November 15, 2023 • 39 mins
Are you ready to uncover the secret to effective leadership and transformative communication? Join us as we unravel these mysteries with Rich Hopkins, a man of many talents and immense influence. Bring your notepad as Rich, a seasoned keynote speaker, disability advocate, author, sales expert, and presentation coach, takes us behind the scenes of his TEDx journey and shares his empowering 'win anyway' mantra. This episode promises not just an inspiring story but also valuable insights into crafting powerful messages through effective communication.
Hop into this leadership deep-dive with Rich as he shares his journey in leading various Toastmasters teams. We're breaking down the merits and pitfalls of leading from the front, and the hidden value of leading from the back and middle. With Rich’s experiences, we shine a spotlight on the importance of nurturing other leaders and adapting your leadership style to different situations. It's not just about leading; it's about inspiring others to become leaders themselves.
We wrap up by exploring various leadership styles and communication methods. Rich offers practical advice on reducing cognitive load, promoting decision-making ownership, and communicating effectively. He shares his experiences of leading without realizing his inspiring influence and the remarkable power of vulnerability and authenticity. So, come along and learn to ask yourself the most important question, 'Are you living a life worth repeating?' We guarantee you’ll walk away from this episode with a fresh perspective on leadership and communication.
Check out Rich's website : https://www.richhopkins.com/
Tedx : https://www.ted.com/talks/rich_hopkins_your_victory_is_just_around_the_corner
Buy his books: https://www.amazon.com/stores/Rich-Hopkins/author/B07R1L62F8?ref=ap_rdr&store_ref=ap_rdr&isDramIntegrated=true&shoppingPortalEnabled=true
Connect on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/richhopkins/
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCOJqHEhS1CtX3A4nztIBzdA
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Rich Hopkins (00:00):
You want to talk?
Right down to us and a languagethat everybody here can easily
understand.
Do you understand the wordsthat are coming out of my mouth?
What Space, water here, space,what again?
I dare you, I double dare you.
What we got here is a failureto communicate.
The Uncommon Communicat (00:25):
Welcome to the Uncommon Communicator
Podcast, where we are here tobring you right to the topic of
communication today.
It is my pleasure to have as aguest Rich Hopkins.
Rich has over 35 years ofexperience in front of audiences
of every size, from one-to-onegroups to 20, 200, 2000,.
Sharing motivational stories,leading sales presentations and
(00:45):
coaching award-winning speakers.
No matter your audience, age orbackground, including private
companies, entrepreneurs orstudents, learning to win any
way will be crucial to yoursuccess.
He's a humorous andinspirational keynote speaker.
There's a lot of stuff you doDisability advocate, self-esteem
builder, sales expert author,presentation coach and podcastor
(01:10):
, fellow podcaster and then,last but not least, and not in
your LinkedIn profile, also aTEDx speaker.
Rich, it is my pleasure to haveyou on the program, welcome.
Rich Hopkins (01:21):
Thank you.
That introduction was so good,you'd think I'd wrote it myself.
The Uncommon Communicator (01:25):
It's like those words write
themselves sometimes.
Well, welcome to the program.
We're here today.
There's so many topics we couldtalk about and hit on today,
but today we chose that we'regoing to talk about leadership
styles and communicating throughleadership styles.
But the first thing I want totalk about, just within those
styles, is you do have a coupleof books out there and I don't
(01:47):
know that they're necessarilyadvertised all the time, but,
man, you're an author as well.
Actually, did I have that?
Yeah, that was in there as well.
And then also your TEDx speaker.
You're the second TEDx speakeron this program, so I'm super
glad to have you here.
Just tell me a little bit aboutthat experience for you, that
TEDx experience.
Rich Hopkins (02:07):
TEDx was great.
It was something I alwayswanted to do.
I used to apply and apply andapply and get rejected over and
over and over again, and Ihappened to catch one in
Colorado Springs that were theywere kind of at their early
stages.
They weren't a full TEDx yet,they were in their infancy stage
(02:27):
, so they could only have 100people in the audience.
I sent in my idea, then theybrought me down to do a tryout
for them and after I did thetryout, I got the email saying
that I was selected.
So me and 10 other people gotto speak in 2017.
(02:47):
And I used my win anyway topic,which TEDx doesn't always like
motivational topics.
So I really had to work ontwisting my motivational topic
to being something that was moreof an idea and more of
something that people couldapply in their lives, which
actually helped me a lot as Iwas continuing to write my
(03:10):
overall keynote speech around mywin anyway concept.
So TEDx was a great experiencefor me, both in terms of doing
it but also getting ready for it.
The Uncommon Communicator (03:23):
Yeah , and that's what I've heard.
The preparation, the training,did they provide you a coach?
Rich Hopkins (03:27):
They did.
It was a lot of fun.
It's tough when you're alreadya coach to get coached.
You know, yeah, who coaches thecoaches.
Right, I did work with a coachto some degree.
The Uncommon Communicator (03:41):
Yeah , I really do love that process
and I think it's a great deal,and we will post that link in
the show notes as well, as I gotsome notes from that.
And first the win anyway theme.
What a fantastic idea.
Where did you come up?
How long ago did you come upwith this win anyway?
Rich Hopkins (03:59):
I came up with that in 2011, while I was
sitting in a well, I wasbasically a court waiting room
as I was waiting to deal with aticket for not having insurance
on me when I was pulled over forspeeding, and I was there for a
(04:19):
couple of hours with a notebook, trying to think you know, I
really need a theme as a keynotespeaker.
You know, I really don't have.
And so I was just going throughmy mind about all the speeches
I'd ever done in Toastmasters,speeches that had gotten me to
the world championship of publicspeaking.
What were the themes?
What were the ideas Iconstantly talked about?
(04:41):
And it was, you know, notgiving up.
It was perseverance, it wasperspective.
Those were terms and I thought,you know, these are pedantic,
these are used by everybody.
I need to find a way to combineit all and I thought, you know,
I'm the super competitive guy.
(05:02):
I'm always about trying to winthe contest, to win it, life, to
win, no matter what happens,and that's where I came up with
win anyway.
And then figuring out what itreally meant for me to win
anyway, all the different ways Ihad learned to win anyway over
the years, without realizing itwas teaching me to win.
(05:23):
Anyway, I was doing it withoutever having defined it or
turning it into something that Icould actually put out there as
an entire formula, an entireway of life, an entire way of
looking at how you approach whatit is you do, from going after
(05:48):
your goals to just living everysingle day.
The Uncommon Communicator (05:52):
And that's what I love about that,
and you make a great point onein trying to find that theme
You're looking for.
You know what are you going todo as a motivational speaker,
but what you're telling me,though, is it's so much more
than that.
It becomes your lifestyle, andthat's what I think the
connection is, and what I reallylove about any type of play on
words.
I don't know if it is a play onwords, but how you pause and
(06:13):
say when, anyway, can mean twogreat things, like how I once
asked somebody else that I thinkthey it was called a quality
podcast.
I was on their podcast.
I'm like where do you pause?
Is it a quality podcast or isit a quality podcast?
And they're like yes, so I lovethat one.
Anyway, man, you havehashtagged that thing, and that
(06:33):
thing is working well for you.
It's really such a great thingthat you bring.
I did we will leave again thatshow in the show notes a link to
that TEDx talk.
I recommend everybody to take alook at it.
You really hit an emotionalmoment in there as well, too,
when you're talking about yourdaughter, which all ties into
that win anyways, which is justthe power of stories.
(06:54):
So we'll leave a little teaserthere.
People need to go and checkthat out.
It's just a really powerfulstory that you had shared in
there and the timing of that.
But the other thing is I'm justgoing to go I'm like a fanboy
of TEDx here.
I also got your out of that somekeys from the win anyway, kind
of taking some notes from it asyou talked about another story
(07:14):
in there about really it's theperfect example of a TEDx talk,
right, or of a life change andyou talk about.
First you got to review where Iam these are the notes that I
took from it Acknowledge thatyou have achieved it and
celebrate it, and then reset andreformulate and then act.
