yeah,
good point.

Valerie (06:33):
but also, if you do go for it, so many people let that
stop them, right, because we'reso afraid and we have it so
built up in our head, it becomesthe monster under the bed.
We can't even look under therebecause it's too scary.
So what do we do?
We don't even try, we don'teven start.
It is this is that voice that wetalk about on the podcast many

(06:55):
times.
That's saying to you sit backdown, sit back down, stay safe,
stay safe.
And your brain knows what tothrow up at you.
That's going to get you to sitback down.
So it will wave the flag ofwhatever particular style of
failure it is for you in orderto get you to stop, because it

(07:16):
wants you to stay safe, which,to your brain, safe equals the
same, safe equals the same.
So for many people, this ideaof failing just becomes this
monster hidden under the bed.
We're too afraid to even look.
So then we don't do anything,and you're right, that's the
ultimate failure.

(07:36):
That's the ultimate failure.
So what happens when you do try, or you do the thing, or you
take a risk and you actually dofail?
What do you do in that case?
What we want to do here islet's look under the bed.
What if that happens?

Mak (07:57):
Well, because the chances are you are going to fail.
I mean, I can't think of aninstance in my brain where
somebody had an idea and it wasinstantly successful.
I mean even the businesses andthe people who have gone on and
done big things and they've doneit rather quickly.
They had several points, evenif it was a month from beginning

(08:18):
to going viral.
They had moments of failure inthe middle.
So that's the point.
It's like if you're gonna start, be prepared to fail.
You're going to fail.
There is no human being capableof starting without having some
, some kind of failure.
It's like if you're playingtennis, you're gonna, you're
gonna drop a set.

(08:39):
I'm sorry, you're just, it'sjust gonna happen.

Valerie (08:41):
So even down to starting anything, even on
smaller levels.
If you're learning how to paint, if you're learning how to
dance, if you're learning how todo anything, you are going to
fail at first.
You're not going to come outthe gate trying to paint a
painting and it's going to looklike Monet right off the bat.
That's right.
It's not going to happen.
So it is like we can talk aboutalmost micro failures.

(09:04):
I think the micro failuresactually can set us up for the
bigger failures too.
But all realms of failure, fromthe big to the small, it is all
going to be part of walkingthis creative path, so why not
normalize it?

Mak (09:22):
Why can't we?

Valerie (09:22):
just talk about it like it's normal.

Mak (09:24):
The idea is you have to be comfortable with failing.
You have to be comfortable withit because it's actually
failing is a superpower and Iknow so many people who are in
positions to hire people andthey would take someone who has
failed multiple times but hasgotten up over, someone who has
quote unquote never failed.

(09:46):
Or never done anything likenever done anything or never
done anything, you know, even ifthey're, if they have all the
education in the world but theyhaven't done anything yet.
But but there's a.
There's a person who has failedthree or four, five, six, seven
times in their life, butthey're still going and they're.
They'll take that personbecause the experience of the
failure builds a lot of things.
First of all, it buildscharacter, which is of the

(10:09):
utmost importance, but secondly,it builds what failure really
does, and really I hate the wordfailure because it implies that
you failed.
Well it implies completeness,Correct.
But what happens when you quote, unquote, fail, is you just
learn another lesson?
You learn that actually thatfailure goes into your arsenal.

(10:32):
And when that goes into yourarsenal, in the moment of the
failure and sometimes thatmoment can be a single moment or
it can be months and maybe evena year or more but in that
moment you are actually beingdownloaded a tremendous amount

(10:53):
of just priceless information,priceless experience, priceless
knowledge that you will carryforward with you into the future
a much wiser, stronger, moreprepared person.
So if you learn to look atfailure as a way of, it's almost

(11:16):
like if you learn to embrace itand get excited about it and
kind of reframe the way it looks.
Sure, in the moment, externallythere could be loss of all
kinds, but inside, that lossinstantly becomes a positive.
It instantly charges you withsomething that you can't get.

(11:38):
Otherwise, you cannot be taughtfailure.
There is not a single person inlife who can teach you failure.
They can teach you how to dealwith it.
They can teach you what to doon the other side, but the
feeling of it, going through it,planning, doing everything and
it not working, that's onlysomething we as individuals can
do for ourselves.

(11:58):
And until you've done it andmaybe done it a handful of times
can you come out and learn toreally, really embrace it and
see it as something positive.
And all the greats, fromRichard Branson to Steve Jobs
and all these people Oprah.
They understand and thrive infailure and they have learned

(12:22):
that okay, if it didn't work,you just keep going.
What's the next thing?
What's the next thing?
I'm going to keep going Becausethey learned that that's just
part of what makes you great.

Valerie (12:33):
Failure is quintessentially creative.
Let's not make it the boogeymananymore, because it is the
process.
It's the process, it is, it'spart of it.
It is so inherently tied upinto what it means to be
creative and live a creativelife.

