Episode Transcript
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Jen (00:00):
Welcome back to the
unbreakable boundaries podcast
with your host myself, JenniferManeely. In today's episode, I
have a guest with me her name isPamela O'Leary, she is the
founder and CEO of blossombadass. And one of the reasons
that I really asked her to be onthis podcast. You know, if
(00:21):
you've ever listened to any ofmy podcast before, you know, I
love finding people that haven'talways found the traditional
recovery. And it doesn't alwayshave to be the blanket solution.
There's no real like, goals orformat that this has to look
like. I think it really comesfrom committing to yourself to
(00:44):
be the best version of yourselfand then taking mindful action
in order to ensure that you areplaying at your best. And this
is something that Pamela hasdone. And she has been out on
the scene you have Hi, Pamela,by the way, this show
Pamela (01:05):
St. Patrick's Day. very
ironic. Today, right?
Jen (01:10):
It is it is. And so you
have so tell my audience, how
long you have sober.
Pamela (01:20):
And thank you so much
for having me here. I'm really
excited. And I have a coursethat I am sober apps, I can tell
you exactly. Yeah, at thismoment, I had been alcohol free.
With the grace of God, I thankyou and my good friends for four
years, two months, 16 days, 19hours, 47 minutes and 40
(01:41):
seconds. I think it's great
Jen (01:44):
that you have that app,
what made you get that app?
Pamela (01:49):
You know, I don't know.
I think I got the app. After Iwas sober. I think it was
probably maybe a few weeks afterthat would be really interesting
to figure out what exactly I getthat. But I knew I knew when I
started because I intentionallystarted on midnight on New
Year's Eve. So New Year's,December 31 20 2017 At midnight,
(02:16):
and I stopped drinking althoughI was drunk at that moment, we
can talk about that. And thenwell, we'll talk about the
article that I already wrote.
Um, but that app, I love havingit oh my god, can I tell you how
much money I apparently saved,which is insane. I estimated
(02:39):
about $20 a day, which Iobviously wasn't spending $20
Every single day, but I hadmemberships to Sonoma wineries.
And when I would go out anddrink, I would spend a lot of
money on drinking out and it wasUber Ubers or the lifts back. So
I do actually kind of think thisis a somewhat valid estimate.
(03:01):
$30,000 720
Jen (03:04):
I 100%, I can totally see
that. It's amazing how much this
stuff especially like whenyou're drinking out, right? Like
you're going out, going to abar, those things are really
expensive. And when you'resomeone that has a little bit of
a drinking problem, we can drinka lot in a night. And it's like,
(03:25):
you know, it doesn't even fazeus to drop a couple $100 at a
bar. So, absolutely. Youprobably is probably even more
than that in my last. Yeah, inthe last four years. Because
real realistically, that's Imean, come on, you've probably
(03:47):
spent more than what I can'treally do math, but like $8,000
a year, eight times 432. So ninetimes four anyway, can't do
something else, but it's a lotright. So it's like you probably
did actually spend a whole lotmore than that even in a year.
On on drink
Pamela (04:07):
calories. I wish there
was a calories a bleep a pretty
improvement and sleep weightloss. Like all the metrics, it's
pretty cool when you try toactually quantify it because
it's real.
Jen (04:21):
So you this this is not a
norm for people like sometimes
we don't always have specialdays or things that we look
forward to and say this is theday that I'm picking. Usually we
don't even know the day that wegot clean was really the day we
were going to get clean. But youreally kind of made a decision
(04:42):
on December 31. From what I fromwhat I heard, right so you said
December 31. You were like okay,this is my last day drinking now
you were pretty hammered on thatday, but on your new yours
resolution was to stop drinkingand you achieve that, is that
(05:05):
what I'm to understand?
Pamela (05:06):
Yeah, and I have kept
that and so maybe I'll just back
up a little bit and share withyou why I'm I intentionally had
just had the start date andeverything. Um, and we can, you
know, please probe we can godeeper into this so on. And I'll
just share with everyone this ismy first time really publicly
talking about it. So I am scaredand I'm trying to be very brave
(05:27):
and hardest my inner badass andI will probably cry and all
feelings are
Jen (05:30):
awesome, and that is
harnessing your inner badass is
to allow that vulnerability tocome. I I am by the way, I am
just very honored that you werewilling to come on publicly, for
the first time here. This is nota small thing. And I think, you
know, in our hearts when we lookat this, it's like, yeah, but I
really want to help. And I thinkthis can help. And so I really,
(05:52):
really appreciate you being inthat vulnerable place to say,
Okay, Jim, but I'm scared. Youknow, I appreciate you
acknowledging that, because thisis very scary for us to talk. I
mean, but so thank you. Soanyway, December 31. Let's talk
about that.
Pamela (06:12):
Thank you, thank you,
thank you. And thank you for
making me feel safe. And for theinvitation and creating this
dialogue. And we need to talkabout this more, everyone needs
to talk about this more, becausethe way especially in the United
States, and frankly, incultures, cultures around the
world, and binge drinking isnormalized. It's now arised. In
India industries that I'veworked in political industry in
(06:34):
Washington, DC, it's very muchlike a part of the job and an
expectation of the job, whichfor me, it just kept
normalizing. Right? I was in alot of cultures that normalized
and valorize this and so, um,ah, okay, so that those stuck
with the decision, there's somany different directions, we
(06:55):
can go. Um, I September 2017, Iwas raped. And I was drinking
while I was raped. And ofcourse, it's not my fault. It's
not because I was raped becauseI was hurting. Absolutely not a
terrible human being man didsomething terrible to me. And I
(07:18):
don't want to call myself avictim. So it wasn't my fault.
