February 7, 2024 • 51 mins
Ever felt the weight of a simple 'no'? We've all been there, wrestling with the anxiety of turning down a request, and the ripple effects it might have. That's why we invited Sarah Ginella, the insightful VP of Full Sail Partners, to unravel the emotional layers that often make it so hard to refuse. Together, we tackle the concept of 'counterfeit yeses' and how to realign our decisions with our true feelings, championing the power of an authentic 'no.' It's a journey through the highs and lows of personal and professional boundaries that promises to leave you with a newfound respect for that tiny syllable.
At the heart of this episode lies the nuanced dance of communication, where a 'no' can be as complex as a kaleidoscope of colors. Sarah and I delve into how context can alter its meaning from a respectful denial to a harmful dismissal, and how recognizing this can empower those feeling undervalued to find their voice. We're not just talking about saying 'no'; we're fostering a workplace culture that applauds it. By doing so, we lay the foundation for authentic dialogue and create a professional environment that respects individual boundaries as much as it does productivity.
Rounding off our insightful chat, we share practical tips and anecdotes on managing workloads and setting professional boundaries. Hear how the go/no-go decision-making framework might just be the tool you need to communicate limits assertively and navigate the delicate balance of work commitments. Understand that it's not just the scale of a project that determines the workload, but the people and emotions behind it, and learn the art of gracefully declining, opening the door to a more balanced life. So tune in, and let's empower you to stand firm in your 'why' and wield the word 'no' with confidence and clarity.
You can find the BOYBAS livestreams here: (1) Bring Out Your BadAss Self (#BOYBAS): Overview | LinkedIn
Here is a link to NoBS with Jenn and Jess : (1) No BS with Jen & Jess: Overview | LinkedIn
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Sarah Gonnella (00:00):
I'm going to talk right down to us and I'll
hang with everybody here and caneasily understand.
The UnCommon Communicat (00:06):
Welcome to the Uncom communicator
podcast, where we bringenlightenment to the topic of
communication.
Are you ready to take ownershipof your conversations?
Are you looking to possess theskills to navigate and
facilitate conversations to amutual understanding?
What are you waiting for?
Have your growth mindset andlet's go.
Welcome everybody to thisweek's show.
(00:35):
This week, I am so excited tohave Sarah Ginella with me.
Sarah, why don't you introduceyourself to us?
Introduce us to our listener.
Sarah Gonnella (00:43):
Perfect.
Good evening, james.
It's great to be here.
Thank you for having me.
My name is Sarah Ginella and Iam a partner and VP of Full Sail
Partners and I overseemarketing and sales for the
company, but I'm also theco-host of a live stream and we
(01:04):
focus on breaking negativethoughts and habits and focusing
on helping to build each otherup and encouraging fearless
authenticity.
So a part of today that's goingto be part of our topic is
helping people to be fearless inthe power of no Right.
The UnCommon Communicator (01:24):
Yes, we are going to be talking
about the power of no.
What first really connected us,really had to do with the power
of now.
Like, we talked a little bitabout that.
We met on LinkedIn.
We're going to drop the W.
That's what we're going to dotoday and talk about no, and
it's been an interesting ridefor us.
Like this is our second goaround.
I'm all willing to accept it.
I had some internet issues andwe're like, let's go back at
(01:47):
this and then, going back at it,probably the best thing for me.
It allowed me a little bit oftime to think about what and how
we address the word no.
Now let's talk about no.
We had originally a discussionabout the importance of it and
we had kind of different takeson it and we're going to talk a
little bit about that.
(02:08):
But when we talk about the wordno, like what kind of feelings
come from you when we talk aboutthe word no?
Sarah Gonnella (02:15):
Yeah, so the word no is really two simple
letters and it's also one simpleword and it is a complete
sentence as well, and a lot ofpeople don't understand that
people can simply say no andmove on.
But what I have found is that alot of people sometimes have
very difficult times saying theword no, and it can be a very
(02:40):
powerful word.
But I've also found that aspeople start to use the word no,
they start to learn also how tosay yes without saying no as
well.
The UnCommon Communicator (02:54):
And we talked a little bit about
that, because the yes fallinginto yes isn't a great thing
either, and I think that's whatdrives us to this discussion
about the power of no, andthat's something.
Let's pause on that for aminute, because being a people
pleaser, being somebody whoalways wants to give people what
they want, a lot of times weI'm throwing myself in there,
(03:16):
like I want to make sure thatpeople are happy with the
product that I'm bringing, witheverything, so I have a hard
time saying no, but also yes hascreated a lot of havoc in my
life.
So learning to say no issomething that is not natural
for.
Do you think?
Half of us, a lot of us.
Sarah Gonnella (03:35):
I think a lot of us, and I think the word
pause that you used was the keyword.
It is taking a pause tounderstand.
In the moment when you have anemotion and you're not sure
which way you should go yes orno it's having that pause and
understanding, okay.
Well, what's going on here.
Why am I feeling thisparticular way?
(03:58):
Because a lot of times, what'spacked with having difficulty
saying no is that maybe you haveguilt.
Like you said, you're a peoplepleaser and so there's maybe
fear of disappointing someone ormaybe someone not liking you.
And I think that when we thinkabout in the past, when we grew
(04:21):
up, it's we were taught early onthat we should listen to adults
, we should always do the thingsthat they say, that we're told
to behave a particular way andwe're told that authority
figures we should always do whatit is they are telling us.
(04:42):
So we've actually been taughtnot to say the word no, but we
have been taught in a lot ofways to say the word yes.
The UnCommon Communicator (04:53):
Well , and that's something.
So you're right, this is almosta culture thing, but also just
being raised in.
A lot of societies are likethat.
You're raised to do your thing.
Some are stricter than others,but, yeah, you have to say yes
all the time.
No is never an acceptable thing.
And how to do no effectively?
Because when I look at the ideaof yes and no, a lot of times
(05:16):
there's a thing calledcounterfeit yeses.
That's something in negotiationwhere somebody will say yes
just to get you to move on, getyou out of their office, get the
guy off the phone.
Yes, it's fine, I'll be there.
And that on the other side wehave to look at because of that
mindset we're looking at, isthere counterfeit no's in there
as well?
(05:36):
And I think the key whereyou're going to is we have to
say them effectively, like Sam,with real meaning behind them.
Sarah Gonnella (05:46):
Yeah, absolutely.
And so when we start to look atno, it's really evaluating your
gut.
And so what you said is thatwe're saying yes, but it's just
to get it off the plate or tojust agree, even though that's
not where our heart is.
So when we start to practicesaying no or even yes, you can
(06:06):
really do that easily by havinga gut check.
And so it's just askingyourself how do I feel in this
particular moment?
And what I have found is, whenyou feel uncomfortable saying
yes, that is a moment to pauseand say, okay, well, why am I
(06:29):
feeling this way?
Or do I feel obligated to dosomething?
Because I feel maybe guilty ifI don't do that?
And you start to look at peoplewithin your life and the people
that you feel like you need tosay yes to.
So when we think about thosethings your boss, your spouse
you know the responsibilities orthe things that you have going
(06:53):
on in your life, that you wantto please your kids, you want to
please all of these people, butsometimes you get overloaded
and you need the ability to beable to set some healthy
boundaries.
Okay, this is what's importantto me.
Here are my values.
This is why I should do this,and that's really where the
pause comes into play isunderstanding and doing a gut
(07:15):
check to understand.
Am I just trying to do this toplease someone?
Or, you know, is this request,for example, crossing my
personal boundaries?
So it's asking that question.
The UnCommon Communicator (07:28):
Well , so you said boundaries and I
think that is probably one ofthe keys right to really
understanding the no and the yes.
And I think, if we can, this isalmost going to be a paradigm
shift of the fact that if we'reraised a certain way, so are
others raised the other way.
So there's people out therethat don't think no means no and
(07:49):
where does no mean no?
Because there's a negotiationsubsec that's out there saying
no begins the negotiation.
I mean, this is what Chris Vosssays in negotiation
specifically, but he's notsaying no means no.
Now you have a very clear storyon why no means no and how does
no mean no apply and when.
Sarah Gonnella (08:10):
Yeah, I mean and I can understand in a
negotiation hostage situationyou're needing to get that
person to a yes.
But I can tell you frompersonal experience
understanding that no means nois super important.
And so, growing up, one of thethings that a lot of times
(08:31):
people had a part of their lifeis oh, you should give grandma
or you should give uncle a hug,or you should.
Even if you feel uncomfortable,you're still almost obligated
to give that person a hug, andone of the things that I've
really found is that weshouldn't do that because we are
(08:51):
actually impacting people'sconsent and ability to be able
to say no and that can actuallybe very harmful.
And I'm case in point.
Growing up, I ended up having tolearn how to say no, because
whenever I was young, I wasactually molested by my cousin
(09:15):
for a year and then later on inlife I ended up finally going
and getting some real help and Iended up going into inpatient
mental institute because I washaving feelings of suicide.
And what I found in that is theygave me a book called how to
Say no when you Really Want toSay yes, and for me, I wasn't
(09:37):
involved in drugs, I wasn'tinvolved in mischief or things
like that.
I was actually saying yes toalmost everything, so I was
overloading myself in doing,doing, doing in order to forget
and not deal with what it isthat I was dealing with.
So I had to actually have amental mind shift and I really
(09:57):
didn't learn this until muchlater, in the power of no, and
why no can be so important tomake sure that you are safe.
And so, if we go back to yourquestion about boundaries, the
difference is boundaries keep ussafe, much like physical
boundaries.
So you think about a fence andit's meant to keep people in and
(10:20):
it's a particular boundary.
Well, the same thing can applyto our, our mental health, you
know.
So those expectations give noproperty line to another person,
but the boundary is what youset in, what it is you're going
to do to instill that boundary.
The UnCommon Communicator (10:40):
Well , and thanks so much for sharing
that story, because that reallydrives home.
It helps me understand a littlebetter why no is so important.
Really understanding boundaries, too is who owns those?
I mean, I understand, ifsomebody can set boundaries,
then we need to respect them,but how do we set boundaries?
Sarah Gonnella (11:03):
Yeah.
So I think part of it isunderstanding your values first
and foremost, and so we have tounderstand our physical
boundaries.
And I'll give you an example ofthat.
So my daughter growing up infifth grade, she decided that
she did not like hugs.
Well, as a mom, that's superhard Like I want to hug my
(11:25):
daughter and so but I also knewthe importance of that boundary.
She said I'm really not ahugger.
So I said, okay, here's whatI'm going to do.
This is going to be super hardfor mom, but I also respect the
boundary that you're setting andwhat it is that you're asking.
So, instead of just giving youa hug, I will ask you.
(11:46):
I will say can I get a hug?
And you can say yes or you cansay no, and I will do whichever
it is that you stated and whatthat does is that really
instills within someone thatthey have the ability to have
consent over their physical body.
Now keep in mind, probably likesix months later, all of a
(12:07):
sudden she was a hugger againand now she hugs me all the time
.
