Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Welcome back to the unbreakableboundaries podcast with your
host myself, Jennifer Maneely.
In this episode, I am just tooexcited, I have a guest with me,
her name is Michelle Rogers, andshe is another. Remember last
podcast we had Lisa on. And shewas amazing. And she told us her
story about her son, which wasincredibly sad. And this is her
(00:23):
partner in the share project ofthe people that go out. And they
tell people and they supportpeople who have lost their loved
ones and not even just losttheir loved ones. But if you
have a loved one, with asubstance abuse issues, they do
all sorts of different things,just to really kind of get out
(00:46):
there and say you are not alone.
And they get out into thecommunity and say, We are here
for you. And we want to supportyou, and we want to help you.
And so Michelle, thank you somuch for coming on to this. I'm
so excited about thisconversation.
Well, thank you so much forhaving me.
(01:08):
And the reason why I'm excitedabout this conversation, is
because I think it's such avaluable thing to have people
that are willing to talk aboutthe hardest journeys, I am not
excited about the situation thatbrought you here. I'm already
you know, it's it's, it's Idon't want to sound insensitive.
But I am excited in the sensethat we're here talking about
(01:34):
something that I know is goingto help a lot of people and I
know you're going to bring thatto the table.
Thank you. And that's ourmission is just to help people
and help them understand that weknow what a lonely journey this
is. And there are people outthere who will love you through
(01:54):
it and support you through it.
Yes, absolutely. So I think forthis podcast, what would be the
best place to kind of kick usoff? And I love where we're
going is that moment that yourson said, Mom, I have a problem.
(02:18):
Can you just share with theaudience?
What was your hang for you? Isure can. And I'll start by
saying my son was already anadult in his early 20s. And he
was college educated, he owned ahome. He was financially on his
(02:41):
own. And he called me one day.
And he said, Mom, I need to talkto you. And it's really
important. And I said sure, noproblem. And I was running some
errands. So I stopped and pickedhim up. And we were in my car in
the Ingles parking lot. And Istopped my car and he looked at
me and he said, Mom, I need toborrow some money. And I was
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like flabbergasted. I said, Whatdo you mean you need to borrow
money. He had never borrowedmoney from me. And he said, Mom,
I can't pay my mortgage. I havea problem. And literally when he
said that it took my breathaway. He told me that he had a
substance problem you at thattime. His problem was pain
(03:30):
pills, mostly Aussies andPercocet. He had gone through a
sinus surgery and became that'show his addiction started. But
unbeknownst to me, he had beenwhat I call a functioning drug
addict. And I don't like to usethat word, but for the sake of
(03:55):
this conversation, I will he wasfunctioning, working paying
bills. And when he came to mewas because he no longer could
function. Because he had spentall his money. And he told me
that he had spent all his moneyon bills, and he needed help.
Honestly, Jen, I had no idea. Ithought do I take him to the
(04:20):
emergency room? Do I call hisfamily doctor and get her I was
clueless and overwhelmed.
And so one of the one of thequestions I have in my mind is
because this is a little bitlike unique because it sounds
like you know he was in his 20swent to college, graduated
(04:42):
college, owns a home out therejust doing the adulting life
you're doing your life right.
Now, a lot of times like when Iask people I'm like, Are there
any red flags prior to this orwas it just like, out of the
blueHonestly, it sounds naive, I
promise. I'm not naive. It wasout of the blue. In high school,
(05:05):
in high school, my son got introuble one time, one time for
drinking at a football game.
Obviously, we didn't make thatbig of a deal about it because
he was in 11th grade. And notthat we condone that he got
(05:26):
punished. But it wasn't really aflag, he didn't have a drinking
problem. He did not have asubstance problem. He was an
exceptional athlete. He was anexceptional student. He was very
ambitious. When he bought hishouse, he was only 22 years old,
still a college student. And hedid it all on his own. There
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weren't any red flags. So itreally took me by surprise. And
also, I guess I was a little bitnaive. Because honestly, I saw
it. Treatment once we found outwhat to do. And we found a
treatment program. I honestlythought it was going to be he'll
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go for 21 days, come home, andhe'll be fine.
Well, and of course, whywouldn't you because his whole
life as far as like you knew,knew it, he was okay. It's just
like all the sudden, you know,and look those pain pills even
after the sinus surgery andstuff. They can be physically
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addicting, why wouldn't you justthink like, Hey, he's gonna go
in, they're gonna sober him up,or they're gonna clean them up,
and he's gonna get out and hislife as he knows it, the normal
life is just going to kind ofcontinue moving on. Why wouldn't
you have any otherthoughts as to? That was our
expectation. Yes, that was. Andso what really happened. So what
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really happened was he went totreatment. And he came back, he
went right back into his life.
And we thought everything wasgoing smooth. When, in reality,
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about a month later, maybe twomonths later, he experienced his
first relapse. And it was rightthat into the same cycle, you
went to a GAC, which is in BlackMountain View, and then back to
treatment. And from there, thatstarted our journey of this
(07:43):
cycle that i is heartbreaking,not just for the family, but for
my son, it was devastating forhim, because he tried so hard.
But he went through this cycleof getting sick, which a lot of
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people are recovering, get sick,because their body becomes so
physically dependent on thismedication, and going to rehab,
getting clean, doing well.
Getting back into their routine,relaxing, and it's like a
vicious cycle. And what happenedwith my son was the pill. The
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the cost of buying pills on thestreet was so high. Every time
he relapsed, it seemed like itgot worse and worse every time.
And it became such an expensiveaddiction. It was actually a
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drug dealer that introduced myson to heroin, about two or
three years into his addiction.
And he said, Hey, Clay, it'scheaper. And you can get it
easier. Because pills werebecoming harder and harder to
(09:07):
get, because of the crackdown ondoctors over prescribing paying
bills. And it was easy to getthe pain pills at one time
because these drug dealers couldjust doctor shop, right and get
these prescriptions. So everytime my son would relapse,
actually, the indicator for mewas always stuff started
(09:30):
disappearing. And I don't meanmyself. My son never took
anything from me his own stuff.
I would go to his house and hisTV would be gone. You're like
where's your TV? Where's your TVin? His hunting rifle would be
gone, his bow would be gone. Hisfly fishing holes would be gone.
