March 6, 2024 • 50 mins
When was the last time you gave someone your full trust? This isn't just about believing they'll show up on time, but trusting them with the parts of you that you might keep under lock and key. Join us as we sit down with Jennifer Lacey, the 2023 Dallas Business Journal's Woman of the Year in Business, who not only shares her journey through vulnerability and trust but also provides us with an in-depth look at the hard-won lessons in her book, "Lean in Love."
Throughout our conversation, Jennifer peels back the layers on what it means to truly connect with others, whether it's with our children, colleagues, or the person we see in the mirror. From sharing personal tales of grief to discussing the nuance of feedback within our most intimate circles, this episode is a treasure trove of honesty. Trust us, you'll come away from this episode understanding that sometimes the strongest thing you can do is let your guard down and listen, really listen, to what others have to say.
Ending on a practical note, we delve into the concrete ways in which we can build and sustain trust, especially in the workplace. Jennifer, with her rich expertise in continuous improvement, gives us a backstage pass to the leadership strategies that lead to genuine rapport and collaboration. By the time you reach the end of this episode, you'll have gained not just a newfound appreciation for the role of trust in personal and professional growth but also actionable steps to invite more authenticity into your interactions. Don't let this chance slip by to learn from one of the most candid voices on communication and leadership today.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
That's right back to back throwbacks this week.
This week I'm bringing inJennifer Lacey, where we talked
about trust.
It was a great conversation anda cool journey to really
understand how trust has suchvalue in not only our
relationships but also in ourcommunication so important.
But bringing back to back JenLacey and also Jesse, the social
(00:23):
media mogul himself, back toback this week, so please enjoy.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
You want to talk right down to us, and a language
that everybody here can easilyunderstand.
Do you understand the wordsthat are coming out of my mouth?
What Space, one again, space,one again.
I dare you, I double dare you.
What we got here is a failureto communicate.
Speaker 1 (00:52):
Welcome to the Uncommon Communicator Podcast,
where we bring enlightenment tothe topic of communication.
I'm so excited today to haveagain on the show Ms Jennifer
Lacey, known as the famous lady.
She did not give her name toherself.
Now a little bit about Jen.
She's a Texas native with abackground in teaching, and
author and illustrator andco-host of the no BS.
(01:14):
With Jen and Jess.
I think you're the host becauseyou're talking.
You are a conference speaker.
This is huge and I saw this onLinkedIn.
Recipient of the Dallasbusiness journal, 2023 woman of
the year and business award.
That's awesome, thank you.
And the last 20 years you haveworked for Robbins and Morton as
a lean practice leader.
Jen Jennifer, welcome to theshow.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
Thank you very much.
I'm excited to be here.
Speaker 1 (01:39):
Well, we are going to touch again on some more topics
.
I think last time it turnedinto soft skills.
I don't think that'snecessarily, probably even your
best trait, but you're so goodat it.
There's so many other thingsthat you build and trust, so
there's a couple of things Iwanted to jump into Now.
You are also co-author of thisbook right here, lean and Love
(02:00):
with Mr Jesse, somethingHernandez or this guy.
Yes, do you want to talk abouthow this whole book of Lean and
Love came about?
Real quick?
Just kind of, I will try.
Speaker 2 (02:14):
Jesse does a better job, but I will absolutely try.
So he and I crossed paths.
We collided on some lean stuff.
We were on a planning committeefor a Congress for LCI, and me
not willing to sit back and justwatch what's going on.
I went up and we had somereally intense conversations and
then, following that, hereached out and said hey, I've
(02:35):
got this idea, have theseletters and I want to do a live
stream and get people to kind oftalk about some of this stuff
that nobody likes to talk about,and I want to do it with you.
And so we kind of had moreconversations, had some
brainstorming, and then we dovein, did them via live stream,
and then at the end a couple ofthings happened.
Number one is we got a lot ofpeople that jumped in and really
(02:58):
wanted to be a part of thesevulnerable, kind of
uncomfortable things that wewere able to help facilitate
pretty well.
And then people were like weneed more of these type of
conversations.
So that's one thing thathappened.
And the other is that when wefinished with lots and lots of
hours of live stream I'm sureyou know about that that people
were like we would love aCliffsNotes version.
(03:19):
And then Jesse said oh, noproblem, we'll just edit down
and go through all the scriptsand all that and you know his
patience is about this small.
And so he started that and hewent oh, this isn't going to
work.
And so he said hey, what areyour thoughts on putting all
this in a book?
And so we did the live streamsfirst and all of a sudden there
was like oh, let's write a bookand put it all together.
(03:41):
And so, also based on the needfor people to want more of these
conversations, we launched NoBSwith Jyn and Jess platform.
So all of that came from like,just starting with that
conversation.
Speaker 1 (03:54):
That's ridiculous.
And then you're also at whatanniversary right now for that,
oh my gosh this month it'sDecember.
Speaker 2 (04:00):
This month, for two years, where we launched and
every other Saturday morning wedo live streams around
uncomfortable conversations, andat first it was a little bit
geared towards like justconstruction, because that's, we
both are in construction and inthe lean space.
But we realized, and it didn'ttake as long, that half of our
(04:21):
audience are not even inconstruction, and so we realized
that things we're talking aboutare not just limited to the
construction industry, but theyare like world issues and they
are things that every humanbeing that wakes up every day
runs into these type of dilemmasand kind of sometimes, these
frustrations.
And so, two years this month,we will People keep showing up
(04:43):
and so we keep getting to talkabout these things.
Speaker 1 (04:46):
It's amazing how we think of constructions in this
bubble and there's a bubble ofconstruction, but it's.
The problems we face are notunique to the rest of the world,
especially in Even even infinding people to do work, you
know, finding constructionworkers Everybody's dealing with
some kind of mental, you knowhealth issue, which is really
(05:06):
some of the things that we touchon a lot in the no BS tribe, as
well as this wholeVulnerability word that you've
made me stay out loud.
You know, absolutely new.
I keep.
Jesse gave me a pass, I finallyfigured it out and if
vulnerability is only sharingthe stupid things that I've done
so others can get better,that's a level of vulnerability
(05:29):
I'm willing to accept.
That one I'll take.
Speaker 2 (05:31):
Okay, I'll start I.
Speaker 1 (05:38):
Didn't like to say in the word or talking about it,
and you know.
But we're seeing a movement,even within my own company, and
I think that you guys are on theleading edge of it.
You were talking about itbefore.
It was cool.
Really, now, if it's hittingmainstream, hitting companies
that you personally haven'ttouched, where we're talking
about it, then it's reallyhitting something that has found
(05:58):
a nerve and that nerve is rawand it needs healing.
Then the only way to heal it isto really talk about it.
So those are one of the thingsthat you know, you're really
bringing a light to the industryin that and making it okay,
which one of the things that Ireally admire about you is.
I think we're similar in how wehave stuffed our feelings away,
how we shield.
(06:18):
That's probably one of my bestthings that I do is guard those
Feelings.
But you've been able to go pastthat and I mean you've had you
know, very you know difficulttimes in your life growing up,
but how have you really?
What was the turning point,what was your moment of
enlightenment to be able to goto this point of vulnerability?
Speaker 2 (06:36):
well, there's probably multiple, but let's so.
Historically, yeah, and I'mreally, I've been really really
good at the protection.
So you call it shield, I call itprotection, but it's that armor
that, because of ourexperiences, because of our
trauma, because of all the hurt,all the things in our lives
that you know have we've allowedpenetrate, we've realized like
(06:57):
we can control that by just notletting things penetrate and you
know, and that can keep us fromagain getting hurt, things, bad
things happening to us, but italso keeps everything else out
and and so, and we can focus, wecan be successful, we can be
high performing and and andthat's great and we get lots of
accolades for that, but we'realso keeping a lot of good
(07:20):
things out and and so what I'mgonna own this like I mean
within the last Three or fouryears you know it as these
conversations are happening, aseven the stuff that Jesse and I
have done together Like I'verealized like there are a lot of
people out there that live inthat mode, that protection mode,
and then I've got to protectwhat's inside of me and that's
(07:43):
okay at the detriment of what'soutside of me.
And as a mother of two teenagegirls right now, like you know,
one's almost a teenager, theother ones 15.
Like if I, if I show up thatway, both places at human at
work, like how I'm, how, how amI setting a good example for
them?
Right and so, as a mother, likeyou want to be protective and
(08:04):
you want to make sure thatyou're helping them be good
humans, but like I need them tobe.
Also, we understand theimportance of you know being,
you know being real, in thatit's okay to hurt and it's okay
to fail, and it's okay to learnand it's okay to like not be
okay.
And if they don't see that me,how could they possibly be able
to show that to other people?
(08:25):
So that's been that.
I mean, all of that hashappened over the course, but
like that's a driving point asto when I show up and a lot of
my stuff's on the socials, so alot of my stuff's out there and
anyone can watch it, includingmy daughters, and so what am I
doing to be able to be the, toexhibiting the behaviors that I
(08:46):
want?
To make sure I can see it?
Speaker 1 (08:47):
So your moment of enlightenment came in realizing
that you also need to model itfor your children.
So you, they, don't have to gothrough 20, 30 years of
Shielding is that?
Is that right?
Speaker 2 (09:00):
Yes, and it and it's not always easy, and there's a
lot of tears and there's somescreaming and there's some yell.
I mean, like that's parenting,but it's also within the end.
Are they in a place to where,like it's okay to hurt, it's
okay to fail, it's okay to makea mistake, like the world's not
gonna come crashing down?
Because I mean, like we keep,we shield ourselves, you know,
(09:23):
to not make mistakes, to haveall the answers, and Like it's
okay for me to go?
I don't know that like let'slook it up, let's figure it out.
There's not a lot of peoplethat figure that out early.
Speaker 1 (09:35):
Right, yeah, and then that's what I fear I'm on that
path towards where I'm gonnafigure it all out when I'm 90,
right, when I take my lastbreath, maybe a hundred, I don't
know.
I should eat better to livethat long.
But you're right, you want tofigure them out earlier.
I know for us, especially now,because this really does tie to
the no BS tribe and this idea ofdealing with vulnerability is
(09:57):
our family as a history does nottalk about grieving.
Very well, we were terrible atit and and I looked through this
process here recently werecently had to put our dog down
, which was first one, ever, thehardest thing any human could
ever do to make that decision,and you don't realize a
connection that you make withthat.
But having to now deal withthose emotions that I didn't
(10:18):
expect and and having to try tomodel it to my children, who I
haven't shown even how I grievefor my dad Was one, was not at
all, and then for my mom I lostit, like I could not even, you
know, communicate or talkthrough it, and now I've got
McGee to talk about, and sothose are all those steps, those
processes, but although thoseare all come into the idea of
vulnerability, like how muchit's stuffing.
(10:40):
It was so much easier.
Speaker 2 (10:42):
But I find our industry does that, like our
industry does that, like I don'tknow why.
We think like we're dealingwith trauma or we're dealing
with grief, and we then we go towork, and how do we not equate
that every other human beingthat we look at every day and
engage with could also bedealing with With those exact
things?
Speaker 1 (11:01):
Yeah, that's so true, that's so true, so moving.
