#70: Katie and Barb Kocher: The Importance of Grace and Understanding

In this episode of the podcast, host Jen Maneely welcomes Katie Kocher and her mother, Barb Kocher, to share their heartfelt journey through addiction and recovery. Katie opens up about her feelings of isolation and misunderstanding during her youth, despite excelling academically and athletically. Barb reflects on her unawareness of the signs of Katie's struggles and acknowledges the effects of their strict parenting approach. As Katie's addiction worsened, it led to serious consequences, including expulsion from sports teams and a car accident. After 15 tumultuous years, Katie found hope in rehab, discovering the healing power of art therapy. Now five years clean, she and Barb discuss the importance of grace and understanding in their relationship, highlighting the joy of reconnecting and the lessons learned along the way. This insightful conversation sheds light on the complexities of addiction and the strength found in family support.

Episode Transcript

Jen (00:02):
Welcome back to the unbreakable boundaries podcast
with your host, myself, JenniferManeely, and this is going to be
a really fun episode for me. Iactually have my friend Katie
Coker on and her mom, BarbCoker. Look, I said that right
and and I'm just really excited,because it's another one of
those opportunities that we getto have some insights from a

(00:26):
mother and a daughter and whatsome of their experiences were,
while you have a parent that isdealing with a child that is in
active addiction, and what doesthat look like for them? So I'm
always really excited to get tohear some of these types of
stories, because I think it'sreally important for us to start

(00:47):
feeling not alone, to startreally kind of getting some of
that education going on in termsof that people, this is what
people experience, and this iswhat they go through. And I
think we need to talk about it.
So this is, this is what I'mgoing to start with. Is I'm
going to start with Katie. Hi.
Katie, hi. And I think I wouldlove to kind of hear from each

(01:12):
of you, like, what were some ofyour experiences in terms of
growing up? And I know this is abig question, and we don't have
like, you know, all day to talkabout it, but just kind of your
experience of what it wasgrowing up like in your
household, and what were some ofthe things that maybe you

(01:32):
struggled with even before someof the drugs came into the
picture.

Katie (01:38):
So I feel like this would be interesting for my mom to
speak on, but

Jen (01:44):
she will okay, like, as a as a child, child, yeah, before
drugs came to the picture. Like,I

Katie (01:53):
just have memories of, like, very I think I have kind
of limited memories, but I doremember things like hiding in
the laundry basket, like waitingfor somebody to come look for
me, and nobody ever came andlooked for me, or things like,

(02:14):
if we didn't, because there wasfive kids, right? And if we
didn't go to the restaurant thatI wanted to go to, then I would
not speak and not order.

Jen (02:29):
When you were hiding in the laundry basket and nobody came
to look for you. What like? Howdid you perceive that in your
little kid brain? And that's

Katie (02:38):
the interesting part. Is I don't remember going very deep
with it. I just remember gettingbored and leaving laundry
basket. But I remember, like,feeling, I remember we were at
the old house, so it would havebeen before I was eight, like
the way that the living room wassort of like adjacent to the

(02:58):
kitchen. And I remember, like,laying on that couch while I
while everyone was like, in thekitchen, around the table, like,
laughing and talking, having agood time, and I felt like,
really negative and like, apartfrom, yeah, just like I didn't
belong, or like I was lonely,or, yeah, I mean,

Jen (03:22):
and this, and this was in a house where you had four other
siblings.

Katie (03:27):
I think at that point there would have been three,
okay, two, two or three othersiblings

Jen (03:34):
and and obviously, like your your mom and your dad, so
it's kind of a house full,right, people, and yet you still
kind of were feeling very a partof and kind of along, is that
yeah,

Katie (03:47):
apart from Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jen (03:49):
And so Barbara Barb, I'll ask the same question, is in
your in your perspective, whatwas it like at that time, like
when Katie was growing up, andwhat was going on with you, and
how did you see her?

Barb (04:07):
So things were very busy, particularly at the early time
that Katie addressed there. Wedid have the four kids at that
particular house, and you know,not long after the fifth one
joined my husband and I bothworked full time, both in pretty
demanding jobs. At that time, wemade such great effort in my

(04:34):
guide post, however faulty atthe time was to do better than
my parents did. No offense momand dad, but Katie has recalled,
you know, one of my woundsgrowing up is that mom, I had
six siblings, and mom and dadnever attended anything that I
did on my own, so we like playsor swim meets or that type of

(04:56):
thing, so we did a lot of familytime. We were having dinners
together every night, to includeKatie. We went on family
vacations. We camped a lot backthen. We made everybody go to
church with us on the weekends,at least until, you know, after
they turned 16, or somearbitrary number that you know,

(05:18):
I had picked. And I think inpart because of the chaos of
having so many people in thehouse, and in part because it
was the way I was raised, wefollowed a very formulaic way to
be in the house. And honestly,I'm gonna, I'm gonna start
crying, um, as Katie recallsfeeling apart from the family, I

(05:45):
did not realize that at thetime, if she secluded herself in
the living room or felt left outin that way, it I was following
a plan. You know, I don't thinkwe were harsh disciplinarians.
We didn't use a belt or anythinglike that. We did spank that,
you know, at that time again, 30years ago or so, and you were

(06:10):
told to do something. You wereexpected to do it, and, you
know, on and on it, just in thatway. It was just the way things
were. And I'm not happy thatKatie struggled what I am
absolutely so touched by is whatI have learned and developed
through her process recovery.
I'm very, very grateful for thedepth that I have found in that

(06:32):
process.

Katie (06:35):
I like the funny stories about like, when you first heard
me laugh,

Barb (06:44):
oh, well, that wasn't the question I was asked, but it
does go to personality. So it istrue. It does go to personality.
Katie was as a newborn, so she'snumber two. Number two, the
first one was very easy, goingvery, you know, we thought we
were the best parents ever. Andthen along came Katie, just 14

(07:07):
months later, who didn't sleepthrough the night, who was, you
know, very unhappy, verydemanding, very trying, all of
those things. And what the storythat Katie is recalling is that
she was probably about six weeksold, and I was just literally at
wit's end. I could not comforther. I couldn't get anything, so

(07:28):
I had her above my head anddidn't shake her. But you know,
I'm like, What do you want fromme? She laughed, literally she
laughed. And that is the that isthe first time she does recall
the story correctly, and Ishould have had the forethought
at that time. Oh, boy, are we infor a ride here? And I did, you
know, I was just so overjoyedthat I got a happy emotion from

(07:50):
her that I didn't even thinkabout what that meant about her
personality. But yes, inretrospect, that was a clue that
I missed

Jen (07:58):
so basic Well, first of all, I commend you for
continuing to have the kids,because my mom, my mom, stopped
after one, and she was like, Ijust don't think we can do this
again. So, you know, kudos foryou. But I think it's, it's, I
mean, obviously we can look athindsight. But is that kind of

(08:21):
just for clarity sake, are yousaying that you're going, I was
so frustrated and angry, and waslike, What do you want for me?
And that's when she startedlaughing. And that's kind of
just how it has always been,where it's like people get
frustrated, and she just sitsback and laughs. That sounds
about right, that tracks,

Katie (08:42):
oh. Taylor says, Yeah, I don't mean to be that way.