And then this was part of thisvicious cycle. We were in my
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husband I would rush from pawnshop to pawn shop to try to get
his stuff back. Because some ofthe stuff like the fly fishing
poles, and hunting bows, thingslike that were sentimental. And
we wouldn't rush and get them, Iwould hide them, I would swear I
wouldn't give them back to him.
(10:14):
And until he got better, and hewould get better, I give them
back, they would disappearagain. And this was a several
year cycle that we went through.
And so when, as you're goingthrough this cycle, what what
were some of the questions youwere asking yourself?
(10:36):
Doing? So you know, I would me,dishonest if I didn't say that.
I question myself, Where Wheredid I go wrong? It's very easy
to blame yourself if you're theparent. But I advocate for the
(10:58):
message that addiction is not afailure of parenting. It's not
even a moral failing on theperson's. But it did. Obviously,
that was my first like, how didthis happen? Yeah. But most of
all, Jen, honestly, it was soterribly lonely. And it was so
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painful to go through. I didn'teven want to admit it to my own
immediate family. Like, how doyou tell somebody, and we were
at the age where my friends, andI've got lifelong friends. And
I've got local friends. And weand this whole social media
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almost makes it worse. Becausewe were at our middle age, my
husband and I were reachingmiddle age. And our friends were
either planning collegegraduations, or weddings, or
even birth of theirgrandchildren. And I was
planning treatment for my son,and running around to the pawn
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shops trying to getup and running around the pawn
shops trying to get thewhat you had kind of envisioned
your life being when you thoughtabout having a son grow up, do
the college thing, go live outof the world, we're
anticipating, you know, havingthe grandkids and just
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you had a serious girlfriend,they had been together for five
years, they were planning afamily like we, I felt like
until substance hit my family, Ifelt like we were checking off
all the boxes. And this was akid who wrote a business plan
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for he wanted to open a flyfishing shop. And he wanted to
be like a tour guide in westernNorth Carolina for fly fishing.
And that was his business planwhen he was at Western Carolina
University. Like this was a kidwho was checking off his own
boxes, let alone me checking offhis box. So it was it was really
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a disruption to our whole world.
And lonely is really the word Ialways use. Because, you know, I
would run into people, whetherthey were old friends, by old
friends is teachers. And ofcourse, everybody knows it's
like, oh, house here, but nobodysaw that way. And it's a small
town. Right? So I learned How'sclay doing 100%? That question,
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how's quite an immediately Iwould literally, it would take
my breath. How am I going toanswer it this time? And I
always gave up a pretty standardanswer, which was he moved to
South Carolina to live closer tohis dad, most replace friends
and our friends knew that hisdad was active duty Army and
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moved around. And that wasalways kind of an easy out for
me. I could just say, Oh, hemoved to the coast to live by
his dad or because I heard yousay he's in treatment, because
now he's going from deals toheroin. How do you how do you
interject that in a conversationin a social setting?
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How do you how it's hard, andit's hard? How do because it's
like, this is something likewhen I'm working with families
because this is like the mostdreaded question they have.
They're like, I hate thisquestion. I hate running into
people like no, they almost wantto like they they see someone in
the grocery store. And they knowthey're going to ask and they
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say oh, I want to turn my cartride around just so I don't 100%
Absolutely. And you know, Idon't know if it's just because
of my work through the shareproject. My My passion for
advocacy, but now I have noshame in it. And it's not I was
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never ashamed of my son, right.
I never gave up hope and my son,I never lost faith. I was sad. I
was sad that he was sick. I wassad that I couldn't help him. I,
so I will share with you that Iam, what I have learned is
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called a helicopter mom, I wasthat hovering mom, I was
probably a little overbearingwith my two boys, I raised two
boys, I was involved in theirlife, whether it was helping
with their baseball teams, orbeing on the PTA, or I knew it
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all, I knew all their friends, Iknew their friend's parents, I
knew what they were doing. Andthis was the first time in my
son clays life that I felt outof control. I had no control
over that situation. And thatwas devastating to me.
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And so when you think about thatsituation, because you brought
up something important, you saidyou didn't have any shame
towards him? What was theirshame? And what kind of was it
for you?
So I, as I mentioned previously,there there was, there were
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times of me questioning, wheredid I go wrong as his mom,
because I was the primary care,my ex husband, my his dad, and I
divorced when the kids wereyoung, we did our parent very
well. But I was the primarycaregiver of the children, they
live with me. So obviously, Ifelt like people would judge me
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and they would judge my son. Andthe mama bear in me, didn't want
people judging my son, I wasmore worried about him being
judged than me being judge. Andit was just a struggle. It was a
struggle on how to navigatethose waters. Because there's no
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handbook for it. There's not abook that says how to take care
of your child that's addicted todrugs. Maybe there is I didn't
read it.
Well, and there really I mean,that's it there. There may be
like you said, but you know,it's really hard to either find
it find one that you know, soone of the things that I've done
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a lot of reading in this field,right? Just so I could have a
handbook to hand to families,right? Because it's like, I
already give you the handbook.
So I wanted to go find it,right. And what I found is
there's all sorts of variousdifferent things and a lot of
really great information.
There's a lot of really goodeducational pieces out there.
(18:06):
There are but you know, what Ifound is, you might have one
therapist or author or doctortell you to do it this way. And
another this way. Like some maysay, try the tough love, that's
what works. You know, and we'veall heard the, they have to hit
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rock bottom, they won't get helpthem as they hit rock bottom.
And then you've got those thatsay you've got to meet them
where they are, and be gentle.
And it's also confusing itis and that's exactly what I was
gonna say is, when I go throughit, I'm like, How is anyone
gonna have feel like they haveconfidence in any of their
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decisions? With all of thethings that and there are
there's so it's almost likethere's too much out there, but
not enough about so what do I doand when I try this, this
doesn't quite land like Ianticipated and what's really
going on and sometimes it's asimple you're, you're doing
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things that the books tell youto do, based on the situation
that you think that you're in,only to find out that maybe
there's a whole lot more goingon that you don't know about and
so you're not doing things basedon the situation that you're
actually in, you're doing thingsbased on the situation you think
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that you're in.
Absolutely. And you know, I thiswas all a learning process for
me and my husband and you know,I have to say I know as lonely
as the journey was and continuesto be. I know I am Very blessed
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and very lucky. Because I havean amazingly supportive family.
I have an incredible husband,who has, he loved my son through
it. He's loved me through it.
