E104 - Trust and Communication With Jennifer Lacy - The Uncommon Communicator

Episode Transcript
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Jennifer Lacy (00:00):
You want to talk ?
Right down to us and a languagethat everybody here can easily
understand.
What we got here is a failureto communicate.

The UnCommon Communicat (00:24):
Welcome to the Uncommon Communicator
Podcast, where we bringenlightenment to the topic of
communication.
I'm so excited today to haveagain on the show Ms Jennifer
Lacey, known as the famous lady.
She did not give her name toherself.
Now a little bit about Jen.
She's a Texas native with abackground in teaching, an
author, an illustrator andco-host of the no BS.

(00:46):
With Jen and Jess, I thinkyou're the host because you're
talking.
You are a conference speaker.
This is huge and I saw this onLinkedIn.
Recipient of the DallasBusiness Journal, 2023 Woman of
the Year and Business Award.
That's awesome, thank you.
And for the last 20 years youhave worked for Robbins and
Morton as a lean practice leader.
Jen Jennifer, welcome to theshow.

Thank you very much.
I'm excited to be here.

The UnCommon Communicator (01:11):
Well, we are going to touch again on
some more topics.
I think last time it turnedinto soft skills.
I don't think that'snecessarily probably even your
best trait, but you're so goodat it, like there's so many
other things that you build andbuild and trust.
So there's a couple of things Iwanted to jump into Now.
You are also co-author of thisbook right here Lean and Love

(01:33):
with Mr Jesse.
Something Hernandez, yes, doyou want to talk about how this
whole book of Lean and Love cameabout?
Real quick, just kind of readsome of this.

I will try.
Jesse does a better job, but Iwill absolutely try.
So he and I crossed paths.
We collided on some Lean stuff.
We were on a planning committeefor a Congress for LCI, and me
not willing to sit back and justwatch what's going on.
I went up and we had somereally intense conversations and
then, following that, hereached out and said, hey, I've

(02:07):
got this idea, have theseletters and I want to do a live
stream and get people, you know,kind of talk about some of this
stuff that nobody likes to talkabout, and I want to do it with
you.
And so we kind of had moreconversations, had some
brainstorming, and then we dovein, did them via live stream,
and then at the end, a couple ofthings happened.
Number one is we got a lot ofpeople that jumped in and really

(02:30):
wanted to be a part of thesevulnerable kind of uncomfortable
things that we were able tohelp facilitate pretty well.
And then people were like weneed more of these type of
conversations.
So that's one thing thathappened, and the other is that
when we finished with lots andlots of hours of live stream I'm
sure you know about that thatpeople were like we just like we
would love a CliffsNotesversion.

(02:51):
And then Jesse said oh, noproblem, we'll just edit down
and go through the all thescripts and all that and you
know his patience is about thissmall and so he started that.
He went oh, this isn't going towork.
And so he said, hey, like, whatare your thoughts on?
Like putting all this in a book?
And so we did the live streamsfirst, and all of a sudden
there's like, oh, like, let'swrite a book and put it all

(03:13):
together.
And so, also based on the needfor people to want more of these
conversations, we launched NoBSwith Gen Jess platform.
So all of that came from likejust starting with that
conversation.

The UnCommon Communicato (03:26):
That's ridiculous.

And then you're also at what anniversary right
now for that, oh my gosh thismonth it's December this month
for two years, where we launchedin every other Saturday morning
we do live streams arounduncomfortable conversations, and
at first it was a little bitgeared towards like just
construction, because that's weboth are in construction in In

(03:47):
the lean space.
But we realized, and it didn'ttake as long, that half of our,
our audience, are not even inconstruction, and so we realized
that things we're talking aboutare not just limited to the
construction industry, but theyare like world issues and they
are things that every humanbeing that wakes up every day
Runs into these type of dilemmasand kind of sometimes these

(04:09):
frustrations.
And so, two years this month,we will, uh, people keep showing
up and so we keep getting totalk about these things.

It's amazing how we think
construction's in this bubbleand there's a bubble of
construction, but it's.
The problems we face are notunique to the rest of the world,
especially in Even even infinding people to do work, you
know, finding constructionworkers Everybody's dealing with
some kind of mental, you knowhealth issue, which is really

(04:39):
some of the things that we touchon a lot in the nobius tribe,
as well as this wholeVulnerability word that you've
made me stay out loud.
You know, absolutely new.
I keep I think jesse gave me apass.
I finally figured it out and ifvulnerability is only sharing
the stupid things that I've done, so others can get better.
That's a level of vulnerabilityI'm willing to accept that one.

(05:02):
I'll take that one, okay.

I'll start started there.
I'm more getting more in thisshow.
I.

Uh oh , I didn't like saying the word
or talking about it and you know, but we're seeing a movement,
even within my own company, andI think that you guys are on the
leading edge of it.
You were talking about itbefore.
It was cool.
Really, now, if it's hittingmainstream, hitting companies
that you personally haven'ttouched, where we're talking
about it, then it's reallyhitting something that has found

(05:30):
a nerve and that nerve Is rawand it needs healing.
Then the only way to heal it isto really talk about it.
So those are one of the thingsthat you know, you're really
bringing a light to the industryin that and making it Okay,
which one of the things that Ireally admire about you is.
I think we're similar in how wehave stuffed our feelings away,
how we shield.