All of those four things, Ithink, just run through any vein
(07:38):
of anybody who's a leader forone and really anyone that wants
to assess where they're at intheir life in general.
And then I love the part aboutcelebrating it, because we don't
do that enough.
So then, as I did capture somenotes out of that talk, which I
encourage everybody to take alook at that, maybe another time
we can dive into the depths ofwhat came out of listening to
(07:59):
that TEDx talk.
But let's talk about someleadership styles.
Now, this is something thatyou've been in and out of for 35
plus years, right?
You've dealt with communication, you've dealt with leadership,
and there's also you've spoke onit as well, too.
How do you feel, I guess?
What do you feel is the threeleadership style, or leadership
(08:21):
locations?
Is that a better word for it?
Rich Hopkins (08:23):
Maybe I'm not sure.
You know I talk aboutleadership.
I try to simplify it as much aspossible.
You know I'm a big pop culturefan.
So when I talk about leaders, Italk about two great leaders
that I have a tremendous amountof respect for, and they both
(08:43):
have the same job.
And one leads all these peopleand charges into battle ahead of
them, and it is always rightthere, is always putting himself
in danger, but is incrediblywell respected by the people who
he leads.
The other is always sittingback and analyzing and trying to
(09:09):
take as little action aspossible for the situation and
sends the people he leads off todeal with things as they're
able to under his command.
And then I always ask theaudience you know who am I
thinking of?
And I get these answers, likeyou know Eisenhower and Napoleon
(09:30):
.
What do you think, james?
Who do you think I'm talkingabout?
The Uncommon Communicator (09:35):
Well , and I was thinking like
Churchill those were when youwere talking about that, and
then I didn't have thebackground type leader in my
mind.
But yeah, there was a couple ofpeople popping into my head
when you're talking about that.
Rich Hopkins (09:48):
Well, the key there is pop culture, because
the person who leads from thefront is Captain James T Kirk,
whereas the person who leadsfrom the back is Captain John
Luke Picard.
They're both captains of the USSEnterprise and Star Trek in two
different generations and theyhave completely different
(10:09):
leadership styles, and yet theyare both perceived as extremely
strong leaders, not only on TVbut in general, from people who
write about leadership andpeople who look at leadership
styles.
They both have great leadershipstyles.
So those are two of the threethat I talk about, but for me, I
(10:29):
think the most effective can beleading from the middle, where
you are with your crew, you arewith the people you're leading,
so that you are, yes, setting anexample, but also giving them
an opportunity to be leadersthemselves, to do the job for
themselves and not always doingit for them, as the leader in
(10:52):
front is often doing, or justkind of leaving them out there
and hoping they succeed, as theleader from the back is doing.
And there are good things aboutall three traits the best
leader knows which one to be atwhich time.
The Uncommon Communicator (11:10):
So tell me more about this kind of
choosing what leader you are,because I think you're onto
something there.
Rich Hopkins (11:19):
Oh, it's a matter of the situation.
I mean, most of my leadershipexperience has come with
nonprofit organization that Ithink you're rather familiar
with called Toastmasters, andI've been president of many,
many clubs over the years and Ihave, at different times in my
(11:40):
life, been a bit of a controlfreak where I just took charge
and made sure this got done andthat got done and didn't really
worry about whether anybody elsewas doing their job.
And a lot of times it's becausenobody else was doing their job
.
But instead of me being thetype of leader who would
delegate or find people whoactually wanted to do the job,
(12:03):
so I didn't have to.
I just took over, and thatwould be leading from the front,
which can be effective but canalso stress you out, burn you
out and prevent the people thatare supposed to be working with
you from actually learning andleading themselves.
Other times, as I kind of gotover myself, found people who
(12:30):
could take these positions on, Iwas able to lead from the back
and just let them go.
But usually there's always thatpoint where you know somebody
has to drop out of theirposition and you have to work
with everybody to make sure thatposition gets covered, or you
(12:50):
have to really work with peopleto teach them what they're doing
and make sure that they arekeeping up on what it is they
need to keep up on, and that's alittle bit more leadership from
the middle.
So those are where I've reallylearned.
Those different styles is basedon the leadership teams I've
had at any given time.
(13:11):
That's also what I've observedwhen I haven't been president,
when I've been VP of PR, vp ofmembership in watching what the
president does in thosesituations and seeing how
sometimes the president isleading from the back so far
that it's the VP of education inTostmasters that is really the
(13:34):
main leader, or even the VP ofmembership taking the lead, and
watching those differentpersonalities, the different
dynamics.
You can learn a lot bylistening and watching instead
of just spending all your timetalking, which I've done for the
last five minutes now.
The Uncommon Communicator (13:54):
I was not timing it at all, but
that's why you're on the show,You're doing great, but you make
some really great points, whichis that you have to alter that
leadership style.
I think there's an assumptionthat we picture that type, a
authoritative type of leader, asthe rah, rah, let's go get them
type of leader.
But in reality a true leader ofmen and women, leader of people
(14:18):
, is somebody who's there todevelop other leaders, and
that's my perspective from itand that's why I like the idea
from the middle and also fromthe back, to be able to allow
leaders to experience it.
Sometimes they've got to makesome mistakes but if you're out
there in the front leading it,you're not watching them.
But there's been times and I'veseen it within my career, I've
(14:39):
seen it on projects where ifsomebody would just step up, we
can get the ball moving andthat's where it takes that type
of leader.
And I found at times where thisfrom the middle or from the
back type approach wasn'teffective for me, because I
really needed somebody to justgrab that chain fall.
And this is a specific story.
Like we had, we took us threedays or three shifts to get this
(15:02):
one piece of conveyor up in theair on this project.
I mean, it was up, we had tobuild a deck underneath it, but
the night shift was gonna do it.
And then I come in and they'relike, didn't get it done.
Then they were struggling, Thenthe day shift and then finally
that third shift is when ournight superintendent he just
took the you know bowl by thehorns and he put the rigging on
himself, started pulling chainfalls and people jumped in and
(15:22):
they got it up.
So he had to lead from thatposition.
He was very similar to me aswell in that from the middle.
So it's such and that's why I'msaying that you know that the
whole you're onto something isit's all about really finding
the right moment and the righttime.
I felt like in that case it wasa lesson learned, because I
waited too long before you justwent out there and do it, Cause
the last thing, very last thingI wanna do in the world is to
(15:45):
take a tool out of somebody'shands, and you do that if you
step into somebody else's roleand try to lead them when
they're the leader.
But I think those are great.
I think you broke those downreally to a simple, you know
mindset of the front, the middle, and did you say the rear.
Is that where we're leadingfrom?
I chose the back, the back.
(16:07):
Okay, that's much better.
I'm gonna use that word fromthe back.
Now, how have you, how have youaltered your style, your
leadership styles before?
Rich Hopkins (16:19):
Well, it's pretty much based on who I'm leading
with.
Who am I leading?
Who am I leading with?
Those situations are different.
You have to get to know theteam and get to know who you can
lead from behind and who youcan lead from the front, who you
can lead with in the middle,and a lot of times you can't
(16:43):
find a whole group that isconsistent.
You have to deal with thedifferent people in your group
in different ways.
You know, sometimes you have tobe careful.
You talk about not taking thetool out of their hand.
Well, it depends if they'reusing that tool in a damaging
way.
Sometimes you need to take thattool out of their hands and
show them how to use it.
Sometimes a chainsaw is moredangerous if you don't take it
(17:07):
out of their hands.
The Uncommon Communicator (17:10):
Or maybe a leadership tip don't
give the chainsaw to somebodywho's using it.
But yeah, that's exactly one ofthe things that I think we
struggle with as leaders isreally trying to find ways to
communicate differently as wellthrough those different
leadership roles, because reallyin the lead and in the front
you're like come on, guys, let'sgo, but how do you communicate
(17:34):
differently when communicatingfrom the middle?
Rich Hopkins (17:38):
Communicating from the middle is usually just
a little bit more measured,because Tufts Masters has these
definitions of differentleadership styles, and for me,
I've been defined as democraticand authoritative.