But it's still very lonely,right. And I didn't really
understand addiction. And I, myonly experience was, I have had
family members. In my past thatstruggle with alcoholism, I
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didn't really understandalcoholism that much because I
was a child and reallyunderstand drug addiction. And
honestly, I'm ashamed to saythis, but it's important for me
to say, there was a time morethan once, especially like, in
the second or third year, that Isaid to my son, for God's sake,
just stop. Like, how hard isn't?
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It's destroying your life,you're gonna lose your house,
you're gonna lose, like, Stop, Ididn't under stand, that this
drug literally hijacked my son'sbrain. Now a force I thoroughly
understand addiction as adisease and needs to be treated
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just as if it were Ms. Like myhusband, as my husband has MS.
So we treat it right, right. Ihave a sister of us cancer,
she's getting treatment. Right?
We, but we don't always look ataddiction that way. And we tend
to roll our eyes or turn ourhead and always think that
somebody else's problem. Yeah.
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And it's, it is a communityproblem. It's a society problem.
It's a city problem, county,state, national, and the
epidemic is only getting worse.
Oh,absolutely. And I don't know if
this makes you feel any better.
But I am in recovery myself. Andso that means that I have a
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whole lot of friends that arealso in recovery. And there are
times where they don't do what Iwant them to do. They may go out
and they some of them or theyhave a really difficult time
staying clean for whateverreason. And there are moments
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where even I get frustrated, Iget angry, I don't understand
why do they keep doing this tothemselves? Recovery in this
world understanding firsthandwhat it's like to have your
brain hijacked. And yet I stillwill go into that place of of
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what are you doing?
Why are absolutely it's an easyplace to go to. And first, let
me say congratulations to you,and keep it up and how important
it is for not just for yourself,but for other people struggling
that you are so passionatelyputting this message out there.
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And I will just say as in lovingmother family member, it's so
easy, especially because I wouldlook at my son and I'm like,
You're so smart. Like you didyou've succeeded already. Like
you've got all these successesin life. Why are you screwing it
up? And it's easy, because I'm afixer. And I thought I could fix
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it for him. And I thought hecould fix it for himself. And it
just was devastating. Every timehe relapsed, was it literally
was a kick in the gut. And Ididn't understand and I am sure
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there are, you know, things thatI wish I hadn't said through our
struggles. But you know what,that's part of parenting. And
what I do know is that I love myson through it, and we did
everything we put him in everyprogram that he ever wanted to
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be in. And even though my son inthe end lost his battle, as you
know, four years ago. I knowthis is gonna surprise a lot of
people, but I've never beenangry at my son. I've never been
I feel like he did the best hecould.
(24:43):
Yeah. And he did. And it's it'ssad. And it's one of those
things where it's like, look,we're going to we're going to do
whatever we can at the end ofthe day. You know, sometimes
it's not about the actions thatyou take ache, although it's
great to have that support, it'sabout the action sometimes on
(25:06):
the other person. And sometimeswe'll just don't ever get there.
And that is a really hardconversation. But it's one that
I'm like, we have to talk aboutthat piece of things. And we all
have to acknowledge that you dideverything that you could. And
there's going to be places wheremaybe you feel oh, I could have
(25:28):
done this, or I should have donethat. And then yet, it has
nothing to do with anything thatyou did.
Well, and I no, ever feel like Icould have done something
different to change the factthat my son ended up having
substance use disorder. I dosometimes think about those
(25:52):
early conversations when it wasso new to me. And I was like,
okay, so you know, you, this iscausing you to miss work, and
pawn your stuff. So just so, sojust stop and move on. And I
didn't understand the power ofthe addiction. when I really
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started understanding it was acouple of years before we lost
my son. When I as thatoverbearing mother had a key to
his house. We had suspected hehad had a setback. And I went
into his house, because Ithought I'm gonna go see if his
(26:38):
TVs there, right, because thatwas always the telltale sign
right when he started pointingstuff. And I found syringes.
Now, Dan, let me tell you, myson was terrified of needles,
(27:00):
terrified as a grown man wasterrified. I had to go with him
when he was 22 years old. He hadto get stitches in his hand. And
he called me at work and said,Mom, please go with me. Because
he was terrified. He knew theywere going to give him a shot in
his hand. And I left his house,I couldn't even breathe. And I
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called my husband, I was havingalmost like a panic attack. And
I said, This is bad. Whensomebody who's terrified of
syringes, is intravenously nowtaking drugs. We I knew this is
beyond any control. Right? Thishas taken over his wife. And we,
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we, you know, of course, senthim to treatment again, that
time,right? Of course you did. You
know, here's, here's theinteresting, this is one of my,
I don't, I won't say favoritestories. It's a sad story. But
it's an interesting story. Iremember the first time I
checked into rehab, and as Isaid, the first time I checked
into rehab, they, you know, theygo through all your stuff. And,
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of course, the girl was goingthrough all my stuff she asked
me, she said, Do you have anyneedles and that was mostly for
her protection. She goes, I justneed to know because I don't
want to like stick myself oranything like that. And I just
looked at her like she had 10heads. I was like, oh, no, I
don't like needles. Like I wasso I think in that moment, both
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I was like, I'm scared ofneedles. I sounded probably
maybe a little pretentious.
Because I was Yeah, haha. No,that is not me at all. That's
not me. Right. Yeah. And shekind of scoffed at me when I
when I said whatever I said inthe way that I said it. She goes
home that's never stopped usbefore. And what was probably
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the sad thing was a couple ofyears later when I relapsed I
ended up not only using needles,but I also ended up getting high
with her as well.
Wow, yeah. Oh, that gave mechills. Yeah. That's Wow,
it was a very interesting Iguess kind of not a
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really very bizarre twist ofiron is
very bizarre twist of of irony.
And I remember that story, andthat that particular story for
me was going gin. You areabsolutely capable of anything
and everything that is outthere. There is absolutely
nothing that you won't bewilling to do. When it comes
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down to it. Never saynever. And you know, that
reminds me of something that Ican share about my son I think
because my Son, number one,ironically never had a criminal
record. He never spent a nightin jail. He I don't know why,
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but he would. I actually thinkthis led to his own demise in a
way, but many more than once.
Clay called me from treatment.
And he'd say, Mom, you gotta getme out of here. I'm not like
(30:29):
these people. I'm different mom.
