October 19, 2022 • 66 mins
In this episode, Tracy and I get into a great conversation about what do kids need and how that translates later in life. Safety, Security, and Love are three important things and in that, creating a safe place to be heard and how important connection is.
Tracy Redfearn is a Licensed Psychoeducational Specialist who is certified by the SC Board of Education as a School Psychologist II, the National Association of School Psychologists as a Nationally Certified School Psychologist, and the International Association of Trauma Professionals as a Child and Adolescent Trauma Professional. Tracy founded Child and Family Resource Center in 2012 because she was concerned with the need in Hartsville for effective intervention services to help provide children and adolescents with successful educational experiences. Tracy has been instrumental in helping many children who struggle to meet their potential in the classroom through her expertise in assessments, learning differences, and knowledge of SC Special Education practices and procedures.
Her educational intervention recommendations focus on the unique social, emotional, behavioral and academic needs of each student she sees. For optimal results, she collaborates closely with parents, educators and other professionals to help create supportive learning environments while strengthening connections between home, school and the community. Tracy understands special education laws and is passionate about the rights of students with special needs. She educates parents on their rights and serves as an advocate at 504 and IEP meetings.
As a psychologist in the school system for over a decade, Tracy saw firsthand how grief, loss and trauma can interfere with learning. To help hurting families cope, she has been offering grief camps ( All Seasons Grief Camp ). Through therapeutic activities that include art, horseback riding, music, movement and breathing, and classes on grief and emotional support, families are able to push past their pain. Family members memorialize their loved ones in a ceremony at the conclusion.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jennifer Maneely (00:02):
Welcome back to the unbreakable boundaries
podcast with your host myself,Jennifer Maneely. I am really
excited for this upcoming guest.
Her name is Tracy Redfern. And Imet her at an interesting place
it was at my ski lake of allplaces, waterski like it all
places, and I had put up myartwork, some of you have heard
(00:24):
about my artwork, if you haveit, you can definitely go check
it out. It's a lot ofinspirational art with a lot of
really amazing quotes. And so Ithrew this thing up and was
like, I don't know what's gonnahappen, but we'll just see. And
this is how I met Tracy. So Iput it up, had no expectations,
(00:44):
I come down, I'm sitting and shesays, Oh, my gosh, I just love
this. And in that launched abeautiful conversation to where
we're here now. So Tracy, thankyou so much for coming on. I'm
so excited to have you. Thankyou for allowing me to be a part
of Jen. Yes. And so I think I'mreally what started sparking
(01:06):
this conversation was she wassaying how, you know, she works
with schools, as a traumaprofessional, correct, you can
always correct me if I'm notusing the right language. And
obviously, when she brings upsomething like trauma or grief
and kids, I'm like, let's, uh,we need to have this
(01:28):
conversation. So
Tracy (01:32):
he was on right,
Jennifer Maneely (01:34):
it was on from there. I was like, Well, let me
tell you, and, and, you know, Istarted telling her a little bit
about what I do, working withfamilies that have substance
abuse issues. And that's how wekind of got started on that
really big conversation, becausehow much does this the the
trauma and the adolescentexperience, kind of, a lot of
(01:58):
times, we'll go into what we seethat turns into like an
addiction, or people that havethe substance abuse issues, I'll
get so many calls on parentsthat really focus a lot on that.
Maybe that traumatic event orsomething that happened to
people when they were younger.
And now here we are, yearslater, as it continues to
(02:21):
present and in how it kind of,we're looking at some of those
developmental needs that gosometimes unmet, that aren't
even ours as parents or theschools that they're not
necessarily ours to meet. But itis good to know what those needs
(02:42):
are so that we can support thethe adolescents and the kids and
finding those needs is thatTracy, please feel free to chime
in.
Tracy (02:58):
And thank you, you're on it. I think that we're hitting
all those things that areimportant.
Jennifer Maneely (03:03):
Yes. And you know, we were talking about the
kind of that grief and the needsand the trauma. And across the
board, what would you say wouldbe the top three things that
you're looking for that youthink that these kids, I'm gonna
(03:26):
just refer to people as kids,that these kids kind of need to
support themselves through theirexperience that they're having
an adolescence,
Tracy (03:36):
I'd have to say the top three things. In terms of
trauma, grief and loss, Jenwould have to be a voice the
first thing was, it's my voicematters most, which is your
story. The child's story. I havea young girl right now that just
(03:58):
came from Mexico, horriblethings. Little little sister was
was murdered. And then she getsleft behind because dad comes
here to look for work in Americaand the grandma's boyfriend
molester. And then there's justsome and then her actual
biological mother die. So youtalk about trauma, trauma,
(04:21):
trauma. Being a sister or asibling die, in itself is a huge
trauma, right? But then when youget cultural things, she ends up
here. I've lost my identity as aHispanic young woman. And then
I've lost my mother to death.
All of those things a childbecause these were all happening
(04:45):
at different ages of herchildhood. And her now to being
a teenager who is still while 16is that little three year old
girl who saw her one year oldsister die by gunfire Wow. So
giving her a voice. And I askedher, I was like, so what is the
one thing that that little girlneeded? Yeah, said I just wanted
(05:09):
somebody to pick me up, buteverybody's going to. And so
through all these years, shesaid, I don't matter. And what
is she doing every day? She'ssmoking pot, she's having
promiscuous sex, all to feelwhat, which I feel is the second
thing that a child needs isconnection. Yeah, there's gotta
(05:31):
be connection. And I mean, Iwould say safety first. But they
don't get that they just want tofeel hurt. Oh, my God, you see
me? Yeah, my sister died. But Iwas the one that was here when
she died. I saw it.
Jennifer Maneely (05:50):
And so when you say, you know, it's, you say
safety first. And you're talkingabout really? Someone being
heard. But isn't someone beingheard? Really a part of safety?
Tracy (06:06):
Oh, come on. You're so?
Yeah,
Jennifer Maneely (06:09):
yeah. Because
Tracy (06:11):
you're ready, you can't tell that story. It's got to be
a safe place, it's got to have asafe space, a haven to really be
able to just unload all of that,you know, right.
Jennifer Maneely (06:23):
And because I am thinking about so many times
where it and this is just thisis I think this is almost just a
natural thing. When someone istalking about something that is
difficult to hear by someoneelse, whether it's, you know,
(06:43):
even if it's like my own mother,or just someone in general. So I
think about what happens to meif someone calls me up, and
they're telling me a storythat's difficult and painful.
What is my immediate response?
And maybe I will start, like,kind of being uncomfortable. Oh,
(07:03):
yeah. And I might play like, I'mlistening. But I have not,
because the only thing I reallywant to do is get a phone. It's
uncomfortable, right? It's it'suncomfortable.
Tracy (07:18):
Oh my gosh, I remember like, you know, one of the
things we trained for ingraduate school is, you know,
you want to have that I'm notmoved by this. Right. What when,
I mean, it's just the way I'mcreated. And I know I'm doing
what I'm destined to do. Is thatheart to help others to be
(07:40):
healing, to bring healing intosituations. But there are still
almost every time because everystory is unique. You go, Oh, all
right. There's that wash andnothing at that makes me feel
like that. What is that makethat person feel like? It's
their shame that I've gonethrough this? What was that?
(08:01):
Like, you know, this after, youknow, so many years, I'm just
learning what you just said. Andthat's just to be in it. And to
listen with unconditionalpositive regard. Right? person
saying so that they know, dang,she heard me and that might be
(08:22):
just reiterating those keypoints that they said. So I've
got to really tune in instead oflistening to my heart. Like, oh,
my God, that child went throughthat. But just listening to them
is when children feel heard,then they don't feel like
they've got to open up doors tobe validated in venues, whether
(08:46):
it's promiscuous sex, drugs,alcohol, you know, right. When I
think I think there are ahealthy relationship.
Jennifer Maneely (08:53):
Right. And I think there are a lot of
feelings that are associatedwith the trauma, right? And like
when we don't really hearpeople, and I want to point this
out, because I think this isreally important. And this is,
this is where our work comes in.
Right? Where How do I hearsomeone their story? Allow
myself not only to beuncomfortable, but how do I not
(09:17):
go into the place of pityingthem? Because pity just doesn't
serve anyone right? Like it'sit's not a great and that
person, I can tell you on theother side of things don't want
your pity.
Tracy (09:32):
That's right. That's the last thing they want. They don't
want you to feel they don't wantthat they really want to know is
that does it really matter whatI went through?
Jennifer Maneely (09:43):
Yes. And so when but it's not the sympathy.
Tracy (09:46):
It's the care. Wow, that must have been really hard as a
little girl. Yes. Whatever. Doyou remember what you were
thinking that day? What wentthrough your head when everybody
went to the little girl that wasshot, you know? Yeah. I'm here
for weeks of work from days,hours, really two days, two
weeks, two years. You're she's16. And she's just now going
(10:10):
from age three to 16 to gethelp, right? Yeah, I was never
feeling like I could tell thisto anybody. Yeah.
Jennifer Maneely (10:21):
And I, you know, for me, because we're
talking about loss as well. AndI know for the people that I
have lost in my own life. So itas difficult as it is, but as
more emotionally mature andhealthy I become, the more I
feel like, it's important for meto talk about those people.
(10:44):
Because there's something onethat you said that I think is
very important is when I when Italk about people that I really
care about. And even if it'spainful, in that moment, not
only am I connected to myself,but I'm connected to them,
right. And I'm sure that shewanted to feel connected to her
(11:06):
sister, connected to her mom andconnected to, you know, the
situation and even as hard as,as it is, is even connected to
her own feelings about thesituation. And so she has that
platform, it creates thissecurity, for her to feel like
(11:26):
she can really be supported ingoing through those feelings for
herself. Isn't that kind of a,an important thing for people?
Tracy (11:44):
I agree with you wholeheartedly. And in this
particular case, she's beenthrough numerous counselors in
the process, but went becausedad and stepmom made her go
through it right, you know, yougo through, but she wasn't ready
yet. Right. And it was becausein those initial times when the
(12:08):
trauma first happened, she wasshut down. So what he what was
the the, the the layer that sheput on us? I don't matter? Yeah.
I'm not chosen. Not only youknow, of course, everybody she
has said to me, had to deal withmy little sister who was laying
there and ended up dying inroute to the hospital. But then
(12:31):
it was Daddy. And then it wasmama. And then you know, Mama
ends up dying because she'spregnant. You know, this story,
like you've I mean, it's likealphas, something of a lifetime.
But for her, it was like, therewas never a time for her. And
it's like, there's never goingto be the perfect time for you
to break off all those layersthat you put online, since that
(12:55):
little tiny girl. But at thesame time you you've taken on
the persona is that little girl,she looks like a little girl. Ya
know what I mean? When shespeaks the voice and all of it,
I'm like, go back. Yeah. Whatwere your thoughts in that day?
And you wish she said, Hey, I'mmad or doesn't even see me here.
(13:18):
She didn't know how to processthe death. She didn't know how
to process all the other thingsthat came about over the years.
Is that so? Yeah, just feelinglike you matter. And there's no
more that rejection, you know?
And that's where I think she is,is that I wasn't her words were
I wasn't chosen. Yeah. But thinkof a three year old little girl,
(13:41):
what would a three year oldlittle girl went back to the
developmental history. Shedidn't have a lot of language at
that time. Dad was betweenAmerica and you know, in Mexico,
and she didn't have a reallystrong foundation of language.
So what was her strong way ofinterpreting and taking in
information was super visual inher auditory. Yeah. And it was
(14:04):
very skied, it was very off.
Because, you know, know whatparent wants to be a bad parent,
my dad and mom, just nobody,nobody looked at me to see what
I needed. Right. But I thinkthat all parents do, what they
can do. And here they were withtheir own grief and loss, and a
(14:28):
huge trauma that was like somany implications from a legal
standpoint because it involvedthe gun that was in the house,
you know, and the father took onthe it's my thought I had a
loaded gun in the house and thenanother child playing with the
gun, you know, but she was thelittle sister who was in between
and didn't get shot. So she'slike, I'm just the one that no
(14:50):
way wishes. But that's reallynot what happened at all. The
three year old cognition how sheperceived it,
Jennifer Maneely (14:58):
isn't that an interesting because it's it's
what you're saying is it's theperceptions of what happened,
right? She didn't get shot. Andsomehow now, that grew into a
belief that she didn't met like,Why? Why did I get shot, right?