Which does not surprise me,because that's pretty much how I
(18:01):
describe myself earlier is thatearly on, I was somebody who
led from the front authoritativeand then I learned how to step
back and be democratic, whichmeans letting other people take
the lead or learning what kindof leadership they need.
When you're in the middle,you're balancing communicating
(18:26):
outward with communicatinginward, which means listening.
Communicating inward is lettingthem communicate to you, and
when they communicate with you,you learn how to communicate
with them.
In sales, it's called mirroring.
You know you have this potentialclient, You're not going to
talk to them the same way youdid with the client you saw an
(18:47):
hour ago.
If they're not the same type ofcommunicator, you need to talk
with them on their level, attheir tone, address their needs,
and you don't get that unlessyou're listening.
And if you're leading from theback, you're basically just
(19:07):
saying, okay, you do this andyou do this, you do that, and
then you sit back.
If you're leading from thefront, you're saying, okay,
watch me and then do what I do.
If you're leading from themiddle, you're talking back and
forth with them about you couldtry this.
What do you think you should do?
Or maybe start with how do youperceive this job?
(19:29):
What do you think this shouldbe like?
Well then, what do you thinkabout this?
And then it becomes aconversation.
And that's why I think leadingfrom the middle in general is
the best style, because itinvolves everybody and creates
that conversation and allowsideas from all sides and can
(19:50):
even bring in ideas not just ona one-to-one basis, but from the
entire group.
The Uncommon Communicator (19:56):
It creates a ownership as well when
you're asking somebody.
That's probably one of myfavorite leadership tricks and
also a trick to reduce yourcognitive load, or decision load
as I like to call it.
You know, in my role as asuperintendent, we're making
decisions all day long and for alot of people and for a lot of
different situations, andthere's times where you get this
(20:17):
decision fatigue and then youstart making bad decisions or
wrong decisions or you're justtired and that's all part of
leading.
But what I have found is a lotof times like somebody will come
up with just this I don't know,what are we going to do here.
I need a decision right now.
And then I'll ask them and theyhave a great idea.
So I'm like, all right, let'sdo that.
(20:37):
And so not only did they notonly take that decision fatigue
away from me, but also they hada great idea and then when I
said, go do it, it was theiridea and they had ownership from
it.
It's a win all the way aroundand that is that kind of leading
from the middle.
But I like your approach inthat, in that communication
style of really it's almostbecomes asking questions and
(21:00):
guiding, it's a guiding type ofleadership.
Rich Hopkins (21:03):
Now, james, it's not win all around, it's win
anyway.
The Uncommon Communicato (21:07):
That's the way we win anyway.
Hashtag yes, see, I didn't wantto have to pay the copyright on
that.
You're going to let me use itduring the show.
I'll use it as many times as wecan.
Now you did touch on theToastmasters leadership styles
and I would recommend anybodywho is a leader of any kind to
look at what their styles are,and there's numerous tests out
(21:29):
there.
Toastmasters does one throughone of the pathways where you
can go I think it's everypathway you can go in and find
out what your leadership styleis, and they break it down into
eight different categories.
I've seen them broken down intosix or just different styles
that you can look at, but for meand for others most everybody
it's a little bit eye-opening.
The first time You're like Ididn't think I was that way,
(21:49):
because the way they ask thequestions isn't necessarily how
you perceive yourself.
So I would encourage anybody todo that and then also do it
again, because you're yourleadership styles.
Your communication styles change, which in some cases they
should right, becausecommunication is a practice.
Leadership is a practice.
(22:09):
I think there's some naturalborn leaders, people that lead
in that authoritative style.
That's what we call leaders,but every bit of leadership can
be learned, and communication isthe same way, where
communication is something,those styles you develop in your
learn, and that's what you weretalking about.
Now let's I do want to talk alittle more about leading from
the back, because I think thatone I don't often think much
(22:33):
about that side of it, leadingfrom the back- Well, leading
from the back is kind of theultimate in trying to empower
everybody else, and so it couldbe good or bad.
Rich Hopkins (22:48):
It's bad if you are leading from the back
because you don't want to leadin any other way.
You want to put all the riskand all the potential blame on
everybody else.
But if you're doing it from amotive of empowering people,
encouraging them, giving themopportunity not only to succeed
(23:09):
but to fail not so they can failand be discarded, but fail and
learn from that failure so theycan then succeed again the next
time they try it then leadingfrom behind is a good thing, you
know.
But you know, if you reallywant to get into, like military
style, generals typically aren'tgoing to lead their troops from
(23:31):
the front because they'reconsidered too valuable.
You have ranks that aren'tgoing to lead from the front.
Now, most of us are not living amilitary life, and so that's we
don't have to deal withleadership in quite that way or
with those consequences.
You know we aren't leading lifeand death missions.
(23:54):
We are trying to lead a salesteam or a construction team, and
that just means empoweringpeople and giving them the
opportunity to learn and havingthe right motives, no matter
what you're doing, whetheryou're leading from the back,
middle or front your motivationis usually key in whether or not
(24:16):
you're doing it well and to thebenefit of the people you're
leading.
The Uncommon Communicator (24:22):
Yeah , that's a great point and you
know, with that from the back,leading from the back one thing
that kind of pops in my mind isalso leading upward, and I think
they're a little bit different.
That's why I like your, yourtake on that and really take
leading from the back.
But there is something likesometimes you're not in charge
and that other person needs tobe in charge because it's their
(24:45):
role.
You know, it's their title,their responsibilities, but you
want to help guide that as welltoo.
So I think there's a little bitof leading upward that also
comes from the middle and fromthe back as well, because you,
you want to be able to hopefullyhave a good enough relationship
with the other leader to guidethem and coach them and be open
(25:05):
enough to steer possibly steerthe direction and to save a
direction, especially if they'renot a strong leader.
You have to be able to leadfrom, you know, from the middle,
in that regards, and I thinkthat's a skill set as well.
Have you experienced anyleading upward or leading?
Yeah, is that the right word?
Yeah, leading upward.
Rich Hopkins (25:25):
Leading upward?
I'm not completely clear onyour definition of leading
upward, to know if I'veexperienced or not.
The Uncommon Communicator (25:34):
So let's yeah, let me, let me try
it this way.
So it's the idea is you've gota leader, you're you're the
second in command, and thatleader Need some guidance on
some things.
So what you do in that secondin command is you're kind of
feeding them information, reallymaking them look good in some
ways, but also supporting them,but not necessarily leading.
(25:57):
But at the end of the day, ifyou know you were to look back
and assess yourself, you canthink, man, I mean, I made and
supported those decisions thatthat leader made, right.
Rich Hopkins (26:07):
Yeah, career-wise I've not really ever been in
that position.
In the leadership positionsI've been in, especially say,
the last 10 years, because I'vebeen in Toss Masters for 24
years, so the last 10 years I'vekind of been considered an
expert, the alumni, the guy thatyou go to when you have a
(26:30):
question.
So, even if I'm not in aleadership position in a club,
I'm in a leadership position andthat's.
That's where I'm kind of thethe first mate, the number one
in Star Trek terms, the firstofficer, however you want to put
it.
But ultimately, if you'rerelying on a first officer, you
(26:53):
are Learning not to lead fromthe back.
You are literally learningleading from the middle, you are
moving closer towards themiddle leadership position Then
if you were totally leading fromthe back, because then you're
not taking advice from anybody,you're telling other people what
to go do, but that's talking inextremes.
(27:16):
You know you've got the wayback, you've got the back that's
closer to the middle.
Oh, I guess I'm doing this inreverse, to do it like this in
the way back, and you're gettingcloser to the middle, no, and
then then suddenly you'releading from the front, way too
far in the front.
So the more you can be in themiddle, the better off you're
(27:36):
going to be this.
Does that answer question?
Yeah, that does, and it's it,my story.
The Uncommon Communicator (27:44):
It doesn't necessarily come from me
, but I used to have a Scenario.