(12:55):
Because the essence ofcreativity you're thinking
differently, you're tryingthings that you may not normally
try.
You're trying things in adifferent way.
You're trying things thathaven't been done try.
You're trying things in adifferent way.
You're trying things thathaven't been done before.
You are taking the risks, youare silencing that part of your
brain that's trying to get youto stay safe and you're saying,
no, I'm going to do this, I'mgoing to try this.

(13:16):
And yes, in doing that, you areputting yourself in the path of
failures, in the path offailures of things not working,
of experimentation and ofcuriosity.
So if that's the case, if thisis just so utterly tied to this
type of lifestyle, then it makessense that we would just

(13:40):
embrace it and give ourselvesthe tools to be able to take
those next steps, so that itdoesn't put you, put you back so
far beethoven wrote what?

Mak (13:50):
how many songs like a, like a ridiculous?

Valerie (13:52):
number.
I used to know the number Iknow of this.

Mak (13:54):
It's somewhere between a thousand and six thousand.

Valerie (13:56):
Okay, okay but you'll get the point.

Mak (14:00):
The point is he's probably I mean arguably melodically the
most famous musician of all time.
I mean arguably the most famous, and Beethoven's Fifth is
probably the most recognizabletune of all time.

Valerie (14:20):
I think you're just born now, knowing those few
notes.

Mak (14:23):
I mean, mozart has a couple like Mozart wroteart wrote.
Well, it wasn't twinkle,twinkle little star, but like he
wrote that melody um, I forgetwhat it was, but anyway.
So those two are pretty prettylike neck and neck there, okay,
but arguably most famous, uh, asongwriter of all time.
Let's call him a songwriter,for for sake of argument, do you

(14:47):
know how much he had to writeto get the like?
Okay, classical music nerdswill know 20, easily, 20
beethoven pieces.
But if you're, if you knownothing about classical music,
you maybe know three or four ofhis most famous melodies.
He had to write thousands andthousands, and that's just the

(15:11):
stuff we know about.
Imagine how many more things hewrote that like you and me.
So we're like this is terrible,I'm throwing this in the
garbage.
Now imagine if he had put outhis first couple pieces and
nobody received them and he saidforget it, I'm done, I failed.
This is embarrassing, I hate mylife, it's over, goodbye.

(15:33):
It would.
Huh, we wouldn't have it, andit was.
I think John Grisham is theother example I like to use.
His first book totally flopped,and what did he do?
He said, okay, well, it flopped, so I'm gonna go write the next
book.
He his mindset was not it'sover, his mindset was not okay.
This is embarrassing.
Which it was his mindset was.

(15:54):
I feel in my heart that I am anauthor, so I'm gonna go write
the next one.
And he said he was gonna keepwriting until he got a hit.
You know what's interesting?
It's like that's, but that's soeasy because he loved to write.
Beethoven loved to write.

Valerie (16:08):
You know what's interesting about it, though we
think that success, whatever weperceive to be success- is going
to thank you, this is going tobe a good point.

Mak (16:17):
I already know the point before it's come out of your
mouth.
Go ahead.

Valerie (16:25):
Maybe I'll surprise you .
We think that success is goingto inoculate us from feeling a
sting of failure, and it doesn't.

Mak (16:35):
Oh, that's not the point I thought you were going to make,
but that's even better than theone I thought you were going to
make.

Valerie (16:39):
We think that, ok, if I was successful, if everybody
recognized this is so good, or Itried to start a business and
it was a massive success and Isold out on the first day, and
we tend to think that thatsuccess is somehow going to like
whoop, we have a superpower now.
We had success, therefore I amnow immune to failing forever.

(17:02):
No, no no way this point offailing and learning how to fail
, which maybe that's what weshould call this episode.
Learning how to fail is goingto serve you in the whole
entirety of your creativejourney, because even the people
who have had massive success,the pressure of the follow-up is

(17:24):
almost even scarier the idea offailing once you had success
and then falling.
It becomes even this other typeof a beast.
But it's still all failure andit's still all fear.

Mak (17:38):
I'm actually gonna disagree with you for a second and I'm
gonna say the follow-up isalways scarier.

Valerie (17:45):
Yeah.

Mak (17:45):
I get that.
I I'm not like the underdoganymore.
No, listen when you're at thetop, okay, and um, I'm gonna.
This isn't even a humble brag,I'm gonna.
Brag val has been the top inthe world at something she's
done at least one time in herlife, and I have two.
I had, I had a success where Iwas number one in the world.

Valerie (18:03):
What I did you said this isn't no that's definitely.