But the fact that I ended uprespecting her and respecting
that boundary provided thattrust, and that is what really
boundaries are about.
It's establishing healthyrelationships with people, and
keep in mind that it can bespiritual, it can be mental, it
(12:29):
can be any.
There are multiple types ofboundaries, so when we think
about things in what isimportant to us, it's
understanding what is importantto us from a value perspective,
and then it's letting someoneknow what that expectation is.
Now, if that person crossesover that boundary, then we have
(12:50):
to learn how it is that we thenhave the conversation and let
them know.
Look, this was something that Ihad stated to you, but this is
what I'm going to do.
I'm not expecting you to now doanything.
I'm letting you know the nexttime this happens.
This is what I will do.
The UnCommon Communicator (13:08):
And tying this to communication,
which everything, everythingties to communication.
What an easy podcast, right?
I picked the most common topicyou could ever.
Everything ties to it.
But boundaries are big in allof our conversations and what
you're talking about is acommunication technique.
It divides, its protection, youknow.
It's a shield, it's whateveryou want to call it.
It's the ability to have thecontrol for yourself, to be in
(13:30):
your now, right now, to say I amin control of this by placing
those boundaries.
So I think that's, I think thisis just really brilliant in
bringing out in regards to, toconversation, communication and
all of that.
But this one here, like youknow, we had this start and the
stop and it really created anopportunity for me to reflect on
(13:51):
our conversation that we had,and it was.
It took me a while, like Iprocessed, for I have a very
long commute into work today, onMondays, and it took me some
time to really think about, like, why?
What is the connection betweenthe nose?
Like there is because I wasseeing no on the negotiation
side.
You're seeing no from the sidethat you just shared, which is
(14:13):
completely personal andabsolutely a power, you know,
position of strength.
And then it kind of came to meand so the whole idea is there's
there's two notes, at least two, we're going to stick to today.
But the no of refusal, that'swhere because I, looking at
negotiation, like no starts anegotiation.
That means no doesn't mean no.
I'm like wait a minute.
(14:33):
But if there's a no of refusal,if somebody says no, that is no
means no, that's it.
That should be a one done,you're out, forget about it.
But the one thing on the noside I think that really has
brought me into really talkingabout communication and really
wanting to bring value to peoplewho feel underserved,
(14:56):
underspoken, who don't speak upfor themselves and that's why I
bring up this whole topic ofcommunication is the no of
dismissal.
And that's the one, I think,where you look at somebody who
is just dismissed.
Why?
Because they're a woman,because they're a man, because
they're short, because they'retall, that doesn't matter.
(15:18):
People are dismissed.
And when they're dismissed,those are the communication
responsibilities, notresponsibilities, the
communication skills that wewant to give to people to be
able to speak up for themselves,and I think that's the other
side of that.
No, when you're told no in a wayof dismissal, which, to me,
when we're in a group, if youand I are chatting and I've
(15:41):
shared this on the podcastbefore and somebody comes up, I
immediately bring them, andsometimes there are people who
don't have any it's a nice wayto put it.
They had no social practice toknow that somebody just walked
up and you ignore them.
I've been that person and tonot acknowledge them, so that to
me is a dismissal in a way.
(16:02):
How do we bridge that gap?
And so that's the other side ofthe known for me, like, all
right, that's something thatSarah and James can work on,
Like we can work on a way toreally bring about.
You know, no means no.
To me that's easy, especiallyin you know, if I go on a bar or
whatever, all those situationsyou know, typically they're
talking about leading tosomething you know sexual, that
(16:22):
somebody doesn't want to do, ordrinking, or whatever it might
be.
No means no, but talk aboutdismissal.
Have you been in places whereyou've felt dismissed by a no?
Sarah Gonnella (16:35):
You know, whenever I think about that, I
think it all depends on thesituation and, as we have
discovered it, it very muchdepends on the situation, like
in the negotiation hostagesituation.
You're not wanting to reallyaccept that.
No, because people's lives areat stake.
When it is a boss that isdismissing or a coworker that's
(17:00):
dismissing another person's idea, that can be very detrimental
as well.
What we don't know is what's inthe other side, why it is
they're saying no, because, keepin mind, most of the time it
has to do with potentially fear,fear of what you know, fear of
extra work, you know, fear ofchange, fear of, and so a lot of
(17:23):
times it's maybe approachingthe situation or the topic again
to better understand where thepotential barriers might be.
And sometimes what I have foundis when someone simply gives me
a no and they give it to mequickly like there's something
there.
So I feel like I need to sortof respect them.
(17:45):
But if they're saying, forexample, no, you know, we've
always done it this way, okay,well, you know, those are the
seven most expensive words rightthere in business is no, we've
always done it this way, and so?
So you then have to figure outokay, well, how can I now figure
(18:05):
out a way to be able to helpthis, understand the person,
understand the benefits.
But when you say no, thebenefits of sometimes saying no,
is because one I might be burntout or it doesn't align with my
goals, or you know, I need selfcare, I just have too much
going on right now.
Or maybe, like in business forexample, I say no sometimes to
(18:29):
clients and I say you know what?
We're not a good fit.
So I think you know it's allcontext and it's all depends.
But for me, when someoneadamantly says no, I have to
sort of respect them becausethere's something there that
they are feeling uncomfortableand if they're that adamant in
quickly saying no, then it.
(18:51):
Then they're sort of, you know,shutting it down and I need to
sort of respect it.
If they're saying no, I don'treally want to do that.
That to me is sort of aninvitation that they're still
wavering.
It's not a definite no.
Does that make sense?
The UnCommon Communicator (19:06):
Yeah , completely.
And when you talked aboutpeople saying no, quickly happen
enough, I don't think.
And so you have a practice atyour business, where you have
people practice.
No, tell me more, telleverybody about that.
Tell me about my first week Icome in.
This is my first week on thejob.
(19:26):
How are you going to onboard me?
Sarah Gonnella (19:29):
I got you.
Well, this was actually withsome specific individuals that
they had identified that theywere people pleasers and
specifically me being theirsupervisor.
The last thing I want are, yes,people.
And so, for me, one of the bestways that I was able to
(19:53):
identify how to help them is Ineeded them to feel comfortable
saying no.
And so one particular person Iended up going to them and I
said, okay, I have an exercisethat I want us to try.
And I said, for the next week,I want you, every time I come to
(20:15):
you, to say no.
And this person was like whatare you doing to me?
Because they're like alreadyuncomfortable with me, even
requesting that.
And I said they go, am Isupposed to say no now?
And I'm like I started laughingand I said okay, here's the
thing I said.
One of the things that you saidthat you I want to work on is
(20:35):
that you're a people pleaser andthat you tend to add a lot of
things to your plate or say yesvery quickly because you want to
please people.
You, you, but you.
Sometimes that can impact us,as you have seen with with being
over, I burnt out, and that'snot one of the things that we
want, we want in our company.
(20:56):
So whenever I told her that Iended up doing some different
things where I would go to herand I gave her an unreasonable
item that she was An expectationthat I had of her, it was over
the weekend.
There was a client, we hadanother employee out and I said,
hey, I found out theinformation I need for you to
(21:20):
send this person an email.
She's like okay, I'm drivingright now.
Mind you, this is on theweekend.
She's like can I, can I do this?
You know, whenever I get a getback and I said no and she was
like gosh.
She's like what do you want meto do?
And she was like stressing andI'm like look, you know, we had
this conversation.
(21:40):
No, sarah, I, you know.
You don't even have to say no,I can get to that on Monday when
I get back to work.
That's all you have to say.
So you don't even have to sayno, yes, I got that, I'll get it
on Monday.
And then if I have a problemand I needed it that that
weekend, for whatever reason, itwas an emergency we can do that
(22:01):
.
But I've had other employees,for example and this is with
clients that they feel obligatedthey must take care of
situations immediately, and Isaid so.
Did the clients say that theyneeded it done immediately?
They were like I don't knowthey, but they reached out to me
and I said okay, so when aclient comes to you, ask them,
(22:23):
say, hey, right now it lookslike my schedule is about two
weeks out.
I want to find out, is thissomething you need done
immediately, that I need to tryto find someone to be able to
help you, or is it okay if we,you know, schedule this in two
weeks and they're like, oh no,you know, two weeks is fine, and
so it's just having thatconversation, when, in actuality
(22:45):
, they have almost an assumptionor they feel obligated that
they need to immediately respondor do things With.
With people and I've seen thisall the time, and you may have
seen this at your boss send youout something at 9pm and you're
like crap, I need to respondback to that.
Well, no, you don't.
You can simply say the nextmorning hey, I saw you sent me
(23:07):
an email at 9pm last night.
Just wanted to let you knowthat after 6 o'clock and night,
you know I'm done for theevening and I will be sure to
pick those up in the morning.
You now have simply set theexpectation and the boundary.
The UnCommon Communicator (23:23):
You were.
You're setting boundaries, butI'm listening to you.
I'm like now I would respond.
I need to work on that.
That's certainly something.
I'm like six, I'm still working.
What are you talking about?
But it's something that you,that you touched on, that I
think is really important totalk about, is the idea of you
know that feeling to be able tosay no for one, but also To have
that conversation with aboutdeadlines.
(23:45):
There's my friend, philippe,engineer man Rikas says all
deadlines are a lie, likethey're there.
I've seen, I've seen teams inmultiple companies where they'll
get a deadline and you workjust all weekend to get it and
the client's like I mean, theydidn't, they, we wanted to react
, we wanted to react and pleasethem, get to it, but it really
(24:07):
wasn't that important.
And I've heard these words likeit could have waited, like they
didn't know that you went intoemergency mode.
And that's what I love is havethat clarifying question of you
know, is this a true deadline?
At least, have that, you know,up front conversation, unless
you got time for it.
But I'm going to tell youpeople who are people pleasers,
they're going to find the timeand it's going to be the time
(24:29):
that they take away from theirfamilies.
It's going to be time that theytake away from themselves.
So that's, you know, notnecessarily even a good one, is
to look at just the time, but tolook at, you know, that
boundary and that respect,because that's exactly it.
You hear the opportunity to beable to say does you know, can
it wait till Monday?
And a lot of times it's like ohyeah, and I've seen that, like
(24:50):
recently on a couple of things.
It's like oh yeah, I didn'tneed it right away, but the
words, your tone, you know, yourposition, all said to me that
this needed to happen right now.
And when you talked about aboss, we like I'll clean up the
words, this is a G rated podcast, but I guess it's called
Seagull managing now where thebird comes around and we use the
(25:12):
different words on how theyjust poop on your head and then
go home.
Well, I, we had boss.
I had a boss like that and itwas always like two o'clock on a
Friday.
You know he go down and he's areally fast typer and he'd shoot
out all these things and needthis report and he this and he
that and he that.
And then like it's like, oh,what a week I feel great, I'm
done early, and then he'd split,because then he just dumped all
(25:35):
that.
I mean he was done and then hedumped that stuff and that.