And alcohol was involved. And Iknew um, so in 2014, I moved to
the Bay Area from Washington,DC, where I were I worked for
many years. And as I was saying,every every night, Jen for seven
(07:38):
years, I drank pretty much. Itwas literally like a part of our
job. We went to happy hours andnetworking receptions all the
time to network for work. And Imean, it was super fun. But it
was also this was just thisnormal culture. And I didn't
know the car. We got around onthe you know, the subway or cabs
then then there were Ubers andlifts and stuff. So actually,
(08:02):
no, I was I was, I was in DC,really before Uber and Lyft came
out. So it was cabs and I didn'tdrive basically. So drinking was
very conducive. And all and no,all my friends were doing that.
All my colleagues were doingthat. So then I moved to the Bay
Area, and I live in the suburbs.
And I lived in San Mateo onwhere I had to drive to go to
(08:23):
many of my friends were in SanFrancisco, I would drive to them
I would drive to Palo Alto. AndI'd have to be in this situation
of how do you safely get back inso sometimes I would leave my
car on places. And so I wasstarting, you know, I one time
on my like monthly pilgrimagebasically to Napa, Sonoma, I
(08:46):
sprained my ankle drinking andwearing my cute platform wedges.
And it's like, that was anindicator. I didn't listen to
the realizing. And again, BayArea. drinking culture is very
different from Washington, DCdrinking culture. And I was
drinking more than my friends.
(09:09):
And so all these things Istarted to notice. But then what
really kind of got me was, itwas starting to impact
friendships of mine. Friendshipsof like, over 15 years. We were
very close friends, but myinappropriate, offensive,
disrespectful drinking behaviorhad started to have fall out in
(09:33):
those friendships. And so thatwas where it was starting to
really wake me up. And I wastalking to my therapist, and I
hated her. But she was kind ofpushing me in a way and she was
great. And like, Thank God forher, but she was kind of pushing
me like, you're kind of analcohol without saying it that
way. And we're doing it a nicerway. Like, you have a problem
with drinking. Let's trymoderation. Let's try two nights
(09:54):
or two drinks a day. And I waslike learning whatever, I'll try
it. And I couldn't do it. Ithink couldn't do the moderation
of two. So all this is beforeI'm sorry if I going back and
forth.
Jen (10:06):
Okay, I have a couple of
questions. So let me ask you. So
when your therapist said, Let'stry moderation. And she goes,
let's just have a couple ofdrinks a night. What was your
initial reaction to her sayingthat?
Pamela (10:24):
And here's my first
profanity as a part of my I was,
I was like, fuck that, like, Idon't have a drinking problem,
like, fuck you. And don't tellme this, like, don't, you know,
psychoanalyze me and do allthis. And so I was I was very
(10:44):
resistant to it. I was like,Okay, well, whatever, we'll try
this this to drink thing, and Icouldn't do it.
Jen (10:50):
Right. And when you realize
that you couldn't do it, what
was going through your head atthat moment?
Pamela (11:01):
I think it was. And I
had a lot of other things going
on in my life at that time, anda lot of other big just personal
professional decisions I wasmaking, and just, you know,
stress as well. Um, so I waslike, I don't want to deal with
I, even when I did therapy inWashington, DC, what are the two
(11:21):
things that I never really gotto address, but I knew was one
of them was the striking thing.
So I think it had always kindof, I knew I drank a lot. I had
an I'm an Irish, Irish American,my last name is literally
O'Leary, I have certain I had anabsurd tolerance for a petite
young woman like me, and I couldoutrank the guys. And so again,
(11:44):
there's some stupid pride inthat, which is complicated to
but, um, and I, you know, so Iwas, I was resistant, when she
said that, and then she kind ofwas starting to say, oh, you
should go to an AA meeting, Iwas like, fuck a, I don't want
to do that, that I don't forgetthat. I'm not that I'm not
(12:05):
because I think, with so manythings in our society, it's this
or it's that, like, so for sofor rape, it's, we think it's
just someone being kidnapped inthe alley and being raped. And
that happens. And that's veryterrible. But it's also most
often acquaintance base rate,right? With someone that you
(12:26):
know, which is what happened tome. So it's the spectrum of, and
even some people we'll talk moreabout, but people didn't call my
rape rate, even people I deeplylove and that was shitty. So
with alcoholism, to alcoholism,substance abuse disorder,
whatever we want to officiallycall it, it is a spectrum to
right there are people who arevery, you know, have a very
(12:47):
severe significant form of itand do need to go to rehab or
whatever, and God help thosepeople. But I'm also an
alcoholic, and I didn't needthat. On which made it perhaps
even harder for me to identify aname that I was an alcoholic
when it's it came in, indifferent form. So and and so
(13:08):
let's, let's go here, because
Jen (13:14):
it's like you said, this,
these things, substance abuse,
issue addiction, what do youwhatever you want to call it,
there is a spectrum. And I lovethat term. I don't know if I've,
I think, you know, for a lot ofus, we look at it just like one
way or another, right? Eitheryou're this or you're that. And
it's not that right. Like a lotof people have different
(13:38):
stories. And that's why I thinkit's really important for us to
talk about more about what worksfor different people, and what
sometimes just end up having tobe right. So when you when when
she said go to an AA meeting.
