Episode Transcript
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Jen (00:00):
Welcome back to the
unbreakable boundaries podcast
with your host myself, JenniferManeely. In today's episode,
it's a, it's a little bit of aninteresting take, because a lot
of times, I'm talking a lotabout substance abuse. And it's
a very, like, all or nothing,kind of, I guess, feel that
we're in of like, you just kindof stopped doing everything. And
(00:24):
that's not always for everyone.
I think moderation for a lot ofpeople is really important. And
so this is why I'm reallyexcited for my next guest, her
name is Caroline Hoch, I'm goingto hope that I said that right?
You can be hokey, thank you, youcan totally correct me if I'm
wrong, we go with a lot ofimperfections on this podcast.
So thank you for for correctingthat. But she works with, like
(00:48):
type a high performing women,they drink more than they tend
to sometimes it it's notnecessarily a drinking problem.
But it's, they have like aproblem using things as crutch.
And I think, for a lot of us inthis kind of world and the
(01:09):
deeper substance abuse, even ifwe're not the ones dealing with
the substance abuse, we can findourselves using things as
crutches, ourselves. And I justlove to hear this perspective
that you have Caroline on, whatdoes it mean to start creating,
like a healthy relationship withsome of these vices that we turn
(01:30):
to, in anxiety, stress chaotictimes in our lives. So thank you
for coming on.
Caroline (01:38):
Thank you so much for
having me. I appreciate it. And
I think that, you know, when youas you were doing your intro,
we're thinking about the blackand white thinking that we have.
It's like, we either have aproblem, or we don't have a
problem. And I work with andmost of life is not like that.
Correct? Yeah. Right. There's ahuge gray area. And I love being
(02:04):
in the position of being able tohelp the people that are in this
gray area. And really increasingawareness of there is some there
are resources for you. Becauselike everybody knows about a and
rehab and like the abstinenceonly models, we all have good
awareness of that. There's verylow awareness of I can get some
(02:25):
support when I'm finding myselflike, I just got this, like my
inner wisdom is kind of saying,and there's something sort of
there's something up here. Idon't like this. Yeah, but it's
like it's a bridge too far to gocheck myself into rehab. Right?
That's not right, either.
Jen (02:40):
Well, if so I think about
it, even for me, because
obviously, I think if you'vebeen listening to any of this
podcast forever, for any thing,you know, that like I'm in
recovery, so it's a very blackor white thing when it comes
around to substances. Butsometimes, like where I fall
short in my life, is throughother vices that I've turned to
(03:02):
in order to cope with somethings like that. So for me,
it's like, I'm a big sugar, Ilove my tasty pastries. I've
gone off the deep end, in myrelationship with basically
food. In general, I love food,and that causes some, some
(03:23):
detrimental things in my life,including, you know, gaining
weight not feeling great notbeing as sharp. You know, it
does have its physical problemsas well as the spiritual. So I
think about that, but it's like,I'm gonna be honest with you.
I'm not gonna go to rehab. OverYeah. Oh. And I wouldn't even
classify it as because this isagain, a kind of like the, the
(03:47):
all or nothing black and white.
I don't even think of it as likean eating disorder. Right? I am
just there's times where Istruggle. And I think that's
kind of where you land in thatgray area of what's going on gin
which coping with
Caroline (04:02):
Right, right. Oh, I'm
so glad you brought this up. Not
that you're going through thatbut it's so. So common, so
common, I can totally relate. SoI, the people that I work with,
I find that it is over drinkingand over eating or over
shopping, or over scrolling orwhatever it is that overeating
(04:23):
behavior is generally a symptomof under feeling. Mm hmm. Being
unknown, willing, and frankly,it's not even unwilling but like
we don't even have the tools inour society today. We're not
taught how to feel our feelings.
In fact, we're very muchencouraged to squash them down.
Yeah, we're very much encouragedto is Oh, stop crying here's a
(04:44):
cupcake or you know, tough dayat work or have a drink, or
whatever it is, or you know,look at all the messaging on TV
or any any thing that you'rewatching. It's like, take this
by this you'll feel better.
Yeah.
Jen (05:00):
Well, at least for the
short term, and you even said
shopping, I don't know if anyoneelse can relate to this. But
Amazon has changed my life.
Maybe, maybe for the better,maybe for the worse, but there
are times where I will. I don'tneed anything at all. But I want
to have something to lookforward to. Even if it's like in
(05:23):
two days, and so I'll just orderneedless things. So that I can
be excited and get my dopaminehit. Right. And that Amazon
package calm
Caroline (05:36):
literally. Right? So,
right, absolutely. And I I'm,
I'm guessing that there'ssomething going on in that
moment, when you pick up yourphone, when you go to the left
of the computer or whatever.
It's like, I don't want to feelfill in the blank, or, or
restless or lonely, or whateverit is. Yeah, I'm gonna go and
it's not conscious. It's notnone of its conscious.
Jen (06:00):
Oh, no, it's it. None of it
is. And I feel like sometimes
for me, it can be a multitude ofthings. All right. It's like, do
I have enough things in my lifeto look forward to? And so am I
just trying to satisfy that needat that moment, right? Or it's,
you know, I'm just feelingreally down about things. And
(06:22):
I'd like to feel better. Andthis will make me feel better.