I'm different. I got this. Thatwas his favorite things.
Enemies. Mom, I got this. I'mgood. And he, I think that my
son, because he was so smart.
Right. And my son was alsoreally deep in his face. I think
he thought he could outsmartthis disease.
(30:54):
I am I'm they're sad. Yeah, justyou feel it? Because, you know,
so I grew up, you know, in avery similar way of, I didn't. I
grew up in a very good home. Iwas not around drugs. I was I've
never seen my mom drunk. Notonce in my entire life. Well, I
(31:19):
had a very wonderful I grew upin I went to private school in
high school, like it was thatkind of life. College, just a
really good family. We were atchurch going good family and
ninth grade. I'm sitting herelistening to DC talk. And like
Michael English, you know, ifyou don't know that those are
(31:39):
all elected Christian Rap bandsand rock bands, right. And so
it's like back in the 90s. And Iwas really into that. And so
when it came time for me toenter in, and I do feel like,
I'm not the smartest person inthe world, but I can hold my own
in a conversation and smartenough to feel like I should be
(32:03):
able to be smarter than this,especially because when I hear
the comparison is the mother ofall evils. Right? And
absolutely, I would comparemyself to other people's stories
where they were like, oh, yeah,me and my dad, or my mom or
whatever. We're all sittingaround smoking crack and getting
high together. And like, Yes,and I grew up with and I don't
(32:24):
know, any different. And all ofthe stuff that I'm sitting here
like, well, that's not my story.
That's exactly what my sonexperienced. Exactly. And he
would tell me that he's like,Mom, do you know this, that I
come from a different life and,and I've never been to jail and
all I hear stories about peoplein jail, and I've never robbed
(32:47):
anybody. And I've never donethese things. And I would say,
but clay strip all that away,you have the same problem that
theyhave. Yeah. And that and that,
to me is like, I still have tobe really mindful to not compare
myself out. Because this is theone. This is the one place where
it does not matter what yourupbringing is, it is it doesn't
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matter what kind of home youhad, absolutely not who your
parents were, it doesn't matterif you smoked crack at the age
of six, or yet you didn't getinto it until you were 22 years
old. And it just100% addiction does not
discriminate. Addiction, doesn'tcare who you are no
(33:31):
discrimination, it can happen toanyone and I have heard so many
stories, what really also helpedme understand addiction as a
disease is I've heard so manystories of people who
experimented, I mean heavilyexperimented at a young age with
(33:56):
drugs, whether it's crack, oreven meth, or cocaine, whatever.
And then, you know, they hit acertain age and they're like,
moving on with my life. They putit behind them and they move on,
and it never affected themagain.
(34:18):
I have no idea these people howthey do it, I will do it.
Right, right. And then there'speople like my son, people like
you who have this zero toleranceto substance that the moment you
take this mind alteringsubstance, it hijacks your
(34:41):
brain, literally. And that'swhen I realized it's and you
know, my son actually said to meonce Mom, this is not a fun
life. Like he said, it's notlike, I think that's important
to say because I think some ofthe the public who casts so much
(35:03):
stigma and shame on addiction, Ithink what they say what they're
picturing are a group of peoplesitting around getting high and
laughing and joking, and livingthe life of Riley, when in fact,
it is a physically difficult itis my son would get physically
(35:24):
sick every time he would try toget off the drugs. It it is
emotionally impairing, it iscrushing. It's demoralizing.
It's horrible. Nobody, nobodyever wakes up and says, gee, I
think I'll be a drug addict.
That sounds like a fun life.
Yeah, this, this, and I can tellyou that when I was in the
(35:47):
deepest parts, there was no funbeing had, there was nothing I
mean, like I there would benights. And this is these are
like the scary stories whereit's like we would be so off our
rocker that we, you know, wewould be running through the
parking lot of our apartmentbuilding, swearing up and down
(36:08):
that there was people watchingus, and we would check every car
in the parking lot. For cameras,for all, this is not a fun thing
to do. We did not do laundry formonths, and at least stuff. I
mean, I gotta tell you, youknow, there's no way we didn't
sink. I couldn't smell myselfanymore. But I was losing weight
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leftand right. So demoralizing way
to have to go through your day.
And some for some reason. It'slike, you know, I still, I'm
like, Man, I really wish that Icould smoke crack, like
socially, right? Like, like, whywould I ever want to think about
that? Why would I want to dothat? It's just the where it
takes us. It'snice, where your mind goes. And,
(36:49):
um, you know, I, I can remembermy son had moved to Wilmington
at one time, so we ran in hishouse out, we put a renter in
his house. But that was the onlything my son ended up not losing
(37:09):
was his house. We, we were ableto save his house by renting it
out. But at one time, my son wasliving in Wilmington. He had
gone to treatment there andactually his father live not far
from there. So he was going tostart a new life. I think my my
son would move from town totown. And I think he always
(37:30):
thought he could escape hisaddiction. Right. I'll move to
Greenville. I'll move toGreensboro. I'll move to
Wilmington. And he always movedthinking he could start a fresh
life. But I found out that hewas donating I had not even
heard like didn't even know youcould do this. He was donating.
(37:53):
Not what but flightless. Formoney. Yeah. To get high. Yeah.
Which I guess is better thanstealing to get high. But it
devastated me. And now, when Istick my son never stole from
(38:14):
me. That doesn't mean he didn'tmanipulate the heck out of me to
get money from me. It was alwaysMom, I need food. Mom, I need,
you know, something at thestore? And I would it wasn't
Venmo at the time. There was away you could it wasn't Western
Union. It was through whatWalmart? You could send money.
Yeah, it was kind of likeWestern Union. And I would send
(38:37):
him money. And that was alwaysdevastating for me. Because the
difficult thing when you're amom, is you never want your
child to be hungry or cold. orscared. Or, and but at the same
time, where do you draw thatline? Right? of enabling, right?
(38:57):
Or just mothering? And did Ienable Sure. I can't say I
didn't. Because there were timesI gave my son money. Deep down
in my soul. I knew he was lyingto me. Yeah, about what he
needed that money for. But Ialso didn't want to lay my head
(39:21):
on my pillow at night and thinkabout my son being hungry.
Yeah. And that's, that's one ofthe hardest one I don't. For me.