So one thing I want to do Iwant to talk a little bit about
the book and the reason.
Of course, you're here to talkAbout communication, as this is
what the podcast is all about,but everything kind of weaves
into it as some way.
But when I look through thebook, lean in love.
Beautiful illustrations in hereas well.
You are the illustrator of that.
(11:22):
When I, when I read through itand I read the gen comments I
did I'll tell you this is how Idissected this book.
Like I spoke with Jesse andI've read through his book of
stories, which was just abrilliant, brilliantly put
together has become the promisethat you're intended to be.
But this one here Just kind ofto understand Jen a little bit,
(11:42):
and so I went to your comments,read through them.
What are they always about?
They're about communication,like it's communicating, and
trust, and there's so manythings that that come out from
From what you present.
But this is an interestingstory here and Well, quick
format for our readers.
First off, as you talked about,this was a live stream, so you
(12:03):
took the live stream notes,comments, questions threw them
into a book.
There were five things.
It's really the five s loveletters.
So you took five s scene,turned it into these love
letters and this is how you canwork through relationships and
communication, stuff like that.
So in taking that, goingthrough those steps, you do
there's just blurbs.
Here's quotes like here's somegreat advice, here's a question,
(12:23):
here's some tips and stuff likethat, but here's a story that
you shared.
You can't rush communication.
I have two girls.
One is really good at math.
She is walking me through herdivision problem.
She needs help.
Something is not jiving.
I started to tell her what theproblem was and she said no, mom
, let me walk through theprocess.
As she was walking me throughit, she saw that.
(12:45):
She saw where she hadn'tsubtracted right.
She needed to fix it herself tolearn.
Speaker 2 (12:57):
It does that.
That's one example of athousand of and I've had this
conversation recently with afriend is that, like we want to
make our children's lives betterand we've experienced and we've
done some things that welearned from.
We can help them, but how didwe learn?
We learned by not havingsomeone help us and by having to
(13:22):
figure it out.
Our automatic response is likewe can fix it, we have the
solution.
We have a whole other thingthat Jesse and I do with
emotional bungee jumpers thatit's like I need to allow you to
keep your problem.
It is not my job to take yourproblem away.
Let me ask questions that helpyou be able to get where you
(13:44):
need to be.
It's a prime example of that ofnot being the person to jump in
and fix it, because how wouldthat help her?
Speaker 1 (13:55):
Yeah, we're driven by it.
It's almost super cool.
If you were extreme one way,then you want to go and solve
the problems.
I think Jesse coined the termshanking.
What is it the solution?
Shanking.
That seems the easiest solutionand it's not.
I think that's been one of thebiggest challenges for me is to
let people walk it through andlearn it themselves.
(14:18):
They're going to learn itdeeper and better.
I think that what a greatexample.
However much our kids teach usthat.
But that was such a greatexample of she stopped you.
If she didn't stop you, you'regoing to give her the answer and
she never would have solved iton her own.
That multiplied a billion timesinto everything we do at work.
(14:40):
In fact, for me, I've taken alot of that.
When people come to me withproblems, I used to just give
out the answers, go do this andboom, we're on.
I don't anymore.
I ask them first.
What's amazing is, most of thetime, high percentage.
They already have the answer.
They're coming to you ask you aquestion.
They already have the answer.
Why don't you give me youranswer?
Then we can just cut to thequick and then they own it.
(15:01):
I thought what a great example,but I love that you can't rush
communication.
For me, I'm always like, allright, I know what the next
steps are, let's just get tothem, let's move on.
But you can't.
You have to let it grow.
That was such a great storyillustrating that it had the
word communication, so I had tojump to that one.
No, that's it.
Speaker 2 (15:19):
I just want to add to that.
Justine, I have thisconversation.
A lot is we're busy, our wordsare busy.
We're always in this mode ofwhat's next, all the things
we're trying to cram into ourday, and that busyness makes us
rush communication.
Speaker 1 (15:38):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (15:39):
Because we're not thinking about the moment, we're
not thinking about the personin front of us, we're not
thinking about the issue, we'rethinking about what's next.
That example hit it, hitstraight on.
It's not about what I'm tryingto hurry up and get to after
she's done with her homework.
What are we doing right now, inthis moment?
Do you call me out?
(16:00):
That's what it was.
Speaker 1 (16:02):
Right, right.
What a life lesson for all ofus to learn.
That was just brilliant.
I love that there's another one, of course.
It's titled Keep Communicating.
Of course I gravitated towardsthat one.
Here's another quote from Jen.
There are different ways tocommunicate.
Nonverbal communication is oneexample.
Being clear with what we arethinking and feeling is critical
(16:23):
in guarding against sendingmixed signals.
There's even being able to sayI need to step away or I need
some time Can save the 20,000scenarios we make up in our
heads from happening.
Walking away could dissolve thesituation or feel it.
Speaker 2 (16:43):
Okay, there's a lot of package to that chunk of
words right there.
It's a couple of things.
I think it's more than a coupleof things, but we'll talk about
a couple of things.
Number one is those scenarioswe make up in our head, the what
ifs, based on just ourexperience and the things we've
done.
It's so easy to jump to thingsthat have never happened, that
(17:07):
may never happen.
Those what ifs keep us frommaking progress.
Those what ifs keep us frombeing able to see the potential
of what something could be.
An example of this and it's onespecifically is I love to take
notes.
That is my way to capturethings, but also to get things
(17:30):
out of my head so I can keepadding more things into my head.
I love taking notes.
I take notes pretty much inevery conversation or if I have
a thought or an idea.
I'm like I got to write thatdown because I don't want to
lose it.
I was having a conversation withJesse talking about how I'm
struggling with reflection andthings like that.
I struggle with reflectionbecause I have to stop and I
have to not be moving to be ableto reflect, which is like crazy
(17:52):
.
We were having thisconversation.
He's like well, what do you dohe journals?
I had tried some other things,to no avail, but they did not
work.
I said, okay, I'm just going towalk because I enjoy walking.
I'm going to use that walkingtime as reflection time.
For me, it's like, okay, if I'mgoing to do that, then I'm not
(18:14):
taking any notepads, I'm nottaking any earbuds, I'm not
taking any phone.
I'm going to use that asreflection time.
What I realized in that time isthat I had an idea and I was
like, oh my gosh, I've got towrite this down.
I didn't have anything.
I kept thinking and that ideagrew and grew and grew.
(18:35):
Another idea came from that,another good idea came from that
.
It got so big by the time Ifinished walking that my
reflection, it hit me in my face.
You would have never got thereif you stopped and wrote down
that very first thing, and so tome, it's the inability
sometimes to allow ourselves todisconnect and walk away and get
(18:58):
out of the middle of the chaosso that we can identify or see
something that maybe would havenever happened.
Speaker 1 (19:07):
Yeah.
And so you bring up, I think, akey point in any communication
and really any collaboration,any battle, because I think we
go into battle mode and whenwe're in battle mode we're going
to hit that aggressively untilwe get our point and get out.
But the idea that that's noteffective in communication and I
think that's one of the easiestthing for people to do is to
(19:30):
take a breath and walk away,take time to collect your
thoughts at a high level andyou're going a little bit deeper
in that.
You're saying you do that andthen now you're able to go
yourself into a betterunderstanding of it that you
never would have got to before.
So there's so much and therewas a lot to unpack in that one,
because in fact I was lookingat that thinking, man, this is
(19:52):
probably three or four bulletpoints that thrown out in a you
know, in a quote.
And then it's like all right,let's move on.
And I'm like why am I going to?
Let us?
Speaker 2 (20:01):
Can I add one more?
One more example from justunpackaging from that.
That section is going back tomy daughter.
Is she over things?
And she escalates.
And she, you know, her anxietyskyrockets and so she then
becomes worst case scenario.
And what do you do as a parentwhen your child is spiraling or
your child is not doing well?
(20:21):
You want to fix it and I and inthose moments like I realized I
just want to get to thesolution, I want to get to where
she's better, and I did nothingbut exacerbate it.
And like it took more and moretimes about fueling, and I'm
fueling and I'm fueling it, butI, but I can fix it.
I can fix it because I can fixthings.
(20:42):
So like that was not the way todo it and like I had to remove
myself and I had to allow her toget to a place where she could
even receive Right.
And we don't think about thatwhen we're interacting with
people.
Speaker 1 (20:58):
The other thing too is no, I mean you know your
daughter like you're learningher still.
I mean there's, she's stillgoing to continue to evolve.
But understanding people aswell to knowing that some need
to be in that battle, otherother people need that time to
you know, exchange.
One thing that I've realized isthat I think out loud and
that's good and bad, and I foundlike I have frustrated some
(21:19):
people by just shooting ideasout there and you know I'm like
here's an idea, here's an idea.
He's like slow it down, likeyou wanted to process each of
them.
So we had a really great moment, learning moment for me to
learn him a little bit.
But the thing I learned aboutmyself is that isn't effective
for this individual for sure.
So I have to know how toregulate that and change my
(21:40):
style in doing that.
And this is kind of a sidebaron that, jesse.
I asked Jesse for some feedbackon our interview.
I'm like give me what you tell,give me some little bit of
feedback, and he's loves givingfeedback, which only if you ask
right, and I'm going to change.
But what I found is I clarifymy questions a lot Like, instead
of just asking a question, Ijust clarified and I caught
(22:01):
myself the other day doing itbecause I don't know what I'm
going to ask yet until I haveprocessed it out loud.
So that's, that's something Igot to work on, because I can't,
for the most part, me alwaysclarifying and then getting to
the question.
I should be getting better atpractice in my head for other
people who don't respond well tothat.
(22:22):
So just all that.
It's just an interestingprocess on on how to deal with
all of that.
Speaker 2 (22:29):
But that came from feedback too, which is, we is,
super important.
We know that communication,that having that reciprocal
conversation and having someoneprovide feedback and being in a
place of trust where you couldknow that the person that's
telling you that is coming froma good place and that they are.
You know, they're one of thosepeople that you know are trying
to help you Like that's a bigdeal.
Speaker 1 (22:48):
Well, as we talked about even last weekend in the
live stream.
One thing that, just anotherrevelation for me is I realized
that I, you know I'm my ownworst critic and that's one
reason I haven't been invitingin other people, because I'm my
own worst critic.
Like, why do I need you tocriticize me?
And it's not feedback, is notcriticism.
So that allowing in of peopleto you know, help, guide me and
(23:13):
help me get better has all beendriven off of that issue of
trust.
Do I trust them enough?
But also, for me, taking alittle bit step deeper is to not
let people's opinions, thoughts, whatever, affect me, like I
might have take all I can, butI'm not going to let it put me
in a bunker, in a bad mood oranything.
That mindset alone has allowedme to even get even more
(23:36):
feedback, because before to me,it was always criticism that's
criticizing myself.
Speaker 2 (23:42):
Well, it's the best response.
It doesn't matter how horriblethat you feel from the feedback
is.
Thank you, and it's so simple.
But, like as soon as that's theresponse, it keeps the door
open for more.
Speaker 1 (23:59):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (23:59):
Whether you like.
I mean whether you go to themagain later or not.