Caroline (06:27):
Right. Right. And hey,
I mean, it works in the short
term. It does. It totally does.
It totally does. And that'swhere it's like, we have to
start thinking about our like,art ourselves today, is, we are
where we are today because ofour choices yesterday, right?
And so when we think about it inthat context, even just a little
(06:48):
bit, like, I maybe I'm hungover,or maybe I'm feeling a little
groggy, or I've got some brainfog, because I ate too much,
many too many candies yesterday,or whatever it is, that is
because of the choices that Imade yesterday, because I didn't
feel like writing that email.
Because I didn't be like callingmy mother in law, whatever it
is. Right? Right. So that littleboost that we get from, whether
(07:13):
it be food or drugs, or alcohol,or shopping, or whatever it is,
helps us get over that hump. Andwhat I help people do is
realize, like, work on thathome, really, right? Like, I
don't go out and say we're gonnago feel our feelings because
Good lord. I would run screamingaway from me.
Jen (07:33):
Right? Yeah, yeah. Well,
yeah. I mean, if you said, Hey,
Jen, why don't you like feelyour feelings? Like, Well, I
think I do that in an exhaustivelevel. Sometimes I don't want to
feel my feelings.
Caroline (07:45):
Right, right. Right.
And, and what I have found sooften, though, and I know from
my personal experience, and wethink we are feeling our
feeling, but we're actuallyresisting our feelings. Yeah.
And that resistance right there,which is so good at the gym.
Right? Resistance bands, we wantthose we want like the heavier
weights, because maybe we canget some tone in our arms or
(08:06):
whatever it is. Those are allgood things at the gym, but we
have like, it's not a good thingwhen we are working with our
emotions, right that I'm feelingcrummy today. I'm feeling really
crabby. I do not want to feelcrappy, give me anything that I
can do. Tell me what I can do toit. So I can not feel crappy,
right? Just happened to me witha client. And it's sometimes
(08:26):
that's the right thing to do.
Sometimes the best thing to dois in particularly in this case,
it was like that pushing thatresistance again, I do not want
to go there was so severe forher that it was like the best
solution was like give yourselfpermission to feel crappy. Yeah.
(08:50):
Like hold space for that, likeyou would have loved one. Right?
don't require it to go away. AndAnd the irony is, it does go
away pretty quickly.
Jen (09:01):
When you stop resisting it,
right? Right. Right resistance
that almost makes us feel alllike the worst things. It's like
if you would actually just allowyourself to dive into what it is
that you're experiencing. Andreally dive deep. It will
probably go away a lot faster.
It's the resistance. I thinkthis is my this is the way that
(09:22):
I work in my own like feelingYeah, stuff of going stop
resisting because that'sprolonging the pain.
Caroline (09:32):
100% 100% Because it
can go on for days and days and
days. Meanwhile, we know thatemotion actually flows through
our system in about 90 seconds.
Jen (09:41):
Yes, yes. So I'm curious
what what kind of like got you
into focused on this foryourself as a as a business?
Caroline (09:50):
Yeah, it's my own
journey. My own journey.
Absolutely. I started drinkingwhen I was, you know, a teenager
and that was what everybody inmy social set did. It was a
good, I really loved that first,you know that dopamine hit that
rush, I loved the, the idea thatI presented as well. And I was I
(10:16):
mean, I was a straight Astudent, and I was a student
leader and all these kinds ofthings. And then I went on to a
career in corporate and did verywell there and all that kind of
stuff. And so I had the, like,type a high performer. Yeah, who
was also kind of this rebel whowould drink more than I
(10:39):
intended, I would call it I wasover served last night, you
know, right. And, and it was, itkind of it was that balance out
for me, was like, I do too muchof that. And I feel the pressure
from all that. And this is apressure release. This is my
release valve over here. Andeventually, I just realized, as
(11:04):
I got older, and kind of lookedaround and saw what my friends
are doing, I saw what colleagueswere doing all that stuff. I was
like, hmm, maybe there'ssomething off here. And then I
started noticing, I didn'treally feel great in the
morning, and didn't really lovethe I made bad food choices when
I was hungover. Or, you know,had Yeah, over served the night
(11:26):
before. And so I didn't likewaking up in the middle of the
night and kind of piecing thatlike, Oh, whatever. What
happened in that the end of thatshow last night? I don't totally
it's a little bit foggy there.
Or, you know, the next day whenone of the kids would say, oh,
remember when I told you that?
And I'm like, huh, are theyscrewing with me? Or the last
(11:49):
night?
Jen (11:51):
Right, you're like, Wait, I
don't remember that. But that I
may have a valid reason or, oryou're just trying to get away
with something. Right? I don'tknow that there are I don't
Caroline (12:01):
know. It was never
like major, but it's like, okay.
And so I again, like from theoutside looking in? No, nobody
ever said, hey, you need to,like tone it down, did it? That
was all my internal dialogue.
Right. And that's where I when Italk to my clients, it's like,
there's a difference between adrinking problem, quote,
(12:25):
unquote, and a problem with yourdrinking. And it right may sound
like I'm playing with wordshere. But I do feel like there
is there's a difference. It'slike, I knew it. I knew this was
something that, you know, waskind of just like, there was
that little whisper in the backof my head like, Hmm, there's
something something's up here.