(05:50):
That's probably one of my bestthings that I do is guard those
Feelings.
But you've been able to go pastthat and I mean you've had, you
know, very, you know difficulttimes in your life growing up,
but how have you really?
What was the turning point,what was your moment of
enlightenment to be able to goto this point of vulnerability?

Well, um, I there's probably multiple, but
let's so, historically, yeah,and I'm really, I've been really
really good at the protection.
So you call it shield, I callit protection, but it's that
armor that, because of ourexperiences, because of our
trauma, because of all but thehurt, all the things in our
lives that you know have we'veallowed penetrate, we've

(06:29):
realized like we can controlthat by just not letting things
penetrate and you know, and thatcan keep us from again getting
hurt, things, bad thingshappening to us, but it also
keeps everything else out andand so, and we can focus, we can
be successful, we can be highperforming and and and that's
great and we get lots ofaccolades for that.

(06:49):
But we're also keeping a lot ofgood things out and and so I'm
gonna own this, like I mean,within the last three or four
years.
Uh, you know it, as theseconversations are happening, as
even the stuff that Jesse and Ihave done together, like I
realized, like there are a lotof people out there that live in

(07:10):
that mode, that protection mode, and that I've got to protect
what's inside of me and that'sokay at the detriment of what's
outside of me, and as a motherof two Teenage girls right now,
like you know, one's almost ateenager, the other one's 15.
Like if I, if I show up that way, both places at human, at work,
like how I'm, how, how am Isetting a good example for them?

(07:33):
Right, and so, as a mother,like you want to be protective
and you want to make sure thatyou're helping them be good
humans, but like I need them tobe.
Also, we understand theimportance of you know being,
you know being real, in thatit's okay to hurt and it's okay
to fail and it's okay to learnand it's okay to like not be
okay.
And if they don't see that inme, how could they possibly be

(07:56):
able to show that to otherpeople?
So that's been I mean, all ofthat has happened over the
course, but like that's adriving point as to when I show
up and a lot of my stuff's onthe socials, so a lot of my
stuff's out there and anyone canwatch it, including my
daughters.
And so what am I doing to beable to be the, to exhibiting

(08:16):
the behaviors that that I wantto make sure I can see in them?

So your moment of enlightenment
came in realizing that you alsoneed to model it for your
children, so you, they, don'thave to go through 20, 30 years
of Of shielding is that?
Is that right?

Yes, yes, and it's, and it's not always easy,
and there's a lot of tears andthere's some screaming and
there's some yell.
I mean like that's parenting,but it's also within the end.
Are they in a place to where,like it's okay to hurt, it's
okay to fail, it's okay to makea mistake, like the world's not
going to come crashing down?
Because I mean, like we keep,we shield ourselves, you know to

(08:55):
, to not make mistakes, to haveall the answers, and Like it's
okay for me to go?
I don't know that like let'slook it up, let's figure it out.
There's not a lot of peoplethat figure that out early.

Right , yeah, and then that's what I
fear I'm on that path towardswhere I'm going to figure it all
out when I'm 90, right, when Itake my last breath, maybe 100.
I don't know.
I should eat better to livethat long.
But you're right, you want tofigure them out earlier.
I know for us, especially now,because this really does tie to
Uh, the no BS tribe and thisidea of dealing with

(09:28):
vulnerability, is our family, uh, as a history, does not talk
about grieving very well, wewere terrible at it and and I
looked through this process hererecently we recently had to put
our dog down, which was firstone ever, the hardest thing any
human could ever do to make thatdecision, and you don't realize
the connection that you makewith that.
But having to now deal withthose emotions that I didn't

(09:51):
expect and and having to try tomodel it to my children, who I
haven't shown even how I grievedfor my dad Uh was one was not
at all and then for my mom, Ilost it like I could not even,
you know, communicate or talkthrough it.
Then now I've got McGee to talkabout, and so those are all
those steps, those processes,but although those are all, come
into the idea of vulnerability,like how much it's stuffing.

(10:13):
It was so much easier.

But I find our industry does that, like our
industry does that, like I don'tknow why.
We think like we're dealingwith trauma or we're dealing
with grief, and we then we go towork, and how do we not equate
that every other human beingthat we look at every day and
engage with could also bedealing with With those exact
things?

Yeah, that's so true, that's so true,
so moving.
So one thing I want to do Iwant to talk a little bit about
the book and the reason.
Of course, you're here to talkabout communication.
This is what the podcast is allabout, but everything kind of
weaves into it, uh, in some way.
But when I look through thebook, lean in love.
Beautiful illustrations in hereas well.
You are the illustrator of that.

(10:54):
When I, when I read through itand I I read the gen comments, I
did, I'll tell you this is howI dissected this book.
Like I spoke with Jesse andI've I read through his book of
stories, which was justBrilliantly, brilliantly put
together, his becoming thepromise that you're intended to
be.
But this one here Just kind ofto understand gen a little bit,

(11:15):
and so I went to your comments,read through them.
What are they always about?
They're about communication,like it's communicating, and
trust and there's so many thingsthat that come out from From
what you present.
But this is an interestingstory here and Well, quick
format for our readers.
First off, as you talked about,this was a live stream, so you

(11:35):
took the live stream notes,comments, questions, threw them
into a book.
There were five things.
It's really the five s loveletters.
So you took five s scene,turned it into these love
letters and this is how you canwork through relationships and
communication, stuff like that.
So in taking that, goingthrough those steps, you there's
just blurbs, here's quotes likehere's some great advice,
here's a question, here's sometips and stuff like that.