I'm like, I hate the term andenabling, right. I hate I hate
that because I think it's so oneI think it's really vague. And
(39:42):
and two, it's like, why don't weinstead like let's look at this
practically speaking, where it'slike, Alright, so you've done
this thing. Now let's look atoutcomes. Right let's look at
see what has actually happenedin the past. So If they have
ended up using the money, rightfor other things other than what
(40:06):
they tell you, or maybe theyreally did use it for food, but
it was because they use alltheir money for the drugs. And
so the food, like, yes, theymay, you know, they may go
hungry, but it's like, let'slook at the actual outcomes of
what you have been doing and seewhat's working and see what's
not working, and how can we lookat, like, what maybe could we do
(40:28):
something differently to createa different outcome, instead of
just going into the same, like,I'm going to give you money, and
you're going to, you know, useit for this or that and, and
like, also balance that I don'twant to lay my head down on my
pillow. And think about my kidbeing hungry, because that's
just the biggest heart tug thereis. I can't have them laying out
(40:52):
on the street. Hungry. And I'mlike, that's why. And sometimes
I have to remind people, butthey've kind of said that that's
what they want their life tolook like, right over and over
and over again. They've beensetting themselves hopes and
making decisions that says thatthis is what I want my life to
look at. And what if we honorthat instead of going? Yeah,
(41:14):
what if we honor their choices?
Not the tough love? But what ifwe actually honor them? Sure,
you know, and that's a can be areally difficult place to be.
But you know, I hear peoplethey'll say, I don't know if I
like was it enabling? I justcouldn't figure out like, I
wouldn't want to do it any otherway. I just don't like, yeah,
for me, I'm like, oh, let's canwe throw enabling out of the
(41:37):
dictionary? Well, there'sso many words we need to throw
out. And I've used many of themjust in this podcast, but just
for the sake of conversation.
But we try not to say like drugaddict, or like we try to use
substance use disorder. Like we,you know, one of the messages
(41:59):
that Lisa and I are trying toget out, is we have to break the
stigma. And a lot of these wordsthat we use, only inflate
stigma, and only add to thestigma. And honestly, it's I get
very easily, maybe not easily Ican be triggered by certain
(42:24):
words. And I absolutely willcorrect a complete stranger. In
our grocery line. If there's aconversation behind me talking
about junkies on the streetcorner, I will turn around and I
will correct them. And I willsay, you know that person is
somebody's son or daughter,brother, sister, mother
(42:46):
grandchild, and that person hasa disease. And, you know, if you
can't have a little bit ofcompassion, then just don't even
acknowledge it. Yeah, right.
Yeah. Like I will call somebodyelse. And and those words
literally make my stomachflitter, because they're
devastating.
One it just for I can onlyimagine. But it would probably,
(43:10):
if I were you bring me back tothat moment of that deep mother
instinct to say, you are notgoing to judge my son,
you are not going to judge myson, and you're not going to
judge somebody else's son.
Right. And that's where it takesme. And obviously, you know, me,
and you know, I'm not shy. And Iwill speak. And I do it very
(43:33):
respectfully, I do it in a in amotherly way. But honestly, a
lot of a lot of thoseconversations are because people
aren't educated enough. Andthat's why podcasts like yours
are so important. And that's whythese workshops that Lisa and I
(43:56):
do, and these events that theshare project, because that's
what we're trying to do. We'retrying to get that message out
there that guess what, thisisn't somebody else's problem.
This isn't just kids as as anold expression kids from the
(44:17):
wrong side of the tracks. Right?
This is everybody's problem.
These are addiction doesn'tdiscriminate. I tell a story in
some of the I wrote a story andI've read it at some of our
events, but it's called not mychild. And the way the story
starts, I say, I have aconfession to make. There was a
(44:42):
time in my life that I thoughtdrug addiction only happened to
other people. And I don't meanother race, religion, socio
economics, none of that. I justmean not my child. Not much
right? I'm not my child. Andthat is the best way that I can
(45:03):
describe it, I tell this storyof this journey with my son. And
the whole time thinking, this isnot my child, this is not my
clay, my slave would not havesold his iPhone, to buy drugs,
right? And all the way to thevery end, where I'm standing
(45:24):
over his casket, and I'm sayingthat's not my trial.
But it was.
But the more we can get thatmessage out, that listen, it can
happen. And it's it happened tomy family, and it happened to
Lisa's family, and all theseother people that come to our
(45:47):
grass, meaning it can happen toyou. And ironically, I've met
like you, it's almost like, onceyou start telling your story,
then it will my grandson, or mynephew, or my brother or my
sister, and it's people youwould never fathom, like,
(46:09):
professional people withmultiple degrees. It could be
anybody. But it does seem likethe more we open that door,
sharing our story, people aresaying, now I have somebody that
I can tell.
Yes. And I think exactly whatyou were just saying when we
(46:33):
start sharing our stories out.
And it doesn't matter at whatpoint you may have just heard,
just kind of like how you did inthe beginning, that your son or
daughter is having a little bitof a challenge. And a lot of
times, parents families, theywant to keep that very close
chested. They don't want to talkabout it with other people. They
(46:55):
don't want to tell other peopleYeah, I had to go put my kid
into into rehab because of allof that stuff. And yet, there's
so much going on in thosedynamics that it's like, you
feel lonely, you feel isolated.
And it's not until we canactually start removing the
(47:16):
shame, and absolutely about itthat all of a sudden, we realize
there's nothing to be ashamedof. There's so many people, I
cannot tell you, I cannot gointo the grocery store. And
literally today I was talkingwith someone, and he saw my
shirt, you can't see my shirtbecause we're on a podcast. But
(47:38):
he saw my shirt said MC saidwhat's that? I said that's my
consulting business stands forwhen he goes your consultant.
And I have talked to this manseveral times. I was like, Yeah,
and I told him what I do islike, yeah, work with families
that have always wanted tosubstance abuse. He goes, Oh, he
goes, Well, how long do youhave? You know, I don't know how
I knew. But how long do youhave? And I said, you know, 15
(48:00):
years? And he goes, Oh, I have22? And, oh, wow, we cannot go
anywhere without finding someonethat knows someone? Or you know,
or is that person, a familymember, a brother, a sister, a
cousin? A whatever? Absolutely.
When we keep it close chested,we do feel like we're doing all
(48:25):
of this alone, because we are.