What was your because it this isnot a judgment, because I
(14:00):
totally like when I firststarted because I am 12 Step
right? I did do the 12 stepsonly because literally nothing
else worked. I tried. And I wasyou know, desperate. And if I
could have done it any other wayI would have right but this was
this was my journey. And that'sthat's all that it is. But I
definitely had a lot ofresistances mostly out of just a
(14:22):
preconceived notion of what itmeant to be either an alcoholic
or an addict. So what was thatlike for you like when you think
about a people or 12 Step peopleor whatever? What comes what
picture comes to your mind?
Pamela (14:46):
Yeah, and again, I I'm
afraid to say anything because I
want to recognize that that isGod's work that is life
changing. It helps families andhelps individuals It has been
many people I love dearly arealso committed to 12 step and re
and so I have nothing but madrespect and appreciation for
(15:10):
what they do for the world. Andit has just not been a part of
my journey in four years. I'vebeen to four a meetings and I
actually think it was only thefirst year that I went, um,
yeah, okay, no, here we go. Herewe go. So, um, I hope it's okay,
that I say this, um,
Jen (15:30):
it is that I'm going to set
the context later. Because I do
I do want to make sure thatpeople understand why I'm asking
this. And then it's not ajudgement, because I do think
that, yeah, me? Absolutely. Ifyou're not part of the world. I
think, subconsciously, a lot ofpeople on the outside do create
visions and pictures of whatthat is. And it's not accurate.
(15:52):
But I think it's interesting.
And I think that's part of whatI want to dispel is those kinds
of frameworks that people haveof going, Oh, no, no, no, my
loved one couldn't possibly beone of those people. And so they
are just struggling with thisover here. They couldn't
possibly be one of those people.
(16:13):
Right, right. So I like talkingabout the pictures that we
create, or we think of when wethink about this stuff. So then
we can talk about what it isreally. And so I think it's
interesting, because I thinkit's not just you that's ever
created a picture when someonesays maybe you need to go to AA,
(16:34):
right? It's I think the majorityof us are like, that's not me.
Because we have this vision inour mind of what that is. And so
that's what I'm curious aboutwas what is your vision of what
that is not that not that it'swas accurate? And you know,
better now, right? But at thatpoint, when she said,
Pamela (16:57):
go to AA.
Jen (16:59):
What, what, what vision
pops into your mind when you
think about or when you thoughtabout that at that time?
Pamela (17:08):
Yeah, I think it's hard
for me to put myself back into
that perspective, but we'll try.
And I guess, let me I'm gonnaramble. And please bring me in
if I need to. I at this point,so we're talking, you know,
January 2018. Starting inFebruary 2012. I started a deep
fucking empowerment journey andhealing journey, I broke up with
(17:32):
a partner who I was with formany years that I was married,
lived with. And that wasdevastating. And then I had a
number of professional veryserious mishaps and so I I had
done a shitload of work. I haddone therapy, I had done
coaching, I had done landmarkeducation, I had done retreats,
(17:53):
I had done multiple healingmodalities, I spent, I went into
credit card debt, I was workingin nonprofit at this time, so I
was making zero money. But Iknew I needed support. So I
spent a lot of money and sincethank God, it's all paid off.
And it has gotten me to where Iam so I had already done a lot
of my work I had started toseriously look at my shit and I
(18:15):
think that so my first a meetingand I hope it's okay that I
named the organization becauseit's the fucking most badass
organization on the world. And Iguess it was March 2018 I'm
really want to look at the datesbut I believe I was then so
newly sober like two monthssober that was my so lesbians
(18:39):
who tech is an insanely amazingconference and community like
none other and I'm an ally and Iam part of that community. And I
won't I love how they welcomepeople obviously being the most
fucking inclusive organizationthat they are one of their kind
of events, side events thing wasactually a 12 step meeting and a
(19:02):
meeting. And one of my friendsin the community was also newly
sober. And that friend took meto my first day a meeting that
was in San Francisco in theCastro with predominantly
lesbian identified people. Andso that's pretty the most
fucking inclusive a meeting youcould ever have. And so and it
(19:28):
was it was very positive for me.
And then I think I went to maybeone or two locally and in the
cemetery area where I was livingand and when I saw that first
one was really awesome. And itmade me think, okay, I want to
go to some other ones, but thenI went to the ones around here.
(19:50):
And, again, people love hatelandmark education. It has
changed my life. And I did it.
Like I said, February 2012. Idid a whole curriculum for
living for courses and sinceI've done more courses,
actually, I my last landmarkclass was a month before I got
sober. So actually, that was ahuge thing. Yeah, the last I did
the second Communicationscourse, a month before I decided
(20:14):
to get sober and I think thatwas wildly instrumental, my
empowerment journey. And, and soyeah, we're going 1000 different
directions. And I hope thistimeline all makes sense. But so
for a here's why I don't ah,maybe I can answer that
question. Okay. You want me toanswer that one?
Jen (20:33):
Yes. Let's Well, yes.
Pamela (20:35):
Let's go there. Okay,
um, again, with nothing but love
and respect, and that for otherpeople. This is This is life
changing. And I really don'twant to disrespect it just for
me. This is not the path. I whenI have gone to meetings, I'm Oh,
yeah, I went to Okay, so I'veonly been to four. And I went to
(20:57):
two also. And another amazingcommunity. I'm a part of this
also super inclusive Renaissanceweekend also had, and that was
my one year celebration. And Ithink I have fortunately done a
lot of the healing work that Ithink 12 steps provide. Yeah.