(11:57):
But here's a story that youshared.
You can't rush communication.
I have two girls.
One is really good at math.
She is walking me through herdivision problem.
She needs help.
Something is not jiving.
I started to tell her what theproblem was and she said no, mom
, let me walk through theprocess.
As she was walking me throughit, she saw that she saw where

(12:18):
she hadn't subtracted right.
She needed to fix it herself tolearn.

It does that.
That's one example of athousand of and I've had this
conversation recently with afriend is that, like we want to
make our children's lives betterand we've experienced and we've
done some things that welearned from.
We can help them, but how didwe learn?
We learned by not havingsomeone help us and by having to

(12:54):
figure it out.
Our automatic response is likewe can fix it, we have the
solution.
We have a whole other thingthat Jesse and I do with
emotional bungee jumpers thatit's like I need to allow you to
keep your problem.
It is not my job to take yourproblem away.
Let me ask questions that helpyou be able to get where you

(13:16):
need to be.
It's a prime example of that ofnot being the person to jump in
and fix it, because how wouldthat help her?

Yeah, and we're driven by it.
It's almost super cool, right?
If you were extreme one way,then you want to go and solve
the problems, and I think Jessecoined the term shanking.
What is it A?
solution shanking A solution.
Shanking and that seems theeasiest solution and it's not.
And I think that's been one ofthe biggest challenges for me is

(13:46):
to let people walk it throughand learn it themselves.
They're going to learn itdeeper and better and I think
that what a great example,however much our kids teach us
that.
But that was such a greatexample of she stopped you.
If she didn't stop you, youwere going to give her the
answer and she never would havesolved it on her own.
And that multiplied a billiontimes into everything we do at

(14:11):
work.
In fact, for me, I've taken alot of that and when people come
to me with problems, I used tojust give out the answers Go do
this and boom, we're on, and Idon't anymore.
I ask them first and what'samazing is most of the time high
percentage they already havethe answer.
They're coming to you, ask youa question, they already have
the answer.
Well, why don't you give meyour answer?
And then we can just cut to thequick and then they own it.

(14:34):
But I thought what a greatexample.
But I love that you can't rushcommunication, because for me
I'm always like all right, Iknow what the next steps are
let's just get to them, let'smove on.
But you can't.
You have to let it grow.
And that was such a great storyillustrating that it had the
word communication, and so I hadto jump to that one.

No, that's it Well, and it just want to add to
that and just saying I havethis conversation.
A lot is like we're busy, ourwords are busy, we're always
like in this mode of like youknow what's next and all the
things we're trying to cram intoour day, and that busyness
makes us rush communicationbecause we were trying, we're

(15:12):
not thinking about the moment,we're not thinking about the
person in front of us, we're notthinking about the issue, we're
thinking about what's next andlike and that that example it
like hit, it hit straight on.
Like it's not about what I'mtrying to hurry up and get to
after she's done with herhomework, it's what are we doing
right now, in this moment.
And like she like called me out, like it's not what it was.

Right , right, and what a life lesson
for all of us to learn.
That's just, that was justbrilliant.
I love, love that.
There's another one, of courseit's titled keep communicating.
Of course I gravitated towardsthat one, but here's another
quote from Jen.
There are different ways tocommunicate.
Nonverbal communication is oneexample.
Being clear with what we arethinking and feeling is critical

(15:55):
in guarding against sendingmixed signals.
Sometimes even being able tosay I need to step away or I
need some time can save the20,000 scenarios we make up in
our heads from happening.
Walking away could dissolve thesituation or feel it.

OK.
So there's a lot.
There's a lot package to that,that, that chunk of words right
there.
And so part it's two things,it's a couple of things.
I think it's more than a coupleof things, but we'll talk about
a couple of things.
Number one is those scenarioswe make up in our head, the what
ifs, like based on just ourexperience and the things we've
done.
It's so easy to jump to thingsthat have never happened and

(16:39):
that may never happen.
But the, the, those what ifskeep us from making progress and
those what ifs keep us frombeing able to see, like, the
potential of what somethingcould be.
And so an example of this andit's it's one specifically is I
love to take notes, like that ismy way to capture things, but

(17:01):
also to get things out of myhead so I can keep adding more
things into my head.
So I love taking notes and Itake notes pretty much in every
conversation or if I have athought or an idea.
I'm like I got to write thatdown because I don't want to
lose it.
And I was having a conversationwith Jesse talking about how
I'm struggling with reflectionand things like that, and I I
struggle with reflection becauseI have to stop and have to like
not be moving to be able toreflect, which is like crazy.

(17:24):
And so we were having thisconversation and so he's like,
well, you know what do you do?
He journals, you know.
And so I had tried some otherthings to no avail, but they did
not work.
And so I said, okay, you knowwhat, I'm just going to walk
because I enjoy walking.
I'm going to use that walkingtime as reflection time.
And for me it's like, okay, ifI'm going to do that, then I'm

(17:46):
not taking any notepads, I'm nottaking any earbuds, I'm not
taking any phone.
I'm going to use that asreflection time.
And what I realized in that timeis that I had an idea and I
didn't like and I was like, ohmy gosh, I've got to write this
down.
I didn't have anything.
It's like I kept thinking andthat idea grew and grew and grew

(18:07):
, and then another idea came.
That came from that, anothergood idea came from that, and it
got so big by the time Ifinished walking that my
reflection like it hit me in myface.
Trevor, you would have nevergot there if you stopped and
wrote down that very first thing.
And so to me it's the inabilitysometimes to allow ourselves to

(18:28):
disconnect and walk away andget out of the middle of the
chaos so that we can identify orsee something that maybe you
know would have never happened.