Like it I don't mean to laugh,because not funny, but it is
uncomfortable. And that's my wayof dealing with it. Right? But
(15:22):
but it's, it's that it's thatkind of how people are
perceiving. And this issomething I want to bring
forward to my audience, because,you know, this is the audience
that we're talking about where,you know, I'm working with
families that have these lovedones with substance abuse. So
what does all of this have to dowith that particular thing, and
(15:46):
this is, what I'll say is whenyou talk about being heard that
voice that safety, I can't tellyou how many because I'm in
recovery. And the pain that I'veheard 1000s of people talk about
is how they wish that theirparents just understood that
(16:11):
their parents heard theirexperience that they just heard,
and this is as grown people inrecovery, not the, you know, the
10 year old or whatever. Butthese are the grown people that
cry in meetings, begging andpleading that they had a better
connection with their parents,but their parents just won't
(16:32):
hear them, they won't listen tothem. They don't, they don't
want to understand they don'twant to, you know, deal with it.
And so that's really painful forthem. And I think about a life
changing moment, even in thelast maybe like for five years
for myself, was when I was ableto have a really difficult
(16:55):
conversation with my mom aboutsomething. And at first, she did
what, I think a human any humanbeing has a tendency to do,
wants to push back and cut itoff it No. And I kind of said,
No, we're going to talk aboutthis matters. And of course, I'm
(17:19):
older, I'm mature, I have abetter language, I can kind of
say, No, we're gonna talk like,I can kind of say that, but me
just being able to say, my sideof the story, and heard not go
into defensiveness and just hearthat. And even not that she had
(17:46):
a part to own necessarily, butthere was like a more of that I
can hear like, I'm going tostand and hear what you're
seeing as uncomfortable as itmakes me. Somehow, and I don't
that moment for me, and I don'teven think I've talked to her
about this shifted so manythings, because I felt like I
(18:10):
could actually finally move on.
Now, it was not her job to helpme move on. But it certainly
helped. Oh, absolutely, I wouldhave had to find a different way
to do that. That would have notbeen as almost instant. If you
could say,
Tracy (18:33):
you know, if not even therapeutic right? It will set
you back instead of forwardcould
Jennifer Maneely (18:39):
have I mean, there's so many ways that could
have been but her being groundedin herself enough in that
moment, to just hear what myexperience was like whether it
was true or not, is irrelevant.
But what my experience of thesituation was, and my
perceptions of the situation.
(19:05):
That's all I just wanted peopleto hear is that this is what I
experienced. And so when I thinkabout my audience, and how
important it is, how can we bevery clear on ourselves, to not
(19:25):
put a wall a metaphorical wallbetween me and what someone else
is saying? Just because it'seither true or not true? It's
their perception is of thetruth. We can sift out the real
truth later. But they have to beable to state their perceptions
of the truth in order to get tothe truth.
Tracy (19:44):
It's like Be quiet. Be quiet. Be quiet is what I've
learned to speak quiet. Bequiet, be quiet, Tracy. Even if
it doesn't seem rational, itdoesn't seem logical, but that's
not the way it really is, youknow, but being quiet Yeah,
empathetic. Just a nod. Yeah.
Wow, what was that? Like foryou? Yeah. Even it opens the
(20:06):
door for them to go, Oh, they'rehearing me and go deeper,
deeper. Tell me more about that.
What? What was that, like whenyou thought that? And it's like
when you can go deeper and havethose really good listening ears
that they're like, talkingthemselves through what's truth?
(20:32):
And what's this place is becausechildren and even adults
disconnect, right? And so theirreality does become really
skewed, but just allowing themto talk it through in everyday
life, right, you know, and thenwe can talk it through and we
(20:52):
feel heard no matter what thesituation traumatic or not, it
helps us stay grounded. And inthe moment in the truth. And
teaching young people to stay intruth is really is my core is at
night. Because then they knowreality. Is that really what
(21:12):
happened? But I don't have tosay it even like that. It's just
the nods. It's just the Wow. Andthen like, well, well, wait a
minute, let me you know, whenthey start, yeah. And as they
begin to process, becausethey've packed it in so deep,
and you can hear some that theirstories are so deep, that when
(21:34):
they start pulling it out, well,she's not shutting me down,
dang, I'm gonna go further. Youknow, it just allows for those
things that need to be uprootedand broken up. You know that
portions? Wow, you you get it?
That's what you get healing andit doesn't happen in one
(21:54):
session? No, you start sessiontwo. And you're like telling me
last week you were data data?
And then they're like, Whoa, shedidn't forget? No, no. Hearing
people is the I think with thebest skills that whether you're
in a workplace or a therapeuticsession, or family in the den,
(22:18):
you know, listening is a skillthat is far underrated in
society, they were everybody'sgot a voice talking on social
media, you know, but when you'rein one on one relationship with
somebody, you're just saying,Wow, I never knew you went
through all that. And and whenwe start talking about family,
(22:42):
and I'll be the first to say,I've got stuff in my family. And
so you know, allowing somebodyto say I was at a really bad
place in my life. And this iswhat I did. Wow. I didn't know.
Yeah, you don't have to haveeloquent words or language. It's
(23:04):
just having the empathy and theheart connection that can bring
healing in. I know, I'm not, youknow, yes, I've got degrees. But
I submit that a heart connectionbrings greater healing any day
that any all the letters in theworld you can have after your
name, right? And just whatyou're doing in your in your
(23:25):
podcast.
Jennifer Maneely (23:27):
Yeah. Well, and you know, a lot of people
when I, whenever I put, I starttalking about boundaries, I
think a lot of peopleimmediately make this assumption
or this visualization, thatthey're like, oh, I have to put
a wall between me and anotherperson. Right? And like, they're
like, Oh, that's souncomfortable. And I'm like, you
(23:47):
know, listen, when I talk aboutcreating like the unbreakable
boundaries, I am talking abouthow do I be very clear in
myself, to remain in connectionwith another person. Right,
because I think that's soimportant. It's not actually
it's about tearing the wallsdown, but also being mindful of
(24:11):
where we're sacrificingourselves. And let's not do
that, right, let's not sacrificeourselves. But if you're going
to have a relationship with aperson that is doing a lot of
things that puts you at risk oras dangerous or whatever, let's
talk about how you can stay outof that, but also how you're
going to stay in a relationshipwith that person. And that comes
(24:33):
with a lot of clarity and backto what you're saying about
really being heard andlistening. Really listening,
what it takes is that competenceto sit and not take things
personally that there
Tracy (24:50):
you go, and you know, I'm not going to punish you because
you have this view or thisthought or you handled your
situation differently than waythen I think you should are the
way that I would Should I say itthat way? Right? No, we don't
have to agree. people disagreeall the time. But it's in that
place of honoring and notdisrespecting, because this was
(25:15):
the path I went down. But God, Irealized it was the wrong. I
want to get back to here, butpeople just push me further
apart. Because that moment,you're real. And you say, you
know, that thing that they know,but you know, we needed to talk
about it, and just have thosehugs in that, you know, gosh,
(25:35):
I'm so sorry, I did not listenvery well. And that you felt the
need to do that. And to validateand honor people. I think our
society has really lost sight ofa lot of that good stuff, you
know, of honor, of
Jennifer Maneely (25:50):
honor. And going beyond of like, when we
talk about listening, it's notalways necessarily, what are
they saying? Versus what arethey really saying, right, and
really hearing them and whatthey're really saying, like,
asking questions to spark aconversation to get a clear idea
(26:12):
of where they're getting thisinformation. And why did they
perceive it in that way? So, youknow, I guess, I, there was so
many things that I did not know,were happening when I was
growing up. Because, you know,as parents and kids, there's
just this, we're not going toshare everything with the kids
(26:33):
that's happening. We're justnot, you shouldn't do that.
Tracy (26:37):
You need to share everything with a kid. That's
right. Right, it but it doesn't
Jennifer Maneely (26:41):
mean that the kid isn't developing a
perception around what'shappening with the information
that they're presented with,
Tracy (26:48):
go there, we should go.
But you need to do it on ahealthy level, that's not going
to cause fear and produce moreanxiety. But if a child is
perceiving that someone's usingand there's something off in
your home, I think a platformwhere you can say, you know, you
may have overheard somethinglast night? Yeah. What what was
(27:10):
going through your head, andexplaining and giving enough
explanation on a child levelthat we're going through
something, but what are yourquestions, that gives them their
voice, and a same time you'regetting to say, Man, I really
messed up last spring, and itprobably didn't feel so good in
(27:31):
our home. But I just think it'sI think parents indulge too
much. And they don't know,they're either doing nothing or
saying nothing. Or they're goingover the top and telling the
child everything. And you don'thave to do that. Yeah. Just want
to know, did you know that I wasin the other ring. Did you know
I knew so. And so. Wow. Whatwere you thinking? Just let them
(27:57):
say it? Yeah. Tell them whatreally was going on. Just hear
what they got to say. andvalidate that. I didn't mean for
all that to happen.
Jennifer Maneely (28:08):
Yeah, I was.
This brings up an interestingstory. So I was I was probably
five years old. You know, Idon't remember everything when
I'm five. But this stuck out tome, right. And my mom and I have
since talked about this. And weI kind of laugh at it now. But I
remember a very specific day, inwhich my mom got very, very
upset what she was upset with. Ihave no idea. I do now because
(28:31):
we talked about it. But I'm atthe time. I'm five years old,
and all I know is my mom isscreaming into her pillow.
Right? That's the onlyinformation I have is screaming
into the pillow. Okay, now, myfive year old little kid brain
(28:52):
is sitting there looking at hergoing mom is really upset. What
have I done wrong? That's right.
Yeah. Right. So she must bereally mad at something. But she
does. She's so mad at me. Yeah,they India. She doesn't want
(29:13):
to talk about it because it's sobad. Now. What have I done
recently that would make herthat mad? Yeah, so now my five
little kid year old brain I'mthinking was it this was it that
was it. This Now eventually, youknow, I'm like, Okay, well,
she's as a five year old. I amnot asking my mom that screaming
into the pillow. What's wrong orasking her to because I don't
(29:39):
even she didn't even know I wasthere. She didn't know that I
this was part of my experience,even as an adult, right? We talk
about it later. She goes yeah,you know what? I used to do that
a lot when I got really mad atmy own mom
because she was saying Somethingthat was just so
Tracy (30:02):
that is giving me advice this overwhelming,
Jennifer Maneely (30:05):
right. And like, I think, you know, I think
my grandmother, at least towardsme, and in the relationship, my,
my grandmother loves me. But shewas very hard on my mom when it
came to me. And she said a lotof not really wonderful things
to my mom about me, but I didn'tknow any of that. I didn't know
that my mom would get angry andyell into her pillow. Because
(30:31):
she was upset with her mom,right? Like, because I only have
my relationship with mygrandmother, which was very
loving, very kind, verysupportive. But my mom had her
own relationship. And it wasvery different. And, but But my
point in saying that is mylittle kid brain took a
(30:54):
situation and made a whole lotof beliefs about that situation,
that it somehow had to do withme,
Tracy (31:01):
internalized.
Jennifer Maneely (31:03):
And I grew up with that. And now Now I'm in
recovery. And years and yearslater, I think about those
things. And I get to ask my momabout her experience. And now
I'm in a situation where it'slike, man, all of these really
like deep beliefs are stillimpacting my journey that I
(31:27):
created in my mom is notresponsible for that piece of
things. Because she doesn't knowhow I internalized situations
that had nothing to do with her.
You see,
Tracy (31:43):
so having that conversation, just what you said
was when humor that time, and Iwant to process this, stay with
me and mom, you know, when youthink of adults to their parent,
this is what I remember. And aparent being able to say, Well,
(32:03):
what did you need at thatmoment? What did you need? What
at that little girl? And amoment that mom says, Well, let
me give that now. Or the dadsays, let me give that now. It
just allows for forgiveness tocome in and healing to come
whatever it was that that childneeded. Yeah. changes the
(32:23):
perception of everything. Youmean, you really felt that way?