Barb (08:46):
Yeah. I think that she's not afraid of big emotions,
actually, at least now. I mean,I wonder if that was the case
then and then, just the way weraised because part of our
German and you know, heritage isto repress all of that, and you
just do what you got to do, andyou ignore bad feelings. And I
think Katie, my perception, now,obviously, she can speak for

(09:08):
herself, is that she wasexperiencing, she didn't get
that part of the genetics, andso repressing those big
feelings, I clearly, I think,harmed her. And I just, you
know, since I wasn'tacknowledging big feelings at
the time, I could hardly noticethem in my young daughter at the
time,

Katie (09:28):
I think looking back on that situation with sort of the
information that I have now,just about ADHD and sensory
seeking. You know, we think ofsensory seeking. I worked with
kids in the facility aftergetting clean. And we think of
sensory seeking as, oh, theywant to put their hands in sand
and feel that. But it can alsobe wanting to spin around and

(09:49):
run around or and so Possibly,yeah, seeking, yeah, yeah, that
just the sensation of being upthere and seeing, you know, I
don't know, but you know, theair. Plain thing that's also a
sensory experience for kids, andthat's why they enjoy it. So,
yeah, I don't know, but I dohear, and you know, a lot of

(10:10):
people's recovery stories, oh,they knew when they were they
were an addict at such and suchpoint. You know, I don't
remember struggling with withfood or sneaking treats or being
anything like that. But I dothink just the part of you know,

(10:32):
I would say mental illness. Butmom, you and dad always said
that my perception was skewed,and I think that's probably a
accurate read on, you know, thefeelings that I was feeling as a
child just kind of reallynegative, and apart from and the

(10:54):
like attempts at connecting andlove, like weren't quite
hitting, so it was like I wasn'treceiving what you guys were,
you know, attempting to ourformula. Yeah, yeah, when
prescribing

Jen (11:12):
to the this is what you do.
This is how you live. This is,and I grew up in a very kind of
similar way, where my mom waslike, This is how you behave.
These. This is like when you goto school. This. This is our
prescription of life.

Katie (11:27):
Oh, I remember another example, perfect example of like
with the church on the weekends.
I always had bloody knees,because those damn tights, you
would bloody your knee, and thenyou would have to wear tights on
the weekend, and your scab thenwhen you go to pee, you have to
pull your tights down. You pullyour scab off, and I feel like I
still have scars from but Idon't remember complaining about

(11:47):
having to wear tights, but I doremember, you know, being in the
stall at the show knees orwhatever, just like, goodness
gracious, you know, just

Barb (11:57):
to clarify for listeners, those work bloody knees that
either the church or yourparents imposed,

Katie (12:02):
I think the bike, I just

Barb (12:05):
wanted to make sure,

Katie (12:08):
yeah, from like having to kneel on rice or something,
yeah? No,

Barb (12:11):
no, just your, your active lifestyle, right? Yeah,

Katie (12:16):
I remember climbing trees, yeah, riding bike. I
think all three of us wereoutside a lot. Katie

Barb (12:24):
was a star soccer player.
She ran a record breaking Was itan 800 in middle school on a
stress fractured Shin that wedidn't know about until she had
been complaining that her leghurt, but wanted to run the
championship race there, and shedid and won it. And then we had
the X ray, and she had a stressfracture, yeah, so, I mean, she

(12:44):
is, yeah, she was in. Is just aphenomenal, phenomenal. But
there was

Katie (12:53):
that thing in first grade. See, I'm going to bring
up all the stories. There wasthat thing in what

Barb (12:57):
was the first day, Miss neason was her name, and we had
a great deal of difficulty withback talk from Katie, which,
again, didn't fit the formula,right, no matter, but it acts,
yeah, yeah, no matter what wassaid or imposed. And this, too
is a clue. It struck me, andI've carried it with me, but I

(13:19):
didn't understand. It would havebeen enough, actually, had I
been attuned to, you know, thethings now that that I have a
better understanding of. But atthe conclusion of the parent
teacher conference at whichKatie was not present, I said,
and of course, everything wasvery complimentary. Katie was an
excellent student and dideverything she's supposed to at

(13:41):
school she's not at home. But Isaid, Miss neason, I would like
to ask a question, do you havedifficulty with back talk from
Katie in school? And Miss neasonpaused and then said, Katie has

(14:03):
a very strong inner sense ofjustice and that, oh, now, Jen,
you're nodding Absolutely.
That's by Katie right in that isfor everything that I was
calling back talk. I do thinkit's motivated from that really
deep within with her seeking andsearching for justice, for for
all at the time, it didn't solvemy problems at the dinner table,

(14:27):
and again, I stored that away,but,

Jen (14:34):
but this is an interesting little insight about how just
one little change in perspectivecan kind of alter your view on
the person that's like, right infront of you, right where you're
like, Oh, that makes a littlebit more sense. And I, you know,
like, because I haven'tobviously known Katie for as

(14:55):
long as you have, but I will saythat she. She will defend her
friends and the people that shecares about, like tooth. And if
she sees something that's just,she feels like it's just not
right. That's where I see whenshe gets that, like fire, and
she starts just absolutely,she's like, I gotta make this

(15:19):
right. And sometimes that cancome off a little aggressive,
but it's from, like, the bestplace in her heart, right? So
some of those, like, just thatlittle bit of change in
perspective can, can reallychange the way that we see a
person, right? And, and I wantto kind of fast forward a little

(15:42):
bit here and go into and askKatie, so obviously there
eventually drugs started tobecome into the picture. When
would you say that you had yourfirst maybe inclination that
there was an issue?