But as soon as there's so manypeople and I'm going to tell you
they do this, and it's not evenI don't even think it's
conscious, I think it'ssubconsciously that when someone
says something to you orsomebody gives you feedback,
your responses to defend it andit's not.
It's like you're doing itbecause you're in protection
(24:21):
mode and we just talked.
We talked about that.
You're in protection mode,you're trying to protect
yourself.
But, like then, why did you ask?
Speaker 1 (24:28):
Yeah, and that's that's.
In a situation where you'reasking and getting defensive and
you're in, I would say, even alittle bit level of trust with
somebody, Even then we becomedifferent.
And the one thing I learnedfrom Jaco Wilnick is he talks
about how, when somebody is likecriticizing you hearing the
background or you just hearsomebody just talking bad stuff
(24:49):
about you that there's always agrain of truth in there that we
need to accept.
And once that hit my mind and Ithought, okay, there is a grain
of truth.
Okay, yeah, you're right, I doneed to work on that Instead of
letting that anger me, upset meor hate that person.
It's like, all right, there's agrain and there always is.
There always is a grain oftruth.
(25:09):
Now, if they may be slanted,maybe they're just miserable
people, but there's a grain oftruth in there and if you can
take that, then you becomebetter by learning from that.
Speaker 2 (25:20):
And what I've realized, what's helped me when
I get feedback, good or bad, oreven when it's something that,
like before, would really hurtmy feelings that if someone's
saying it, they believe it, yes,and they in my opinion I can
say they're wrong.
But if they believe it, it'swhat they feel.
Is it wrong?
Speaker 1 (25:40):
Right.
But the other thing and I'vegiven a little bit, I'm trying
to give a little bit more gracein that I tend to.
I'll sometimes say things thatI don't mean either, and so I
want to.
That's why remaining calm isthe best thing to do, to ask a
clarifying question and thenallow that person to say well,
that's really not, I didn'tintend it that way,
(26:02):
Understanding that yourintentions still hurt, and so
you have to be able to pull thatback.
But the idea is, are those theright words that you chose to
use and give an opportunity forthat to maybe steer a different
way?
So there's another quote fromthe book.
There's another.
I don't know if it was Jen ornot, so if they're not Mark, Jen
or Jess, who's writing thisstuff?
Speaker 2 (26:25):
Normally, usually the copy is conversational and so
it's not specific, so it couldit could be in any way.
Speaker 1 (26:31):
Well, this, this one really connected with me because
, in trying to find out what,what, what is my purpose Like,
what is the uncommoncommunicator purpose?
To bring enlightenment to thetopic of communication.
But what's the deeper purposeof that?
And I have really, probably inthe last six months, realized
that I want to help give peoplea voice and I can do that
through learning communicationskills, through learning
(26:53):
techniques, through learning howto be heard is going to elevate
you.
So that has become my, my kindof underlining theme.
I haven't told this to anyonebefore, but that's what I'm
working on and this is what yousaid on.
Let's see, I'm not pagenumbered, page number heart.
People just want to matter.
Speaker 2 (27:13):
Yes, oh yes, that is like and that's burning my soul.
Speaker 1 (27:17):
They want to be heard and that's why I'm like bam,
this is exactly it.
I need to hear Jen's take onthat, because they they want to
matter, but they also to beheard.
You got to speak and, yes,there's a lot of communication
nonverbally, but you need tospeak, you need to be heard.
This is what I was.
You said they want to berespected.
(27:38):
When we go into any interactionand put people first, it will
change the way we approach theconversation, and so we're
focusing on personalrelationships.
Now we save them.
How or I'm sorry, how we savethem, how we stay in them, how
we value them, how we evaluatethem and how to keep them viable
(27:59):
.
It is no different in theworkspace.
People want their work tomatter, to make a difference.
Speaker 2 (28:07):
Tell me more about that one.
Yes, so my story behind this iswhen we think about and I'm
going to use constructionbecause that's the space for you
, I'm not construction.
I don't know many people, andI'm not saying there's not any,
but I don't know many peoplethat wake up in the morning and
they go.
You know what I want to gethurt today.
I don't get hurt so bad that itimpacts the financial.
(28:30):
It has a financial impact on myfamily.
I want to go and I want toscrew up something so bad that I
can lose my job and that Icould hurt somebody else.
I want to go, show up and getin an argument with someone
because I know I'm right that itwill sever a relationship.
I don't know many people thatwake up and think that way.
(28:53):
And so, when we look at it fromthat context, people come into
an environment, a culture, aninteraction and something
whether it's emotional orsomething.
They've got some.
There's got some emotionalbaggage that they're bringing in
, that they're already in thisdefensive mode.
Something happens and, like,the way we react and the way we
(29:14):
respond to things is soimportant.
But not only that whatenvironment and what culture are
we creating when these peoplecome in.
That in my, my, my visual isalways like we don't have people
that come into our constructionsite and they get to the gate
and they take their human hatoff and they put their hard hat
on and they come in and thenthey're just there to produce
(29:36):
outcomes all day long and thathumaneness just doesn't play
into anything.
And then they get to go backthrough the gate, put their
human hat back on and go home.
Like those things don't stayinside and outside the gate,
like they're bringing all thewhatever the things are
happening at home, their issues,any, any health problems,
anything going on there, thatall comes with it.
(29:57):
And then when they're at workand they've had a big fight or
something, somebody got hurt oryou know something went wrong
and they're now they're gonnahave to work later, whatever,
they're not gonna just be ableto shut that down when they walk
back out of the gate.
And so when I say people justwanna matter, like all of them,
the whole human, they want tomatter, not just they wanna make
money and they wanna make suretheir family's okay.
(30:19):
And so when we can look at thatwhole human and that when
they're at work do we only focuson the outcomes they produce or
do we focus on the person?
And I think, historically,because it's construction and
because the outcomes pay thebills, and the outcomes are how
we make money and how we canjudge things and how we can have
(30:42):
metrics and all these thingsthe outcomes are easy to be the
focus, but, like, if we're notshifting our attention and our
engagement and the things thatare important to us into that
human part, to the person that'sdoing the work, like we're
failing.
We're failing ourselves, we'refailing our companies, we're
failing are the people that wework with, because they don't
(31:04):
need to think that that's theway the world works.
Like they are human beings firstand if we focus on that, I've
experienced and when I see thatenvironment put in place, they
do better work.
They get excited about helpingother people and having, like
you said it earlier, they getexcited about sharing and
(31:24):
something they see or somethingthat they saw that they're a
little worried about.
Like for us having thatplatform to be able to go I
don't think that's right or thismay not be safe.
Like when you've createdsomething to where it's okay to
care about the person first.
It is a game changer.
Speaker 1 (31:42):
And big time and looking at it at kind of two
levels here too.
First off, caring about themand who they are, just
acknowledging that.
That's item number one.
Just even hey, jose, how's itgoing today?
That is the first step inknowing everybody on your job,
knowing everybody that they'rehuman, they're there, they have
(32:02):
stuff going on.
I had a carpenter on my jobrecently.
I knew about.
His son came and worked for us.
He joined the Marines duringthat timeframe he worked there
with us.
I had learned about his otherkids and so you learn about all
of that factor.
And he was probably one of themost productive people that I've
had on my job sites and woulddo anything Like well outside of
(32:23):
what would just be his definedscope of drywall studs and
framing stuff like that.
But that's all part of buildingthat relationship.
But the other side of that sothat's side number one
acknowledgement.
But the other part is reallyabout being heard and drawing
that out and that's what I loveabout that.
(32:43):
And again, this is my passionnow is knowing how much is left
on the table.
Because for two reasons wedon't ask.
So you gotta ask.
It's gotta start with leadership.
Leadership has to ask, but alsothey have to be given back to
that, your point of making thatspace open enough for them to
give their opinion.
And that's a tough one to do insome situations because as a
(33:05):
leader those are hard to manageand I'm finding some people
don't have that skill set to beable to say no, like hey, thank
you for sharing that.
But in your mind you're likethat's the worst idea I've ever
heard.
But you have to let them havethat idea, because two ideas
later they're gonna come up withthis huge time saving effort
but all of that.
(33:25):
Those are the part of beingheard, but the biggest part is
the fact that you acknowledgedit.
Speaker 2 (33:32):
They love it when you've released control of the
conversation and to me, like welove to have the agenda and
everything set and this iswhat's gonna happen and I'm
gonna make sure we're stay ontime and you are controlling the
conversation.
As soon as you think that youare controlling the conversation
, you are leaving zero space forthere to be anything that's off
(33:53):
topic, anything that takes youoff road, anything that could
potentially be something amazing.
Like you have completely shutit down because you're trying to
control it and like I mean,like I struggle with control and
I'm a work in progress, forsure, but like it is, like it
(34:14):
controls an illusion.
Like it is an illusion becauseif we're controlling one thing,
we are completely negatingsomething else.
Speaker 1 (34:24):
Yeah, and that is a.
So we're gonna talk a littlebit about trust.
Okay, do it.
But what you're talking aboutfalls right along the line of
trust, like I've seen withinsome leadership, where they want
to control it and everybodysees it, they know where you're
going, they're talking about itand they're, like you know,
telling you this, and thenyou're shaking your head and
what they're doing is back toyour illusion of control.
(34:47):
Is we have that?
I mean, there's so muchpsychology in how we lead that,
but people that are in the knowthe know that you're being led
that way and there's no buy-in,there's no authenticity to it,
and so you can and lead andguide that way, but then it does
lack that trust that fallswithin that whole idea.
(35:09):
You lose the trust.
So, jumping into this book, theSpeed of Trust, it's a book that
I've listened to several times.
I read through.
It's a Stephen MR Covey, it'sStephen Stun, I guess, wrote the
book and dad helped him out.
But there was something thatreally stuck out for me, which I
think fits into ourconversation, interesting enough
, and I challenge you to readthis book because there is a lot
(35:32):
of value in learning trust andthat's one thing that I'm
practicing, I'm learning, I'munderstanding a little bit more
about myself.
But this is so funny.
He says, well, one of his 13principles so in this one
particular principles get betterto build trust.
And I'm like what is this evenfit?
And he says get better.
(35:52):
And that's one of hisprinciples is based on the
principles of continuousimprovement.
Are we in that space?
Speaker 2 (35:59):
talking about this.
Speaker 1 (36:01):
And listen to this.
Learning and change, likecontinuous improvement, learning
and change it is what theJapanese call Kaizen and it
builds enormous trust.
So reading through trust, andnow we're talking continuous
improvement, all of those things.
I just thought it was a strangeconnection.
(36:21):
I hadn't put the two together.
But do you feel like thecontinuous improvement path that
you're on I mean, you're theprocess continuous improvement
leader for your company Like, doyou think its main principle is
also building trust?
Speaker 2 (36:37):
Yes, 100%.
And so the reason why is that,yes, I'm in a position where I
get to engage with all of ourprojects, all of our departments
, all of our people, all ofeverybody that comes into our
company.
I get to have interactions withthem, and some of those people
have not been on this 20 yearjourney with me or been on this
(36:58):
10 year journey with me.
And so why, when I go into aroom to facilitate these
conversations, why would theylisten to me?