Yeah, and that little girlsuddenly goes from five all of a
sudden, to like eight or 10, youknow, and moving ahead. And the
next memory that really settledin memories, I think are truly
Jen. When I think of grief andloss, they're the I won't say
(32:47):
that pillar, I'll say they'rethe blanket of healing and hope.
Because you know, when you haveat least one good memory that
you can pull out, it's thatamazing fuzzy blanket that we
all have, you know, sitting onthe couch, or, you know, across
the bed that we can just put on.
And good memories are what bringhope into situations. Well, what
(33:09):
I hoped for, which is what isneeded. If I had had this, that
this could have been theoutcome. So you've got those
ideas of I need, you know,child, or adult needing a voice
and safe and secure andunconditional positive regard.
(33:29):
But also knowing and being ableto have that person that they
can have a dialogue with thatallows for them to say what was
needed. And even in this day,what do you need? How can I help
you? And it just brings them outand up into the from the there
to the here in the now. And it'san it's beautiful stories. It's
(33:54):
a beautiful story.
Jennifer Maneely (33:58):
And I because I'm thinking about like a lot of
times, you know, the people thatare deep into substance abuse,
and they're trying to have theserelationships with the the
parents that don't understandthey get into these arguments
all the time, right? You weresuch a shitty mom or shitty dad
or whatever you were so mean.
And but imagine, imaginechanging the conversation that
(34:25):
says you know what, you'reright. I may have not been the
best parent that you needed atthat moment. Right? Like, and I
if I could do somethingdifferent, I totally would but I
cannot change the past. The onlything that I can do to support
you and help you is is how arewe going to move forward? That's
(34:47):
right. And it's like I amwilling because this was a
pivotal moment even for my momwhen I was a set. This is right
before I got it like the daybefore I got into rehab she She
caught, everything caught up tome in this day, right? And I'm
sitting there kind of prettyhigh not to have completely
(35:08):
hearing everything that she'ssaying to me in this in this
moment that I'm like, caught.
Yeah, um, and she goes, Listen,you know, we, I may not have
been the best mom, I, I havetake responsibility for some
things. And when you're ready towork through those things I am
(35:31):
here, we will work through them.
But I am not going to continueto allow, you know, these kinds
of things into my life, I cannothave you in my life, if you're
acting in this way, but I am sohappy to it. She didn't say this
is not verbatim. This is ageneralization. But the general
(35:53):
idea was, I will work on mystuff as a parent, if you're
willing to work on your stuff,and figure your shit out. But
this is not Yeah. You're usingand your behavior and all of
this stuff right now, that's noton me.
Tracy (36:15):
We all have choices, these this choice that you're
making, but in every choice,there's this way it can bring us
together if we're willing tohave some tough conversation.
And I'm not just saying words tobe saying words, when you you
know, somebody loves you, andyou love them. When you can have
(36:35):
you really weren't. You know, orI was a really badass kid.
Jennifer Maneely (36:42):
Right. But I was doing what
Tracy (36:45):
I could manage. And I know that I was a 16 year old
mom, I get I know, I was notthere. But man. Fast forward to
my mid 50s, I have garnered alot of wisdom and a lot of tools
and skills that make me have anability in an even greater way
(37:08):
to go back and say, right, youneed to have a conversation.
Yeah, that's where the memorypart comes in. I remember one
time, I probably hurt you withthings I said, or what had
around you. You know, yeah, Ithink I think kids need to hear
that. So when you were sayingthat while ago, about the child
(37:31):
saying, you know, something thathappened? I think those are
conversations that are veryimportant in healing, is
sometimes children just want toknow, because parents, we I
think children put their parentsup here and that they never made
mistakes, when in fact, Ireally, I developed parenting
(37:52):
skills from my parents, whichwere really bad because it was
all about addiction, you know,but I ran out of the house and
said, I don't want to watch Idon't want to be a part of this.
And now but you know, again,fast forwarding ahead, I've been
able to go back and say, even tomy own mom, now my father is
dead, but to say this happened,or that happened and what really
(38:17):
happened because I was just alittle girl, and I probably got
it all wrong. Yeah. And I thinkthat is a really important step.
And even this week, I wasworking with some teen moms,
because that's one of the thingsthat is truly a passion of mine,
because I wasn't young mom, Jenis I gave them all an oyster
(38:37):
shell with a pearl glued to it.
And I said, Do you know where apearl came from, and you're
like, what you know. But pearlsare formed from the dirt. And
you know, and I said to them,and I say this, and I'm not
trying to just have a lot offluff. But the foundation of
what child and family has beenbuilt out. It's been built out
(38:59):
of the dirt, those things thatnobody else wants to talk about
that elephant in the room thatyou know, nobody else would talk
about my father, there was, youknow, the drugs, the alcohol, I
was molested all of these thingsnobody wants to talk about. And
even in my teenage years, Ireally didn't understand that.
(39:20):
But in this day, I was able toput a layer on there to preserve
it as my story and in to help somany other people see that
they're not alone in the journeyand that's where the security
and the connection comes from.
You are not alone. And the veryfoundation of what Child and
(39:44):
Family The dirt is what he'sused to build the foundation of
the work we do in trauma, griefand loss because there's
transparency i i used to feel somuch shame. And now it's like
you If it helps this child, orit helps this mother or it helps
this mother and father, and howthey parent now, I don't, I
(40:08):
don't really care anymore, Idon't care how I'm perceived to
the outer world, I just wantthem to say, these are tools
that might be good and maybebetter in your toolbox and serve
you well, if you really want toconnect to your son or your
daughter, we have to be willingto learn and to grow and have
new ways to, to love and love.
Well, yeah,
Jennifer Maneely (40:31):
yeah. And, you know, it's this is this is kind
of a little bit of my belief isis that all of these core
principles, connection, love,security, safety, all of that
stuff that is at the core, itnever changes in the human, come
on what we need, right? It maystart presenting differently, we
(40:53):
may get better at hiding andpretending like it doesn't
exist, or like, it doesn'tbother us. But at the core of
it, we need this. And I, youknow, going back to something
very important that you said ishaving the tough conversations
and being present to the toughconversations, right? This is a
(41:15):
lot of when I because a lot ofpeople in this community, they
talk about tough love, andthey're like, Oh, I, I don't
think tough love is reallyworks. And it really, you know,
I it didn't feel good. And I sayI said tough love is not about
being tough on them. It's abouthaving or making decisions that
(41:36):
are tough to do. And it's aboutalso having those tough
conversations, and being verygrounded and present to that.
Tracy (41:45):
And if I might can add to that, maybe, because I've had to
practice this my own. So theremight be things that start to
come up inside of me. And italmost begins to feel that
between the two of you, whoeverit is, when you're having that
conversation, that tough lovemoment and say, you know, I
(42:06):
don't agree with you, we reallydo need to say in this, but I'm
a little overwhelmed, right?
This, can we take five and comeback? Because this is not going
to go well. If we you know, ifyou know that you aren't hearing
them, you're you know thatthere's either on misperceiving
what they're saving onmisunderstanding, or either they
(42:26):
are really way off. It's stillwhatever I think being sold out
as a parent being sold out asthe child and saying I'm gonna
I'm willing to preserve ourlove. If we can keep that love
connection. You know, I got tobreak from this for a minute,
(42:48):
right? Yeah. But guy out here,you this is so important to you.
And I want you know, I love you.
But let's give it a few. Butlet's come right back. And given
it an appointed time, makingspace and a time specifically
for that, I think is is a toolthat every parent should have in
(43:08):
their toolbox, whether they'rearguing about the lunch box, or
they're arguing about somethingthat the kid heard the night
before the day before, andhaving regular conversations, no
matter what, don't let thembuild up for years. Yeah, have a
have a meal every night withyour kids, or as often as you
(43:30):
can, I'm sorry, I like you know,fast food meal every now and
then again, too. But there isno, there is no nothing that can
take the place of connection.
Jennifer Maneely (43:43):
And I say well, and I think culturally to
a certain extent we've lost andI want to get off on a tangent.
So I'm gonna say this and moveon, move on. But but because
like, you know, before all ofthe technology that really
distracted us and somehow madeour lives very efficient, but
(44:04):
also limits the actual realconversations that we're having
the, you know, we used to have.
This is not like, oh, the olddays kind of conversation, but
it's real, when we really usedto talk to each other because
that's what we had, right? Weused to share wisdom, because
we'd sit around at the dinnertable, no TV, no distractions.
(44:28):
All we had was like this iswhere our attention span has
greatly diminished is becauseall of the social media and this
isn't
Tracy (44:44):
a gaming
Jennifer Maneely (44:45):
TV. There's always let's be, we're not. This
isn't one of those like, oh, wecan't have this stuff, but it's
like we can and being mindful ofwhere also our human needs need
to also be met. And it's, we'vebeen talking a lot about that
connection, Social Media TV, allthe stuff are creating what I
(45:09):
like to think of as like falseconnections. So like Facebook,
Instagram, they're quoteunquote, connecting you but it's
not on a human need level. It'sjust in a technology way, not in
a heart like It's like more of aleft brain, not more of the
heart center way. So how are weconnecting at a real level
(45:33):
through the heart, and it'sthrough the conversations, the
real conversations, when you'reconnecting with someone else at
a heart level, not in in aFacebook or a message or a text
or whatever,
Tracy (45:49):
or move aiming. And I will tell you what I say to my
parents all the time, because Ido parenting classes often is,
if that is a big thing for yourfamily gaming, or Netflix or a
ballgame, whatever. If you'renot connected at the end of it.
(46:12):
Your your children don't they'renot going to trust me. If you're
doing this, you've got to moveand have the greatest, you're
gonna have the Waltons on if youremember who the Waltons are,
you can have the Waltons on, butif you're doing this, right,
right, what you need to do issay there's there's no
technology right now. Oh mygosh, it talk about it? Did you
(46:36):
see you know, John boy, or youknow, or maybe you can game
together. But it's purposeful,mindful, I love that you use the
word mindful and it's not when Isay mindful, I'm not talking to
fluky hooky, whatever mindful,I'm saying, I'm purposeful in
this because I want me you andif you know, whoever, you know,
(46:58):
the significant other is in thatpart of it, you need to be
connected. If it's my husbandsitting watching, you know, a
show on Netflix, or if it's as afamily, the whole goal of doing
it is not just that you're allsitting in the same room, right?
To be what you just saidconnection and relationship.
(47:20):
And, you know, I had a family, afamily class recently, and
someone said, so what is love?
And I don't know you everyonecan define it differently. But I
believe whether we're havingconversations right here, in
this podcast, or there'ssomebody in China or Iran,
wherever I believe it's Love issomething that is universal. And
(47:42):
we all want it. And it affectsaffection, the core word of
affection is effect. And we areeither affecting someone in a
positive and connected way orwe're emptying them. Yeah, my
heart as a daughter, a mother, agrandmother, an advocate for
(48:03):
other families is man, I want toconnect there to be an affection
that feels buckets. At the endof the day, I want to do more
feeling than I do MTN and I amhuman, I have temper. I have
feelings and emotions that needto be validated. And I just
(48:27):
think it's learning new tools ofhow to communicate and connect
that can change the dynamic offamily. And I just want to say
that I love what you're doing inthat. Putting the boundaries in
there is what makes all thedifference. Yeah, they are
(48:47):
unbreakable. I'm not going topunish you if you don't think
like me.
Jennifer Maneely (48:53):
Right? Well, it's not Yeah. God love you.
Tracy (48:57):
Because, you know, you crossed my boundary. But I might
need to say that's what that'snot making me feel loved in it.
Jennifer Maneely (49:05):
Right. And I crossed my own. Like, there's
times where, you know, I sayunbreakable boundaries. And
then, you know, people willalways be like, Oh, but what
about this? And what about that,and then I think I have to be
this guru. And people can'tever, like do something that I
don't like, right? But it's moreof like, okay, when something
happens, I'm going to take astep back. I'm going to be
(49:29):
aware, like, what was it that Ididn't like, and how can I
communicate with this person tosay, you know, this was not good
for me and be on like, honormyself every time so it doesn't
mean that someone isn't goingand I'm not like a hard person,
(49:51):
right? So I'm not going aroundand being mean and creating
distance between people becauseI think about boundaries. No,
it's more of like People knowexactly what I willing to accept
into my life and what I'm notwilling to accept, through a
loving and caring way when Icommunicate of like, yeah, man,
(50:11):
this, that's not going to be myrole. There's just certain
people, I love them. I'm notgoing to hang out with them.