Katie (16:01):
So I actually okay. So let's just say this okay in
fifth grade, I remember a littleboy down the street. He
approached me and was like, Hey,I talked to a girl who went to
your school, and I asked her whois popular? And she said, You
were and I like that has burnedin my brain, because I think all

(16:23):
of a sudden I became aware thatI was being perceived and that
there was something calledPopular that I needed to know
about and needed to concernmyself with. Then I remember
entering middle school where,like, clothing changed all of a
sudden we were, like, shoppingat limited too, and I had been a
tomboy, and so was just reallystruggling with like, I feel

(16:48):
like all of a sudden, I don'tknow I had to be, I had to dress
different or something, and butdrinking was cool. I feel like,
among my friends now, lookingback, I realized I had some
friends who had some really deepseated issues at home with they
were like, doing the self harmand but being their friends like

(17:11):
I didn't understand what wasgoing on. And, yeah, I think at
that point, I thought we werejust like, exploring and having
fun, and didn't realize that itwas something that I was going
to have a problem with, right?

Jen (17:29):
Well, and that's and that's kind of why I like to ask that
question of, like, when is thefirst time you notice there's a
problem? Because there's, like,a difference between, like, the
normal like, what kind of normalkids go through, they're like,
drinking, they're experimenting.
And I think by and large, like80% of the population
experiences that, right whereit's like, I'm just, I'm just in

(17:50):
my young thing, like, days, andI'm discovering alcohol, or I'm
discovering some other things,and then it's like, at some
point, though, it turns right, I

Katie (18:06):
don't think it turned for me personally, until way later,
yeah, but I was blacking out,you know, I was doing things
were happening that, you know,the Yeah, like, getting lesson
and things and but that waslike, I didn't even understand

(18:26):
those things as I understandthem today. So I It wasn't
until, like, I mean, I reallydon't think I recognize the
memory that I have in my brainis just of me when I was in high
school years later, being when Idecided, when I found a more

(18:49):
reliable connection for OC 80sand like, sort of was, like
laying in my bed being like, Idon't know if I should do this
every day, but it makes me feelbetter. I'm going to kind of
thing and like taking that road,and that's at the point that I
remember making a choice to, yousee, I'm saying, right? That's

(19:10):
the and that was years later,you know,

Jen (19:14):
and so that was kind of the point. And I guess, you know,
follow up question, because yousaid you there were a lot of
times in which, like, you wereblacking out and things were
happening to you in these, theseblackouts. So in your mind,
though, how, like, what wasgoing on in your mind in those

(19:34):
instances to kind of, like, kindof shrug that off and make that
like a normalized thing for you.
Well, that

Katie (19:41):
was still in middle school, so there was not this
understanding. That's what Ithought dream was,

Jen (19:47):
right? So you were just like, so this is just what
happens when you drink, yeah,yeah, right, yeah. Totally
normal in middle school, right,right? Because, like, that's
what everybody in middle schoolis doing.

Katie (19:59):
Well, in my mind.
Everybody. I mean, it was myfriends, and even of my friends.
I wonder how many were actuallyblacking out, but to me, that
was my experience. So, oh, that

Jen (20:07):
like, that's what everybody's doing, yeah, yeah.
And so Barb, you know, nowyou're hearing this, right? And
I don't know what you guys havetalked about and what you guys
have not, um, but she's inmiddle school. What's your
perspective on what washappening in her world at that
time? So

Barb (20:27):
just for the record, that was new information for me. But
moving on from there, the Katiecontinued to be an excellent
student. We

Katie (20:44):
battle the books.

Barb (20:45):
Battle the books. Yeah, all of that soccer track, all
that I've said before, twothings she was, in many
respects, very mature. Continuedwith the theme of that strong
inner sense of justice, whichcaused difficulty with teaching
staff, both in the middle schooland high school levels, for

(21:07):
sure, and it was note to me. Idon't remember what class it was
or who the teacher was, but shecame home from middle school
having gotten out of one of herassigned classes and put in a
different one. Do you rememberthat Kate and anyway, they'd
never contacted me. Katie didthis all on her own, which my

(21:30):
internal response was, how canthe middle school do this? You
know, the second thing that soall of that was happening, then
the second story is that for thefirst time, and Katie's going to
laugh here, maybe, but Katiedidn't, I don't know, she got
her first grade card with maybe2b on it, or something like

(21:51):
that. I don't even remember nowwhat the problem was, I was very
concerned because of what we hadseen that was different. Now I
do remember one. I realized thatdrinking, because we had found
empty evidence of drinking, Idon't know if it was cans or a

(22:12):
bottle of wine or something inour bonus room upstairs, so I
knew that, okay, we're, we're inthat era, you know. So with
that, what I viewed as a declinein her grades, I came up with a
contract that she had to sign. Istill write, still in the house.
I still run into it occasionallythat it wasn't you know her, it

(22:38):
was her promise that this wasnot an indication of her losing
interest in her schoolwork, andshe was going to reapply herself
and all this other kind ofstuff, you know. So what I am
also now aware consistent withKatie's own awareness about
brand names and things likethat, which we've never been I
mean, she described herself as atomboy. I call us the Beverly

(23:01):
Hillbillies. We live in afairly, you know, a suburban
area, and we've got a tractor inthe backyard, which, you know,
don't tell anybody it's notsupposed to be there, and it
just, you can't get a car in ourgarage and that kind of stuff.
So, no, we didn't, we didn't domuch by brand names. I remember
one Christmas she wanted a pairof is it seven?

Katie (23:24):
Sevens for all being kind? There you go, jeans

Barb (23:27):
for Christmas. And she wanted them so bad. That's not
our Christmas budget, you know?
So that is what she got. Wasthat one pair of jeans for
Christmas. But I saw at the timethis was going on, then I saw
that increased awareness, and infairness, part of our formula
was, what will the neighborsthink? That is how we were
raised, and it didn't have thateffect on me as a child, because

(23:49):
our neighbors didn't have brandnames. But I can see now, in
retrospect, if our speech andactions are act right when
you're in public, because yougot to be careful what the
neighbors what the neighborsthink. How that could on a
developing child turn into I gotaddressed the right way. I got
to and her comrades were ofhigher financial you know, it

(24:14):
just was a school group,

Katie (24:24):
did you cut out or no,

Jen (24:27):
just for a second. Okay, it's okay.

Barb (24:29):
So that message is not to me, okay. So it's all
interesting the way it all comestogether. Because I we were
seeing that this was, you know,developing, I guess. And it was
sometime, maybe within the nexttwo years of there Katie, that
we started seeking counseling.