I won't actually drop names inthis case, but I called it his
puppet regime, because you know,he was my boss but it seemed
like he had a ton of influence,and that's the word where I'm
gonna go with over the otherperson making decisions.
So if I needed something I'dmention it to him and and then,
before you knew it, it wouldhappen.
So it was kind of his.
(28:05):
His puppet regime is what Icalled it in regards to
influence, and I think that'ssomething when we talk about
leadership and that's kind of, Ithink, where I was going with
that.
And as far as from leading fromyou know, from you know, a
position, a lower position, isthat we have, at times, more
influence than we have,leadership role, and I think
(28:28):
that's what you're talking aboutas well too.
You know, when rich Hopkinswalks in a room, it's different
than when just all James Gablewalks in a room.
You know you have a little bitmore influence when you go in
there because of your experience, because of your reputation,
because of all of the input thatyou've put in, you know, to
those, those groups and reallyin the world of speaking, you
have a different level ofinfluence.
(28:49):
So a lot of.
Rich Hopkins (28:50):
I've never been a top three officer, though, like
you are, you're a big wig.
The Uncommon Communicator (28:55):
Yeah , well, let's come on, let's
come join us, man, come on in.
But that's something that Ithink is People need to take
into account in the idea as aleadership as well, too, in that
you can have influence, andthat influence is just as
important in any level ofleadership.
You know what?
What do they call a leader thatdoesn't have any followers?
(29:17):
It's just a guy out on a walkyou go, so you got to have some,
some followers to be a leader,and that doesn't necessarily
meet in the paid Category aswell either.
Well, what else do we want totalk about in regards to
communication from a leader specperspective?
Rich Hopkins (29:39):
well, there's.
There's a definition ofleadership, a not.
It's more of a Level ofleadership that I always talk
about on my key notes.
It isn't one of those mainthree and it's the the invisible
leader, kind of the the unawareleader.
When I was going through theworld championship Effort back
(30:04):
in 2006 and 2008 and failing, Imean, I took third in 2006,
which is great, but at the sametime, it just means you're the
second loser and then you're thesecond loser.
The Uncommon Communicator (30:16):
To how many applicants right?
Rich Hopkins (30:20):
But I hear what you're saying 2008 I did not
place at all.
So you know, when you don'tplace you just say you were tied
for fourth, and you know thatworks out too.
But in 2008 they made adocumentary called speak about
the world championship.
I think you've seen that and ifyou if you haven't, I've got a
(30:42):
DVD in my basement I can giveyou.
The Uncommon Communicator (30:44):
I was actually looking for it this
morning because it is on Amazon, believe it is not for like 399
or 299, 299, yeah, uh, anyway.
Rich Hopkins (30:55):
So there's this movie that Shows me that year
and you know, I'm prettyconfident because I'd gone in
2006, and I'm all excitedbecause I think they're making a
documentary about me going towin the world championship.
Well, it turns out, of course,that I did not win the world
championship, and so it justshows me struggling through the
(31:16):
summer as I was practicing, as Iwas getting a new leg you know
I was, I had, I went through anamputation in 2006 and was
getting another mechanical legin 2008 in preparation for that
particular world championship,so that I could have a better
walk on stage.
(31:36):
And then it, of course, coversthe contest itself and at the
End of that contest, as they'reannouncing the winners, you have
Me and the winner in the splitscreen as they're announcing and
you know I'm all happy becauseI haven't heard my name for
third or second.
Nobody wants to be called forthird or second.
(31:58):
But then, of course, the otherperson wins and you see her
jumping up and down and allexcited, and you see me going,
and I'm really glad that I don'thave a microphone on at that
moment in time, but if you're agood liberator.
You kind of know what's goingon at that moment in time.
And then they follow me home onthe plane and they follow me
(32:24):
home in a car and they interviewme and I change clothes so it
looks like it may be another day, but it's really right.
After I've shown up on the plane, I'm exhausted, I'm depressed.
They're trying to do aninterview with me about how I'm
feeling.
Well, I feel like crap, thankyou very much.
And my wife's next to me andthey're asking her and she's
(32:48):
like oh, things are going to beOK, right, honey, things are
going to be OK, right.
I'm just like I don't know it's.
I'm exhausted, it's hilarious,it's really it's hilarious in
the midst of it.
And you know that that story isa big part of learning how to
win anyway.
At that point, just three yearsbefore, I really came up with
(33:11):
Condensing all the differentthings that has happened in my
life into that moment, into thatwin anyway concept.
But I say that, say this 2014.
I win district here in Denverfor District 26.
Which you're helping to lead,and that year it goes to
(33:34):
Malaysia.
So I fly to Malaysia, I competein the semifinals when they
were still in person that wayand I don't place.
I go and watch the WorldChampionship and Dan and Jaya
Hederaji or how he pronouncedhis last name wins Just going
(33:55):
away.
Everybody knew we won thecontest Fantastic job.
I get on the plane, I come backfrom Malaysia and I do what
everybody does when they have anew World Champion they go on
Facebook and they friend the guyor, yeah, whoever it is,
because you want to get therebefore.
They have too many friends andthey can't friend you back.
So I friend Dan and Jaya.
(34:19):
Now here's the deal the nextmorning there is a post on my
Facebook wall from Dan and JayaSaying how Inspired he was by
watching me and speak, and nowhe was ready to quit the contest
after years of not making theWorld Championship.
(34:42):
But then he saw the movie andrealized that you didn't have to
give up.
You just keep trying, you justkeep going forward.
And I've still got the message.
When I'm giving a keynote, I'llread the message that he left.
(35:03):
But basically, this guy I'venever met until until that day
when I happened to catch him inpassing really quick after one
shook his hand, was inspired byme, who wasn't trying to inspire
anybody.
See, people are watching youand you don't know who it is.
(35:24):
There are kids watching you.
There are people you work withwatching you.
People you go to churchwatching you.
People you go to Toastmasterswith their Kiwanis or Rotary,
whatever it is you do, there arepeople watching you and you
will never know that they'rewatching you and you are leading
them Without knowing it.
(35:46):
And now you have to askyourself are you living a life
worth Watching?
The Uncommon Communicator (35:58):
I'm gonna let that, I'm gonna let
that pause.
Sit there for a minute.
Man, that is that.
What a fantastic story, rich,and that I've never heard it
spelled out so clearly about theinfluence that we have that we
don't know.
And that's why I think I lovenot I think I know, I love the
win anyway idea, because whenyou take what In some would
(36:20):
picture as a loss, even foryourself and I'm talking about
having to tell these things youknow to yourself Because that
was told to you by thisgentleman, a story you didn't
even know that you hadinfluenced him, the winner that
year of that was inspired by youas you kind of told that story
through that documentary, andthat's just such an incredible
(36:42):
thing where we do, we influenceand we impact and we motivate
and that's a great challenge is,you know, are you living a life
worth repeating?
You know those are just greatwords in regards to leadership
and the communication.
So I really appreciate yousharing that story.
That was that is inspiring forme and I think it's also the
(37:02):
thing that we tend To touch on alot within the uncommon
communicator is vulnerabilityand then being authentic.
You know, those are things thatwhen you really Can talk
through the things that you'vemessed up.
My last guest, jesse Hernandez,big, big time into
vulnerability.
I'm just barely encroaching onit because I have so many
feelings I haven't even foundyet.
(37:23):
I'm finding more of them and Idon't know if I'm liking it, but
I'm growing by it, and what youjust shared is such a
vulnerable moment of of growththat influences others, and the
whole key is this You're notalone, right, and that's the
biggest thing, and sometimes youhave to tell yourself that as
well.
So what an inspiring story.
(37:43):
Well, rich, it's been a pleasurehaving you on the show, having
you on the program.
It's been a pleasure knowingyou and working with you.
You're on the education teamfor the district you are
definitely supporting.
I've been a huge supporter ofToastmasters and for speakers
everywhere.
How would you sum up today's UCmoment?
That's the uncommoncommunicator moment.