Yeah.
So you bring up, I think, a keypoint in any communication and
really any collaboration, anybattle, because I think we go
into battle mode and when we'rein battle mode we're going to
hit that aggressively until weget our point and get out.
But the idea that that's noteffective in communication and I
think that's one of the easiestthing for people to do is to

(19:02):
take a breath and walk away,take time to collect your
thoughts at a high level.
Now you're going, you know, alittle bit deeper in that you're
saying you do that and then nowyou're able to go yourself into
a better understanding of itthat you never would have got to
before.
So there's so much and therewas a lot to unpack in that one.
And in fact I was looking atthat thinking, man, this is

(19:24):
probably three or four bulletpoints that were thrown out in a
, you know, in a quote.
And then it's like all right,let's move on.
And I'm like where am I goingto?
Let us?

know, Can I add one more?
One more example from justunpackaging from that.
That section is going back tomy daughter.
Is she over things?
And she escalates.
And she, you know, her anxietyskyrockets and so she then
becomes worst case scenario.
And what do you do as a parentwhen your child is spiraling or
your child is not doing well?

(19:53):
You want to fix it, you want tofix it and I and in those
moments, like I realized, I justwant to get to the solution, I
want to get to where she'sbetter, and I didn't nothing but
exacerbate it.
And like it took more and moretimes of I'm fueling it, I'm
fueling it, I'm fueling it, butI, but I can fix it.
I can fix it because I can fixthings to like that was not the

(20:17):
way to do it and like I had toremove myself and I had to allow
her to get to a place where shecould even receive Right.
And we don't think about thatwhen we're interacting with
people.

The other thing, too is no, I mean
you know your daughter, likeyou're learning her still I mean
there, she's still going tocontinue to evolve but
understanding people as well too, knowing that some need to be
in that battle.
Other people need that time toyou know, exchange.
One thing that I've realized isthat I think out loud, and
that's good and bad, and I foundlike I have frustrated some

(20:51):
people by just shooting ideasout there and you know, I'm like
here's an idea, here's an idea,and he's like slow it down,
Like he wanted to process eachof them.
So we had a really great moment, learning moment for me to
learn him a little bit.
But the thing I learned aboutmyself is that isn't effective
for this individual for sure.
So I have to know how toregulate that and change my

(21:12):
style in doing that.
And this is kind of a sidebaron that, jesse.
I asked Jesse for some feedbackon our interview.
I'm like give me what, what?
Give me some little bit offeedback.
And he's loves giving feedback,which only if you ask right,
I'm going to change.
But what I found is I clarifymy questions a lot, like,
instead of just asking aquestion, I just clarified and I
really.
I caught myself the other daydoing it because I don't know

(21:36):
what I'm going to ask it until Ihave processed it out loud.
So that's, that's something Igot to work on, Because I can't
for for the most part, me alwaysclarifying and then getting to
the question.
I should be getting better atpractice in my head for other
people who don't respond well tothat.
So it's just all that.
It's just an interestingprocess on on how to deal with

(21:59):
all of that.

Well, that came from feedback too, which is is
super important.
We know that communication,that having that reciprocal
conversation and having someoneprovide feedback and being in a
place of trust where you couldknow that the person that's
telling you that is coming froma good place and that they are
you know they're.
They're one of those peoplethat you know are trying to help
you Like that's a big deal.

Well, as we talked about even last
weekend in the live stream.
One thing that, just anotherrevelation for me is I realized
that I, you know I'm my ownworst critic and that's one
reason I haven't been invitingin other people, because I'm my
own worst critic.
Like, why do I need you tocriticize me?
And it's not feedback, is notcriticism.
So that allowing in of peopleto you know, help, guide me and

(22:45):
help me get better has all beendriven off of that issue of
trust.
Do I trust them enough?
But also, for me, taking alittle bit step deeper is to not
let people's opinions, thoughts, whatever, affect me, like I'm
going to take all I can but I'mnot going to let it put me in a
bunker, in a bad mood oranything.
That mindset alone has allowedme to even get even more

(23:08):
feedback, because before to me,it was always criticism, because
I was criticizing myself.

Well, it's it's it's the best response.
It doesn't matter how horriblethe that you feel from the, from
the feedback, is.
Thank you, and it's so simple.
But, like, as soon as that'sthe the response, it keeps the
door open for more.

Yes.

Whether you like , I mean whether you go to them
again later or not, but as soonas and there's so many people
and I'm going to tell you theydo this and it's not even I
don't even think it's conscious,I think it's subconsciously
that when someone says somethingto you or somebody gives you
feedback, your responses todefend it and it's not.
It's like you're doing itbecause you're in protection

(23:54):
mode and we just talked.
We talked about that.
You're in protection mode,you're trying to protect
yourself, but, like then, whydid you ask?

