May 19, 2025 • 52 mins
You’ve likely believed this lie without even realizing it, and it’s keeping you stuck. In this episode, we’re exposing the narrative that’s been holding creatives back for generations and replacing it with something far more powerful.
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@valeriemckeehan & @thatmakguy (that’s Mak with a K!)
Keep creating bravely. We’re so glad you’re here.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Mak (00:08):
so we took a week off to go to the beach and we said we
were gonna record when we gotback so that we could stay on
track.
But then we decided to stay anextra day at the beach and
therefore we're.
We took a week off, but we'reback now we're back.
Valerie (00:26):
We're excited to be back continuing our conversation
, that we've been having so manyof these conversations while we
were away and then continuingto come back and we're always
saying we need to record this,we need to make it a podcast,
just our normal conversations.
So that's what we hope to do inthis podcast Just bring you
along into the conversationsthat we have.
(00:49):
And it's so funny becausesometimes we will literally be
in the middle of just our normaleveryday conversation and we'll
go stop, don't say any don'tsay any more because we want to
have this conversation on thepodcast and this topic that
we're going to be talking abouttoday.
That's what happened.
Mak (01:09):
And I think this topic for today is something that you and
I talk about nonstop.
I feel like this is sort of thecrux of a lot of what we're
doing and everything that isdriving us forward.
Valerie (01:26):
It's a big part of it.
It is by the way, this is theUnbound Creative Podcast.
Mak (01:31):
Welcome.
Valerie (01:32):
And I'm Valerie.
Mak (01:33):
I'm Mac.
We're husband and wife.
We're both creatives.
We both have built largecreative-based businesses, had a
lot of success, had a ton offailure.
Creative based businesses had alot of success, had a ton of
failure and have really landedin this great place where we
want to help creatives and wethink everyone is creative in
one way or another Finally startliving a creative, fulfilling
(01:57):
life and make money doing it.
Valerie (02:00):
And that can look like so many different ways.
I don't want to get off on atangent, but there's so much
that's put on creatives that area linear path.
That makes no sense at all.
It's creative.
So we think that in order to beconsidered living a creative
life, it has to look a certainway and you have to monetize a
(02:22):
certain way.
Or if you're creative, there'sa school of thought that's like
no, you want to keep the art andthe creativity pure and not
monetize it and all of thisstuff.
And we're just the whole pointof being unbound and living
unbound as a creative is thatthere are no rules.
There is a creative life forevery single person.
(02:46):
We firmly believe it and it'snot going to look like anybody
else and it's not going to fitinto these cultural boxes that
that have been laid out for us,like, oh, you want to be a
successful artist, okay, do thisand this and this.
And it's like no, there's somuch more to our creativity and
our humanity, which is literallywhat we create is at the core
(03:10):
of our humanity and expressingthat in the world, and it is so
much bigger and deeper and widerand more expansive than we're
taught that it is.
Mak (03:24):
And God is the ultimate creator.
He created everything and ifwe're made in his image, then
we're made to create, not tolive in this narrow lane of just
work, work, work, work, workall the time.
Valerie (03:38):
And formulaic, and you are wired for it.
It is in your very DNA that youare wired to do this and you
are wired for it, like it is inyour very DNA that you are wired
to do this and you are wired tocreate.
Mak (03:50):
And you don't have to be a visual artist or a musician or a
sculptor or whatever a dancerto be considered creative.
Anyone who has an inspiredthought about something is
creative, so you can be creative.
So so many people out there arecreative but they've never
leaned into it because they'relike oh, I'm not a good painter.
(04:11):
This isn't this.
We're not just talking aboutpeople in the arts.
If you have ever createdanything like a meal plan, you
are creative.
Valerie (04:22):
But in the arts certainly too.
But the point is, when we areliving as mainly consumers, it
is just scientifically proventhat we're unhappy.
We're not living up to ourpurpose.
It is in unlocking yourcreativity and what you can make
(04:43):
and what you can bring to theworld and the beauty that you
can create and materialize thatfills us with purpose and makes
us feel happy.
So that's really whatcreativity is is switching that
mode from being mostly aconsumer to somebody who also
produces beauty in the world.
Mak (05:02):
The opposition of the opposite of depression and
anxiety is actually creativity.
Valerie (05:09):
It's expression.
Mak (05:10):
It is, yeah, creativity, expression, production.
So if you're living in a lifethat feels anchored in those two
things and a lot of people arethe answer scientifically
scientifically is to actuallybegin to create.
But we have been taught as asociety that when we're feeling
that way, you dig deeper intoconsumerism, we sink more into
(05:37):
entertainment, into food, intoall of that kind of thing, when
actually, if you spend time andcreate, it really helps pull you
out of that place.
Valerie (05:47):
Yeah, we live in such a left brain society that it's
almost like we don't trust theright brain thing, so it's
really easy to write thosethings off.
But that's actually holding thekey and the antidote to so much
, so much of our suffering.
Mak (06:06):
So, with that said, we want to talk about what we think is
probably the biggest lieperpetuated upon creatives.
Valerie (06:14):
There are so many.
Mak (06:15):
This is one of them it's.
So it is vast and we'll coveras much as we can in the podcast
in the future.
We also don't want to sit hereand be doing four hour episodes.
We can in the podcast in thefuture.
We also don't want to sit hereand be doing four hour episodes,
but this one, I think, as oftoday, the recording of this
podcast.
Valerie (06:35):
we feel like this is the biggest one, and we just
heard this recently from a fewdifferent people.
Mak (06:40):
We were at a party, a dinner party, and the topic of
creatives and business came upand everyone just blindly agreed
with the idea that if you arecreative, you know in your
artistry and, oh, I can't worrymyself with matters of business.
Valerie (07:09):
It's so deep in so many ways, because not only do we
perpetuate this idea thatartists are bad at business in
the example that I just gaveit's almost like you're supposed
to be it's really really sneakywhere it's like there's this
(07:30):
idea of a real artist andthey're just so flighty and
doing all of this stuff, andthat, by its very nature, means
that you cannot be good atbusiness.
So there's that angle almostlike you're supposed to be bad
at business if you're an artistbut then there's also just the,
(07:51):
the vibe and the feeling thatthat is.
Mak (07:55):
It is just that way well, the idea is that people who are
creative lack some kind offundamental grounding that is
required to be a business person.
Valerie (08:04):
Or organization or discipline.
Mak (08:09):
But all that owning a business is is solving a problem
for somebody else.
That's literally it.
You solve a problem forsomebody else.
They pay you money.
That's a business.
I'm hungry.
I go to a restaurant.
I pay somebody to bring me food.
My house is dirty.
I pay someone to clean thehouse.
I need health insurance.
(08:30):
I pay a company to give mehealth insurance.
No matter how you break it down, I need my taxes done.
I hire a CPA.
They do my taxes.
That's all a business is.
Now, who is best set up tosolve problems creatively in the
world?
Valerie (08:50):
people who are creative but before we even get into
that, I want to just let's,let's say this could it be?
Let's just consider this for asecond, because this was our
conversation earlier, mac.
What if it is this messagingthat we've been telling
everybody, this culturalmessaging that everybody has
(09:13):
just accepted to be true?
What if that is actually thecause?
Like, what if that is actuallyit's not, that it's, it's
telling a factual truth.
What if it's in the story thatwe've been telling everybody
that artists and creatives arebad at business, that that is
(09:37):
actually the catalyst which ismaking them bad at business?
It's kind of like if you tellsomebody, hey, you suck at this,
you're not good, does that makethem bad at it?
I think it does, because it's alabeling thing, it's an identity
thing.
It all comes down to story andwhat we know to be a fact is
(10:02):
that our belief system, ourbeliefs, come first.
The belief and who you arebeing is going to determine the
doing.
So if the belief system is thatyou've just blindly accepted
I'm an artist, therefore I'm badat business, could it have been
(10:23):
in just the story?
Not that it's true.
Mak (10:27):
That's 100% the issue in my opinion, and we have two young
girls and we were even justtalking earlier about how when,
in raising them, there is allthis scientific evidence now to
support the idea that if youtell your kids things when
they're young, they will carrythat with them their entire
(10:48):
lives.
So if you say things like oh,money doesn't grow on cheese and
you've got to work hard to makemoney, and all of these things,
they'll go through their livesthinking that and that will
actually become ingrained andthey will make making money
harder.
They will look at money withthis different, this different
perspective.
It's the same way if you sayyou know, santa Claus is, you
(11:09):
know, is real, and he comes andbrings presents every December
24th.
They believe that and theycarry that with them.
It's the same concept here isthat we believe a story we're
told and you probably, if you'rethinking about it right now,
you may have had a teacher or aparent or somebody you looked up
to, a mentor or something atsome point in your life who told
(11:29):
you you know what this isn'tfor you.
You might have something youlove to do, but they said, ah,
you're just not good at this,because my dad has a story like
that.
He was told he has a tin earand so he never tried to pursue
singing.
Your dad actually has a verysimilar story, and what happened
was they just believed it andso it was taken off the table.
(11:51):
Because we believe the storiesand, you know, frankly, I think
therapy has exploded in the last15 years because of the
awareness that the conditioningthat was brought upon us as kids
, millennials as kids, and soforth, led us to have all kinds
of problems in the future, andnow we're trying to undo all
(12:13):
that.
This is a similar situation.
Valerie (12:17):
Well, the fact that in children which is a great
example they are going to liveup to the expectation.
So if you expect them and treatthem like they're a bad kid,
they're often going to become abad kid, like that's what's
expected of them.
So we're very intentional ofhow we speak to our daughters.
(12:39):
Say you are a kind person, youare creative, you can figure out
this problem, you are capable.
We're constantly saying that toour girls because that belief
in them is going to shape theirbelief in themselves.
Mak (12:55):
Well, we see it now with them.
Already Our youngest, ourtwo-year-old.
For a long time, for about sixmonths, she would try to do
something undo a zipper, open adrawer, take a lid off a basket,
something like that and she'dsay I can't do it, I can't do it
.
And never once did we step inand do it for her.
We say, yes, you can, you canfigure it out.
And she'd go, okay, and itmight take her a couple of tries
(13:18):
, but she would figure it out.
And now she never says that,she never says I can't do it,
she's figuring things out on herown.