What's the one thing thatpeople should walk away with
(38:05):
from today's conversation?
Rich Hopkins (38:08):
If you're in a leadership position, you need to
realize that listening is justas important as communicating
outward, because communicationis two ways.
You have to hear what they'resaying so that you can
understand how they need to becommunicated to, because there's
(38:30):
always the way.
There's always what you thinkyou're saying versus what
they're hearing you say, andunless you listen to them long
enough to understand how theycommunicate, you won't know how
to communicate.
Communicate properly with them.
That means creatingconversation.
What is talking?
Talking combined with listening, it's conversation.
(38:53):
So converse making conversationis part of your leadership
style.
It's essential and it's far toorare, I think, in a lot of
today's society.
The Uncommon Communi (39:08):
Completely agree.
Today's UC moment, leadershipis listening and communicating,
brought to you by Rich Hopkins.
Thanks everybody, that's allwe've got.
See you guys.
You want to talk?
Right down to us and a languagethat everybody here can easily
understand.
Do you understand the wordsthat are coming out of my mouth?
What Space, water here, space,what again?
I dare you, I double dare you.
What we got here is a failureto communicate.
The Uncommon Communicat (00:25):
Welcome to the Uncommon Communicator
Podcast, where we are here tobring you right to the topic of
communication today.
It is my pleasure to have as aguest Rich Hopkins.
Rich has over 35 years ofexperience in front of audiences
of every size, from one-to-onegroups to 20, 200, 2000,.
Sharing motivational stories,leading sales presentations and
(00:45):
coaching award-winning speakers.
No matter your audience, age orbackground, including private
companies, entrepreneurs orstudents, learning to win any
way will be crucial to yoursuccess.
He's a humorous andinspirational keynote speaker.
There's a lot of stuff you doDisability advocate, self-esteem
builder, sales expert author,presentation coach and podcastor
(01:10):
, fellow podcaster and then,last but not least, and not in
your LinkedIn profile, also aTEDx speaker.
Rich, it is my pleasure to haveyou on the program, welcome.
Rich Hopkins (01:21):
Thank you.
That introduction was so good,you'd think I'd wrote it myself.
The Uncommon Communicator (01:25):
It's like those words write
themselves sometimes.
Well, welcome to the program.
We're here today.
There's so many topics we couldtalk about and hit on today,
but today we chose that we'regoing to talk about leadership
styles and communicating throughleadership styles.
But the first thing I want totalk about, just within those
styles, is you do have a coupleof books out there and I don't
(01:47):
know that they're necessarilyadvertised all the time, but,
man, you're an author as well.
Actually, did I have that?
Yeah, that was in there as well.
And then also your TEDx speaker.
You're the second TEDx speakeron this program, so I'm super
glad to have you here.
Just tell me a little bit aboutthat experience for you, that
TEDx experience.
Rich Hopkins (02:07):
TEDx was great.
It was something I alwayswanted to do.
I used to apply and apply andapply and get rejected over and
over and over again, and Ihappened to catch one in
Colorado Springs that were theywere kind of at their early
stages.
They weren't a full TEDx yet,they were in their infancy stage
(02:27):
, so they could only have 100people in the audience.
I sent in my idea, then theybrought me down to do a tryout
for them and after I did thetryout, I got the email saying
that I was selected.
So me and 10 other people gotto speak in 2017.
(02:47):
And I used my win anyway topic,which TEDx doesn't always like
motivational topics.
So I really had to work ontwisting my motivational topic
to being something that was moreof an idea and more of
something that people couldapply in their lives, which
actually helped me a lot as Iwas continuing to write my
(03:10):
overall keynote speech around mywin anyway concept.
So TEDx was a great experiencefor me, both in terms of doing
it but also getting ready for it.
The Uncommon Communicator (03:23):
Yeah , and that's what I've heard.
The preparation, the training,did they provide you a coach?
Rich Hopkins (03:27):
They did.
It was a lot of fun.
It's tough when you're alreadya coach to get coached.
You know, yeah, who coaches thecoaches.
Right, I did work with a coachto some degree.
The Uncommon Communicator (03:41):
Yeah , I really do love that process
and I think it's a great deal,and we will post that link in
the show notes as well, as I gotsome notes from that.
And first the win anyway theme.
What a fantastic idea.
Where did you come up?
How long ago did you come upwith this win anyway?
Rich Hopkins (03:59):
I came up with that in 2011, while I was
sitting in a well, I wasbasically a court waiting room
as I was waiting to deal with aticket for not having insurance
on me when I was pulled over forspeeding, and I was there for a
(04:19):
couple of hours with a notebook, trying to think you know, I
really need a theme as a keynotespeaker.
You know, I really don't have.
And so I was just going throughmy mind about all the speeches
I'd ever done in Toastmasters,speeches that had gotten me to
the world championship of publicspeaking.
What were the themes?
What were the ideas Iconstantly talked about?
(04:41):
And it was, you know, notgiving up.
It was perseverance, it wasperspective.
Those were terms and I thought,you know, these are pedantic,
these are used by everybody.
I need to find a way to combineit all and I thought, you know,
I'm the super competitive guy.
(05:02):
I'm always about trying to winthe contest, to win it, life, to
win, no matter what happens,and that's where I came up with
win anyway.
And then figuring out what itreally meant for me to win
anyway, all the different ways Ihad learned to win anyway over
the years, without realizing itwas teaching me to win.
(05:23):
Anyway, I was doing it withoutever having defined it or
turning it into something that Icould actually put out there as
an entire formula, an entireway of life, an entire way of
looking at how you approach whatit is you do, from going after
(05:48):
your goals to just living everysingle day.
The Uncommon Communicator (05:52):
And that's what I love about that,
and you make a great point onein trying to find that theme
You're looking for.
You know what are you going todo as a motivational speaker,
but what you're telling me,though, is it's so much more
than that.
It becomes your lifestyle, andthat's what I think the
connection is, and what I reallylove about any type of play on
words.
I don't know if it is a play onwords, but how you pause and
(06:13):
say when, anyway, can mean twogreat things, like how I once
asked somebody else that I thinkthey it was called a quality
podcast.
I was on their podcast.
I'm like where do you pause?
Is it a quality podcast or isit a quality podcast?
And they're like yes, so I lovethat one.
Anyway, man, you havehashtagged that thing, and that
(06:33):
thing is working well for you.
It's really such a great thingthat you bring.
I did we will leave again thatshow in the show notes a link to
that TEDx talk.
I recommend everybody to take alook at it.
You really hit an emotionalmoment in there as well, too,
when you're talking about yourdaughter, which all ties into
that win anyways, which is justthe power of stories.
(06:54):
So we'll leave a little teaserthere.
People need to go and checkthat out.
It's just a really powerfulstory that you had shared in
there and the timing of that.
But the other thing is I'm justgoing to go I'm like a fanboy
of TEDx here.
I also got your out of that somekeys from the win anyway, kind
of taking some notes from it asyou talked about another story
(07:14):
in there about really it's theperfect example of a TEDx talk,
right, or of a life change andyou talk about.
First you got to review where Iam these are the notes that I
took from it Acknowledge thatyou have achieved it and
celebrate it, and then reset andreformulate and then act.
All of those four things, Ithink, just run through any vein
(07:38):
of anybody who's a leader forone and really anyone that wants
to assess where they're at intheir life in general.
And then I love the part aboutcelebrating it, because we don't
do that enough.
So then, as I did capture somenotes out of that talk, which I
encourage everybody to take alook at that, maybe another time
we can dive into the depths ofwhat came out of listening to
(07:59):
that TEDx talk.
But let's talk about someleadership styles.
Now, this is something thatyou've been in and out of for 35
plus years, right?
You've dealt with communication, you've dealt with leadership,
and there's also you've spoke onit as well, too.
How do you feel, I guess?
What do you feel is the threeleadership style, or leadership
(08:21):
locations?
Is that a better word for it?
Rich Hopkins (08:23):
Maybe I'm not sure.
You know I talk aboutleadership.
I try to simplify it as much aspossible.