Katie (24:51):
So my real quick, just on the brand is yes, when we moved
to the fancy neighborhood, Icall it, I remember being on the
bus, and it was they made fun ofme for not. Having brand shoes.
And I was like, What is a brandname? Like, I didn't even know
what that meant. I didn't knowgeneric and brand name. I think
I was in like, third grade whenwe moved but um, and I wasn't.
We were very and then, like,yeah, I guess I didn't realize

(25:15):
that boys bully you when theylike you. So I thought, like,
everyone hated me, but, um, yes.
So I think I believe it was thesummer of after eighth grade
when you found beer cans undermy bed and I was sent to
counseling. So it would havebeen like right before high
school, yeah, and then I thinkthe perfectionism started

(25:40):
cropping up around that time,just with, like, cross country
and, you know, like, or thepressure, because I remember,
you know, we talk about Dad,whenever dad would be like, how
was your run? And I'd be like,you know, stop pressuring me.
Because I thought, if whatever Iwould tell him wouldn't be good
enough, like I if I told him,Oh, I, you know, I only ran to

(26:03):
kill her farm or whatever, whichis, I don't know how far that
is, but in my brain, he wasn'tgonna think that was far enough.

Jen (26:15):
So Barb, you found these NC beer cans. She's in eighth
grade, right before summer ofeighth grade, right before
getting into high school, rightand you found these empty beer
cans. What went through yourmind when you found the beer
cans?

Barb (26:32):
Oh, the initial reaction again, going to my formula was,
how disrespectful, honestly,that's the first How dare that
happened in my house,

Katie (26:44):
because that's my immediate response to things.

Barb (26:48):
Because, you know, we were so afraid of our parents, and
they weren't, you know, by all,we weren't beaten to a, you
know, an inappropriate degreeeither, but that, was the
relationship, and that was myboth Kate's dad, and my initial
response was, how disrespectful,you know, and so that's where

(27:12):
the punishment thought comes in.
Now, before we reacted to Katiein that way, we talked about it,
thought about it. We assumed itwas exploration. I had no idea
that Katie had started drinkingso much earlier. And, you know,
was drinking to blackouts evenprior to that time. We were
aware that kids were goingthrough open garages and taking

(27:34):
alcohol out of other neighborsopen garages at the time, and
she had a particular friend. Ithat perhaps when I questioned
Katie and her older sister, bythe way, this was we didn't know
this to be Katie. You gottaremember, we've got the other
kids in the house too, and whenI questioned them, I think this
friend's name came up. So as asthe perpetrator who had brought

(27:56):
the alcohol in from havingstolen from a neighbor's garage.
And I don't remember whatagreement we reached, but we
actually sat down, included thatfriend in our discussion with
Kelly and Katie, and we thoughtwe were being very progressive
at the time, and dealt with itas they were exploring
something. We didn't care forit. We didn't care for it

(28:20):
happening in our house, therelikely was some type of
goodness. It's been so longsince I've punished somebody.
What? When you're put onrestriction, what is that?
Grounding? Grounding?

Jen (28:33):
Yeah,

Barb (28:33):
we likely grounded. But I still I didn't have any notice
toward a problem at that point?
Yeah,

Jen (28:43):
of course, of course. Not one. She's an eighth grade she's
a great student, right? She'sgot all of these other things
correct.

Barb (28:49):
She signed the contract mark, she's

Jen (28:51):
and she stopped the contract.
I mean, who could ever goagainst the contract? Exactly

Barb (28:58):
right. So I'm

Jen (28:59):
going to, I'm going to fast forward, at least for especially
for time's sake, in getting intowhen the problem started
becoming a problem. And you hadkind of hinted at Katie when you
were a few years later, youstarted noticing that there was

(29:19):
a problem from the time that youwere kind of like, I noticed
that there's, like, maybe alittle bit of an issue here, but
it makes me feel good, so I'mgonna keep doing it anyway. So
the point in which you got werekind of way further down the
road. Well, how long was that

Katie (29:40):
I well, I got kicked off the cross country team for
drinking during practice. I wasa varsity cross country runner.
I can't remember if I was allAmerican, but I know like
people, my running matedefinitely was, and that's who I
kept up with at races. And I.
Yeah, I got and again, andlooking back, it's kind of

(30:02):
funny, because I've alwaysblamed the girl. We had gotten
alcohol for the weekend throughour older friends, and it was at
her house, and she lived rightnear the school, and so we ran
over there and just took oneshot, and she came back and
tried to snatch it drunk, andended up, we ended up getting
kicked off the team, but yeah,so I think I started getting in

(30:27):
trouble. So that happened. Andthen the SOC, the travel soccer
team that I was on, they heardabout it, and they wanted, there
was, they wanted to kick me offthe team too, or set me on the
bench or something. And then,and then I totaled my car.
Things started happening prettyquickly.

Jen (30:48):
So things went downhill pretty fast at some point and
Barb, when things kind ofstarted going downhill, what was
your first like moment where youcould see things going a little
not according to your plan.
You're like, okay, maybe there'sa little bit more of an issue
here. I

Barb (31:08):
don't remember probably the first time, what my first
memory though, is that thingswere, although I can't define it
anymore, specifically therelationship had degraded. We I
was uncertain as to what Katiewas doing the and I have some

(31:29):
exposure to the topic outside ofmy family, and I was a growing
sense of this cannot be good,right? And we didn't talk she
she did not share counseling, bythe way, did not go well. We
tried different counsel. Youknow, it, it. Things were a
mess. And I knew that much. Onemorning before it was still

(31:52):
dark, before my alarm went off,Katie got into bed with her dad,
and I got in on my side of thebed, and my eyes opened, she
never said a word, and that Iknew something was up. Both

(32:13):
something is wrong, and Oh dearGod, she still comes to me. I
mean, so even though shecouldn't articulate it, that
gave me hope that, I mean, I hadno clue the measure of what we
were dealing with, and in fact,about so my alarm went off, she
got up and left. Phone rangabout 11 o'clock that morning.

