March 31, 2025 • 51 mins
If you’ve ever said “I’m not a business person” because you’re creative, this episode is your wake-up call. The idea that creatives aren’t cut out for business is a story, and it’s a false one. In this conversation, we challenge the myth that creativity and business don’t belong together and show you how your artistic instincts are actually your biggest entrepreneurial superpower.
Whether you’re just starting out or feeling stuck inside someone else’s idea of how business should look, this episode will help you flip the script, reclaim your power, and finally start building in a way that feels aligned and alive.
You don’t need permission. You need the truth.
💡 5 Key Takeaways
- The belief that creatives aren't business-minded is a lie
It’s been repeated so often that many creatives accept it without question. It’s time to dismantle that. - Creativity is problem solving
And business is just a series of problems to solve. You’re already wired for it. - Success comes from the messy middle
Let go of needing it to be perfect. The magic happens in motion. - Stories shape your reality
The ones you tell yourself matter most. Change the story, change everything. - You don’t need to become someone else to succeed
You’re not missing anything. Who you are is exactly who you need to be.
Follow us on Instagram: @valeriemckeehan & @thatmakguy
Thanks for listening to The UnBound Creative!
If today’s episode resonated with you, share it with a friend or leave us a review, it helps more creatives discover the show.
💌 Connect with us on Instagram:
@valeriemckeehan & @thatmakguy (that’s Mak with a K!)
Keep creating bravely. We’re so glad you’re here.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Mak (00:06):
I don't think there's anything better than really cold
San Pellegrino out of theminiature glass bottle.
I don't, I mean it, I justthink it's like there's, it just
gets me going.
Except maybe you know, I loveAquapana.
Valerie (00:23):
You do.
I've gotten into Spindriftlately.
I was like LaCroix all the way.
Huge LaCroix fan Still am, butI like how Spindrift has the
real juice in it.
Mak (00:37):
Well, I think we switched because LaCroix supposedly had
bad stuff in it.
It's not good for your health.
The natural flavor.
Valerie (00:44):
I went on a real rabbit hole on that.
Mak (00:47):
I just spilled San Pellegrino all over my leg, but
I'm serious, there's justnothing better.
So if you need a little treatfor yourself, I recommend get
the six pack of the little greenones.
Stick them in your fridge and,right before you're doing
something heavy, get one out andput it on your desk.
I promise it'll make adifference.
Valerie (01:05):
I should save those green bottles.
Now I'm looking at them likewhat could I make out of that?
Mak (01:11):
That sounds like you.
Everything in this housebecomes something else.
We're always saving toiletpaper rolls or sponges.
Valerie (01:17):
I just used up all the toilet paper rolls.
We saved toilet paper and papertowel rolls for the entire
winter and I had a hugecollection of them and I used
every single one to do seed,starting in.
Mak (01:32):
And now we'll have beautiful plants all summer long
.
Valerie (01:38):
Thank you to the toilet paper rolls.
All of my recyclable projectscan be like a side note of the
podcast.
Mak (01:53):
This is the Unbound Creative Podcast.
I am Mac.
This is my wife, valerie, andwe're so glad to have you along
with us.
Valerie (01:56):
Episode five Hard to believe, but here we are, we're
going strong.
Mak (01:59):
We're back at it.
Valerie (02:01):
So today, there's something that we hear all of
the time, right, so think, ifyou've if you've heard this
phrasing.
It's like, oh, that's acreative person, they need a
business person.
Or like we put creativity andbusiness on opposite ends of the
spectrum oh yeah oh yeah,that's the right brain, left
(02:22):
brain person and that's they'rethe artist I hear.
Mak (02:27):
It seems to be like the antithesis of business I hear it
from artists oh, I'm a creative, I'm an artist, I'm not a
business person.
Yes, I almost hear it more fromthem than I do.
People who are just in businesssaying you need a business
person to help you do this it'sjust become another one of these
things we're.
Valerie (02:48):
We're kind of finding this groove mac.
I feel like of dismantlingthings that we just hear and
that we've just come to accept.
Almost.
I feel like every time we sitdown to talk it's almost like a
dismantling.
Another thing about creativesor about creativity that has
just become accepted somehow.
(03:10):
It's said so many times thatit's accepted.
We were talking about creativesand it being frivolous, or the
cultural messaging thatcreatives get that oh, that's
cute, until you're super, supersuccessful.
But then there's this wholeother slew of cultural messaging
that we get on creatives.
(03:31):
I think this is another exampleof the cultural messaging that
we've been just told so manytimes that we've come to accept
it.
Or creatives and artists havecome to accept it, me being one
of them.
I said this for how long?
Because you and I have been inbusiness together, actually.
Mak (03:53):
I don't want to admit this number out loud Now that you're
like bringing it up.
Is it 15 years?
Valerie (03:59):
Oh, maybe.
Mak (04:00):
Is it close to 16?
Because we're in thatneighborhood where we met.
Valerie (04:04):
Okay, so fun fact, and we'll dive more into our paths
in other episodes.
Mak (04:10):
Look, we've gotten a couple messages from people saying,
hey, tell us about yourbackground, about your story.
We want to hear more, and so wedon't want to sit here and talk
about ourselves.
So we're going to plan anepisode where we get into our
story from way back to now andeverything we did.
Valerie (04:25):
but but a little tidbit is we met while we were both
working in radio and we ended upstarting a marketing agency
together less than six monthsafter we left, because we met
after we met after we met?
Mak (04:42):
yes, after we left, no, after we met.
We both left that job like amonth after we met.
After we met, I mean not leftAfter we met.
We both left that job like amonth after we started our
advertising agency and everyonethought we were crazy.
Valerie (04:52):
Because we met the first day of spring, which is
very appropriate.
Yes, because that just happened.
So we met the first day ofspring and we ended up really
starting our business to thepoint that we quit in October.
Mak (05:07):
Yeah.
Valerie (05:08):
So that's not very long .
Mak (05:10):
That isn't long.
I mean that's when we quit, butI mean we had started in the
summer of that year because itwas hot.
I remember it being really hot,yeah, but anyway, that's
neither here nor there.
Valerie (05:18):
Anyway, the point is we started a business very soon
after we had met, which kind ofcrazy.
That's a whole other thing.
But I fell into that as well,where it's like well, I'm
creative.
I don't know if I'm a businessperson, but yet I, my family,
(05:38):
they I come from a line of smallbusiness owners.
I was entrepreneurial as achild.
I had American Girl magazineand that's probably dating me
too, but I loved crafts.
What I'm saying right now aboutthe bottles and everything,
(05:59):
that's just.
I've always been that way.
I've always been very crafty.
I love to make things and Iremember just as a kid really
young in elementary school Iwould get American Girl magazine
.
I would craft things from themagazine, like, I remember one
project it was pencils and youwould take embroidery floss and
(06:20):
glue it around the pencils andput these tassels and these
beads and they were so cool Idon't know how really you would
sharpen it.
I didn't know it, then I don'tkind of know now it didn't
matter.
It was so pretty and I tookthose to school and I would sell
them.
When I was in sixth grade Istarted a newspaper for my
school and I would just use myat-home printer, print out a
(06:45):
bunch of copies, take it toschool, sell it for a quarter.
So I was always entrepreneurial.
When I was little even, it justwas something about me.
But then I think the culturalmessaging really did seep in.
And maybe not right then whenwe started a business for our
agency, but definitely later inthe Lillian Val years when it
(07:06):
was my art business, I fell intothat trap of well, I'm an
artist and not really about thebusiness.
That's really sad.
It takes away power, I think,to creatives and artists.
Mak (07:23):
I had a similar story.
I had an entrepreneurial fatheras well.
He owned his own business and Idid very similar things.
I was a DJ, I was a mobile DJand I DJed my first wedding when
I was 10, I think somethinglike that, and so your first
wedding.
I did my first wedding when Iwas no.
It was for family.
Valerie (07:44):
Okay.
Mak (07:51):
I was going to say someone trusted you.
No, it was for family.
Okay, someone trusted you.
It was.
It was well, they, they, theydidn't have a lot of money.
And and there I.
There I was, um, uh, with myradio shack mixer and my dad's
speakers from hysteria, but, um,but I did the wedding and but I
got more gigs from that wedding.
So, like I got it was weirdanyway.
So I built a DJ company allthrough middle school and high
school and at the same time washad this burgeoning radio career
(08:12):
and but what happened to me wasI was super creative and I was
doing all kinds of my life wasnothing but creativity until I
was probably I don't know 20years old, at which point I
realized I told myself I've gotto learn how to be a businessman
.
And I full-throated went intolearning business, being an
(08:39):
entrepreneur and doing all thestuff.
I wrote business plans, I tooklocal business classes, I went
to mixers.
I did all the things trying tolearn how to be a businessman,
because I was convinced that Iwas not one and I always
separated the two things in myhead and I remember.
This is like therapy right now,because this is like coming up
(09:01):
as we're talking about it, thepodcast has been kind of like
therapy.
Well, that's what podcast?
That's what everybody says, goto a therapist Instead, everyone
makes a podcast.
But in my head I told myself Ican't be both.
I can't be a creative and Ican't be a businessman.
I have to pick one.
And I remember saying to myselfI've got this incredible career
(09:23):
, that I could go into a radioat the time this was a long time
ago, when radio was stillreally big, and I instead chose
to be a business person becauseI said I can make more money
being a business person.
And the truth is, I think if Ihad stuck with my radio career,
I might think my life would bevery different now.
But I, you know, I eventuallytried to merge the two, but it's
(09:48):
really weird.
Valerie (09:49):
But there was still that wall there, mentally of
nope, I got a strap on mybusiness suit and.
I'm serious business person.
Oh, and this is over.
Here is fun, creativity, artand play and joy and all of that
stuff.
Mak (10:04):
Yes, yes, but what I want to say and where we're headed
with this is the first businessthat really worked for me that
really took off was a marriageof the two, where I was fully in
my creativity but I was alsorunning the business and I let
the two kind of come togetherand it exploded.
Valerie (10:23):
You know what, mac, I'm thinking.
I'm even remembering instancesjust of our joint efforts
together.
Since that time we've alwayshad joint business efforts going
and I remember people evenasking us or interviews that we
would do, and I remember evenspecifically saying oh, it works
(10:43):
so well because I'm the artistand he's the business brain, but
that made so much sense toeverybody, everybody went along
with that.