Yeah, because it's not, it's,it's their behaviors impact my
life too much. Sure, when thosebehaviors change. And I don't
feel uncomfortable anymore orunsafe, that person is 100%
(50:35):
allowed back into my life, Idon't care who that person is.
That person is allowed back intomy life, when the behaviors that
are making me feel uncomfortableand unsafe, are no longer
present. Everyone has a right tochange. Sure. And we can have
the difficult conversations, ifthey've hurt me in some way. If
they've lied, if they've donewhatever is like, look, this is
(50:57):
my experience. This is where Idon't trust you. This is where
this is why I don't you know,but you can earn it. Right?
Everyone has the right to earnit back. That's good stuff.
That's how that's how I see it.
And one more thing, I just wantto touch on this just a little
bit. And then I really want totalk about this camp that you
have going on. But what we'vebeen talking about is this
(51:21):
connection. And what does itlook like when we disconnect? So
when we're talking about havingthe tough conversations? And
when you were saying you needto? Sometimes you may need to
take a pause. And it's at thatpoint in which it's like how do
(51:43):
you know when you need to takethat pause? Well, am I getting
ready to react to a situation?
Am I getting ready to disconnectfrom this person? Do I feel
disconnected? Maybe that's thetime to take that pause and say
no, I'm gonna stay inconnection. But I'm feeling
(52:06):
disconnected. I'm going to goconnect with myself real quick.
And then I'm going to come back.
Tracy (52:10):
And I think that's just really how you say it. I had a
kid asked that recently. Well, Idon't really know how to do
that. It is a skill, like ridinga bike, the more you do it, and
we teach children, and that'swhat the heart of the camp is
giving new tools to parents andchildren. And when you can
honestly I remember saying to akid one day, he's like, I don't
(52:32):
think I'm brave enough to saythat to my mom. Think of
yourself as brave. And he saysWell, no. And I'm like, Well,
Jennifer Maneely (52:42):
you aren't brave. Yeah, you can
Tracy (52:45):
never ever be brave until that thing you're afraid of you
just do it. Yeah. But mom, Ireally need to talk to you. But
I can't right now. And it'sokay. As long as you know, in
teaching children to, you know,it's something I feel like we've
lost a long ways down the roadwas disrespect, is respect, that
(53:10):
this respect is the place thatwe all from, you know, from
societal, what is expected inthe norm is rage and yelling,
and, you know, add me Me, me, meme what I need. But we can say
the reason if you can set it upin the contact that the reason
(53:31):
that I'm here is because Ireally do want to hear you. But
I think it's important for youto hear me too. And let's go
ahead and set it up that, youknow, if you're, you know, your
voice gets really high. Or minegets really hot, we might you
might need to remind me, we needto take five
Jennifer Maneely (53:51):
Yeah. So you're you're saying set the
conditions and create the spaceintentionally. When wonderfully,
yes, mindfully. And we're, we'regoing to have this, but here are
some of the guidelines thatwe're going to stick to when
this happens. This is how we'regoing to handle it when this
(54:12):
happens. This is how we're gonnahandle it. When you get to a
certain point of upsetness.
Where, you know, like, we'regonna take a break, we're good.
Yeah. So it's like, how do weintentionally and mindfully
create the space? Instead ofjust, you know,
Tracy (54:31):
when we know we've got those big things that and I
don't like using the term toooften, so that, but it's so
true. The elephant in the room,when there are things that you
know, have gone on for way toolong and no one's address them.
I believe as parents, it's ourresponsibility to initiate that.
Jennifer Maneely (54:53):
Yeah. I call those sometimes depending on
who's in front of me. It's theelephant in the room, or what
are the Missing conversationsthat we're not having right?
What's the missing conversationthat we need to have? Right?
What's that
Tracy (55:08):
thing that you've always you have felt a need to talk
about and you want to talkabout? Or just understand what
is it you need to understandabout me and me?
Jennifer Maneely (55:19):
Yeah, it's good stuff. That's, you know,
we've talked a lot about, we'vehinted at, like, tools and
resources. And you you actuallyfor kids, I'm gonna let you talk
about it. But you have thenarrow way ranch.
Tracy (55:39):
We have used the narrow way ranch we I will say, last
year, we outgrew we had so manypeople come that we now it was a
rather large farm. But becauseof parking and the need for
space, we're looking forsomething a little bigger this
Jennifer Maneely (55:57):
year, right?
All Seasons green all seasons,
Tracy (56:01):
and we decided we rebranded instead of saying all
seasons heal, instead of sayingall seasons grief camp, it's an
all seasons healing heart. Yes,I love it. And so throughout all
seasons, because stuff continuesto come up, you've got
anniversaries, you've gotbirthdays, you've got holidays,
(56:23):
where the grief will resurface.
And I think a lot of people, Iremember being someone saying to
me, there's the grief lady inthe grocery store. My
granddaughter, and I'm like,it's kind of an honor that the
grief, somebody's got to do andhelp people have the tools they
need. Grief is in everything,not just death, just loss of
(56:46):
relationships, loss of seasons,you know, you know, we lose
time. Yeah, we've lost time. Andthat is grief. You know, when
there's a parent and a child andwe've lost time together. That's
loss, yes, grief, and it makesyou angry, it makes you go, I
could have done this differentor I could have done that
(57:08):
different. I'm really sad aboutall those stages of grief. And
it really just stood out to meprobably about two years into
being in private practice, thatfamilies need a voice. They need
to be able to come together in aday or a weekend. And we started
out doing weekends. And we'rehoping to grow it into a
(57:30):
different way. And every year wewere understanding more what
families need in that process ofgrief and loss, but it's a day
of hope. You know, what is itthat you need? What do you hope
will happen? And a lot of it canbe when there's adults there
with parents is it's it'sconnection. Yeah, it's awesome.
(57:53):
Both together, learning newskill, found newfound skills
together, but doing some funstuff together, like horseback
riding, archery, music and artshaving a meal together, learning
about how you cultivaterelationship when there has been
a hiccup in the road. Yeah, andso it's my favorite thing that I
(58:17):
do. And I could say probablyanother hour apart about all
seasons healing heart, but it isabsolutely a beautiful day. Like
I said, we do the activities,but we share a meal together.
But at the end, we have abutterfly release, oh, every
participant gets a littleenvelope with their butterflies.
(58:39):
And when you see hundreds ofbutterflies go up at one time.
It's just you know, thebutterfly in itself is a symbol
of transformation. There's newlife and newfound hope coming.
It is a great day. Yeah, it is.
It's truly by far my favoritething we do.
Jennifer Maneely (59:01):
I think and I think that's so amazing. And,
and just especially touching onjust how important it is for
people to experience differentthings that bring them joy and
connection with themselves,connect them with nature. Get
them outside, right. And it goesall into that you know that
(59:25):
safety, security love. How dothey have a platform to feel
safe about opening up andcommunicating and a lot of
times, you know even this withmy art because of the nature of
it. People just feel very safeto just start talking because
all of a sudden they just feelconfident they feel brave. They
(59:49):
feel like empowered. And that'swhat you know all this is and
people can find that withinthemselves. So whether you know
they have a love for the arts.
They have a love for the UKHistory and stuff, the music,
the all of those days, it's soimportant for people to find
their thing that they can reallyhold on to. So that in the
darkest of the moments, theyhave something to lean on, they
(01:00:13):
know can bring them and balanceout that I think that
Tracy (01:00:20):
people get trapped in it, Jen, it trapped in the routine,
the monotony of the thing thatthey picked up that wasn't
healthy. And cognitivebehavioral standpoint, when you
remove something, and evenspiritually, you want to replace
it with the opposite, somethingreally, really good and healthy.
(01:00:42):
And I don't think there's anysubstitute for nature and being
outdoors, whether it's trail oroff, whether it's bows and
arrows, it's our archery or it'shorseback, you know, showing
them you know, we don't justjump on the horse, we got to
have that relationship. Yeah, Iasked that horse to talk to him,
say something to him, brushthem, touch, you know, that's
(01:01:04):
five love languages of touch,and quality, time, and words of
affirmation. All those thingsare important. And that's really
what is a day is to launch allof that and then have follow up
the weeks to come. Some peopledo come from all over and they
need that Zoom. But there aremany families that are like, Oh,
(01:01:24):
for the few, first few weeks,because we do it in late spring,
it's the last Saturday in April.
And you know, we meet people,wherever they are, there are
some people that can give adonation, but those that can't,
it's okay. We want to bring hopeto as many people as we can, in
the Carolinas, you know.
Jennifer Maneely (01:01:43):
Absolutely.
Absolutely. And I think what youjust said is so important, even
for the parents out there,because I think we can, we can
all find ourselves a littlestuck in that darkness, right
and just like it because it'slike, if you have so many events
that are hitting you that youdon't know how you don't, you
haven't developed the tools tofigure out how to handle that I
think we can, we can findourselves really stuck. And I
(01:02:05):
think getting out. And this isone of the things that I work a
lot with parents that findthemselves in this is one of the
first things is like, first, wegot to get you back connected to
yourself to Nate, like get out,go fight, you know, get out of
this darkness that you're in.
And then we can make some somedifferent decisions.
Tracy (01:02:27):
So tell you what I liken it to, and then I know we need
to be wrapping things up. But Ihad a family member that was
incarcerated because ofaddictions. And you know, just
took him down a path. I justadore him. He's, he's my
brother, you know, and I don'teven mind me using that part
about his story. And he stayedwith us, and I'm like, I'm here
(01:02:49):
for you. And after beingincarcerated, though, when
you're in captivity, you're inbondage to this addiction. You
know, I remember him saying tome, um, I'm not really sure who
to connect to or what to connectmyself to. But when you can have
a space and a day that this iswhat we're doing. And you're
(01:03:11):
given them the right tools.
These are the right places, itmay not be with me, but here you
can go over here, this is whatyou have, when you go home to
connect, you are truly givingpeople those resources that they
need. Then the ground becauseyou come straight out. You're
like, oh, I don't know what todo. Who do I listen to? That's
what my heart is in all seasonshealing heart is that the road
(01:03:34):
not be too rocky. Yeah, we wantthere to be, you know, this is
safe. This is good. This is goodfor you. But it's going to be
good if you got kids too. Thisis what you could be doing
instead of this. So
Jennifer Maneely (01:03:51):
yeah, wow.
This has been such a greatconversation. I'm so grateful
one to get to a chance toreconnect with you and to just
continue the the greatconversation we were having.
This is one of the reasons why Iwas like, when we kept talking,
I said, Oh, man, we gotta likerecord this conversation.
Because it's so powerful, right?
(01:04:11):
Like
Tracy (01:04:11):
me, people like us too often that have the same heart.
Jennifer Maneely (01:04:16):
Right? But it's also like, oh, man, we just
this is the these are theconversations, where it's like,
we may not always have aperfectly ribbond up bow tied up
solution to every problem. Butit's like, here we are, we're
just going to keep talking aboutit. We're going to talk about
(01:04:38):
some of the tools that a personcan use when they find
themselves in a place that thereisn't a clean cut solution to a
big problem, right? Okay.
There's not a clean cutsolution, and yet you're still
faced with the problem. What doyou do? And this, these are the
conversations it's like okay,well, these are the tools to
help you I manage yourself totalk about what do you need the
(01:05:01):
safety, security love, it's allthe same. Whether you're that
five year old kid, or whetheryou're the 60 7080 year old mom,
grandmother or whatever, it'sall the same.
Tracy (01:05:15):
Me the words I need are your magic wands. Yes, this is
what I feel I need. And thenthis passing that to that person
in front of you and saying, sowhat is it you feel you need? So
it's though what we need, fromwhat I need to what we need. And
then it's from there when youpurpose full mindful that our
(01:05:39):
goal is to love well, toconnect. It can't be anything
but a win win and healing in thejourney.