Those were things where it'slike, man, I'm gonna be here
till four or five o'clock atnight because I don't want to
take it home, and so those arethe things where, you know,
looking back at it, you know youreally need this by Monday
morning at 7am.
You know, no, I'm not gonna lookat it till the end of the day.
Okay, then I can put it aside.
And then that goes back to thatboundaries.
(25:55):
I own them.
Like I have to decide, you know, like when I decide I'm gonna
stay late, just so I don't haveto work on it on the weekend.
That's my choice.
Maybe not a great choice, notlet it go until Monday and work
on it on Monday sometimes, no,but that's, I think, the key in
finding, you know, finding thoseboundaries.
Sarah Gonnella (26:16):
Yeah, and I also think that a lot of times,
with someone that's yoursupervisor or someone that has
that authority or that basicallyalmost control, in some ways,
of the money that you're goingto make and your career and all
of those types of things, we wefeel that we have to please this
(26:37):
person.
We have to make sure that we'rewe're doing what we need to do,
and one of the things that wehave really focused on I say it
all the time at the verybeginning I said this no is a
complete sentence.
So if you are feelingoverloaded or overworked,
whatever it is, we simplyrequest that you communicate,
(26:58):
and we do this across the boardas well.
So I had an employee that evenasked me well, what am I working
hours?
And I said, well, what hours doyou need to work to get your
job done?
And I said to make sure thatyou're communicating, you know,
with, with your clients, withyour coworkers, things like that
.
She's like oh, so just be anadult, like yes, that's what we
(27:18):
expect is for people to be anadult and for us to also be able
to say no, because we don'tknow what's going on in their
life.
And that's the biggest part isthe human element of what all
might be going with going onwith them.
So a lot of times, people willhear me and I'll say I'm going
to get a massage, like I havefigured out that my body and my
(27:41):
mind sometimes needs to shutdown in order to revive myself,
and so on.
You know, almost every sixweeks on a Saturday, I tend to
do it, and sometimes I'm notable to.
I go get a massage because Iknow that that's something that
I need.
But when you also think aboutthe career aspect, when a boss
(28:04):
is asking you to do something,is that an alignment with your
goals?
You know, is that something?
Now?
Keep in mind, for me, it'salways stepping up.
We were always trying to helpeach other.
That's ultimately what it'sabout.
But if I'm asking or someoneelse is asking them to do
something that really isn't analignment with what their goals
(28:25):
are, shouldn't we be raising ourhand and saying, hey, you know,
just want to check in on this.
You know to for us to get analignment on things, and that's
a lot of times what what theknow and the boundaries are
about is making sure that youwere in alignment from a
communication perspective.
The UnCommon Communicato (28:44):
That's the whole thing.
Right is being able toeffectively communicate.
A know that is a no, a yes thatis a yes, and then you know we
talked early about that pause,but I think that's where we end
up.
We hear so many counterfeitknows and counterfeit yeses,
like how many times has somebodysaid you know, yes, to get you
out of the office?
I'll be at the office mixer onThursday, no problem.
(29:06):
And then, because it's Mondayand they know between now and
Thursday that they're going tocome up with a reason that they
don't have to know be some kindof work related thing, right.
Sarah Gonnella (29:15):
Would you?
The UnCommon Communicato (29:16):
rather her to know.
But it is, and I haven't beenin a work situation for a long
time that I wasn't there tomanage myself, just kind of like
I've been at work.
They've let me be an adult fora long time.
You know what I'd have to askwhat are my work hours?
Because what have I do?
I probably work longer hours,ultimately, anyways, because I'm
driven to get my my job done.
So there is that driven part ofit expectation that you have,
(29:40):
and we all know the people thataren't producing, because you
just want people to go in and dotheir job and then go home, no
matter what time is.
So but I know this, like it'sbeen years.
Like I said, I haven't had aboss, but I know it's out there.
So you know that's the wholekey is giving people opportunity
or tips on how to create thoseboundaries and how to have a
(30:01):
good no and a good yes and bewilling to stand to that,
because there is and we can'tget ourselves.
And I think you you sounds likeyou're in a great organization.
I work for a great organizationthat lets me manage.
You know my time as well too.
But there's people out there whoare no could mean they lose
their job, and you know it'seasy for me to sit in.
(30:21):
You know my direct deposit topaycheck, to say you know, you
know you shouldn't have to bethere, but those are real.
You know I worked paycheck topaycheck for a lot of years,
worked hourly, my wife stayedhome watch the kids, and so he
missing those days.
You, you put up with a lot ofstuff that you shouldn't have.
Looking back at it.
You know, and that's one thingis, how do you encourage people
(30:42):
to be able to set thoseboundaries, to set themselves
first, because at some point,you know, it's kind of like this
podcast, like it was a.
It wasn't going well when wetried it, my internet wasn't
working.
You know, this year we're havingjust a deeper, better
conversation.
Maybe it's the same thing withyour.
You know the company you're in.
You think I can't afford toleave.
Well, maybe you can afford notto.
(31:03):
If you're going to go, peopleare going to respect you because
you're not out there lookingand I was there.
I mean you.
Just you kept working in thatjob because I needed that
paycheck to come in.
But how do you do that?
How do you?
How do you encourage people tobe able to create those
boundaries that could, it couldaffect their paycheck?
Sarah Gonnella (31:20):
Yeah.
So I'll give you an example ofa conversation that I had with
someone.
One of the things that somarketers were a lot of times
very it's a very thinkless jobin a lot of ways.
So, especially in the AECindustry, you're doing proposals
.
I remember doing proposals attwo o'clock in the morning,
(31:42):
getting things done, and I hadthis person that said I need
more staff members and I can'tget my leadership to understand
that I need more people and I'mafraid I'm going to lose people.
I'm not going to have enoughpeople Then then it's become,
going to become even worse.
(32:03):
So my suggestion to them wasthink about things from their
perspective.
So when we think about thedifferent types of people and I
think that's what ends up beingimportant and so I I said you
know, from an executive, they'retalking about growth.
You know, so it's it's eitheryou're going to miss out on some
(32:24):
growth or you're going to givethem more growth.
So if you're able tocommunicate it in that way, then
it's that it's in that point.
So, as an example, I said no go.
You know, go, no go.
For example, it was lettingthem know that I'm going to be
doing these go, no goes, and I'mgoing to be evaluating whether
(32:44):
we should or shouldn't be goingafter things.
I'm now starting to set aboundary, because I'm saying
this go, no go.
If it doesn't fit thisthreshold, it is now one not
hitting the growth expectationthat you have to.
It's also I'm dictating, or I'mstating how much workload we
can actually do.
(33:05):
So if I only have three peopleand I know that I can only do 15
proposals a month, whatever itis, I'm now setting the
expectation.
These other ones are going toget cut off.
And her question was well, whathappens?
Whenever he comes back and hesays, well, we have to go after
this, I would say well, let meknow which one I will be
(33:26):
removing from my list.
And she was like OK, but youknow, but, but, but.
And I was just like look, as amanager over other people, it is
actually your responsibility tomake sure that you're helping
your staff, because if youaren't able to step up and say
no, you are now not onlyimpacting yourself, but you're
(33:49):
impacting your entire staffbecause you can't say no.
So think of it in hisperspective, first and foremost
and what's important to him, butshow him that what you're doing
is looking at it based onprofit.
That is what you have hired mefor.
That's goal.
That's alignment and goals.
Your expectation for me to I'mletting you know what I can and
(34:11):
can't do and then if you wantsomething else, then let me know
what.
What it is it is that's goingto go away to the, to the
wayside, because my, myexpectation and my you know what
it is, my boundary is notchanging, but I'm willing to
negotiate which one you want todo.
The UnCommon Communicator (34:30):
So here we are negotiating, but
that so you make a great pointof prioritizing, because that, I
think, comes into play whenyou're going to decide to say
yes or no, or maybe or not.
Now.
I think not now is completelyacceptable to say that and what
you know, what you're talkingabout, like coming in and here's
this, and then it startsgetting piled on.
I've used these words, which iswhat do you want me not to do?
(34:55):
Exactly, it's similar to whatyou said.
I've said those same things.
It's like I can't do all ofthis.
I can't do all of this by theend of today.
I know what my workload is andI can't stay till 9 o'clock
tonight.
What do you not want done?
And it's amazing how, when youreally learn to prioritize and
that's, that's a skill, it's apractice.
It's not always easy for somepeople, but everybody can learn
(35:17):
how to do it you realize thatthere are, you know, is it at
life-threatening level or is itcannot wait till tomorrow?
And there's that range inbetween, and I do it a lot
because I work in, I do scrum.
I've my friend Philippe hastaught me how to do scrum and
when you're doing scrum, whichis a lightweight framework for
problem-solving and for planning.
When you are setting up yourscrum board and you're setting
(35:39):
up your to-do list, you're I'mconstantly prioritizing.
Now this is probably a bad.
I'll tell you how I learned toprioritize.
Like I've ran manpower for alot of years and I'm sorry, but
there's always here's your topemployee and here's your bottom
employee and there's a gradientin between and we've had to do
that, like when we were slow,when I was doing a lot of work
at Miller Coors, like you'd getslow and we had we had to let
(36:02):
people go.
We try to keep them as long aswe can.
That that's how it works.
But that is that's aprioritizing of skill sets, of
you know responsibilities andknow that these people can.
They will go find another jobsomewhere else.
We just we're gonna lose them,like it was bad for us to lose
them and it was bad for them tomove on, but they had other work
.
But that prioritizing is reallythe most important thing for me
(36:22):
to be able to say yes or no.
And then, even with the scrumidea, sometimes, as the product
owner is the guy who's going tobe deciding how this is.
You know where this sits.
Sometimes those prioritieschange.
You know our relationshipschange in what we need, so we're
able to move that up andprioritize, but you still know
what your limitations are at theend of the day or end of the
(36:44):
week and you have to be able tomake those decisions.
And I have put things asidethat suddenly were important
yesterday, that we're suddenlynow the most important thing and
it's amazing how you do allthat.
And you know nobody died, youknow no trains crashed, you know
no snow airplanes, you know whofell out of the sky when you
(37:05):
really look at you know thatidea of prioritizing those yeah.
Sarah Gonnella (37:10):
Well, and the other thing that I would say is
like I had an employee thisweekend.
They reached out to me and theywere like oh I, I woke up in a
panic and here it is Saturday.
I forgot that it was the end ofthe month and that's why you
were asking me to do thesethings.
They were like I worked on itthis today and I'm like why?
I'm like, why are you workingon it?
(37:31):
Like go enjoy your weekend.
Like this wasn't, this wasn'tsomething I was.
You know, this isn't life ordeath, but she was.
She felt obligated still, andyou know and this is another
person, that is a people pleaserthat I'm gonna be working on
and I'm probably gonna do thatsame Thing that I did with the
other person.
All right, we're gonna go awhole week, and the other person
I did like for another week.
I was like you still need somepractice.