I feel embarrassed even sayingthat, because it is so
diminishing of both of us.
Mak (11:03):
Yeah, it really is.
Valerie (11:05):
But isn't that so, like everybody, that we want to put
things in boxes and we want toput labels on them?
It just seems that that makeseverybody more comfortable, or
maybe it makes ourselves morecomfortable when we can say stay
in your lane, this is your lane, you're the artist.
(11:25):
You are supposed to be aloofand unorganized and not really
knowing what's going on.
And great, you know.
Great for you.
We know that about you.
You stay in your lane and thenyou're supposed to be serious
business, making decisions,having the power.
And yeah, it did.
(11:47):
We kind of took on thosestories.
Mak (11:51):
We did.
Valerie (11:52):
But it wasn't until I mean quite recently, I would say
, maybe in the last severalyears, we sort of had this
epiphany because we were sayingthat.
But yet Mac is incrediblycreative and artistic in his own
right.
Thank you, I am also.
I have business acumen.
Mak (12:14):
I have, like I said, been starting business and selling
things since I was a child aswell you have a lot of natural
giftings and leanings in thatway and you get it honestly
because your dad is anincredibly intelligent
businessman, yeah, and so you'vealways had that and I've always
had the creative side, but weboth labeled ourselves sort of
(12:37):
the opposite and it diminished.
Valerie (12:40):
each of us Correct.
Mak (12:41):
I think we could have done something much bigger if we had
just explored the been okaybeing both.
Valerie (12:46):
Well, because the stories that we tell ourselves
are so, so, so important andreally we believe that it's
often a story that's standing inthe way of anything.
You want anything, you want todo anything, you want to have
anything, you want to be.
If the story is that you can'thave that thing or that you are
(13:09):
not that thing, that is what isgoing to be the determiner of if
you get it or not and I'm goingto be even bolder to say it's
always a story, it's not.
Mak (13:20):
Sometimes it's always a story Even if you're sitting
there and you have no money andno friends and no connections.
You sitting there saying I haveno money, no friends and no
connections will keep you frommaking it happen.
But if you change the story andyou flip it around, you say I
am creative, I'm a good problemsolver, I'm capable, I'm capable
of making things happen formyself.
(13:41):
At the very least I can startcalling some people or talking
to some people.
Valerie (13:50):
It's amazing how that story changes and flips things.
It helps you get past thosecurrent circumstances, whatever
they are, because you can see alittle bit further.
It loosens the dust on justyour vision and we're all
walking around with virtualreality headsets on.
That's the thing and that'sanother lesson that I've really
(14:11):
come to learn and it's hit mehard because I also have this
tendency that I want everybodyto understand.
I think a lot of people arethat way People-pleasing
tendency.
But almost even another wing ofpeople-pleasing is this idea of
I want to be understood, and Ithink a lot of these labelings
(14:32):
and these boxes come from thefact that we just want to be
understood.
We want people to get who weare and we want to get who we
are.
So we label it and put it in abox.
But I've really had to work ongetting over this idea of being
understood and realizing thefact that everybody has their
(14:56):
own reality and realizing thefact that everybody has their
own reality.
We all have our own stories,what we've gone through, what
we're telling ourselves aboutcertain situations, and it is
actually impossible for you tobe fully understood in any
regard.
It just is.
It's impossible and maybe youhave examples in your families
(15:18):
or just situations that you'veseen unfold and you're
scratching your head going.
Did they hear the sameconversation?
I'd have that, where you hearone thing from one person and
one thing from another personand you go.
Were you guys in the same room?
Were you even talking?
Because how is it thisdifferent?
(15:40):
We all have that, everybodydoes.
It's the virtual how youperceive the world and perceive
reality.
So often, if somebody isperceiving you in a certain way
(16:03):
or they're not even seeing you,it's because of themselves.
It's a mirror.
We're seeing a mirror.
Mak (16:11):
I remember when, right after we met, or actually right
before we met, I had probablythe most spectacular failure of
my life and in business and Iwas carrying that with me back
into radio.
So I had been away from radiofor many years when we met and I
(16:33):
and I got back into it andright before we met I had this
and when and when I say whatwell, I well we're.
I'm gonna save that for anotherepisode.
That's called a teaser in radio.
See how good at this I am.
So so it was very public, veryhumiliating.
I mean news, news stationsinvolve my name being people are
(16:54):
gonna think really bad.
Valerie (16:55):
I really bad stuff.
I'm just talking about beingmisunderstood.
Mak (16:58):
I know, and I did.
I made mistakes.
I actually didn't do anythingwrong here, but I made bad
business decisions because I waslearning and I was really young
.
But at the same time, I hadjust come off of that and I
remember saying.
I remember saying, I remembertelling my parents I'm never
going to own another businessever again.
I'm never going to startanother business.
I'm a failed entrepreneur.
(17:19):
I tried this.
I've been trying to do thiskind of thing for a long time.
I'm just going to go back intoradio.
I'm going to rebuild my radiocareer.
I will never again start abusiness.
Never say never.
Well, that was a story I toldmyself.
I'm a failure.
That's what it was.
And I knew I was not a failurein radio.
So I went to where I knew Icould thrive.
(17:41):
But what happened is I met youand over the course of time, as
we started dating and getting toknow each other, we talked
about our past and everythinglike that, and you, in this
incredible way, reminded me thatno, I'm not a failure.
I actually do have worth andvalue.
(18:04):
And you helped me change thestory.
You helped me take a step backand recognize that, no, that
failure was something that Icould carry with me as education
, and within six months of thisbig event happening, where I
(18:25):
swore I'd never and I believed astory that I'm this terrible
guy, this terrible failure, I'mnot going to do this Guess what.
I started another business withyou, but you helped me change my
story.
You helped me recognize thatthe story I was telling myself
wasn't real, and if that hadn'thappened, we might not be
sitting here, because now we'rewhat?
Four businesses, maybe evenfive since then, I don't know,
(18:47):
and it's completely different.
And so that's what I thinkhappens to a lot of people is
they have an incident that youmight not have as big
spectacular failure, but itcould be as something as much as
a mentor or somebody yourespect goes.
I don to a lot of people isthey have an incident that you
might not have as bigspectacular failure, but it
could be as something as much asa mentor or somebody you
respect goes.
I don't really like this, Idon't think you're cut out for
that and you believe that forthe rest of your life, yeah and
you know what.
(19:07):
It's not true.
It's that person's opinion inthat moment.
But that doesn't mean that youshouldn't proceed forward.
But you believe and buy intothat story for the rest of your
life.
You changed my story and nowhere we are.
Valerie (19:21):
It is really incredible when you think of it in that
way, because I think at somepoint it becomes subconscious
and something may happen.
And then you just somebody sayssomething and you do, you just
adopt that as the truth and itjust becomes part of your psyche
, like these stories we'resaying, just even overall with
(19:42):
artists and creatives oh, theydon't make good business people.
Where did that come from?
Who even said that?
And maybe there are thingspopping in your head right now
of stories.
Maybe it needs anotherexamination.
Mak (19:55):
It absolutely needs another examination.
It's not a maybe for me.
Me, I think.
If you're listening right nowyou, you are.
You have a couple stories youalready is kind of pinging in
your head right now.
I think you need to re-examinethose stories.
We all have them, even now.
Even the most successful peoplein the world have these stories
that they're still overcomingand that they're still thinking
about.
And you and the topic of thisis creative people make great
(20:18):
business owners.
Valerie (20:19):
Yes, that's the point we want to get across.
Mak (20:21):
They make great entrepreneurs you are actually.
I think creatives are bettersuited to be entrepreneurs and
business owners than anybodyelse.
And you know what?
I'd be willing to bet that thefirst person that said creatives
shouldn't be entrepreneurs wasprobably an accountant or
something who was trying to selltheir service to creatives it
(20:41):
probably started that's how alot of this stuff starts.
It's just some marketingmessage and then it just becomes
the meme.
Valerie (20:47):
Yeah, because it's not true, we're running artists
through a program right nowcalled the peaceful artpreneur.
Um, we've been working with afantastic group of artists and
this is the first thing we saidto them on the first day is
artists make the best business,people the best.
Let's get this story out of ourhead.
(21:08):
And why?
Why would an artist make thebest business person?
Well, think about it.
Art, what, what you have to doto create something from nothing
.
You're taking a risk there.
You're taking vulnerability.
There you are getting messy,the willingness to do something
(21:31):
messy, to pivot when you need to, and you're not so focused on
that outcome.
You're there in the process.
You're making things work.
You're playing.
Mak (21:42):
You have to be Same thing for business.
You have to be in the process.
And if you're an artist, everysingle time you start with a
blank page, a blank canvas, andyou have to build something
beautiful.
You bring something that didn'texist previously, something
beautiful, something authentic,something real into the world.
(22:04):
But you don't just snap yourfingers and it shows up.
The process of actuallycreating that art.
Whether it's visual musicsculpture, I don't care what it
is, it is what Val said.
It's visual music sculpture, Idon't care what it is, it is
what Val said, it's messy, ittakes time and you have to focus
on solving a million problems.
Every stroke of the brush,every tap of the chisel, every
(22:30):
pluck of the string, you aresolving a problem.
That takes you to the nextproblem and then you solve that
problem and then it takes you tothe next problem and then you
solve that problem and then ittakes you to the next problem.
Sometimes it doesn't work.
So you got a back pedal and yougot a reef configure and you got
to work forward, especially invisual art.
You know you get the whole waydone.
You know, like pam beasley fromthe office says she's like oh,
(22:51):
whenever I mess up.
I just paint a bush over it,she goes.
So I stopped respectingpaintings with a bunch of bushes
, so but but the truth is it'slike you have to create.
You can't just paint a bushover it, you have to solve the
problem and that's all.
That's all owning a business isis is you are creating, you're
bringing something into theworld, You're bringing beauty
(23:13):
into the world by solving aproblem for somebody else, and
it's made up of nothing but aseries of small problems that
you have to continue to solve,but it fills you up so much
creatively to solve thoseproblems, and that's what makes
a business.
Valerie (23:24):
And, just like artists who focus solely on that outcome
, they're not going to be happyin their art practice.
That is so much of thesuffering of an artist, which
there are a ton of artistssuffering and who are blocked
because they are not approachingtheir art from the lens of
creativity.