And but this is notbraggadocious, this is just like
we're not geniuses here.
This is just the way it works.
And so we as adults have torecognize that we, we have the
(13:38):
same problems.
So if we're hearing all thetime from society that that as a
creative, you're going to bestarving and poor and suffering
for your art and you're no goodat business and you shouldn't
try because you're all of thesethings, then of course you're
not going to live into that.
(13:58):
Now there are always outliers.
There are people who actuallyget motivated by that negative
reinforcement and go I'm goingto show you that I can, and
that's awesome, but that's veryrare compared to just people
living into it.
And I think when COVID hit andeverybody started working from
(14:19):
home, all kinds of stuff startedto change.
People began to realize youknow what this nine to five
thing is kind of a drag, and nowall these companies are having
a hard time getting people tocome back to work.
We saw a massive shift out ofcorporate living and people
(14:39):
starting businesses, beingentrepreneurial, being more
creative, because they got ataste of wait a minute, I can
have a good life doing life theway I want to, rather than what
I've been told my whole life ithas to be School, college, nine
to five, retire, and so there'sthis massive shift taking place
(15:02):
in all of that, and I thinkCOVID was kind of a catalyst,
and so what we're talking aboutis the same, is similar in
concept, where all of a suddenthere was this big awakening no,
I can actually have a life thatI love and work from anywhere,
and and I don't have to be stuckin the confines of a definition
that somebody came up with ahundred years ago I can actually
(15:24):
live the life that I want.
And that's when we saw thegreat.
What did they call it the great?
exodus or a great quitting, or Iforget what it was called.
So when, looking at that asevidence of behavioral change,
when there's a realization thatyou don't have to listen to the
story you've been told this isthis is this is the exact same
(15:48):
thing.
So if you're creative, if youare an artist, if you are a
singer or if you're just someonewho has creative desire but
you've never followed it becauseyou're telling yourself these
subconscious stories on repeatthat you can't, then you never
will.
Valerie (16:05):
Or the fact that I'm creative means that I will be
bad at it, and then it stops youfrom even trying.
It just is like oh okay, I'mcreative, I'm bad at it.
No, I can't go there.
But I want to say, though, Ithink there is a tendency also
in our culture, and it drives mecrazy, that there's a pedestal
(16:27):
put on becoming a full-timeartist or a full-time creative,
and this also drives me insane,because everything I think,
everything that it drives meinsane, honestly, if I am
thinking about it, it's thingsthat are so black and white.
I hate that.
I think that's the whole unboundidea, because it's this other
(16:51):
message that well, it's notvalid unless you're professional
, and unless you're full-timerunning a business, making a
full career's worth of moneyfrom your creativity, then it's
valid.
Mak (17:04):
Or unless you're suffering, your art is bad.
Unless you're suffering, it'snot like you can be having a
really good life where you arehappy in your job that has
nothing to do with creativity,but then you go home at night
and you create things.
Well, that doesn't countbecause you're not suffering for
your art.
Valerie (17:22):
Or going after it being your career, then somehow, why
are you doing it if you're notdoing it for your career?
Mak (17:29):
So this is OK.
So, and I can't, I think I'vegot this fact right, so nobody
fact check me on this but Ithink it's the CEO of Chase Bank
or JP Morgan.
I think yeah, that's the sameJP Morgan Chase.
I want to say it's JP MorganChase, it's, but it's that that
(17:49):
guy who knows what his salary isand all that stuff, and he's
the head of the one, the biggestbank in the world, or one of
the largest banks in the world.
But on the weekends he's thislike EMD DJ who's out in
flip-flops and shorts spinningfor like all generation z and
whatever in the clubs and allthis stuff, and they love this
guy.
But during the week he's in asuit running the biggest bank in
(18:11):
the world and he's supercreative.
The music he's making that he'sinventing, he's not just
spinning it like he's writingtracks and all this is amazing.
But that's, that's OK, it's onein the same, it's one of the
same.
Valerie (18:25):
He needs that creative skill for his job Correct, and
that's the point that we'retrying to make here.
Mak (18:32):
Well, hold on, hold on.
That seems very ambiguous whatyou just said.
You have to explain that.
Valerie (18:36):
Yeah.
Mak (18:37):
Why does he need that for his job?
To do well, Well.
Valerie (18:40):
Google.
It was just Google that cameout with the two top skills they
have in their employees.
What would you think that itwould be?
The two skills that are, like,indispensable, like they have to
have these skills, it'screativity and empathy Makes
(19:01):
total sense.
So why, in one breath, are wetaking the creatives and the
artists and telling them you arebad at the thing that,
literally you.
Mak (19:13):
Google once, google once because, artists are empathetic.
Valerie (19:19):
Oh my goodness, we're feelers, we are intuitive, we
are.
Mak (19:24):
That's what it's.
That's what it's all about.
We are.
That's what it's all about, andthat's, and so and like the
other thing that happens whereartists and creatives get the
shaft is okay, so they buy intothe story and they're suffering
for their art.
Okay, they're living this lowlife but they're creating all
(19:46):
the time because they can't makemoney and they can't be in
business or whatever.
But then they get discoveredand they take off and they start
and they're huge.
And then what does everybody do?
They sold out, they sold out.
So you have to suffer.
But if you stop suffering, thenyou're also a jerk.
(20:06):
You're also.
You can't make it.
So like we put, listen to, like.
This is the point here is and Idon't want us to get too too,
too heady, but you're kind of,you're kind of screwed either
way, but it's still a box.
Valerie (20:22):
It's still a box.
It's like the institutions thatwe have put in place.
Box.
It's like the institutions thatwe have put in place.
And I think a lot of artistsand creatives they see the
institution and they're likethat's the only way.
Yeah, like I have to play thegame of this institution, but
meanwhile there's such a bigworld, there's so much
(20:43):
opportunity that it might lookdifferently.
And so it goes back to our pointof your creative life can be
fulfilling and life-giving andperfect for you without choosing
these black and whitenarratives in order to make it
valid.
And I see this a lot too in ourmembership community and magic
(21:05):
makers.
We have doctors that are partof it and and so many people who
have their professional jobsand their careers where they are
professionals and they love itand they love being doctors.
But they're like, look, this issomething that fills me up and
makes my life so much better andit has a ton.
(21:28):
I can't emphasize enough thevalidity of that in and of
itself for your own healing, foryour own health, for the own
way that you show up in theworld, your wonder, your
curiosity, your play, your joy,your delight, on and on and on,
literally scientifically backed,that the arts and creativity
heal us and that has such aweight to it in and of itself.
(21:53):
And it's not a either or it's aboth and Like why can't somebody
say this is a perfectlyvaluable, even if you're not
getting paid for it, path?
But for those who want to getpaid for it and be in the
professional sphere of acreative life, guess what you
(22:14):
get to have that too, it gets tobe a both, and both valuable,
both valid, both legitimate.
But we're illegitimizing bothavenues and then giving people
the lie that, on one hand, oh,not important, not worth it, you
better get serious.
And then, on the other hand,when they do quote unquote get
(22:37):
serious which I hate, thatthat's a whole other thing.
Then when they do get serious,they're being told but you're
not good at it, get serious,make money from this, make it
full time, but you suck.
How do you?
Mak (22:50):
what do you do with that?
And I want to.
I want to go back to the point,too, about, like you were
saying, we have doctors andstuff and magic makers, which is
which is super cool, attorneysI mean people from all walks of
life.
And here's the thing, and thisis what I want to be so freeing
for you.
I don't want you to ever comeaway from our podcast thinking
that our whole goal is foreverybody to make money being
(23:11):
creative, or we would just bepart of the problem.
But our goal is to point outthat creativity is more than
likely the most rewarding,fulfilling, freeing response to
the stress of your life.
So if a doctor, let's say adoctor, is a brain surgeon,
there they have a 20 hoursurgery and they're so good at
(23:32):
what they do, there's nothingwrong with coming home then and
painting a watercolor where mostpeople would say, oh, go get a
massage, watch some Netflix orwhatever.
And again, nothing wrong withthose things.
We're not anti that stuff.
But what most people don't wantto try is the creative piece,
because somewhere along the linethey were told not to, or it
(23:53):
seems frivolous and it seemsstupid or childish.
It's often labeled as childish,which we hate, because when we
were all kids, we were freethinkers and we didn't have all
of the stress of worrying aboutwhat other people think of us
and all this stuff.
And we just created and wecreated and we created.
(24:13):
Every child in kindergarten isa creative genius.
What happens to those people?
So the point is, like yourresponse to what's going on in
your life.
You can have that balance.
You can have a really greatcareer and then go paint on the
weekends or at night, or you canlove painting so much at night
that you start saying you knowwhat I'm going to make money
(24:36):
doing this.
And it doesn't have to be yourcareer, it can just be something
fun that you make money doing.
There are so many differentways, but the point is you have
to create and your creativitymakes you perfect for running a
business.
Valerie (24:51):
Yes, that is what we want everybody to take away from
this that you have agency andchoice here.
How often are we taught thisanalogy too, where it's like
it's the luck of the draw andthat person's so lucky and
almost like the chosen few thatyou know a magic wand came down
(25:15):
and got to them.
But you get to create again whycreativity is so important,
like your greatest creativeaccomplishment ever is going to
be your own life.
And you get to have agency here.
You get to choose and say Iwant to employ these business
skills.
What if I am not bad at this?
(25:37):
What if I've just believed thelie that I'm artistic?
Therefore I should be bad at it?
But what if you would be braveenough to say what if not?
What if I am good at this?
And then you get to choose yourpath and try different things.
Mak (25:52):
Some of the most creative people I know own businesses and
are wildly, wildly successfulbecause they look at solving
problems.
And when you start a businessthere's hundreds of problems
that you have to solve.
It's just constant problemsolving.
But according to RorySutherland, the opposite of a
good idea is a good idea.
(26:13):
And so often the left brainsays there's only one answer to
a solution.
But that's not true.
There's only one answer to aproblem, there's only one
solution to a problem, butthat's not true.
There's actually thousands ofpossible ways to solve a problem
.
But a right brain thinker willbe thinking about all kinds of
(26:33):
creative ways to solve a problem.
And what happens?
If we all just believe what theleft brain said all the time?
Everything would be sterile inthe same.