Jen (12:48):
Right. And I don't think
that's a necessarily like a play
on words. I can totallyunderstand that. Because it's,
you know, for me, it was a very,it was very obvious, even on the
external viewpoint from otherpeople that like I had an issue.
There was a problem, it wasimpacting my whole life. Right?
(13:12):
And for you, it sounds like, itwas a whole lot more of the
intense internal struggle. Andon the external, everything was
fine. Like, externally, no one'slooking at you going, I really
think that she was overserved ona lot of nights. Right? Like,
like, it wasn't, it wasn'tsomething that was very obvious
(13:33):
to anyone else. But you werelike, I'm not entirely sure I'm
comfortable with how things aregoing in my life when it comes
to, you know, this sub, thedrinking or whatever it is. And
so, what was the moment where Imean, I'm sure there was a lot
(13:54):
of moments, but what was thelaw? A lot of moments, but what
was like kind of the pivotalmoment that just said, All
right, we're actually going tostart taking action and doing
something differently. Yeah.
Well, I
Caroline (14:09):
would say the moment
the moment that kicked off the,
you know, 100 moments was I wason a business trip. And it was
the end along you know, a coupleday meetings. Everybody was kind
of letting up steam that did it.
Tada. One thing led to another Iwas back in my hotel room at
(14:31):
about four o'clock in themorning. And and I, one of my
colleagues, my male colleagueshad been hitting on me.
Everything was fine, nothinghappened. But when I woke up the
next morning or whatever, I justthat shame like it hit me of
(14:52):
what could have happened. It IfI had another shot of tequila,
what you know, who knows? Andthat was my moment of, okay,
this, this little nudge has beenhitting me for a long time. That
could have been a disaster,right? And I just that was just,
(15:13):
I knew, right, like somebody hadbeen trying to help me out, then
my inner wisdom had been tryingto tell me something, and I was
like, wake the hell up.
Jen (15:28):
Right? And you've had 100
of these conversations already.
Now, it's actually time tostart, you know, doing things
that are a little bit healthier.
And so when you made thatdecision, how, like, what was
like that first kind of month?
(15:49):
What did it look like for you tokind of make that decision and
actually start working towardschanging that relationship that
you had with alcohol? What did
Caroline (15:58):
that look like? Yeah,
so I would say, for me, I
downloaded a book, I downloadloaded this naked mind. And I
read that cover to cover while Iwas on my flight back home. I,
like started kind of tuning into all the resources that are
available. So I started readingthe books and listening to the
(16:19):
books and listen to the podcastsand all these things. And then I
found a coach, and a coach whowas talking about stop over
drinking. And I was like, ding,ding, ding, that's for me, I
don't want to stop drinkingentirely. I just want to, like,
make sure that nothing like thatever, ever, ever, ever, ever
happens again. Right? And therewere lots of starts and stops,
(16:40):
there was a lot of morningswhere, you know, like, what? I
did it again, kind of thing. Butas with anything as with
learning anything, there's a bigdifference between that decision
moment that break through that,never going to do it again. And
like the transformation thatthose day in day out the unsexy
(17:07):
little consistent, this iswhat's going to happen, I'm
gonna pick myself back up, I'mgoing to keep going. Right,
because I knew my goal was to, Iwanted to, I want to not want
it. Right. That was my goal. Andso I certainly knew that I did
not want to turn to I didn'twant to use it as a crutch
anymore. I didn't like thatunderlying message of that I was
(17:33):
really telling myself that Icouldn't handle it. You know,
like when we reached like, Ican't handle it anymore. I'm
going to have a drink. And Ididn't like telling myself that
I didn't like reinforcing thatmessage. And so that, so that
first hit that that night when Iwas in London, and that was in
August of 2016. And that was mylast hangover. So there have
(17:56):
been a lot of starts and stopsalong the way. But there's never
been like, I haven't had ahangover since then.
Jen (18:03):
Right? Right. And it sounds
like because I think sometimes
even my perspective of things iswhen I start changing things,
and I commit to this, like,significant lifestyle shifts in
my life, because I've just hadenough and I get really excited
(18:25):
about it, I think that thingsare going to be like white
clouds, and it's going to be allfluffy and wonderful and nice.
And oftentimes, it's not as niceas what I would like to start
making those changes. It canfeel a little uncomfortable. It
(18:46):
can feel a little messy, it canfeel like you said there was
some starts and stops, I had tokind of like learn where was the
boundaries? Right? Like, whatwas I okay with and what was I
not okay with? Where is that? Isthat and how long would you say
that you stayed in that kind oflearning for yourself? What you
(19:09):
were okay with what you were notokay with?
Caroline (19:11):
Yeah. And I call that
the transformation. Okay. I call
that like, you know, there's theaha moment. There's that
decision, which I love how youuse that language because I kind
of sometimes I make fun of, I'mnot making fun of you. Like
sometimes I make fun of like,I'm decided to try keto. And I'm
like, Oh, that's a terribleidea. But there's a big
(19:35):
difference between that decisionand like living it. Right. And
that's where and I think thatthat is I think that we need to
talk about that a lot more ascoaches as practitioners in this
space because we Western peoplethat we people that live in in
Western culture, we're used tolike that immediate
gratification. Yeah, absolutely.
Huh. It's like what On the sameday now, yeah.