(37:51):
It's saying no to me, and so Ithink that it's just so
important.
But one of the things you justsaid is that you can say no,
simply no.
Sometimes people areuncomfortable saying no and you
can say no, I'm afraid I can't,or, unfortunately, I have plans
or you know, I'm not gonna beable to fit this in.
That is saying no, but you canalso do it with a yes, and the
(38:15):
way you said it was almost a yesas well, you know.
So, yes, I can do XYZ, you know, when you know I can make this
a priority.
Which item do you not want tobe a priority?
So you're not saying you can'tdo what they said that they
wanted.
You're just saying somethingelse is gonna have to fall to
(38:38):
the wayside, and that's aperfect example of saying no
with a yes.
Exactly, and that's a greatapproach too If you're concerned
about, you know, losing yourjob.
The UnCommon Communicator (38:49):
It's like, yeah, I would love to do
that, but I can't do all that,and I don't think there's anyone
who wouldn't hear that and say,okay, I get it, and in some
cases that's where they get.
Allow some empathy in there.
What I love that you do is apractice of and also being being
a strong enough leader to sayit's okay to say no.
Not all leaders say that, and Ithink that's an important thing
(39:10):
to do on on a social level, toallow your direct reports and
even people around you to sayit's okay to say no.
You know, I've heard peopleclarify that before, and maybe
in a way that not as I think,not as driven, not as intuitive
as you are purposely training askill, but they say it's okay to
say no.
You know, they give you, theykind of give you that permission
(39:31):
.
I've also heard those exactsame words when it's okay to say
no, we quick, but I prefer younot.
Sarah Gonnella (39:41):
But to understand, and that's where I
think it comes to that havingthat, the ability to do that To
understand, and that's where Ithink it comes to that.
The UnCommon Communicato (39:48):
Having that, the ability to have a
conversation to say, you know,let's, let's prioritize together
and let them make that decision.
I do that a lot as, as I'velearned to the coach learned to
be better, you know, just to bea better, you know, communicator
is to have that conversation toallow those decision, that
decision load To be on somebodyelse.
(40:10):
And when you allow which isbasically what you're doing,
you're not no, but you're sayingokay, what do you not want me
to do?
Because I think a lot of timesCould you mention this too about
your employees, their workload.
I don't think people reallyunderstand their workload in in
general construction they talkabout, you know, a pm Should be
able to run, you know, 50, 60million dollars with the work,
(40:32):
which is just kind of a made-upnumber, because I had because is
it 50 million on one job or isit 51 million dollar jobs?
Mm-hmm.
I was approached by my formerboss when we're working in small
projects and he says well, Iwant to grow this division to be
a hundred million dollardivision.
How many superintendents do youneed?
I mean, there's an actualquestion he asked me.
I said oh, that's easy, and Idid do this too, so that's easy.
(40:54):
Um, is it a hundred milliondollar jobs or one 100 million
dollar job?
Because if it's one 100 milliondollar job, I probably need
maybe four or fivesuperintendents, and you know
whatever that staff is gonna, ifit's 100, one million dollar
jobs, and I'm gonna need 100superintendents, and so there's
just this big gap between thatquestion, but understanding that
(41:16):
you know, this is there's.
There's so many, letting himkind of choose that right.
Well, I don't know what.
We just want to grow thedivision.
Well, I can't tell you how manypeople we need until we see the
quantity of jobs that we havein front of us and that's you're
able to process and have thatconversation with somebody to
say, because I could easily havesaid you know, I don't know, 50
(41:37):
superintendents will go getthem.
So I'll go out and get 50superintendents, and then the
work doesn't roll in and then,what you know, I'll get
superintendents sitting around.
That's not gonna happen, not intoday's market, that's for sure
.
Sarah Gonnella (41:49):
Yeah, and I would also add I had one
particular employee that a lotof times I'm very quick, for the
most part because I have toquickly solve Issues, and that's
just a skill set that I've.
I've sort of learned, or maybeit's intuitive, it's just a part
of what I do.
But I had another employee thatI knew that this person was
(42:11):
going to take time.
That's what I had learned fromthem and I was glad that they
didn't feel Obligated to give mean answer.
They would say to me Can I takea moment to Think about this?
I'm like, yeah, absolutely.
And so a lot of times peoplefeel obligated even just to say
or give an answer.
(42:32):
But sometimes, when we aren'tsure in any situation, whether
it's no, yes, giving an answer,just asking for can I get a
moment to reflect upon this, orthe pause, as you said?
And so that's really where thepower is and that's where I have
found that, when I identify allof the different employees in
(42:54):
the things that they're good atand the things that they might
have Weaknesses, in that willimpact their position or the
company, it's my obligation tohelp empower them.
And so a lot of the things thatpeople do day in day out have
nothing to do with the technical.
It has to do with the reallyhard stuff.
(43:14):
It's the communication, it'sthe setting expectations, it's
being in alignment, it's all ofthose types of things and also
understanding the Fear aspect.
Fear is a huge driver for somany things in the workplace
that if I haven't dealt withthat in my personal life Even
(43:34):
just learning how to say no thatthen rolls over into my
business life.
So I can't emphasize enoughthat it's important that we
really understand employees froma human perspective and the
things that that maybe they'restruggling with, but it really
has to do with maybe somethingpersonal within their life.
That's really where I havefound I'm able to empower people
(43:57):
is really understanding what'sgoing on in their life in
general in general, and thenthat does affect workload.
The UnCommon Communicator (44:04):
But knowing that, being empathetic
towards that, that's reallyreally huge.
I mean that's what a brilliantway to manage your people.
Because back to that workloadthing, when you look at so I was
saying 50 million or 51 milliondollar jobs there's this
perception that somebody'srunning smaller projects, that
they should be running $40million worth of job at that
(44:25):
level of project manager andthat's not accurate because I
was on a small job that had, say, it's, $4 million.
It had 27 or 26, I think,subcontractors on the project.
There was also another jobbeing run that was about $40,
$50 million.
It had one more.
Like the contract.
I mean all of those things doesnot dictate the workload of your
(44:47):
employee.
You have to understand whatthat is and then add in there
you know what his dog died, orhis mom's not well, or his
wife's sick, or the kids havewhatever and to be able to
understand that and beempathetic towards that and know
that those things are factorsthat are gonna affect quality of
work, they're gonna affecttheir response of stuff.
(45:08):
So I think that's really one ofthe things maybe driving down
and understanding the power ofno from a leadership perspective
is having that empathy to knowthe background to what may be a
yes or a no or a maybe, to knowthat there is that background,
that thing that's in thebackground.
Sarah Gonnella (45:26):
Yeah, I agree.
You know, the biggest thing Ithink with practicing saying no
is one doing just that,practicing it.
And what I loved about theexercise that we did is I was
giving this person permission tosay no when they probably
wouldn't have felt comfortabledoing that.
But a part of even saying nosome of the other things that
(45:49):
can be really helpful to keep inmind is also practicing being
clear early on, so like ifyou're just want to say a no
this goes back to your exampleof someone that wants to say no
but they're saying yes, butreally you know the three days
later they're gonna say no.
Just practice saying it soonerno, you know, I actually have
(46:11):
too much on my plate, orwhatever it is.
And another thing that peoplecan do is express gratitude for
being asked, and so if someoneasks you something, say, oh, I
really appreciate you thinkingabout me.
Unfortunately, that won't work,whatever it might be, but
sometimes just doing that can bean easier way to be able to say
(46:32):
no.
But along the lines of sayingno, the biggest thing that I
have found is the differencebetween passive and aggressive.
You want the middle part, youwant assertive, so you want it
to be respectful whenever you'resaying no, so it's making sure
that you're doing it in a kindway as well, or respectful way,
(46:55):
and just being more conciseabout what it is that's going on
.
But a lot of times people justhave a hard time even saying
just the word no.
The UnCommon Communicator (47:06):
Yes, yes, yes and no, no, definitely
no, it's not coming out right,but you're right that people
have a hard time saying that.
But I know that there's timeswhen I have negotiated.
You know the deadline and whatis this deliverable?
And it's like you know what?
Because, especially on when Iwas a project manager for a
while, there were some deadlineson some reports that we wanted
(47:27):
in on Monday but in reality theguy wanted to compile them
because Tuesday was histimeframe to do it and he was
presenting it on a Wednesday ora Thursday.
So you're allowed that.
So again back to Philippe'sthing.
Like all deadlines are a liewhen you negotiate.
That he's like you know what hegoes.
I know you're busy.
Get it to me Thursday morning,then I can put it in there and
we'll be fine.
Well, guess what you do whenyou do that to an employee,
(47:49):
cause I'm saying this happenedto me I delivered earlier than
that.
So you get to the point whereyou know that you've been given
this permission.
I'm gonna actually work alittle extra harder on this
other stuff so I can deliverthis, cause you allowed me to do
that, and I think that'simportant part of being able to
have that ability to negotiateand talk about, and then be
(48:11):
given permission by your leaderto say I think it's okay for you
to deliver that a little bitlater.
Well, sarah, this has beenabsolutely fantastic.
I'm so glad that we found thetime to do this.
What I wanna do as we get nearwrapping up, we're gonna zoom in
right here.
Sarah Gonnella (48:28):
All right.
The UnCommon Communicator (48:30):
I always like to have the UC
moment.
The UC moment is the uncommoncommunicator moment where we
look at.
You know, we've been talkingfor almost an hour now.
What is the key takeaway thatwe can give to the listeners
today from our conversation?
Sarah Gonnella (48:44):
Yeah, I think when you feel uncomfortable on
what you should say, whetherit's no or yes, it's taking that
pause and understanding thereal reasons that you might want
to say one or the other.
I think that is where the poweris in understanding the why and
understanding whether the whyis you want to say no and why it
(49:06):
is you wanna say no.
So, understanding your values,understanding the real crux of
it, because sometimes it couldbe fear and those are things
that are sort of an invitationfor us to overcome things.
So understanding, does it alignwith your values?
If it does, then it's probablythe best thing to do is say no.
(49:27):
But if it's fear or somethingelse, that's really because you
don't wanna extend yourselfbeyond your who it is you are.
Then sometimes saying yesactually can help you grow
instead of saying no.
The UnCommon Communicator (49:42):
So say no the why, and then say the
no or the yes, but that's likeI mean, yeah, the growth is on
the other side of that.
Maybe that's your limitingfactor, but I think that's a
great wrap up of that is knowthe why, right, know what
purpose is behind it, and thenlet your nose be nose and let
your yes be yeses.
That's great.
(50:03):
I think that's a fantastic UCmoment.
Let's pause for a minute here.
And how can people get ahold ofSarah?
How did we meet, yeah, and howwould you like other people to
connect with you?
Sarah Gonnella (50:13):
Yeah.
So for those that might want tocheck out a little bit more on
Boy Bass, which stands for bringout your bad ass self, we
actually do a live stream everyFriday at 930 AM Eastern time,
so you can come there.