(32:33):
It was the president or theprincipal at the high school
saying that he hoped Katie hadtold me why he was calling, and
I because she'd gotten into bedwith me that morning, I was able
to say, with all honesty, I'maware there's an issue. Because,
you know, that was thebeginning. That would be my

(32:54):
bookmark of where things began.
I was out of town when shetotaled the car, and by that
point in time when her dadcalled and said, Katie's been in
a wreck. I'm going there now, hecalled me back after the fact,
still from the scene, and said,I think Katie's got a head
injury. I'm going to take her tothe emergency room. And I said,
What do you mean? You thinkshe's got a head injury? And he

(33:15):
said, Well, she keeps fallingasleep. I said, Kevin, you need
to go get a drug test now andtest her, because that's not,
that's not what hit it, youknow, with everything else I
had, this is, she needs to betested. And he said, I can't
test my own daughter. I'm, youknow, it was a foreign Oh, yeah.
And he did not, so I had alecture to give the next morning
at eight. He did take you to theemergency room. I am so grateful

(33:37):
that they Well, I don't know,you know, it goes both ways. I
was glad at the time that theydid not test you there, because
it kept it in house. You know, Igave my lecture first thing in
the morning, hit the road,stopped CVS on my way, bought a
test, and it was positive when Igot home. So and however,

Jen (33:56):
it was positive for benzos.

Katie (34:00):
It was positive for a few things. I think, yeah, benzo

Barb (34:03):
is what comes to mind. But yeah, I that was just the
beginning of what came to be, 15years.

Jen (34:16):
So we have 15 we have 15 years and of probably some
chaos. So I'll just ask Katie,in that time period of the that
15 years from that point on,what was like. One of the things
that stuck out to you the most,

Katie (34:42):
that I had to get good grades and do my school,

Jen (34:46):
yeah, well, so let's, let's go into like, maybe your mid, I
would say maybe your mid 20s.
Now we're gonna fast forward alittle bit and go, Okay,

Katie (34:55):
so, and by my mid 20s, I had gotten my college degree. I
had double major. Hard, and Iwas in and I was trying to
navigate what comes next. I wasstruggling to keep a job, but, I
mean, I I was checking myself onoutward success, right? So when

(35:20):
I became a paralegal and wasdoing that, and got into law
school, got a scholarship, likeI thought I was doing okay,
right?

Barb (35:28):
While using,

Jen (35:29):
while using, which is always just really impressive
one for me, because that was notI always had an external thing
for myself where, like, I wasjust a failure, because I failed
at everything, but usually bychoice, because I didn't want to
try to succeed, so you couldn't,you couldn't hide as well, in my
shoes. But I always think it'sreally impressive when someone

(35:51):
can externally be so successful.
And you say that externallysuccessful, but what was going
on internally for you?

Katie (36:02):
Um, I mean, I think I probably tried my best to not be
aware, which is, yeah, I think,I think I, you know, looking
back, it's like I had gone tocounseling and they gave me meds
and they didn't work. And so Ifound my own solution,

Jen (36:22):
right? So you're, you are kind of just like things, things
are really good. When would yousay later on in life? Did things
start turning again and getreally bad?

Katie (36:35):
Well, I think they were always kind of teetering, right?
It was like always one crisis tothe next. But I thought if I
just kept, like, the the school,or whatever in order, then
things would would pan out, um,but yeah, then in, you know,

(36:55):
close to my last year in lawschool, or maybe it was exam
time ish, and of my second yearof law school, and I had gotten
in trouble for plagiarism, justwhere I had turned in a rough
draft of something that was sorough, like there weren't

(37:15):
correct citations because Ihadn't been able To put the time
into it. And so that started. Sobasically, I got in trouble, and
that sort of started. There was,like this big conversation with
it was, I had to go in front ofa panel and and was forced to
take a semester off, but Ididn't, I wasn't able to

(37:38):
recognize, I wasn't ready toquit, basically. And so things
just kept getting worse, until Ihad that moment of, yeah, I
think, because I think I hadalways, I had always said that I
would rather die than go torehab. And I don't know, I guess

(37:59):
I thought of it as quitting, andI didn't want to be a quitter,
so to speak. I mean, people inrecovery are familiar with that
sort of mindset. But then, like,one day, I had a change of heart
and was like, oh, like, rehabisn't where you get punished and
sent to like, it's where you cango if you want to change your
life and get some tools. And Ihad just finally arrived at that

(38:21):
place,

Jen (38:22):
right? And Barb, so she's externally, she's doing well in
school and stuff. And when didyou notice that there was, like,
a deeper issue going on? Werethere like signs? Did you know
something was going on? Butmaybe you didn't know what you
were looking at. What was thatlike for you?

Barb (38:44):
So it depends. So Katie used, and we were aware of
consistent use, although she didseveral times try other
modalities than illegal drugs,you know, prescribed by the
doctors and that type of thing.
But as she noted, it was fromcrisis to crises. So

(39:05):
educationally, she did fantasticagain. You know, everything was
great, but at the same time,money was always an issue. That
is to say, she would ask formoney that we I wouldn't
question it the first time, butthen by the time we're to the
sixth request in 45 days, orthat kind of thing. So that was

(39:26):
always outstanding. You know, inwas an area of discomfort. The
calls I would get, I still I,you know, little, small trigger
for me is if my phone ringsafter at 930 at night, because
there was a time in the air whenthat person would always be

(39:47):
Katie and in an unhealthy frameof mind, I mean literally,
either ranting about somethingthat her partner the times. Said
or failed to do or, you know, itwas that was very stressful for
me. I'm not at all comparing tothe stress that she herself was
going through, but that's justmy little experience.

(40:10):
Ultimately, the we had stoppedall monetary assistance, but for
an apartment that we got her inthe hopes that she would be able
to finish law school, still notunderstanding, you know, we went
back to a contract. She had acontract. She was going to go do
all these things, and when thatlease ended, Dad literally went,

(40:35):
moved her out of that apartment,as we had told her for a year
would happen. He called me onthe way back from that area,
literally, ball. I mean, he wastorn up. It was the hardest
thing in his work that he'd everhad to do, and we didn't know

(40:55):
what was going to happen. Katiecalled, literally within 30
days, right at the 30 day mark,and asked for help. And we had
tried to force help on when wefound it, when she wrecked that
car, we took her into an IOPoutpatient program, you know,
and

Katie (41:17):
they didn't test for fentanyl back then.

Jen (41:21):
Well, back then, fentanyl wasn't hugely on the market,
yeah, I

Katie (41:26):
had access to it. Yeah.
So,

Barb (41:30):
and then from there, the story, you know, has been all
uphill, both in terms of thework that Katie has put in and
the outcome. And I, I know we'regetting short on time, and I
just want to take theopportunity to say, here I'm
going to start crying again. Icould not be in this is not to

(41:51):
put pressure on Katie. Do notmisinterpret this as pressure
for the rest of your life. Icould not be more proud of Katie
living authentically, truly,that person that had so long
tried to get out and because of,you know, the formula we lived

(42:12):
right? Um, she struggled withthat. And I am full of joy every
single day when I reflect on whoKatie is and the life she is
living now, it's just incredibleto me. Absolutely incredible.
Yeah,

Jen (42:28):
I'm glad you said that, and Katie, you called your mom and
dad and asked for help, and youwent into treatment, and what
was that experience like for youwhen you went in there.