Yeah, and that's that's in a, in a
situation where you're askingand getting defensive and you're
in, I would say, even a littlebit level of trust with somebody
, even then we become different.
And the one thing I learnedfrom Jaco Wilnick is he talks
about how, when somebody's likecriticizing, you hear him in the
background or you just hearsomebody just talking bad stuff

(24:21):
about you that there's always agrain of truth in there that we
need to accept.
And once that hit my mind and Ithought, okay, there is a grain
of truth, okay, yeah, you'reright, I do need to work on that
.
Instead of letting that angerme, upset me or hate that person
, it's like, all right, there'sa grain and there always is.
There always is a grain oftruth.

(24:42):
Now, if they may be slanted,maybe they're just miserable
people, but there's a grain oftruth in there and if you can
take that, then you becomebetter by learning from that and
what I've realized.

what's helped me when I get feedback, good or
bad, or even when it's somethingthat, like before, would really
hurt my feelings that ifsomeone's saying it, they
believe it.

Yes.

And they, in my opinion, I can say they're wrong
.
But if they believe it and it'swhat they feel, is it wrong?

Right .
But the other thing and I'vegiven a little bit, I'm trying
to give a little bit more grace,in that I tend to.
I'll sometimes say things thatI don't mean either, and so I
want to.
That's why remaining calm isthe best thing to do, to ask a
clarifying question and thenallow that person to say well,
that's really not, I didn'tintend it that way,

(25:35):
Understanding that yourintention still hurt, and so you
have to be able to pull thatback.
But the idea is, are those theright words that you chose to
use and give an opportunity forthat to maybe steer a different
way?
So there's another quote fromthe book.
There's another.
I don't know if it was Jen ornot, so if they're not Mark, Jen
or Jess, who's writing thisstuff?

It's normally.
Usually the copy isconversational and so it's not
specific, so it could it couldbe in any way.

Well, this one really connected with
me because in trying to find outwhat, what, what is my purpose
Like, what is the uncommoncommunicator purpose?
To bring enlightenment to thetopic of communication.
But what's the deeper purposeof that?
And I have really, probably inthe last six months, realized
that I want to help give peoplea voice and I can do that
through learning communicationskills, through learning

(26:25):
techniques, through learning howto be heard is going to elevate
you.
So that has become my, my kindof underlining theme.
I haven't told this to anyonebefore, but that's what I'm
working on and this is what yousaid on.
Let's see, I'm not pagenumbered, the page number heart.
People just want to matter.

Yes, oh yes.
That is like that's burning mysoul.

They want to be heard and that's why
I'm like bam, this is exactly it.
I need to hear Jen's take onthat, because they they want to
matter, but they also to beheard.
You got to speak and, yes,there's a lot of communication
nonverbally, but you need tospeak, you need to be heard.
This is what I was.
You said they want to berespected.

(27:11):
When we go into any interactionand put people first, it will
change the way we approach theconversation.
We're focusing on personalrelationships.
Now we save them.
How or I'm sorry, how we savethem, how we stay in them, how
we value them, how we evaluatethem and how to keep them viable

(27:31):
.
It is no different in theworkspace.
People want their work tomatter, to make a difference.
Tell me more about that.

Yes.
So my story behind this is whenwe think about when I'm going
to use construction, becausethat's the space for you.
When we think aboutconstruction, I don't know many
people and I'm not sayingthere's not any, but I don't
know many people that wake up inthe morning and they go.
You know what?
I want?
To get hurt today.
I want to get hurt so bad thatit impacts the financial, it has

(28:03):
a financial impact on my family.
I want to.
I want to go and I want toscrew up something so bad that I
can lose my job and that Icould hurt somebody else.
I want to go, show up and getan argument with someone because
I know I'm right that it willsever a relationship.
I don't know many people thatwake up and think that way.

(28:25):
And so, when we look at it fromthat context, people come into
an environment, a culture, aninteraction and something,
whether it's emotional or youknow something.
They've got some.
There's got some emotionalbaggage that they're bringing in
, that they're already in thisdefensive mode.
Something happens and, like,the way we react and the way we

(28:46):
respond to things is soimportant.
But not only that whatenvironment and what culture are
we creating when these peoplecome in, that and my, my, my
visual is always like we don'thave people that come into our
construction site and they getto the gate and they take their
human hat off and they put theirhard hat on and they come in
and then they're just there toproduce outcomes all day long

(29:10):
and that humaneness just doesn'tplay into anything.
And then they get to go backthrough the gate, put their
human hat back on and go home.
Like those things don't stayinside and outside the gate,
like they're bringing all thewhatever the things are
happening at home, their issues,any, any health problems,
anything going on there, thatall comes with them.
And then when they're at workand they've had a big fight or

(29:33):
something, somebody got hurt oryou know something went wrong
and they're now, they're goingto have to work later or
whatever, they're not going tojust be able to shut that down
when they walk back out of thegate.
And so when I say people justwant to matter, like all of them
, the whole human, they want tomatter, not just they want to
make money and they want to makesure their family's okay.
And so when we can look at thatwhole human and that when

(29:57):
they're at work, do we onlyfocus on the outcomes they
produce or do we focus on theperson?
And I think, historically,because it's construction and
because the outcomes pay thebills and the outcomes are how
we make money and how we canjudge things and how we can have
metrics and all these thingsthat the outcomes are easy to be

(30:18):
the focus, but, like, if we'renot shifting our attention and
our engagement and the thingsthat are important to us into
that human part, to the personthat's doing the work, like
we're failing.
We're failing ourselves, we'refailing our companies, we're
failing the people that we workwith, because they don't need to
think that that's the way theworld works, like they are human

(30:39):
beings first.
And if we focus on that, I'veexperienced and when I see that
environment put in place, theydo better work.
They get excited about helpingother people and having, like
you said it earlier, they getexcited about sharing and
something they see or somethingthat they saw that they're a
little worried about.
Like for us having thatplatform to be able to go.