You can also connect to me onLinkedIn, and then James and I
(50:33):
are actually a part of a groupcalled the no BS Tribe and
that's how we actually connected, and so check them out as well
if you're not familiar with them.
The UnCommon Communicator (50:44):
I'll throw all of those into the
show notes.
Definitely.
Those are all great connections.
Check out your podcast.
It's amazing.
I don't.
I try not to say the bad words,but it's allowed on this show
because you're really doing,you're emphasizing people,
you're empowering people withthat podcast and that's what I
think is so powerful.
When you do that and there's noother way like you can't tone
(51:04):
that down bring out your own badperson.
I mean, you have to be your badass self.
Right, you have to use thosewords.
I said it, the uncommoncommunicator said it.
I might edit myself out later,but that is all we got.
And so let's one more time.
A recap on the UC moment isreally know your why and say
your no, that's what I'm gonnacall it and that's all we've got
(51:25):
.
See you, bye, music.
I'm going to talk right down to us and I'll
hang with everybody here and caneasily understand.
The UnCommon Communicat (00:06):
Welcome to the Uncom communicator
podcast, where we bringenlightenment to the topic of
communication.
Are you ready to take ownershipof your conversations?
Are you looking to possess theskills to navigate and
facilitate conversations to amutual understanding?
What are you waiting for?
Have your growth mindset andlet's go.
Welcome everybody to thisweek's show.
(00:35):
This week, I am so excited tohave Sarah Ginella with me.
Sarah, why don't you introduceyourself to us?
Introduce us to our listener.
Sarah Gonnella (00:43):
Perfect.
Good evening, james.
It's great to be here.
Thank you for having me.
My name is Sarah Ginella and Iam a partner and VP of Full Sail
Partners and I overseemarketing and sales for the
company, but I'm also theco-host of a live stream and we
(01:04):
focus on breaking negativethoughts and habits and focusing
on helping to build each otherup and encouraging fearless
authenticity.
So a part of today that's goingto be part of our topic is
helping people to be fearless inthe power of no Right.
The UnCommon Communicator (01:24):
Yes, we are going to be talking
about the power of no.
What first really connected us,really had to do with the power
of now.
Like, we talked a little bitabout that.
We met on LinkedIn.
We're going to drop the W.
That's what we're going to dotoday and talk about no, and
it's been an interesting ridefor us.
Like this is our second goaround.
I'm all willing to accept it.
I had some internet issues andwe're like, let's go back at
(01:47):
this and then, going back at it,probably the best thing for me.
It allowed me a little bit oftime to think about what and how
we address the word no.
Now let's talk about no.
We had originally a discussionabout the importance of it and
we had kind of different takeson it and we're going to talk a
little bit about that.
(02:08):
But when we talk about the wordno, like what kind of feelings
come from you when we talk aboutthe word no?
Sarah Gonnella (02:15):
Yeah, so the word no is really two simple
letters and it's also one simpleword and it is a complete
sentence as well, and a lot ofpeople don't understand that
people can simply say no andmove on.
But what I have found is that alot of people sometimes have
very difficult times saying theword no, and it can be a very
(02:40):
powerful word.
But I've also found that aspeople start to use the word no,
they start to learn also how tosay yes without saying no as
well.
The UnCommon Communicator (02:54):
And we talked a little bit about
that, because the yes fallinginto yes isn't a great thing
either, and I think that's whatdrives us to this discussion
about the power of no, andthat's something.
Let's pause on that for aminute, because being a people
pleaser, being somebody whoalways wants to give people what
they want, a lot of times weI'm throwing myself in there,
(03:16):
like I want to make sure thatpeople are happy with the
product that I'm bringing, witheverything, so I have a hard
time saying no, but also yes hascreated a lot of havoc in my
life.
So learning to say no issomething that is not natural
for.
Do you think?
Half of us, a lot of us.
Sarah Gonnella (03:35):
I think a lot of us, and I think the word
pause that you used was the keyword.
It is taking a pause tounderstand.
In the moment when you have anemotion and you're not sure
which way you should go yes orno it's having that pause and
understanding, okay.
Well, what's going on here.
Why am I feeling thisparticular way?
(03:58):
Because a lot of times, what'spacked with having difficulty
saying no is that maybe you haveguilt.
Like you said, you're a peoplepleaser and so there's maybe
fear of disappointing someone ormaybe someone not liking you.
And I think that when we thinkabout in the past, when we grew
(04:21):
up, it's we were taught early onthat we should listen to adults
, we should always do the thingsthat they say, that we're told
to behave a particular way andwe're told that authority
figures we should always do whatit is they are telling us.
(04:42):
So we've actually been taughtnot to say the word no, but we
have been taught in a lot ofways to say the word yes.
The UnCommon Communicator (04:53):
Well , and that's something.
So you're right, this is almosta culture thing, but also just
being raised in.
A lot of societies are likethat.
You're raised to do your thing.
Some are stricter than others,but, yeah, you have to say yes
all the time.
No is never an acceptable thing.
And how to do no effectively?
Because when I look at the ideaof yes and no, a lot of times
(05:16):
there's a thing calledcounterfeit yeses.
That's something in negotiationwhere somebody will say yes
just to get you to move on, getyou out of their office, get the
guy off the phone.
Yes, it's fine, I'll be there.
And that on the other side wehave to look at because of that
mindset we're looking at, isthere counterfeit no's in there
as well?
(05:36):
And I think the key whereyou're going to is we have to
say them effectively, like Sam,with real meaning behind them.
Sarah Gonnella (05:46):
Yeah, absolutely.
And so when we start to look atno, it's really evaluating your
gut.
And so what you said is thatwe're saying yes, but it's just
to get it off the plate or tojust agree, even though that's
not where our heart is.
So when we start to practicesaying no or even yes, you can
(06:06):
really do that easily by havinga gut check.
And so it's just askingyourself how do I feel in this
particular moment?
And what I have found is, whenyou feel uncomfortable saying
yes, that is a moment to pauseand say, okay, well, why am I
(06:29):
feeling this way?
Or do I feel obligated to dosomething?
Because I feel maybe guilty ifI don't do that?
And you start to look at peoplewithin your life and the people
that you feel like you need tosay yes to.
So when we think about thosethings your boss, your spouse
you know the responsibilities orthe things that you have going
(06:53):
on in your life, that you wantto please your kids, you want to
please all of these people, butsometimes you get overloaded
and you need the ability to beable to set some healthy
boundaries.
Okay, this is what's importantto me.
Here are my values.
This is why I should do this,and that's really where the
pause comes into play isunderstanding and doing a gut
(07:15):
check to understand.
Am I just trying to do this toplease someone?
Or, you know, is this request,for example, crossing my
personal boundaries?
So it's asking that question.
The UnCommon Communicator (07:28):
Well , so you said boundaries and I
think that is probably one ofthe keys right to really
understanding the no and the yes.
And I think, if we can, this isalmost going to be a paradigm
shift of the fact that if we'reraised a certain way, so are
others raised the other way.
So there's people out therethat don't think no means no and
(07:49):
where does no mean no?
Because there's a negotiationsubsec that's out there saying
no begins the negotiation.
I mean, this is what Chris Vosssays in negotiation
specifically, but he's notsaying no means no.
Now you have a very clear storyon why no means no and how does
no mean no apply and when.
Sarah Gonnella (08:10):
Yeah, I mean and I can understand in a
negotiation hostage situationyou're needing to get that
person to a yes.
But I can tell you frompersonal experience
understanding that no means nois super important.
And so, growing up, one of thethings that a lot of times
(08:31):
people had a part of their lifeis oh, you should give grandma
or you should give uncle a hug,or you should.
Even if you feel uncomfortable,you're still almost obligated
to give that person a hug, andone of the things that I've
really found is that weshouldn't do that because we are
(08:51):
actually impacting people'sconsent and ability to be able
to say no and that can actuallybe very harmful.
And I'm case in point.
Growing up, I ended up having tolearn how to say no, because
whenever I was young, I wasactually molested by my cousin
(09:15):
for a year and then later on inlife I ended up finally going
and getting some real help and Iended up going into inpatient
mental institute because I washaving feelings of suicide.
And what I found in that is theygave me a book called how to
Say no when you Really Want toSay yes, and for me, I wasn't
(09:37):
involved in drugs, I wasn'tinvolved in mischief or things
like that.
I was actually saying yes toalmost everything, so I was
overloading myself in doing,doing, doing in order to forget
and not deal with what it isthat I was dealing with.
So I had to actually have amental mind shift and I really
(09:57):
didn't learn this until muchlater, in the power of no, and
why no can be so important tomake sure that you are safe.
And so, if we go back to yourquestion about boundaries, the
difference is boundaries keep ussafe, much like physical
boundaries.
So you think about a fence andit's meant to keep people in and
(10:20):
it's a particular boundary.
Well, the same thing can applyto our, our mental health, you
know.
So those expectations give noproperty line to another person,
but the boundary is what youset in, what it is you're going
to do to instill that boundary.
The UnCommon Communicator (10:40):
Well , and thanks so much for sharing
that story, because that reallydrives home.
It helps me understand a littlebetter why no is so important.
Really understanding boundaries, too is who owns those?
I mean, I understand, ifsomebody can set boundaries,
then we need to respect them,but how do we set boundaries?
Sarah Gonnella (11:03):
Yeah.
So I think part of it isunderstanding your values first
and foremost, and so we have tounderstand our physical
boundaries.
And I'll give you an example ofthat.
So my daughter growing up infifth grade, she decided that
she did not like hugs.
Well, as a mom, that's superhard Like I want to hug my
(11:25):
daughter and so but I also knewthe importance of that boundary.
She said I'm really not ahugger.
So I said, okay, here's whatI'm going to do.
This is going to be super hardfor mom, but I also respect the
boundary that you're setting andwhat it is that you're asking.
So, instead of just giving youa hug, I will ask you.
(11:46):
I will say can I get a hug?
And you can say yes or you cansay no, and I will do whichever
it is that you stated and whatthat does is that really
instills within someone thatthey have the ability to have
consent over their physical body.
Now keep in mind, probably likesix months later, all of a
(12:07):
sudden she was a hugger againand now she hugs me all the time
.
But the fact that I ended uprespecting her and respecting
that boundary provided thattrust, and that is what really
boundaries are about.
It's establishing healthyrelationships with people, and
keep in mind that it can bespiritual, it can be mental, it
(12:29):
can be any.
There are multiple types ofboundaries, so when we think
about things in what isimportant to us, it's
understanding what is importantto us from a value perspective,
and then it's letting someoneknow what that expectation is.
Now, if that person crossesover that boundary, then we have
(12:50):
to learn how it is that we thenhave the conversation and let
them know.
Look, this was something that Ihad stated to you, but this is
what I'm going to do.
I'm not expecting you to now doanything.
I'm letting you know the nexttime this happens.
This is what I will do.
The UnCommon Communicator (13:08):
And tying this to communication,
which everything, everythingties to communication.
What an easy podcast, right?
I picked the most common topicyou could ever.