Katie (42:43):
So, so I was in Atlanta, right? And
my mom came down and got me, andI just, I remember being
excited, like, I think Iremember being excited. I
remember having these plans ofstarting a ukulele band all
these things, right? But I, I doremember, and I liked the detox

(43:04):
that I was sent to, and I wasoriginally excited to go to, it
was described as like, or Ithought it was going to be like
a hippie place, where I couldtake the ukulele, you know, and
do art or whatever, but it endedup being a lot more strict than
the detox that I was at. Andactually, at the detox, I got in

(43:25):
trouble several times, one fornot wearing a bra, and somebody
complained about being able tosee my nipples. People are
always complaining about me.
Jen, one that I was singing tooloud in the shower anyway, but I
do remember, yeah, being alittle thrown off by, you know,
they took all my clothes. Iwasn't allowed to wear shorts

(43:46):
because they were too short. Itwas an all girls treatment
center. I wasn't allowed to havesugar. I wasn't allowed to, you
know, we were only I could callmy parents once every two weeks,
and the therapist would talk tous. I was like, this place is
way too expensive. I can just goto meetings. I because I, in my
heart, knew that I was done andand, yeah, I was I, I was

(44:10):
convinced that I just needed toget a sponsor. They wouldn't
allow me to get a sponsor. Andso I do. The biggest issue that
I remember having at thetreatment center was that it
cost too much and that I didn'tgo to enough meetings, and I
couldn't get a sponsor. What doyou remember mom? Oh, and they

(44:30):
wouldn't let me do my law schoolstuff, so I ended up having to
because originally, thetreatment center that I was
going to go to was one thatwould let me finish out, but, I
mean, maybe that was good. Ireally had time to focus on
myself get a therapist that Iactually was honest with and
could talk to. And, yeah, Ithink that was maybe the first

(44:52):
time that I was really stillenough to be like, what might be
going on with Katie, you know?
And I did. We did end up. Doingsome art therapy there, where I
really got in touch with mycreativity, which I continued
after getting out of treatmentto this day. So yeah, there,
there was a lot of good thingsthat that came out of that

(45:15):
treatment center. But, you know,as per my MO like, I definitely
thought I had a plan, andthought that I knew what was
best.

Jen (45:29):
Well, of course, and so, you know, Barb, what was your
experience with her goingthrough that treatment?

Barb (45:39):
I don't remember. Isn't that funny? That's the most
recent end of it. I am stuck onjust the things we've talked
about here in this gatheringthis afternoon, on the fact that

(46:00):
going back to the principal,calling me in and sitting down
with him, I can hear myselftelling him he, uh, she was
suspended there in high schoolfor drinking during the cross
country practice for 10 days. Ithink it was, it was a pretty
long suspension. And I pointedout to him at the time that my
perception of Katie is thiswould not bother her in the

(46:21):
least. This would be a notch inher belt. And in hearing Kate, I
do think that that's true. I youknow, it was something to hold
up. She was proud of it, Ithink, in some respect. But in
listening to Katie tell herstory today, I would encourage
those involved with youth totake that second breath and

(46:42):
consider whether, for someonestruggling, whether kicking them
off their outlet, the crosscountry team, the soccer team,
the all again, it is the way Iwas raised. Those were all
rewards for doing what's right.
But I think when we're talkingabout the the mental health and
strength of individuals, that tocompletely remove their place of

(47:07):
affirmation had to have itselfhad a significant impact on
Katie and, I presume, others aswell. So that's, that's kind of
where my mind was, but obviouslywe're very, very thankful, I
mean, beyond words, right? Thatthat Katie had the strength to

(47:29):
get through it, that the timingfinally worked, that she did
find out and make relationshipwith a counselor that had made
great inroads and assistedKatie. But I do not pretend that
it is not a substantial part dueto Katie's own strength. Yeah,

Jen (47:52):
absolutely, Oh, absolutely, because it comes from us. And
one of my follow up questions tothat is because you talked
about, you know, going in andout of counseling at a younger
time, and it not going well. SoKatie, you finally found this
counselor that made an impact onyour life that really helped
you. What was the differencebetween this counselor versus

(48:14):
all the other times that you hadtried to

Katie (48:17):
Well, I think she was probably she was the most
expensive one that I'd ever had.
I think,

Jen (48:23):
okay, but mine is the money, no. Well, it's

Katie (48:25):
just funny, right? But mom, you always have said that I
have expensive taste.

Jen (48:32):
Yep. So, so, okay, so we could look for the expensive
counselors. Okay, well,

Katie (48:36):
well, obviously I was ready to talk to somebody, I
reckon, you know, I was in and,yeah, I don't know what the
reasoning was, but I did. Irespected her, you know. And,
yeah, I don't know why I if itwas just that I was a kid back

(49:00):
then, and I just didn't feellike they could ever possibly
understand what I was goingthrough. But yeah, I don't know
Well, I

Jen (49:10):
think he's right, and I think you said something really
important was that you wereready to talk to someone, yeah,
and it just so happened that youfound someone in that space that
you connected and respected inthat time to be able to talk to
them, right? Yeah, so, but atthe end of the day, it was you
were ready, yeah. And so, youknow, fast forward a little bit,

(49:37):
you get out of rehab, and youstart going and trying to figure
out how to live this, this newway of of living right, trying
to figure out how to be clean,sober, whatever you want to call
it, and what has in the lastbecause I'm going to just go

(49:58):
ahead and tell for the audience.
For for time's sake, you havefive years, yeah, which is huge.

Katie (50:04):
Thank you. Amazing. It's incredible. It is

Jen (50:07):
incredible. And just a little side note, just because I
feel like your five years hasnot been very smooth, selling
has not been smooth selling. Andwe don't have to go into too
many details, uh, but I'll justgive you an example. Your your

(50:29):
five year celebration came onOctober 8/10,

Katie (50:37):
well, it was scheduled to be on the second or something,
right after hurricane. Oh, yeah.
So

Jen (50:43):
this is what I'm okay.
Thank

Katie (50:44):
you for the clean date was the day before the
hurricane.