Jen (20:02):
Right. It's like, oh,
things didn't go, like I had
thought that they were gonna goand it doesn't feel as good as I
thought it was gonna feel. Sothis must not be the right
answer.
Caroline (20:10):
Right. Right. And that
is when I, actually, okay. I
love it when my clients get tothat point. Because to me, think
about it, your primitive brainwants you to stay the same. It
is very motivated to conserveenergy, and keep everything the
(20:31):
same. Right? Because automatedbehaviors do not require as much
energy.
Jen (20:38):
That's so true.
Caroline (20:39):
Right? So your
primitive brain when the when
that resistance shows up when Ididn't say if,
Jen (20:46):
when, when the resistance
shows up, when the resistance
Caroline (20:49):
shows up. I'm like,
Thank you, we're here. That
means your primitive brain isfreaking out. That means you're
doing something right. Thatmeans primitive brain is nervous
that this change may Oh, shit,she may be serious this time.
Like, isn't that a good thing?
Jen (21:06):
Yeah. And we're trained so
much in, like you were saying,
the Western culture that I'llget a little uncomfortable, how
are you gonna make yourself feelbetter? Mm hmm. You know, like,
Oh, God, stop what we're doing.
And you're in, you're so onabout, like, when I think about
myself of that primitive brain,whenever I go to, you know, make
(21:29):
a shift or make a change. That'snot so automatic. I freak out a
little bit, hopefully. And then,right. And then it's like, it's
like the vicious cycle of thefreakout. And this is why I
think what you do is so valuableis because left to my own
devices. When my primitive brainstarts freaking out, I'm gonna
(21:53):
probably double down on the visethat got me to that place,
whatever, if it's food, if it's,you know, Amazon, if it's
whatever it is, it's gonnadouble down left to my own
devices,
Caroline (22:07):
totally, because it's
not working. I might as well.
It's not working. I feelterrible, that this is hopeless.
I'm gonna go ahead and I mightas well why not? Why not? Right?
Absolutely. That's anotherneural pathway. Right? That's
another pattern.
Jen (22:24):
And this is why I value so
much about like, you know, what
you do? And in terms of like,the coaching part of things
where it's like, okay, you'refreaking out right now. Totally
normal. Like, let's, let's talkabout it. And let's come up with
some other ways, healthier waysthat you can find yourself. I
(22:47):
can't promise comfortability inthis moment, you're going to be
uncomfortable. It's okay. Let'swork through it.
Caroline (22:53):
Right. And not only
that, like, isn't that the
point? If you want to stay inyour comfort zone, everything
stays the same? Right? Right.
And that's not why that's notwhy anybody hires a coach.
That's not why anybody decidesto make changes, they want to
change. And it goes hand inhand, think of that bubble
around you when you're in yourcomfort zone. It's called a
comfort zone. Right? We step outof it, and we feel discomfort,
(23:16):
and then we're like, ah, that'sgone wrong. No, no, no, no, no,
that that's, that's going right.
Jen (23:24):
Right. And so when someone
like myself, and we've been
talking about kind of some of myvices, which is like, love
eating my doughnuts, and mytasty pastries, and, you know, I
go through recently, you know, Ihad someone close to me pass
(23:46):
away, and it's very sad. And myimmediate response to that is go
to the grocery store, and getchocolate wasted. Right, because
I can't get regular wasted, butI get, you know, chocolate
wasted, and I just eat all ofthose things. So, you know,
we've been kind of talking alittle bit about that. So
someone comes to you with that,what would be like one of the
(24:10):
first and I know that you've gotyou must have like hundreds of
different things to help peoplewith but what was What's your
like, go to strategy forsomeone? Well, I
Caroline (24:22):
think I mean, it's
going to be different upon where
they are, or what you justdescribed right there. I would
say what was going on for youright there. Like if we could go
back and rewind the clock. Whatwere you feeling? You say great,
Jen (24:37):
grief, really just really
sad. You know what's
Caroline (24:41):
underneath that?
Jen (24:47):
I think that when it comes
to grief and sorry if I start
getting emotional, but we'retalking about grief and it's
hard to not but something thatcomes up underneath all that is
How much I'm going to miss thatperson? Yeah, I'm never gonna
get to see them. And just animmense amount of, I guess, love
(25:14):
really? That's, that's thethat's the underlying emotion of
it. All right is how much Ireally care and love that
person. Yes.
Caroline (25:23):
Yes. Yeah. Amen. And I
want to honor that. I want to
honor that for you. Because thatis what grief is. Honestly, the
only reason we feel grief isbecause we have loved this
person, or pet or whatever it isjob even so much. Yeah. And
(25:44):
that's an honor. Yeah, that issomething that, you know that,
that feeling right there. Again,we're not taught how to manage
grief. Right? No, we're not.
We're told to push it away, andyou know, buck up and all that
stuff. But at its core, itreally is honor. It really is
loving that person that pet thatchild, whatever it is, whatever
(26:09):
we've lost, right? I'm
Jen (26:14):
sorry, I was gonna say, so
what I'm gathering is, and you
can correct me if I'm wrong, butalmost like in those moments,
allowing myself to honor exactlythose feelings that I'm
experiencing, instead of shovingthem away, because that person
(26:35):
that I'm grieving, you know,there's a reason and they
deserve. They deserve me to besad.