Everything ties to it.
But boundaries are big in allof our conversations and what
you're talking about is acommunication technique.
It divides, its protection, youknow.
It's a shield, it's whateveryou want to call it.
It's the ability to have thecontrol for yourself, to be in
(13:30):
your now, right now, to say I amin control of this by placing
those boundaries.
So I think that's, I think thisis just really brilliant in
bringing out in regards to, toconversation, communication and
all of that.
But this one here, like youknow, we had this start and the
stop and it really created anopportunity for me to reflect on
(13:51):
our conversation that we had,and it was.
It took me a while, like Iprocessed, for I have a very
long commute into work today, onMondays, and it took me some
time to really think about, like, why?
What is the connection betweenthe nose?
Like there is because I wasseeing no on the negotiation
side.
You're seeing no from the sidethat you just shared, which is
(14:13):
completely personal andabsolutely a power, you know,
position of strength.
And then it kind of came to meand so the whole idea is there's
there's two notes, at least two, we're going to stick to today.
But the no of refusal, that'swhere because I, looking at
negotiation, like no starts anegotiation.
That means no doesn't mean no.
I'm like wait a minute.
(14:33):
But if there's a no of refusal,if somebody says no, that is no
means no, that's it.
That should be a one done,you're out, forget about it.
But the one thing on the noside I think that really has
brought me into really talkingabout communication and really
wanting to bring value to peoplewho feel underserved,
(14:56):
underspoken, who don't speak upfor themselves and that's why I
bring up this whole topic ofcommunication is the no of
dismissal.
And that's the one, I think,where you look at somebody who
is just dismissed.
Why?
Because they're a woman,because they're a man, because
they're short, because they'retall, that doesn't matter.
(15:18):
People are dismissed.
And when they're dismissed,those are the communication
responsibilities, notresponsibilities, the
communication skills that wewant to give to people to be
able to speak up for themselves,and I think that's the other
side of that.
No, when you're told no in a wayof dismissal, which, to me,
when we're in a group, if youand I are chatting and I've
(15:41):
shared this on the podcastbefore and somebody comes up, I
immediately bring them, andsometimes there are people who
don't have any it's a nice wayto put it.
They had no social practice toknow that somebody just walked
up and you ignore them.
I've been that person and tonot acknowledge them, so that to
me is a dismissal in a way.
(16:02):
How do we bridge that gap?
And so that's the other side ofthe known for me, like, all
right, that's something thatSarah and James can work on,
Like we can work on a way toreally bring about.
You know, no means no.
To me that's easy, especiallyin you know, if I go on a bar or
whatever, all those situationsyou know, typically they're
talking about leading tosomething you know sexual, that
(16:22):
somebody doesn't want to do, ordrinking, or whatever it might
be.
No means no, but talk aboutdismissal.
Have you been in places whereyou've felt dismissed by a no?
Sarah Gonnella (16:35):
You know, whenever I think about that, I
think it all depends on thesituation and, as we have
discovered it, it very muchdepends on the situation, like
in the negotiation hostagesituation.
You're not wanting to reallyaccept that.
No, because people's lives areat stake.
When it is a boss that isdismissing or a coworker that's
(17:00):
dismissing another person's idea, that can be very detrimental
as well.
What we don't know is what's inthe other side, why it is
they're saying no, because, keepin mind, most of the time it
has to do with potentially fear,fear of what you know, fear of
extra work, you know, fear ofchange, fear of, and so a lot of
(17:23):
times it's maybe approachingthe situation or the topic again
to better understand where thepotential barriers might be.
And sometimes what I have foundis when someone simply gives me
a no and they give it to mequickly like there's something
there.
So I feel like I need to sortof respect them.
(17:45):
But if they're saying, forexample, no, you know, we've
always done it this way, okay,well, you know, those are the
seven most expensive words rightthere in business is no, we've
always done it this way, and so?
So you then have to figure outokay, well, how can I now figure
(18:05):
out a way to be able to helpthis, understand the person,
understand the benefits.
But when you say no, thebenefits of sometimes saying no,
is because one I might be burntout or it doesn't align with my
goals, or you know, I need selfcare, I just have too much
going on right now.
Or maybe, like in business forexample, I say no sometimes to
(18:29):
clients and I say you know what?
We're not a good fit.
So I think you know it's allcontext and it's all depends.
But for me, when someoneadamantly says no, I have to
sort of respect them becausethere's something there that
they are feeling uncomfortableand if they're that adamant in
quickly saying no, then it.
(18:51):
Then they're sort of, you know,shutting it down and I need to
sort of respect it.
If they're saying no, I don'treally want to do that.
That to me is sort of aninvitation that they're still
wavering.
It's not a definite no.
Does that make sense?
The UnCommon Communicator (19:06):
Yeah , completely.
And when you talked aboutpeople saying no, quickly happen
enough, I don't think.
And so you have a practice atyour business, where you have
people practice.
No, tell me more, telleverybody about that.
Tell me about my first week Icome in.
This is my first week on thejob.
(19:26):
How are you going to onboard me?
Sarah Gonnella (19:29):
I got you.
Well, this was actually withsome specific individuals that
they had identified that theywere people pleasers and
specifically me being theirsupervisor.
The last thing I want are, yes,people.
And so, for me, one of the bestways that I was able to
(19:53):
identify how to help them is Ineeded them to feel comfortable
saying no.
And so one particular person Iended up going to them and I
said, okay, I have an exercisethat I want us to try.
And I said, for the next week,I want you, every time I come to
(20:15):
you, to say no.
And this person was like whatare you doing to me?
Because they're like alreadyuncomfortable with me, even
requesting that.
And I said they go, am Isupposed to say no now?
And I'm like I started laughingand I said okay, here's the
thing I said.
One of the things that you saidthat you I want to work on is
(20:35):
that you're a people pleaser andthat you tend to add a lot of
things to your plate or say yesvery quickly because you want to
please people.
You, you, but you.
Sometimes that can impact us,as you have seen with with being
over, I burnt out, and that'snot one of the things that we
want, we want in our company.
(20:56):
So whenever I told her that Iended up doing some different
things where I would go to herand I gave her an unreasonable
item that she was An expectationthat I had of her, it was over
the weekend.
There was a client, we hadanother employee out and I said,
hey, I found out theinformation I need for you to
(21:20):
send this person an email.
She's like okay, I'm drivingright now.
Mind you, this is on theweekend.
She's like can I, can I do this?
You know, whenever I get a getback and I said no and she was
like gosh.
She's like what do you want meto do?
And she was like stressing andI'm like look, you know, we had
this conversation.
(21:40):
No, sarah, I, you know.
You don't even have to say no,I can get to that on Monday when
I get back to work.
That's all you have to say.
So you don't even have to sayno, yes, I got that, I'll get it
on Monday.
And then if I have a problemand I needed it that that
weekend, for whatever reason, itwas an emergency we can do that
(22:01):
.
But I've had other employees,for example and this is with
clients that they feel obligatedthey must take care of
situations immediately, and Isaid so.
Did the clients say that theyneeded it done immediately?
They were like I don't knowthey, but they reached out to me
and I said okay, so when aclient comes to you, ask them,
(22:23):
say, hey, right now it lookslike my schedule is about two
weeks out.
I want to find out, is thissomething you need done
immediately, that I need to tryto find someone to be able to
help you, or is it okay if we,you know, schedule this in two
weeks and they're like, oh no,you know, two weeks is fine, and
so it's just having thatconversation, when, in actuality
(22:45):
, they have almost an assumptionor they feel obligated that
they need to immediately respondor do things With.
With people and I've seen thisall the time, and you may have
seen this at your boss send youout something at 9pm and you're
like crap, I need to respondback to that.
Well, no, you don't.
You can simply say the nextmorning hey, I saw you sent me
(23:07):
an email at 9pm last night.
Just wanted to let you knowthat after 6 o'clock and night,
you know I'm done for theevening and I will be sure to
pick those up in the morning.
You now have simply set theexpectation and the boundary.
The UnCommon Communicator (23:23):
You were.
You're setting boundaries, butI'm listening to you.
I'm like now I would respond.
I need to work on that.
That's certainly something.
I'm like six, I'm still working.
What are you talking about?
But it's something that you,that you touched on, that I
think is really important totalk about, is the idea of you
know that feeling to be able tosay no for one, but also To have
that conversation with aboutdeadlines.
(23:45):
There's my friend, philippe,engineer man Rikas says all
deadlines are a lie, likethey're there.
I've seen, I've seen teams inmultiple companies where they'll
get a deadline and you workjust all weekend to get it and
the client's like I mean, theydidn't, they, we wanted to react
, we wanted to react and pleasethem, get to it, but it really
(24:07):
wasn't that important.
And I've heard these words likeit could have waited, like they
didn't know that you went intoemergency mode.
And that's what I love is havethat clarifying question of you
know, is this a true deadline?
At least, have that, you know,up front conversation, unless
you got time for it.
But I'm going to tell youpeople who are people pleasers,
they're going to find the timeand it's going to be the time
(24:29):
that they take away from theirfamilies.
It's going to be time that theytake away from themselves.
So that's, you know, notnecessarily even a good one, is
to look at just the time, but tolook at, you know, that
boundary and that respect,because that's exactly it.
You hear the opportunity to beable to say does you know, can
it wait till Monday?
And a lot of times it's like ohyeah, and I've seen that, like
(24:50):
recently on a couple of things.
It's like oh yeah, I didn'tneed it right away, but the
words, your tone, you know, yourposition, all said to me that
this needed to happen right now.
And when you talked about aboss, we like I'll clean up the
words, this is a G rated podcast, but I guess it's called
Seagull managing now where thebird comes around and we use the
(25:12):
different words on how theyjust poop on your head and then
go home.
Well, I, we had boss.
I had a boss like that and itwas always like two o'clock on a
Friday.
You know he go down and he's areally fast typer and he'd shoot
out all these things and needthis report and he this and he
that and he that.
And then like it's like, oh,what a week I feel great, I'm
done early, and then he'd split,because then he just dumped all
(25:35):
that.
I mean he was done and then hedumped that stuff and that.
Those were things where it'slike, man, I'm gonna be here
till four or five o'clock atnight because I don't want to
take it home, and so those arethe things where, you know,
looking back at it, you know youreally need this by Monday
morning at 7am.
You know, no, I'm not gonna lookat it till the end of the day.
Okay, then I can put it aside.
And then that goes back to thatboundaries.
(25:55):
I own them.
Like I have to decide, you know, like when I decide I'm gonna
stay late, just so I don't haveto work on it on the weekend.
That's my choice.
Maybe not a great choice, notlet it go until Monday and work
on it on Monday sometimes, no,but that's, I think, the key in
finding, you know, finding thoseboundaries.
Sarah Gonnella (26:16):
Yeah, and I also think that a lot of times,
with someone that's yoursupervisor or someone that has
that authority or that basicallyalmost control, in some ways,
of the money that you're goingto make and your career and all
of those types of things, we wefeel that we have to please this
(26:37):
person.