You know I'm a big pop culturefan.
So when I talk about leaders, Italk about two great leaders
that I have a tremendous amountof respect for, and they both
(08:43):
have the same job.
And one leads all these peopleand charges into battle ahead of
them, and it is always rightthere, is always putting himself
in danger, but is incrediblywell respected by the people who
he leads.
The other is always sittingback and analyzing and trying to
(09:09):
take as little action aspossible for the situation and
sends the people he leads off todeal with things as they're
able to under his command.
And then I always ask theaudience you know who am I
thinking of?
And I get these answers, likeyou know Eisenhower and Napoleon
(09:30):
.
What do you think, james?
Who do you think I'm talkingabout?
The Uncommon Communicator (09:35):
Well , and I was thinking like
Churchill those were when youwere talking about that, and
then I didn't have thebackground type leader in my
mind.
But yeah, there was a couple ofpeople popping into my head
when you're talking about that.
Rich Hopkins (09:48):
Well, the key there is pop culture, because
the person who leads from thefront is Captain James T Kirk,
whereas the person who leadsfrom the back is Captain John
Luke Picard.
They're both captains of the USSEnterprise and Star Trek in two
different generations and theyhave completely different
(10:09):
leadership styles, and yet theyare both perceived as extremely
strong leaders, not only on TVbut in general, from people who
write about leadership andpeople who look at leadership
styles.
They both have great leadershipstyles.
So those are two of the threethat I talk about, but for me, I
(10:29):
think the most effective can beleading from the middle, where
you are with your crew, you arewith the people you're leading,
so that you are, yes, setting anexample, but also giving them
an opportunity to be leadersthemselves, to do the job for
themselves and not always doingit for them, as the leader in
(10:52):
front is often doing, or justkind of leaving them out there
and hoping they succeed, as theleader from the back is doing.
And there are good things aboutall three traits the best
leader knows which one to be atwhich time.
The Uncommon Communicator (11:10):
So tell me more about this kind of
choosing what leader you are,because I think you're onto
something there.
Rich Hopkins (11:19):
Oh, it's a matter of the situation.
I mean, most of my leadershipexperience has come with
nonprofit organization that Ithink you're rather familiar
with called Toastmasters, andI've been president of many,
many clubs over the years and Ihave, at different times in my
(11:40):
life, been a bit of a controlfreak where I just took charge
and made sure this got done andthat got done and didn't really
worry about whether anybody elsewas doing their job.
And a lot of times it's becausenobody else was doing their job
.
But instead of me being thetype of leader who would
delegate or find people whoactually wanted to do the job,
(12:03):
so I didn't have to.
I just took over, and thatwould be leading from the front,
which can be effective but canalso stress you out, burn you
out and prevent the people thatare supposed to be working with
you from actually learning andleading themselves.
Other times, as I kind of gotover myself, found people who
(12:30):
could take these positions on, Iwas able to lead from the back
and just let them go.
But usually there's always thatpoint where you know somebody
has to drop out of theirposition and you have to work
with everybody to make sure thatposition gets covered, or you
(12:50):
have to really work with peopleto teach them what they're doing
and make sure that they arekeeping up on what it is they
need to keep up on, and that's alittle bit more leadership from
the middle.
So those are where I've reallylearned.
Those different styles is basedon the leadership teams I've
had at any given time.
(13:11):
That's also what I've observedwhen I haven't been president,
when I've been VP of PR, vp ofmembership in watching what the
president does in thosesituations and seeing how
sometimes the president isleading from the back so far
that it's the VP of education inTostmasters that is really the
(13:34):
main leader, or even the VP ofmembership taking the lead, and
watching those differentpersonalities, the different
dynamics.
You can learn a lot bylistening and watching instead
of just spending all your timetalking, which I've done for the
last five minutes now.
The Uncommon Communicator (13:54):
I was not timing it at all, but
that's why you're on the show,You're doing great, but you make
some really great points, whichis that you have to alter that
leadership style.
I think there's an assumptionthat we picture that type, a
authoritative type of leader, asthe rah, rah, let's go get them
type of leader.
But in reality a true leader ofmen and women, leader of people
(14:18):
, is somebody who's there todevelop other leaders, and
that's my perspective from itand that's why I like the idea
from the middle and also fromthe back, to be able to allow
leaders to experience it.
Sometimes they've got to makesome mistakes but if you're out
there in the front leading it,you're not watching them.
But there's been times and I'veseen it within my career, I've
(14:39):
seen it on projects where ifsomebody would just step up, we
can get the ball moving andthat's where it takes that type
of leader.
And I found at times where thisfrom the middle or from the
back type approach wasn'teffective for me, because I
really needed somebody to justgrab that chain fall.
And this is a specific story.
Like we had, we took us threedays or three shifts to get this
(15:02):
one piece of conveyor up in theair on this project.
I mean, it was up, we had tobuild a deck underneath it, but
the night shift was gonna do it.
And then I come in and they'relike, didn't get it done.
Then they were struggling, Thenthe day shift and then finally
that third shift is when ournight superintendent he just
took the you know bowl by thehorns and he put the rigging on
himself, started pulling chainfalls and people jumped in and
(15:22):
they got it up.
So he had to lead from thatposition.
He was very similar to me aswell in that from the middle.
So it's such and that's why I'msaying that you know that the
whole you're onto something isit's all about really finding
the right moment and the righttime.
I felt like in that case it wasa lesson learned, because I
waited too long before you justwent out there and do it, Cause
the last thing, very last thingI wanna do in the world is to
(15:45):
take a tool out of somebody'shands, and you do that if you
step into somebody else's roleand try to lead them when
they're the leader.
But I think those are great.
I think you broke those downreally to a simple, you know
mindset of the front, the middle, and did you say the rear.
Is that where we're leadingfrom?
I chose the back, the back.
(16:07):
Okay, that's much better.
I'm gonna use that word fromthe back.
Now, how have you, how have youaltered your style, your
leadership styles before?
Rich Hopkins (16:19):
Well, it's pretty much based on who I'm leading
with.
Who am I leading?
Who am I leading with?
Those situations are different.
You have to get to know theteam and get to know who you can
lead from behind and who youcan lead from the front, who you
can lead with in the middle,and a lot of times you can't
(16:43):
find a whole group that isconsistent.
You have to deal with thedifferent people in your group
in different ways.
You know, sometimes you have tobe careful.
You talk about not taking thetool out of their hand.
Well, it depends if they'reusing that tool in a damaging
way.
Sometimes you need to take thattool out of their hands and
show them how to use it.
Sometimes a chainsaw is moredangerous if you don't take it
(17:07):
out of their hands.
The Uncommon Communicator (17:10):
Or maybe a leadership tip don't
give the chainsaw to somebodywho's using it.
But yeah, that's exactly one ofthe things that I think we
struggle with as leaders isreally trying to find ways to
communicate differently as wellthrough those different
leadership roles, because reallyin the lead and in the front
you're like come on, guys, let'sgo, but how do you communicate
(17:34):
differently when communicatingfrom the middle?
Rich Hopkins (17:38):
Communicating from the middle is usually just
a little bit more measured,because Tufts Masters has these
definitions of differentleadership styles, and for me,
I've been defined as democraticand authoritative.
Which does not surprise me,because that's pretty much how I
(18:01):
describe myself earlier is thatearly on, I was somebody who
led from the front authoritativeand then I learned how to step
back and be democratic, whichmeans letting other people take
the lead or learning what kindof leadership they need.
When you're in the middle,you're balancing communicating
(18:26):
outward with communicatinginward, which means listening.
Communicating inward is lettingthem communicate to you, and
when they communicate with you,you learn how to communicate
with them.
In sales, it's called mirroring.
You know you have this potentialclient, You're not going to
talk to them the same way youdid with the client you saw an
(18:47):
hour ago.
If they're not the same type ofcommunicator, you need to talk
with them on their level, attheir tone, address their needs,
and you don't get that unlessyou're listening.