Mak (18:06):
that's just a straight up brag, but it's from that place
that I'm coming to you andsaying once you're there, it's
terrifying and it's notsomething you expect.
But when people see yoursuccess, two things happen.
You inspire people, which isthe good thing, and they, like,
want to do what you're doing,and they get excited and

(18:27):
fulfilled and they start going.
And number two, people want totake you down, and so they come
after you.
And then you're also beingscrutinized to a degree and you
just feel like, oh no, what am Igoing to do?
I've got to have the follow-upbe as good as the first thing.

(18:52):
The trick is not letting any ofthat get to you, and that leads
to another topic which weshould do on another podcast,
and that is not fear of failure,but fear of success, because
the things I just said soundpretty scary.

Valerie (19:05):
So say more about the people that want to take you
down.
Like are you thinking?
Are you talking more likecompetitive sense?
Yes, competitively, like inbusiness, like competitors pop
up, Like if you have somethingthat is working then people are
going to pop up.

Mak (19:20):
Which we did experience a lot of that.
Both of us have experiencedthat.

Valerie (19:23):
With just products that we have invented and then all
of a sudden, there was all kindsof infringement.
And well, you're one of themost infringed artists in the
world.

Mak (19:32):
People don't like understand that, but like I'm
telling you right now there, valhas hundreds of infringement
things going on in her liferight now, from stuff she even
did 10 years ago.
That's a whole other and that'sa whole nother podcast but my.
But my point is when, whenyou're.

Valerie (19:51):
That's why, like the, the fear of of success is also
very real well, I think whatwe're trying to say, I don't
want to, I don't want to rabbittrail too much, but that's,
that's a part of it, I thinkwhat we're trying to say in this
is we can have these views ofit's like a total grass is
greener kind of a thing, whereyou're like that person is
successful and look at what theyhave and if only, if only I had

(20:15):
this, then you play the if thengame.
Right, if I had this, then Iwould feel all these things, or
if I had this level of success,then my life would be so much
better.
And what we're trying to say issuccess often brings more
points of problem solving andthings that come up.

Mak (20:35):
Yeah, it does, and I'll admit to you right now the thing
that I did, that I was like thebest in the world at.
I have been very trepidatiousgetting back into that because I
feel like I not only have toreach what I did before, I have
to do better but that's ablocker that's a blocker, I'm

(20:57):
afraid, of judgment from peersfrom 20 years ago.

Valerie (21:04):
See, this podcast is therapy.
This is therapy because we haveit too, is what we're saying,
and that's exactly the point.

Mak (21:11):
So listen, you can be listening right now and my not
so humble brag came out.
But what I'm trying to pointout is, even though I've had
wild success, I still have thesame fear that you do.
It didn't immunize us from doingthings Correct, and so every
time I step foot back into thatworld, I feel a sense of

(21:32):
pressure to perform at a certainlevel, when, in turn, I should
just perform as me.
I should just do what I do best, and that's be myself, yeah,
and but I'm, I'm right there,along with everybody else.
It's it that doesn't make it goaway.
The secret is, I still do, youstill.

(21:56):
I'm still in that world, Istill do it, yeah, I still do it
, and isn't that.

Valerie (22:01):
That is the.
That is.
The whole point of all of thisis that if you're waiting for a
point for the fear to go awayagain the if then game if you're
playing the if then game andsaying at this point I'm gonna
start because I won't be afraid,because I'm gonna have done all
this stuff, we're telling youright now you won't.

(22:22):
It's not gonna happen.
That way, the fear doesn't goaway.
The fear just comes along forthe ride.
Because what ends up happeningis the more you step out in your
creativity, the more you startdoing the thing and taking those
steps and silencing the brainto try to keep you stuck so that
you can move forward.

(22:43):
The more you do it, the easierit becomes to just say, all
right, fear like, pack your bags.
Here we go again.

Mak (22:52):
You know, we just watched Friday night with Vienna.
It's movie night, movie pizzanight in our house and we
watched Beauty and the Beast,the live action version.
And one of my favorite momentsin that whole movie is right
toward the beginning, whenMaurice and Belle are talking

(23:12):
and Maurice and Belle says tellme another thing about mom.
And Maurice says she wasfearless.
And I've always loved the ideaof fearlessness because to me,
fearless when you're fearless,it doesn't mean you lack fear,
that's primal.
I don't think it doesn't meanyou lack fear.

Valerie (23:34):
That's primal.
I don't think any of us canjust completely lack fear.

Mak (23:37):
No, we would be dead if we didn't have that mechanism.
To me, being fearless is beingafraid and doing it anyway,
that's fearless.

Valerie (23:43):
See, I would call that courage.

Mak (23:45):
No well, I see, I often think that fearless and courage
are sort of kissing cousins,because I mean we could get into
semantics here and call in anEnglish professor, but no one
wants to talk to an Englishprofessor.
So what we're going to do is, Ithink that there.
I think that that to me is whatthat means it's like, because

(24:07):
everyone, even the mostsuccessful people in the world I
don't care who they aresomewhere deep down they have a
fear of something, but whatthey've learned to do is embrace
it and overcome it and growfrom it.