We have to make sure that we'rewe're doing what we need to do,
and one of the things that wehave really focused on I say it
all the time at the verybeginning I said this no is a
complete sentence.
So if you are feelingoverloaded or overworked,
whatever it is, we simplyrequest that you communicate,
(26:58):
and we do this across the boardas well.
So I had an employee that evenasked me well, what am I working
hours?
And I said, well, what hours doyou need to work to get your
job done?
And I said to make sure thatyou're communicating, you know,
with, with your clients, withyour coworkers, things like that
.
She's like oh, so just be anadult, like yes, that's what we
(27:18):
expect is for people to be anadult and for us to also be able
to say no, because we don'tknow what's going on in their
life.
And that's the biggest part isthe human element of what all
might be going with going onwith them.
So a lot of times, people willhear me and I'll say I'm going
to get a massage, like I havefigured out that my body and my
(27:41):
mind sometimes needs to shutdown in order to revive myself,
and so on.
You know, almost every sixweeks on a Saturday, I tend to
do it, and sometimes I'm notable to.
I go get a massage because Iknow that that's something that
I need.
But when you also think aboutthe career aspect, when a boss
(28:04):
is asking you to do something,is that an alignment with your
goals?
You know, is that something?
Now?
Keep in mind, for me, it'salways stepping up.
We were always trying to helpeach other.
That's ultimately what it'sabout.
But if I'm asking or someoneelse is asking them to do
something that really isn't analignment with what their goals
(28:25):
are, shouldn't we be raising ourhand and saying, hey, you know,
just want to check in on this.
You know to for us to get analignment on things, and that's
a lot of times what what theknow and the boundaries are
about is making sure that youwere in alignment from a
communication perspective.
The UnCommon Communicato (28:44):
That's the whole thing.
Right is being able toeffectively communicate.
A know that is a no, a yes thatis a yes, and then you know we
talked early about that pause,but I think that's where we end
up.
We hear so many counterfeitknows and counterfeit yeses,
like how many times has somebodysaid you know, yes, to get you
out of the office?
I'll be at the office mixer onThursday, no problem.
(29:06):
And then, because it's Mondayand they know between now and
Thursday that they're going tocome up with a reason that they
don't have to know be some kindof work related thing, right.
Sarah Gonnella (29:15):
Would you?
The UnCommon Communicato (29:16):
rather her to know.
But it is, and I haven't beenin a work situation for a long
time that I wasn't there tomanage myself, just kind of like
I've been at work.
They've let me be an adult fora long time.
You know what I'd have to askwhat are my work hours?
Because what have I do?
I probably work longer hours,ultimately, anyways, because I'm
driven to get my my job done.
So there is that driven part ofit expectation that you have,
(29:40):
and we all know the people thataren't producing, because you
just want people to go in and dotheir job and then go home, no
matter what time is.
So but I know this, like it'sbeen years.
Like I said, I haven't had aboss, but I know it's out there.
So you know that's the wholekey is giving people opportunity
or tips on how to create thoseboundaries and how to have a
(30:01):
good no and a good yes and bewilling to stand to that,
because there is and we can'tget ourselves.
And I think you you sounds likeyou're in a great organization.
I work for a great organizationthat lets me manage.
You know my time as well too.
But there's people out there whoare no could mean they lose
their job, and you know it'seasy for me to sit in.
(30:21):
You know my direct deposit topaycheck, to say you know, you
know you shouldn't have to bethere, but those are real.
You know I worked paycheck topaycheck for a lot of years,
worked hourly, my wife stayedhome watch the kids, and so he
missing those days.
You, you put up with a lot ofstuff that you shouldn't have.
Looking back at it.
You know, and that's one thingis, how do you encourage people
(30:42):
to be able to set thoseboundaries, to set themselves
first, because at some point,you know, it's kind of like this
podcast, like it was a.
It wasn't going well when wetried it, my internet wasn't
working.
You know, this year we're havingjust a deeper, better
conversation.
Maybe it's the same thing withyour.
You know the company you're in.
You think I can't afford toleave.
Well, maybe you can afford notto.
(31:03):
If you're going to go, peopleare going to respect you because
you're not out there lookingand I was there.
I mean you.
Just you kept working in thatjob because I needed that
paycheck to come in.
But how do you do that?
How do you?
How do you encourage people tobe able to create those
boundaries that could, it couldaffect their paycheck?
Sarah Gonnella (31:20):
Yeah.
So I'll give you an example ofa conversation that I had with
someone.
One of the things that somarketers were a lot of times
very it's a very thinkless jobin a lot of ways.
So, especially in the AECindustry, you're doing proposals
.
I remember doing proposals attwo o'clock in the morning,
(31:42):
getting things done, and I hadthis person that said I need
more staff members and I can'tget my leadership to understand
that I need more people and I'mafraid I'm going to lose people.
I'm not going to have enoughpeople Then then it's become,
going to become even worse.
(32:03):
So my suggestion to them wasthink about things from their
perspective.
So when we think about thedifferent types of people and I
think that's what ends up beingimportant and so I I said you
know, from an executive, they'retalking about growth.
You know, so it's it's eitheryou're going to miss out on some
(32:24):
growth or you're going to givethem more growth.
So if you're able tocommunicate it in that way, then
it's that it's in that point.
So, as an example, I said no go.
You know, go, no go.
For example, it was lettingthem know that I'm going to be
doing these go, no goes, and I'mgoing to be evaluating whether
(32:44):
we should or shouldn't be goingafter things.
I'm now starting to set aboundary, because I'm saying
this go, no go.
If it doesn't fit thisthreshold, it is now one not
hitting the growth expectationthat you have to.
It's also I'm dictating, or I'mstating how much workload we
can actually do.
(33:05):
So if I only have three peopleand I know that I can only do 15
proposals a month, whatever itis, I'm now setting the
expectation.
These other ones are going toget cut off.
And her question was well, whathappens?
Whenever he comes back and hesays, well, we have to go after
this, I would say well, let meknow which one I will be
(33:26):
removing from my list.
And she was like OK, but youknow, but, but, but.
And I was just like look, as amanager over other people, it is
actually your responsibility tomake sure that you're helping
your staff, because if youaren't able to step up and say
no, you are now not onlyimpacting yourself, but you're
(33:49):
impacting your entire staffbecause you can't say no.
So think of it in hisperspective, first and foremost
and what's important to him, butshow him that what you're doing
is looking at it based onprofit.
That is what you have hired mefor.
That's goal.
That's alignment and goals.
Your expectation for me to I'mletting you know what I can and
(34:11):
can't do and then if you wantsomething else, then let me know
what.
What it is it is that's goingto go away to the, to the
wayside, because my, myexpectation and my you know what
it is, my boundary is notchanging, but I'm willing to
negotiate which one you want todo.
The UnCommon Communicator (34:30):
So here we are negotiating, but
that so you make a great pointof prioritizing, because that, I
think, comes into play whenyou're going to decide to say
yes or no, or maybe or not.
Now.
I think not now is completelyacceptable to say that and what
you know, what you're talkingabout, like coming in and here's
this, and then it startsgetting piled on.
I've used these words, which iswhat do you want me not to do?
(34:55):
Exactly, it's similar to whatyou said.
I've said those same things.
It's like I can't do all ofthis.
I can't do all of this by theend of today.
I know what my workload is andI can't stay till 9 o'clock
tonight.
What do you not want done?
And it's amazing how, when youreally learn to prioritize and
that's, that's a skill, it's apractice.
It's not always easy for somepeople, but everybody can learn
(35:17):
how to do it you realize thatthere are, you know, is it at
life-threatening level or is itcannot wait till tomorrow?
And there's that range inbetween, and I do it a lot
because I work in, I do scrum.
I've my friend Philippe hastaught me how to do scrum and
when you're doing scrum, whichis a lightweight framework for
problem-solving and for planning.
When you are setting up yourscrum board and you're setting
(35:39):
up your to-do list, you're I'mconstantly prioritizing.
Now this is probably a bad.
I'll tell you how I learned toprioritize.
Like I've ran manpower for alot of years and I'm sorry, but
there's always here's your topemployee and here's your bottom
employee and there's a gradientin between and we've had to do
that, like when we were slow,when I was doing a lot of work
at Miller Coors, like you'd getslow and we had we had to let
(36:02):
people go.
We try to keep them as long aswe can.
That that's how it works.
But that is that's aprioritizing of skill sets, of
you know responsibilities andknow that these people can.
They will go find another jobsomewhere else.
We just we're gonna lose them,like it was bad for us to lose
them and it was bad for them tomove on, but they had other work
.
But that prioritizing is reallythe most important thing for me
(36:22):
to be able to say yes or no.
And then, even with the scrumidea, sometimes, as the product
owner is the guy who's going tobe deciding how this is.
You know where this sits.
Sometimes those prioritieschange.
You know our relationshipschange in what we need, so we're
able to move that up andprioritize, but you still know
what your limitations are at theend of the day or end of the
(36:44):
week and you have to be able tomake those decisions.
And I have put things asidethat suddenly were important
yesterday, that we're suddenlynow the most important thing and
it's amazing how you do allthat.
And you know nobody died, youknow no trains crashed, you know
no snow airplanes, you know whofell out of the sky when you
(37:05):
really look at you know thatidea of prioritizing those yeah.
Sarah Gonnella (37:10):
Well, and the other thing that I would say is
like I had an employee thisweekend.
They reached out to me and theywere like oh I, I woke up in a
panic and here it is Saturday.
I forgot that it was the end ofthe month and that's why you
were asking me to do thesethings.
They were like I worked on itthis today and I'm like why?
I'm like, why are you workingon it?
(37:31):
Like go enjoy your weekend.
Like this wasn't, this wasn'tsomething I was.
You know, this isn't life ordeath, but she was.
She felt obligated still, andyou know and this is another
person, that is a people pleaserthat I'm gonna be working on
and I'm probably gonna do thatsame Thing that I did with the
other person.
All right, we're gonna go awhole week, and the other person
I did like for another week.
I was like you still need somepractice.
(37:51):
It's saying no to me, and so Ithink that it's just so
important.
But one of the things you justsaid is that you can say no,
simply no.
Sometimes people areuncomfortable saying no and you
can say no, I'm afraid I can't,or, unfortunately, I have plans
or you know, I'm not gonna beable to fit this in.
That is saying no, but you canalso do it with a yes, and the
(38:15):
way you said it was almost a yesas well, you know.
So, yes, I can do XYZ, you know, when you know I can make this
a priority.
Which item do you not want tobe a priority?
So you're not saying you can'tdo what they said that they
wanted.
You're just saying somethingelse is gonna have to fall to
(38:38):
the wayside, and that's aperfect example of saying no
with a yes.
Exactly, and that's a greatapproach too If you're concerned
about, you know, losing yourjob.
The UnCommon Communicator (38:49):
It's like, yeah, I would love to do
that, but I can't do all that,and I don't think there's anyone
who wouldn't hear that and say,okay, I get it, and in some
cases that's where they get.