And there's moments and it'snot me, not imposter syndrome of
why would they care?
It's me going.
Why would someone come in aroom and listen to what I have
(37:18):
to say or do?
If I ask a question, why wouldthey answer?
And for me, it's because evensome of it's implied, just
because they haven't engagedwith me enough, or because of
the support that I have withinour company, from our leadership
, that the trust is there, theintegrity is there, and because
(37:42):
of that, because of the platformthey give me, because of the
support they give me, they trustthat whatever I've been asked
to do, that I can do it.
So there's that part.
I think that's true.
There's multiple things oftrust, but part of it is do
people that have tasked me withsomething trust that I can get
it done, and sometimes theydon't know what that could be,
(38:02):
because my thinking may be wayin front of where we are as a
company, but they trust thatbecause of my body of work,
because of the things that havehappened, that we're gonna get
there.
And so there's that trust,which I think is huge, because
not everybody I engage with Ihave a relationship with.
The other part of that is whenI do get to engage with our
(38:26):
people and our projects.
How do you build trust?
And like?
That's important, because Idon't think people think about
that like they should trust mebecause of my title.
They should trust me becauseI've been here and I have
experience and I've done thesethings.
That is not how I earn trust,because those are not things
that I'm able to show up and go.
You just need to trust mebecause of this, this and this.
(38:48):
So how do I immediately put themin a place to where they're
like?
This person is genuine, thisperson is real and they're going
, they care about me and this isa word you don't like very much
, but I'm gonna say it.
It starts with vulnerability.
It starts with vulnerability,and how does vulnerability tie
(39:08):
to trust?
Is that if I can get to a pointwhere I take down that armor
and that protection and they seethat I am a human and that I
genuinely care about them andI'm going to expose myself
because I want to be able toconnect with them?
It is amazing what they'rewilling to do, what they're
(39:28):
willing to share and that ithappens one time, james, one
time, and I will never forgetthem and they will never forget
me.
Speaker 1 (39:37):
Yeah, the whole idea of continuous improvement,
building trust, especiallyfitting into what we do in
construction and for what you doas your day job.
This is your night job, I don'tknow what, I don't know.
We'll cut that out, but theidea is, when you're a
self-improver, so we'll go atthat level, not just improving
(40:00):
well, let's start with this yourimproving processes that make
work easier, right?
So?
Speaker 2 (40:05):
those they make work better, better, better.
Yeah, because it's not alwayseasy, because I have behind me I
have a sign that says work hardand be nice to people Like it's
not gonna be.
It's not always gonna be easyand you're gonna have to get up
and it's gonna be tough andyou're gonna have to get your
hands dirty, but it's worth it.
Speaker 1 (40:24):
But you're looking at the hands I hear you've
mentioned that before too right,you're looking at the hands,
you're looking at the feet,you're making that work better
for them.
So that improvement is aprocess that's building trust.
To say, I see you and I'm gonnahelp you.
You may not even see it,because you're right in the work
right there.
So continuous improvement atthat level is building trust.
(40:46):
But the other thing isself-developers as well too.
For me and this issemi-unpopular is I have this
theory of prove me wrong, andpeople don't like that.
Like you should never prove thesuperintendent wrong.
I might have proved me wrong,but here's the background to it
is prove me wrong because then Ionly become better.
Speaker 2 (41:07):
Right, I learned yes.
Speaker 1 (41:09):
I have.
Now you've proven me wrong, butI have done nothing in doing
that other than now made me moreright.
You've proven me wrong and nowI'm more right because I'm
taking your information.
But that type of scenario, thatspace, that area that you've
opened up really does bring in acertain level of trust because
I'm willing to accept yourfeedback and apply it and then
(41:34):
now we're all become better forit.
It's just such a neat circle ofgrowth.
I think that comes throughtrust, through continuous
improvement.
The one thing I do like aboutthis book I'm a big summary
person.
They do summarize the behaviorswhich, if you summarize
anything with me, if you'regiven a training, if I'm in a
Gen Lacey training and you gaveme some paper that summarized it
(41:54):
, do you know what I'm gonna do?
First I'm gonna go to thesummary first.
I'm gonna see.
Okay, this is what she's gonnatalk about.
Let's see how much time getswasted through all these other
stories or where they beneficialsome terrible that way.
But they did have a summary andof course, I went to the
summaries first.
But this is the summary of thiswhole idea of getting better at
this behavior, continuouslyimprove, increase your
(42:16):
capabilities, be a constantlearner.
Develop feedback systems, bothformal and informal.
Act on the feedback you receive.
Thank people for feedback.
Don't consider yourself abovefeedback.
Don't assume today's knowledgeand skills will be sufficient
for tomorrow's challenges, andyou have a saying for that.
Speaker 2 (42:39):
What are you talking about?
Speaker 1 (42:41):
So you have a saying that escapes me, as well as
hoping that it would connect,but it has something to do with
what got me here.
Speaker 2 (42:51):
Well, you won't get me there.
Yeah, 100% it won't if we livein a space of like, we've
reached where we're supposed togo.
We're done like.
We're done Like.
You'll have a moment in theglory, you'll have a moment of
success, and then you're gonnastart right back at the bottom.
Speaker 1 (43:13):
Yeah, and that's exactly what they said here.
Don't assume today's knowledgeand skills will be sufficient
for tomorrow's challenges.
I like the way you word itbetter, because it's more
concise and it really nails it,which is what got you here won't
get you there.
It's the same thing.
What I think was fascinating,though and this is why I wanted
to kind of tie all this togetherat the end of our conversation
is tying into this book that youhaven't read yet.
(43:33):
Yeah, you will.
Speaker 2 (43:34):
It's on my list.
I told you I'm not gonna get tomy list.
Speaker 1 (43:37):
Everything that I have read in this summary is all
the things that you have talkedabout in the idea of building
trust through continuousimprovement, so I just thought
that was a neat tie together inregards to that.
Speaker 2 (43:47):
So Jen, and I wanna add one more, just based on your
summary is a lot of timespeople don't give us feedback
because they're worried abouthow we're gonna respond.
So we hit the part on how weneed to respond if we're asking
for feedback.
But I also know I've got somepeople that I hold in high
regard and anything they tell meI would receive it and I would
(44:10):
realize that they care about me.
And when I've asked them forsomething, they're like well, I
don't wanna wanna share thiswith you because you may not
like it, and I'm like oh, whoa,whoa, like let's why, why would
you not?
Because of the first, some of itis like not rating things that
tie to you directly.
(44:31):
Some of them didn't rate themvery high.
I'm like well then, that's evenbetter, because now I know
there's a gap on a specificproject and that's something I
can do to get better.
But and they know me yet they,because it was tied directly to
me, they were worried that itwould be something that I would
(44:53):
receive.
Well, and so it's like we'vegotta make sure that
communication is open both ways,not just when we ask for it,
but setting the stage so thatpeople are willing to give us
something when it's not a funconversation.
Speaker 1 (45:08):
Yeah, and that's that takes a very deep level of
trust, but also skill.
I think there's two of thoseinvolved in that.
Because I'm not very good atthat I'll admit that right now,
as I like bringing in the fluffystuff right.
I wanna encourage you to pumpyou up to where you're going,
and there's times where I'mlearning.
I've got to be better at givingthose type of criticisms or
(45:30):
critiques or evaluations.
So, because you want to hear it, you know I need to know that
you wanna hear it, because I'min the same boat too.
As I get.
I don't get enough deep enoughcriticism because of my position
and I think by nature we're notvery good at it.
A lot of people aren't, and allof these things don't help us
improve.
Speaker 2 (45:51):
Well, and because I think they're uncomfortable,
like when you have to sit thereand give feedback that's not,
that's kind of sticky and yucky,or when you're in a place where
you're, you know that thefeedback you could be getting
could be a little bit like notgreat, like no, it's an
(46:12):
uncomfortable space, and youcould either make it as
uncomfortable and awkward as ithas been, and it will continue
to be the way it is, or you candiffuse it and turn it and flip
it upside down.
And to me, that's what I try todo.
I try to build therelationships and have the
conversations and push thosethings to where, when they know
(46:35):
they're bringing me something,it's like, hey, jennifer, da, da
, da, da da, and then we keepmoving and then I act on it and
I make a change and they go.
I need to give her morefeedback, like that's what we've
got to do.
Speaker 1 (46:45):
Wow, that's great.
So that's great.
You build momentum to get morefeedback.
They want to give you feedback.
Yes, fascinating.
Well, so what, while we wrapthings up, if you want people to
get ahold of you, how do theyget ahold of Ms Jennifer Lacey?
Speaker 2 (47:02):
The best way is LinkedIn, like if, again, you
can go to my specific page,jennifer Lacey if you used to a
search, you'd probably find me.
And then also if you go to noBS with Jen and Jess, same way,
like they're kind of I'm outthere on both platforms, that's
the easiest way and then connectwith me and I will be happy to
help and support my sometimes toa detriment, just based on
(47:25):
feedback I get sometimes.
But I will share and I willhelp support anything that
anybody needs.
If they want an example, ifthey want hey, what about this?
I have a thought.
There's so much out there andwe've lived in this place of
protection and I don't want toshare my secrets because someone
else may be as good as me and Idon't live in that world.
So I am willing to share andconnect and if somebody needs
(47:45):
something, if I don't have theanswer, I have people around me
that do, so happy to help.
Speaker 1 (47:50):
Yeah, and I so much appreciated, and I think, what
you're doing for the industry aswell, as I'm seeing others.
It used to be, like you said,that we're very guarded,
protecting our interests.
You know you work for a generalcontractor that's probably
double the size of the one thatI work for in the billions right
.
But I've sat on some othersuperintendent committees with
some folks through Adam hootscompanies across the country
(48:12):
that are sharing theseimprovements so we can improve
our industry and make us betterwithout that, you know, feeling
of competition because we're allhere to make work better, as I
found not easier.
Speaker 2 (48:26):
It's got like, like James, your company is not going
to get all the work, my companyis not going to get all the
work and they're going to betrades that work on my, on my
jobs that are going to go toyour jobs and they're going to
go to another place.
And if we're looking at this asan industry issue and an
industry Solution, then whentrades leave me and they go work
for you, it's going to makeyour jobs better.
(48:47):
And you know, I'm saying it'slike what we've got to look at
this, bigger than just anindividual silo, like this, is a
network that when we makethings, we make people better.
Then they're going to go and dobetter things in other places,
which makes our industry better.
Speaker 1 (49:01):
Exactly, yep, and that's that makes us all better.
Yes, all right.
So this is our time for theuncommon communicator moment.
This is the time where you know, for the last hour or less,
that we've been chatting.
I want to sum it up.
What?
How would you sum up ourconversation?
What's the one thing thatpeople could leave with today
from today's conversation?
Speaker 2 (49:21):
so I think the summary for me would be that the
feedback and trust conversationI'm going to try to put it
together is that you cannotdictate trust.
And so what are you doing, whatintentionally are you doing to
create that environment and andbeing able to walk into where
(49:42):
someone will actually Listen towhat you have to say, and that
trust feeds into the feedback.
So, like, don't just don't makeassumptions on trust or
feedback, but like you have tosay it, and you not only have to
say it, you have to do it.