Jennifer Maneely (01:05:47):
Yeah, absolutely. Well, thank you
again, so much. Thank you. Andthank you for listening to this
podcast. If you want to listento more or find more information
out about this podcast and moreof what I do to help families
you can go check out my page atunbreakable boundaries
podcast.com It's full of othergreat podcasts just like this
one, full of other greatresources. Please remember to
(01:06:10):
share this podcast with othersyou never know who may need to
hear this people are oftenhiding their battles in this
arena. And sharing is a greatway to provide this valuable
resource to a person. You maynot even know who needs it. And
don't forget, there is alwayshope, even when things seem the
most hopeless.
Tracy (01:06:31):
That's good. Thank you
Welcome back to the unbreakable boundaries
podcast with your host myself,Jennifer Maneely. I am really
excited for this upcoming guest.
Her name is Tracy Redfern. And Imet her at an interesting place
it was at my ski lake of allplaces, waterski like it all
places, and I had put up myartwork, some of you have heard
(00:24):
about my artwork, if you haveit, you can definitely go check
it out. It's a lot ofinspirational art with a lot of
really amazing quotes. And so Ithrew this thing up and was
like, I don't know what's gonnahappen, but we'll just see. And
this is how I met Tracy. So Iput it up, had no expectations,
(00:44):
I come down, I'm sitting and shesays, Oh, my gosh, I just love
this. And in that launched abeautiful conversation to where
we're here now. So Tracy, thankyou so much for coming on. I'm
so excited to have you. Thankyou for allowing me to be a part
of Jen. Yes. And so I think I'mreally what started sparking
(01:06):
this conversation was she wassaying how, you know, she works
with schools, as a traumaprofessional, correct, you can
always correct me if I'm notusing the right language. And
obviously, when she brings upsomething like trauma or grief
and kids, I'm like, let's, uh,we need to have this
(01:28):
conversation. So
Tracy (01:32):
he was on right,
Jennifer Maneely (01:34):
it was on from there. I was like, Well, let me
tell you, and, and, you know, Istarted telling her a little bit
about what I do, working withfamilies that have substance
abuse issues. And that's how wekind of got started on that
really big conversation, becausehow much does this the the
trauma and the adolescentexperience, kind of, a lot of
(01:58):
times, we'll go into what we seethat turns into like an
addiction, or people that havethe substance abuse issues, I'll
get so many calls on parentsthat really focus a lot on that.
Maybe that traumatic event orsomething that happened to
people when they were younger.
And now here we are, yearslater, as it continues to
(02:21):
present and in how it kind of,we're looking at some of those
developmental needs that gosometimes unmet, that aren't
even ours as parents or theschools that they're not
necessarily ours to meet. But itis good to know what those needs
(02:42):
are so that we can support thethe adolescents and the kids and
finding those needs is thatTracy, please feel free to chime
in.
Tracy (02:58):
And thank you, you're on it. I think that we're hitting
all those things that areimportant.
Jennifer Maneely (03:03):
Yes. And you know, we were talking about the
kind of that grief and the needsand the trauma. And across the
board, what would you say wouldbe the top three things that
you're looking for that youthink that these kids, I'm gonna
(03:26):
just refer to people as kids,that these kids kind of need to
support themselves through theirexperience that they're having
an adolescence,
Tracy (03:36):
I'd have to say the top three things. In terms of
trauma, grief and loss, Jenwould have to be a voice the
first thing was, it's my voicematters most, which is your
story. The child's story. I havea young girl right now that just
(03:58):
came from Mexico, horriblethings. Little little sister was
was murdered. And then she getsleft behind because dad comes
here to look for work in Americaand the grandma's boyfriend
molester. And then there's justsome and then her actual
biological mother die. So youtalk about trauma, trauma,
(04:21):
trauma. Being a sister or asibling die, in itself is a huge
trauma, right? But then when youget cultural things, she ends up
here. I've lost my identity as aHispanic young woman. And then
I've lost my mother to death.
All of those things a childbecause these were all happening
(04:45):
at different ages of herchildhood. And her now to being
a teenager who is still while 16is that little three year old
girl who saw her one year oldsister die by gunfire Wow. So
giving her a voice. And I askedher, I was like, so what is the
one thing that that little girlneeded? Yeah, said I just wanted
(05:09):
somebody to pick me up, buteverybody's going to. And so
through all these years, shesaid, I don't matter. And what
is she doing every day? She'ssmoking pot, she's having
promiscuous sex, all to feelwhat, which I feel is the second
thing that a child needs isconnection. Yeah, there's gotta
(05:31):
be connection. And I mean, Iwould say safety first. But they
don't get that they just want tofeel hurt. Oh, my God, you see
me? Yeah, my sister died. But Iwas the one that was here when
she died. I saw it.
Jennifer Maneely (05:50):
And so when you say, you know, it's, you say
safety first. And you're talkingabout really? Someone being
heard. But isn't someone beingheard? Really a part of safety?
Tracy (06:06):
Oh, come on. You're so?
Yeah,
Jennifer Maneely (06:09):
yeah. Because
Tracy (06:11):
you're ready, you can't tell that story. It's got to be
a safe place, it's got to have asafe space, a haven to really be
able to just unload all of that,you know, right.
Jennifer Maneely (06:23):
And because I am thinking about so many times
where it and this is just thisis I think this is almost just a
natural thing. When someone istalking about something that is
difficult to hear by someoneelse, whether it's, you know,
(06:43):
even if it's like my own mother,or just someone in general. So I
think about what happens to meif someone calls me up, and
they're telling me a storythat's difficult and painful.
What is my immediate response?
And maybe I will start, like,kind of being uncomfortable. Oh,
(07:03):
yeah. And I might play like, I'mlistening. But I have not,
because the only thing I reallywant to do is get a phone. It's
uncomfortable, right? It's it'suncomfortable.
Tracy (07:18):
Oh my gosh, I remember like, you know, one of the
things we trained for ingraduate school is, you know,
you want to have that I'm notmoved by this. Right. What when,
I mean, it's just the way I'mcreated. And I know I'm doing
what I'm destined to do. Is thatheart to help others to be
(07:40):
healing, to bring healing intosituations. But there are still
almost every time because everystory is unique. You go, Oh, all
right. There's that wash andnothing at that makes me feel
like that. What is that makethat person feel like? It's
their shame that I've gonethrough this? What was that?
(08:01):
Like, you know, this after, youknow, so many years, I'm just
learning what you just said. Andthat's just to be in it. And to
listen with unconditionalpositive regard. Right? person
saying so that they know, dang,she heard me and that might be
(08:22):
just reiterating those keypoints that they said. So I've
got to really tune in instead oflistening to my heart. Like, oh,
my God, that child went throughthat. But just listening to them
is when children feel heard,then they don't feel like
they've got to open up doors tobe validated in venues, whether
(08:46):
it's promiscuous sex, drugs,alcohol, you know, right. When I
think I think there are ahealthy relationship.
Jennifer Maneely (08:53):
Right. And I think there are a lot of
feelings that are associatedwith the trauma, right? And like
when we don't really hearpeople, and I want to point this
out, because I think this isreally important. And this is,
this is where our work comes in.
Right? Where How do I hearsomeone their story? Allow
myself not only to beuncomfortable, but how do I not
(09:17):
go into the place of pityingthem? Because pity just doesn't
serve anyone right? Like it'sit's not a great and that
person, I can tell you on theother side of things don't want
your pity.
Tracy (09:32):
That's right. That's the last thing they want. They don't
want you to feel they don't wantthat they really want to know is
that does it really matter whatI went through?
Jennifer Maneely (09:43):
Yes. And so when but it's not the sympathy.
Tracy (09:46):
It's the care. Wow, that must have been really hard as a
little girl. Yes. Whatever. Doyou remember what you were
thinking that day? What wentthrough your head when everybody
went to the little girl that wasshot, you know? Yeah. I'm here
for weeks of work from days,hours, really two days, two
weeks, two years. You're she's16. And she's just now going
(10:10):
from age three to 16 to gethelp, right? Yeah, I was never
feeling like I could tell thisto anybody. Yeah.
Jennifer Maneely (10:21):
And I, you know, for me, because we're
talking about loss as well. AndI know for the people that I
have lost in my own life. So itas difficult as it is, but as
more emotionally mature andhealthy I become, the more I
feel like, it's important for meto talk about those people.
(10:44):
Because there's something onethat you said that I think is
very important is when I when Italk about people that I really
care about. And even if it'spainful, in that moment, not
only am I connected to myself,but I'm connected to them,
right. And I'm sure that shewanted to feel connected to her
(11:06):
sister, connected to her mom andconnected to, you know, the
situation and even as hard as,as it is, is even connected to
her own feelings about thesituation. And so she has that
platform, it creates thissecurity, for her to feel like
(11:26):
she can really be supported ingoing through those feelings for
herself. Isn't that kind of a,an important thing for people?
Tracy (11:44):
I agree with you wholeheartedly. And in this
particular case, she's beenthrough numerous counselors in
the process, but went becausedad and stepmom made her go
through it right, you know, yougo through, but she wasn't ready
yet. Right. And it was becausein those initial times when the
(12:08):
trauma first happened, she wasshut down. So what he what was
the the, the the layer that sheput on us? I don't matter? Yeah.
I'm not chosen. Not only youknow, of course, everybody she
has said to me, had to deal withmy little sister who was laying
there and ended up dying inroute to the hospital. But then
(12:31):
it was Daddy. And then it wasmama. And then you know, Mama
ends up dying because she'spregnant. You know, this story,
like you've I mean, it's likealphas, something of a lifetime.
But for her, it was like, therewas never a time for her. And
it's like, there's never goingto be the perfect time for you
to break off all those layersthat you put online, since that
(12:55):
little tiny girl. But at thesame time you you've taken on
the persona is that little girl,she looks like a little girl. Ya
know what I mean? When shespeaks the voice and all of it,
I'm like, go back. Yeah. Whatwere your thoughts in that day?
And you wish she said, Hey, I'mmad or doesn't even see me here.
(13:18):
She didn't know how to processthe death. She didn't know how
to process all the other thingsthat came about over the years.
Is that so? Yeah, just feelinglike you matter. And there's no
more that rejection, you know?
And that's where I think she is,is that I wasn't her words were
I wasn't chosen. Yeah. But thinkof a three year old little girl,
(13:41):
what would a three year oldlittle girl went back to the
developmental history. Shedidn't have a lot of language at
that time. Dad was betweenAmerica and you know, in Mexico,
and she didn't have a reallystrong foundation of language.
So what was her strong way ofinterpreting and taking in
information was super visual inher auditory. Yeah. And it was
(14:04):
very skied, it was very off.
Because, you know, know whatparent wants to be a bad parent,
my dad and mom, just nobody,nobody looked at me to see what
I needed. Right. But I thinkthat all parents do, what they
can do. And here they were withtheir own grief and loss, and a
(14:28):
huge trauma that was like somany implications from a legal
standpoint because it involvedthe gun that was in the house,
you know, and the father took onthe it's my thought I had a
loaded gun in the house and thenanother child playing with the
gun, you know, but she was thelittle sister who was in between
and didn't get shot. So she'slike, I'm just the one that no
(14:50):
way wishes. But that's reallynot what happened at all. The
three year old cognition how sheperceived it,
Jennifer Maneely (14:58):
isn't that an interesting because it's it's
what you're saying is it's theperceptions of what happened,
right? She didn't get shot. Andsomehow now, that grew into a
belief that she didn't met like,Why? Why did I get shot, right?
Like it I don't mean to laugh,because not funny, but it is
uncomfortable. And that's my wayof dealing with it. Right? But
(15:22):
but it's, it's that it's thatkind of how people are
perceiving. And this issomething I want to bring
forward to my audience, because,you know, this is the audience
that we're talking about where,you know, I'm working with
families that have these lovedones with substance abuse. So
what does all of this have to dowith that particular thing, and
(15:46):
this is, what I'll say is whenyou talk about being heard that
voice that safety, I can't tellyou how many because I'm in
recovery. And the pain that I'veheard 1000s of people talk about
is how they wish that theirparents just understood that
(16:11):
their parents heard theirexperience that they just heard,
and this is as grown people inrecovery, not the, you know, the
10 year old or whatever. Butthese are the grown people that
cry in meetings, begging andpleading that they had a better
connection with their parents,but their parents just won't
(16:32):
hear them, they won't listen tothem. They don't, they don't
want to understand they don'twant to, you know, deal with it.