Valerie (24:19):
It's almost like making friends with your fear, and the
more that you still make a moveanyway, even if the move was a
failure, it's almost distillingthat into something that is
proof that you still survived,that you still are doing it,
You're getting back up andthere's a real level of trust I
think that you build withyourself in that where you

(24:41):
stepped out in your fear and youdid it anyway.
Just the fact that you did it.
And it's not, I would say, 90%of the time it's not going to go
even the way you expect it togo, whether it was a failure.
But sometimes it's justsurprising.
And what if we looked at itthat way, where it's like oh,
that's interesting.
Maybe we don't even label it asgood or bad.

(25:03):
I think sometimes part of theproblem is that we're holding on
so tightly to how somethingneeds to go or an outcome that
if it's not that exact outcome,there still could be something
really good that's in theprocess.
But because it didn't hit thatmark that we said or we said
this is good and this is bad.
I see people doing that all thetime with their businesses and

(25:24):
with launches, where they'relike this is the number and then
anything under that.
They're so upset, but yet lookat the people they still touched
.
There was still good there, butit really puts our blinders up,
then, to what is good and whatis going to help us move forward
here.

Mak (25:44):
And in an instance like that, when you're talking about
launches too, there's so much tobe learned.
So, if you were trying to hit anumber and you didn't hit it,
rather than being angry becausewe've seen people like then lash
out on social media andactually attack their customers
for not buying more which isalways the worst decision but

(26:05):
what could you have learned?
So, if that felt like a failure, because that's an
embarrassment, you didn't hitthe numbers you wanted.
What did you learn about thelaunch?
What did you learn about yourlanguage?
What did you learn about yourcustomers?
What did you learn about theway you like?
There are so many things youcan learn from in that moment.
And take that anger orfrustration or embarrassment and

(26:26):
use it for good, because thenext time you launch which you
could do the next week you coulddo better.

Valerie (26:34):
But there's always questioning.
I'm constantly questioning.
I love that.
I think it's part of being on acreative journey or an
entrepreneurial journey.
There's so much self-reflectionthat needs to come with that
and I feel like just askingyourself okay, so this didn't go
very well.
Well, maybe ask those questions.
Did you love what you created?

(26:54):
Were you creating just for thepurpose of what you thought
everybody else was going to like?
I feel like a failure.
It opens up the door to sometough conversations with
yourself because maybe youdidn't actually want that, maybe
you weren't into it that much.
I know that's been the case forme sometimes, where it's really

(27:17):
caused me to pause and say do Ihave the right team in place?
Am I really in my own alignment?
Because something here isblocked, something here is being
resistant, and it always givesus an opportunity to seek out
our own alignment again becausewe can say all right, what is

(27:39):
this path forward?
And there's also something thatthere's something to be said
about dusting yourself off andholding yourself in gentleness
and learning what you need inthose moments and almost taking
care of yourself like you wouldtake care of a sick child.
You know, okay, I see you.
You had this huge disappointment.

(28:00):
You're feeling all the feelings.
You're feeling embarrassed oryou're just feeling disappointed
and okay, it's like how wouldyou treat yourself if you were a
sick child?
In that moment and cultivate somuch gentleness with yourself
to nurture yourself and nourishyourself?
And just be like, okay, we'regonna cry, we're gonna let this
be a moment and and then we'regonna rise and I think that's a

(28:24):
huge part of it in getting toknow yourself, treating yourself
with a certain amount ofgentleness and giving yourself
what you need to move forward.
But then, once you have sort ofthat initial shock underway,
then you can start asking somequestions, and they might be

(28:46):
hard questions and you might besaying things like is this
aligned?
Should I really be going inthis direction?
But it gives you that abilityto change course, to try
something different.
You can make it all play too.
Just be like, okay, well, maybethis time I'm going to try this
different method.

(29:06):
And if we look at it like we'reputting pieces of a puzzle
together, you just haven't maybecracked that puzzle yet, but
there's always opportunity toseek out that next puzzle piece,
especially when you're doing itin a way of alignment.

Mak (29:21):
Yeah, I mean that's, that's a hundred percent correct.
I mean you just all you want todo is is, I think well, first
of all, I think it's a hardsometimes.
It's difficult to have a hardconversation with yourself and
really look at those.

Valerie (29:33):
It's always difficult to have a hard conversation with
yourself, but journaling helpswith that.
Yes, it's, but that ismeditation see, this is the
thing.
This is another thing, though.
We are so adverse to emotion,just as a society.
This is another societal thingthat we are adverse to it.