(23:44):
And this was another hugeepiphany of why we even want to
do this podcast, because youthink you hear the word artist,
artist and I think people havethis view of, oh yeah, artists
flitting around and there arebutterflies everywhere, but
meanwhile, how many artists whoare suffering?
(24:07):
They are suffering and they'resuffering for their art and
they're miserable and they'rehard on themselves and this
thing that the world is sayingis frivolous feels so tied to
their identity and they don'tfeel good enough and they feel
like imposters and they feellike if only I could just get it
right.
And it brings up all of thisangst.
(24:28):
It's like such a minefield.
There are so many artists whoare not operating in their
creativity.
I was one of them for many, manyyears.
It had to be the good outcome.
I was angsty, my identity wasso tied to what I produced and
(24:49):
how well what I produced wasreceived.
That is such a difficult way tolive and that's not the most
effective way to live.
We somehow think that if wehold so tightly to the outcomes,
that that's going to give usthe result that we want, that if
we control it, then we're goingto get the better outcome.
(25:12):
But, as we see examples of inso many other areas of life,
that control is is the problem.
The control stifles the flow.
It stifles flow state it's.
It stifles what is is beautifuland spontaneous spontaneous
spontaneous and magical that canhappen.
(25:36):
So I I in my membership and whenI work with artists a huge
thing that I do is help artiststap back into their creativity,
where they have the freedom andthe confidence and the self-love
(25:56):
honestly, because it takes agreat deal of self-love to allow
yourself to do it badly andmake a mess.
That is my goal is to getartists from this place of
operating, from their creativity, so that they can make a mess.
Wait in the mess, they can makesomething bad, make a painting
(26:18):
that goes in the trash and knowthat that was time well spent.
It goes on the compost pile.
How can we follow the littlepings, the little whispers, the
little nudges and let that partof our souls open up, go louder
into the whispers and silencethe part that's saying sit down,
(26:39):
you're not good.
Mak (26:41):
And that's where fear plays into.
All of this is because we don'twant to do that publicly.
Everyone is afraid to step outand put that on display for the
world.
And when you're talking aboutyou know, in the case of
starting a business, people aregoing to see it.
But this is where my favoritephrase, nobody cares comes in.
(27:02):
Because nobody cares People.
They're paying attention for abrief moment in time, maybe 10,
maybe 15 seconds and then theymove on to the next thing in
their life.
And it's because you do thattoo.
You hear something oh, such andsuch is starting a business.
Oh, wow, that's interesting.
I never knew they were intothis or that.
Or I think they're going to dogreat, or I don't think they're
(27:23):
going to do well at all.
And then you move on and yousay what was the score of the
game this weekend?
What time do I have to pick upthe kids?
What are we having for dinner?
And that's it.
It was literally five seconds.
And that big event where I hadmy big public spectacular
failure, however many years ago,was now how many people are
still talking about that eventto this day?
(27:44):
Nobody.
And they weren't talking aboutit a week after it happened
right and and so.
So my point here is we'reafraid to be messy in front of
people.
Yeah, and that's what owning abusiness is.
It's being a little messy infront of people because it may
not work, and that's okay,because you can always pivot,
(28:06):
you can always change, change.
But what keeps you stuck, whatkeeps you from moving forward
and understanding that yourcreativity is the most powerful
thing about you being a businessowner or starting a business,
is being able to be messy infront of other people.
Valerie (28:23):
Yeah, people are thinking about themselves.
That's it.
They think about themselves,and we all do it too.
So people aren't thinking aboutyou the way that they think
about themselves, and we all, weall do it too.
so people aren't thinking aboutyou the way that you think about
you oh yeah and your ownself-consciousness, for sure,
and what I was saying withartists and helping them tap
into that actual realm ofcreativity that is a superpower
(28:46):
and that becomes an a microcosmfor all other areas of life.
I firmly believe that when youget into an art practice or a
creative practice where you areoperating from that place of
curiosity, wonder, beauty,following those whispers,
letting it be messy, not tied tothe outcome, you're loving your
(29:06):
life in the moment.
You're getting into flow state,and did you know that that is
the happiest we can be?
Studies have found that when weare lost in flow state, we
think that maybe we want to cometo a place of calm, but that's
not where we're the happiest,because we hit that and we want
to be challenged.
(29:27):
We want to go into flow stateas human beings.
That's where we're the happiest.
I think that's a really coolthing.
But those skills, when you canlearn to operate from the lens
of creativity, that is asuperpower in life.
But in business, and I firmlybelieve, we firmly believe that
(29:49):
more creatives should be inbusiness, because that way of
doing business, just like thatway of creating something, is
more effective.
It's way more effective whenyou're in flow state and when
you are just getting messythrough it.
That's how we get discoveries,that's how we get uniqueness,
that's how you tap into thatpart of you that speaks to you.
(30:12):
It's the same thing withbusiness.
When you are willing to nothold so tightly to the outcome
that, if people don't love itright away, if you're not tied
to I need this to work, you arejust in it for the process of
building and creating.
That is a superpower inbusiness.
Mak (30:34):
And when Val says process of creating and building, that
is the process of creativeproblem solving, because that's
all that it is and that's whyyou should be good at it.
Because you're a creative, youcan come up with creative
solutions to anything.
And Rory Sutherland, who I havejust, I've just really like
I've fallen in love with thatguy we should interview him on
the podcast.
His whole philosophy is thatcreatives are better set up for
(31:01):
success in business and problemsolving than the traditional
scientific thinkers of the world.
And his philosophy is this, theopposite of a good solution I
think I'm saying it right is isanother good solution.
So so the point is, throughoutlife and what we've all been
(31:24):
taught and educated, and nowkind of what the general
consensus is in the corporateworld, is that there's one way
to solve a problem and you haveto figure out that one way
scientists effective right andscientists and thinkers, they,
they try to find that one way.
Oh, we figured out how to solveand that is now the only way to
solve that problem.
But a creative person the onewho might be a little, a little
(31:47):
crazy usually has a multitude ofways to solve the problem that
don't seem logical or make sense.
And one of my favorite examplesof this is a Rory Sutherland
example where he's talking abouthe I think it was a client of
his they had this big buildingand everyone was complaining
(32:08):
about how slow the elevatorswere in the building.
So the people who own thebuilding were about to invest I
don't know $10 million toupgrade all the elevators.
And Rory Sutherland came in andI might be butchering the
details of the story, so, butanyway, you get the gist.
Rory Sutherland came in andsaid I can solve this for $1,000
.
And they all puzzled, sayingsaying what do you mean?
(32:31):
And he said put mirrors next tothe elevator doors on each
floor.
And they did that and poof,everyone stopped complaining.
Everybody stopped complainingbecause they had something to
look at while they were waitingfor the elevator to come.
That wasn't their phone.
They're checking themselves outin the mirror.
They're looking at the mirror.
And so what a great solution.
(32:56):
So the automatic place that thethinking minds go is well, we've
got to speed up the elevators.
But the truth is no.
We have to look at all of thethings that are actually taking
place in that moment and whatare creative ways to solve the
real problem at the root ofthese things?
And that's why creatives aregreat, because creatives it's
(33:18):
like.
It's like, you know.
Another, another example of isis like is these trains in the
uk.
You know they wanted to shave20 minutes off the trip and he
said you should give thatsolution to disney and let them
solve that problem, because theywould come up with a thousand
really creative ways to solvethe problem of, of of the the
(33:39):
train trip and get morepleasurable versus shaving the
time off exactly all of thedifferent ways you can and.
And his point there was theyspent like $3 billion to take 22
minutes off this train trip.
$3 billion and he said, for atenth of that we could have
(33:59):
hired every male and femalemodel in the UK to walk up and
down the train during serviceand hand out free shots of
Petrus, and people would haveasked you to slow the train down
, he's like, because because theconcept there was that people
wanted to be wanted to get homefaster, he's like.
But no, actually, people don'tmind it taking a long time to
(34:22):
get home, as long as they'recomfortable or they're happy or
whatever.
And so that, see, and that's acreative solution versus the
scientific solution.
Valerie (34:30):
It's a linear black and white type of a solution, and
so you're listening here.
Mak (34:34):
You're creative.
That's why you would make agreat business owner, because
there are way more ways to solveproblems than just the typical
like Val said black and white,scientific solution, and that's
why creatives make greatbusiness owners.
Valerie (34:50):
I think the other reason why artists and creatives
make amazing business owners isbecause they are attuned to
what is below the surface, evenwith other human beings.
Artists in particular arethinking about feelings.
They're selling energy, theyare creating something, they're
creating emotion that is soconnective to other human beings
(35:16):
.
And if you think about business, it's people, it's other people
connecting with other peopleand with solutions and with
things that are going to maketheir lives better.
That is a huge superpower of anartist and a creative to be
(35:36):
able to tap into those places,those feelings, those emotions,
to relate to other people inbusiness.
So much of business is aboutempathy.
It's having the empathy foryour customers and their needs
and what they want and whatthey're looking for.
And when you are somebodyattuned to those things, you're
(36:00):
not just looking at things interms of black and white.
You are thinking below thatsurface in order to build these
experiences and build thesebrands that really connect on an
empathetic level, on a humanlevel.
There is so much said for thatand we could go on and on, just
(36:21):
about the topic of branding, howthe power is in the story again
, of the brand and how it makessomebody else feel.
Creatives have such a cool wayof telling stories we can.
I'm even.
I'm thinking about um, I don'tknow why, this just popped in my
(36:43):
head, but you know, in thelittle mermaid and she has a
fork and she's like it's adinglehopper or whatever.
Mak (36:49):
A thingamabob.
A thingamabob, I likedinglehopper though.
Valerie (36:52):
That's what creatives do, though.
We take these things and we'relike, hey, look at this really
cool thing, and as a creative,you are showing everybody the
way that you see the world, andif you see it in this really
magical, interesting way haveyou ever thought of this?
Then we bring people along intothat, and that's what brand
(37:15):
building is.
That's what it brings life andjoy and color to other people's
lives.
When we are selling beauty andmaking that invitation to
experience beauty in those ways.
Mak (37:29):
So look, if you're creative and you've been telling
yourself the story for such along time, I can't start a
business, or I shouldn't sell myart, or I shouldn't do this or
shouldn't do that.
I'm not good at this Because I'mnot good at this, or I need to
talk to my brother-in-law, who'san attorney, or whatever.
Forget all that.
You're ready to go yourbrother-in-law, who's the
(37:52):
attorney.