Jen (50:47):
So the your clean date was the day before Hurricane. Helene
came in. So this tells you whenwe were recording this podcast
is just towards the end ofOctober. We're just now starting
to get back, because we weresupposed to have this podcast
recorded like three weeks ago,but we had to postpone it due to

(51:08):
Hurricane Helene and but Ialmost kind of feel like that's
kind of how your recovery hasgone.

Barb (51:18):
It's,

Katie (51:18):
I mean, you know, I in the beginning, there was some
issues just with recovery housesand things, but, yeah, the

Barb (51:26):
singing too loud in the shower, that kind of thing,

Katie (51:29):
exactly. But

Jen (51:30):
she is a good singer, right? Can't give her too much
stuff about that, right? Theyjust didn't recognize the
talent,

Katie (51:41):
right? I mean, you know, you can't force them, you know,
anyway, everybody's got to cometo their own conclusions. But,
yeah, the I had, I don't knowthe PC terminology, I guess, but
I ended up in a relationshipwhere, you know, we were both in

(52:01):
recovery. He relapsed and hitit. And I knew something was up,
but I wasn't quite sure what itwas. And we kept doing this back
and forth thing. And now, youknow, I guess we would call that
sort of psychologically abusive.
And I mean, you know, I'mobviously in recovery, and
probably not the most healthyperson to be in a relationship

(52:25):
with anyway, but it ended upwith, yeah, him kidnapping me a
whole ordeal, yeah, and he's nowin prison for six years, so and
I don't have contact with him,and I don't think that he's
slowing my life. So that's somegrowth, right? We got,

Jen (52:46):
we got some growth there.
And, yeah, right. And the reasonI kind of wanted to talk a
little bit about recovery and itnot always being smooth sailing,
is because recovery, for a lotof people, it's not smooth
sailing. There's a lot thathappens. Life still shows up,
right? And sometimes we're notalways. We don't always have the
tools or the skills we heal overtime, but it doesn't happen from

(53:09):
day one, right? We still have alot that we carry with us into
recovery. We have a lot ofthings wounds that we fix,
because it goes so much beyondthe drugs. And I think that for
so many people out there they,you know, parents, family
members, or other people thatjust don't know, they think that

(53:30):
as soon as you put the drugsdown, then your life is just
supposed to go uphill, andeverything's supposed to be
really great. But it's like itgoes this is so much beyond just
the drugs, but because life isso can be so chaotic, even like
when we're clean and we'rehealing and all of that stuff, I

(53:51):
like to remind people that wecan get through these things and
remain clean on the After. Ithink it's incredible what
you've been through in yourrecovery and actually stayed
clean, because there's a wholelot people that have gone
through a whole lot less thatuse that as an excuse, right?
And you know, I'll be like, I'lltalk to parents, because that's

(54:16):
kind of what I do for a living.
And they're like, well, we don'twant to, like, rock the boat, or
we don't want them to feel likethey kind of still want to walk
on eggshells where they're like,Oh, well, we're worried that,
like, this person is going tomake them use and I was like,
listen, let me tell yousomething. It's up to us on

(54:39):
whether or not we decide we canget through things, and we have
to learn how to get throughthings, hard things, and and
come out the other side clean,because it's this is, you know,
we have to face our triggers. Wecan't walk on eggshells. We have
to learn how to live our lives.
And life shows up so bar. I wantto kind of throw that to you, is

(55:00):
you've seen Katie go throughsome things during her recovery
that she has stayed cleanthrough. But what's been your
experience watching her gothrough tough things

Barb (55:12):
that and then tying also back to something else you said
when Katie first finishedrecovery, I will be very honest
I expected when I did what? Whenyou finished rehab, rehab,
rehab. Sorry,

Jen (55:30):
you're done with recovery.

Barb (55:31):
I'm sorry. I'm sorry. That was my ignorance, right? When
she finished rehab, when she gotout of rehab, I thought she
would become the Katie that wehad expected her to be, right,
that that she would become moremainstream, that that whole
formula thing that I'm talkingabout

Katie (55:52):
right, you guys room for a surprise. So

Barb (55:57):
after about the first year of recovery, and her language
didn't change, and she got anumber of tattoos that are, you
know, visible here, even on thison particularly on her left
hand, and those types of things.
And I that my first thought was,okay, when? When is she going to
be like me?

Jen (56:18):
She's going to fit into the mold that I feel like I wanted
her to fit into when she dresseddown that correct,

Barb (56:25):
right? And that is where I started this by saying so I go
back to the beginning of this.
That is when my depth grew,because she showed me she wasn't
that mold, right? She She didn'tfit in that mold. Was never a
part of that mold. But mom, I ama terrific, wonderful person

(56:49):
with great things, and as Isaid, I have learned so much in
watching katie, as well asexperiencing Katie, because she
is an experiential thing tobehold, that I am so glad that
she stayed authentic, that shefigured out or began expressing

(57:10):
who she is, so that now I have arelationship with Katie as she
wants to be, and I think iscalled to be and that has the
enrichment is priceless. I mean,literally.

Jen (57:27):
You know, when I what I tell some people is, it's such
an amazing thing to watch yourkids grow up. It's an even
better thing to watch yourparents grow up. And I think I
think through this, because Ithink my mom has had a very
similar experience as well. Ifof going this helped her really

(57:49):
get, I think, in touch withherself and start understanding
maybe some of the belief systemsthat we have around the kids and
what we think they should beWhen, when, you know,
especially, like for someonethat's like, I'm just me, and
I'm just trying to figure out,and I just want to be me, right?
And Katie's like, I just want tobe me. So, you know, instead of

(58:12):
her fitting into, you know, yourmold, instead you got the best
version of your daughter, whichis just her, and that might,
that may be the person thatdecides one day that she's just
gonna, like, shave her head off,or, you know, like, cut off all
her hair, or just add moreinteresting tattoos to her body.

(58:37):
And you know, we love that. Welove watching people grow into
themselves and who they arereally meant to be,

Katie (58:47):
or try to launch another business venture, right? Same
time, right?

Barb (58:55):
I know okay, what, what I know and feel is that when I am
with Katie now, just the, justeven the vibe in the room is so
much she has, I believe that shehas accepted who she is, right?
So the stress, where there usedto be stress, feels so much

(59:15):
different now. It just Yeah,it's it's palpable, yeah,

Jen (59:20):
yeah. And so this is one, I guess, my final question, one of
my final questions, and I'll askeach of you separately. But for
Katie, um, what would you say tomaybe some of the parents or the
family members that are outthere listening to this right
now, what would be like a pieceof advice you would give them.