But if you take an engineersolving a problem and you gave
that same problem to Walt Disney, I'm sure that Walt Disney's
(26:53):
solution would be very exciting.
And it's not that theengineer's solution is wrong,
and it's not that Walt Disney'ssolution is wrong, it's that
you're going to get such vastdifferences.
But we've been trained as asociety for so long saying well,
we got to take the engineer'sapproach because it's a system,
it's a framework, it's this orthat, but but so.
(27:15):
So the point is, business isnothing more than creative
problem solving from day one.
That's it.
You're creative, whether you'repainting or you're writing a
song, you're preparing a meal, Idon't care what it is, you are
just solving one problem afteranother, after another after
another, to get your art outthere, and that's all a business
(27:39):
is.
It's the same exact thing.
So if you are creative and yourmind is scattered because
you're creative and you'reconstantly thinking of all kinds
of things, great.
That's what Google says.
We want creative people becauseit's the creative people who
will come up with the creativesolutions.
Right, and Google hiresthousands of engineers.
(28:00):
But what do they want?
They want creative people andengineers can be creative too,
but they thousands of engineers.
But what do they want?
They want creative people andengineers can be creative too,
but they want creative engineers.
It's that linear thinking thathas really driven this narrative
behind artists and creativityand business into the wrong
mountain.
Valerie (28:19):
Business is not that complicated.
It's actually not that hard it.
Business is not thatcomplicated.
Mak (28:23):
It's actually not that hard .
Valerie (28:24):
It really is not that complicated.
It is solving that.
It's accepting money inexchange of value.
Literally, that is what we aredoing.
We are taking our money, we'reexchanging it for things that we
deem to be valuable and makeour lives better.
(28:46):
And we can think about art inthat way because we hear the
word solving a problem, andsolving a problem can mean
making somebody's life better,where they were in one place and
feeling one way, and then theyexperienced a piece of art and
it changed them.
Therefore, they are exchangingvalue for that piece of art and
(29:07):
we really overcomplicate it.
And yes, of course, when we getinto thinking about taxes,
corporations and when a businessgrows and all of these things,
yes, sure, are there things tolearn, is there a learning curve
?
Are there things that feeluncomfortable, that you don't
know, that you have to figureout and learn and understand?
(29:28):
Yes, of course, but at the veryfundamental part of it we stop
ourselves from even trying,because we think about this like
overly complex workings of,like a major corporation,
without realizing that you canget started at this very basic,
fundamental level.
(29:50):
I mean, think about a yard saleor I mean that is business and
we can write that off and say,oh, that's not for real,
whatever, but it is.
That is what is.
That's what it is.
We overcomplicate things andthen it stops us from even
trying or thinking that we havethe chops for it.
Mak (30:11):
And the thing about all of that stuff look, none of it's
hard, it really isn't.
Valerie (30:21):
That's another story.
It is that it's hard.
It really isn't.
That's another story.
Mak (30:22):
It is that it's hard when you the people who have the most
money tend to find ways to notpay taxes, but they're not
cheating the system.
They look at the tax code andthey find creative ways to avoid
paying taxes within the law.
That's a form of creativity,and this is what.
(30:45):
So my point here is this wherewe would go oh, I could never.
You know, I could never do that.
It's too big.
Oh, I form a corporation.
That's so hard, you needattorneys, it's scary.
It's scary.
No, you don't.
You need 500 bucks and acomputer, that's it.
And if you learn to look atthose types of things all the
(31:06):
big, scary looking stuff aboutbusiness as it's just a process
and you're working your waythrough it and when a bump comes
up, you have the freedom to sitthere and creatively think
through 20 different solutions.
You don't have to take the mostcommon path, you don't have to
do what everybody else has done.
(31:26):
You have the freedom to come upwith something else, like I
have a family member who hasbeen offered lots of money for
their property and I listened tothe negotiations and I've been
like well, have you thoughtabout doing this, have you
thought about doing this?
And it's usually met with anegative no, no, no, we can't.
(31:47):
That's not how it's done.
Why not, like, talk to thepeople?
It's a negotiation.
There's no rule on how it hasto play out.
If you can creatively speakwith someone on how to come up
with a solution that works foreverybody, then it's fine.
It's all.
The point here is it's allcreativity, and you don't have
(32:07):
to think about all of that stuffto get started.
You literally can just go.
You know what?
I'm gonna change my perspectiveand I'm gonna tell myself no, I
am creative, I can come up with.
You probably come up withcreative solutions to problems
all the time.
Look, people who don't have anymoney, starving artists who
have to survive week to week ormonth to month and they're not
(32:28):
sure how they're going to paytheir rent or put food on the
table.
They come up with some prettycreative ways to pay rent and
get food on the table, don'tthey?
This is the same thing, butyou're changing your mindset to.
I don't have to be a starvingartist.
I can be a wealthy artist.
Valerie (32:44):
I can, I can or just asking what if?
Yeah, exactly the question.
What if?
Mak (32:50):
is the most powerful question, and it's but you're
still solving, you're stillsitting there and being creative
.
It's just the frame from whichyou're you're facing the
problems.
Valerie (33:00):
It's the belief it really is coming from the belief
and the story that if it'smaking money from my art then
that has to mean that it's hardor scary or yucky and all of
these things.
Well, I want to give just myown story as an example.
I come from an entrepreneurialfamily, which I'm very, very
(33:20):
blessed to have had that example.
My parents were small businessowners.
They've since retired, but Ihad that example and my dad
would always instill in me thatI have this agency, that I can
do these things.
I don't have to follow thispath.
(33:40):
He would always say to me youcan be anything that you want to
be.
And growing up as a child, whenyou would ask me what do you
want to be when you grow up, Iwould say a CEO.
It was just my response I'mlike a CEO.
And I mean I believed it.
And even in elementary,elementary school some of my
(34:02):
earliest elementary schoolmemories even are of creating
businesses that I would take tomy school and I loved American
Girl magazine and they hadcrafts in there and I would make
the crafts at home.
There was one in particular.
It was like embroidery flosswith a pencil, um, which is
(34:24):
incredibly uh, not not veryproductive because, like, how do
you sharpen it, like when youhave embroidery floss on it?
But still, it was super cuteand I made these pencils and I
took them to school and soldthem at school and I had a few
enterprises like that.
I made a school newspaper thatI brought in and that was in
(34:46):
sixth grade and so I just in themarketing world, advertising
world, before I accidentallyfell into becoming a full-time
(35:08):
artist.
So I really did.
It was a hobby that I was makingchalkboards, putting them on
Etsy.
It really took off and then asthat business grew, I fell for
the crap and I started sayingstuff like that, stuff like that
, like well, I have an artist'sbrain, I don't have a business
brain.
And even we've said this on thepodcast before Mac.
(35:31):
Our dynamic became that and Itotally bought into this story
where I was like no, I'm theartist and the creative.
And if you would meet us ortalk to us, they'll'll be like
oh, it's so cool, you're inbusiness together.
And it's like, yes, I'm theartist side and he's the
business side.
And I was like this sweet like,and then it just dawned on me
(35:55):
I'm like this is BS.
Mak (35:57):
Well, what's funny about that is I've always been very
creative.
I was creative my whole life,built successful businesses too,
but I was always creatingsomething new and exciting and
fun and big and like constantlyit didn't matter what I was.
I was always had a new projectand as soon as we started the,
(36:17):
we went from the agency intothat.
I was like, oh, she's thecreative one, I'm the business
one.
Valerie (36:23):
Yeah, we like ourselves from the agency into that I I
was like, oh, she's the creativeone, I'm the business one.
Yeah, we like put ourselves, weput ourselves in the boxes that
we are now trying to breakeverybody out of, because that
has been now, um, when westarted lily eval in 2012.
So we're going we're like 13years now of doing this and
being in these creative realmsand and it's like we're trying
to bust open the doors of theboxes that we ourselves
(36:47):
experienced.
And it was it just kind ofdawned on me and honestly I'm
going to say, not that long agoreally, in the grand scheme of
things, I carried this story foryears and years and years that
I was not good.
I was not a good businessperson.
I questioned my decisions andyou know what?
It made me shrink, and it madeyou shrink too.
Mak (37:08):
Yeah, I, I, I went the other way.
And it's funny cause I just hada call with a, with a really
good friend from back inPittsburgh this week.
We were on zoom together.
We spent an hour just catchingup and about 40 minutes into the
call he said so I know you, youguys, are doing all this stuff.
He goes, but what are youspecifically doing for your
creative outlet right now?
(37:28):
And he called me out and I waslike, well, I have a couple
things cooking, but I'm notreally doing.
And he's like, when are yougoing to start?
You need a creative outletbecause I have bought into the
same, I've bought into the sameidea and it's taken me time.
Here I am on the podcastlecturing people, but at the
(37:51):
same time I'm just as I'm asmuch guilty of it as anybody
else where I was like, no, I'mthe, I'm the business person and
I just don't really enjoy beinga business person a whole lot,
but I'm pretty good at itbecause I'm creative.
Valerie (38:06):
But that's another story, that it's hard, Like even
now I'm going to like call youout here that that's another
story.
That business is hard but it'slike shifting that mindset of
like what if it does get to becreative?
What if it like yeah, we're notgoing to enjoy anything 100%.
But I think the part that makesit hard and why you're saying
(38:27):
that so I'm not fully callingyou out, but I think what makes
it hard is the box, when you'relooking at it from the
perspective of businesses overhere in the box.
Mak (38:37):
Well, and that's where I was.
You're calling me out, butyou're also making the point I
was about to make Is that I lovebeing in business for myself.
I don't love business all thetime, but what I love is
creative problem solving, andthat's what it has become become
(38:58):
and what we have successfullydone.
What you and I havesuccessfully done over the last,
say, two years, two and a halfyears, is we built a business
that we really enjoy because westopped following all of the
rules of business.
We 100 stepped outside of thebox, stepped outside of the
(39:19):
lanes and we said no, no, makingmoney can be easy, making money
can be fun.
Having a business isn't a drag.
Having a business is fun.
And how can we be the mostcreative we possibly can and
have a business at the same time?
And we're doing it.
Valerie (39:38):
And we, like you said, broke down those stories of oh,
I'm not good at business, andyou almost have to remind
yourself and so much of what Ido too with those who I work
with in creativity that it oftengets you to almost an
unbecoming of who you are, notto remember who you really are,
(39:59):
because those childhood versionsof us actually are pretty cool,
awesome little people that arestill you.