And I feel why organizationslike the share project podcast
like yours, like we are, that'swhat we're doing. In fact, share
stands for spreading hope andawareness and removing the
epidemic stigma. And, and a lotof it also is just where we're
(48:49):
at in our day and time. And Ilook back on middle aged, and I
look back to when I was a kidand when when I was growing up.
Family problems stayingin the family. Culturally,
that's what we're used to.
That's what we're used to. Theystay within the boundaries of
our home and not outside thehome. Right. And it's it's a big
(49:14):
adjustment to say publicly, Iexperienced this and it takes
time. And honestly, the veryfirst time I shared my story
publicly, was in the SmokyMountain News. There's a
journalist there named Coreyvallencourt. He knows me really
(49:35):
well. He knew my story. He askedif I was comfortable sharing my
story. And this was only about ayear after I lost my son. And I
said absolutely. He came to myoffice. We talked. He wrote this
wonderful article where hegently handled my son's story
(50:00):
was such dignity. And it gave,he really opened that door for
me and gave me the courage thatthere there are kinds of people.
Right. And listen, Jen, I knowthere's people who judge me. I
know there are. I've had it sentto me. I actually had somebody
(50:20):
asked me in a public forum, do Iever look back and wonder if I
could have parented differently?
Of course I do. There willalways be the naysayers, there
will always be those who shamethose who spread stigma. But I
think I have hope. And I aminspired by the community
support, we have received thesupport from our local
(50:43):
politicians from our policedepartment, all these
organizations that come out andsupport every event that their
share project puts on, it islike each time I can exhale a
little bit more, that I'm notbeing judged my foot, most
importantly, my son's not beingjudged correct. And it's a it's
(51:04):
a fine line, because I said,when my son passed away, I said,
when when I had to write myson's obituary, which is the
hardest thing any parent can do.
And my sister, of course, wereso incredibly close, she
(51:26):
immediately came in town, shestayed with me through it all,
she helped me with it all. And Iremember having this
conversation with her. And, andthis is ironic, I said, clay
will not I don't want my son tobe remembered for how he died. I
want him to be remembered forhow he live. So I made it
(51:49):
important that everything in hiscelebration of life, the people
that spoke was all about howplay inspired them and all the
wonderful because my son trulywas a wonderful man. But yet,
ironically, I am publiclysharing almost every day how my
son passed away, but it'simportant. And I feel like if my
(52:15):
story and Lisa story, and ourlittle organization can help
just one person, then that'swhat we're here for. And if
there's just one mom that saysI'm going to call them because I
need somebody to talk to you.
That's what it's all about.
And I think, you know, becauseyou've talked about the share
(52:38):
project. Now you guys do actual,like, group stuff and event. Oh,
so tell me a little bit aboutyour groups that you do? Yeah,
sure.
So we actually have two monthlysupport groups. The second
Tuesday of the month, we have agroup called grasp, and that
stands for Grief Recovery Aftersubstance passing. And that's
(53:02):
the second Tuesday of the month,the Haywood Regional Hospital
was generous enough to donate usclassroom space in the fitness
center. So that's it's a verysafe place to me, and it's quiet
and private. And then the thirdTuesday of the month, we have
smart recovery friends andfamily and that group is for
(53:25):
anyone that currently hassomebody struggling with
substance use disorder. Andthat's um, yeah. Yeah, also do
events. So what kind of eventsdo you do? I see, there was an
international overdose awarenessevent.
Yes. And I will tell you a sadthing about internet
(53:46):
international overdoseawareness. We have these posts
are these vital poster boardsthat say the number of lives a
day that have been lost tooverdose and we put these
banners throughout ourcommunity. We have these banners
of 150 faces of young peoplefrom across the United States.
(54:11):
Of course, my son is on theirlatest on other people from
Buncombe County, Jackson County,Haywood County, but also all
over United States and the signsay X number of lives are lost a
day to overdose. These are a fewof them spaces. We started
(54:31):
putting those banners and thosesigns out two years ago. And it
was at that time the nationalstatistic was 200 lives a day.
Then we had to get the postersupdated to 222 and then 285 and
now it's 295. And last year, wedid 222 glass jars with purple
(54:57):
lights, because purple is theocean knows power on the
courthouse steps, and we'll dothat. Again. We weren't able to
get it coordinated this year. Sowe only did the banners this
year. But people were able tosubmit their loved ones name.
And we actually did likehandwritten tags on the glass
(55:21):
jars with purple ribbons. Andthat was a very powerful
tribute. We also do an annualWalk in May. And we had around
300 people this year at ourwalk. And we get different
speakers this year, we had theKenton mayors and Smathers. And
we had some people who work intreatment, who spoke and then of
(55:44):
course, they said I always beand people in recovery as well.
And we try to change it up eachyear to get different speakers,
different different points ofview. But the important thing of
our walk or walk is my favoriteevent, because we also invite
(56:04):
all these organizations fromwestern North Carolina. And we
had, I want to say 32 or 33organizations are represented at
our walk with tables, flyers,pamphlets. Because one of the
things is I go back to where westarted, when my son said, Mom,
(56:25):
I need help. I had no idea. Andour walks of course, are open to
the public. So maybe there'sanother mom who's going to have
that conversation. And they'regoing to say, hey, wait a
minute, I just saw at that walka flyer from via health or
sunrise, or meridian. And thatmight get them one step closer
(56:48):
to finding help for their lovedone.
Yeah. Because this is, and thisis what's really important
because man, let me tell youwhat you find out kind of like
how you did, all of a sudden,your kid comes to yours like I
need help. You don't knowanything, the only thing you
kind of really know to do is sitdown and Google what to do. And
(57:09):
let me tell you, the world ofconfusion is a world of
confusion that you will diveinto if you ever sit down and
start asking these questionsinto Google, into Facebook into
social media. It's so hard tofind a very clear and like
trusting answer or someone thatyou know has your best interests
(57:32):
as well as your loved ones bestinterests at heart. So it's
not our way that Jen then hasthe added obstacle. Do you have
insurance? Who takes yourinsurance? Most likely you do
not have insurance? And guesswhat? Who can pay for that posh
Treatment Center in Florida?
That's, you know, $60,000 for 30days? Yeah, right. So then
(57:55):
you've got to find somethingthat your family is in your
family's budget, or your lovedones insurance. It is such a
difficult water to navigate. Andnow we've got the added
difficulty right now of staffingshortages. And the thing that
(58:19):
you and I both know is when aperson makes the decision. I'm
ready. I'm ready for treatment.