He needs to talk to you becauseyou'll probably have some
creative ways to help him out ofsome pickles that he's dealing
with for his clients.
And if you are owning abusiness right now and you
constantly rely on some of yourexecutives to solve some
problems, maybe, maybe talk tothe, maybe talk to the people
that are a little left to centerin your marketing department
about solving some biggerfinancial issues within your
company or whatever things youmight be facing, because I'm
(38:18):
sick of creatives not gettingthe respect that they deserve,
because creatives are the oneswho make the world go round it
is-, look at Walt DisneyLiterally the Steve Jobs the
creatives and it's like are theones who, like make the world go
round it is.
It is Walt Disney, literallyjobs, the creatives and and it's
like I almost feel likeeverybody else who you know, I,
you know I I hate to be a guywho's like pitting one side
against another, so I'm liketrying to dance around this, but
(38:41):
like the, the executives, whoare all like all the financial
and we have to be all seriousand all this stuff, it's like
the whole reason that you areexisting, being serious, is so
that you can go somewhere wherea creative has set up an
environment for you to enjoyyourself, like a restaurant, a
vacation, a movie, a Broadwayshow, whatever the case is.
But then people like that tendto be so down on creative people
(39:04):
and it's like but you're livingto go experience what the
creatives create.
Valerie (39:08):
It's the Robin Williams in the Dead Poets Society that
engineers and these things thatwe need, and this is the thing
we need all types of people inthis world.
That is what makes the world goaround and we need everybody.
And the quote is it's one of myfavorite quotes that we need
the engineers and and thingsbecause that sustain lives.
(39:30):
It sustains life, but it's thepoets, it's the creatives, it's
the artists that make life worthliving and I want to say this
too.
Mak (39:39):
I need to get this out because of what I just said and
I'm not backpedaling, I I stillmean what I just said, but I
believe that the people who areof the science mind and I think
you're creative too, I think, ifyou're an accountant or an
attorney- or a.
CEO or whatever.
You have creativity within youand you are doing something
creative.
So, like, dig into that alittle bit.
(40:03):
Maybe there's a story goingaround in your head that you
have.
You have a new way of doingaccounting that you have just
never tried because you'reafraid of what your peers will
think, or whatever.
Lean into that, because I dobelieve that every single human
being on the planet is creative.
But in this world whereeverybody has been put into
boxes, I don't appreciate howthe creatives are the ones who
(40:24):
kind of get the short end of thestick from the people in the
other box, because, guess what?
There are no boxes.
We're all creative and weshould all be supporting each
other.
Valerie (40:34):
Yeah, and this isn't to say, too, that you have to
create a business as a creativeand an artist, but I do feel
like there are a lot of peoplewho would dream of that, but
they've been told no, that's notfor you, or no, you're not cut
out to do that.
We make things so much harderthan they have to be because we
(40:55):
hear these things like the wordbusiness, and then, all of a
sudden, you are having fun withyour art and with your
creativity and your creativeoutlet.
However, you do that, and thenyou hear the word business and
it's like a voiceover comes overbusiness and you have to put on
the suit and get really, really, really serious and what we're
(41:17):
saying is no, no, you don't.
You get to still be creative inbusiness and, in fact, that's
going to help you create abetter business, a more
effective business.
So if that is a story that isgoing on in your head, we just
want to squash that story.
And what if?
What would open up to you ifyou didn't have that story?
What if you said, well, maybethis is for me, maybe just
(41:41):
because I haven't done it beforedoesn't mean that I'm not good
at it.
Mak (41:45):
And look, I see it.
I see it all the time with my,with my personal business
clients.
My favorite thing about being abusiness coach is the moment,
usually when the first call,where I help my clients realize
they've been living a storybecause they're frustrated with
their business or things aren'tgoing the way they want, and I
help them realize, oh, youstarted this business because
(42:09):
you're creative and you weresolving a problem that you
really wanted to solve to helpother people, and it's like that
spark goes off and you see themrelax.
It's like they're intense andthen 20 minutes into the call,
they're relaxed, they'relaughing, they're talking about
why they love what they do andthey're passionate about it
again and I'm going yes, this isit, and that's what I love to
(42:32):
do is help people who've gottencaught in all the stories that
are you have to run yourbusiness like this and you have
to do this and you have to dothis.
You have to have a business plan, you have to have a payroll
thing and you have to do this,and you have to do accounting
like this and you have to dothis.
And they tell themselves I haveto have all these things in
(42:55):
line, they have to be perfectand I come in and I go, no,
let's get back to the creativeperson who wanted to start this
business to begin with.
And it's like when all thatstuff melts away, there's like
I'm like looking at a childwho's walking into Disney World
for the first time and it is themost beautiful thing in the
world and that's what I loveabout what I do and what we're
doing with your peacefulentrepreneur and what the
(43:15):
purpose of this podcast is andwhy I'm so lit up, because I
just everybody has that.
You have that in you right now.
Please examine those stories.
Valerie (43:25):
I just thought about.
We live in Nashville and we fora while we were going to 12
South and there's Bar Taco there.
It's really good.
We would go there and we wouldwalk down 12 South and on one
instance there was a girl therewho was selling bracelets that
(43:45):
she made on the side of thestreet on 12 South.
Mak (43:49):
You have to say this we had , we had our family with us yes
and this is the little girl shewas maybe eight, nine, ten I
would say like ten yes,somewhere in that neighborhood
somewhere in that neighborhoodbut by herself.
Valerie (44:00):
It at least appeared that way it appeared that way,
but then you do see parents setup on their lawn chairs like a
little bit far off, but they hadto be like 20 feet away, or she
was really cute so she set upwith these bracelets that she
made and they say all kinds ofthings and there were like
taylor, swift things andbachelorette things and national
things and cowgirl, thing, allthis stuff charms really cute
(44:21):
little bracelets.
Um, vienna, of course, instantlywanted one.
We wanted to support her.
We bought these bracelets.
So we saw her the one time andwe're like, oh, that's cool.
And then we went again, we sawher again and, mac, you struck
up a conversation with her dadyes and he told you she's making
(44:43):
real money like legit moneyfrom these bracelets I think her
, I think he said her best monthwas like A couple thousand
dollars a weekend.
Mak (44:51):
Yeah, her best weekend was like 2,000 bucks or something In
these little plastic bracelets.
Valerie (44:55):
These bracelets.
Mak (44:56):
And he goes and she's only here for like two hours or three
hours.
Valerie (45:01):
Let that be a story to everybody.
We complicate things, we makeit so hard, we make the barrier
to entry so huge in our mindsand it feels like this
unscalable wall and we're notcut out for it and we're artists
(45:21):
and all of this.
I want you to think about thatlittle girl on the side of the
street making real money, doingwhat she loves, going to school.
Still, she's a child, yeah,she's in middle school or
elementary school.
These bracelets and saying Imade this, here is my offering
(45:42):
of that.
It's X amount of dollars.
Do you want to buy it and havethis exchange, yes or no?
And and what?
Mak (45:50):
that is business and what's great is she's in this age and
I because this is, this is story, this is brand she's in this
age where you go and you see thebracelets and they're they.
Obviously she's not just makingthese things in like five
seconds, they're taking time andshe's selling them, I don't
know, for a buck, two, two buckstwo bucks a piece and everybody
(46:13):
there's like, oh, oh, darling,here, just take a 10, take a 20,
take it what?
because she's got this greatlittle stand, she's a little
smile, she's so friendly andit's just like the story is
there and you just like I wantto support this little girl, yes
, and so that's how she's makingall this money.
It's like people are giving her10 times what she's asking and
(46:35):
a super cute product and youknow, I know, oh yeah, she's a
kid mac.
Yeah, but this.
But what happens is when youget in the story and you get in
the vibe and you're, and you'reauthentic and you're lit up,
that's what people will give you10 times what you're asking.
I don't care if you're eight or80, it will happen.
Valerie (46:51):
Yeah, if you connect on again that level, you are being
true to you and authentic toyou.
You have that, that piece ofyour heart that you just want to
share and just want to put outthere.
That's the stuff that becomesmagnetized, that's the stuff
that people were like, um, I'llhave what she's having, you know
.
So we overcomplicate it and wemake all of these things and
(47:15):
really it boils down to that you, in your creativity, doing
something that you love, makingan invitation to other people if
they want to experience and bein this with you.
And we can go more intobusiness, which we will, but
just for today, the biggesttakeaway here is it's not that
(47:38):
hard One.
If you are having this storythat it's hard, you're not cut
out for it.
I'm an artist.
Therefore, I'm not a goodbusiness person.
We want you to re-examine thatstory, because it could be
holding you back.
And when you start to letyourself dream without a story,
what's there?
Is there a desire that wells up?
(47:58):
Is there something that feelslike oh, I never thought that
was for me, but maybe it couldbe for me.
Let yourself go there, letyourself go into those what if?
Questions.
I tell my students that all thetime.
Art mirrors life, it'smicrocosm.
And I will say to them, whenyou are in the painting process,
your number one question iswhat if?
(48:19):
If you're asking what ifquestions, you're doing it right
, you're going down the rightpath.
What if I add this?
What if I try this?
What if this would happen?
What if this, following thosewhat ifs?
You do the same thing for yourbusiness, for your life, you
open up.
That's opening up to curiosity,and you will be surprised what
(48:40):
happens when you just ask thequestion.
Your brain likes to solveproblems.
When we give it a question, itwill search for things to fill
that with.
So start asking some what if?
Questions.
If this is speaking to you, andoften if you do have a story
that maybe this something cameup in the course of us talking,
(49:03):
where you're like oh yeah, mymiddle school art teacher told
me that I wasn't very good.
Or my college professor saidyou know, you need to really
think about doing something else.
Or, who knows, whateversomebody said.
If you're thinking about that,maybe turn that into a what if
question.
What if they were wrong?
What if I'm not bad at music?
(49:25):
What if I?
My dad?
He's told this story.
He's 70 years old and he willsay the exact teacher, the name
of the teacher in middle schoolthat told him he had a tin ear.
To this day, he says that thesestories run deep.
And what if that just wasn'ttrue?
So what if questions are goingto be your best friend?
(49:48):
We really hope that this openedup something for you today.
Thank you so much for listening.
We just are continuing to beblown away by your downloads, by
your messages.
Thank you so so much.
I'm Valerie McKeon on Instagramat Valerie McKeon.
Mac is at that.
Mac guy Mac is M-A-K.