Caroline (26:43):
Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
Absolutely. Absolutely. And soit's first it's a step of, like,
normalizing what you're like theactions that we take, this is
why this is happening. Like whyI don't want to go there. And
it's normal to feel that way.
And, like there it when we viewit is this is honoring this
(27:09):
person, this is honoring thislove this relationship. That
takes a different frame of it.
It's also kind of a reminderthat your body was designed like
what, a lot of times what'sgoing on there is this fear that
I'm going to get stuck in it,that I will never be able to
climb myself out. So again, thatresistance, keep it away. Keep
it away, keep it away. Yeah. Andthat fear is driving it, I'm
(27:32):
going to be stuck here, I'mgoing to feel miserable forever.
And notice that, like, thebehaviors that we go to, in
order to not feel this thing areoften worse than feeling this
thing to begin with. Yes.
Jen (27:57):
Absolutely. Yeah,
absolutely. Because I don't
always I will like sometimestake a step back and look at the
behaviors and I'm exhibitingtrying to cope with the thing
that I'm coping with. And I feelso much worse about the
behaviors and the feelingsthemselves. Right.
Caroline (28:15):
And we layer on the
other that like, it's like,
yeah, I
Jen (28:19):
remember like, there were
times and I was trying to trick
myself and like, go really deepinto the the shame of it. Like I
would just, I would walk throughthe grocery store with my sacks
full of like candy or whatcoping whatever it was in my
(28:40):
bag, and just tell myself what ahorrible POS person that I was
that this was not healthy, andlike just really be hard on
myself in that moment. And I wasalmost like, well, if you shave
yourself hard enough. Maybe youcan feel bad enough to break
(29:02):
this like it did not work. Ijust want to say it only just
made me feel that much worse.
Caroline (29:10):
And then you want to
eat or drink or whatever to get
away from the Inner Mean Girl,right? Yes, yes. Yeah. Yeah, I
have yet to meet a person whothat drill sergeant savage talk
works on? I don't know, I havenot I have not met those people.
You look at the science, youlook at the research studies
that they've done and selfcompassion actually is more
(29:32):
compelling. Yes, you get betterresults. When you are nicer to
yourself, which people are like,wait a minute, we can't do that.
I'll end up sitting on the couchand eating chips or whatever all
day.
Jen (29:46):
Right? Well, and I think I
think it's so funny how the
brain works, right? Because Istarted trying to break down
like okay, well when do you wantto make you know, changes in
your life? What do you know?
Like what needs to To be inplace, and I think one of the
common answers and somethinglike even my mom and I talked
about because she's a, she's acoach as well. And she's like,
(30:06):
well usually change comes withsome sort of dissatisfaction,
right? Like, in order for thechange to happen, you have to be
dissatisfied and want to makethe change. Sometimes my brain
confuses dissatisfaction andshame, right, like, so it's
like, oh, if I can just getmyself really, quote unquote,
dissatisfied and shame myselfreally hard, then I will want to
(30:31):
make changes, right. And this iswhy I think, again, this is what
happens when I'm left to my owndevices. Awareness. So I just
want to reiterate that this iswhat happens when I've left my
own devices. And I don't havesomeone else that's in my life,
(30:52):
like a coach that I can kind ofgo that go down those roads, and
they can help support andreframe some of those things for
me, right. And this is why Ithink, coach, the coaching
world, and again, you know, whatyou do is so valuable if someone
(31:12):
is struggling with somethinglike this is because I can't, I
can't do this on my own. Like,that's just the bottom line, I
have figured that out, I did notget clean. By myself. I have a
huge support network for myself,any change that I've ever made,
in a sustainable way has beenbecause I've I've reached out
(31:37):
and sought help through someonelike yourself for various, you
know, reasons, and then theywere able to help me,
you know, work through that.
Caroline (31:50):
Yeah. So training
wheels, right?
Jen (31:52):
Absolutely. Absolutely.
Caroline (31:55):
They're there for a
reason.
Jen (31:57):
They are there for a
reason. And so what would you
say? If if you could think oflike, and I know that you've
worked with so many people, sothis may be a hard question to
answer. But can you think abouta client that you just got
really excited about? That madelike the transformation that she
(32:22):
wanted to make? Yeah. Well, ifmy clients well, yes. I know
that. And this is why I'm like,this is a hard question. I don't
mean, yeah, you've helped somany people. And I know that and
I guess overall, I'm not maybe aspecific client, but I like
using like an individual.
Caroline (32:43):
Yeah, we
Jen (32:44):
all example story. Yeah,
Caroline (32:47):
absolutely.
Absolutely. I will. Okay, so Ihave all kind of generalize it,
but Well, no, you asked for aspecific story. Okay. So let me
think of someone who
Jen (33:00):
can't, why don't you
generalize and then back into,
Caroline (33:04):
okay, okay, here's
what typically happens. My, the
people that come to me havetried a bunch of different
things. They have very similarto my journey. They've tried the
podcast, they've tried dryJanuary. I love that this is
actually tape
Jen (33:21):
recording. And yeah, in
January, yeah.
Caroline (33:25):
They've tried some
challenges. They've tried a
couple of the kind of toe dippedand do some different areas. And
they intellectually understand.