Take me right now. And thenyou're told there's a one week
wait to even get him in? Yeah.
You overwhelmingI tell people when I work with
families. Now normally they'veeither gone through this at
(58:42):
least once, right? By the timethey find me. And but I'll say
we need to come up with a veryproactive plan. Because you have
about 24 hours when they come toyou to get them somewhere or
they're not goingthey're not knowing they get
scared. They get sick. Becausethey start detoxing. Yeah. And
(59:04):
it's traumatic. It happened withwith us and my son more than
once were like, basically, wehad to trap him in the house
until a bed came open. You'renot leaving this house.
Yeah. And it's it's, you know, Iit's one of those like we
(59:24):
really, the time to figure itout is not the time when they
say I need help. I'm desperate.
That is the time that says okay,this is what we're doing right
now. And this is where we'regoing we're getting into the car
and we're we're going and that'snot easy to find. And that's why
it's like it's really importantthough, to have that like one
(59:46):
phone call that you need to makethat says we are on our way and
that's all you have for you'realready set up with everything
else and I think that's a reallyimportant piece of the puzzle of
like, look, when they say theyneed help. It's not in five days
from now, it's not in, oh, it's30 days until I can get in
(01:00:11):
there.
And I think it's even a littlemore difficult for communities
like ours, because we're suchrural communities. And our
resources are a lot more limitedthan in like Charlotte, or
(01:00:31):
Fayetteville or some of thebigger cities. And I am hopeful
that Mamie with some of theopioid settlement funds. Yeah,
as limited as they are. Itsounds like a lot of money when
you hear reports, but it'sbroken down over snippets of
(01:00:55):
money. But I am, I am hopefulthat maybe some of our
communities can Co Op some ofthat money, and maybe we can get
more treatment in western NorthCarolina,
and treatment that to be clear,we have a lot of treatment
facilities. I know because I go,you know, sure all of them more
(01:01:21):
affordable, accessible,accessible, that's the key,
you know, and it's like, Look,I'll go in, and they'll be like,
Oh, well, we either take thisinsurance, or you can pay us 20
grand.
That's what I'm saying. And ifthat's not in your budget, then
what are you gonna do?
We don't take insurance pay is20 grand?
(01:01:42):
Hey, it's 20 grand. Yeah, let mewrite your check.
Okay, I'll get right on. Let mego mortgage my house for someone
that I have no idea. This istheir third treatment, I don't
even know. Like, it's like,okay, and I get it. Listen, I
treatment centers. You have tobe sustainable. There's a
sustainable business model. Inorder for them to keep the doors
(01:02:04):
open. They have things that theyhave to pay for. They have
clinicians they have to pay forthey have there's a lot I
totally understand that. Andyet, it's still not accessible
for families that aren't havebeen through the wringer and
can't afford it.
It's just like your ruin. Whatare we doing? It's like a
hamster on a wheel. We're justspinning.
(01:02:26):
We're just spinning. It's likethe I want to pull my hair out
sometimes. But there are placesif you know, where to go and
what to look that, you know,there's, I won't I won't name
all the names because I'm, youknow, they
know. But I how do I go ahead?
Yeah. And I've learned moresince Lisa. And I started the
(01:02:49):
share project. Yeah, I learnedmore about what treatment is out
there than I did. When my sonwas going through this, we knew
of certain ones. I feel like myson, like made his rounds at the
same ones sometimes, because hewas comfortable there. Yeah.
(01:03:09):
But, um, there's treatment inwestern North Carolina, I didn't
even know existed.
Right? Well, and you see, andhere's here's part of the
problem with sitting down toGoogle, right is the first page,
(01:03:30):
anywhere you go to do anythingis going to be paid ads, paid
ads, all the paid ads, all thebigger treatment, and they're
not even treatment centers,they're like networks, that will
go send you over to the it'svery confusing, right? The whole
(01:03:50):
thing is confusing. So it'snever going to be the nonprofit
that is, you know, they that youdon't have to pay, it's never
going to be that on the firstpage. You're going to find those
on like the fourth page, thispage, and then you're going to
be like, This doesn't make anysense. And I don't know if I can
trust it or whatever. And it'slike, no, but I'm gonna go spend
(01:04:10):
money, I'm gonna go spend 1000sof dollars because at least then
I know that they're real. Andit's like, but but then they're
not. It's so confused. And Idon't have any very clear
answers. I'm at leastacknowledging the level of
confusion and how nice it is tohave people like you to have
people like me, where it's like,Listen, you have these
questions, and we kind of havethese, these answers. And we can
(01:04:34):
help you streamline this becausewe are in the community that can
go and send you in one directionversus 10. Right, like, start
here. If that doesn't work, letme know. We'll go send you
somewhere else. And I think yes,that's one of the things that's
really valuable for what youguys are doing with both your
(01:04:55):
smart recovery and your grasp.
Meetings. is is you have peoplethat are knowledgeable about
this stuff. And so it's I knowthat a lot of family members
who've been close club keepingtheir lives close to their
chest, they have a really hardtime walking into that group for
the first time and a group ofpeople that they don't know, one
(01:05:17):
recommendation is, and I don'twant to just be like, oh, you
should get over that. Because Ithink that is just too much.
It's very overwhelming. And I'veheard you say this, and I don't
want to offer this. But it'ssometimes it's nice to talk to
someone first, to say, yes,there are so and so's going to
be there and they're going tomeet you or whatever, please
(01:05:40):
come like we would love to haveyou and what what I offer, I, if
people generally the way peoplefirst find us is on the
internet, and they'll send ageneral email, the first thing I
do is, of course, respond. And Igive my phone number. And I say
(01:06:03):
please call me or if they'vegiven their phone number in
their initial email, I and Ifirst invite them to coffee, or
I'll say, if you're comfortable,I'll come to your house. I've
been to people's houses, I'vetaken people to lunch, and I
make that initial contact inperson. And it's usually a
(01:06:24):
grieving mom or a grieving dad.
And but I do want to clarify, weare not parents only we've got
spouses, we've got grandparentsin our group, but I will offer I
have no problem with drive intoBuncombe County, or even
(01:06:45):
Hendersonville, whatever. So Ioffer to make that initial
contact in person, because Ifeel like then once they meet
me, and I can make them feelcomfortable, then when they come
to grass for the first time, andI'm standing in the doorway to
welcome them. They don't feellike a stranger in a strange
(01:07:07):
land.