(50:09):
We love hearing with you.
We love connecting with you.
If you have a moment and thiswas a helpful episode to you we
would be so grateful if youwould share it with a friend who
might need it or if you wouldleave us a review.
Those reviews really, reallyhelp other creatives that feel
like they are in a box find usso that they can also be
(50:31):
unleashed and live unbound.
And who even knows the beautyand the magnificence that is
going to come from creativesbeing unbound?
Mak (50:40):
And if you haven't done it yet, hit the subscribe button
too, because that really helpsalso, and then you'll get
notifications every time weupload a new episode.
So thank you so much for beinghere.
We'll see you really soon, andwe hope you have a great day bye
.
I don't think there's anything better than really cold
San Pellegrino out of theminiature glass bottle.
I don't, I mean it, I justthink it's like there's, it just
gets me going.
Except maybe you know, I loveAquapana.
Valerie (00:23):
You do.
I've gotten into Spindriftlately.
I was like LaCroix all the way.
Huge LaCroix fan Still am, butI like how Spindrift has the
real juice in it.
Mak (00:37):
Well, I think we switched because LaCroix supposedly had
bad stuff in it.
It's not good for your health.
The natural flavor.
Valerie (00:44):
I went on a real rabbit hole on that.
Mak (00:47):
I just spilled San Pellegrino all over my leg, but
I'm serious, there's justnothing better.
So if you need a little treatfor yourself, I recommend get
the six pack of the little greenones.
Stick them in your fridge and,right before you're doing
something heavy, get one out andput it on your desk.
I promise it'll make adifference.
Valerie (01:05):
I should save those green bottles.
Now I'm looking at them likewhat could I make out of that?
Mak (01:11):
That sounds like you.
Everything in this housebecomes something else.
We're always saving toiletpaper rolls or sponges.
Valerie (01:17):
I just used up all the toilet paper rolls.
We saved toilet paper and papertowel rolls for the entire
winter and I had a hugecollection of them and I used
every single one to do seed,starting in.
Mak (01:32):
And now we'll have beautiful plants all summer long
.
Valerie (01:38):
Thank you to the toilet paper rolls.
All of my recyclable projectscan be like a side note of the
podcast.
Mak (01:53):
This is the Unbound Creative Podcast.
I am Mac.
This is my wife, valerie, andwe're so glad to have you along
with us.
Valerie (01:56):
Episode five Hard to believe, but here we are, we're
going strong.
Mak (01:59):
We're back at it.
Valerie (02:01):
So today, there's something that we hear all of
the time, right, so think, ifyou've if you've heard this
phrasing.
It's like, oh, that's acreative person, they need a
business person.
Or like we put creativity andbusiness on opposite ends of the
spectrum oh yeah oh yeah,that's the right brain, left
(02:22):
brain person and that's they'rethe artist I hear.
Mak (02:27):
It seems to be like the antithesis of business I hear it
from artists oh, I'm a creative, I'm an artist, I'm not a
business person.
Yes, I almost hear it more fromthem than I do.
People who are just in businesssaying you need a business
person to help you do this it'sjust become another one of these
things we're.
Valerie (02:48):
We're kind of finding this groove mac.
I feel like of dismantlingthings that we just hear and
that we've just come to accept.
Almost.
I feel like every time we sitdown to talk it's almost like a
dismantling.
Another thing about creativesor about creativity that has
just become accepted somehow.
(03:10):
It's said so many times thatit's accepted.
We were talking about creativesand it being frivolous, or the
cultural messaging thatcreatives get that oh, that's
cute, until you're super, supersuccessful.
But then there's this wholeother slew of cultural messaging
that we get on creatives.
(03:31):
I think this is another exampleof the cultural messaging that
we've been just told so manytimes that we've come to accept
it.
Or creatives and artists havecome to accept it, me being one
of them.
I said this for how long?
Because you and I have been inbusiness together, actually.
Mak (03:53):
I don't want to admit this number out loud Now that you're
like bringing it up.
Is it 15 years?
Valerie (03:59):
Oh, maybe.
Mak (04:00):
Is it close to 16?
Because we're in thatneighborhood where we met.
Valerie (04:04):
Okay, so fun fact, and we'll dive more into our paths
in other episodes.
Mak (04:10):
Look, we've gotten a couple messages from people saying,
hey, tell us about yourbackground, about your story.
We want to hear more, and so wedon't want to sit here and talk
about ourselves.
So we're going to plan anepisode where we get into our
story from way back to now andeverything we did.
Valerie (04:25):
but but a little tidbit is we met while we were both
working in radio and we ended upstarting a marketing agency
together less than six monthsafter we left, because we met
after we met after we met?
Mak (04:42):
yes, after we left, no, after we met.
We both left that job like amonth after we met.
After we met, I mean not leftAfter we met.
We both left that job like amonth after we started our
advertising agency and everyonethought we were crazy.
Valerie (04:52):
Because we met the first day of spring, which is
very appropriate.
Yes, because that just happened.
So we met the first day ofspring and we ended up really
starting our business to thepoint that we quit in October.
Mak (05:07):
Yeah.
Valerie (05:08):
So that's not very long .
Mak (05:10):
That isn't long.
I mean that's when we quit, butI mean we had started in the
summer of that year because itwas hot.
I remember it being really hot,yeah, but anyway, that's
neither here nor there.
Valerie (05:18):
Anyway, the point is we started a business very soon
after we had met, which kind ofcrazy.
That's a whole other thing.
But I fell into that as well,where it's like well, I'm
creative.
I don't know if I'm a businessperson, but yet I, my family,
(05:38):
they I come from a line of smallbusiness owners.
I was entrepreneurial as achild.
I had American Girl magazineand that's probably dating me
too, but I loved crafts.
What I'm saying right now aboutthe bottles and everything,
(05:59):
that's just.
I've always been that way.
I've always been very crafty.
I love to make things and Iremember just as a kid really
young in elementary school Iwould get American Girl magazine
.
I would craft things from themagazine, like, I remember one
project it was pencils and youwould take embroidery floss and
(06:20):
glue it around the pencils andput these tassels and these
beads and they were so cool Idon't know how really you would
sharpen it.
I didn't know it, then I don'tkind of know now it didn't
matter.
It was so pretty and I tookthose to school and I would sell
them.
When I was in sixth grade Istarted a newspaper for my
school and I would just use myat-home printer, print out a
(06:45):
bunch of copies, take it toschool, sell it for a quarter.
So I was always entrepreneurial.
When I was little even, it justwas something about me.
But then I think the culturalmessaging really did seep in.
And maybe not right then whenwe started a business for our
agency, but definitely later inthe Lillian Val years when it
(07:06):
was my art business, I fell intothat trap of well, I'm an
artist and not really about thebusiness.
That's really sad.
It takes away power, I think,to creatives and artists.
Mak (07:23):
I had a similar story.
I had an entrepreneurial fatheras well.
He owned his own business and Idid very similar things.
I was a DJ, I was a mobile DJand I DJed my first wedding when
I was 10, I think somethinglike that, and so your first
wedding.
I did my first wedding when Iwas no.
It was for family.
Valerie (07:44):
Okay.
Mak (07:51):
I was going to say someone trusted you.
No, it was for family.
Okay, someone trusted you.
It was.
It was well, they, they, theydidn't have a lot of money.
And and there I.
There I was, um, uh, with myradio shack mixer and my dad's
speakers from hysteria, but, um,but I did the wedding and but I
got more gigs from that wedding.
So, like I got it was weirdanyway.
So I built a DJ company allthrough middle school and high
school and at the same time washad this burgeoning radio career
(08:12):
and but what happened to me wasI was super creative and I was
doing all kinds of my life wasnothing but creativity until I
was probably I don't know 20years old, at which point I
realized I told myself I've gotto learn how to be a businessman
.
And I full-throated went intolearning business, being an
(08:39):
entrepreneur and doing all thestuff.
I wrote business plans, I tooklocal business classes, I went
to mixers.
I did all the things trying tolearn how to be a businessman,
because I was convinced that Iwas not one and I always
separated the two things in myhead and I remember.
This is like therapy right now,because this is like coming up
(09:01):
as we're talking about it, thepodcast has been kind of like
therapy.
Well, that's what podcast?
That's what everybody says, goto a therapist Instead, everyone
makes a podcast.
But in my head I told myself Ican't be both.
I can't be a creative and Ican't be a businessman.
I have to pick one.
And I remember saying to myselfI've got this incredible career
(09:23):
, that I could go into a radioat the time this was a long time
ago, when radio was stillreally big, and I instead chose
to be a business person becauseI said I can make more money
being a business person.
And the truth is, I think if Ihad stuck with my radio career,
I might think my life would bevery different now.
But I, you know, I eventuallytried to merge the two, but it's
(09:48):
really weird.
Valerie (09:49):
But there was still that wall there, mentally of
nope, I got a strap on mybusiness suit and.
I'm serious business person.
Oh, and this is over.
Here is fun, creativity, artand play and joy and all of that
stuff.
Mak (10:04):
Yes, yes, but what I want to say and where we're headed
with this is the first businessthat really worked for me that
really took off was a marriageof the two, where I was fully in
my creativity but I was alsorunning the business and I let
the two kind of come togetherand it exploded.
Valerie (10:23):
You know what, mac, I'm thinking.
I'm even remembering instancesjust of our joint efforts
together.
Since that time we've alwayshad joint business efforts going
and I remember people evenasking us or interviews that we
would do, and I remember evenspecifically saying oh, it works
(10:43):
so well because I'm the artistand he's the business brain, but
that made so much sense toeverybody, everybody went along
with that.
I feel embarrassed even sayingthat, because it is so
diminishing of both of us.
Mak (11:03):
Yeah, it really is.
Valerie (11:05):
But isn't that so, like everybody, that we want to put
things in boxes and we want toput labels on them?
It just seems that that makeseverybody more comfortable, or
maybe it makes ourselves morecomfortable when we can say stay
in your lane, this is your lane, you're the artist.
(11:25):
You are supposed to be aloofand unorganized and not really
knowing what's going on.
And great, you know.
Great for you.
We know that about you.
You stay in your lane and thenyou're supposed to be serious
business, making decisions,having the power.
And yeah, it did.
(11:47):
We kind of took on thosestories.
Mak (11:51):
We did.
Valerie (11:52):
But it wasn't until I mean quite recently, I would say
, maybe in the last severalyears, we sort of had this
epiphany because we were sayingthat.