Allow some empathy in there.
What I love that you do is apractice of and also being being
a strong enough leader to sayit's okay to say no.
Not all leaders say that, and Ithink that's an important thing
(39:10):
to do on on a social level, toallow your direct reports and
even people around you to sayit's okay to say no.
You know, I've heard peopleclarify that before, and maybe
in a way that not as I think,not as driven, not as intuitive
as you are purposely training askill, but they say it's okay to
say no.
You know, they give you, theykind of give you that permission
(39:31):
.
I've also heard those exactsame words when it's okay to say
no, we quick, but I prefer younot.
Sarah Gonnella (39:41):
But to understand, and that's where I
think it comes to that havingthat, the ability to do that To
understand, and that's where Ithink it comes to that.
The UnCommon Communicato (39:48):
Having that, the ability to have a
conversation to say, you know,let's, let's prioritize together
and let them make that decision.
I do that a lot as, as I'velearned to the coach learned to
be better, you know, just to bea better, you know, communicator
is to have that conversation toallow those decision, that
decision load To be on somebodyelse.
(40:10):
And when you allow which isbasically what you're doing,
you're not no, but you're sayingokay, what do you not want me
to do?
Because I think a lot of timesCould you mention this too about
your employees, their workload.
I don't think people reallyunderstand their workload in in
general construction they talkabout, you know, a pm Should be
able to run, you know, 50, 60million dollars with the work,
(40:32):
which is just kind of a made-upnumber, because I had because is
it 50 million on one job or isit 51 million dollar jobs?
Mm-hmm.
I was approached by my formerboss when we're working in small
projects and he says well, Iwant to grow this division to be
a hundred million dollardivision.
How many superintendents do youneed?
I mean, there's an actualquestion he asked me.
I said oh, that's easy, and Idid do this too, so that's easy.
(40:54):
Um, is it a hundred milliondollar jobs or one 100 million
dollar job?
Because if it's one 100 milliondollar job, I probably need
maybe four or fivesuperintendents, and you know
whatever that staff is gonna, ifit's 100, one million dollar
jobs, and I'm gonna need 100superintendents, and so there's
just this big gap between thatquestion, but understanding that
(41:16):
you know, this is there's.
There's so many, letting himkind of choose that right.
Well, I don't know what.
We just want to grow thedivision.
Well, I can't tell you how manypeople we need until we see the
quantity of jobs that we havein front of us and that's you're
able to process and have thatconversation with somebody to
say, because I could easily havesaid you know, I don't know, 50
(41:37):
superintendents will go getthem.
So I'll go out and get 50superintendents, and then the
work doesn't roll in and then,what you know, I'll get
superintendents sitting around.
That's not gonna happen, not intoday's market, that's for sure
.
Sarah Gonnella (41:49):
Yeah, and I would also add I had one
particular employee that a lotof times I'm very quick, for the
most part because I have toquickly solve Issues, and that's
just a skill set that I've.
I've sort of learned, or maybeit's intuitive, it's just a part
of what I do.
But I had another employee thatI knew that this person was
(42:11):
going to take time.
That's what I had learned fromthem and I was glad that they
didn't feel Obligated to give mean answer.
They would say to me Can I takea moment to Think about this?
I'm like, yeah, absolutely.
And so a lot of times peoplefeel obligated even just to say
or give an answer.
(42:32):
But sometimes, when we aren'tsure in any situation, whether
it's no, yes, giving an answer,just asking for can I get a
moment to reflect upon this, orthe pause, as you said?
And so that's really where thepower is and that's where I have
found that, when I identify allof the different employees in
(42:54):
the things that they're good atand the things that they might
have Weaknesses, in that willimpact their position or the
company, it's my obligation tohelp empower them.
And so a lot of the things thatpeople do day in day out have
nothing to do with the technical.
It has to do with the reallyhard stuff.
(43:14):
It's the communication, it'sthe setting expectations, it's
being in alignment, it's all ofthose types of things and also
understanding the Fear aspect.
Fear is a huge driver for somany things in the workplace
that if I haven't dealt withthat in my personal life Even
(43:34):
just learning how to say no thatthen rolls over into my
business life.
So I can't emphasize enoughthat it's important that we
really understand employees froma human perspective and the
things that that maybe they'restruggling with, but it really
has to do with maybe somethingpersonal within their life.
That's really where I havefound I'm able to empower people
(43:57):
is really understanding what'sgoing on in their life in
general in general, and thenthat does affect workload.
The UnCommon Communicator (44:04):
But knowing that, being empathetic
towards that, that's reallyreally huge.
I mean that's what a brilliantway to manage your people.
Because back to that workloadthing, when you look at so I was
saying 50 million or 51 milliondollar jobs there's this
perception that somebody'srunning smaller projects, that
they should be running $40million worth of job at that
(44:25):
level of project manager andthat's not accurate because I
was on a small job that had, say, it's, $4 million.
It had 27 or 26, I think,subcontractors on the project.
There was also another jobbeing run that was about $40,
$50 million.
It had one more.
Like the contract.
I mean all of those things doesnot dictate the workload of your
(44:47):
employee.
You have to understand whatthat is and then add in there
you know what his dog died, orhis mom's not well, or his
wife's sick, or the kids havewhatever and to be able to
understand that and beempathetic towards that and know
that those things are factorsthat are gonna affect quality of
work, they're gonna affecttheir response of stuff.
(45:08):
So I think that's really one ofthe things maybe driving down
and understanding the power ofno from a leadership perspective
is having that empathy to knowthe background to what may be a
yes or a no or a maybe, to knowthat there is that background,
that thing that's in thebackground.
Sarah Gonnella (45:26):
Yeah, I agree.
You know, the biggest thing Ithink with practicing saying no
is one doing just that,practicing it.
And what I loved about theexercise that we did is I was
giving this person permission tosay no when they probably
wouldn't have felt comfortabledoing that.
But a part of even saying nosome of the other things that
(45:49):
can be really helpful to keep inmind is also practicing being
clear early on, so like ifyou're just want to say a no
this goes back to your exampleof someone that wants to say no
but they're saying yes, butreally you know the three days
later they're gonna say no.
Just practice saying it soonerno, you know, I actually have
(46:11):
too much on my plate, orwhatever it is.
And another thing that peoplecan do is express gratitude for
being asked, and so if someoneasks you something, say, oh, I
really appreciate you thinkingabout me.
Unfortunately, that won't work,whatever it might be, but
sometimes just doing that can bean easier way to be able to say
(46:32):
no.
But along the lines of sayingno, the biggest thing that I
have found is the differencebetween passive and aggressive.
You want the middle part, youwant assertive, so you want it
to be respectful whenever you'resaying no, so it's making sure
that you're doing it in a kindway as well, or respectful way,
(46:55):
and just being more conciseabout what it is that's going on
.
But a lot of times people justhave a hard time even saying
just the word no.
The UnCommon Communicator (47:06):
Yes, yes, yes and no, no, definitely
no, it's not coming out right,but you're right that people
have a hard time saying that.
But I know that there's timeswhen I have negotiated.
You know the deadline and whatis this deliverable?
And it's like you know what?
Because, especially on when Iwas a project manager for a
while, there were some deadlineson some reports that we wanted
(47:27):
in on Monday but in reality theguy wanted to compile them
because Tuesday was histimeframe to do it and he was
presenting it on a Wednesday ora Thursday.
So you're allowed that.
So again back to Philippe'sthing.
Like all deadlines are a liewhen you negotiate.
That he's like you know what hegoes.
I know you're busy.
Get it to me Thursday morning,then I can put it in there and
we'll be fine.
Well, guess what you do whenyou do that to an employee,
(47:49):
cause I'm saying this happenedto me I delivered earlier than
that.
So you get to the point whereyou know that you've been given
this permission.
I'm gonna actually work alittle extra harder on this
other stuff so I can deliverthis, cause you allowed me to do
that, and I think that'simportant part of being able to
have that ability to negotiateand talk about, and then be
(48:11):
given permission by your leaderto say I think it's okay for you
to deliver that a little bitlater.
Well, sarah, this has beenabsolutely fantastic.
I'm so glad that we found thetime to do this.
What I wanna do as we get nearwrapping up, we're gonna zoom in
right here.
Sarah Gonnella (48:28):
All right.
The UnCommon Communicator (48:30):
I always like to have the UC
moment.
The UC moment is the uncommoncommunicator moment where we
look at.
You know, we've been talkingfor almost an hour now.
What is the key takeaway thatwe can give to the listeners
today from our conversation?
Sarah Gonnella (48:44):
Yeah, I think when you feel uncomfortable on
what you should say, whetherit's no or yes, it's taking that
pause and understanding thereal reasons that you might want
to say one or the other.
I think that is where the poweris in understanding the why and
understanding whether the whyis you want to say no and why it
(49:06):
is you wanna say no.
So, understanding your values,understanding the real crux of
it, because sometimes it couldbe fear and those are things
that are sort of an invitationfor us to overcome things.
So understanding, does it alignwith your values?
If it does, then it's probablythe best thing to do is say no.
(49:27):
But if it's fear or somethingelse, that's really because you
don't wanna extend yourselfbeyond your who it is you are.
Then sometimes saying yesactually can help you grow
instead of saying no.
The UnCommon Communicator (49:42):
So say no the why, and then say the
no or the yes, but that's likeI mean, yeah, the growth is on
the other side of that.
Maybe that's your limitingfactor, but I think that's a
great wrap up of that is knowthe why, right, know what
purpose is behind it, and thenlet your nose be nose and let
your yes be yeses.
That's great.
(50:03):
I think that's a fantastic UCmoment.
Let's pause for a minute here.
And how can people get ahold ofSarah?
How did we meet, yeah, and howwould you like other people to
connect with you?
Sarah Gonnella (50:13):
Yeah.
So for those that might want tocheck out a little bit more on
Boy Bass, which stands for bringout your bad ass self, we
actually do a live stream everyFriday at 930 AM Eastern time,
so you can come there.
You can also connect to me onLinkedIn, and then James and I
(50:33):
are actually a part of a groupcalled the no BS Tribe and
that's how we actually connected, and so check them out as well
if you're not familiar with them.
The UnCommon Communicator (50:44):
I'll throw all of those into the
show notes.
Definitely.
Those are all great connections.
Check out your podcast.
It's amazing.
I don't.
I try not to say the bad words,but it's allowed on this show
because you're really doing,you're emphasizing people,
you're empowering people withthat podcast and that's what I
think is so powerful.
When you do that and there's noother way like you can't tone
(51:04):
that down bring out your own badperson.
I mean, you have to be your badass self.
Right, you have to use thosewords.
I said it, the uncommoncommunicator said it.
I might edit myself out later,but that is all we got.
And so let's one more time.
A recap on the UC moment isreally know your why and say
your no, that's what I'm gonnacall it and that's all we've got
(51:25):
.
See you, bye, music.
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