Absolutely. How valuable isthat? It's almost like I, I
think about it as like the firstresponders kind of club that
that initial contact, that thatbridge that helps make that
first step, a little bit lessskill. And the other side of
that. The other side issometimes they're not ready to
(01:07:29):
come to a meeting, but they needsomeone to talk to. And I always
make sure I clarify that I amnot a therapist, I am not
educated in therapy. I am justcoming as a friend. I'm coming
as someone that has walked inyour shoes, and I will hold your
hand and let you cry. Andwhatever you need me to do, I'll
(01:07:54):
bring you lunch, I'll dowhatever. I have one lady in
Buncombe County, whose houseI've been to we text, we talk,
she's not ready to come to ameeting and I'm okay with that.
I'm not going to pressureanybody to come to a meeting
until they're ready. Sometimesthey just need an
(01:08:20):
Yeah, and you know that my wholebusiness was based out of the
understanding that not everyoneis going to go to a meeting, not
everyone, maybe they can getthere, maybe they can't is
irrelevant to me. All I know issometimes people just need to
(01:08:41):
talk about their stuff, theyjust need to have someone they
can connect to that's maybe notin like a group setting. And it
was like, Okay, well, if you'renot going to do the group, cool.
Something's got a, something'sgot to be out there. And so like
that, for me, it was like, Okay,I'm just gonna create it. But
you've, you know, you wantyou've created that group place
(01:09:02):
for people that are ready forthe groups. And I think it's
amazing and so generous ingiving, that you also are
willing to just be that personthat they can talk to you
because that's sometimes allpeople can handle in the
beginningof it. Everybody has their own
journey, and everybody has theirown means and their own way of
handling it. And it's the samething for the friends and
(01:09:25):
family, the smart recovery,friends and family. The reason
that was so important, and Idon't leave that one, because
quite frankly, I don't havesomebody currently struggling.
But so I leave the grass andLisa leaves the Smart Recovery
even though she's experiencedboth how but one of the things
(01:09:47):
that Lisa and I, the reason wewere so adamant about the
group's is because the recurringSee when she and I met, and we
would talk about our ownstruggles, because she was
really the first other person Imet, who walked in my shoes,
(01:10:10):
right. She, and we talked aboutthere not being a family
resource, a family supportgroup. And like I said, early in
the podcast, you know, myfriends are planning weddings
and births of children. And, youknow, how am I going to damper
(01:10:32):
that by saying, well, I need totalk to you, my son is addicted
to heroin, right? So I had tokeep it all buried inside and
within my, the confines of myown little family. And we wanted
to build a safe space, thatloved ones could reach out and
say, I have somebody strugglingand I need somebody to talk to.
(01:10:56):
Yeah,absolutely. Wow. That's such a
good. So if I have anybody who'slistening to this that wants to
find you, how are they going tobe able to find you?
So of course, we have a website,and it's theshareproject.org o-
R-G.
And this will be in this will bea link in the show notes, by the
(01:11:17):
way. So yes.
So they can go to our website,there's a link that they can
email us directly. And all ofour contact information is on
there. We have a 24 hour phonenumber. And we are available
(01:11:37):
when most people reach out to usinitially by email, and I think
that's just comfortable.
Absolutely. Well, you know what,when I'm trying to connect with
someone, honestly, I feel likeeven if they give me their phone
number, if they give me theirphone number, and they give me
their email, the truth is, isI'm probably going to email
them.
Absolutely. Absolutely. And alsoon our website, we always list
(01:12:02):
what workshops we're working on,we've done the workshops is new
this year. So we've only donethree of them. So far, we try to
do one a quarter, we did onethat was just basic, called
addiction one on one. And webrought a specialist in who just
talked about the basics ofaddiction, it was wonderful. We
(01:12:25):
have people that work intreatment that come to our
workshops, we have loved ones,and sometimes just interested
people in the community. Butthen we did one on MIT. And like
I said before, like we don'tadvocate for any one treatment
over another way, this felt theimportance of educating people
(01:12:45):
on MHD. Because it was somethingthat was pretty new back when I
was going through this with myson, I didn't really know much
about it. Then we did one onjust language and stigma, how
words like junkie, we talkedabout this, right? So how words
(01:13:06):
can build stigma. So we'realways looking for ways that we
can continue to not just supportour community, but also educate
our community.
That's it. That is so amazing. Ithink that what you guys are
doing and putting into thisworld is yellow, just a gifts
(01:13:27):
seriously. So I just really wantto thank you, sincerely for this
time for you being willing toshare. This was when I started
this. People like you and Lisaor my vision of what I wanted
for this podcast. And so I justwant to want to thank you so
(01:13:49):
much for the willingness to beopen,
of course. And I thank you forgiving us the opportunity, and
for inviting us. Thank you. Welove what you're doing. Your
podcast is wonderful.
Thank you. And you know what,guys next time that you hear
this as at some point, it'sgoing to be Lisa and Michelle
(01:14:13):
together. And that I think isgoing to be such a powerful
little panel of just a what Iknow will be a wonderful
conversation. If you do have,you know someone with substance
abuse, it doesn't have to youdon't have to be a parent, you
may be a brother, you may be asister, you may be a cousin, a
grandparent, it does a spouseespecially. It doesn't matter. I
(01:14:37):
think what we're saying is, youare not alone. And there are
people out there there areresources out there to support
and help and you don't have tofeel like you have to navigate
the Google world, the socialmedia world, all of that there
are people you can actuallyreach out and talk to so please
do that. And sorry, I almostcalled you Lisa. Shel, thank you
(01:15:00):
again.
So yes, thank you so much. Yeah.
And thank you for listening tothis podcast. If you want to
listen to more or find moreinformation out about this
podcast, and more of what I doto help families, you can go
check out my page at unbreakableboundaries podcast.com. It's
full of other great podcasts,just like this one and other
great resources to look through.
And please remember to sharethis podcast with others because
(01:15:23):
you never know who may need tohear this people are often
hiding their battles in thisarena and sharing is a great way
to provide this valuableresource to a person you may not
even know who needs it. Anddon't forget, there is always
hope, even when things seem themost hopeless.