But yet Mac is incrediblycreative and artistic in his own
right.
Thank you, I am also.
I have business acumen.
Mak (12:14):
I have, like I said, been starting business and selling
things since I was a child aswell you have a lot of natural
giftings and leanings in thatway and you get it honestly
because your dad is anincredibly intelligent
businessman, yeah, and so you'vealways had that and I've always
had the creative side, but weboth labeled ourselves sort of
(12:37):
the opposite and it diminished.
Valerie (12:40):
each of us Correct.
Mak (12:41):
I think we could have done something much bigger if we had
just explored the been okaybeing both.
Valerie (12:46):
Well, because the stories that we tell ourselves
are so, so, so important andreally we believe that it's
often a story that's standing inthe way of anything.
You want anything, you want todo anything, you want to have
anything, you want to be.
If the story is that you can'thave that thing or that you are
(13:09):
not that thing, that is what isgoing to be the determiner of if
you get it or not and I'm goingto be even bolder to say it's
always a story, it's not.
Mak (13:20):
Sometimes it's always a story Even if you're sitting
there and you have no money andno friends and no connections.
You sitting there saying I haveno money, no friends and no
connections will keep you frommaking it happen.
But if you change the story andyou flip it around, you say I
am creative, I'm a good problemsolver, I'm capable, I'm capable
of making things happen formyself.
(13:41):
At the very least I can startcalling some people or talking
to some people.
Valerie (13:50):
It's amazing how that story changes and flips things.
It helps you get past thosecurrent circumstances, whatever
they are, because you can see alittle bit further.
It loosens the dust on justyour vision and we're all
walking around with virtualreality headsets on.
That's the thing and that'sanother lesson that I've really
(14:11):
come to learn and it's hit mehard because I also have this
tendency that I want everybodyto understand.
I think a lot of people arethat way People-pleasing
tendency.
But almost even another wing ofpeople-pleasing is this idea of
I want to be understood, and Ithink a lot of these labelings
(14:32):
and these boxes come from thefact that we just want to be
understood.
We want people to get who weare and we want to get who we
are.
So we label it and put it in abox.
But I've really had to work ongetting over this idea of being
understood and realizing thefact that everybody has their
(14:56):
own reality and realizing thefact that everybody has their
own reality.
We all have our own stories,what we've gone through, what
we're telling ourselves aboutcertain situations, and it is
actually impossible for you tobe fully understood in any
regard.
It just is.
It's impossible and maybe youhave examples in your families
(15:18):
or just situations that you'veseen unfold and you're
scratching your head going.
Did they hear the sameconversation?
I'd have that, where you hearone thing from one person and
one thing from another personand you go.
Were you guys in the same room?
Were you even talking?
Because how is it thisdifferent?
(15:40):
We all have that, everybodydoes.
It's the virtual how youperceive the world and perceive
reality.
So often, if somebody isperceiving you in a certain way
(16:03):
or they're not even seeing you,it's because of themselves.
It's a mirror.
We're seeing a mirror.
Mak (16:11):
I remember when, right after we met, or actually right
before we met, I had probablythe most spectacular failure of
my life and in business and Iwas carrying that with me back
into radio.
So I had been away from radiofor many years when we met and I
(16:33):
and I got back into it andright before we met I had this
and when and when I say whatwell, I well we're.
I'm gonna save that for anotherepisode.
That's called a teaser in radio.
See how good at this I am.
So so it was very public, veryhumiliating.
I mean news, news stationsinvolve my name being people are
(16:54):
gonna think really bad.
Valerie (16:55):
I really bad stuff.
I'm just talking about beingmisunderstood.
Mak (16:58):
I know, and I did.
I made mistakes.
I actually didn't do anythingwrong here, but I made bad
business decisions because I waslearning and I was really young
.
But at the same time, I hadjust come off of that and I
remember saying.
I remember saying, I remembertelling my parents I'm never
going to own another businessever again.
I'm never going to startanother business.
I'm a failed entrepreneur.
(17:19):
I tried this.
I've been trying to do thiskind of thing for a long time.
I'm just going to go back intoradio.
I'm going to rebuild my radiocareer.
I will never again start abusiness.
Never say never.
Well, that was a story I toldmyself.
I'm a failure.
That's what it was.
And I knew I was not a failurein radio.
So I went to where I knew Icould thrive.
(17:41):
But what happened is I met youand over the course of time, as
we started dating and getting toknow each other, we talked
about our past and everythinglike that, and you, in this
incredible way, reminded me thatno, I'm not a failure.
I actually do have worth andvalue.
(18:04):
And you helped me change thestory.
You helped me take a step backand recognize that, no, that
failure was something that Icould carry with me as education
, and within six months of thisbig event happening, where I
(18:25):
swore I'd never and I believed astory that I'm this terrible
guy, this terrible failure, I'mnot going to do this Guess what.
I started another business withyou, but you helped me change my
story.
You helped me recognize thatthe story I was telling myself
wasn't real, and if that hadn'thappened, we might not be
sitting here, because now we'rewhat?
Four businesses, maybe evenfive since then, I don't know,
(18:47):
and it's completely different.
And so that's what I thinkhappens to a lot of people is
they have an incident that youmight not have as big
spectacular failure, but itcould be as something as much as
a mentor or somebody yourespect goes.
I don to a lot of people isthey have an incident that you
might not have as bigspectacular failure, but it
could be as something as much asa mentor or somebody you
respect goes.
I don't really like this, Idon't think you're cut out for
that and you believe that forthe rest of your life, yeah and
you know what.
(19:07):
It's not true.
It's that person's opinion inthat moment.
But that doesn't mean that youshouldn't proceed forward.
But you believe and buy intothat story for the rest of your
life.
You changed my story and nowhere we are.
Valerie (19:21):
It is really incredible when you think of it in that
way, because I think at somepoint it becomes subconscious
and something may happen.
And then you just somebody sayssomething and you do, you just
adopt that as the truth and itjust becomes part of your psyche
, like these stories we'resaying, just even overall with
(19:42):
artists and creatives oh, theydon't make good business people.
Where did that come from?
Who even said that?
And maybe there are thingspopping in your head right now
of stories.
Maybe it needs anotherexamination.
Mak (19:55):
It absolutely needs another examination.
It's not a maybe for me.
Me, I think.
If you're listening right nowyou, you are.
You have a couple stories youalready is kind of pinging in
your head right now.
I think you need to re-examinethose stories.
We all have them, even now.
Even the most successful peoplein the world have these stories
that they're still overcomingand that they're still thinking
about.
And you and the topic of thisis creative people make great
(20:18):
business owners.
Valerie (20:19):
Yes, that's the point we want to get across.
Mak (20:21):
They make great entrepreneurs you are actually.
I think creatives are bettersuited to be entrepreneurs and
business owners than anybodyelse.
And you know what?
I'd be willing to bet that thefirst person that said creatives
shouldn't be entrepreneurs wasprobably an accountant or
something who was trying to selltheir service to creatives it
(20:41):
probably started that's how alot of this stuff starts.
It's just some marketingmessage and then it just becomes
the meme.
Valerie (20:47):
Yeah, because it's not true, we're running artists
through a program right nowcalled the peaceful artpreneur.
Um, we've been working with afantastic group of artists and
this is the first thing we saidto them on the first day is
artists make the best business,people the best.
Let's get this story out of ourhead.
(21:08):
And why?
Why would an artist make thebest business person?
Well, think about it.
Art, what, what you have to doto create something from nothing
.
You're taking a risk there.
You're taking vulnerability.
There you are getting messy,the willingness to do something
(21:31):
messy, to pivot when you need to, and you're not so focused on
that outcome.
You're there in the process.
You're making things work.
You're playing.
Mak (21:42):
You have to be Same thing for business.
You have to be in the process.
And if you're an artist, everysingle time you start with a
blank page, a blank canvas, andyou have to build something
beautiful.
You bring something that didn'texist previously, something
beautiful, something authentic,something real into the world.
(22:04):
But you don't just snap yourfingers and it shows up.
The process of actuallycreating that art.
Whether it's visual musicsculpture, I don't care what it
is, it is what Val said.
It's visual music sculpture, Idon't care what it is, it is
what Val said, it's messy, ittakes time and you have to focus
on solving a million problems.
Every stroke of the brush,every tap of the chisel, every
(22:30):
pluck of the string, you aresolving a problem.
That takes you to the nextproblem and then you solve that
problem and then it takes you tothe next problem and then you
solve that problem and then ittakes you to the next problem.
Sometimes it doesn't work.
So you got a back pedal and yougot a reef configure and you got
to work forward, especially invisual art.
You know you get the whole waydone.
You know, like pam beasley fromthe office says she's like oh,
(22:51):
whenever I mess up.
I just paint a bush over it,she goes.
So I stopped respectingpaintings with a bunch of bushes
, so but but the truth is it'slike you have to create.
You can't just paint a bushover it, you have to solve the
problem and that's all.
That's all owning a business isis is you are creating, you're
bringing something into theworld, You're bringing beauty
(23:13):
into the world by solving aproblem for somebody else, and
it's made up of nothing but aseries of small problems that
you have to continue to solve,but it fills you up so much
creatively to solve thoseproblems, and that's what makes
a business.
Valerie (23:24):
And, just like artists who focus solely on that outcome
, they're not going to be happyin their art practice.
That is so much of thesuffering of an artist, which
there are a ton of artistssuffering and who are blocked
because they are not approachingtheir art from the lens of
creativity.
(23:44):
And this was another hugeepiphany of why we even want to
do this podcast, because youthink you hear the word artist,
artist and I think people havethis view of, oh yeah, artists
flitting around and there arebutterflies everywhere, but
meanwhile, how many artists whoare suffering?
(24:07):
They are suffering and they'resuffering for their art and
they're miserable and they'rehard on themselves and this
thing that the world is sayingis frivolous feels so tied to
their identity and they don'tfeel good enough and they feel
like imposters and they feellike if only I could just get it
right.
And it brings up all of thisangst.
(24:28):
It's like such a minefield.
There are so many artists whoare not operating in their
creativity.
I was one of them for many, manyyears.
It had to be the good outcome.
I was angsty, my identity wasso tied to what I produced and
(24:49):
how well what I produced wasreceived.
That is such a difficult way tolive and that's not the most
effective way to live.
We somehow think that if wehold so tightly to the outcomes,
that that's going to give usthe result that we want, that if
we control it, then we're goingto get the better outcome.