(31:04):
I don't think that's right orthis may not be safe, like when
you've created something towhere it's okay to care about
the person first.
It is a game changer.

And big time and looking at it at
kind of two levels here too.
First off, caring about themand who they are, just
acknowledging that.
That's item number one.
Just even hey, jose, how's itgoing today?
That is the first step inknowing everybody on your job,
knowing everybody that they'rehuman, they're there, they have

(31:35):
stuff going on.
I had a carpenter on my jobrecently.
I knew about.
His son came and worked for us.
He joined the Marines.
During that timeframe he workedthere with us.
I learned about his other kidsand so you learn about all of
that factor.
And he was probably one of themost productive people that I've
had on my job sites and woulddo anything Like well outside of

(31:55):
what would just be his definedscope of drywall studs and
framing stuff like that.
But that's all part of buildingthat relationship.
But the other side of that sothat's side number one
acknowledgement but the otherpart is really about being heard
and drawing that out and that'swhat I love about that.

(32:16):
And again, this is my passionnow is knowing how much is left
on the table, because for tworeasons we don't ask.
So you gotta ask.
It's gotta start withleadership.
Leadership has to ask, but alsothey have to be given back to
that, your point of making thatspace open enough for them to
give their opinion.
And that's a tough one to do insome situations because as a

(32:37):
leader those are hard to manageand I'm finding some people
don't have that skill set to beable to say no, like hey, thank
you for sharing that.
But in your mind you're likethat's the worst idea I've ever
heard.
But you have to let them havethat idea, because two ideas
later they're gonna come up withthis huge time saving effort
but all of that.
Those are the part of beingheard, but the biggest part is

(33:01):
the fact that you acknowledgedit.

When you've released control of the
conversation and to me, like welove to have the agenda and
everything set and this iswhat's gonna happen and I'm
gonna make sure we're stay ontime and you are controlling the
conversation.
As soon as you think that youare controlling the conversation
, you are leaving zero space forthere to be anything that's off

(33:25):
topic, anything that takes youoff road, anything that could
potentially be something amazing.
Like you have completely shutit down because you're trying to
control it and like I mean,like I struggle with control and
I'm a work in progress, forsure, but like it is like

(33:46):
control is an illusion.
Like it is an illusion becauseif we're controlling one thing,
we are completely negatingsomething else.

Yeah, and that is a.
So we're gonna talk a littlebit about trust this morning.
Okay, do it.
But what you're talking aboutfalls right along the line of
trust, like I've seen withinsome leadership, where they want
to control it and everybodysees it, they know where you're
going, they're talking about itand they're, like you know,
telling you this, and thenyou're shaking your head and
what they're doing is back toyour illusion of control.

(34:19):
Is we have that?
I mean, there's so muchpsychology in how we lead that
but people that are in the knowof the know that you're being
led that way and there's nobuy-in, there's no authenticity
to it, and so you can and leadand guide that way, but then it
does lack that trust that fallswithin that whole idea.

(34:41):
You lose the trust.
So, jumping into this book, theSpeed of Trust, it's a book that
I've listened to several times.
I read through.
It's a Steven MR Covey, it'sSteven Stun, I guess, wrote the
book and dad helped him out.
But there was something thatreally stuck out for me, which I
think fits into ourconversation Interesting enough,
and I challenge you to readthis book because there is a lot

(35:04):
of value in learning trust andthat's one thing that I'm
practicing, I'm learning, I'munderstanding a little bit more
about myself.
But this is so funny.
He says, well, one of his 13principles so in this one
particular principles, getbetter to build trust.
And I'm like, what is this evenfit?
And he says, get better.

(35:24):
And that's one of hisprinciples is based on the
principles of continuousimprovement.
Are we in that space talking?

about.

And listen to this.
Learning and change, likecontinuous improvement, learning
and change it is what theJapanese call Kaizen and it
builds enormous trust.
So reading through trust, andnow we're talking continuous
improvement, all of those things.
I just thought it was a strangeconnection.

(35:53):
I hadn't put the two together.
But do you feel like thecontinuous improvement path that
you're on I mean, you're theprocess continuous improvement
leader for your company Like, doyou think its main principle is
also building trust?

Yes, 100%.
And so the reason why is that?
Yes, I'm in a position where Iget to engage with all of our
projects, all of our departments, all of our people, all of our
everybody that comes into ourcompany.
I get to have interactions withthem, and some of those people
have not been on this 20 yearjourney with me or been on this

(36:30):
10 year journey with me.
And so why, when I go into aroom to facilitate these
conversations, why would theylisten to me?
And there's moments and it'snot me, not imposter syndrome of
why would they care, like it'sme going.
Why would someone come in aroom and listen to what I have

(36:50):
to say or do?
If I ask a question, why wouldthey answer?
And for me, it's because evensome of it's implied, just
because they haven't engagedwith me enough, or because of
the support that I have withinour company from our leadership,
that the trust is there, theintegrity is there, and because

(37:14):
of that, because of the platformthey give me, because of the
support they give me, they trustthat whatever I've been asked
to do, that I can do it.
So there's that part.
I think that's true thatthere's multiple things of trust
, but part of it is do peoplethat have tasked me with
something trust that I can getit done?
And sometimes they don't knowwhat that could be, because my

(37:36):
thinking may be way in front ofwhere we are as a company, but
they trust that because of mybody of work, because of the
things that have happened, thatwe're gonna get there.
And so there's that trust,which I think is huge, because
not everybody I engage with Ihave a relationship with.
The other part of that is whenI do get to engage with our

(37:58):
people and our projects.
How do you build trust?
And that's important, because Idon't think people think about
that like they should trust mebecause of my title.
They should trust me becauseI've been here and I have
experience and I've done thesethings.
That is not how I earn trust,because those are not things
that I'm able to show up and go.
You just need to trust mebecause of this, this and this.