Jen (21:22):
Hold on one second. Your
microphone went weird. Oh, can
you hear me now? Yeah. Okay. Idon't know why it just kind of
it kind of went weird. Sohopefully I remember to edit
this out. But if I don't, youknow, keep it moving to
university, I need to shut upabout as well. And here's Okay,
so let me let me make you feel alittle bit better about this.
(21:42):
Yeah. Okay. So, um, the 12steps. And I think you're
exactly right. So the 12 stepprograms are really designed to
help someone in a in a,literally,
it's step by step, get to thatplace of healing, of getting to
(22:04):
that place of empowerment touncover who you really are. And
that's, there's like a journey.
So like, if you go into selfawareness training, like you
say, like, you are already doingthe self awareness, you are
already doing the empowerment.
Most people that go into 12steps have had zero have any of
these, they tried the therapythey've done, like, but you
(22:24):
know, most of the therapy didn'twork, because they were just
telling the therapist what theywanted to hear. And it wasn't
really ever a true healingjourney. Right? Yeah. 12 steps
is designed to be able to dothat from a peer to peer
perspective, right. These arenot people that are trained on
how to, you know, empowersomeone or help someone heal.
(22:48):
These are not therapymodalities, these, this is a
spokes on a wheel in terms ofit's not the end all be all for
everything a person to helpthemselves, it is just a way to
lift people up in anempowerment. So what I'm hearing
from you is you already had abig foundation of someone that
(23:09):
takes when you go into the 12step programs I've been in there
for for a long time, the amountof work that you did was of that
of someone that has probably sixor seven years, so we're already
that has only done the 12 steps.
So you're saying that it waslike Well, I'm I'm kind of in a
little bit of a different path.
(23:29):
But I'm still doing the thingsthat AA or NA, or any of the 12
steps. If I was to do that, thisis what I would be doing. I just
found it in a little bit of adifferent way. Through through a
different role, right, but it'sstill the same core concepts.
(23:49):
Yeah, yeah. As providing so Ijust want to kind of help and
make that you know, have peopleunderstand that this is where
sometimes people's paths candiverge, but the core concepts
of the reasons why the 12 stepsand any other what doesn't
matter, Celebrate Recovery,smart recovery, dharma recovery,
(24:13):
this is what we're doing. Soyou're you found that in a
different way. So but it justwasn't a and that's okay.
Pamela (24:23):
And I and I think it's
it's how are you entering the
journey right and and maybemaybe if I had had a different
path that they would have beenthat entry point into my my
healing journey on but Iunfortunately had had you know
landmark and other things comein to my life and I had very
intentional create my ownempowerment journey this
(24:46):
business I'm now building todaybut I'm and when I, when I went
to AA meetings, it made it Itmade it kept kind of I felt like
me It kept it in this like, Oh,I am an alcoholic. This is so
bad. I fucked up. What am Ilike? Like it kept? There wasn't
(25:12):
an element for me. And just inmy limited experience, there
wasn't this deep. Possibility.
Moment. And, and, and, and, andagain, I'm a big fan of your
language creates your world. Andif we're if we're stuck even if
you know I'm an alcoholic, Iprefer to say I'm sober. Sure I
am an alcoholic, but I'm sober.
(25:35):
Right? It's the same word butdamn sober is is possibility
it's, it's, it's clean, it'sstrong, it's empowered, I want
to,
Jen (25:44):
I want to attach to that
work. Right? And I think and
this is where like, sometimes wehave to look at the frameworks
under which language we'reoperating under. Right? So and
I'll just give you an example.
So I don't I don't identify.
Like, my whole identity isn'taround me being like an addict.
(26:09):
Right. But in terms ofcontinuing to say. Like, I
remember when I first said thosewords and really meant it. To
me, that was an empoweringmoment. Yeah, right, where it
was like, I feel free for thefirst time in my life to be able
(26:29):
to embrace the fact that I havethis issue, right? That's the
framework under which i ipersonally operate under. Not
everyone operates under thatframework, right. So they may
want to use a different wordthat makes them feel empowered
(26:49):
and free and strong inthemselves. Right. And so it
doesn't have to be that now the12 step programs have, you know,
we have our social, unwrittensocial contracts of language and
verbiage and that anymore tocreate that sense of community,
and that we're all this same,not so much to keep us
(27:09):
necessarily down, but I hearwhat you're saying, you're
going, I want to feel thisempowerment, I want to feel like
I don't have to constantly beheld back in my life. And I
think that's really important.
And I think that's really whatwe want to all get to. And not
everyone has it? Honestly,sometimes. And this is why I
(27:31):
think it's really important forpeople to have recovery mentors,
aka sponsors, or whatever,especially in the 12 steps.
Because, you know, if not, it'skind of like the blind leading
the blind. So, so, you know, Ithink you're, you're on on that,
though, have an AA is a littlebit more of a build, like I
(27:56):
said, you have to really go fora really long time to start even
kind of feeling thatempowerment, and, and it's
mostly because of where peopleare coming in at zero healing,
completely destroyed. They don'thave money to invest in like
other things like, Oh, youbecause you had even mentioned,
(28:21):
I put myself in debt to get thishealing to get this empowerment.
Well, some people, they don'teven have that option.
Pamela (28:32):
Yeah. I had access to
credit cards. Yeah.
Jen (28:36):
Yeah. And so I think I
think quite a few other people
that I have known have taken adifferent journey, where it's
like, I really want to change mymindset. And so they go get like
mindset coaching, or they goget, you know, empowerment, they
go get other things in differentforms. And this is the free
version of Yeah, yeah, I havethat. Right, that takes years
(29:01):
and years to develop a goodunderstanding of what the 12
step program really is. So but Ilove No, but I love the path
that you did take. I love that.