And so if they watch you andyour actions don't match what
you're asked with their, whatyou're asking them to do, then
(50:05):
it's going to fail.
So you've got to exhibit thethings that you want and and
then it will come back to you.
And so for me it's it's thetrust you have to earn, but you
also, based on your support, youcan.
You can walk into a room andhave it, but you have to feed
into it to be able to let themknow that you're the real deal.
Speaker 1 (50:25):
So you can't dictate trust, you have to show it.
Yes, I sum it all up yes.
Well, that's all we've got fortoday.
Speaker 2 (50:34):
Thank you all, bye, bye.
That's right back to back throwbacks this week.
This week I'm bringing inJennifer Lacey, where we talked
about trust.
It was a great conversation anda cool journey to really
understand how trust has suchvalue in not only our
relationships but also in ourcommunication so important.
But bringing back to back JenLacey and also Jesse, the social
(00:23):
media mogul himself, back toback this week, so please enjoy.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
You want to talk right down to us, and a language
that everybody here can easilyunderstand.
Do you understand the wordsthat are coming out of my mouth?
What Space, one again, space,one again.
I dare you, I double dare you.
What we got here is a failureto communicate.
Speaker 1 (00:52):
Welcome to the Uncommon Communicator Podcast,
where we bring enlightenment tothe topic of communication.
I'm so excited today to haveagain on the show Ms Jennifer
Lacey, known as the famous lady.
She did not give her name toherself.
Now a little bit about Jen.
She's a Texas native with abackground in teaching, and
author and illustrator andco-host of the no BS.
(01:14):
With Jen and Jess.
I think you're the host becauseyou're talking.
You are a conference speaker.
This is huge and I saw this onLinkedIn.
Recipient of the Dallasbusiness journal, 2023 woman of
the year and business award.
That's awesome, thank you.
And the last 20 years you haveworked for Robbins and Morton as
a lean practice leader.
Jen Jennifer, welcome to theshow.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
Thank you very much.
I'm excited to be here.
Speaker 1 (01:39):
Well, we are going to touch again on some more topics
.
I think last time it turnedinto soft skills.
I don't think that'snecessarily, probably even your
best trait, but you're so goodat it.
There's so many other thingsthat you build and trust, so
there's a couple of things Iwanted to jump into Now.
You are also co-author of thisbook right here, lean and Love
(02:00):
with Mr Jesse, somethingHernandez or this guy.
Yes, do you want to talk abouthow this whole book of Lean and
Love came about?
Real quick?
Just kind of, I will try.
Speaker 2 (02:14):
Jesse does a better job, but I will absolutely try.
So he and I crossed paths.
We collided on some lean stuff.
We were on a planning committeefor a Congress for LCI, and me
not willing to sit back and justwatch what's going on.
I went up and we had somereally intense conversations and
then, following that, hereached out and said hey, I've
(02:35):
got this idea, have theseletters and I want to do a live
stream and get people to kind oftalk about some of this stuff
that nobody likes to talk about,and I want to do it with you.
And so we kind of had moreconversations, had some
brainstorming, and then we dovein, did them via live stream,
and then at the end a couple ofthings happened.
Number one is we got a lot ofpeople that jumped in and really
(02:58):
wanted to be a part of thesevulnerable, kind of
uncomfortable things that wewere able to help facilitate
pretty well.
And then people were like weneed more of these type of
conversations.
So that's one thing thathappened.
And the other is that when wefinished with lots and lots of
hours of live stream I'm sureyou know about that that people
were like we would love aCliffsNotes version.
(03:19):
And then Jesse said oh, noproblem, we'll just edit down
and go through all the scriptsand all that and you know his
patience is about this small.
And so he started that and hewent oh, this isn't going to
work.
And so he said hey, what areyour thoughts on putting all
this in a book?
And so we did the live streamsfirst and all of a sudden there
was like oh, let's write a bookand put it all together.
(03:41):
And so, also based on the needfor people to want more of these
conversations, we launched NoBSwith Jyn and Jess platform.
So all of that came from like,just starting with that
conversation.
Speaker 1 (03:54):
That's ridiculous.
And then you're also at whatanniversary right now for that,
oh my gosh this month it'sDecember.
Speaker 2 (04:00):
This month, for two years, where we launched and
every other Saturday morning wedo live streams around
uncomfortable conversations, andat first it was a little bit
geared towards like justconstruction, because that's, we
both are in construction and inthe lean space.
But we realized, and it didn'ttake as long, that half of our
(04:21):
audience are not even inconstruction, and so we realized
that things we're talking aboutare not just limited to the
construction industry, but theyare like world issues and they
are things that every humanbeing that wakes up every day
runs into these type of dilemmasand kind of sometimes, these
frustrations.
And so, two years this month,we will People keep showing up
(04:43):
and so we keep getting to talkabout these things.
Speaker 1 (04:46):
It's amazing how we think of constructions in this
bubble and there's a bubble ofconstruction, but it's.
The problems we face are notunique to the rest of the world,
especially in Even even infinding people to do work, you
know, finding constructionworkers Everybody's dealing with
some kind of mental, you knowhealth issue, which is really
(05:06):
some of the things that we touchon a lot in the no BS tribe, as
well as this wholeVulnerability word that you've
made me stay out loud.
You know, absolutely new.
I keep.
Jesse gave me a pass, I finallyfigured it out and if
vulnerability is only sharingthe stupid things that I've done
so others can get better,that's a level of vulnerability
(05:29):
I'm willing to accept.
That one I'll take.
Speaker 2 (05:31):
Okay, I'll start I.
Speaker 1 (05:38):
Didn't like to say in the word or talking about it,
and you know.
But we're seeing a movement,even within my own company, and
I think that you guys are on theleading edge of it.
You were talking about itbefore.
It was cool.
Really, now, if it's hittingmainstream, hitting companies
that you personally haven'ttouched, where we're talking
about it, then it's reallyhitting something that has found
(05:58):
a nerve and that nerve is rawand it needs healing.
Then the only way to heal it isto really talk about it.
So those are one of the thingsthat you know, you're really
bringing a light to the industryin that and making it okay,
which one of the things that Ireally admire about you is.
I think we're similar in how wehave stuffed our feelings away,
how we shield.
(06:18):
That's probably one of my bestthings that I do is guard those
Feelings.
But you've been able to go pastthat and I mean you've had you
know, very you know difficulttimes in your life growing up,
but how have you really?
What was the turning point,what was your moment of
enlightenment to be able to goto this point of vulnerability?
Speaker 2 (06:36):
well, there's probably multiple, but let's so.
Historically, yeah, and I'mreally, I've been really really
good at the protection.
So you call it shield, I call itprotection, but it's that armor
that, because of ourexperiences, because of our
trauma, because of all the hurt,all the things in our lives
that you know have we've allowedpenetrate, we've realized like
(06:57):
we can control that by just notletting things penetrate and you
know, and that can keep us fromagain getting hurt, things, bad
things happening to us, but italso keeps everything else out
and and so, and we can focus, wecan be successful, we can be
high performing and and andthat's great and we get lots of
accolades for that, but we'realso keeping a lot of good
(07:20):
things out and and so what I'mgonna own this like I mean
within the last Three or fouryears you know it as these
conversations are happening, aseven the stuff that Jesse and I
have done together Like I'verealized like there are a lot of
people out there that live inthat mode, that protection mode,
and then I've got to protectwhat's inside of me and that's
(07:43):
okay at the detriment of what'soutside of me.
And as a mother of two teenagegirls right now, like you know,
one's almost a teenager, theother ones 15.
Like if I, if I show up thatway, both places at human at
work, like how I'm, how, how amI setting a good example for
them?
Right and so, as a mother, likeyou want to be protective and
(08:04):
you want to make sure thatyou're helping them be good
humans, but like I need them tobe.
Also, we understand theimportance of you know being,
you know being real, in thatit's okay to hurt and it's okay
to fail, and it's okay to learnand it's okay to like not be
okay.
And if they don't see that me,how could they possibly be able
to show that to other people?
(08:25):
So that's been that.
I mean, all of that hashappened over the course, but
like that's a driving point asto when I show up and a lot of
my stuff's on the socials, so alot of my stuff's out there and
anyone can watch it, includingmy daughters, and so what am I
doing to be able to be the, toexhibiting the behaviors that I
(08:46):
want?
To make sure I can see it?
Speaker 1 (08:47):
So your moment of enlightenment came in realizing
that you also need to model itfor your children.
So you, they, don't have to gothrough 20, 30 years of
Shielding is that?
Is that right?
Speaker 2 (09:00):
Yes, and it and it's not always easy, and there's a
lot of tears and there's somescreaming and there's some yell.
I mean, like that's parenting,but it's also within the end.
Are they in a place to where,like it's okay to hurt, it's
okay to fail, it's okay to makea mistake, like the world's not
gonna come crashing down?
Because I mean, like we keep,we shield ourselves, you know,
(09:23):
to not make mistakes, to haveall the answers, and Like it's
okay for me to go?
I don't know that like let'slook it up, let's figure it out.
There's not a lot of peoplethat figure that out early.
Speaker 1 (09:35):
Right, yeah, and then that's what I fear I'm on that
path towards where I'm gonnafigure it all out when I'm 90,
right, when I take my lastbreath, maybe a hundred, I don't
know.
I should eat better to livethat long.
But you're right, you want tofigure them out earlier.
I know for us, especially now,because this really does tie to
the no BS tribe and this idea ofdealing with vulnerability is
(09:57):
our family as a history does nottalk about grieving.
Very well, we were terrible atit and and I looked through this
process here recently werecently had to put our dog down
, which was first one, ever, thehardest thing any human could
ever do to make that decision,and you don't realize a
connection that you make withthat.
But having to now deal withthose emotions that I didn't
(10:18):
expect and and having to try tomodel it to my children, who I
haven't shown even how I grievefor my dad Was one, was not at
all, and then for my mom I lostit, like I could not even, you
know, communicate or talkthrough it, and now I've got
McGee to talk about, and sothose are all those steps, those
processes, but although thoseare all come into the idea of
vulnerability, like how muchit's stuffing.
(10:40):
It was so much easier.
Speaker 2 (10:42):
But I find our industry does that, like our
industry does that, like I don'tknow why.
We think like we're dealingwith trauma or we're dealing
with grief, and we then we go towork, and how do we not equate
that every other human beingthat we look at every day and
engage with could also bedealing with With those exact
things?
Speaker 1 (11:01):
Yeah, that's so true, that's so true, so moving.
So one thing I want to do Iwant to talk a little bit about
the book and the reason.
Of course, you're here to talkAbout communication, as this is
what the podcast is all about,but everything kind of weaves
into it as some way.
But when I look through thebook, lean in love.
Beautiful illustrations in hereas well.
You are the illustrator of that.
(11:22):
When I, when I read through itand I read the gen comments I
did I'll tell you this is how Idissected this book.
Like I spoke with Jesse andI've read through his book of
stories, which was just abrilliant, brilliantly put
together has become the promisethat you're intended to be.
But this one here Just kind ofto understand Jen a little bit,
(11:42):
and so I went to your comments,read through them.