(25:12):
But, as we see examples of inso many other areas of life,
that control is is the problem.
The control stifles the flow.
It stifles flow state it's.
It stifles what is is beautifuland spontaneous spontaneous
spontaneous and magical that canhappen.
(25:36):
So I I in my membership and whenI work with artists a huge
thing that I do is help artiststap back into their creativity,
where they have the freedom andthe confidence and the self-love
(25:56):
honestly, because it takes agreat deal of self-love to allow
yourself to do it badly andmake a mess.
That is my goal is to getartists from this place of
operating, from their creativity, so that they can make a mess.
Wait in the mess, they can makesomething bad, make a painting
(26:18):
that goes in the trash and knowthat that was time well spent.
It goes on the compost pile.
How can we follow the littlepings, the little whispers, the
little nudges and let that partof our souls open up, go louder
into the whispers and silencethe part that's saying sit down,
(26:39):
you're not good.
Mak (26:41):
And that's where fear plays into.
All of this is because we don'twant to do that publicly.
Everyone is afraid to step outand put that on display for the
world.
And when you're talking aboutyou know, in the case of
starting a business, people aregoing to see it.
But this is where my favoritephrase, nobody cares comes in.
(27:02):
Because nobody cares People.
They're paying attention for abrief moment in time, maybe 10,
maybe 15 seconds and then theymove on to the next thing in
their life.
And it's because you do thattoo.
You hear something oh, such andsuch is starting a business.
Oh, wow, that's interesting.
I never knew they were intothis or that.
Or I think they're going to dogreat, or I don't think they're
(27:23):
going to do well at all.
And then you move on and yousay what was the score of the
game this weekend?
What time do I have to pick upthe kids?
What are we having for dinner?
And that's it.
It was literally five seconds.
And that big event where I hadmy big public spectacular
failure, however many years ago,was now how many people are
still talking about that eventto this day?
(27:44):
Nobody.
And they weren't talking aboutit a week after it happened
right and and so.
So my point here is we'reafraid to be messy in front of
people.
Yeah, and that's what owning abusiness is.
It's being a little messy infront of people because it may
not work, and that's okay,because you can always pivot,
(28:06):
you can always change, change.
But what keeps you stuck, whatkeeps you from moving forward
and understanding that yourcreativity is the most powerful
thing about you being a businessowner or starting a business,
is being able to be messy infront of other people.
Valerie (28:23):
Yeah, people are thinking about themselves.
That's it.
They think about themselves,and we all do it too.
So people aren't thinking aboutyou the way that they think
about themselves, and we all, weall do it too.
so people aren't thinking aboutyou the way that you think about
you oh yeah and your ownself-consciousness, for sure,
and what I was saying withartists and helping them tap
into that actual realm ofcreativity that is a superpower
(28:46):
and that becomes an a microcosmfor all other areas of life.
I firmly believe that when youget into an art practice or a
creative practice where you areoperating from that place of
curiosity, wonder, beauty,following those whispers,
letting it be messy, not tied tothe outcome, you're loving your
(29:06):
life in the moment.
You're getting into flow state,and did you know that that is
the happiest we can be?
Studies have found that when weare lost in flow state, we
think that maybe we want to cometo a place of calm, but that's
not where we're the happiest,because we hit that and we want
to be challenged.
(29:27):
We want to go into flow stateas human beings.
That's where we're the happiest.
I think that's a really coolthing.
But those skills, when you canlearn to operate from the lens
of creativity, that is asuperpower in life.
But in business, and I firmlybelieve, we firmly believe that
(29:49):
more creatives should be inbusiness, because that way of
doing business, just like thatway of creating something, is
more effective.
It's way more effective whenyou're in flow state and when
you are just getting messythrough it.
That's how we get discoveries,that's how we get uniqueness,
that's how you tap into thatpart of you that speaks to you.
(30:12):
It's the same thing withbusiness.
When you are willing to nothold so tightly to the outcome
that, if people don't love itright away, if you're not tied
to I need this to work, you arejust in it for the process of
building and creating.
That is a superpower inbusiness.
Mak (30:34):
And when Val says process of creating and building, that
is the process of creativeproblem solving, because that's
all that it is and that's whyyou should be good at it.
Because you're a creative, youcan come up with creative
solutions to anything.
And Rory Sutherland, who I havejust, I've just really like
I've fallen in love with thatguy we should interview him on
the podcast.
His whole philosophy is thatcreatives are better set up for
(31:01):
success in business and problemsolving than the traditional
scientific thinkers of the world.
And his philosophy is this, theopposite of a good solution I
think I'm saying it right is isanother good solution.
So so the point is, throughoutlife and what we've all been
(31:24):
taught and educated, and nowkind of what the general
consensus is in the corporateworld, is that there's one way
to solve a problem and you haveto figure out that one way
scientists effective right andscientists and thinkers, they,
they try to find that one way.
Oh, we figured out how to solveand that is now the only way to
solve that problem.
But a creative person the onewho might be a little, a little
(31:47):
crazy usually has a multitude ofways to solve the problem that
don't seem logical or make sense.
And one of my favorite examplesof this is a Rory Sutherland
example where he's talking abouthe I think it was a client of
his they had this big buildingand everyone was complaining
(32:08):
about how slow the elevatorswere in the building.
So the people who own thebuilding were about to invest I
don't know $10 million toupgrade all the elevators.
And Rory Sutherland came in andI might be butchering the
details of the story, so, butanyway, you get the gist.
Rory Sutherland came in andsaid I can solve this for $1,000
.
And they all puzzled, sayingsaying what do you mean?
(32:31):
And he said put mirrors next tothe elevator doors on each
floor.
And they did that and poof,everyone stopped complaining.
Everybody stopped complainingbecause they had something to
look at while they were waitingfor the elevator to come.
That wasn't their phone.
They're checking themselves outin the mirror.
They're looking at the mirror.
And so what a great solution.
(32:56):
So the automatic place that thethinking minds go is well, we've
got to speed up the elevators.
But the truth is no.
We have to look at all of thethings that are actually taking
place in that moment and whatare creative ways to solve the
real problem at the root ofthese things?
And that's why creatives aregreat, because creatives it's
(33:18):
like.
It's like, you know.
Another, another example of isis like is these trains in the
uk.
You know they wanted to shave20 minutes off the trip and he
said you should give thatsolution to disney and let them
solve that problem, because theywould come up with a thousand
really creative ways to solvethe problem of, of of the the
(33:39):
train trip and get morepleasurable versus shaving the
time off exactly all of thedifferent ways you can and.
And his point there was theyspent like $3 billion to take 22
minutes off this train trip.
$3 billion and he said, for atenth of that we could have
(33:59):
hired every male and femalemodel in the UK to walk up and
down the train during serviceand hand out free shots of
Petrus, and people would haveasked you to slow the train down
, he's like, because because theconcept there was that people
wanted to be wanted to get homefaster, he's like.
But no, actually, people don'tmind it taking a long time to
(34:22):
get home, as long as they'recomfortable or they're happy or
whatever.
And so that, see, and that's acreative solution versus the
scientific solution.
Valerie (34:30):
It's a linear black and white type of a solution, and
so you're listening here.
Mak (34:34):
You're creative.
That's why you would make agreat business owner, because
there are way more ways to solveproblems than just the typical
like Val said black and white,scientific solution, and that's
why creatives make greatbusiness owners.
Valerie (34:50):
I think the other reason why artists and creatives
make amazing business owners isbecause they are attuned to
what is below the surface, evenwith other human beings.
Artists in particular arethinking about feelings.
They're selling energy, theyare creating something, they're
creating emotion that is soconnective to other human beings
(35:16):
.
And if you think about business, it's people, it's other people
connecting with other peopleand with solutions and with
things that are going to maketheir lives better.
That is a huge superpower of anartist and a creative to be
(35:36):
able to tap into those places,those feelings, those emotions,
to relate to other people inbusiness.
So much of business is aboutempathy.
It's having the empathy foryour customers and their needs
and what they want and whatthey're looking for.
And when you are somebodyattuned to those things, you're
(36:00):
not just looking at things interms of black and white.
You are thinking below thatsurface in order to build these
experiences and build thesebrands that really connect on an
empathetic level, on a humanlevel.
There is so much said for thatand we could go on and on, just
(36:21):
about the topic of branding, howthe power is in the story again
, of the brand and how it makessomebody else feel.
Creatives have such a cool wayof telling stories we can.
I'm even.
I'm thinking about um, I don'tknow why, this just popped in my
(36:43):
head, but you know, in thelittle mermaid and she has a
fork and she's like it's adinglehopper or whatever.
Mak (36:49):
A thingamabob.
A thingamabob, I likedinglehopper though.
Valerie (36:52):
That's what creatives do, though.
We take these things and we'relike, hey, look at this really
cool thing, and as a creative,you are showing everybody the
way that you see the world, andif you see it in this really
magical, interesting way haveyou ever thought of this?
Then we bring people along intothat, and that's what brand
(37:15):
building is.
That's what it brings life andjoy and color to other people's
lives.
When we are selling beauty andmaking that invitation to
experience beauty in those ways.
Mak (37:29):
So look, if you're creative and you've been telling
yourself the story for such along time, I can't start a
business, or I shouldn't sell myart, or I shouldn't do this or
shouldn't do that.
I'm not good at this Because I'mnot good at this, or I need to
talk to my brother-in-law, who'san attorney, or whatever.
Forget all that.
You're ready to go yourbrother-in-law, who's the
(37:52):
attorney.
He needs to talk to you becauseyou'll probably have some
creative ways to help him out ofsome pickles that he's dealing
with for his clients.
And if you are owning abusiness right now and you
constantly rely on some of yourexecutives to solve some
problems, maybe, maybe talk tothe, maybe talk to the people
that are a little left to centerin your marketing department
about solving some biggerfinancial issues within your
company or whatever things youmight be facing, because I'm
(38:18):
sick of creatives not gettingthe respect that they deserve,
because creatives are the oneswho make the world go round it
is-, look at Walt DisneyLiterally the Steve Jobs the
creatives and it's like are theones who, like make the world go
round it is.