And so that's really painful forthem. And I think about a life
changing moment, even in thelast maybe like for five years
for myself, was when I was ableto have a really difficult
(16:55):
conversation with my mom aboutsomething. And at first, she did
what, I think a human any humanbeing has a tendency to do,
wants to push back and cut itoff it No. And I kind of said,
No, we're going to talk aboutthis matters. And of course, I'm
(17:19):
older, I'm mature, I have abetter language, I can kind of
say, No, we're gonna talk like,I can kind of say that, but me
just being able to say, my sideof the story, and heard not go
into defensiveness and just hearthat. And even not that she had
(17:46):
a part to own necessarily, butthere was like a more of that I
can hear like, I'm going tostand and hear what you're
seeing as uncomfortable as itmakes me. Somehow, and I don't
that moment for me, and I don'teven think I've talked to her
about this shifted so manythings, because I felt like I
(18:10):
could actually finally move on.
Now, it was not her job to helpme move on. But it certainly
helped. Oh, absolutely, I wouldhave had to find a different way
to do that. That would have notbeen as almost instant. If you
could say,
Tracy (18:33):
you know, if not even therapeutic right? It will set
you back instead of forwardcould
Jennifer Maneely (18:39):
have I mean, there's so many ways that could
have been but her being groundedin herself enough in that
moment, to just hear what myexperience was like whether it
was true or not, is irrelevant.
But what my experience of thesituation was, and my
perceptions of the situation.
(19:05):
That's all I just wanted peopleto hear is that this is what I
experienced. And so when I thinkabout my audience, and how
important it is, how can we bevery clear on ourselves, to not
(19:25):
put a wall a metaphorical wallbetween me and what someone else
is saying? Just because it'seither true or not true? It's
their perception is of thetruth. We can sift out the real
truth later. But they have to beable to state their perceptions
of the truth in order to get tothe truth.
Tracy (19:44):
It's like Be quiet. Be quiet. Be quiet is what I've
learned to speak quiet. Bequiet, be quiet, Tracy. Even if
it doesn't seem rational, itdoesn't seem logical, but that's
not the way it really is, youknow, but being quiet Yeah,
empathetic. Just a nod. Yeah.
Wow, what was that? Like foryou? Yeah. Even it opens the
(20:06):
door for them to go, Oh, they'rehearing me and go deeper,
deeper. Tell me more about that.
What? What was that, like whenyou thought that? And it's like
when you can go deeper and havethose really good listening ears
that they're like, talkingthemselves through what's truth?
(20:32):
And what's this place is becausechildren and even adults
disconnect, right? And so theirreality does become really
skewed, but just allowing themto talk it through in everyday
life, right, you know, and thenwe can talk it through and we
(20:52):
feel heard no matter what thesituation traumatic or not, it
helps us stay grounded. And inthe moment in the truth. And
teaching young people to stay intruth is really is my core is at
night. Because then they knowreality. Is that really what
(21:12):
happened? But I don't have tosay it even like that. It's just
the nods. It's just the Wow. Andthen like, well, well, wait a
minute, let me you know, whenthey start, yeah. And as they
begin to process, becausethey've packed it in so deep,
and you can hear some that theirstories are so deep, that when
(21:34):
they start pulling it out, well,she's not shutting me down,
dang, I'm gonna go further. Youknow, it just allows for those
things that need to be uprootedand broken up. You know that
portions? Wow, you you get it?
That's what you get healing andit doesn't happen in one
(21:54):
session? No, you start sessiontwo. And you're like telling me
last week you were data data?
And then they're like, Whoa, shedidn't forget? No, no. Hearing
people is the I think with thebest skills that whether you're
in a workplace or a therapeuticsession, or family in the den,
(22:18):
you know, listening is a skillthat is far underrated in
society, they were everybody'sgot a voice talking on social
media, you know, but when you'rein one on one relationship with
somebody, you're just saying,Wow, I never knew you went
through all that. And and whenwe start talking about family,
(22:42):
and I'll be the first to say,I've got stuff in my family. And
so you know, allowing somebodyto say I was at a really bad
place in my life. And this iswhat I did. Wow. I didn't know.
Yeah, you don't have to haveeloquent words or language. It's
(23:04):
just having the empathy and theheart connection that can bring
healing in. I know, I'm not, youknow, yes, I've got degrees. But
I submit that a heart connectionbrings greater healing any day
that any all the letters in theworld you can have after your
name, right? And just whatyou're doing in your in your
(23:25):
podcast.
Jennifer Maneely (23:27):
Yeah. Well, and you know, a lot of people
when I, whenever I put, I starttalking about boundaries, I
think a lot of peopleimmediately make this assumption
or this visualization, thatthey're like, oh, I have to put
a wall between me and anotherperson. Right? And like, they're
like, Oh, that's souncomfortable. And I'm like, you
(23:47):
know, listen, when I talk aboutcreating like the unbreakable
boundaries, I am talking abouthow do I be very clear in
myself, to remain in connectionwith another person. Right,
because I think that's soimportant. It's not actually
it's about tearing the wallsdown, but also being mindful of
(24:11):
where we're sacrificingourselves. And let's not do
that, right, let's not sacrificeourselves. But if you're going
to have a relationship with aperson that is doing a lot of
things that puts you at risk oras dangerous or whatever, let's
talk about how you can stay outof that, but also how you're
going to stay in a relationshipwith that person. And that comes
(24:33):
with a lot of clarity and backto what you're saying about
really being heard andlistening. Really listening,
what it takes is that competenceto sit and not take things
personally that there
Tracy (24:50):
you go, and you know, I'm not going to punish you because
you have this view or thisthought or you handled your
situation differently than waythen I think you should are the
way that I would Should I say itthat way? Right? No, we don't
have to agree. people disagreeall the time. But it's in that
place of honoring and notdisrespecting, because this was
(25:15):
the path I went down. But God, Irealized it was the wrong. I
want to get back to here, butpeople just push me further
apart. Because that moment,you're real. And you say, you
know, that thing that they know,but you know, we needed to talk
about it, and just have thosehugs in that, you know, gosh,
(25:35):
I'm so sorry, I did not listenvery well. And that you felt the
need to do that. And to validateand honor people. I think our
society has really lost sight ofa lot of that good stuff, you
know, of honor, of
Jennifer Maneely (25:50):
honor. And going beyond of like, when we
talk about listening, it's notalways necessarily, what are
they saying? Versus what arethey really saying, right, and
really hearing them and whatthey're really saying, like,
asking questions to spark aconversation to get a clear idea
(26:12):
of where they're getting thisinformation. And why did they
perceive it in that way? So, youknow, I guess, I, there was so
many things that I did not know,were happening when I was
growing up. Because, you know,as parents and kids, there's
just this, we're not going toshare everything with the kids
(26:33):
that's happening. We're justnot, you shouldn't do that.
Tracy (26:37):
You need to share everything with a kid. That's
right. Right, it but it doesn't
Jennifer Maneely (26:41):
mean that the kid isn't developing a
perception around what'shappening with the information
that they're presented with,
Tracy (26:48):
go there, we should go.
But you need to do it on ahealthy level, that's not going
to cause fear and produce moreanxiety. But if a child is
perceiving that someone's usingand there's something off in
your home, I think a platformwhere you can say, you know, you
may have overheard somethinglast night? Yeah. What what was
(27:10):
going through your head, andexplaining and giving enough
explanation on a child levelthat we're going through
something, but what are yourquestions, that gives them their
voice, and a same time you'regetting to say, Man, I really
messed up last spring, and itprobably didn't feel so good in
(27:31):
our home. But I just think it'sI think parents indulge too
much. And they don't know,they're either doing nothing or
saying nothing. Or they're goingover the top and telling the
child everything. And you don'thave to do that. Yeah. Just want
to know, did you know that I wasin the other ring. Did you know
I knew so. And so. Wow. Whatwere you thinking? Just let them
(27:57):
say it? Yeah. Tell them whatreally was going on. Just hear
what they got to say. andvalidate that. I didn't mean for
all that to happen.
Jennifer Maneely (28:08):
Yeah, I was.
This brings up an interestingstory. So I was I was probably
five years old. You know, Idon't remember everything when
I'm five. But this stuck out tome, right. And my mom and I have
since talked about this. And weI kind of laugh at it now. But I
remember a very specific day, inwhich my mom got very, very
upset what she was upset with. Ihave no idea. I do now because
(28:31):
we talked about it. But I'm atthe time. I'm five years old,
and all I know is my mom isscreaming into her pillow.
Right? That's the onlyinformation I have is screaming
into the pillow. Okay, now, myfive year old little kid brain
(28:52):
is sitting there looking at hergoing mom is really upset. What
have I done wrong? That's right.
Yeah. Right. So she must bereally mad at something. But she
does. She's so mad at me. Yeah,they India. She doesn't want
(29:13):
to talk about it because it's sobad. Now. What have I done
recently that would make herthat mad? Yeah, so now my five
little kid year old brain I'mthinking was it this was it that
was it. This Now eventually, youknow, I'm like, Okay, well,
she's as a five year old. I amnot asking my mom that screaming
into the pillow. What's wrong orasking her to because I don't
(29:39):
even she didn't even know I wasthere. She didn't know that I
this was part of my experience,even as an adult, right? We talk
about it later. She goes yeah,you know what? I used to do that
a lot when I got really mad atmy own mom
because she was saying Somethingthat was just so
Tracy (30:02):
that is giving me advice this overwhelming,
Jennifer Maneely (30:05):
right. And like, I think, you know, I think
my grandmother, at least towardsme, and in the relationship, my,
my grandmother loves me. But shewas very hard on my mom when it
came to me. And she said a lotof not really wonderful things
to my mom about me, but I didn'tknow any of that. I didn't know
that my mom would get angry andyell into her pillow. Because
(30:31):
she was upset with her mom,right? Like, because I only have
my relationship with mygrandmother, which was very
loving, very kind, verysupportive. But my mom had her
own relationship. And it wasvery different. And, but But my
point in saying that is mylittle kid brain took a
(30:54):
situation and made a whole lotof beliefs about that situation,
that it somehow had to do withme,
Tracy (31:01):
internalized.
Jennifer Maneely (31:03):
And I grew up with that. And now Now I'm in
recovery. And years and yearslater, I think about those
things. And I get to ask my momabout her experience. And now
I'm in a situation where it'slike, man, all of these really
like deep beliefs are stillimpacting my journey that I
(31:27):
created in my mom is notresponsible for that piece of
things. Because she doesn't knowhow I internalized situations
that had nothing to do with her.
You see,
Tracy (31:43):
so having that conversation, just what you said
was when humor that time, and Iwant to process this, stay with
me and mom, you know, when youthink of adults to their parent,
this is what I remember. And aparent being able to say, Well,
(32:03):
what did you need at thatmoment? What did you need? What
at that little girl? And amoment that mom says, Well, let
me give that now. Or the dadsays, let me give that now. It
just allows for forgiveness tocome in and healing to come
whatever it was that that childneeded. Yeah. changes the
(32:23):
perception of everything. Youmean, you really felt that way?
Yeah, and that little girlsuddenly goes from five all of a
sudden, to like eight or 10, youknow, and moving ahead. And the
next memory that really settledin memories, I think are truly
Jen. When I think of grief andloss, they're the I won't say
(32:47):
that pillar, I'll say they'rethe blanket of healing and hope.
Because you know, when you haveat least one good memory that
you can pull out, it's thatamazing fuzzy blanket that we
all have, you know, sitting onthe couch, or, you know, across
the bed that we can just put on.
And good memories are what bringhope into situations. Well, what
(33:09):
I hoped for, which is what isneeded. If I had had this, that
this could have been theoutcome. So you've got those
ideas of I need, you know,child, or adult needing a voice
and safe and secure andunconditional positive regard.