What are they always about?
They're about communication,like it's communicating, and
trust, and there's so manythings that that come out from
From what you present.
But this is an interestingstory here and Well, quick
format for our readers.
First off, as you talked about,this was a live stream, so you
(12:03):
took the live stream notes,comments, questions threw them
into a book.
There were five things.
It's really the five s loveletters.
So you took five s scene,turned it into these love
letters and this is how you canwork through relationships and
communication, stuff like that.
So in taking that, goingthrough those steps, you do
there's just blurbs.
Here's quotes like here's somegreat advice, here's a question,
(12:23):
here's some tips and stuff likethat, but here's a story that
you shared.
You can't rush communication.
I have two girls.
One is really good at math.
She is walking me through herdivision problem.
She needs help.
Something is not jiving.
I started to tell her what theproblem was and she said no, mom
, let me walk through theprocess.
As she was walking me throughit, she saw that.
(12:45):
She saw where she hadn'tsubtracted right.
She needed to fix it herself tolearn.
Speaker 2 (12:57):
It does that.
That's one example of athousand of and I've had this
conversation recently with afriend is that, like we want to
make our children's lives betterand we've experienced and we've
done some things that welearned from.
We can help them, but how didwe learn?
We learned by not havingsomeone help us and by having to
(13:22):
figure it out.
Our automatic response is likewe can fix it, we have the
solution.
We have a whole other thingthat Jesse and I do with
emotional bungee jumpers thatit's like I need to allow you to
keep your problem.
It is not my job to take yourproblem away.
Let me ask questions that helpyou be able to get where you
(13:44):
need to be.
It's a prime example of that ofnot being the person to jump in
and fix it, because how wouldthat help her?
Speaker 1 (13:55):
Yeah, we're driven by it.
It's almost super cool.
If you were extreme one way,then you want to go and solve
the problems.
I think Jesse coined the termshanking.
What is it the solution?
Shanking.
That seems the easiest solutionand it's not.
I think that's been one of thebiggest challenges for me is to
let people walk it through andlearn it themselves.
(14:18):
They're going to learn itdeeper and better.
I think that what a greatexample.
However much our kids teach usthat.
But that was such a greatexample of she stopped you.
If she didn't stop you, you'regoing to give her the answer and
she never would have solved iton her own.
That multiplied a billion timesinto everything we do at work.
(14:40):
In fact, for me, I've taken alot of that.
When people come to me withproblems, I used to just give
out the answers, go do this andboom, we're on.
I don't anymore.
I ask them first.
What's amazing is, most of thetime, high percentage.
They already have the answer.
They're coming to you ask you aquestion.
They already have the answer.
Why don't you give me youranswer?
Then we can just cut to thequick and then they own it.
(15:01):
I thought what a great example,but I love that you can't rush
communication.
For me, I'm always like, allright, I know what the next
steps are, let's just get tothem, let's move on.
But you can't.
You have to let it grow.
That was such a great storyillustrating that it had the
word communication, so I had tojump to that one.
No, that's it.
Speaker 2 (15:19):
I just want to add to that.
Justine, I have thisconversation.
A lot is we're busy, our wordsare busy.
We're always in this mode ofwhat's next, all the things
we're trying to cram into ourday, and that busyness makes us
rush communication.
Speaker 1 (15:38):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (15:39):
Because we're not thinking about the moment, we're
not thinking about the personin front of us, we're not
thinking about the issue, we'rethinking about what's next.
That example hit it, hitstraight on.
It's not about what I'm tryingto hurry up and get to after
she's done with her homework.
What are we doing right now, inthis moment?
Do you call me out?
(16:00):
That's what it was.
Speaker 1 (16:02):
Right, right.
What a life lesson for all ofus to learn.
That was just brilliant.
I love that there's another one, of course.
It's titled Keep Communicating.
Of course I gravitated towardsthat one.
Here's another quote from Jen.
There are different ways tocommunicate.
Nonverbal communication is oneexample.
Being clear with what we arethinking and feeling is critical
(16:23):
in guarding against sendingmixed signals.
There's even being able to sayI need to step away or I need
some time Can save the 20,000scenarios we make up in our
heads from happening.
Walking away could dissolve thesituation or feel it.
Speaker 2 (16:43):
Okay, there's a lot of package to that chunk of
words right there.
It's a couple of things.
I think it's more than a coupleof things, but we'll talk about
a couple of things.
Number one is those scenarioswe make up in our head, the what
ifs, based on just ourexperience and the things we've
done.
It's so easy to jump to thingsthat have never happened, that
(17:07):
may never happen.
Those what ifs keep us frommaking progress.
Those what ifs keep us frombeing able to see the potential
of what something could be.
An example of this and it's onespecifically is I love to take
notes.
That is my way to capturethings, but also to get things
(17:30):
out of my head so I can keepadding more things into my head.
I love taking notes.
I take notes pretty much inevery conversation or if I have
a thought or an idea.
I'm like I got to write thatdown because I don't want to
lose it.
I was having a conversation withJesse talking about how I'm
struggling with reflection andthings like that.
I struggle with reflectionbecause I have to stop and I
have to not be moving to be ableto reflect, which is like crazy
(17:52):
.
We were having thisconversation.
He's like well, what do you dohe journals?
I had tried some other things,to no avail, but they did not
work.
I said, okay, I'm just going towalk because I enjoy walking.
I'm going to use that walkingtime as reflection time.
For me, it's like, okay, if I'mgoing to do that, then I'm not
(18:14):
taking any notepads, I'm nottaking any earbuds, I'm not
taking any phone.
I'm going to use that asreflection time.
What I realized in that time isthat I had an idea and I was
like, oh my gosh, I've got towrite this down.
I didn't have anything.
I kept thinking and that ideagrew and grew and grew.
(18:35):
Another idea came from that,another good idea came from that
.
It got so big by the time Ifinished walking that my
reflection, it hit me in my face.
You would have never got thereif you stopped and wrote down
that very first thing, and so tome, it's the inability
sometimes to allow ourselves todisconnect and walk away and get
(18:58):
out of the middle of the chaosso that we can identify or see
something that maybe would havenever happened.
Speaker 1 (19:07):
Yeah.
And so you bring up, I think, akey point in any communication
and really any collaboration,any battle, because I think we
go into battle mode and whenwe're in battle mode we're going
to hit that aggressively untilwe get our point and get out.
But the idea that that's noteffective in communication and I
think that's one of the easiestthing for people to do is to
(19:30):
take a breath and walk away,take time to collect your
thoughts at a high level andyou're going a little bit deeper
in that.
You're saying you do that andthen now you're able to go
yourself into a betterunderstanding of it that you
never would have got to before.
So there's so much and therewas a lot to unpack in that one,
because in fact I was lookingat that thinking, man, this is
(19:52):
probably three or four bulletpoints that thrown out in a you
know, in a quote.
And then it's like all right,let's move on.
And I'm like why am I going to?
Let us?
Speaker 2 (20:01):
Can I add one more?
One more example from justunpackaging from that.
That section is going back tomy daughter.
Is she over things?
And she escalates.
And she, you know, her anxietyskyrockets and so she then
becomes worst case scenario.
And what do you do as a parentwhen your child is spiraling or
your child is not doing well?
(20:21):
You want to fix it and I and inthose moments like I realized I
just want to get to thesolution, I want to get to where
she's better, and I did nothingbut exacerbate it.
And like it took more and moretimes about fueling, and I'm
fueling and I'm fueling it, butI, but I can fix it.
I can fix it because I can fixthings.
(20:42):
So like that was not the way todo it and like I had to remove
myself and I had to allow her toget to a place where she could
even receive Right.
And we don't think about thatwhen we're interacting with
people.
Speaker 1 (20:58):
The other thing too is no, I mean you know your
daughter like you're learningher still.
I mean there's, she's stillgoing to continue to evolve.
But understanding people aswell to knowing that some need
to be in that battle, otherother people need that time to
you know, exchange.
One thing that I've realized isthat I think out loud and
that's good and bad, and I foundlike I have frustrated some
(21:19):
people by just shooting ideasout there and you know I'm like
here's an idea, here's an idea.
He's like slow it down, likeyou wanted to process each of
them.
So we had a really great moment, learning moment for me to
learn him a little bit.
But the thing I learned aboutmyself is that isn't effective
for this individual for sure.
So I have to know how toregulate that and change my
(21:40):
style in doing that.
And this is kind of a sidebaron that, jesse.
I asked Jesse for some feedbackon our interview.
I'm like give me what you tell,give me some little bit of
feedback, and he's loves givingfeedback, which only if you ask
right, and I'm going to change.
But what I found is I clarifymy questions a lot Like, instead
of just asking a question, Ijust clarified and I caught
(22:01):
myself the other day doing itbecause I don't know what I'm
going to ask yet until I haveprocessed it out loud.
So that's, that's something Igot to work on, because I can't,
for the most part, me alwaysclarifying and then getting to
the question.
I should be getting better atpractice in my head for other
people who don't respond well tothat.
(22:22):
So just all that.
It's just an interestingprocess on on how to deal with
all of that.
Speaker 2 (22:29):
But that came from feedback too, which is, we is,
super important.
We know that communication,that having that reciprocal
conversation and having someoneprovide feedback and being in a
place of trust where you couldknow that the person that's
telling you that is coming froma good place and that they are.
You know, they're one of thosepeople that you know are trying
to help you Like that's a bigdeal.
Speaker 1 (22:48):
Well, as we talked about even last weekend in the
live stream.
One thing that, just anotherrevelation for me is I realized
that I, you know I'm my ownworst critic and that's one
reason I haven't been invitingin other people, because I'm my
own worst critic.
Like, why do I need you tocriticize me?
And it's not feedback, is notcriticism.
So that allowing in of peopleto you know, help, guide me and
(23:13):
help me get better has all beendriven off of that issue of
trust.
Do I trust them enough?
But also, for me, taking alittle bit step deeper is to not
let people's opinions, thoughts, whatever, affect me, like I
might have take all I can, butI'm not going to let it put me
in a bunker, in a bad mood oranything.
That mindset alone has allowedme to even get even more
(23:36):
feedback, because before to me,it was always criticism that's
criticizing myself.
Speaker 2 (23:42):
Well, it's the best response.
It doesn't matter how horriblethat you feel from the feedback
is.
Thank you, and it's so simple.
But, like as soon as that's theresponse, it keeps the door
open for more.
Speaker 1 (23:59):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (23:59):
Whether you like.
I mean whether you go to themagain later or not.
But as soon as there's so manypeople and I'm going to tell you
they do this, and it's not evenI don't even think it's
conscious, I think it'ssubconsciously that when someone
says something to you orsomebody gives you feedback,
your responses to defend it andit's not.
It's like you're doing itbecause you're in protection
(24:21):
mode and we just talked.
We talked about that.
You're in protection mode,you're trying to protect
yourself.
But, like then, why did you ask?
Speaker 1 (24:28):
Yeah, and that's that's.
In a situation where you'reasking and getting defensive and
you're in, I would say, even alittle bit level of trust with
somebody, Even then we becomedifferent.