(29:53):
And if you think about when yousee somebody crying, for
example, our first inclinationis like what's wrong?
What's wrong?
Feel better.
It actually makes usuncomfortable if somebody is
having a display of emotion, thesame thing with ourselves.
There are several times whereI'll maybe just it might be

(30:14):
something so small and I justfeel a welling up and I want to
cry.
And then I'm saying what iswrong with you?
Stop that, like, get ittogether.
But no, that emotion is energyin motion that needs to come out
and that is healthy and healing.
And just a side note, I wasreading about crying and our
tears, and there are actually.

(30:34):
If they look at tears under amicroscope, there are stress
hormones present in the tears.
They are literally washing thestress hormones out of our body.
When we say, like a goodcleansing cry, it is true, which
is so neat, like we are builtand made to emote and to show

(30:57):
feelings and emotions and all ofthese things, but what we tend
to do, we block that off and wesay nope, don't want to go there
, don't want to feel that way.
So then we turn to what Doomscrolling, netflix numbing,
because we don't want to feelthat way.
So then we turn to what Doomscrolling, netflix numbing,
because we don't want to feelthe feeling.
But the problem is, when youdon't feel the feeling, when you
don't have the hardconversation with yourself, that

(31:18):
stuff doesn't go away.
It's not like the feeling islike, oh okay, nevermind, and it
turns around.
No, it just gets stuffed downand often it will come back with
a vengeance and it will knocklouder because it wants to get
out.
It is energy, it is energy inmotion.
So if you want to cry, if youfeel those welling up this is

(31:40):
part of why everybody knows bynow that I'm obsessed with Mr
Rogers and that is why Iresonate so deeply in part with
what he says about there's nobad feeling.
Feelings are just feelings.
It's okay.
We are allowed to experienceall gamut of human emotion.
Guess why?
Because we're human and we'remade to have that gamut of

(32:03):
emotion so completely.
It is hard to have brutalhonesty with yourself.
It is hard to sit in thoseemotions, not because we're
trying to wallow, but becausewe're trying to honor what is
coming up and let it movethrough.
But when we do and all of thedifferent ways we can do that,

(32:26):
like journaling and just gettingto that place of honesty,
instead of stuffing it away.
Then we actually make progress,then we actually clear out
space and stagnancy and we'reable to be clearer.

Mak (32:43):
And your tears too.
They're also flushing outmicroplastics.
So you can get microplasticsout and and no, I'm just making
it's very healthy for you to cry.
But um, no, I mean, val's rightand that's the thing.
Like we, we're all.
I think we've all sort of beentaught forever don't show your

(33:06):
emotion and you know what peoplesay.

Valerie (33:09):
That's a man thing, but I think it's both.
It's for men and women?

Mak (33:13):
Yeah, I think it's.
I definitely think it's both.
I mean, as a man, I wasdefinitely directed to never
have any kind of emotionwhatsoever, any kind of weak
emotion.
I was allowed to be strong, butnever, rarely, was I allowed to
be sensitive as a man oranything like that, and so that
takes that, takes some that.
That that's that's a difficultthing to overcome, because we do

(33:35):
have feelings.
Men are human, women are human,and so what Val is saying here
is so right when you have asense of failure, feel it, feel
it, get it out.
Whatever, whatever emotionyou're feeling, get it out, feel
it.
I have a playlist literally onmy Apple Music.
That is when I'm feeling sadand deep and I just need to get

(34:00):
it out, and if I need to cry orwhatever, I put this playlist on
because it moves me through theemotion a lot faster.
But it's not because I'm tryingto avoid it, it just helps me
feel.
It literally is a playlist offour or five songs that just
help me feel that deep part ofmyself that are now reserved for
those moments.

Valerie (34:19):
I really love this conversation because I think
that you can have so manyconversations about failure that
turn into this like toughen upand get right back up and dust
yourself off.
And there is that element ofgetting back up, but I think,
truly recognizing the emotionpart of it and the nervous

(34:39):
system part of it, withourselves, that we need to care
for ourselves and hold ourselvesin that space.
And this is also part of whatwe were saying about having the
fear.
We're feeling it but we'reconsciously doing it anyway.
And I think a lot of this istaking you from a place where
maybe your subconscious is sortof just running a program,

(35:02):
because that's what oursubconscious does, does, and we
aren't even recognizing what ishappening.
So much of what we do it may beeven hidden fears and things
that we don't even know, butthey're kind of running our
lives, which is a whole othertangent.
We could go on.
So I think, just having theawareness element of it and

(35:23):
being able to name it oh, I'mfeeling fear, oh, I'm feeling
self-conscious, I'm feeling avulnerability hangover you can
then hold yourself in thosespaces and do what you need in a
healthy way to move through,because it's the numbing
behaviors, trying to avoid thosethings that end up becoming the

(35:44):
very destructive things that wehear about destructive things
that we hear about.