It is Walt Disney, literallyjobs, the creatives and and it's
like I almost feel likeeverybody else who you know, I,
you know I I hate to be a guywho's like pitting one side
against another, so I'm liketrying to dance around this, but
(38:41):
like the, the executives, whoare all like all the financial
and we have to be all seriousand all this stuff, it's like
the whole reason that you areexisting, being serious, is so
that you can go somewhere wherea creative has set up an
environment for you to enjoyyourself, like a restaurant, a
vacation, a movie, a Broadwayshow, whatever the case is.
But then people like that tendto be so down on creative people
(39:04):
and it's like but you're livingto go experience what the
creatives create.
Valerie (39:08):
It's the Robin Williams in the Dead Poets Society that
engineers and these things thatwe need, and this is the thing
we need all types of people inthis world.
That is what makes the world goaround and we need everybody.
And the quote is it's one of myfavorite quotes that we need
the engineers and and thingsbecause that sustain lives.
(39:30):
It sustains life, but it's thepoets, it's the creatives, it's
the artists that make life worthliving and I want to say this
too.
Mak (39:39):
I need to get this out because of what I just said and
I'm not backpedaling, I I stillmean what I just said, but I
believe that the people who areof the science mind and I think
you're creative too, I think, ifyou're an accountant or an
attorney- or a.
CEO or whatever.
You have creativity within youand you are doing something
creative.
So, like, dig into that alittle bit.
(40:03):
Maybe there's a story goingaround in your head that you
have.
You have a new way of doingaccounting that you have just
never tried because you'reafraid of what your peers will
think, or whatever.
Lean into that, because I dobelieve that every single human
being on the planet is creative.
But in this world whereeverybody has been put into
boxes, I don't appreciate howthe creatives are the ones who
(40:24):
kind of get the short end of thestick from the people in the
other box, because, guess what?
There are no boxes.
We're all creative and weshould all be supporting each
other.
Valerie (40:34):
Yeah, and this isn't to say, too, that you have to
create a business as a creativeand an artist, but I do feel
like there are a lot of peoplewho would dream of that, but
they've been told no, that's notfor you, or no, you're not cut
out to do that.
We make things so much harderthan they have to be because we
(40:55):
hear these things like the wordbusiness, and then, all of a
sudden, you are having fun withyour art and with your
creativity and your creativeoutlet.
However, you do that, and thenyou hear the word business and
it's like a voiceover comes overbusiness and you have to put on
the suit and get really, really, really serious and what we're
(41:17):
saying is no, no, you don't.
You get to still be creative inbusiness and, in fact, that's
going to help you create abetter business, a more
effective business.
So if that is a story that isgoing on in your head, we just
want to squash that story.
And what if?
What would open up to you ifyou didn't have that story?
What if you said, well, maybethis is for me, maybe just
(41:41):
because I haven't done it beforedoesn't mean that I'm not good
at it.
Mak (41:45):
And look, I see it.
I see it all the time with my,with my personal business
clients.
My favorite thing about being abusiness coach is the moment,
usually when the first call,where I help my clients realize
they've been living a storybecause they're frustrated with
their business or things aren'tgoing the way they want, and I
help them realize, oh, youstarted this business because
(42:09):
you're creative and you weresolving a problem that you
really wanted to solve to helpother people, and it's like that
spark goes off and you see themrelax.
It's like they're intense andthen 20 minutes into the call,
they're relaxed, they'relaughing, they're talking about
why they love what they do andthey're passionate about it
again and I'm going yes, this isit, and that's what I love to
(42:32):
do is help people who've gottencaught in all the stories that
are you have to run yourbusiness like this and you have
to do this and you have to dothis.
You have to have a business plan, you have to have a payroll
thing and you have to do this,and you have to do accounting
like this and you have to dothis.
And they tell themselves I haveto have all these things in
(42:55):
line, they have to be perfectand I come in and I go, no,
let's get back to the creativeperson who wanted to start this
business to begin with.
And it's like when all thatstuff melts away, there's like
I'm like looking at a childwho's walking into Disney World
for the first time and it is themost beautiful thing in the
world and that's what I loveabout what I do and what we're
doing with your peacefulentrepreneur and what the
(43:15):
purpose of this podcast is andwhy I'm so lit up, because I
just everybody has that.
You have that in you right now.
Please examine those stories.
Valerie (43:25):
I just thought about.
We live in Nashville and we fora while we were going to 12
South and there's Bar Taco there.
It's really good.
We would go there and we wouldwalk down 12 South and on one
instance there was a girl therewho was selling bracelets that
(43:45):
she made on the side of thestreet on 12 South.
Mak (43:49):
You have to say this we had , we had our family with us yes
and this is the little girl shewas maybe eight, nine, ten I
would say like ten yes,somewhere in that neighborhood
somewhere in that neighborhoodbut by herself.
Valerie (44:00):
It at least appeared that way it appeared that way,
but then you do see parents setup on their lawn chairs like a
little bit far off, but they hadto be like 20 feet away, or she
was really cute so she set upwith these bracelets that she
made and they say all kinds ofthings and there were like
taylor, swift things andbachelorette things and national
things and cowgirl, thing, allthis stuff charms really cute
(44:21):
little bracelets.
Um, vienna, of course, instantlywanted one.
We wanted to support her.
We bought these bracelets.
So we saw her the one time andwe're like, oh, that's cool.
And then we went again, we sawher again and, mac, you struck
up a conversation with her dadyes and he told you she's making
(44:43):
real money like legit moneyfrom these bracelets I think her
, I think he said her best monthwas like A couple thousand
dollars a weekend.
Mak (44:51):
Yeah, her best weekend was like 2,000 bucks or something In
these little plastic bracelets.
Valerie (44:55):
These bracelets.
Mak (44:56):
And he goes and she's only here for like two hours or three
hours.
Valerie (45:01):
Let that be a story to everybody.
We complicate things, we makeit so hard, we make the barrier
to entry so huge in our mindsand it feels like this
unscalable wall and we're notcut out for it and we're artists
(45:21):
and all of this.
I want you to think about thatlittle girl on the side of the
street making real money, doingwhat she loves, going to school.
Still, she's a child, yeah,she's in middle school or
elementary school.
These bracelets and saying Imade this, here is my offering
(45:42):
of that.
It's X amount of dollars.
Do you want to buy it and havethis exchange, yes or no?
And and what?
Mak (45:50):
that is business and what's great is she's in this age and
I because this is, this is story, this is brand she's in this
age where you go and you see thebracelets and they're they.
Obviously she's not just makingthese things in like five
seconds, they're taking time andshe's selling them, I don't
know, for a buck, two, two buckstwo bucks a piece and everybody
(46:13):
there's like, oh, oh, darling,here, just take a 10, take a 20,
take it what?
because she's got this greatlittle stand, she's a little
smile, she's so friendly andit's just like the story is
there and you just like I wantto support this little girl, yes
, and so that's how she's makingall this money.
It's like people are giving her10 times what she's asking and
(46:35):
a super cute product and youknow, I know, oh yeah, she's a
kid mac.
Yeah, but this.
But what happens is when youget in the story and you get in
the vibe and you're, and you'reauthentic and you're lit up,
that's what people will give you10 times what you're asking.
I don't care if you're eight or80, it will happen.
Valerie (46:51):
Yeah, if you connect on again that level, you are being
true to you and authentic toyou.
You have that, that piece ofyour heart that you just want to
share and just want to put outthere.
That's the stuff that becomesmagnetized, that's the stuff
that people were like, um, I'llhave what she's having, you know
.
So we overcomplicate it and wemake all of these things and
(47:15):
really it boils down to that you, in your creativity, doing
something that you love, makingan invitation to other people if
they want to experience and bein this with you.
And we can go more intobusiness, which we will, but
just for today, the biggesttakeaway here is it's not that
(47:38):
hard One.
If you are having this storythat it's hard, you're not cut
out for it.
I'm an artist.
Therefore, I'm not a goodbusiness person.
We want you to re-examine thatstory, because it could be
holding you back.
And when you start to letyourself dream without a story,
what's there?
Is there a desire that wells up?
(47:58):
Is there something that feelslike oh, I never thought that
was for me, but maybe it couldbe for me.
Let yourself go there, letyourself go into those what if?
Questions.
I tell my students that all thetime.
Art mirrors life, it'smicrocosm.
And I will say to them, whenyou are in the painting process,
your number one question iswhat if?
(48:19):
If you're asking what ifquestions, you're doing it right
, you're going down the rightpath.
What if I add this?
What if I try this?
What if this would happen?
What if this, following thosewhat ifs?
You do the same thing for yourbusiness, for your life, you
open up.
That's opening up to curiosity,and you will be surprised what
(48:40):
happens when you just ask thequestion.
Your brain likes to solveproblems.
When we give it a question, itwill search for things to fill
that with.
So start asking some what if?
Questions.
If this is speaking to you, andoften if you do have a story
that maybe this something cameup in the course of us talking,
(49:03):
where you're like oh yeah, mymiddle school art teacher told
me that I wasn't very good.
Or my college professor saidyou know, you need to really
think about doing something else.
Or, who knows, whateversomebody said.
If you're thinking about that,maybe turn that into a what if
question.
What if they were wrong?
What if I'm not bad at music?
(49:25):
What if I?
My dad?
He's told this story.
He's 70 years old and he willsay the exact teacher, the name
of the teacher in middle schoolthat told him he had a tin ear.
To this day, he says that thesestories run deep.
And what if that just wasn'ttrue?
So what if questions are goingto be your best friend?
(49:48):
We really hope that this openedup something for you today.
Thank you so much for listening.
We just are continuing to beblown away by your downloads, by
your messages.
Thank you so so much.
I'm Valerie McKeon on Instagramat Valerie McKeon.
Mac is at that.
Mac guy Mac is M-A-K.
(50:09):
We love hearing with you.
We love connecting with you.
If you have a moment and thiswas a helpful episode to you we
would be so grateful if youwould share it with a friend who
might need it or if you wouldleave us a review.
Those reviews really, reallyhelp other creatives that feel
like they are in a box find usso that they can also be
(50:31):
unleashed and live unbound.
And who even knows the beautyand the magnificence that is
going to come from creativesbeing unbound?
Mak (50:40):
And if you haven't done it yet, hit the subscribe button
too, because that really helpsalso, and then you'll get
notifications every time weupload a new episode.
So thank you so much for beinghere.
We'll see you really soon, andwe hope you have a great day bye
.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
The Breakfast Club
The World's Most Dangerous Morning Show, The Breakfast Club, With DJ Envy, Jess Hilarious, And Charlamagne Tha God!