And so for me it was thisunbecoming of wait a second.
I was the little girl saying Iwanted to be a CEO and I had an
enterprise going in myelementary school and now I've
(40:23):
overcomplicated it because Ibought into all of the lies.
So it's reminding.
No, it's a both.
And Artist and business personis not mutually exclusive.
Creative and business acumen orbusiness prowess is not
mutually exclusive.
(40:44):
It's a both.
Mak (40:45):
and and here's something Do you know what gives you
business prowess?
Honestly, failing, failure andtime.
There's people who start andthey're lucky, they land in the
right spot at the right time andthey have a hit right away, and
that's fine.
But even those people faileventually.
(41:05):
Yeah, there is no person who'sjust like a born and naturally
good business person.
It's something learned and itis the experience that gives you
the edge.
So, in order for you to becomeit, you're going to start and
you're going to be terrible.
Let's use this creative.
Valerie (41:25):
But that's how you start a new medium or anything
Exactly.
Mak (41:27):
That's exactly what I would say.
Let's use this example If youlove to paint, the very first
painting you painted wasprobably awful.
If you're a songwriter, yourfirst 10 songs were probably bad
.
Actually, your first hundredwere probably bad.
Anything you do the first timeyou ever cook a meal, it's bad.
Even if you're using a cookbookmore than likely if you're
(41:48):
having company using cookbook,you do, or you do a run through
because you're going to messsomething up.
It's the, it's the repetitionthat makes you good.
Same thing if you're in sports,I don't care.
Like how many balls did tigerwoods hit before he made the
tour?
I mean hundreds of thousands.
This is the same thing.
Business acumen is not assignedto someone because of anything
(42:14):
other than experience, and so ifyou're creative, you can't.
You don't tell yourself I'mgoing to be bad at business.
Yes, you're going to be bad atbusiness when you first start
because you have no experiencebut not because you're an artist
, but not because you're anartist and that's why having
well, and and that's why findinga mentor or having a coach
accelerates the process.
It really accelerates theprocess.
(42:36):
That's why people work with usin varying degrees, and that's
part of what we do.
But even if you don't want towork with a mentor or a coach,
you take the time and you go.
I'm just going to be bad atthis for a while.
And suddenly one day you'll dosomething and you'll go wait a
minute.
That was actually pretty good.
That was actually pretty good.
And then all of a sudden you go.
(42:56):
You know what?
I'm not so bad at this businessthing.
But if the whole time you'remessing up, you're telling
yourself I'm bad at this, wellthen you're going to stay bad at
it.
But the people who are inprofessional sports, they really
want it.
When they're bad at it, theyget up and they do it again.
They get up and they do itagain.
They get up and they do itagain.
They know what the outcome isgoing to be.
Business is the same thing.
Valerie (43:17):
So let's, let's change this cultural narrative,
honestly, like it's just got togo.
Mak (43:22):
Yeah.
Valerie (43:22):
And if this is resonating with you, if you're
thinking, oh my goodness, maybeI did just subconsciously buy
into that because we hear it sooften and just even asking the
question, what if it's not true?
Like, what would life look likefor you if that wasn't true?
Just simply ask that question.
(43:43):
Let your brain do the rest,because your brain loves problem
solving.
That's the other thing I wantto say.
You are also wired for problemsolving, and if you give your
brain like a little puzzle,instead of just saying, oh I
suck, I'm bad, blah, blah.
You know if you actually saywhat if it wasn't true?
What if I am an artist and Icould be a really killer
(44:07):
business person?
Mak (44:08):
What if I'm an artist and I could be really great at
marketing myself on social media?
Person.
What if I'm an artist and Icould be really great at
marketing myself on social media?
Yes, what if I'm an artist andI could have a really great
email list?
Valerie (44:19):
Yep.
Mak (44:19):
So many people are like oh, but I just can't, I just can't
market myself, I don't know howto market myself.
Of course you're.
Then you're, you're going to bebad, you're gonna be bad, but
you have to be bad to be good.
Valerie (44:33):
But even then marketing we won't get into that.
Mak (44:37):
No, that's another podcast, because that's like a whole
other thing, but I was gonna saywe're listening to the
formulaic version of that aswell.
Valerie (44:45):
Oh, you need this and da da, da, da da.
What if you could just show upand be yourself and have your
enthusiasm and your energy pullpeople in, and that's marketing.
But you have to be willing tobe seen and do it.
Mak (45:01):
You were just talking to a songwriter here in Nashville who
is very talented, and what doesshe say to you?
Valerie (45:09):
I'm just trying to figure out what what radio.
I'm just all I'm.
I'm just trying to figure outwhat what radio.
Mak (45:13):
I'm just trying All I'm doing is right and trying to
figure out what radio wants.
That is such, that's such thewrong attitude, because you
don't.
She's not writing for herself,then.
And that's one of my favoriteRick Rubin quotes.
I love it, the probably myfavorite no-transcript it.
(45:58):
And it was so backwards andcounterintuitive and everybody
loved it.
And it's because I stoppedDJing for the audience and then,
later on in life, I created aradio station for me.
I didn't think about theaudience at all.
I created a radio station forme.
I didn't think about theaudience at all.
I created a radio station thatI wanted for myself, and a
hundred million listeners later,everybody was calling me saying
(46:19):
how did you do this?
And the answer was I did it forme, I wasn't thinking about the
audience, and so I want to tellyou that radio today, all they
think about is the audience, andso I want to tell you that
radio today, all they thinkabout is the audience.
And so the people writingrecords to try to get on the
radio now you're in like adouble layer.
They're she's trying to writesongs that radio wants, and
(46:42):
radio's too afraid to takechances on new songs because
they have to test everything andthey call people do you like
this song?
Do you not like this?
Everyone's living in fear.
The songs that are breaking out, the artists that are getting
big on TikTok and all theseother places.
The gatekeepers are going away.
Because these people are, theydon't have to write for anybody
(47:02):
but themselves.
And the artists who really takeoff out of nowhere wildfire and
the record labels are chasingthem are the ones who are
writing for themselves.
They don't give a crap aboutthe audience and, as a creative,
that's a good place to begin.
When you are solving a problem,when you want to start a
business, think of a problemthat you face every single day
(47:26):
and solve it creatively, even ifthere's a thousand people
already solving that problemlook at Uber.
It's your solution could speakto a hundred thousand people,
and that's all you need have ahundred thousand people.
Gave you $10 a year, what wouldyour life look like?
So like this is the point isstop thinking about the audience
(47:48):
and everything else.
Focus on you.
What lights you up, what makesyou happy?
What problems do you want tosolve, and things will begin.
Valerie (47:55):
Stop thinking about the audience and everything else.
Focus on you.
What lights you up, what makesyou happy, what problems?
Mak (47:58):
do you want to solve and things will begin to click.
Valerie (47:59):
Limiting beliefs, you guys, it's so crazy.
It's the limiting beliefs.
And just what if?
What if things aren't happeningthe way that you want them to
and it's as a result of thelimiting belief, but yet we
believe that things aren'thappening the way we want them
to.
And it's as a result of thelimiting belief, but yet we
believe that things aren'thappening the way we want them
to.
Therefore, we're holding on tothe limiting belief.
But what if the limiting beliefhas to go first?
yes, what if that's the partthat has to go first not.
Mak (48:20):
What if let's just say it has to go first the?
Valerie (48:22):
story is going to change everything.
The beliefs that you hold aregoing to change the behavior.
That's just how it is.
So we we hope that this hasopened up that belief a little
bit more.
That if you are an artist, youare creative.
Guess what you get to have alife that you want.
There is not a linear path.
You get to have agency, youhave choice, you have ways that
(48:47):
you can do things differently,and being a creative makes you
perfectly suited to do that andwe weren't gonna.
Mak (48:53):
We weren't gonna do this, but I'm I'm calling an audible
here.
Um, I'm gonna, I'm gonna giveeveryone a little pitch.
We have something coming in,magic makers.
If this is resonating with youand you're saying, yeah, I, I
get all this.
We have a program coming andwe're gonna be announcing it
really really soon.
This podcast is coming outmid-May.
It's really really soon.
(49:17):
We're going to have a groupsituation where you can overcome
these limiting beliefs and livea creative life like you have
never thought possible.
We've been testing this forabout five months with a small,
intimate group and are havingstellar results that we're super
stoked about, and so we'regoing to take this to a bigger
(49:37):
group.
And so make sure you payattention.
Go sign up at ValerieMcKeoncomslash email, I think it is.
You could put your emailaddress in somewhere.
Just go on her, go on Val'swebsite and put your email
address in.
You'll hear about it.
And then I also do privateone-on-one creativity and
business coaching, and I havetwo or three open slots right
now and I'm gettinglife-changing results for my
(50:00):
clients very quickly.
They compress years into weeks,and so if this is something
that you've been looking at oryou're kind of there, but you
know you could do more.
We have options for you, and soreach out to me, dm me on
Instagram or find me.
I'm out there Because we wantto help you.
We want to help you with thisstuff Because you are totally
(50:22):
capable of living that life thatyou want, whether you want to
make tons of money or you justwant to find relief.
Valerie (50:29):
A creative life is the path.
Mak (50:31):
It is.
Valerie (50:32):
And that is what we support.
We want to see everybody justleaning into their own magic and
unlocking that, getting rid ofthe limiting beliefs and these
ways of thinking and thesecultural distinctions that have
been put on creativity.
Creativity is meant to beunbound.
It's meant to be messy andexploratory and all of those
(50:57):
things.
So we want to be yourcheerleaders on that path and
whatever that may look like.
So we hope this episode washelpful.
If so, could you do us a bigfavor and leave us a review and
let us know it really, reallyhelps us.
It helps other people who coulduse this message like we
(51:18):
literally feel, um, so called totalk about these things that we
get passionate about it andchanging cultural messages
around what it means to be anartist and a creative and how it
fits with business and theworld and our humanity and all
of these things.
It's something we feel calledto do.
We want as many creatives whoare suffering and living under
(51:41):
the weight of these beliefs thataren't theirs to carry to be
able to find this podcast, andthat would really help.
Mak (51:47):
So leave us a review that helps the algorithm juice and
also hit the subscribe button.