Mak (35:51):
So you know what, what is some practicality that we can,
we can bring into this, becausepeople like some people like
practicality.
So when you are, when you so,if there's something just deep
within you right now that youare dying to do, to get out, to
create, to, to, you know, tobuild a business, paint a
picture, write a song, call afriend, whatever, it is
something that's holding youback because you're afraid of

(36:12):
how it's going to be perceived,or you're afraid you're not
going to be able to do it, oryou're afraid that it's not
going to go well, or it's goingto make your life more
complicated or whatever.
What is that thing and what isa small step you can take to get
started on that thing?
Because to me, that is 99% ofthe battle is recognizing I am

(36:39):
afraid of this and understandingwhy, where the fear is coming
from, and feeling that for aminute and then going.
But I'm going to be okay,because how many people have
gone before you who took majorsteps and were terrified to do

(37:00):
it, but now we have amazingthings because they were capable
of being so vulnerable.
So what is the first step thatyou can take this week towards
something that you've beenafraid to try.
And then part two of this is ifit doesn't work out the way you

(37:21):
think, how can that be okay?
How can you examine that andunderstand that it will be okay?
How can that make you feel?

Valerie (37:37):
It's almost like having a failure plan, because what
we've established is that it'sinevitable.
Why should we be talking aboutit?
It's something so big.
Let's just level set and say Ifailed, mac has failed.
We failed many times, do you?

Mak (37:53):
want to know something.
One of the things I like totell people when they have
something to sell, their numberone thing is fear of rejection,
which is a sense of failure.
They failed at making a sale.
And what I like to tell peopleis if you knew that you were
going to get the sale on the25th phone call, how quickly
would you get through the first24 phone calls?

(38:14):
You'd snap through those first24 phone calls and you wouldn't
care that you got rejectedbecause you knew on the 25th you
were going to get the sale.
This is a very similar concept.
If you knew that on the 10thtime you attempted to do what
you want to do, you were goingto succeed, how quickly would
you want to try to burn throughthe failures?
Yeah, you would be anxious toget through them.

(38:36):
You would be like, okay,failure number one, great Done,
let's get on to failure numbertwo Okay done, let's get on to
failure number three.
That's how you have to playthis game, because if you keep
trying, you will make it happen.
The woman who started canva shewas told no by a hundred
investment firms and banks andit's a billion dollar company

(38:57):
now.

Valerie (38:58):
She failed a hundred times and now she's got one of
the most successful softwaretools in existence and that's
not even talking about all ofthe people who their mistakes
turned into a thing we haven'teven gotten into that about how
you could be trying to do onething and then you realize, oh

(39:21):
well, this is failing or thisisn't working.
And then it's part of that selfevaluation and you're like, oh,
but what if I try this?
And you're going toward thatease and going toward that
alignment, and then you end upsomewhere that you didn't even
imagine.
We hear that story all the timetoo.
So, as part of your kind offailure plan, what are some of

(39:42):
those stories that you can evenremind yourself of?
Maybe even as another practicalthing, actually have a Google
Doc on your computer or a noteon your phone that's like a read
this whenever you feel likestopping or you're letting the
fear stop you, or if you haveexperienced that failure.

(40:02):
It's almost part of your sickplan.
If you're kind of babyingyourself.
When you've gone through thesethings that are really hard to
go through, it's hard to fail.
This is why people, a lot ofpeople, don't do anything.
They don't do it because it'shard to do that.
But you are choosing the pathof creativity and the path that

(40:24):
is ultimately fulfilling.
So maybe as part of your plan,you have some of these stories
in there to go back and listento, some quotes, some things
that just remind you that thisis normal, because something
else our brains do.
It makes us feel like we'realone, that we're the only one.

Mak (40:41):
there's something wrong with us, but it's so universal
usually the difference betweensomebody who succeeds and
somebody who fails is that theperson who succeeded took
continuous action.
That's it.
They might not even be nearlyas talented as the person who
failed.
The person who failed could be10 times as talented.

(41:02):
The difference is the personwho took action over and over
again and got over this idea ofbeing afraid of failure Maybe
they felt their feelings, theylearned from them and they got
up and they did it again.
That's literally it.
It is the action of moving, andso I'm going to bring it up
again the quote from the Office.

(41:25):
And Wayne Gretzky, michael Scott, you'd miss 100% of the shots
you don't take.
Wayne Gretzky, michael Scott,you'd miss 100% of the shots you
don't take.
Wayne Gretzky, michael shot,michael Scott, it that is.
There is nothing more true thanthat, and, and you know what
you know, dealing with failureand taking action when it is
scary because you have thesefears, is hard, but you know

(41:45):
what else is hard sitting aroundand not doing what makes you
feel creatively lit up.

Valerie (41:52):
Not being self-actualized and feeling
alive and whole.

Mak (41:56):
That's hard too, and so they're both hard.
So you got to pick your hard.
Which hard would you?
At the end of each of thosehard paths, what outcome exists
that you would like to relish in?
And that's literally it.