And the one thing I learnedfrom Jaco Wilnick is he talks
about how, when somebody is likecriticizing you hearing the
background or you just hearsomebody just talking bad stuff
(24:49):
about you that there's always agrain of truth in there that we
need to accept.
And once that hit my mind and Ithought, okay, there is a grain
of truth.
Okay, yeah, you're right, I doneed to work on that Instead of
letting that anger me, upset meor hate that person.
It's like, all right, there's agrain and there always is.
There always is a grain oftruth.
(25:09):
Now, if they may be slanted,maybe they're just miserable
people, but there's a grain oftruth in there and if you can
take that, then you becomebetter by learning from that.
Speaker 2 (25:20):
And what I've realized, what's helped me when
I get feedback, good or bad, oreven when it's something that,
like before, would really hurtmy feelings that if someone's
saying it, they believe it, yes,and they in my opinion I can
say they're wrong.
But if they believe it, it'swhat they feel.
Is it wrong?
Speaker 1 (25:40):
Right.
But the other thing and I'vegiven a little bit, I'm trying
to give a little bit more gracein that I tend to.
I'll sometimes say things thatI don't mean either, and so I
want to.
That's why remaining calm isthe best thing to do, to ask a
clarifying question and thenallow that person to say well,
that's really not, I didn'tintend it that way,
(26:02):
Understanding that yourintentions still hurt, and so
you have to be able to pull thatback.
But the idea is, are those theright words that you chose to
use and give an opportunity forthat to maybe steer a different
way?
So there's another quote fromthe book.
There's another.
I don't know if it was Jen ornot, so if they're not Mark, Jen
or Jess, who's writing thisstuff?
Speaker 2 (26:25):
Normally, usually the copy is conversational and so
it's not specific, so it couldit could be in any way.
Speaker 1 (26:31):
Well, this, this one really connected with me because
, in trying to find out what,what, what is my purpose Like,
what is the uncommoncommunicator purpose?
To bring enlightenment to thetopic of communication.
But what's the deeper purposeof that?
And I have really, probably inthe last six months, realized
that I want to help give peoplea voice and I can do that
through learning communicationskills, through learning
(26:53):
techniques, through learning howto be heard is going to elevate
you.
So that has become my, my kindof underlining theme.
I haven't told this to anyonebefore, but that's what I'm
working on and this is what yousaid on.
Let's see, I'm not pagenumbered, page number heart.
People just want to matter.
Speaker 2 (27:13):
Yes, oh yes, that is like and that's burning my soul.
Speaker 1 (27:17):
They want to be heard and that's why I'm like bam,
this is exactly it.
I need to hear Jen's take onthat, because they they want to
matter, but they also to beheard.
You got to speak and, yes,there's a lot of communication
nonverbally, but you need tospeak, you need to be heard.
This is what I was.
You said they want to berespected.
(27:38):
When we go into any interactionand put people first, it will
change the way we approach theconversation, and so we're
focusing on personalrelationships.
Now we save them.
How or I'm sorry, how we savethem, how we stay in them, how
we value them, how we evaluatethem and how to keep them viable
(27:59):
.
It is no different in theworkspace.
People want their work tomatter, to make a difference.
Speaker 2 (28:07):
Tell me more about that one.
Yes, so my story behind this iswhen we think about and I'm
going to use constructionbecause that's the space for you
, I'm not construction.
I don't know many people, andI'm not saying there's not any,
but I don't know many peoplethat wake up in the morning and
they go.
You know what I want to gethurt today.
I don't get hurt so bad that itimpacts the financial.
(28:30):
It has a financial impact on myfamily.
I want to go and I want toscrew up something so bad that I
can lose my job and that Icould hurt somebody else.
I want to go, show up and getin an argument with someone
because I know I'm right that itwill sever a relationship.
I don't know many people thatwake up and think that way.
(28:53):
And so, when we look at it fromthat context, people come into
an environment, a culture, aninteraction and something
whether it's emotional orsomething.
They've got some.
There's got some emotionalbaggage that they're bringing in
, that they're already in thisdefensive mode.
Something happens and, like,the way we react and the way we
(29:14):
respond to things is soimportant.
But not only that whatenvironment and what culture are
we creating when these peoplecome in.
That in my, my, my visual isalways like we don't have people
that come into our constructionsite and they get to the gate
and they take their human hatoff and they put their hard hat
on and they come in and thenthey're just there to produce
(29:36):
outcomes all day long and thathumaneness just doesn't play
into anything.
And then they get to go backthrough the gate, put their
human hat back on and go home.
Like those things don't stayinside and outside the gate,
like they're bringing all thewhatever the things are
happening at home, their issues,any, any health problems,
anything going on there, thatall comes with it.
(29:57):
And then when they're at workand they've had a big fight or
something, somebody got hurt oryou know something went wrong
and they're now they're gonnahave to work later, whatever,
they're not gonna just be ableto shut that down when they walk
back out of the gate.
And so when I say people justwanna matter, like all of them,
the whole human, they want tomatter, not just they wanna make
money and they wanna make suretheir family's okay.
(30:19):
And so when we can look at thatwhole human and that when
they're at work do we only focuson the outcomes they produce or
do we focus on the person?
And I think, historically,because it's construction and
because the outcomes pay thebills, and the outcomes are how
we make money and how we canjudge things and how we can have
(30:42):
metrics and all these thingsthe outcomes are easy to be the
focus, but, like, if we're notshifting our attention and our
engagement and the things thatare important to us into that
human part, to the person that'sdoing the work, like we're
failing.
We're failing ourselves, we'refailing our companies, we're
failing are the people that wework with, because they don't
(31:04):
need to think that that's theway the world works.
Like they are human beings firstand if we focus on that, I've
experienced and when I see thatenvironment put in place, they
do better work.
They get excited about helpingother people and having, like
you said it earlier, they getexcited about sharing and
(31:24):
something they see or somethingthat they saw that they're a
little worried about.
Like for us having thatplatform to be able to go I
don't think that's right or thismay not be safe.
Like when you've createdsomething to where it's okay to
care about the person first.
It is a game changer.
Speaker 1 (31:42):
And big time and looking at it at kind of two
levels here too.
First off, caring about themand who they are, just
acknowledging that.
That's item number one.
Just even hey, jose, how's itgoing today?
That is the first step inknowing everybody on your job,
knowing everybody that they'rehuman, they're there, they have
(32:02):
stuff going on.
I had a carpenter on my jobrecently.
I knew about.
His son came and worked for us.
He joined the Marines duringthat timeframe he worked there
with us.
I had learned about his otherkids and so you learn about all
of that factor.
And he was probably one of themost productive people that I've
had on my job sites and woulddo anything Like well outside of
(32:23):
what would just be his definedscope of drywall studs and
framing stuff like that.
But that's all part of buildingthat relationship.
But the other side of that sothat's side number one
acknowledgement.
But the other part is reallyabout being heard and drawing
that out and that's what I loveabout that.
(32:43):
And again, this is my passionnow is knowing how much is left
on the table.
Because for two reasons wedon't ask.
So you gotta ask.
It's gotta start with leadership.
Leadership has to ask, but alsothey have to be given back to
that, your point of making thatspace open enough for them to
give their opinion.
And that's a tough one to do insome situations because as a
(33:05):
leader those are hard to manageand I'm finding some people
don't have that skill set to beable to say no, like hey, thank
you for sharing that.
But in your mind you're likethat's the worst idea I've ever
heard.
But you have to let them havethat idea, because two ideas
later they're gonna come up withthis huge time saving effort
but all of that.
(33:25):
Those are the part of beingheard, but the biggest part is
the fact that you acknowledgedit.
Speaker 2 (33:32):
They love it when you've released control of the
conversation and to me, like welove to have the agenda and
everything set and this iswhat's gonna happen and I'm
gonna make sure we're stay ontime and you are controlling the
conversation.
As soon as you think that youare controlling the conversation
, you are leaving zero space forthere to be anything that's off
(33:53):
topic, anything that takes youoff road, anything that could
potentially be something amazing.
Like you have completely shutit down because you're trying to
control it and like I mean,like I struggle with control and
I'm a work in progress, forsure, but like it is, like it
(34:14):
controls an illusion.
Like it is an illusion becauseif we're controlling one thing,
we are completely negatingsomething else.
Speaker 1 (34:24):
Yeah, and that is a.
So we're gonna talk a littlebit about trust.
Okay, do it.
But what you're talking aboutfalls right along the line of
trust, like I've seen withinsome leadership, where they want
to control it and everybodysees it, they know where you're
going, they're talking about itand they're, like you know,
telling you this, and thenyou're shaking your head and
what they're doing is back toyour illusion of control.
(34:47):
Is we have that?
I mean, there's so muchpsychology in how we lead that,
but people that are in the knowthe know that you're being led
that way and there's no buy-in,there's no authenticity to it,
and so you can and lead andguide that way, but then it does
lack that trust that fallswithin that whole idea.
(35:09):
You lose the trust.
So, jumping into this book, theSpeed of Trust, it's a book that
I've listened to several times.
I read through.
It's a Stephen MR Covey, it'sStephen Stun, I guess, wrote the
book and dad helped him out.
But there was something thatreally stuck out for me, which I
think fits into ourconversation, interesting enough
, and I challenge you to readthis book because there is a lot
(35:32):
of value in learning trust andthat's one thing that I'm
practicing, I'm learning, I'munderstanding a little bit more
about myself.
But this is so funny.
He says, well, one of his 13principles so in this one
particular principles get betterto build trust.
And I'm like what is this evenfit?
And he says get better.
(35:52):
And that's one of hisprinciples is based on the
principles of continuousimprovement.
Are we in that space?
Speaker 2 (35:59):
talking about this.
Speaker 1 (36:01):
And listen to this.
Learning and change, likecontinuous improvement, learning
and change it is what theJapanese call Kaizen and it
builds enormous trust.
So reading through trust, andnow we're talking continuous
improvement, all of those things.
I just thought it was a strangeconnection.
(36:21):
I hadn't put the two together.
But do you feel like thecontinuous improvement path that
you're on I mean, you're theprocess continuous improvement
leader for your company Like, doyou think its main principle is
also building trust?
Speaker 2 (36:37):
Yes, 100%.
And so the reason why is that,yes, I'm in a position where I
get to engage with all of ourprojects, all of our departments
, all of our people, all ofeverybody that comes into our
company.
I get to have interactions withthem, and some of those people
have not been on this 20 yearjourney with me or been on this
(36:58):
10 year journey with me.
And so why, when I go into aroom to facilitate these
conversations, why would theylisten to me?
And there's moments and it'snot me, not imposter syndrome of
why would they care?
It's me going.
Why would someone come in aroom and listen to what I have
(37:18):
to say or do?
If I ask a question, why wouldthey answer?
And for me, it's because evensome of it's implied, just
because they haven't engagedwith me enough, or because of
the support that I have withinour company, from our leadership
, that the trust is there, theintegrity is there, and because
(37:42):
of that, because of the platformthey give me, because of the
support they give me, they trustthat whatever I've been asked
to do, that I can do it.
So there's that part.
I think that's true.