There's a big difference betweenthat intellectual understanding
and living it day to day.
Because, and like you saidbefore, like the decision Well,
(33:45):
I kind of my my stepmom made acomment to me one time, like, I
don't understand why people needcoaches, don't they just decide
and do it? I'm like,
Jen (33:55):
It's only if only
Caroline (34:02):
it would be easy.
Jen (34:03):
Yeah, my life would be so
much better side and did it all
on my own. Right,
Caroline (34:11):
right. Yeah. You know,
okay. Let's be nice. Um, and but
that's a whole nother story. Ilike to bring that up. Most
humans are not like that. Imean, let's face it, right,
there is a big, there's a biggap. Ya know, in our society,
we're like, I want the immediateresponse. I want the immediate,
(34:33):
like, I want the paybackimmediately. Um, so they've
already tried a bunch ofdifferent things. And then they
realize that because they dohave, maybe they've got a career
and maybe they've got whateverare typically like, in, in a
corporate environment. They'reused to hiring help. They're
(34:54):
used to like if I have a teamand I need, you know, creative
help or something like that.
Then I'm gonna go and I'm goingto hire somebody to help me out.
That will make it go, I'm gonnaget further faster when that's
the case, because I'm hiring outthe skills that I need around
that so that I have who, who Ineed around the table so that it
helps me perform better. It's myteam, right? My support team,
(35:16):
you got it? Right. Right.
Absolutely. And so when, whenthat flip occurs for them from
this is a problem I am, I needto hide that I need to keep this
undercover. I need to, you know,I can't talk to anybody about
this to wait a minute, I can dosomething about this. Now that's
(35:38):
a decision that's reallypowerful.
Jen (35:40):
Yes. Yes. Absolutely.
Caroline (35:44):
Like, for me, for
example, I'm going to, I will
come back to like, your questionhere. But like, just a little
side note is, you know, for me,I come from corporate marketing,
I was in global marketing forover 20 years, I have that
background. And I do all of mymarketing, great, whatever. I
(36:05):
decided not too long ago that Iwanted to hire somebody to help
me with my copy. And I didn't doit from a place of lack from,
oh, my God, there's a hugeproblem here. I did it from a
place of, I really want to workwith her. It will be nice to
have like somebody by my side.
And this, literally, I thoughtto myself, like this will be
(36:26):
fun. This will be I will getfurther faster. Yeah. So notice
the shift there. Like, it wasn'tlike, Oh, my God, this is a
problem. I'm gonna die. It waslike, I there's a hope there.
There is a like, there, thiswill make me stronger. This will
make me better. Right. And Ithink that that's important.
(36:50):
Like just to recognize thatthere's not a save me energy.
Jen (36:54):
Right? Yeah, you're coming
at it from more of a place of
this is going to increase mycapabilities.
Caroline (37:03):
Right, right. Because
I know that I will get there at
some point. There's also thatthere's a there's a belief in
there that I know that I willget there at some point. I need
to figure out exactly how I needto do that. Like if I were to
wallpaper my room or something.
I'm going to do a littleresearch. Whatever. I could
figure that out on my own. Icould I totally good. Yeah. So I
(37:25):
want to put in the time andeffort. Right.
Jen (37:31):
Right in frustration, and
when someone else does this for
a living? Yeah. And has done1000s of wallpapering over your
first time of going throughsomething. It's just where do we
want to spend our time. And italso sounds like you you got to
(37:54):
the point where it's like itwould be nice to just have
someone else on my side. So Idon't feel like I'm out here
doing all this little stuff thatI can't do it. Yeah. It's just
that is this. Like, would I wantto spend my time doing something
else? Like talking to morepeople and helping them?
Caroline (38:12):
Yeah, exactly.
Exactly. Yeah. So I'm gonna comeback. I'm sorry. No, it's okay.
I love it.
Jen (38:18):
I love it. Very useful.
Thank you.
Caroline (38:21):
So a lot of times,
this client is has tried a bunch
of different things has come tothis decision, like, Oh, I
could, there are resourcesavailable to me. I could. And
what that looks like is there alot of starts and stops, we want
to believe that it's a straightline, but it's more like Chutes
(38:41):
and Ladders. And it getsdiscouraging when we fall out.
Jen (38:47):
I love Chutes and Ladders.
A lot of the newer generationI'm not entirely sure remember
Chutes and Ladders. But it's agreat like when you said it and
I started picturing the gamebecause you know, sometimes you
land on the like either theslide that you kind of slide
back down and you have to workyour way back up again. You
know, I'm like absolutely right.
(39:11):
Sometimes you just find yourselflike Tang, I just laid it on
that slide. And I feel like Ijust moved backwards.
Caroline (39:16):
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
And so like just recognizesimilar to what we did earlier,
like when we were talking it'slike that resistance comes up.
And it's doesn't have to be aproblem. And so I help my
clients kind of work throughthat and like see that as see
that differently. That doesn'tmean stop. And I just say doubt
the doubt before you doubt thegoal. Yeah, the goal for a
(39:40):
really long time this doubt isjust coming up because of the
resistance and that's okay.
Yeah. And so we work through acouple of different levels. We
work through the thought work,like is there some are there
some limiting beliefs thatyou've got in there, or is it
something that you just need toprocess? Like, is this something
that You need help processing?