(33:29):
But also knowing and being ableto have that person that they
can have a dialogue with thatallows for them to say what was
needed. And even in this day,what do you need? How can I help
you? And it just brings them outand up into the from the there
to the here in the now. And it'san it's beautiful stories. It's
(33:54):
a beautiful story.
Jennifer Maneely (33:58):
And I because I'm thinking about like a lot of
times, you know, the people thatare deep into substance abuse,
and they're trying to have theserelationships with the the
parents that don't understandthey get into these arguments
all the time, right? You weresuch a shitty mom or shitty dad
or whatever you were so mean.
And but imagine, imaginechanging the conversation that
(34:25):
says you know what, you'reright. I may have not been the
best parent that you needed atthat moment. Right? Like, and I
if I could do somethingdifferent, I totally would but I
cannot change the past. The onlything that I can do to support
you and help you is is how arewe going to move forward? That's
(34:47):
right. And it's like I amwilling because this was a
pivotal moment even for my momwhen I was a set. This is right
before I got it like the daybefore I got into rehab she She
caught, everything caught up tome in this day, right? And I'm
sitting there kind of prettyhigh not to have completely
(35:08):
hearing everything that she'ssaying to me in this in this
moment that I'm like, caught.
Yeah, um, and she goes, Listen,you know, we, I may not have
been the best mom, I, I havetake responsibility for some
things. And when you're ready towork through those things I am
(35:31):
here, we will work through them.
But I am not going to continueto allow, you know, these kinds
of things into my life, I cannothave you in my life, if you're
acting in this way, but I am sohappy to it. She didn't say this
is not verbatim. This is ageneralization. But the general
(35:53):
idea was, I will work on mystuff as a parent, if you're
willing to work on your stuff,and figure your shit out. But
this is not Yeah. You're usingand your behavior and all of
this stuff right now, that's noton me.
Tracy (36:15):
We all have choices, these this choice that you're
making, but in every choice,there's this way it can bring us
together if we're willing tohave some tough conversation.
And I'm not just saying words tobe saying words, when you you
know, somebody loves you, andyou love them. When you can have
(36:35):
you really weren't. You know, orI was a really badass kid.
Jennifer Maneely (36:42):
Right. But I was doing what
Tracy (36:45):
I could manage. And I know that I was a 16 year old
mom, I get I know, I was notthere. But man. Fast forward to
my mid 50s, I have garnered alot of wisdom and a lot of tools
and skills that make me have anability in an even greater way
(37:08):
to go back and say, right, youneed to have a conversation.
Yeah, that's where the memorypart comes in. I remember one
time, I probably hurt you withthings I said, or what had
around you. You know, yeah, Ithink I think kids need to hear
that. So when you were sayingthat while ago, about the child
(37:31):
saying, you know, something thathappened? I think those are
conversations that are veryimportant in healing, is
sometimes children just want toknow, because parents, we I
think children put their parentsup here and that they never made
mistakes, when in fact, Ireally, I developed parenting
(37:52):
skills from my parents, whichwere really bad because it was
all about addiction, you know,but I ran out of the house and
said, I don't want to watch Idon't want to be a part of this.
And now but you know, again,fast forwarding ahead, I've been
able to go back and say, even tomy own mom, now my father is
dead, but to say this happened,or that happened and what really
(38:17):
happened because I was just alittle girl, and I probably got
it all wrong. Yeah. And I thinkthat is a really important step.
And even this week, I wasworking with some teen moms,
because that's one of the thingsthat is truly a passion of mine,
because I wasn't young mom, Jenis I gave them all an oyster
(38:37):
shell with a pearl glued to it.
And I said, Do you know where apearl came from, and you're
like, what you know. But pearlsare formed from the dirt. And
you know, and I said to them,and I say this, and I'm not
trying to just have a lot offluff. But the foundation of
what child and family has beenbuilt out. It's been built out
(38:59):
of the dirt, those things thatnobody else wants to talk about
that elephant in the room thatyou know, nobody else would talk
about my father, there was, youknow, the drugs, the alcohol, I
was molested all of these thingsnobody wants to talk about. And
even in my teenage years, Ireally didn't understand that.
(39:20):
But in this day, I was able toput a layer on there to preserve
it as my story and in to help somany other people see that
they're not alone in the journeyand that's where the security
and the connection comes from.
You are not alone. And the veryfoundation of what Child and
(39:44):
Family The dirt is what he'sused to build the foundation of
the work we do in trauma, griefand loss because there's
transparency i i used to feel somuch shame. And now it's like
you If it helps this child, orit helps this mother or it helps
this mother and father, and howthey parent now, I don't, I
(40:08):
don't really care anymore, Idon't care how I'm perceived to
the outer world, I just wantthem to say, these are tools
that might be good and maybebetter in your toolbox and serve
you well, if you really want toconnect to your son or your
daughter, we have to be willingto learn and to grow and have
new ways to, to love and love.
Well, yeah,
Jennifer Maneely (40:31):
yeah. And, you know, it's this is this is kind
of a little bit of my belief isis that all of these core
principles, connection, love,security, safety, all of that
stuff that is at the core, itnever changes in the human, come
on what we need, right? It maystart presenting differently, we
(40:53):
may get better at hiding andpretending like it doesn't
exist, or like, it doesn'tbother us. But at the core of
it, we need this. And I, youknow, going back to something
very important that you said ishaving the tough conversations
and being present to the toughconversations, right? This is a
(41:15):
lot of when I because a lot ofpeople in this community, they
talk about tough love, andthey're like, Oh, I, I don't
think tough love is reallyworks. And it really, you know,
I it didn't feel good. And I sayI said tough love is not about
being tough on them. It's abouthaving or making decisions that
(41:36):
are tough to do. And it's aboutalso having those tough
conversations, and being verygrounded and present to that.
Tracy (41:45):
And if I might can add to that, maybe, because I've had to
practice this my own. So theremight be things that start to
come up inside of me. And italmost begins to feel that
between the two of you, whoeverit is, when you're having that
conversation, that tough lovemoment and say, you know, I
(42:06):
don't agree with you, we reallydo need to say in this, but I'm
a little overwhelmed, right?
This, can we take five and comeback? Because this is not going
to go well. If we you know, ifyou know that you aren't hearing
them, you're you know thatthere's either on misperceiving
what they're saving onmisunderstanding, or either they
(42:26):
are really way off. It's stillwhatever I think being sold out
as a parent being sold out asthe child and saying I'm gonna
I'm willing to preserve ourlove. If we can keep that love
connection. You know, I got tobreak from this for a minute,
(42:48):
right? Yeah. But guy out here,you this is so important to you.
And I want you know, I love you.
But let's give it a few. Butlet's come right back. And given
it an appointed time, makingspace and a time specifically
for that, I think is is a toolthat every parent should have in
(43:08):
their toolbox, whether they'rearguing about the lunch box, or
they're arguing about somethingthat the kid heard the night
before the day before, andhaving regular conversations, no
matter what, don't let thembuild up for years. Yeah, have a
have a meal every night withyour kids, or as often as you
(43:30):
can, I'm sorry, I like you know,fast food meal every now and
then again, too. But there isno, there is no nothing that can
take the place of connection.
Jennifer Maneely (43:43):
And I say well, and I think culturally to
a certain extent we've lost andI want to get off on a tangent.
So I'm gonna say this and moveon, move on. But but because
like, you know, before all ofthe technology that really
distracted us and somehow madeour lives very efficient, but
(44:04):
also limits the actual realconversations that we're having
the, you know, we used to have.
This is not like, oh, the olddays kind of conversation, but
it's real, when we really usedto talk to each other because
that's what we had, right? Weused to share wisdom, because
we'd sit around at the dinnertable, no TV, no distractions.
(44:28):
All we had was like this iswhere our attention span has
greatly diminished is becauseall of the social media and this
isn't
Tracy (44:44):
a gaming
Jennifer Maneely (44:45):
TV. There's always let's be, we're not. This
isn't one of those like, oh, wecan't have this stuff, but it's
like we can and being mindful ofwhere also our human needs need
to also be met. And it's, we'vebeen talking a lot about that
connection, Social Media TV, allthe stuff are creating what I
(45:09):
like to think of as like falseconnections. So like Facebook,
Instagram, they're quoteunquote, connecting you but it's
not on a human need level. It'sjust in a technology way, not in
a heart like It's like more of aleft brain, not more of the
heart center way. So how are weconnecting at a real level
(45:33):
through the heart, and it'sthrough the conversations, the
real conversations, when you'reconnecting with someone else at
a heart level, not in in aFacebook or a message or a text
or whatever,
Tracy (45:49):
or move aiming. And I will tell you what I say to my
parents all the time, because Ido parenting classes often is,
if that is a big thing for yourfamily gaming, or Netflix or a
ballgame, whatever. If you'renot connected at the end of it.
(46:12):
Your your children don't they'renot going to trust me. If you're
doing this, you've got to moveand have the greatest, you're
gonna have the Waltons on if youremember who the Waltons are,
you can have the Waltons on, butif you're doing this, right,
right, what you need to do issay there's there's no
technology right now. Oh mygosh, it talk about it? Did you
(46:36):
see you know, John boy, or youknow, or maybe you can game
together. But it's purposeful,mindful, I love that you use the
word mindful and it's not when Isay mindful, I'm not talking to
fluky hooky, whatever mindful,I'm saying, I'm purposeful in
this because I want me you andif you know, whoever, you know,
(46:58):
the significant other is in thatpart of it, you need to be
connected. If it's my husbandsitting watching, you know, a
show on Netflix, or if it's as afamily, the whole goal of doing
it is not just that you're allsitting in the same room, right?
To be what you just saidconnection and relationship.
(47:20):
And, you know, I had a family, afamily class recently, and
someone said, so what is love?
And I don't know you everyonecan define it differently. But I
believe whether we're havingconversations right here, in
this podcast, or there'ssomebody in China or Iran,
wherever I believe it's Love issomething that is universal. And
(47:42):
we all want it. And it affectsaffection, the core word of
affection is effect. And we areeither affecting someone in a
positive and connected way orwe're emptying them. Yeah, my
heart as a daughter, a mother, agrandmother, an advocate for
(48:03):
other families is man, I want toconnect there to be an affection
that feels buckets. At the endof the day, I want to do more
feeling than I do MTN and I amhuman, I have temper. I have
feelings and emotions that needto be validated. And I just
(48:27):
think it's learning new tools ofhow to communicate and connect
that can change the dynamic offamily. And I just want to say
that I love what you're doing inthat. Putting the boundaries in
there is what makes all thedifference. Yeah, they are
(48:47):
unbreakable. I'm not going topunish you if you don't think
like me.
Jennifer Maneely (48:53):
Right? Well, it's not Yeah. God love you.
Tracy (48:57):
Because, you know, you crossed my boundary. But I might
need to say that's what that'snot making me feel loved in it.
Jennifer Maneely (49:05):
Right. And I crossed my own. Like, there's
times where, you know, I sayunbreakable boundaries. And
then, you know, people willalways be like, Oh, but what
about this? And what about that,and then I think I have to be
this guru. And people can'tever, like do something that I
don't like, right? But it's moreof like, okay, when something
happens, I'm going to take astep back. I'm going to be
(49:29):
aware, like, what was it that Ididn't like, and how can I
communicate with this person tosay, you know, this was not good
for me and be on like, honormyself every time so it doesn't
mean that someone isn't goingand I'm not like a hard person,
(49:51):
right? So I'm not going aroundand being mean and creating
distance between people becauseI think about boundaries. No,
it's more of like People knowexactly what I willing to accept
into my life and what I'm notwilling to accept, through a
loving and caring way when Icommunicate of like, yeah, man,
(50:11):
this, that's not going to be myrole. There's just certain
people, I love them. I'm notgoing to hang out with them.
Yeah, because it's not, it's,it's their behaviors impact my
life too much. Sure, when thosebehaviors change. And I don't
feel uncomfortable anymore orunsafe, that person is 100%
(50:35):
allowed back into my life, Idon't care who that person is.