(42:18):
And it's like we said at thebeginning of this thing it's so
easy.
It's hard Because you'resitting there and you're saying
it can't be as simple as takingaction.
Okay, will you run intoproblems?
Yes, will you have to solvethings?
Will things come up you didn'tthink of?
Will there be barriers?
Will there be?
Yes, of course that's witheverything in life.
It's the same thing like okay,if you're baking a cake, there's

(42:40):
going to be 100 decisions youneed to make, and you could go
wrong in so many different ways.
But when you do it and you doit and you do it, then you get a
really good cake.

Valerie (42:50):
But guess what?
Here's where the magic is.
It is in the becoming, it is intaking those steps.
That's the part that the younow sitting here can't fathom or
it's hard to fathom, I shouldsay, because it's the you now.
But the greatest gift as Maxsaid earlier, that nobody can

(43:12):
teach you.
No book is going to teach you,a podcast isn't going to teach
you is what that actually feelslike in your own self and in
your own body.
When you fail, when you take theaction that didn't work, and
then you have to think ofsomething else, and then you
have to pivot.
Or you took the action thatdidn't go as you thought it
would, so then you need toproblem solve and you need to
come up with a solution.

(43:32):
Or something happened evenbetter than you thought that it
would, but that came with a lotof problems, and then you have
to have a solution for that.
Maybe you oversold, or maybeyou, you did something
successful that actually ends upwith a number of problems.
That happens too, but it is inthe becoming.
You are going to become theperson who then solved that

(43:56):
problem.
You're going to become theperson who failed and then got
themselves back up and learnedsomething and did something else
, that person, that evolution ofyou, is the juice, is the magic
, because it's who you're goingto become.
You're going to show yourselfwhat you're made of.
You're going to show yourselfwhat you're capable of, and

(44:18):
there are no one hits or justinstant successes where that
happens.
And if it was possible to wave amagic wand and you would go
from point A to point B, exactlyto plan, exactly, without a
hitch.
You got right to the resultthat you wanted to, and there
was a way to like rub thegenie's lamp and get that to

(44:39):
happen, it would be such adisservice and you would only
need to go through the processof becoming and learn those
lessons later.
Because, as we we said, there'snot an actual destination of
success.
A creative life is going to beone of this push, pull of fail,
success, try, try again.
That's going to be the natureof it.

(45:00):
So those lessons will need tobe learned eventually anyway.
So you might as well letyourself become in the process,
and who you're going to becomeis the real magic of it all.

Mak (45:13):
And let me also say this when you have failed and you
have learned and you have takenthat knowledge and applied it
towards your next thing and itmight even be the next step like
the first step didn't work theway you want it, so you got to
go back to the drawing board,start over.
The goal might still be thesame, but you go, the first step
didn't work the way you want it, so you got to go back to the
drawing board and start over.
The goal might still be thesame, but you go that path

(45:35):
didn't work.
Okay, let's, let's try thispath, or it could be a whole new
thing.
When you do finally succeed,and it's after a series of
failures, the feeling of thatsuccess is so much sweeter
because you really earned it.
You earned it.
And what you'll do is you'lllook back and it won't even be

(45:58):
about ah, I got where I am.
You will look back on thejourney with a big grin on your
face.
I can tell you this fromexperience.

Valerie (46:06):
You'll be so proud of yourself.

Mak (46:08):
You will look back and you will feel so good and what
you'll want to do is you'll wantto start sharing it with other
people.
You'll want to say, okay, letme help you do this now because
it feels so good.
Let me let you in on a secret.
That's what val and I are doing.
That's why we have this podcast, because we're like you.

(46:28):
You get to a place where youjust want other people to
experience it and understand itand get it, and then it just
feels so good and you just wantto start giving it away.
You want to give away.
You want everybody else to feelthat feeling, and so the
journey becomes worth it.
Whether that journey is sixmonths or 60 years, it's worth
it.
The juice is worth the squeeze,yeah.

Valerie (46:52):
So I started this whole thing saying that we were going
to share, that we were going toshare some of our own personal
stories and vulnerable storiesabout failure Spoiler.
There are many, so we had a fewto choose from and we didn't
actually end up talking aboutthe story that we plan to talk
about.

(47:12):
So I think, we know what ournext episode is going to be this
was almost like a part one leadup.
But that is the thing we want toshare these stories that we've
never shared with anybody.
Because you don't really go onyour Instagram one day randomly
and be like, hey, let me tellyou about the most painful thing
that happened to me, randomly,you know.