Because I think that's where weall want to be, is in that place
of doing the courageous thingempowering ourselves, how are we
(29:25):
speaking about ourselves in thelanguage and I don't cosign all
of the language that we haveused in 12 Step programs, I
don't I'm like ah, that's notthat's not good. But you know,
we're we'll work on that.
Pamela (29:44):
But you know, in all of
this, it's also funny and I'm
taking so many differenttangents so Ramya but last
night, I was literally talkingto my best friend on about how
I'm considering going to abecause the final frontier I
feel like For my sobriety andagain, it's an ever evolving
fucking final journey. But I'm,I'm really struggling with
(30:06):
sobriety and romance andintimacy right now. And I do
think I've knock on wood, Ithink I'm good Irish Catholic,
myself. And I think I have Ireally, I'm come to terms with
my rape. But I don't know how todo romance and dating so far.
And I think having a sobercommunity. So literally last
(30:27):
night, I was talking to myroommate, maybe I need to go to
AA, because I know there aresome specific conversations,
specifically around sobriety andintimacy. And so maybe I will
become an A person who knows,
Jen (30:39):
well, and I, I'm so
grateful for like, even for
like, my, my, my recoverymentors in the past, which we
call sponsors and whatnot,because they have and it's,
it's, it's always like, when yougo into a community, no matter
what, you still have to filterthrough and find your people,
like, everyone is for everyone,right? So like, it's like, okay,
(31:00):
what are we looking for? Thisperson seems to kind of
understand and have that and canhelp me. Because I will tell
you, man, that that's one of thefirst things that we really hone
in on as part of the 12 steps isthat relationship and intimacy
because we're so destroyed inthat area in so many ways, and
we've done so much damage, wedon't have a good relationship
(31:23):
with ourselves sexual health isout the window. I mean, it's,
it's the romance, it's hard. Imean, we do we spend a lot of
time talking about the firstawkward, you know, sexual
moments sober for like, thefirst time it is hard, it's
awkward, I have a next monthwill be 15 years. I, I don't, I
(31:51):
still don't have it. That'sstill trying to figure, I'm
still trying to figure my shitout. In that area. This is the
hardest area that we have. Andit's something that we talk
about the most. Because this isthe one that we I think across
the board, that we struggle inthe most, that we have to help
(32:14):
each other and pull ourselvestogether and finding other
people that can relate to us andbe like, totally been there.
This is what has helped me froma peer to peer, right? Because
they can really fully embraceand understand the challenges,
the obstacles, the feelings, andthen what to do about it. So,
(32:37):
you know, it's it's definitely athing though, you're right. It's
a thing, as it gets veryunderestimated, and under talked
about, as part of what is goingto help someone the most, I
don't think we talk about itenough. I don't even think we
talk about it enough. In 12steps, I think people are, this
(33:00):
is where it's like the blindleading the blind. But, you
know, when I'm mentoringsomeone, this is a, this is one
of our first conversations,because like, we got to talk
about it. You know, I don't needto know every detail of your sex
life. But we do need to talkabout it. So cuz we I was like,
We got to make sure you'repracticing healthy sex, you
(33:24):
know, have healthy sexualrelationships with other people.
And it's not always like that,so can be challenging. So
anyway, tangent, um, we lovewhat we do love tangents. But
this again, so we know we'vespent a lot of time talking
about a that wasn't your path.
And let's talk about because itwasn't your path. Um, let's talk
(33:48):
about the first 90 days that yougot sober.
Pamela (33:57):
Um, I think those were
the perhaps well, I don't know
if I would say those are thehardest. Um, I think the
hardest, almost exactly a yearlater. Act it was actually under
it was almost exactly a yearthat I was hitting sobriety that
I found out my dad had terminalcancer. And so I would say same
(34:20):
sober during his last six monthson Earth were the hardest, but
the third first 90 days, theywere hard. And I noticed myself
getting very irritable. And andI practice restorative and yin
yoga. My friend Robin Jaffe isan amazing instructor. And if I
didn't go to her class at leastonce a week, I would fucking
(34:43):
lose my mind. So we're startingin yoga was very important for
me, and I was like, I have togo. Um, but I just remember
being very irritable. Um, again,I had it Yeah, we didn't we
didn't go through, I'll just dolike a one minute recap.
(35:04):
Basically, I realized I haddrinking problems before I was
raised on from moving to the BayArea having to drive and then
talking to my therapist havingthe loss of friendships that I
got raped, and frankly, I havebeen raped before rape is again
a spectrum on and on form of onunwanted digital penetration.
(35:25):
But for whatever this was thetime I finally called it a rape.
And alcohol was involved. So forme, that was a big like, Oh,
shit. So and there were a numberof things. So that was September
2017, was a rape November, someof my girlfriends my clothes,
some of my best friends arelike, and they drank a lot, too.
And they were exploring theirrelationship with alcohol.
(35:45):
They're like Jayla was so hot.
She's 50. She doesn't look likeshe's 50. She doesn't drink.
Let's stop drinking January 1 toactually Jen. That's what I
think. I'll put the gym and Iwas like, when they said that. I
was like, I don't know if I cando it. I don't want to do it.