(38:20):
So how do I immediately put themin a place to where they're
like?
This person is genuine, thisperson is real and they care
about me.
And this is a word you don'tlike very much, but I'm gonna
say it.
It starts with vulnerability.
It starts with vulnerability,and how does vulnerability tie

(38:40):
to trust?
Is that if I can get to a pointwhere I take down that armor
and that protection and they seethat I am a human and that I
genuinely care about them andI'm going to expose myself
because I want to be able toconnect with them?
It is amazing what they'rewilling to do, what they're

(39:00):
willing to share and that ithappens one time, jane, one time
, and I will never forget themand they will never forget me.

Yeah, the whole idea of continuous
improvement, building trust,especially fitting into what we
do in construction and for whatyou do as your day job.
Is this your night job?
I don't know what, I don't know, we'll cut that out.
But the idea is, when you're aself-improver, so we'll go at

(39:30):
that level, not just improving.
Well, let's start with this.
Your improving process is thatmake work easier, right?
So?

the they make work better.

The UnCommon Communicato (39:40):
Better .

Better?
Yes, because it's not alwayseasy, Because I have behind me,
I have a sign that says workhard and be nice to people Like.
It's not always gonna be easyand you're gonna have to get up
and it's gonna be tough andyou're gonna have to get your
hands dirty, but it's worth it.

But you're looking at the hands I
hear you've mentioned thatbefore too right, you're looking
at the hands, you're looking atthe feet, you're making that
work better for them.
So that improvement is aprocess that's building trust.
To say, I see you and I'm gonnahelp you.
You may not even see it,because you're right in the work
right there.
So continuous improvement atthat level is building trust.

(40:18):
But the other thing isself-developers as well too.
For me and this issemi-unpopular is I have this
theory of prove me wrong, andpeople don't like that.
Like you should never prove thesuperintendent wrong.
I might have proved me wrong,but here's the background to it
is prove me wrong because then Ionly become better.

Right, I learned yes.

I have.
Now you've proven me wrong, butI have done nothing in doing
that other than now made me moreright.
You've proven me wrong and nowI'm more right because I'm
taking your information.
But that type of scenario, thatspace, that area that you've
opened up really does bring in acertain level of trust because
I'm willing to accept yourfeedback and apply it and then

(41:06):
now we're all become better forit.
It's just such a neat circle ofgrowth.
I think that comes throughtrust, through continuous
improvement.
The one thing I do like aboutthis book I'm a big summary
person.
They do summarize the behaviorswhich, if you summarize
anything with me, if you'regiven a training, if I'm in a
Gen Lacey training and you gaveme some paper that summarized it

(41:26):
, do you know what I'm gonna do?
First I'm gonna go to thesummary first.
I'm gonna see.
Okay, this is what she's gonnatalk about.
Let's see how much time getswasted through all these other
stories or where they beneficialsome terrible that way.
But they did have a summary andof course, I went to the
summaries first.
But this is the summary of thiswhole idea of getting better at
this behavior, continuouslyimprove, increase your

(41:48):
capabilities, be a constantlearner.
Develop feedback systems, bothformal and informal.
Act on the feedback you receive.
Thank people for feedback.
Don't consider yourself abovefeedback.
Don't assume today's knowledgeand skills will be sufficient
for tomorrow's challenges, andyou have a saying for that.

What are you talking about?

So you have a saying that and it
escapes me.
That's why I was hoping that itwould connect.
But it has something to do withwhat got me here.

Well, get me there.
Yeah, 100% it won't if we livein a space of like, we've
reached where we're supposed togo.
We're done like.
We're done Like.
You'll have a moment in theglory, you'll have a moment of
success, and then you're goingto start right back at the
bottom.

Yeah, and that's exactly what they
said here.
Don't assume today's knowledgeand skills will be sufficient
for tomorrow's challenges.
I like the way you word itbetter, because it's more
concise and it really nails it,which is what got you here won't
get you there.
It's the same thing.
What I think was fascinating,though and this is why I wanted
to kind of tie all this togetherat the end of our conversation
is tie it into this book thatyou haven't read yet.

(43:05):
Yeah me.

Well, it's on my list.
I told you I'm not going to getto my list.

The UnCommon Communi (43:09):
Everything that I have read in this
summary is all the things thatyou have talked about in the
idea of building trust throughcontinuous improvement, so I
just thought that was a neat tietogether in regards to that.