That's another big thing forthe episode to a friend who you
think might benefit from it, andthank you so much for listening
.
We'll see you next time.
Valerie (51:59):
Bye.
so we took a week off to go to the beach and we said we
were gonna record when we gotback so that we could stay on
track.
But then we decided to stay anextra day at the beach and
therefore we're.
We took a week off, but we'reback now we're back.
Valerie (00:26):
We're excited to be back continuing our conversation
, that we've been having so manyof these conversations while we
were away and then continuingto come back and we're always
saying we need to record this,we need to make it a podcast,
just our normal conversations.
So that's what we hope to do inthis podcast Just bring you
along into the conversationsthat we have.
(00:49):
And it's so funny becausesometimes we will literally be
in the middle of just our normaleveryday conversation and we'll
go stop, don't say any don'tsay any more because we want to
have this conversation on thepodcast and this topic that
we're going to be talking abouttoday.
That's what happened.
Mak (01:09):
And I think this topic for today is something that you and
I talk about nonstop.
I feel like this is sort of thecrux of a lot of what we're
doing and everything that isdriving us forward.
Valerie (01:26):
It's a big part of it.
It is by the way, this is theUnbound Creative Podcast.
Mak (01:31):
Welcome.
Valerie (01:32):
And I'm Valerie.
Mak (01:33):
I'm Mac.
We're husband and wife.
We're both creatives.
We both have built largecreative-based businesses, had a
lot of success, had a ton offailure.
Creative based businesses had alot of success, had a ton of
failure and have really landedin this great place where we
want to help creatives and wethink everyone is creative in
one way or another Finally startliving a creative, fulfilling
(01:57):
life and make money doing it.
Valerie (02:00):
And that can look like so many different ways.
I don't want to get off on atangent, but there's so much
that's put on creatives that area linear path.
That makes no sense at all.
It's creative.
So we think that in order to beconsidered living a creative
life, it has to look a certainway and you have to monetize a
(02:22):
certain way.
Or if you're creative, there'sa school of thought that's like
no, you want to keep the art andthe creativity pure and not
monetize it and all of thisstuff.
And we're just the whole pointof being unbound and living
unbound as a creative is thatthere are no rules.
There is a creative life forevery single person.
(02:46):
We firmly believe it and it'snot going to look like anybody
else and it's not going to fitinto these cultural boxes that
that have been laid out for us,like, oh, you want to be a
successful artist, okay, do thisand this and this.
And it's like no, there's somuch more to our creativity and
our humanity, which is literallywhat we create is at the core
(03:10):
of our humanity and expressingthat in the world, and it is so
much bigger and deeper and widerand more expansive than we're
taught that it is.
Mak (03:24):
And God is the ultimate creator.
He created everything and ifwe're made in his image, then
we're made to create, not tolive in this narrow lane of just
work, work, work, work, workall the time.
Valerie (03:38):
And formulaic, and you are wired for it.
It is in your very DNA that youare wired to do this and you
are wired for it, like it is inyour very DNA that you are wired
to do this and you are wired tocreate.
Mak (03:50):
And you don't have to be a visual artist or a musician or a
sculptor or whatever a dancerto be considered creative.
Anyone who has an inspiredthought about something is
creative, so you can be creative.
So so many people out there arecreative but they've never
leaned into it because they'relike oh, I'm not a good painter.
(04:11):
This isn't this.
We're not just talking aboutpeople in the arts.
If you have ever createdanything like a meal plan, you
are creative.
Valerie (04:22):
But in the arts certainly too.
But the point is, when we areliving as mainly consumers, it
is just scientifically proventhat we're unhappy.
We're not living up to ourpurpose.
It is in unlocking yourcreativity and what you can make
(04:43):
and what you can bring to theworld and the beauty that you
can create and materialize thatfills us with purpose and makes
us feel happy.
So that's really whatcreativity is is switching that
mode from being mostly aconsumer to somebody who also
produces beauty in the world.
Mak (05:02):
The opposition of the opposite of depression and
anxiety is actually creativity.
Valerie (05:09):
It's expression.
Mak (05:10):
It is, yeah, creativity, expression, production.
So if you're living in a lifethat feels anchored in those two
things and a lot of people arethe answer scientifically
scientifically is to actuallybegin to create.
But we have been taught as asociety that when we're feeling
that way, you dig deeper intoconsumerism, we sink more into
(05:37):
entertainment, into food, intoall of that kind of thing, when
actually, if you spend time andcreate, it really helps pull you
out of that place.
Valerie (05:47):
Yeah, we live in such a left brain society that it's
almost like we don't trust theright brain thing, so it's
really easy to write thosethings off.
But that's actually holding thekey and the antidote to so much
, so much of our suffering.
Mak (06:06):
So, with that said, we want to talk about what we think is
probably the biggest lieperpetuated upon creatives.
Valerie (06:14):
There are so many.
Mak (06:15):
This is one of them it's.
So it is vast and we'll coveras much as we can in the podcast
in the future.
We also don't want to sit hereand be doing four hour episodes.
We can in the podcast in thefuture.
We also don't want to sit hereand be doing four hour episodes,
but this one, I think, as oftoday, the recording of this
podcast.
Valerie (06:35):
we feel like this is the biggest one, and we just
heard this recently from a fewdifferent people.
Mak (06:40):
We were at a party, a dinner party, and the topic of
creatives and business came upand everyone just blindly agreed
with the idea that if you arecreative, you know in your
artistry and, oh, I can't worrymyself with matters of business.
Valerie (07:09):
It's so deep in so many ways, because not only do we
perpetuate this idea thatartists are bad at business in
the example that I just gaveit's almost like you're supposed
to be it's really really sneakywhere it's like there's this
(07:30):
idea of a real artist andthey're just so flighty and
doing all of this stuff, andthat, by its very nature, means
that you cannot be good atbusiness.
So there's that angle almostlike you're supposed to be bad
at business if you're an artistbut then there's also just the,
(07:51):
the vibe and the feeling thatthat is.
Mak (07:55):
It is just that way well, the idea is that people who are
creative lack some kind offundamental grounding that is
required to be a business person.
Valerie (08:04):
Or organization or discipline.
Mak (08:09):
But all that owning a business is is solving a problem
for somebody else.
That's literally it.
You solve a problem forsomebody else.
They pay you money.
That's a business.
I'm hungry.
I go to a restaurant.
I pay somebody to bring me food.
My house is dirty.
I pay someone to clean thehouse.
I need health insurance.
(08:30):
I pay a company to give mehealth insurance.
No matter how you break it down, I need my taxes done.
I hire a CPA.
They do my taxes.
That's all a business is.
Now, who is best set up tosolve problems creatively in the
world?
Valerie (08:50):
people who are creative but before we even get into
that, I want to just let's,let's say this could it be?
Let's just consider this for asecond, because this was our
conversation earlier, mac.
What if it is this messagingthat we've been telling
everybody, this culturalmessaging that everybody has
(09:13):
just accepted to be true?
What if that is actually thecause?
Like, what if that is actuallyit's not, that it's, it's
telling a factual truth.
What if it's in the story thatwe've been telling everybody
that artists and creatives arebad at business, that that is
(09:37):
actually the catalyst which ismaking them bad at business?
It's kind of like if you tellsomebody, hey, you suck at this,
you're not good, does that makethem bad at it?
I think it does, because it's alabeling thing, it's an identity
thing.
It all comes down to story andwhat we know to be a fact is
(10:02):
that our belief system, ourbeliefs, come first.
The belief and who you arebeing is going to determine the
doing.
So if the belief system is thatyou've just blindly accepted
I'm an artist, therefore I'm badat business, could it have been
(10:23):
in just the story?
Not that it's true.
Mak (10:27):
That's 100% the issue in my opinion, and we have two young
girls and we were even justtalking earlier about how when,
in raising them, there is allthis scientific evidence now to
support the idea that if youtell your kids things when
they're young, they will carrythat with them their entire
(10:48):
lives.
So if you say things like oh,money doesn't grow on cheese and
you've got to work hard to makemoney, and all of these things,
they'll go through their livesthinking that and that will
actually become ingrained andthey will make making money
harder.
They will look at money withthis different, this different
perspective.
It's the same way if you sayyou know, santa Claus is, you
(11:09):
know, is real, and he comes andbrings presents every December
24th.
They believe that and theycarry that with them.
It's the same concept here isthat we believe a story we're
told and you probably, if you'rethinking about it right now,
you may have had a teacher or aparent or somebody you looked up
to, a mentor or something atsome point in your life who told
(11:29):
you you know what this isn'tfor you.
You might have something youlove to do, but they said, ah,
you're just not good at this,because my dad has a story like
that.
He was told he has a tin earand so he never tried to pursue
singing.
Your dad actually has a verysimilar story, and what happened
was they just believed it andso it was taken off the table.
(11:51):
Because we believe the storiesand, you know, frankly, I think
therapy has exploded in the last15 years because of the
awareness that the conditioningthat was brought upon us as kids
, millennials as kids, and soforth, led us to have all kinds
of problems in the future, andnow we're trying to undo all
(12:13):
that.
This is a similar situation.
Valerie (12:17):
Well, the fact that in children which is a great
example they are going to liveup to the expectation.
So if you expect them and treatthem like they're a bad kid,
they're often going to become abad kid, like that's what's
expected of them.
So we're very intentional ofhow we speak to our daughters.
(12:39):
Say you are a kind person, youare creative, you can figure out
this problem, you are capable.
We're constantly saying that toour girls because that belief
in them is going to shape theirbelief in themselves.
Mak (12:55):
Well, we see it now with them.
Already Our youngest, ourtwo-year-old.
For a long time, for about sixmonths, she would try to do
something undo a zipper, open adrawer, take a lid off a basket,
something like that and she'dsay I can't do it, I can't do it
.
And never once did we step inand do it for her.
We say, yes, you can, you canfigure it out.
And she'd go, okay, and itmight take her a couple of tries
(13:18):
, but she would figure it out.
And now she never says that,she never says I can't do it,
she's figuring things out on herown.
And but this is notbraggadocious, this is just like
we're not geniuses here.
This is just the way it works.
And so we as adults have torecognize that we, we have the
(13:38):
same problems.