But then I thought about it andgoing into the My training of
glamour education was like, ifyou're going to get sober, why
fucking weights start. Then Istarted around thanks, November,
(36:09):
Thanksgiving, unintentionallywent down to South Africa in
December, and I was like, Well,you can't be in South Africa in
Cape Town and not be amazingwines. So I chose to drink. And
then I that's the whole storythat I wrote about. And in
fucked up, hit rock bottom onNew Year's and I was like, and
(36:31):
then by myself this necklace,you can read the story and the
thing I wrote but like, that wasI'm never drinking again. So at
during those 30 days, those 90days or whatever the I had had
enough, like, I'm going to stop.
Oh, shit, I'm going to stop allI'm really going to stop. So I
(36:51):
had not enough of that, like,Fuck, I'm not. And I bought
myself this very expensivenecklace that I wear every day.
And actually, in those first 30days after sobriety, one of my
girlfriends who was intogemstones and stuff, one of my
best friends like one of mysisters, she's like, Oh,
Tanzanite is the gemstone ofalcoholism. I was like, Are you
(37:14):
effing kiddingme? Universe? It's like,
yeah, I was like I did. Andagain, I don't, I kind of been
open to all of that stuff. It'snot why I bought it. But wearing
this every day reaffirms it forme, so. So those 90 days were
tough. They haven't been thetoughest of my sobriety. The
(37:36):
toughest was when my dad wasdying. But it was really fucking
hard. Those first 90 days, I'llpause there.
Jen (37:42):
So so this is this is you
bring up a couple of really
interesting things. Because Ithink when I'm talking to
families that have loved onesand substance abuse, they get
into recovery, they kind of knowthe beginning stages are going
to be a little off. And I thinkthere's an underestimation of
(38:03):
how challenging it is when wehave to start going through real
life things. Like, you know,your dad getting sick. And you
said he passed. Yeah, and thoseare the things and it doesn't
matter if you have are in thefirst year, or if you have 10
years or whatever. Those arereally, really challenging. I
(38:27):
also think it's reallyinteresting because you brought
up a year and I I've done a lotof like blogging and talking
about what happens to someone ingeneral, not even when like even
on like, if there's nothingreally going on in their lives,
how what you just describedhappens to almost all of us, and
I don't think the familiesreally understand that it's not
(38:51):
a straight line, like recovery,and I'm sure you can attest to
this. Your sobriety journeyprobably hasn't been a straight
line. It's been a little bit alittle wavy Ray you know, you
get your ups you got downs,sometimes you're moody sometimes
you're not, you know, it's justand I think that's really hard
(39:13):
for families to understandbecause it's like, well, your
life just doesn't snap into somenormal you know, straight line
up just because you you guyssober we're actually having to
deal with what's really going onwith this now. What are the
emotions that our words werechallenged with?
Pamela (39:34):
It's a permanent, it's a
permanent grief is permanent and
sobriety is permanent. These aretwo kind of weird, funky
permanent states that I amexperiencing, talking
simultaneously. But like, myevery drink, I say no. So every
time every drink I say no to itsaying yes, I love myself. I'm
(39:54):
strong enough and I am going tohave weirdly brag about this. I
like to smell my friends.
strengths. So I'm still do goout to bars and go into and
again, that's hard and we cantalk about that. But I love
smelling their drink and havingit in my hand and I'm like, Oh,
this smells really good. Andbeing like, no. Yeah, to have my
greatest fucking weakness in thepalm of my hand. And to be able
(40:18):
to say, No, that's like, mybiggest power move. And I love
doing that. Yeah,
Jen (40:27):
and I think I think that's,
you know, this is where it's, it
doesn't always look the same foreveryone. I don't. I mean, I can
go into a bar, like, just theother day. I was out having
lunch with a friend, and she'snot in recovery or anything. And
she got a drink, and she couldnot tell for the life of her.
(40:48):
She wanted to change vodka towhiskey. And she couldn't tell
when it came if they actuallychanged it or not. So it was
like, well, let's see. And Itook a whiff. And I said, that
is definitely whiskey. She'slike, okay, good to know.
Because it's like, she got like,some nose blind. I don't go
around doing that a lot. But itwas like, Oh, I know that smell.
That is whiskey, that isdefinitely not vodka. She goes,
(41:11):
Okay, good. They put they madethe drink. Like I like. You
know, that? Right? Right. So,um, you know, I think I think
this is, this is one of thethings is we have to figure out
what works. And I think when,like, for me, I'm probably not
going to go into a crack houseand be like, this. This is
(41:34):
great. I'm so strong. Right. Um,but for other people, I think I
think that is a great place tobe to say, I have, you know, my,
my, the thing I'm saying no to,I'm going to consistently, just
say no, and especially in thatworld, that is, as we were
(41:59):
talking about in the beginning,it's so such a social norm. I
mean, when you really thinkabout how people grow up,
thinking alcohol is the end allbe all. I mean, I like I
remember growing up, my familycould not wait to turn 21. So I
could feel like I was part ofthe family and drink those kinds
(42:22):
of thoughts. Right. And it's,it's so powerful when we get to
stand on our own and say, That'sjust not my path. And I'm okay
with it. It's like a fullacceptance of it. So I think
that's just an amazing, I thinkyou have an amazing story of
(42:43):
what it can look like, forsomeone who really just commits
to themselves and say, I'm goingto do this thing. Now. In order
for me to achieve that goal,what do I have to do for myself?
And I think that's what you'vedone, right? You're like, Okay,
I'm going to do this thing. Andnow I'm going to figure out how
(43:05):
to make that happen.