So Jim, and I want to add one more, just based
on your summary is a lot oftimes people don't give us
feedback because they're worriedabout how we're going to
respond.
So we hit the part on how weneed to respond if we're asking
for feedback.
But I also know I've got somepeople that I hold in high
regard and anything they tell meI would receive it and I would

(43:43):
realize that they care about me.
And when I've asked them forsomething, they're like well, I
don't want to share this withyou because you may not like it,
and I'm like oh, whoa, whoa,Like let's why, why would you
not?
Because of the verse.
Some of it is like not ratingthings that tie to you directly.

(44:04):
Some of them didn't rate themvery high.
I'm like well then, that's evenbetter, Because now I know
there's a gap on a specificproject and that's something I
can do to get better.
But they know me.
Yet, because it was tieddirectly to me, they were
worried that it would besomething that I wouldn't

(44:25):
receive.
Well, and so it's like we'vegot to make sure that
communication is open both ways,not just when we ask for it,
but setting the stage so thatpeople are willing to give us
something when it's not a funconversation.

Yeah, and that takes a very deep
level of trust but also skill.
I think there's two of thoseinvolved in that.
Because I'm not very good atthat, I'll admit that right now,
as I like bringing in thefluffy stuff.
I want to encourage you to pumpyou up to where you're going,
and there's times where I'mlearning.
I've got to be better at givingthose type of criticisms or

(45:02):
critiques or evaluations,because you want to hear it.
I need to know that you want tohear it, because I'm in the
same boat too.
I don't get enough deep enoughcriticism because of my position
and I think by nature we're notvery good at it.
A lot of people aren't, and allof these things don't help us
improve.

Well, because I think they're uncomfortable,
like when you have to sit thereand give feedback.
That's kind of sticky and yucky, or when you're in a place
where you know that the feedbackyou could be getting could be a
little bit not great.
It's an uncomfortable space andyou could either make it as

(45:49):
uncomfortable and awkward as ithas been, and it will continue
to be the way it is, or you candiffuse it and turn it and flip
it upside down, and to me that'swhat I try to do.
I try to build therelationships and have the
conversations and push thosethings to where, when they know
they're bringing me something,it's like, hey, jennifer, da, da
, da, da, and then we keepmoving and then I act on it and

(46:12):
I make a change and they go.
I need to give her morefeedback, like that's what we've
got to do.

Wow, that's great.
So that's great.
You build momentum to get morefeedback.
They want to give you feedback.
Yes, fascinating.
So, while we wrap things up, ifyou want people to get a hold
of you, how do they get a holdof Ms Jennifer Lacey?

The best way is LinkedIn, Like again, you can go
to my specific page, JenniferLacey If you used to a search,
you'd probably find me.
And then also, if you go to noBS with Jen and Jess same way,
like they're kind of out thereon both platforms, that's the
easiest way and then connectwith me and I will be happy to
help and support my sometimes toa detriment, just based on

(46:57):
feedback I get Sometimes.
But I will share and I willhelp support anything that
anybody needs.
If they want an example, Ifthey want, hey, what about this?
I have a thought.
There's so much out there andwe've lived in this place of
protection and I don't want toshare my secrets because someone
else may be as good as me and Idon't live in that world.
So I am willing to share andconnect and if somebody needs

(47:17):
something, if I don't have theanswer, I have people around me
that do, so happy to help.

So much appreciated and I think
what you're doing for theindustry as well as I'm seeing
others.
It used to be, like you said,that we're very guarded,
protecting our interests.
You work for a generalcontractor that's probably
double the size of the one thatI work for and billions, but
I've sat on some othersuperintendent committees with
some folks through Adam Hoot'scompanies across the country

(47:44):
that are sharing theseimprovements so we can improve
our industry and make us betterwithout that feeling of
competition, Because we're allhere to make work better, as I
found, not easier.

What's going to take all of us.
James, your company is notgoing to get all the work, my
company is not going to get allthe work, and there are going to
be trades that work on my jobs,that are going to go to your
jobs and they're going to go toanother place.
And if we're looking at this asan industry issue and an
industry solution, then whentrades leave me and they go work
for you, it's going to makeyour jobs better and it's like,

(48:21):
well, we've got to look at thisbigger than just an individual
silo, like this is a networkthat when we make things, we
make people better.
Then they're going to go and dobetter things in other places,
which makes our industry better.

The UnCommon Communicat (48:33):
Exactly , yep, and that makes us all
better.
Yes, all right.
This is our time for theuncommon communicator moment.
This is the time where, for thelast hour or less that we've
been chatting, I want to sum itup.
How would you sum up ourconversation?
What's the one thing thatpeople could leave with today
from today's conversation?

Well, I think the summary for me would be that
the feedback and trustconversation I'm going to try to
put it together is that youcannot dictate trust.
And so what are you doing?
What intentionally are youdoing to create that environment
and being able to walk intowhere someone will actually

(49:15):
listen to what you have to say?
And the trust feeds into thefeedback.
So don't make assumptions ontrust or feedback, but you have
to say it, and you not only haveto say it, you have to do it.
And so if they watch you andyour actions don't match what
you're asking them to do, thenit's going to fail.

(49:38):
So you've got to exhibit thethings that you want and then it
will come back to you.
And so, for me, the trust youhave to earn, but you also,
based on your support, you canwalk into a room and have it,
but you have to feed into it tobe able to let them know that
you're the real deal.

So you can't dictate trust, you
have to show it.
Yes.
You have to sum it all up yes.
Well, that's all we've got fortoday.

Awesome.
Thank you all.
Bye-bye, go for it.

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E104 - Trust and Communication With Jennifer Lacy

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