Because your brain is saying no,no, no, we can't go there. It's
(40:02):
dangerous. I'm going to die. I'mdefinitely going to die if I
feel this. And so I help myclients kind of work through
that. Yeah. And, you know,typically what will happen is
when they, when they're engagedin the process, of course, you
know, we have to be engaged. Youhave to show up for calls,
Jen (40:24):
you have to show you have
to do the things, the decision
is just the beginning.
Caroline (40:29):
Right, right. Right.
And I joke that, like, youdidn't hire me to come to your
house and knock the drink out ofyour hand. Like, nobody wants
that.
Jen (40:36):
Yeah, exactly.
Caroline (40:39):
So, um, you know,
typically, they do have a
different, much differentrelationship with alcohol and a
different relationship withthemselves. Yeah, that's
actually one of the firstquestions that I asked, or one
of the questions that I askedwhen, when I first get on a call
with somebody is like, what isyour relationship? How would you
qualify your relationship withyourself? Yeah, so often, that
(41:02):
is a reflection of yourrelationship with alcohol?
Jen (41:06):
Well, it's such a powerful
thing, and it goes back into one
of the things that, you know,are really reiterate, you know,
even with my clients, as they'relooking at their own loved ones,
and they're like, you know, ifwe just kind of take the
substances away, then everythingwill be okay. And I'm like, Huh,
(41:29):
well, it's a start. But really,it's the relationship that they
begin to start having withthemselves. That is where the
work comes in. That's where therecovery comes in, is developing
a solid relationship, becausesubstances at the end of the day
aren't the problem. It's therelationships that we do have
(41:49):
with ourselves, and we have toreally be paying attention and
looking at what is thatrelationship? And are we having
a good relationship withourselves? Because, I mean, in
this, this may be something thatpeople may push back against
when I say it. But at the end ofthe day, it's like every
(42:12):
recovery person that sustains inrecovery, it's because they
develop a really healthyrelationship with themselves.
But in order to do that, it'slike paying attention to what it
is that we're feeding ourselves,whether it's food, or whether
it's like, how are we coping,whether it's, you know, the
alcohol, it's like, having asolid relationship is like, what
(42:40):
keeps people from going intothose coping things?
Caroline (42:43):
Yeah, totally. And I
want to, I want to add to that,
like, Sure, there's the outerwork, and there's the inner
work, because a lot of timeswhen I say that to people,
they're like, What do you mean,I don't even know what that's
like, we will I don't know what
Jen (42:58):
I get it. Yeah.
Caroline (42:59):
How do I even what
does that even mean? And I like
I like to start small and say,Are you listening to your inner
dialogue? Like, we know thatthere's, I call it Instagram
porn, where like, we've gotthese quotes that are like,
super exciting. We're like, Whatthe hell do I do about that? I
(43:19):
don't know. I don't know. Like ahot second. And then it just
goes away. Because I don't knowwhat to bring. Yeah. And so when
I asked that question, andpeople freeze up, I get it. I've
been there. Totally bought the tshirt. Yeah. But it really does
start with how we're feedingourselves. What are we
(43:42):
physically putting into ourbody? What are the what are the
words that we're saying toourselves? By saying, I'm such
an idiot? Why do I do thatagain? Versus what would I say
to my child? What would I savedto my best friend, whatever,
you'd never say that. Ever,ever, ever, ever. And that
freaks people out. So like,again, we've bought into this
(44:04):
myth that if we're nice toourselves, that we're gonna lay
on the couch and eat chips andwatch TV all day. And when you
truly love somebody, you takegood care of them.
Jen (44:14):
Yeah. Yeah, no accurate.
And there's places where, like,if, you know, just to be
completely transparent, whereit's like, I really love these
things about myself and I don'tlove the other things about
myself. And the other thingsthat I don't love about myself
is where I find myself wantingto cope a little bit more. And
so we're so worth, me and Jenare still working on our
(44:38):
relationship together.
Caroline (44:43):
But I think that like
that is that is so and thank you
for your transparency for yourhonesty, because that is I think
that's everybody's work. Yeah,yeah. I mean, it's, it's opening
up to their parts of me that Ilove and they're parts of me
that are that or that I'mkeeping in shadow? Because I
don't love so much. Yeah, butwhen we think about that, from
(45:05):
the perspective of think about aloved one, maybe you don't love
XYZ about your partner orwhatever snores did it, it
leaves his socks on the floor orwhatever it is, like pulling
back as a whole. There's love.
Jen (45:26):
Absolutely.
Caroline (45:28):
And like that, in
particularly with your clients,
when your clients are thinkingabout the situation where they
feel so powerless. The onepower, the one thing that we all
have, is how we're choosing toshow up. When we show up with
love. That's always right.
Jen (45:48):
Yes? And how, how do we
continue to show up with love
and focus? Because one of thethings that I talk about my, my,
my clients with, and you know,I'll never claim that I'm the
most perfect person in this, butit's like, it's the truth of how
(46:08):
do we look more at behaviors sothat we can stay in love, I
don't like it when you do X, Y,and Z not, you know, like,
you're not a great person, orwhatever it is. I don't like it
when you behave like you robbingthat store at gunpoint was not a
behavior that I enjoyedwatching. Right, right. No, I
(46:34):
think you're a bad person. JustI think that behavior was not in
alignment with who I know thatyou are deep down. Yeah. And
that's how we stay, you know,loving even towards the person
is.