(59:42):
Oh my

Katie (59:42):
gosh, that's so huge.
Well, I mean, yeah, withoutknowing where some listeners
might be coming from, I mean,what I wanted to say, and I know
we're running on time, was justthe cool things that me and my
mom have. Gotten to do togethersince, I guess her wanting to be
a part of my life as I am, likewith us, with her coming to

(01:00:10):
pride and doing the tent withme. Yeah, and you know what I
mean, and I do think I probablydid go to law school in an
effort to understand her better,to want to be like her, you
know. And so I just, yeah,appreciate being able to like,
share with her in somethingwhere I'm allowed to be myself,

(01:00:34):
I guess. And so I don't knowwhat advice somebody can take
from that, but the joy that I'veexperienced is,

Jen (01:00:44):
you know, right? Maybe something along the lines of,
allow them to figure out whothey are and and be a part of
who they are, not who you right.
Really want them to be right?
Yeah, something like that. Andso Barb, I'll ask the same
question of you. So for the formy audience, for the families

(01:01:08):
out there listening, what wouldbe the biggest piece of advice
you could give someone

Barb (01:01:16):
to give grace? Is the way I would word it, that a lot of
perceptions on both my part andKatie's part were wrong. Katie
commented earlier that her dadand I told her that her
perceptions were wrong. But asyou have said, Jen, perceptions

(01:01:38):
are right there that person'sreality, and I think that we had
been so our perceptions areperceived by the mass to be
correct more often than not. Sothat we came to believe we own

(01:02:00):
the perception, if that makessense, yes. And so my advice
would be, number one, if someonehas a different perception, that
doesn't mean it's wrong, right?
It's a different perception.
Number two, if you're facingsomeone who has a different
perception, give them grace withit. Don't cast judgment as a
result of that. Don't, don't be,you know, writing them off, or

(01:02:22):
assuming worst case scenario,assuming that they have and I
think Katie may have experiencedpart of this, like, say,
referencing her dad asking ifshe'd had a good run. And Katie
believed that was pressureright, to try to get ahead of
that, and don't presume thatthere's an ill intent or a
controlling intent in whatever'shappening, and to pause, maybe

(01:02:48):
pause is the best thing. Pauseand give grace to allow room for
the other story to take root andgrow, and then you've got a full
tree to work with, and then it'sawesome.

Jen (01:03:02):
Yeah, I, you know, I'll give you, I'll share with y'all,
a little story that I have withmy mom about that, that that
type of perception. Because evenin recovery with years clean, I
still was really challengedwhen, like, I found myself, like
I was working with my mom, and Iwas going through like, a
really, really difficult,emotional time with her. I,
like, a lot of stuff was comingup, a lot of resentments, a lot

(01:03:25):
of anger. And this was with,like, over a decade clean at
this time. And I remember therewas this one day where she was,
I was mad at her for something,and she just looked at me, and
she's like, I believe in you.
Oh, and I found that to be myperception at that time. It was
so condescending. I remember Ihad a water bottle in my hand.

(01:03:48):
It was like a metal waterbottle, and I just chucked it
in, like the side of thebuilding, or whatever. I was so
mad, and I ran away, and I waslike in tears, all because I
have my mom yelling at me,going, I believe in you. Because
it was like, That pressure,right? I was like, you don't
obviously, because, but it's,it's the perception, like, you

(01:04:10):
know, someone says something,and this is where it's like, we
get to kind of come together,and now that we're beyond that,
right? We get to kind of sit andgo and have the grace to
understand each other'sperceptions and be able to talk
it through and be able to say,this is what I hear, or this is

(01:04:32):
what I understand based on this,and that's how we have been able
to heal and grow from ourrelationship, but, but the truth
is, is there was nothing thatshe could have done at that
time. Like I had to kind of gooff on my own and go figure out,
why was I perceiving it in thatway, or why was I seeing that as
pressure, or why was I likemisunderstanding? I had to go

(01:04:55):
figure that out, and then Icould come back to her and. Be
like, Okay, this is what'sreally going on. And so there's
this conversation. And what Ilike to invite for for
especially for family membersthat are in the same situation
of what you guys, you know aregoing through, is have these
conversations with one another.

(01:05:18):
Be willing to, like, be open andvulnerable about the experiences
and how you experience eachother, and what's really going
on, and how do you startnavigating some of these
challenging conversations aboutwhen you're a kid and you have
your kid perception, and then,like, when you're a parent,

(01:05:39):
right? Because it's like I hadno idea what was happening with
my mom, and what my mom wasgoing through when I was a kid,
and some of the decisions thatshe made when I perceived them
in a certain way, what was goingon because I was a kid, so I
didn't have all of theinformation that the adults do,
right? So now that we're adults,we get to sit and have some of

(01:06:03):
those kinds of conversations.
And then what I see, and I hearfrom you guys, is that y'all are
embarking a lot on the thatjourney where, you know, Barb,
you get to go and do somethingreally fun, like go to the Pride
festival with your daughter andlearn all sorts of new things,
which we won't go into now, youknow, I get to learn, yeah, we

(01:06:24):
get to see just a wholedifferent side and just embrace
it all. And I think it'smagical. So is there anything
else before we before we signoff, that you guys want to add
to this conversation? Yeah, justthat

Katie (01:06:44):
I'm so grateful, I guess, that yeah, that you guys didn't
give up on me. Yeah,

Jen (01:06:53):
yeah. Barb, any last, final words, nope, nope, good. I think
you said a lot, and I justreally want to thank you guys
both for being willing. It canbe really challenging for me to
find people that are willing tokind of come on and talk
publicly about theirexperiences, because this is a
really challenging topic, andit's a very vulnerable topic. So

(01:07:17):
I really want to thank you guysfor coming on and being so open
and vulnerable today.

Barb (01:07:23):
So we do appreciate the opportunity. Yeah, each time I
can learn more about Katie'sperspective is a good time.

Jen (01:07:31):
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. And thank you for
listening to this podcast. Ifyou want to listen to more or
find more information out aboutthis podcast and more of what I
do to help families. You can gocheck out my page at unbreakable
boundaries podcast.com it's fullof other great podcasts, just
like this, one and other greatresources to look through, and
please remember to share thispodcast with others you never

(01:07:53):
know who may need to hear this.
People are often hiding theirbattles in this arena, and
sharing is a great way toprovide this valuable resource
to a person you may not evenknow who needs it. And don't
forget, there is always hope,even when things seem the most
hopeless. Yeah.