That person is allowed back intomy life, when the behaviors that
are making me feel uncomfortableand unsafe, are no longer
present. Everyone has a right tochange. Sure. And we can have
the difficult conversations, ifthey've hurt me in some way. If
they've lied, if they've donewhatever is like, look, this is
(50:57):
my experience. This is where Idon't trust you. This is where
this is why I don't you know,but you can earn it. Right?
Everyone has the right to earnit back. That's good stuff.
That's how that's how I see it.
And one more thing, I just wantto touch on this just a little
bit. And then I really want totalk about this camp that you
have going on. But what we'vebeen talking about is this
(51:21):
connection. And what does itlook like when we disconnect? So
when we're talking about havingthe tough conversations? And
when you were saying you needto? Sometimes you may need to
take a pause. And it's at thatpoint in which it's like how do
(51:43):
you know when you need to takethat pause? Well, am I getting
ready to react to a situation?
Am I getting ready to disconnectfrom this person? Do I feel
disconnected? Maybe that's thetime to take that pause and say
no, I'm gonna stay inconnection. But I'm feeling
(52:06):
disconnected. I'm going to goconnect with myself real quick.
And then I'm going to come back.
Tracy (52:10):
And I think that's just really how you say it. I had a
kid asked that recently. Well, Idon't really know how to do
that. It is a skill, like ridinga bike, the more you do it, and
we teach children, and that'swhat the heart of the camp is
giving new tools to parents andchildren. And when you can
honestly I remember saying to akid one day, he's like, I don't
(52:32):
think I'm brave enough to saythat to my mom. Think of
yourself as brave. And he saysWell, no. And I'm like, Well,
Jennifer Maneely (52:42):
you aren't brave. Yeah, you can
Tracy (52:45):
never ever be brave until that thing you're afraid of you
just do it. Yeah. But mom, Ireally need to talk to you. But
I can't right now. And it'sokay. As long as you know, in
teaching children to, you know,it's something I feel like we've
lost a long ways down the roadwas disrespect, is respect, that
(53:10):
this respect is the place thatwe all from, you know, from
societal, what is expected inthe norm is rage and yelling,
and, you know, add me Me, me, meme what I need. But we can say
the reason if you can set it upin the contact that the reason
(53:31):
that I'm here is because Ireally do want to hear you. But
I think it's important for youto hear me too. And let's go
ahead and set it up that, youknow, if you're, you know, your
voice gets really high. Or minegets really hot, we might you
might need to remind me, we needto take five
Jennifer Maneely (53:51):
Yeah. So you're you're saying set the
conditions and create the spaceintentionally. When wonderfully,
yes, mindfully. And we're, we'regoing to have this, but here are
some of the guidelines thatwe're going to stick to when
this happens. This is how we'regoing to handle it when this
(54:12):
happens. This is how we're gonnahandle it. When you get to a
certain point of upsetness.
Where, you know, like, we'regonna take a break, we're good.
Yeah. So it's like, how do weintentionally and mindfully
create the space? Instead ofjust, you know,
Tracy (54:31):
when we know we've got those big things that and I
don't like using the term toooften, so that, but it's so
true. The elephant in the room,when there are things that you
know, have gone on for way toolong and no one's address them.
I believe as parents, it's ourresponsibility to initiate that.
Jennifer Maneely (54:53):
Yeah. I call those sometimes depending on
who's in front of me. It's theelephant in the room, or what
are the Missing conversationsthat we're not having right?
What's the missing conversationthat we need to have? Right?
What's that
Tracy (55:08):
thing that you've always you have felt a need to talk
about and you want to talkabout? Or just understand what
is it you need to understandabout me and me?
Jennifer Maneely (55:19):
Yeah, it's good stuff. That's, you know,
we've talked a lot about, we'vehinted at, like, tools and
resources. And you you actuallyfor kids, I'm gonna let you talk
about it. But you have thenarrow way ranch.
Tracy (55:39):
We have used the narrow way ranch we I will say, last
year, we outgrew we had so manypeople come that we now it was a
rather large farm. But becauseof parking and the need for
space, we're looking forsomething a little bigger this
Jennifer Maneely (55:57):
year, right?
All Seasons green all seasons,
Tracy (56:01):
and we decided we rebranded instead of saying all
seasons heal, instead of sayingall seasons grief camp, it's an
all seasons healing heart. Yes,I love it. And so throughout all
seasons, because stuff continuesto come up, you've got
anniversaries, you've gotbirthdays, you've got holidays,
(56:23):
where the grief will resurface.
And I think a lot of people, Iremember being someone saying to
me, there's the grief lady inthe grocery store. My
granddaughter, and I'm like,it's kind of an honor that the
grief, somebody's got to do andhelp people have the tools they
need. Grief is in everything,not just death, just loss of
(56:46):
relationships, loss of seasons,you know, you know, we lose
time. Yeah, we've lost time. Andthat is grief. You know, when
there's a parent and a child andwe've lost time together. That's
loss, yes, grief, and it makesyou angry, it makes you go, I
could have done this differentor I could have done that
(57:08):
different. I'm really sad aboutall those stages of grief. And
it really just stood out to meprobably about two years into
being in private practice, thatfamilies need a voice. They need
to be able to come together in aday or a weekend. And we started
out doing weekends. And we'rehoping to grow it into a
(57:30):
different way. And every year wewere understanding more what
families need in that process ofgrief and loss, but it's a day
of hope. You know, what is itthat you need? What do you hope
will happen? And a lot of it canbe when there's adults there
with parents is it's it'sconnection. Yeah, it's awesome.
(57:53):
Both together, learning newskill, found newfound skills
together, but doing some funstuff together, like horseback
riding, archery, music and artshaving a meal together, learning
about how you cultivaterelationship when there has been
a hiccup in the road. Yeah, andso it's my favorite thing that I
(58:17):
do. And I could say probablyanother hour apart about all
seasons healing heart, but it isabsolutely a beautiful day. Like
I said, we do the activities,but we share a meal together.
But at the end, we have abutterfly release, oh, every
participant gets a littleenvelope with their butterflies.
(58:39):
And when you see hundreds ofbutterflies go up at one time.
It's just you know, thebutterfly in itself is a symbol
of transformation. There's newlife and newfound hope coming.
It is a great day. Yeah, it is.
It's truly by far my favoritething we do.
Jennifer Maneely (59:01):
I think and I think that's so amazing. And,
and just especially touching onjust how important it is for
people to experience differentthings that bring them joy and
connection with themselves,connect them with nature. Get
them outside, right. And it goesall into that you know that
(59:25):
safety, security love. How dothey have a platform to feel
safe about opening up andcommunicating and a lot of
times, you know even this withmy art because of the nature of
it. People just feel very safeto just start talking because
all of a sudden they just feelconfident they feel brave. They
(59:49):
feel like empowered. And that'swhat you know all this is and
people can find that withinthemselves. So whether you know
they have a love for the arts.
They have a love for the UKHistory and stuff, the music,
the all of those days, it's soimportant for people to find
their thing that they can reallyhold on to. So that in the
darkest of the moments, theyhave something to lean on, they
(01:00:13):
know can bring them and balanceout that I think that
Tracy (01:00:20):
people get trapped in it, Jen, it trapped in the routine,
the monotony of the thing thatthey picked up that wasn't
healthy. And cognitivebehavioral standpoint, when you
remove something, and evenspiritually, you want to replace
it with the opposite, somethingreally, really good and healthy.
(01:00:42):
And I don't think there's anysubstitute for nature and being
outdoors, whether it's trail oroff, whether it's bows and
arrows, it's our archery or it'shorseback, you know, showing
them you know, we don't justjump on the horse, we got to
have that relationship. Yeah, Iasked that horse to talk to him,
say something to him, brushthem, touch, you know, that's
(01:01:04):
five love languages of touch,and quality, time, and words of
affirmation. All those thingsare important. And that's really
what is a day is to launch allof that and then have follow up
the weeks to come. Some peopledo come from all over and they
need that Zoom. But there aremany families that are like, Oh,
(01:01:24):
for the few, first few weeks,because we do it in late spring,
it's the last Saturday in April.
And you know, we meet people,wherever they are, there are
some people that can give adonation, but those that can't,
it's okay. We want to bring hopeto as many people as we can, in
the Carolinas, you know.
Jennifer Maneely (01:01:43):
Absolutely.
Absolutely. And I think what youjust said is so important, even
for the parents out there,because I think we can, we can
all find ourselves a littlestuck in that darkness, right
and just like it because it'slike, if you have so many events
that are hitting you that youdon't know how you don't, you
haven't developed the tools tofigure out how to handle that I
think we can, we can findourselves really stuck. And I
(01:02:05):
think getting out. And this isone of the things that I work a
lot with parents that findthemselves in this is one of the
first things is like, first, wegot to get you back connected to
yourself to Nate, like get out,go fight, you know, get out of
this darkness that you're in.
And then we can make some somedifferent decisions.
Tracy (01:02:27):
So tell you what I liken it to, and then I know we need
to be wrapping things up. But Ihad a family member that was
incarcerated because ofaddictions. And you know, just
took him down a path. I justadore him. He's, he's my
brother, you know, and I don'teven mind me using that part
about his story. And he stayedwith us, and I'm like, I'm here
(01:02:49):
for you. And after beingincarcerated, though, when
you're in captivity, you're inbondage to this addiction. You
know, I remember him saying tome, um, I'm not really sure who
to connect to or what to connectmyself to. But when you can have
a space and a day that this iswhat we're doing. And you're
(01:03:11):
given them the right tools.
These are the right places, itmay not be with me, but here you
can go over here, this is whatyou have, when you go home to
connect, you are truly givingpeople those resources that they
need. Then the ground becauseyou come straight out. You're
like, oh, I don't know what todo. Who do I listen to? That's
what my heart is in all seasonshealing heart is that the road
(01:03:34):
not be too rocky. Yeah, we wantthere to be, you know, this is
safe. This is good. This is goodfor you. But it's going to be
good if you got kids too. Thisis what you could be doing
instead of this. So
Jennifer Maneely (01:03:51):
yeah, wow.
This has been such a greatconversation. I'm so grateful
one to get to a chance toreconnect with you and to just
continue the the greatconversation we were having.
This is one of the reasons why Iwas like, when we kept talking,
I said, Oh, man, we gotta likerecord this conversation.
Because it's so powerful, right?
(01:04:11):
Like
Tracy (01:04:11):
me, people like us too often that have the same heart.
Jennifer Maneely (01:04:16):
Right? But it's also like, oh, man, we just
this is the these are theconversations, where it's like,
we may not always have aperfectly ribbond up bow tied up
solution to every problem. Butit's like, here we are, we're
just going to keep talking aboutit. We're going to talk about
(01:04:38):
some of the tools that a personcan use when they find
themselves in a place that thereisn't a clean cut solution to a
big problem, right? Okay.
There's not a clean cutsolution, and yet you're still
faced with the problem. What doyou do? And this, these are the
conversations it's like okay,well, these are the tools to
help you I manage yourself totalk about what do you need the
(01:05:01):
safety, security love, it's allthe same. Whether you're that
five year old kid, or whetheryou're the 60 7080 year old mom,
grandmother or whatever, it'sall the same.
Tracy (01:05:15):
Me the words I need are your magic wands. Yes, this is
what I feel I need. And thenthis passing that to that person
in front of you and saying, sowhat is it you feel you need? So
it's though what we need, fromwhat I need to what we need. And
then it's from there when youpurpose full mindful that our
(01:05:39):
goal is to love well, toconnect. It can't be anything
but a win win and healing in thejourney.
Jennifer Maneely (01:05:47):
Yeah, absolutely. Well, thank you
again, so much. Thank you. Andthank you for listening to this
podcast. If you want to listento more or find more information
out about this podcast and moreof what I do to help families
you can go check out my page atunbreakable boundaries
podcast.com It's full of othergreat podcasts just like this
one, full of other greatresources. Please remember to
(01:06:10):
share this podcast with othersyou never know who may need to
hear this people are oftenhiding their battles in this
arena. And sharing is a greatway to provide this valuable
resource to a person. You maynot even know who needs it. And
don't forget, there is alwayshope, even when things seem the
most hopeless.
Tracy (01:06:31):
That's good. Thank you
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