(47:33):
So this seems like that perfectavenue to be able to share
those things and just kind ofhave a conversation about it and
a lot of those things too.
This is why I love having apodcast so much, because I
always feel like it's not enoughto just write a caption about
it.
It just feels so hollow andsome of these stories and some

(47:56):
of these things really do needthe space created of a
conversation and to be able tofeel the energy of it and it's
like the tone of voice and howall of that is coming through.
And so that's why I love thatwe have this outlet to be able
to share these things.
But what we can tell you is thatwe have experienced a ton of

(48:17):
failure, which we do want to getinto all of those stories,
because we want to demystify allof it.
We're because I think everybodyfeels that way.
They don't want to go oninstagram and randomly talk
about the times they failed orthe launches that didn't work,
or the money that was lost andthe bad decisions that were made

(48:37):
or the bad contract that wassigned, whatever.
Nobody is going to get on justone day and say that stuff, so
we're all left with highlightreels on instagram, which is
fine but you know, what is greatis like the.

Mak (48:48):
You can learn the most from those stories, the highlight
reels on on instagram and socialmedia.
They don't.
They don't really.
They don't really help as muchas it does when you can sit down
and have an honest conversationwith someone who's done
something and and where theystarted and where they they
ended up.
And your dad.
I love this.

(49:09):
One of the things I love aboutyour dad.
One of his pieces of advice tome has always been if you see an
old guy sitting on a bench, gosit next to him, because that
sounds like him yes, because youknow he said you just talked to
him about his life and you willget so much wisdom from that.
And you know he old guy, but anyolder person, man or woman,

(49:31):
there's so much wisdom there andit's because they've done stuff
, they've been around the block,and so that's what's so
exciting.
Even if you know someone andthey don't be 100 years old they
could be your age or evenyounger but if they've done
something that you're interestedin, sit down and actually be

(49:51):
genuinely interested in whatthey have to say and you will
learn something from that person.

Valerie (49:56):
Those painful moments in our lives and I'm even
talking beyond business failure,creative failure, but just even
the painful life moments thoseare often those life-shaping
things moments.
Those are often those lifeshaping things.
And isn't it so true thatwhenever you meet somebody and
and maybe you hear about whatthey do and it's like, oh,

(50:18):
that's really cool.
And then you hear their storyand you're just like, okay,
blown away.
Oh, my goodness, you hear whatthat person has gone through in
their life, where they came from, what they had to overcome to
be where they are, and thosestories they just they tug on my

(50:38):
heartstrings, they tug oneverybody's heartstrings because
we, we start to realize, one,our humanity, but two, that we
are connected in this beautiful,complex, crazy life, that
everybody has those ups andthose downs, and those dark
spots and those light spots, andit's all just weaving into you

(51:01):
and your story and it's allwelcome and it's all beautiful.
And often those dark spots aregoing to be what makes the light
spots brighter, because acandle is going to shine so
bright in a dark room ratherthan a candle in daylight.
So the darkness and thecontrast is often those pivotal

(51:22):
moments that mean so much, and Ithink that just goes for
everybody in their lives.

Mak (51:27):
So if seriously no one has ever created anything by doing
nothing, that's a good, that's agood line.

Valerie (51:36):
And if you nobody has created anything by doing
nothing.
I almost want to write thatdown.
Well, write it down, mac McKeon.

Mak (51:41):
There's some genius wisdom right there that I didn't even
know I had within me.
So do me a favor, seriously dome a favor.
Seriously do me a favor rightnow.
It's just you and me and Val inthe room right now, in your
ears, in your car.
Take a first step.
Just take a first step.
Don't worry about anything,don't worry about what it means,

(52:03):
don't even worry about the nextstep.
Just take a first step forwardand understand that at some
point it's not going to go theway you want and you might have
some feelings that are a littleuncomfortable, but as soon as
you become comfortable withbeing uncomfortable, you'll be
able to start actually creatingand bringing things into the

(52:23):
world that we all need and want.
There's some inkling in yourlife.
Please just start, just do it.
The world needs it.
So do it.
Just take a step, one step thisweek.
Take a step.
That's what we want from you.

Valerie (52:40):
Thank you so much for listening to this episode.
We're going to be back again.
We're going to share thosestories.

Mak (52:45):
actually, like we talked about, this is almost like a
part one I should say but hey,that is what I love about this
too.

Valerie (52:52):
This is unscripted, we are just going with the flow.
They can tell it's unscripted,which makes it fun and we are
just again so glad to be withyou.
If this was helpful to you,please consider leaving us a
review.
That really helps othercreatives who need this message
for it to get to them.
Maybe forward this to a friendand let us know too if you had a

(53:14):
takeaway from the episode.
I am at Valerie McKeon onInstagram.
Mac is at that, mac guy.
Mac is with a K.
We'd love to hear from you.

Mak (53:22):
Well, you have to say M-A-K .
M-a-k Because there's Mac M-A-Cand M-A-K.

Valerie (53:26):
Yeah, that's true.
There you go, see, val failedat that and I corrected her, but
she's just fine, I'll be okay.

Mak (53:34):
Thank you so much for listening.

Valerie (53:36):
We'll see you soon.
Bye.
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