Pamela (43:09):
Thank you. It's, it's,
it's, and with the grace of God,
I'm Catholic with a deepaffinity for Judaism and I love
praying with my Muslim friendsas well. And Hindu friends. It
is an it's a commitment to anever evolving version of my best
self. Every drink, I say no tois saying yes to I love myself,
(43:33):
and brings coming sober andstaying sober is the best
decision I have made in my life.
Jen (43:40):
Yeah, yeah. And hasn't been
easy every day. And yet, still
the best decision,
Pamela (43:48):
still the best decision
and you know, every year is,
I do a little celebration andcommemoration kind of thing at
the at the moment that ithappened. And I hope to God
every year, it gets bigger andbigger, bigger, but I could
relapse at any moment. Any, if Ijust drink one drink, it's all
(44:11):
gone. And that's the easiestfucking thing to do. And I've
wanted and I want to do that allthe time. Um, but I hope I never
relapse and God help those whodo and it's a part of the
journey, but I hope not to forthat to happen. Yeah.
Jen (44:26):
Yeah. And, and I think
here's, here's what I admire is
when we go into that place ofthinking that it can't happen to
us or it wouldn't happen to usor there's just no way I would
go back there and, you know, allthose kinds of things. I think
that does us a disservice. And Ithink what's really important
(44:49):
for for us and for you, and whatI like to hear is someone that
can say, I can relapse at anytime. It doesn't matter. It
doesn't matter how long I I'vehad sober it only matters what I
do today, because all of that,you know, doesn't matter if I
don't constantly wake up andmake a decision every single
(45:11):
day. And, you know, at thispoint, like, I don't think about
it every single day, but I dotake steps back and go, Where is
where am I at in my recoveryright now. And if something
really traumatic was to happen,say, you know, a parent or
whatever is my recovery, whereit needs to be in order to
(45:33):
support myself through somethinglike that? And if the answer is
no, then I need to figure myshit out. You know, and that's
kind of my gauge of where I'mat. You know, Pamela, I just
really, really, again, want tothank you, we're kind of coming
up on time, I do want to justtalk a little bit about your
(45:55):
blossom badass, because you ownyour own empowerment company.
And I love that idea. So justtell me a little bit about that
idea and what you do.
Pamela (46:07):
Thank you, and we may
change the name I'm still
figuring that out, but Idefinitely Will these be like a
hashtag tagline and I'mtrademarking that soon. So, um,
and you know what, now that Ishared what I shared with you
earlier, I'm like, Oh, thismakes a lot of sense. And it's
it parallels my sobriety journeybecause I'm, you know, I'm not
yet married, I hope to bemarried someday. But my sobriety
(46:30):
is the biggest vow that I'vemade to myself and and as I've
talked about, and thank you forletting me share my journey has
been this kind of create yourown adventure of empowerment and
healing with 1000 modalitiesand, and I with with the blossom
badass, I think I want to focuson on, I identify as a cisgender
(46:52):
woman, and I want to focus onstarting primarily with women
and those who identify as such,and then ultimately would love
to serve all forms ofunderrepresented communities.
But how I especially when Iserve people who are starting
their journey, right how whenthey're and I, I identify as a
(47:12):
recovering alcoholic, I identifyas a recovering perfectionist, I
identify as a recoveringinsecure over achiever and all
that perfectionism and secureover achievement is definitely
tied to the alcoholism. And thatcould be a whole conversation
but and I really want toparticularly serve insecure
overachievers, and on theirjourney, especially career women
(47:35):
who are Go Go, go go go andburning the fuck out? How can we
help you to blossom as a badassand to commit to this ever
evolving version of your bestself? And, you know, there'll be
a variety of products in thefuture, but I my first offering
will be an empowerment retreats.
So right kind of how landmarkwas for me of like kick starting
that journey, and exposing tolike, I don't even know all the
(47:57):
modalities that were out thereand options, and everyone's
journey is different. But I wantyou to know, what are the
options out there for you interms of healers, in terms of
practitioners, classes, andeverything. So, we will guide
people on this journey ofdefining success and happiness
on their own terms and lovingthemselves, thus, being able to
(48:18):
actualize their potential in theworld and make it a better
place.
Jen (48:24):
Well, and I think, I think
that I just love that because so
many people, you know, theythey'll, they'll say, like, Oh,
I know that certain things needto change or whatever. And it's
like, where, where do you landthen? So it's like, okay, I have
these changes. I'm not even 100%clear on what the changes are. I
(48:45):
just know that something's gotto give something needs to
change. And it doesn't have tobe around alcohol or anything
like that. But it's like theperfectionism that you
mentioned, you know, the thenoise, the brain chatters that
we have the voices that tell usthat we're no good. And we're
not enough and all of thosethings, and I think that it's
important to go, Okay, we'regoing to, we're going to kind of
(49:09):
help you start to really blossominto who you really are, so that
you can get away from all of thestuff that's holding you back.
Because sometimes we're like,but that's just me, but is it?
And that's the question is islike you don't have to accept
(49:30):
certain things if they're notserving you. And then it's like,
well, what do we do about it?
It's not an identity thing. AndI think that's where we get
confused. It's like and I thinka lot of people we've talked a
lot about like anxiety anddepression and it's like, but
you don't have to, like youdon't have to stay stuck in that
identity of it. Like there wecan get out of that we can
(49:51):
blossom into clearing thosethings out and being more
grounded and going okay, like Ihave and anxious moment what's
coming up, like, we don't haveto stay in the surface level, we
can go a little bit deeper, whatI hear you offering is the very
same thing that like recovery,empowerment, motivation, any of
those things, the core conceptsare all the same. How do you
(50:16):
stop getting in your own way?