And this is where
Caroline (46:50):
right distinction.
Yeah,
Jen (46:51):
yeah. And it's like, I
think, you know, talking to
like, the families like that,it's, it's coming from
separating the two. And thenwhere do you find yourself of
how you are, manage yourrelationship with yourself
through, you know, what theirloved one is experiencing, like,
(47:16):
and I think that's important,because if you, if you're, if
your loved one goes out and robsa convenience store at gunpoint,
I'll just use that as anexample. I know, that's
dramatic, but it happens, right?
And you start seeing yourself asa bad parent, that's going to
influence not only the way thatyou feel about yourself, but the
way that you feel about yourloved one, right? It's like, how
do we separate the two? Thatdoesn't make you a bad parent?
(47:39):
It's like, it's just what theyare choosing to do with their
lives? Totally? And how do westill have that loving
relationship?
Caroline (47:50):
Yeah, and just to
build on that, when we think of
ourselves as a bad parent, thatwe make it all about us, and we
actually show up as a badparent.
Jen (47:58):
Right? Right, because we
don't, because it's like, one,
we are going into parentingterritory in a territory that is
not about parenting. Right?
Right. At this point, it's nolonger about parenting, it's
about the relationship that youhave with yourself, and the
relationship that you have withyour loved one and the
boundaries that recreate aroundthat. And that includes the
(48:19):
emotional boundaries, you know,and the way that I see like
boundaries and making themunbreakable, is this idea that
we have to live a very boundarylifestyle, and that goes a lot
in conjunction with what you'retalking about, where, you know,
what am I okay with in my life?
(48:39):
And what am I not okay with inmy life? And then how can I live
within what I am okay with andwhat I want for my life? And how
do I want to feel about myself?
Right, right. You know, and wecreate boundaries as a
lifestyle, not boundaries aswolves, or places in which we
just push people away. So how dowe bring people in, in a safe
(49:03):
way, including ourselves?
Caroline (49:08):
Yeah, there's a lot of
comfort in knowing exactly where
the lines are. Yeah. Yeah.
Jen (49:13):
Well, I just really want to
thank you so much for this was a
really helpful podcast for me tolisten more because I'm like,
all of a sudden, I'm very awareof some challenges that I'm
having with myself. And I'm sograteful that there are people
out there like you that are kindof going well, let's look at
(49:35):
that relationship that you dohave with yourself and like
what's coming up for you? Andyou did that so brilliant,
brilliantly. So I just reallythink you what would like be one
final thought to share with theaudience?
Caroline (49:50):
Well, I think first of
all, thank you for having me
today. It's been What adelightful conversation. I've
really enjoyed it. Um, And Iwould say that for your
listeners, I know that they'retuning in because they're are
struggling with a loved one. Andso often what happens is, we get
(50:12):
sucked into this messaging thatis all around us that alcohol
will help you cope, or m&ms aregonna help you cope, whatever it
is. And so you're not alone. Byany stretch of the imagination.
This is like, it's, you're likea fish in water, basically.
Right? So I do have, I do have afree stopover drinking course
(50:37):
that I have on my website. AndI'll give you the link to that.
And it's not like you have toshow up at a specific time with
on Zoom or anything. It's justit's delivered to your email to
your inbox. And so I want tooffer that to anybody who would
find that helpful. Oh,absolutely.
Jen (50:52):
Yeah. And what's the
easiest way for just the
listeners to go find that, like,what is your website?
Caroline (50:59):
My website is Caroline
hoki, coaching.com. And at ca R
O L, I N E. H OLKE coaching.com.
All one word. Excellent. So it'sright there on the homepage.
And, you know, I get it i i kindof lingered in the background
(51:20):
for a little while before Istarted really engaging with
people, which is totally normal,totally normal. So take
advantage of the things thatwe've got available. There's a
free resources page on mywebsite, as well. So
Jen (51:35):
right, it's like, you have
nothing to lose. And I know, for
the show notes, what that yousent me there, you also have
like a YouTube channel thatpeople can go check out. And
there's all kinds of reallyinteresting topics, people can
kind of get to know you thatway. And Instagram and Facebook
and those kinds of resources,all of that can be found on the
(52:00):
show notes. So like, if you'rein the car, you're listening to
this, you can go check out theunbreakable boundaries
podcast.com and go find all herlinks. So I think she has some
fabulous information both on ourwebsite and on like her YouTube
channel, you really feel likeyou kind of get to know even
(52:20):
more about you, which I think isfabulous. Well, thank you so
much for coming on. This is veryinspiring, very helpful for me,
I have a lot to think about evenfor myself, so I appreciate you.
I really do. I really do. Andthank you for listening to this
podcast. If you want to listento more or find more information
(52:43):
out about this podcast and moreof what I do to help families
you can go check out my page atunbreakable boundaries
podcast.com. It's full of othergreat podcasts just like this
one, and other great resourcesto look through. And please
remember to share this podcastwith others you never know who
may need to hear this. Peopleare often hiding their battles
in this arena and sharing is agreat way to provide this
(53:06):
valuable resource to a personyou may not even know who needs
it. And don't forget, there isalways hope, even when things
seem the most hopeless