So if we're hearing all thetime from society that that as a
creative, you're going to bestarving and poor and suffering
for your art and you're no goodat business and you shouldn't
try because you're all of thesethings, then of course you're
not going to live into that.
(13:58):
Now there are always outliers.
There are people who actuallyget motivated by that negative
reinforcement and go I'm goingto show you that I can, and
that's awesome, but that's veryrare compared to just people
living into it.
And I think when COVID hit andeverybody started working from
(14:19):
home, all kinds of stuff startedto change.
People began to realize youknow what this nine to five
thing is kind of a drag, and nowall these companies are having
a hard time getting people tocome back to work.
We saw a massive shift out ofcorporate living and people
(14:39):
starting businesses, beingentrepreneurial, being more
creative, because they got ataste of wait a minute, I can
have a good life doing life theway I want to, rather than what
I've been told my whole life ithas to be School, college, nine
to five, retire, and so there'sthis massive shift taking place
(15:02):
in all of that, and I thinkCOVID was kind of a catalyst,
and so what we're talking aboutis the same, is similar in
concept, where all of a suddenthere was this big awakening no,
I can actually have a life thatI love and work from anywhere,
and and I don't have to be stuckin the confines of a definition
that somebody came up with ahundred years ago I can actually
(15:24):
live the life that I want.
And that's when we saw thegreat.
What did they call it the great?
exodus or a great quitting, or Iforget what it was called.
So when, looking at that asevidence of behavioral change,
when there's a realization thatyou don't have to listen to the
story you've been told this isthis is this is the exact same
(15:48):
thing.
So if you're creative, if youare an artist, if you are a
singer or if you're just someonewho has creative desire but
you've never followed it becauseyou're telling yourself these
subconscious stories on repeatthat you can't, then you never
will.
Valerie (16:05):
Or the fact that I'm creative means that I will be
bad at it, and then it stops youfrom even trying.
It just is like oh okay, I'mcreative, I'm bad at it.
No, I can't go there.
But I want to say, though, Ithink there is a tendency also
in our culture, and it drives mecrazy, that there's a pedestal
(16:27):
put on becoming a full-timeartist or a full-time creative,
and this also drives me insane,because everything I think,
everything that it drives meinsane, honestly, if I am
thinking about it, it's thingsthat are so black and white.
I hate that.
I think that's the whole unboundidea, because it's this other
(16:51):
message that well, it's notvalid unless you're professional
, and unless you're full-timerunning a business, making a
full career's worth of moneyfrom your creativity, then it's
valid.
Mak (17:04):
Or unless you're suffering, your art is bad.
Unless you're suffering, it'snot like you can be having a
really good life where you arehappy in your job that has
nothing to do with creativity,but then you go home at night
and you create things.
Well, that doesn't countbecause you're not suffering for
your art.
Valerie (17:22):
Or going after it being your career, then somehow, why
are you doing it if you're notdoing it for your career?
Mak (17:29):
So this is OK.
So, and I can't, I think I'vegot this fact right, so nobody
fact check me on this but Ithink it's the CEO of Chase Bank
or JP Morgan.
I think yeah, that's the sameJP Morgan Chase.
I want to say it's JP MorganChase, it's, but it's that that
(17:49):
guy who knows what his salary isand all that stuff, and he's
the head of the one, the biggestbank in the world, or one of
the largest banks in the world.
But on the weekends he's thislike EMD DJ who's out in
flip-flops and shorts spinningfor like all generation z and
whatever in the clubs and allthis stuff, and they love this
guy.
But during the week he's in asuit running the biggest bank in
(18:11):
the world and he's supercreative.
The music he's making that he'sinventing, he's not just
spinning it like he's writingtracks and all this is amazing.
But that's, that's OK, it's onein the same, it's one of the
same.
Valerie (18:25):
He needs that creative skill for his job Correct, and
that's the point that we'retrying to make here.
Mak (18:32):
Well, hold on, hold on.
That seems very ambiguous whatyou just said.
You have to explain that.
Valerie (18:36):
Yeah.
Mak (18:37):
Why does he need that for his job?
To do well, Well.
Valerie (18:40):
Google.
It was just Google that cameout with the two top skills they
have in their employees.
What would you think that itwould be?
The two skills that are, like,indispensable, like they have to
have these skills, it'screativity and empathy Makes
(19:01):
total sense.
So why, in one breath, are wetaking the creatives and the
artists and telling them you arebad at the thing that,
literally you.
Mak (19:13):
Google once, google once because, artists are empathetic.
Valerie (19:19):
Oh my goodness, we're feelers, we are intuitive, we
are.
Mak (19:24):
That's what it's.
That's what it's all about.
We are.
That's what it's all about, andthat's, and so and like the
other thing that happens whereartists and creatives get the
shaft is okay, so they buy intothe story and they're suffering
for their art.
Okay, they're living this lowlife but they're creating all
(19:46):
the time because they can't makemoney and they can't be in
business or whatever.
But then they get discoveredand they take off and they start
and they're huge.
And then what does everybody do?
They sold out, they sold out.
So you have to suffer.
But if you stop suffering, thenyou're also a jerk.
(20:06):
You're also.
You can't make it.
So like we put, listen to, like.
This is the point here is and Idon't want us to get too too,
too heady, but you're kind of,you're kind of screwed either
way, but it's still a box.
Valerie (20:22):
It's still a box.
It's like the institutions thatwe have put in place.
Box.
It's like the institutions thatwe have put in place.
And I think a lot of artistsand creatives they see the
institution and they're likethat's the only way.
Yeah, like I have to play thegame of this institution, but
meanwhile there's such a bigworld, there's so much
(20:43):
opportunity that it might lookdifferently.
And so it goes back to our pointof your creative life can be
fulfilling and life-giving andperfect for you without choosing
these black and whitenarratives in order to make it
valid.
And I see this a lot too in ourmembership community and magic
(21:05):
makers.
We have doctors that are partof it and and so many people who
have their professional jobsand their careers where they are
professionals and they love itand they love being doctors.
But they're like, look, this issomething that fills me up and
makes my life so much better andit has a ton.
(21:28):
I can't emphasize enough thevalidity of that in and of
itself for your own healing, foryour own health, for the own
way that you show up in theworld, your wonder, your
curiosity, your play, your joy,your delight, on and on and on,
literally scientifically backed,that the arts and creativity
heal us and that has such aweight to it in and of itself.
(21:53):
And it's not a either or it's aboth and Like why can't somebody
say this is a perfectlyvaluable, even if you're not
getting paid for it, path?
But for those who want to getpaid for it and be in the
professional sphere of acreative life, guess what you
(22:14):
get to have that too, it gets tobe a both, and both valuable,
both valid, both legitimate.
But we're illegitimizing bothavenues and then giving people
the lie that, on one hand, oh,not important, not worth it, you
better get serious.
And then, on the other hand,when they do quote unquote get
(22:37):
serious which I hate, thatthat's a whole other thing.
Then when they do get serious,they're being told but you're
not good at it, get serious,make money from this, make it
full time, but you suck.
How do you?
Mak (22:50):
what do you do with that?
And I want to.
I want to go back to the point,too, about, like you were
saying, we have doctors andstuff and magic makers, which is
which is super cool, attorneysI mean people from all walks of
life.
And here's the thing, and thisis what I want to be so freeing
for you.
I don't want you to ever comeaway from our podcast thinking
that our whole goal is foreverybody to make money being
(23:11):
creative, or we would just bepart of the problem.
But our goal is to point outthat creativity is more than
likely the most rewarding,fulfilling, freeing response to
the stress of your life.
So if a doctor, let's say adoctor, is a brain surgeon,
there they have a 20 hoursurgery and they're so good at
(23:32):
what they do, there's nothingwrong with coming home then and
painting a watercolor where mostpeople would say, oh, go get a
massage, watch some Netflix orwhatever.
And again, nothing wrong withthose things.
We're not anti that stuff.
But what most people don't wantto try is the creative piece,
because somewhere along the linethey were told not to, or it
(23:53):
seems frivolous and it seemsstupid or childish.
It's often labeled as childish,which we hate, because when we
were all kids, we were freethinkers and we didn't have all
of the stress of worrying aboutwhat other people think of us
and all this stuff.
And we just created and wecreated and we created.
(24:13):
Every child in kindergarten isa creative genius.
What happens to those people?
So the point is, like yourresponse to what's going on in
your life.
You can have that balance.
You can have a really greatcareer and then go paint on the
weekends or at night, or you canlove painting so much at night
that you start saying you knowwhat I'm going to make money
(24:36):
doing this.
And it doesn't have to be yourcareer, it can just be something
fun that you make money doing.
There are so many differentways, but the point is you have
to create and your creativitymakes you perfect for running a
business.
Valerie (24:51):
Yes, that is what we want everybody to take away from
this that you have agency andchoice here.
How often are we taught thisanalogy too, where it's like
it's the luck of the draw andthat person's so lucky and
almost like the chosen few thatyou know a magic wand came down
(25:15):
and got to them.
But you get to create again whycreativity is so important,
like your greatest creativeaccomplishment ever is going to
be your own life.
And you get to have agency here.
You get to choose and say Iwant to employ these business
skills.
What if I am not bad at this?
(25:37):
What if I've just believed thelie that I'm artistic?
Therefore I should be bad at it?
But what if you would be braveenough to say what if not?
What if I am good at this?
And then you get to choose yourpath and try different things.
Mak (25:52):
Some of the most creative people I know own businesses and
are wildly, wildly successfulbecause they look at solving
problems.
And when you start a businessthere's hundreds of problems
that you have to solve.
It's just constant problemsolving.
But according to RorySutherland, the opposite of a
good idea is a good idea.
(26:13):
And so often the left brainsays there's only one answer to
a solution.
But that's not true.
There's only one answer to aproblem, there's only one
solution to a problem, butthat's not true.
There's actually thousands ofpossible ways to solve a problem
.
But a right brain thinker willbe thinking about all kinds of
(26:33):
creative ways to solve a problem.
And what happens?
If we all just believe what theleft brain said all the time?
Everything would be sterile inthe same.
But if you take an engineersolving a problem and you gave
that same problem to Walt Disney, I'm sure that Walt Disney's
(26:53):
solution would be very exciting.
And it's not that theengineer's solution is wrong,
and it's not that Walt Disney'ssolution is wrong, it's that
you're going to get such vastdifferences.