Pamela (50:23):
And you absolutely 100%
There's parallels between all of
that, and that empowerment isnot a solo endeavor. Right? I
mean, beauty of a and many ofthese programs is to find that
safe space, where you've been inyour head forever, and thinking,
Oh, my God, and to know thatother people are having those
same thoughts and to be able totalk about it. That's what I
(50:45):
want to be able to create. Yeah,yeah. And I
Jen (50:47):
think I think, more and
more this one, I want to say
about the 12 steps, and thenwe'll we'll kind of close this
out. But they gave me a very,very strong foundation. But I
you know, we have to kind ofstart fine tuning things we have
to put in, you know, the, thewalls and the electricity. And
sometimes I think people forgetthat, there's more than just
(51:10):
that, it's like, if you reallywant to take it to the next
level, you're gonna have to findsomeone that can get you to the
next level. And that's what Ihave found for me is is like, a
lot of my journey is not part ofthe 12 steps, but it definitely
gave me the support that Ineeded. But to really get to
(51:30):
where I've been, in terms ofbeing very comfortable with
myself, accepting myselfempowering myself, the courage,
the the language, stuff that youtalked about took another, it
was, you know, something a lotmore like what blossom badass
is, and that's what it lookedlike for me. And so I definitely
(51:51):
encourage anyone that's like,Okay, I am, I need my,
something's got to give, I needmy life to change. And I need
someone who can get me to whereI want to be. And help me figure
out what that even is. It soundslike that's what you offer. So
that could be someone, you know,families out there that are
(52:13):
listening. Maybe you're like, Iam sick and tired of being sick
and tired, I need to changesomething in my life,
something's got to give themtired of sitting around. And
just in despair, right. So Ithink they should definitely
reach out to you, I will haveall your information in my show
notes. So I definitely encourageyou. But again, I thank you for
coming on. Thank you, again,just for allowing this to be
(52:37):
your first time that you'vereally publicly, I think this
was great. We went into so manyplaces, and we could go into so
many more. And I love thosekinds of conversations where
they kind of just zigzag and theconversation goes, you know
where it goes. Because we talkedabout a lot of really important
things. It's like you said, wegot to talk about this thing,
these things. So thank you somuch.
Pamela (52:58):
Thank you. Can I just
share a few words? Yeah,
absolutely. Number one, thankyou very much for giving me this
opportunity and making me feelsafe and comfortable and
creating a dialogue. For so manypeople, whoever's listening to
this and so you for yourcommitment to changing this in
the world. Thank you, Jen. Toanyone listening, I'm happy to
connect with you, you know,you'll find me in different
(53:19):
ways. And thank you forlistening and for, for
everyone's curiosity andexploring this topic for
themselves and people that theycare about. And, and I think
there's many women like me, andI think we're kind of an
archetype of alcoholics thataren't necessarily you know, I
don't want to blame Greek life,but I was a sorority girl, I was
(53:43):
the political professional. I ama high achieving stressed out,
ambitious career woman, insecureoverachiever, a recovering
perfectionist, I think there's alot of us who don't recognize
that that's substance abusedisorder, that's actually
alcoholism. And even our cultureglorifies you know, all the
drinking culture, champagne forbreakfast and everything. Like,
(54:07):
I think, again, it's everyone tomake that decision on their on
their own journey. But I thinkfor people to I think there's
many women like me, who justnever recognize it as such, and
I hope they come to their ownself compassion journey of does
this serve me or does that not?
Or could I live a different way?
Jen (54:27):
Yeah, absolutely. And, and
I think this is that's a really
important thing is finding moreand more ways of that's not in
the 12 steps because I justdon't see, you know, the local
Congresswoman or the DA or theADA down, you know, the row
(54:48):
they're not You're not going tofind them.
I don'tknow judgment but you're not
going to find them in 12 Stepmeeting. You're just not they
but they do. It doesn't meanthey don't need a place to kind
of go you No, I want to kind oftake step away from this, the
social drinking and all this andreally kind of not wake up in
the morning and feel like I haveto have my mimosa.
Pamela (55:14):
I know they exist. And I
almost ran for office and I did
run for office. And that's why Ialso didn't talk about it for a
long time. And so I help all thewomen who are in those positions
corporate and even, you know,corporate political, who don't
feel safe. I pray they findthose spaces. Yeah,
Jen (55:28):
right. And I hope maybe
someday you rethink about
running for office. I think youhave a lot to offer. Thank you.
Not just, you know, not just ina, you know, recovery or
anything like that, but just,you know, overall, I think I
think you have a lot to offerand you can really help a lot of
people just kind of be you know,how do we be our best selves,
(55:50):
even if we're a politician?
Pamela (55:53):
Thank you will YouTube
to consider that?
Jen (55:56):
Maybe yeah,
I've never thought about it. Um,
but anyway, thank you again, forcoming on. And thank you for
listening to this podcast. Ifyou want to listen to more, or
find more information out aboutthis podcast more of what I do
to help families you can gocheck out my page at unbreakable
boundaries podcast.com. That'swhere you will find the show
notes to this podcast. This thepodcast page. It's full of other
(56:18):
great podcasts just like thisone, and just a great resource
to look through. And pleaseremember to share this podcast
with others because you neverknow who may need to hear this
people are often hiding theirbattles in this arena and
sharing is a great way toprovide this valuable resource
to a person you may not evenknow who needs it. And don't
forget, there is always hope,even when things seem the most
(56:41):
hopeless