And if you're leading from theback, you're basically just
(19:07):
saying, okay, you do this andyou do this, you do that, and
then you sit back.
If you're leading from thefront, you're saying, okay,
watch me and then do what I do.
If you're leading from themiddle, you're talking back and
forth with them about you couldtry this.
What do you think you should do?
Or maybe start with how do youperceive this job?
(19:29):
What do you think this shouldbe like?
Well then, what do you thinkabout this?
And then it becomes aconversation.
And that's why I think leadingfrom the middle in general is
the best style, because itinvolves everybody and creates
that conversation and allowsideas from all sides and can
(19:50):
even bring in ideas not just ona one-to-one basis, but from the
entire group.
The Uncommon Communicator (19:56):
It creates a ownership as well when
you're asking somebody.
That's probably one of myfavorite leadership tricks and
also a trick to reduce yourcognitive load, or decision load
as I like to call it.
You know, in my role as asuperintendent, we're making
decisions all day long and for alot of people and for a lot of
different situations, andthere's times where you get this
(20:17):
decision fatigue and then youstart making bad decisions or
wrong decisions or you're justtired and that's all part of
leading.
But what I have found is a lotof times like somebody will come
up with just this I don't know,what are we going to do here.
I need a decision right now.
And then I'll ask them and theyhave a great idea.
So I'm like, all right, let'sdo that.
(20:37):
And so not only did they notonly take that decision fatigue
away from me, but also they hada great idea and then when I
said, go do it, it was theiridea and they had ownership from
it.
It's a win all the way aroundand that is that kind of leading
from the middle.
But I like your approach inthat, in that communication
style of really it's almostbecomes asking questions and
(21:00):
guiding, it's a guiding type ofleadership.
Rich Hopkins (21:03):
Now, james, it's not win all around, it's win
anyway.
The Uncommon Communicato (21:07):
That's the way we win anyway.
Hashtag yes, see, I didn't wantto have to pay the copyright on
that.
You're going to let me use itduring the show.
I'll use it as many times as wecan.
Now you did touch on theToastmasters leadership styles
and I would recommend anybodywho is a leader of any kind to
look at what their styles are,and there's numerous tests out
(21:29):
there.
Toastmasters does one throughone of the pathways where you
can go I think it's everypathway you can go in and find
out what your leadership styleis, and they break it down into
eight different categories.
I've seen them broken down intosix or just different styles
that you can look at, but for meand for others most everybody
it's a little bit eye-opening.
The first time You're like Ididn't think I was that way,
(21:49):
because the way they ask thequestions isn't necessarily how
you perceive yourself.
So I would encourage anybody todo that and then also do it
again, because you're yourleadership styles.
Your communication styles change, which in some cases they
should right, becausecommunication is a practice.
Leadership is a practice.
(22:09):
I think there's some naturalborn leaders, people that lead
in that authoritative style.
That's what we call leaders,but every bit of leadership can
be learned, and communication isthe same way, where
communication is something,those styles you develop in your
learn, and that's what you weretalking about.
Now let's I do want to talk alittle more about leading from
the back, because I think thatone I don't often think much
(22:33):
about that side of it, leadingfrom the back- Well, leading
from the back is kind of theultimate in trying to empower
everybody else, and so it couldbe good or bad.
Rich Hopkins (22:48):
It's bad if you are leading from the back
because you don't want to leadin any other way.
You want to put all the riskand all the potential blame on
everybody else.
But if you're doing it from amotive of empowering people,
encouraging them, giving themopportunity not only to succeed
(23:09):
but to fail not so they can failand be discarded, but fail and
learn from that failure so theycan then succeed again the next
time they try it then leadingfrom behind is a good thing, you
know.
But you know, if you reallywant to get into, like military
style, generals typically aren'tgoing to lead their troops from
(23:31):
the front because they'reconsidered too valuable.
You have ranks that aren'tgoing to lead from the front.
Now, most of us are not living amilitary life, and so that's we
don't have to deal withleadership in quite that way or
with those consequences.
You know we aren't leading lifeand death missions.
(23:54):
We are trying to lead a salesteam or a construction team, and
that just means empoweringpeople and giving them the
opportunity to learn and havingthe right motives, no matter
what you're doing, whetheryou're leading from the back,
middle or front your motivationis usually key in whether or not
(24:16):
you're doing it well and to thebenefit of the people you're
leading.
The Uncommon Communicator (24:22):
Yeah , that's a great point and you
know, with that from the back,leading from the back one thing
that kind of pops in my mind isalso leading upward, and I think
they're a little bit different.
That's why I like your, yourtake on that and really take
leading from the back.
But there is something likesometimes you're not in charge
and that other person needs tobe in charge because it's their
(24:45):
role.
You know, it's their title,their responsibilities, but you
want to help guide that as welltoo.
So I think there's a little bitof leading upward that also
comes from the middle and fromthe back as well, because you,
you want to be able to hopefullyhave a good enough relationship
with the other leader to guidethem and coach them and be open
(25:05):
enough to steer possibly steerthe direction and to save a
direction, especially if they'renot a strong leader.
You have to be able to leadfrom, you know, from the middle,
in that regards, and I thinkthat's a skill set as well.
Have you experienced anyleading upward or leading?
Yeah, is that the right word?
Yeah, leading upward.
Rich Hopkins (25:25):
Leading upward?
I'm not completely clear onyour definition of leading
upward, to know if I'veexperienced or not.
The Uncommon Communicator (25:34):
So let's yeah, let me, let me try
it this way.
So it's the idea is you've gota leader, you're you're the
second in command, and thatleader Need some guidance on
some things.
So what you do in that secondin command is you're kind of
feeding them information, reallymaking them look good in some
ways, but also supporting them,but not necessarily leading.
(25:57):
But at the end of the day, ifyou know you were to look back
and assess yourself, you canthink, man, I mean, I made and
supported those decisions thatthat leader made, right.
Rich Hopkins (26:07):
Yeah, career-wise I've not really ever been in
that position.
In the leadership positionsI've been in, especially say,
the last 10 years, because I'vebeen in Toss Masters for 24
years, so the last 10 years I'vekind of been considered an
expert, the alumni, the guy thatyou go to when you have a
(26:30):
question.
So, even if I'm not in aleadership position in a club,
I'm in a leadership position andthat's.
That's where I'm kind of thethe first mate, the number one
in Star Trek terms, the firstofficer, however you want to put
it.
But ultimately, if you'rerelying on a first officer, you
(26:53):
are Learning not to lead fromthe back.
You are literally learningleading from the middle, you are
moving closer towards themiddle leadership position Then
if you were totally leading fromthe back, because then you're
not taking advice from anybody,you're telling other people what
to go do, but that's talking inextremes.
(27:16):
You know you've got the wayback, you've got the back that's
closer to the middle.
Oh, I guess I'm doing this inreverse, to do it like this in
the way back, and you're gettingcloser to the middle, no, and
then then suddenly you'releading from the front, way too
far in the front.
So the more you can be in themiddle, the better off you're
(27:36):
going to be this.
Does that answer question?
Yeah, that does, and it's it,my story.
The Uncommon Communicator (27:44):
It doesn't necessarily come from me
, but I used to have a Scenario.
I won't actually drop names inthis case, but I called it his
puppet regime, because you know,he was my boss but it seemed
like he had a ton of influence,and that's the word where I'm
gonna go with over the otherperson making decisions.
So if I needed something I'dmention it to him and and then,
before you knew it, it wouldhappen.
So it was kind of his.
(28:05):
His puppet regime is what Icalled it in regards to
influence, and I think that'ssomething when we talk about
leadership and that's kind of, Ithink, where I was going with
that.
And as far as from leading fromyou know, from you know, a
position, a lower position, isthat we have, at times, more
influence than we have,leadership role, and I think
(28:28):
that's what you're talking aboutas well too.
You know, when rich Hopkinswalks in a room, it's different
than when just all James Gablewalks in a room.
You know you have a little bitmore influence when you go in
there because of your experience, because of your reputation,
because of all of the input thatyou've put in, you know, to
those, those groups and reallyin the world of speaking, you
have a different level ofinfluence.