But we've been trained as asociety for so long saying well,
we got to take the engineer'sapproach because it's a system,
it's a framework, it's this orthat, but but so.
(27:15):
So the point is, business isnothing more than creative
problem solving from day one.
That's it.
You're creative, whether you'repainting or you're writing a
song, you're preparing a meal, Idon't care what it is, you are
just solving one problem afteranother, after another after
another, to get your art outthere, and that's all a business
(27:39):
is.
It's the same exact thing.
So if you are creative and yourmind is scattered because
you're creative and you'reconstantly thinking of all kinds
of things, great.
That's what Google says.
We want creative people becauseit's the creative people who
will come up with the creativesolutions.
Right, and Google hiresthousands of engineers.
(28:00):
But what do they want?
They want creative people andengineers can be creative too,
but they thousands of engineers.
But what do they want?
They want creative people andengineers can be creative too,
but they want creative engineers.
It's that linear thinking thathas really driven this narrative
behind artists and creativityand business into the wrong
mountain.
Valerie (28:19):
Business is not that complicated.
It's actually not that hard it.
Business is not thatcomplicated.
Mak (28:23):
It's actually not that hard .
Valerie (28:24):
It really is not that complicated.
It is solving that.
It's accepting money inexchange of value.
Literally, that is what we aredoing.
We are taking our money, we'reexchanging it for things that we
deem to be valuable and makeour lives better.
(28:46):
And we can think about art inthat way because we hear the
word solving a problem, andsolving a problem can mean
making somebody's life better,where they were in one place and
feeling one way, and then theyexperienced a piece of art and
it changed them.
Therefore, they are exchangingvalue for that piece of art and
(29:07):
we really overcomplicate it.
And yes, of course, when we getinto thinking about taxes,
corporations and when a businessgrows and all of these things,
yes, sure, are there things tolearn, is there a learning curve
?
Are there things that feeluncomfortable, that you don't
know, that you have to figureout and learn and understand?
(29:28):
Yes, of course, but at the veryfundamental part of it we stop
ourselves from even trying,because we think about this like
overly complex workings of,like a major corporation,
without realizing that you canget started at this very basic,
fundamental level.
(29:50):
I mean, think about a yard saleor I mean that is business and
we can write that off and say,oh, that's not for real,
whatever, but it is.
That is what is.
That's what it is.
We overcomplicate things andthen it stops us from even
trying or thinking that we havethe chops for it.
Mak (30:11):
And the thing about all of that stuff look, none of it's
hard, it really isn't.
Valerie (30:21):
That's another story.
It is that it's hard.
It really isn't.
That's another story.
Mak (30:22):
It is that it's hard when you the people who have the most
money tend to find ways to notpay taxes, but they're not
cheating the system.
They look at the tax code andthey find creative ways to avoid
paying taxes within the law.
That's a form of creativity,and this is what.
(30:45):
So my point here is this wherewe would go oh, I could never.
You know, I could never do that.
It's too big.
Oh, I form a corporation.
That's so hard, you needattorneys, it's scary.
It's scary.
No, you don't.
You need 500 bucks and acomputer, that's it.
And if you learn to look atthose types of things all the
(31:06):
big, scary looking stuff aboutbusiness as it's just a process
and you're working your waythrough it and when a bump comes
up, you have the freedom to sitthere and creatively think
through 20 different solutions.
You don't have to take the mostcommon path, you don't have to
do what everybody else has done.
(31:26):
You have the freedom to come upwith something else, like I
have a family member who hasbeen offered lots of money for
their property and I listened tothe negotiations and I've been
like well, have you thoughtabout doing this, have you
thought about doing this?
And it's usually met with anegative no, no, no, we can't.
(31:47):
That's not how it's done.
Why not, like, talk to thepeople?
It's a negotiation.
There's no rule on how it hasto play out.
If you can creatively speakwith someone on how to come up
with a solution that works foreverybody, then it's fine.
It's all.
The point here is it's allcreativity, and you don't have
(32:07):
to think about all of that stuffto get started.
You literally can just go.
You know what?
I'm gonna change my perspectiveand I'm gonna tell myself no, I
am creative, I can come up with.
You probably come up withcreative solutions to problems
all the time.
Look, people who don't have anymoney, starving artists who
have to survive week to week ormonth to month and they're not
(32:28):
sure how they're going to paytheir rent or put food on the
table.
They come up with some prettycreative ways to pay rent and
get food on the table, don'tthey?
This is the same thing, butyou're changing your mindset to.
I don't have to be a starvingartist.
I can be a wealthy artist.
Valerie (32:44):
I can, I can or just asking what if?
Yeah, exactly the question.
What if?
Mak (32:50):
is the most powerful question, and it's but you're
still solving, you're stillsitting there and being creative
.
It's just the frame from whichyou're you're facing the
problems.
Valerie (33:00):
It's the belief it really is coming from the belief
and the story that if it'smaking money from my art then
that has to mean that it's hardor scary or yucky and all of
these things.
Well, I want to give just myown story as an example.
I come from an entrepreneurialfamily, which I'm very, very
(33:20):
blessed to have had that example.
My parents were small businessowners.
They've since retired, but Ihad that example and my dad
would always instill in me thatI have this agency, that I can
do these things.
I don't have to follow thispath.
(33:40):
He would always say to me youcan be anything that you want to
be.
And growing up as a child, whenyou would ask me what do you
want to be when you grow up, Iwould say a CEO.
It was just my response I'mlike a CEO.
And I mean I believed it.
And even in elementary,elementary school some of my
(34:02):
earliest elementary schoolmemories even are of creating
businesses that I would take tomy school and I loved American
Girl magazine and they hadcrafts in there and I would make
the crafts at home.
There was one in particular.
It was like embroidery flosswith a pencil, um, which is
(34:24):
incredibly uh, not not veryproductive because, like, how do
you sharpen it, like when youhave embroidery floss on it?
But still, it was super cuteand I made these pencils and I
took them to school and soldthem at school and I had a few
enterprises like that.
I made a school newspaper thatI brought in and that was in
(34:46):
sixth grade and so I just in themarketing world, advertising
world, before I accidentallyfell into becoming a full-time
(35:08):
artist.
So I really did.
It was a hobby that I was makingchalkboards, putting them on
Etsy.
It really took off and then asthat business grew, I fell for
the crap and I started sayingstuff like that, stuff like that
, like well, I have an artist'sbrain, I don't have a business
brain.
And even we've said this on thepodcast before Mac.
(35:31):
Our dynamic became that and Itotally bought into this story
where I was like no, I'm theartist and the creative.
And if you would meet us ortalk to us, they'll'll be like
oh, it's so cool, you're inbusiness together.
And it's like, yes, I'm theartist side and he's the
business side.
And I was like this sweet like,and then it just dawned on me
(35:55):
I'm like this is BS.
Mak (35:57):
Well, what's funny about that is I've always been very
creative.
I was creative my whole life,built successful businesses too,
but I was always creatingsomething new and exciting and
fun and big and like constantlyit didn't matter what I was.
I was always had a new projectand as soon as we started the,
(36:17):
we went from the agency intothat.
I was like, oh, she's thecreative one, I'm the business
one.
Valerie (36:23):
Yeah, we like ourselves from the agency into that I I
was like, oh, she's the creativeone, I'm the business one.
Yeah, we like put ourselves, weput ourselves in the boxes that
we are now trying to breakeverybody out of, because that
has been now, um, when westarted lily eval in 2012.
So we're going we're like 13years now of doing this and
being in these creative realmsand and it's like we're trying
to bust open the doors of theboxes that we ourselves
(36:47):
experienced.
And it was it just kind ofdawned on me and honestly I'm
going to say, not that long agoreally, in the grand scheme of
things, I carried this story foryears and years and years that
I was not good.
I was not a good businessperson.
I questioned my decisions andyou know what?
It made me shrink, and it madeyou shrink too.
Mak (37:08):
Yeah, I, I, I went the other way.
And it's funny cause I just hada call with a, with a really
good friend from back inPittsburgh this week.
We were on zoom together.
We spent an hour just catchingup and about 40 minutes into the
call he said so I know you, youguys, are doing all this stuff.
He goes, but what are youspecifically doing for your
creative outlet right now?
(37:28):
And he called me out and I waslike, well, I have a couple
things cooking, but I'm notreally doing.
And he's like, when are yougoing to start?
You need a creative outletbecause I have bought into the
same, I've bought into the sameidea and it's taken me time.
Here I am on the podcastlecturing people, but at the
(37:51):
same time I'm just as I'm asmuch guilty of it as anybody
else where I was like, no, I'mthe, I'm the business person and
I just don't really enjoy beinga business person a whole lot,
but I'm pretty good at itbecause I'm creative.
Valerie (38:06):
But that's another story, that it's hard, Like even
now I'm going to like call youout here that that's another
story.
That business is hard but it'slike shifting that mindset of
like what if it does get to becreative?
What if it like yeah, we're notgoing to enjoy anything 100%.
But I think the part that makesit hard and why you're saying
(38:27):
that so I'm not fully callingyou out, but I think what makes
it hard is the box, when you'relooking at it from the
perspective of businesses overhere in the box.
Mak (38:37):
Well, and that's where I was.
You're calling me out, butyou're also making the point I
was about to make Is that I lovebeing in business for myself.
I don't love business all thetime, but what I love is
creative problem solving, andthat's what it has become become
(38:58):
and what we have successfullydone.
What you and I havesuccessfully done over the last,
say, two years, two and a halfyears, is we built a business
that we really enjoy because westopped following all of the
rules of business.
We 100 stepped outside of thebox, stepped outside of the
(39:19):
lanes and we said no, no, makingmoney can be easy, making money
can be fun.
Having a business isn't a drag.
Having a business is fun.
And how can we be the mostcreative we possibly can and
have a business at the same time?
And we're doing it.
Valerie (39:38):
And we, like you said, broke down those stories of oh,
I'm not good at business, andyou almost have to remind
yourself and so much of what Ido too with those who I work
with in creativity that it oftengets you to almost an
unbecoming of who you are, notto remember who you really are,
(39:59):
because those childhood versionsof us actually are pretty cool,
awesome little people that arestill you.
And so for me it was thisunbecoming of wait a second.