There's multiple things oftrust, but part of it is do
people that have tasked me withsomething trust that I can get
it done, and sometimes theydon't know what that could be,
(38:02):
because my thinking may be wayin front of where we are as a
company, but they trust thatbecause of my body of work,
because of the things that havehappened, that we're gonna get
there.
And so there's that trust,which I think is huge, because
not everybody I engage with Ihave a relationship with.
The other part of that is whenI do get to engage with our
(38:26):
people and our projects.
How do you build trust?
And like?
That's important, because Idon't think people think about
that like they should trust mebecause of my title.
They should trust me becauseI've been here and I have
experience and I've done thesethings.
That is not how I earn trust,because those are not things
that I'm able to show up and go.
You just need to trust mebecause of this, this and this.
(38:48):
So how do I immediately put themin a place to where they're
like?
This person is genuine, thisperson is real and they're going
, they care about me and this isa word you don't like very much
, but I'm gonna say it.
It starts with vulnerability.
It starts with vulnerability,and how does vulnerability tie
(39:08):
to trust?
Is that if I can get to a pointwhere I take down that armor
and that protection and they seethat I am a human and that I
genuinely care about them andI'm going to expose myself
because I want to be able toconnect with them?
It is amazing what they'rewilling to do, what they're
(39:28):
willing to share and that ithappens one time, james, one
time, and I will never forgetthem and they will never forget
me.
Speaker 1 (39:37):
Yeah, the whole idea of continuous improvement,
building trust, especiallyfitting into what we do in
construction and for what you doas your day job.
This is your night job, I don'tknow what, I don't know.
We'll cut that out, but theidea is, when you're a
self-improver, so we'll go atthat level, not just improving
(40:00):
well, let's start with this yourimproving processes that make
work easier, right?
So?
Speaker 2 (40:05):
those they make work better, better, better.
Yeah, because it's not alwayseasy, because I have behind me I
have a sign that says work hardand be nice to people Like it's
not gonna be.
It's not always gonna be easyand you're gonna have to get up
and it's gonna be tough andyou're gonna have to get your
hands dirty, but it's worth it.
Speaker 1 (40:24):
But you're looking at the hands I hear you've
mentioned that before too right,you're looking at the hands,
you're looking at the feet,you're making that work better
for them.
So that improvement is aprocess that's building trust.
To say, I see you and I'm gonnahelp you.
You may not even see it,because you're right in the work
right there.
So continuous improvement atthat level is building trust.
(40:46):
But the other thing isself-developers as well too.
For me and this issemi-unpopular is I have this
theory of prove me wrong, andpeople don't like that.
Like you should never prove thesuperintendent wrong.
I might have proved me wrong,but here's the background to it
is prove me wrong because then Ionly become better.
Speaker 2 (41:07):
Right, I learned yes.
Speaker 1 (41:09):
I have.
Now you've proven me wrong, butI have done nothing in doing
that other than now made me moreright.
You've proven me wrong and nowI'm more right because I'm
taking your information.
But that type of scenario, thatspace, that area that you've
opened up really does bring in acertain level of trust because
I'm willing to accept yourfeedback and apply it and then
(41:34):
now we're all become better forit.
It's just such a neat circle ofgrowth.
I think that comes throughtrust, through continuous
improvement.
The one thing I do like aboutthis book I'm a big summary
person.
They do summarize the behaviorswhich, if you summarize
anything with me, if you'regiven a training, if I'm in a
Gen Lacey training and you gaveme some paper that summarized it
(41:54):
, do you know what I'm gonna do?
First I'm gonna go to thesummary first.
I'm gonna see.
Okay, this is what she's gonnatalk about.
Let's see how much time getswasted through all these other
stories or where they beneficialsome terrible that way.
But they did have a summary andof course, I went to the
summaries first.
But this is the summary of thiswhole idea of getting better at
this behavior, continuouslyimprove, increase your
(42:16):
capabilities, be a constantlearner.
Develop feedback systems, bothformal and informal.
Act on the feedback you receive.
Thank people for feedback.
Don't consider yourself abovefeedback.
Don't assume today's knowledgeand skills will be sufficient
for tomorrow's challenges, andyou have a saying for that.
Speaker 2 (42:39):
What are you talking about?
Speaker 1 (42:41):
So you have a saying that escapes me, as well as
hoping that it would connect,but it has something to do with
what got me here.
Speaker 2 (42:51):
Well, you won't get me there.
Yeah, 100% it won't if we livein a space of like, we've
reached where we're supposed togo.
We're done like.
We're done Like.
You'll have a moment in theglory, you'll have a moment of
success, and then you're gonnastart right back at the bottom.
Speaker 1 (43:13):
Yeah, and that's exactly what they said here.
Don't assume today's knowledgeand skills will be sufficient
for tomorrow's challenges.
I like the way you word itbetter, because it's more
concise and it really nails it,which is what got you here won't
get you there.
It's the same thing.
What I think was fascinating,though and this is why I wanted
to kind of tie all this togetherat the end of our conversation
is tying into this book that youhaven't read yet.
(43:33):
Yeah, you will.
Speaker 2 (43:34):
It's on my list.
I told you I'm not gonna get tomy list.
Speaker 1 (43:37):
Everything that I have read in this summary is all
the things that you have talkedabout in the idea of building
trust through continuousimprovement, so I just thought
that was a neat tie together inregards to that.
Speaker 2 (43:47):
So Jen, and I wanna add one more, just based on your
summary is a lot of timespeople don't give us feedback
because they're worried abouthow we're gonna respond.
So we hit the part on how weneed to respond if we're asking
for feedback.
But I also know I've got somepeople that I hold in high
regard and anything they tell meI would receive it and I would
(44:10):
realize that they care about me.
And when I've asked them forsomething, they're like well, I
don't wanna wanna share thiswith you because you may not
like it, and I'm like oh, whoa,whoa, like let's why, why would
you not?
Because of the first, some of itis like not rating things that
tie to you directly.
(44:31):
Some of them didn't rate themvery high.
I'm like well then, that's evenbetter, because now I know
there's a gap on a specificproject and that's something I
can do to get better.
But and they know me yet they,because it was tied directly to
me, they were worried that itwould be something that I would
(44:53):
receive.
Well, and so it's like we'vegotta make sure that
communication is open both ways,not just when we ask for it,
but setting the stage so thatpeople are willing to give us
something when it's not a funconversation.
Speaker 1 (45:08):
Yeah, and that's that takes a very deep level of
trust, but also skill.
I think there's two of thoseinvolved in that.
Because I'm not very good atthat I'll admit that right now,
as I like bringing in the fluffystuff right.
I wanna encourage you to pumpyou up to where you're going,
and there's times where I'mlearning.
I've got to be better at givingthose type of criticisms or
(45:30):
critiques or evaluations.
So, because you want to hear it, you know I need to know that
you wanna hear it, because I'min the same boat too.
As I get.
I don't get enough deep enoughcriticism because of my position
and I think by nature we're notvery good at it.
A lot of people aren't, and allof these things don't help us
improve.
Speaker 2 (45:51):
Well, and because I think they're uncomfortable,
like when you have to sit thereand give feedback that's not,
that's kind of sticky and yucky,or when you're in a place where
you're, you know that thefeedback you could be getting
could be a little bit like notgreat, like no, it's an
(46:12):
uncomfortable space, and youcould either make it as
uncomfortable and awkward as ithas been, and it will continue
to be the way it is, or you candiffuse it and turn it and flip
it upside down.
And to me, that's what I try todo.
I try to build therelationships and have the
conversations and push thosethings to where, when they know
(46:35):
they're bringing me something,it's like, hey, jennifer, da, da
, da, da da, and then we keepmoving and then I act on it and
I make a change and they go.
I need to give her morefeedback, like that's what we've
got to do.
Speaker 1 (46:45):
Wow, that's great.
So that's great.
You build momentum to get morefeedback.
They want to give you feedback.
Yes, fascinating.
Well, so what, while we wrapthings up, if you want people to
get ahold of you, how do theyget ahold of Ms Jennifer Lacey?
Speaker 2 (47:02):
The best way is LinkedIn, like if, again, you
can go to my specific page,jennifer Lacey if you used to a
search, you'd probably find me.
And then also if you go to noBS with Jen and Jess, same way,
like they're kind of I'm outthere on both platforms, that's
the easiest way and then connectwith me and I will be happy to
help and support my sometimes toa detriment, just based on
(47:25):
feedback I get sometimes.
But I will share and I willhelp support anything that
anybody needs.
If they want an example, ifthey want hey, what about this?
I have a thought.
There's so much out there andwe've lived in this place of
protection and I don't want toshare my secrets because someone
else may be as good as me and Idon't live in that world.
So I am willing to share andconnect and if somebody needs
(47:45):
something, if I don't have theanswer, I have people around me
that do, so happy to help.
Speaker 1 (47:50):
Yeah, and I so much appreciated, and I think, what
you're doing for the industry aswell, as I'm seeing others.
It used to be, like you said,that we're very guarded,
protecting our interests.
You know you work for a generalcontractor that's probably
double the size of the one thatI work for in the billions right
.
But I've sat on some othersuperintendent committees with
some folks through Adam hootscompanies across the country
(48:12):
that are sharing theseimprovements so we can improve
our industry and make us betterwithout that, you know, feeling
of competition because we're allhere to make work better, as I
found not easier.
Speaker 2 (48:26):
It's got like, like James, your company is not going
to get all the work, my companyis not going to get all the
work and they're going to betrades that work on my, on my
jobs that are going to go toyour jobs and they're going to
go to another place.
And if we're looking at this asan industry issue and an
industry Solution, then whentrades leave me and they go work
for you, it's going to makeyour jobs better.
(48:47):
And you know, I'm saying it'slike what we've got to look at
this, bigger than just anindividual silo, like this, is a
network that when we makethings, we make people better.
Then they're going to go and dobetter things in other places,
which makes our industry better.
Speaker 1 (49:01):
Exactly, yep, and that's that makes us all better.
Yes, all right.
So this is our time for theuncommon communicator moment.
This is the time where you know, for the last hour or less,
that we've been chatting.
I want to sum it up.
What?
How would you sum up ourconversation?
What's the one thing thatpeople could leave with today
from today's conversation?
Speaker 2 (49:21):
so I think the summary for me would be that the
feedback and trust conversationI'm going to try to put it
together is that you cannotdictate trust.
And so what are you doing, whatintentionally are you doing to
create that environment and andbeing able to walk into where
(49:42):
someone will actually Listen towhat you have to say, and that
trust feeds into the feedback.
So, like, don't just don't makeassumptions on trust or
feedback, but like you have tosay it, and you not only have to
say it, you have to do it.
And so if they watch you andyour actions don't match what
you're asked with their, whatyou're asking them to do, then
(50:05):
it's going to fail.
So you've got to exhibit thethings that you want and and
then it will come back to you.
And so for me it's it's thetrust you have to earn, but you
also, based on your support, youcan.
You can walk into a room andhave it, but you have to feed
into it to be able to let themknow that you're the real deal.
Speaker 1 (50:25):
So you can't dictate trust, you have to show it.
Yes, I sum it all up yes.
Well, that's all we've got fortoday.
Speaker 2 (50:34):
Thank you all, bye, bye.
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