(28:49):
So a lot of.
Rich Hopkins (28:50):
I've never been a top three officer, though, like
you are, you're a big wig.
The Uncommon Communicator (28:55):
Yeah , well, let's come on, let's
come join us, man, come on in.
But that's something that Ithink is People need to take
into account in the idea as aleadership as well, too, in that
you can have influence, andthat influence is just as
important in any level ofleadership.
You know what?
What do they call a leader thatdoesn't have any followers?
(29:17):
It's just a guy out on a walkyou go, so you got to have some,
some followers to be a leader,and that doesn't necessarily
meet in the paid Category aswell either.
Well, what else do we want totalk about in regards to
communication from a leader specperspective?
Rich Hopkins (29:39):
well, there's.
There's a definition ofleadership, a not.
It's more of a Level ofleadership that I always talk
about on my key notes.
It isn't one of those mainthree and it's the the invisible
leader, kind of the the unawareleader.
When I was going through theworld championship Effort back
(30:04):
in 2006 and 2008 and failing, Imean, I took third in 2006,
which is great, but at the sametime, it just means you're the
second loser and then you're thesecond loser.
The Uncommon Communicator (30:16):
To how many applicants right?
Rich Hopkins (30:20):
But I hear what you're saying 2008 I did not
place at all.
So you know, when you don'tplace you just say you were tied
for fourth, and you know thatworks out too.
But in 2008 they made adocumentary called speak about
the world championship.
I think you've seen that and ifyou if you haven't, I've got a
(30:42):
DVD in my basement I can giveyou.
The Uncommon Communicator (30:44):
I was actually looking for it this
morning because it is on Amazon, believe it is not for like 399
or 299, 299, yeah, uh, anyway.
Rich Hopkins (30:55):
So there's this movie that Shows me that year
and you know, I'm prettyconfident because I'd gone in
2006, and I'm all excitedbecause I think they're making a
documentary about me going towin the world championship.
Well, it turns out, of course,that I did not win the world
championship, and so it justshows me struggling through the
(31:16):
summer as I was practicing, as Iwas getting a new leg you know
I was, I had, I went through anamputation in 2006 and was
getting another mechanical legin 2008 in preparation for that
particular world championship,so that I could have a better
walk on stage.
(31:36):
And then it, of course, coversthe contest itself and at the
End of that contest, as they'reannouncing the winners, you have
Me and the winner in the splitscreen as they're announcing and
you know I'm all happy becauseI haven't heard my name for
third or second.
Nobody wants to be called forthird or second.
(31:58):
But then, of course, the otherperson wins and you see her
jumping up and down and allexcited, and you see me going,
and I'm really glad that I don'thave a microphone on at that
moment in time, but if you're agood liberator.
You kind of know what's goingon at that moment in time.
And then they follow me home onthe plane and they follow me
(32:24):
home in a car and they interviewme and I change clothes so it
looks like it may be another day, but it's really right.
After I've shown up on the plane, I'm exhausted, I'm depressed.
They're trying to do aninterview with me about how I'm
feeling.
Well, I feel like crap, thankyou very much.
And my wife's next to me andthey're asking her and she's
(32:48):
like oh, things are going to beOK, right, honey, things are
going to be OK, right.
I'm just like I don't know it's.
I'm exhausted, it's hilarious,it's really it's hilarious in
the midst of it.
And you know that that story isa big part of learning how to
win anyway.
At that point, just three yearsbefore, I really came up with
(33:11):
Condensing all the differentthings that has happened in my
life into that moment, into thatwin anyway concept.
But I say that, say this 2014.
I win district here in Denverfor District 26.
Which you're helping to lead,and that year it goes to
(33:34):
Malaysia.
So I fly to Malaysia, I competein the semifinals when they
were still in person that wayand I don't place.
I go and watch the WorldChampionship and Dan and Jaya
Hederaji or how he pronouncedhis last name wins Just going
(33:55):
away.
Everybody knew we won thecontest Fantastic job.
I get on the plane, I come backfrom Malaysia and I do what
everybody does when they have anew World Champion they go on
Facebook and they friend the guyor, yeah, whoever it is,
because you want to get therebefore.
They have too many friends andthey can't friend you back.
So I friend Dan and Jaya.
(34:19):
Now here's the deal the nextmorning there is a post on my
Facebook wall from Dan and JayaSaying how Inspired he was by
watching me and speak, and nowhe was ready to quit the contest
after years of not making theWorld Championship.
(34:42):
But then he saw the movie andrealized that you didn't have to
give up.
You just keep trying, you justkeep going forward.
And I've still got the message.
When I'm giving a keynote, I'llread the message that he left.
(35:03):
But basically, this guy I'venever met until until that day
when I happened to catch him inpassing really quick after one
shook his hand, was inspired byme, who wasn't trying to inspire
anybody.
See, people are watching youand you don't know who it is.
(35:24):
There are kids watching you.
There are people you work withwatching you.
People you go to churchwatching you.
People you go to Toastmasterswith their Kiwanis or Rotary,
whatever it is you do, there arepeople watching you and you
will never know that they'rewatching you and you are leading
them Without knowing it.
(35:46):
And now you have to askyourself are you living a life
worth Watching?
The Uncommon Communicator (35:58):
I'm gonna let that, I'm gonna let
that pause.
Sit there for a minute.
Man, that is that.
What a fantastic story, rich,and that I've never heard it
spelled out so clearly about theinfluence that we have that we
don't know.
And that's why I think I lovenot I think I know, I love the
win anyway idea, because whenyou take what In some would
(36:20):
picture as a loss, even foryourself and I'm talking about
having to tell these things youknow to yourself Because that
was told to you by thisgentleman, a story you didn't
even know that you hadinfluenced him, the winner that
year of that was inspired by youas you kind of told that story
through that documentary, andthat's just such an incredible
(36:42):
thing where we do, we influenceand we impact and we motivate
and that's a great challenge is,you know, are you living a life
worth repeating?
You know those are just greatwords in regards to leadership
and the communication.
So I really appreciate yousharing that story.
That was that is inspiring forme and I think it's also the
(37:02):
thing that we tend To touch on alot within the uncommon
communicator is vulnerabilityand then being authentic.
You know, those are things thatwhen you really Can talk
through the things that you'vemessed up.
My last guest, jesse Hernandez,big, big time into
vulnerability.
I'm just barely encroaching onit because I have so many
feelings I haven't even foundyet.
(37:23):
I'm finding more of them and Idon't know if I'm liking it, but
I'm growing by it, and what youjust shared is such a
vulnerable moment of of growththat influences others, and the
whole key is this You're notalone, right, and that's the
biggest thing, and sometimes youhave to tell yourself that as
well.
So what an inspiring story.
(37:43):
Well, rich, it's been a pleasurehaving you on the show, having
you on the program.
It's been a pleasure knowingyou and working with you.
You're on the education teamfor the district you are
definitely supporting.
I've been a huge supporter ofToastmasters and for speakers
everywhere.
How would you sum up today's UCmoment?
That's the uncommoncommunicator moment.
What's the one thing thatpeople should walk away with
(38:05):
from today's conversation?
Rich Hopkins (38:08):
If you're in a leadership position, you need to
realize that listening is justas important as communicating
outward, because communicationis two ways.
You have to hear what they'resaying so that you can
understand how they need to becommunicated to, because there's
(38:30):
always the way.
There's always what you thinkyou're saying versus what
they're hearing you say, andunless you listen to them long
enough to understand how theycommunicate, you won't know how
to communicate.
Communicate properly with them.
That means creatingconversation.
What is talking?
Talking combined with listening, it's conversation.
(38:53):
So converse making conversationis part of your leadership
style.
It's essential and it's far toorare, I think, in a lot of
today's society.
The Uncommon Communi (39:08):
Completely agree.
Today's UC moment, leadershipis listening and communicating,
brought to you by Rich Hopkins.
Thanks everybody, that's allwe've got.
See you guys.
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