I was the little girl saying Iwanted to be a CEO and I had an
enterprise going in myelementary school and now I've
(40:23):
overcomplicated it because Ibought into all of the lies.
So it's reminding.
No, it's a both.
And Artist and business personis not mutually exclusive.
Creative and business acumen orbusiness prowess is not
mutually exclusive.
(40:44):
It's a both.
Mak (40:45):
and and here's something Do you know what gives you
business prowess?
Honestly, failing, failure andtime.
There's people who start andthey're lucky, they land in the
right spot at the right time andthey have a hit right away, and
that's fine.
But even those people faileventually.
(41:05):
Yeah, there is no person who'sjust like a born and naturally
good business person.
It's something learned and itis the experience that gives you
the edge.
So, in order for you to becomeit, you're going to start and
you're going to be terrible.
Let's use this creative.
Valerie (41:25):
But that's how you start a new medium or anything
Exactly.
Mak (41:27):
That's exactly what I would say.
Let's use this example If youlove to paint, the very first
painting you painted wasprobably awful.
If you're a songwriter, yourfirst 10 songs were probably bad
.
Actually, your first hundredwere probably bad.
Anything you do the first timeyou ever cook a meal, it's bad.
Even if you're using a cookbookmore than likely if you're
(41:48):
having company using cookbook,you do, or you do a run through
because you're going to messsomething up.
It's the, it's the repetitionthat makes you good.
Same thing if you're in sports,I don't care.
Like how many balls did tigerwoods hit before he made the
tour?
I mean hundreds of thousands.
This is the same thing.
Business acumen is not assignedto someone because of anything
(42:14):
other than experience, and so ifyou're creative, you can't.
You don't tell yourself I'mgoing to be bad at business.
Yes, you're going to be bad atbusiness when you first start
because you have no experiencebut not because you're an artist
, but not because you're anartist and that's why having
well, and and that's why findinga mentor or having a coach
accelerates the process.
It really accelerates theprocess.
(42:36):
That's why people work with usin varying degrees, and that's
part of what we do.
But even if you don't want towork with a mentor or a coach,
you take the time and you go.
I'm just going to be bad atthis for a while.
And suddenly one day you'll dosomething and you'll go wait a
minute.
That was actually pretty good.
That was actually pretty good.
And then all of a sudden you go.
(42:56):
You know what?
I'm not so bad at this businessthing.
But if the whole time you'remessing up, you're telling
yourself I'm bad at this, wellthen you're going to stay bad at
it.
But the people who are inprofessional sports, they really
want it.
When they're bad at it, theyget up and they do it again.
They get up and they do itagain.
They get up and they do itagain.
They know what the outcome isgoing to be.
Business is the same thing.
Valerie (43:17):
So let's, let's change this cultural narrative,
honestly, like it's just got togo.
Mak (43:22):
Yeah.
Valerie (43:22):
And if this is resonating with you, if you're
thinking, oh my goodness, maybeI did just subconsciously buy
into that because we hear it sooften and just even asking the
question, what if it's not true?
Like, what would life look likefor you if that wasn't true?
Just simply ask that question.
(43:43):
Let your brain do the rest,because your brain loves problem
solving.
That's the other thing I wantto say.
You are also wired for problemsolving, and if you give your
brain like a little puzzle,instead of just saying, oh I
suck, I'm bad, blah, blah.
You know if you actually saywhat if it wasn't true?
What if I am an artist and Icould be a really killer
(44:07):
business person?
Mak (44:08):
What if I'm an artist and I could be really great at
marketing myself on social media?
Person.
What if I'm an artist and Icould be really great at
marketing myself on social media?
Yes, what if I'm an artist andI could have a really great
email list?
Valerie (44:19):
Yep.
Mak (44:19):
So many people are like oh, but I just can't, I just can't
market myself, I don't know howto market myself.
Of course you're.
Then you're, you're going to bebad, you're gonna be bad, but
you have to be bad to be good.
Valerie (44:33):
But even then marketing we won't get into that.
Mak (44:37):
No, that's another podcast, because that's like a whole
other thing, but I was gonna saywe're listening to the
formulaic version of that aswell.
Valerie (44:45):
Oh, you need this and da da, da, da da.
What if you could just show upand be yourself and have your
enthusiasm and your energy pullpeople in, and that's marketing.
But you have to be willing tobe seen and do it.
Mak (45:01):
You were just talking to a songwriter here in Nashville who
is very talented, and what doesshe say to you?
Valerie (45:09):
I'm just trying to figure out what what radio.
I'm just all I'm.
I'm just trying to figure outwhat what radio.
Mak (45:13):
I'm just trying All I'm doing is right and trying to
figure out what radio wants.
That is such, that's such thewrong attitude, because you
don't.
She's not writing for herself,then.
And that's one of my favoriteRick Rubin quotes.
I love it, the probably myfavorite no-transcript it.
(45:58):
And it was so backwards andcounterintuitive and everybody
loved it.
And it's because I stoppedDJing for the audience and then,
later on in life, I created aradio station for me.
I didn't think about theaudience at all.
I created a radio station forme.
I didn't think about theaudience at all.
I created a radio station thatI wanted for myself, and a
hundred million listeners later,everybody was calling me saying
(46:19):
how did you do this?
And the answer was I did it forme, I wasn't thinking about the
audience, and so I want to tellyou that radio today, all they
think about is the audience, andso I want to tell you that
radio today, all they thinkabout is the audience.
And so the people writingrecords to try to get on the
radio now you're in like adouble layer.
They're she's trying to writesongs that radio wants, and
(46:42):
radio's too afraid to takechances on new songs because
they have to test everything andthey call people do you like
this song?
Do you not like this?
Everyone's living in fear.
The songs that are breaking out, the artists that are getting
big on TikTok and all theseother places.
The gatekeepers are going away.
Because these people are, theydon't have to write for anybody
(47:02):
but themselves.
And the artists who really takeoff out of nowhere wildfire and
the record labels are chasingthem are the ones who are
writing for themselves.
They don't give a crap aboutthe audience and, as a creative,
that's a good place to begin.
When you are solving a problem,when you want to start a
business, think of a problemthat you face every single day
(47:26):
and solve it creatively, even ifthere's a thousand people
already solving that problemlook at Uber.
It's your solution could speakto a hundred thousand people,
and that's all you need have ahundred thousand people.
Gave you $10 a year, what wouldyour life look like?
So like this is the point isstop thinking about the audience
(47:48):
and everything else.
Focus on you.
What lights you up, what makesyou happy?
What problems do you want tosolve, and things will begin.
Valerie (47:55):
Stop thinking about the audience and everything else.
Focus on you.
What lights you up, what makesyou happy, what problems?
Mak (47:58):
do you want to solve and things will begin to click.
Valerie (47:59):
Limiting beliefs, you guys, it's so crazy.
It's the limiting beliefs.
And just what if?
What if things aren't happeningthe way that you want them to
and it's as a result of thelimiting belief, but yet we
believe that things aren'thappening the way we want them
to.
And it's as a result of thelimiting belief, but yet we
believe that things aren'thappening the way we want them
to.
Therefore, we're holding on tothe limiting belief.
But what if the limiting beliefhas to go first?
yes, what if that's the partthat has to go first not.
Mak (48:20):
What if let's just say it has to go first the?
Valerie (48:22):
story is going to change everything.
The beliefs that you hold aregoing to change the behavior.
That's just how it is.
So we we hope that this hasopened up that belief a little
bit more.
That if you are an artist, youare creative.
Guess what you get to have alife that you want.
There is not a linear path.
You get to have agency, youhave choice, you have ways that
(48:47):
you can do things differently,and being a creative makes you
perfectly suited to do that andwe weren't gonna.
Mak (48:53):
We weren't gonna do this, but I'm I'm calling an audible
here.
Um, I'm gonna, I'm gonna giveeveryone a little pitch.
We have something coming in,magic makers.
If this is resonating with youand you're saying, yeah, I, I
get all this.
We have a program coming andwe're gonna be announcing it
really really soon.
This podcast is coming outmid-May.
It's really really soon.
(49:17):
We're going to have a groupsituation where you can overcome
these limiting beliefs and livea creative life like you have
never thought possible.
We've been testing this forabout five months with a small,
intimate group and are havingstellar results that we're super
stoked about, and so we'regoing to take this to a bigger
(49:37):
group.
And so make sure you payattention.
Go sign up at ValerieMcKeoncomslash email, I think it is.
You could put your emailaddress in somewhere.
Just go on her, go on Val'swebsite and put your email
address in.
You'll hear about it.
And then I also do privateone-on-one creativity and
business coaching, and I havetwo or three open slots right
now and I'm gettinglife-changing results for my
(50:00):
clients very quickly.
They compress years into weeks,and so if this is something
that you've been looking at oryou're kind of there, but you
know you could do more.
We have options for you, and soreach out to me, dm me on
Instagram or find me.
I'm out there Because we wantto help you.
We want to help you with thisstuff Because you are totally
(50:22):
capable of living that life thatyou want, whether you want to
make tons of money or you justwant to find relief.
Valerie (50:29):
A creative life is the path.
Mak (50:31):
It is.
Valerie (50:32):
And that is what we support.
We want to see everybody justleaning into their own magic and
unlocking that, getting rid ofthe limiting beliefs and these
ways of thinking and thesecultural distinctions that have
been put on creativity.
Creativity is meant to beunbound.
It's meant to be messy andexploratory and all of those
(50:57):
things.
So we want to be yourcheerleaders on that path and
whatever that may look like.
So we hope this episode washelpful.
If so, could you do us a bigfavor and leave us a review and
let us know it really, reallyhelps us.
It helps other people who coulduse this message like we
(51:18):
literally feel, um, so called totalk about these things that we
get passionate about it andchanging cultural messages
around what it means to be anartist and a creative and how it
fits with business and theworld and our humanity and all
of these things.
It's something we feel calledto do.
We want as many creatives whoare suffering and living under
(51:41):
the weight of these beliefs thataren't theirs to carry to be
able to find this podcast, andthat would really help.
Mak (51:47):
So leave us a review that helps the algorithm juice and
also hit the subscribe button.
That's another big thing forthe episode to a friend who you
think might benefit from it, andthank you so much for listening
.
We'll see you next time.
Valerie (51:59):
Bye.
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