๐ฅ Leaders & CEOs โ are you unknowingly stuck in the Comfort Trap?
Itโs the silent killer of influence, innovation, and impact โ and most high-achievers donโt even see it coming.
In this episode of ๐๐ก๐ ๐๐ง๐๐จ๐ฆ๐ฆ๐จ๐ง ๐๐๐๐๐๐ซ ๐๐จ๐๐๐๐ฌ๐ญ, I sit down with former U.S. Marine Corps officer, leadership coach, and author ๐๐ข๐ฅ๐ฅ ๐๐๐ก๐ฎ๐ฅ๐ฆ๐๐ง to reveal how to break free from the habits holding you back and build the bravery muscle every leader needs.
๐ก Inside, youโll discover: https://youtu.be/m5uvbQ4ksVs
โ How to spot the difference between healthy fear & self-imposed limits
โ Why โpushing the easy buttonโ weakens your leadership over time
โ The simple, science-backed shift โ the Power of YET โ that rewires your mindset
โ Why discomfort is the REAL catalyst for growth, influence, and results
โ How to surround yourself with a BRAVE TRIBE that fuels your courage daily
This isnโt just motivation โ itโs a battle-tested blueprint for fearless leadership, grounded in psychology, real-world grit, and executive coaching strategies you can apply today. https://youtu.be/m5uvbQ4ksVs
๐ฏ ๐๐จ๐ง๐ง๐๐๐ญ ๐ฐ๐ข๐ญ๐ก ๐๐ข๐ฅ๐ฅ ๐๐๐ก๐ฎ๐ฅ๐ฆ๐๐ง:
๐ LinkedIn โ https://www.linkedin.com/in/jillaschulman/?original_referer=
๐ Website & Free Bravery Assessment โ https://www.jillschulman.com/
๐ ๐๐๐ฏ๐๐ฅ ๐ฎ๐ฉ ๐ฒ๐จ๐ฎ๐ซ ๐ฅ๐๐๐๐๐ซ๐ฌ๐ก๐ข๐ฉ ๐ฐ๐ข๐ญ๐ก ๐๐จ๐ก๐ง ๐๐๐ฅ๐ฅ๐๐ ๐ก๐๐ซ:
๐ฏ ๐ ๐ซ๐๐ ๐:๐ ๐๐ญ๐ซ๐๐ญ๐๐ ๐ฒ ๐๐๐ฅ๐ฅ โ https://coachjohngallagher.com/freecall
๐ More Resources โ https://linktr.ee/coachjohngallagher
๐ Visit โ https://youtu.be/m5uvbQ4ksVs
#Leadership #ExecutiveCoaching #GrowthMindset #WarriorMindset #LeadershipDevelopment #CEOLeadership #LeadershipCoach #MindsetMatters #ComfortTrap #LevelUpLeadership #TheUncommonLeaderPodcast #CoachJohnGallagher #JillSchulman "
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Do we choose to keep moving forward or even in change
?
Because so many of my clientsare facing change and
uncertainty and we have a choiceDo we just sit there, dump out
it and just not do anything, ordo we move toward it?
Like you know, we always haveto be moving.
What I really care about andwhy I'm so passionate the people
who are struggling and don'tfeel like they're brave, like
I'm here to help them, becauseyou can, little by little,
(00:22):
little, learn to be brave andwhen you get through that
journey, there is nothing thatfeels better as you build your
self-confidence.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
Hey, Uncommon Leaders , welcome back.
This is the Uncommon Leaderpodcast.
I'm your host, John Gallagher,and have I got a fantastic,
inspirational guest for youtoday?
The conversation we're about tohave is for those individuals
who are feeling stuck in thework that they're in right now,
maybe in a relationship thatthey have or, ultimately, in
their own life.
Realizing that their potentialthey know they can reach is just
(01:02):
not happening for them, and weneed a way to make that happen.
Our guest today is a former USMarine Corps officer, a positive
psychology expert and thefounder of the Breakthrough
Leadership Group, and now we'regoing to put author beside her
name the author of the BraveryEffect.
In this book, she makes apowerful case that true growth
and success comes from embracingdiscomfort and that bravery is
(01:25):
a skill and a muscle that we canactually build.
So I can't wait to have aconversation about that.
Jill Shulman, welcome to theUncommon Leader Podcast.
How are you doing today?
Speaker 1 (01:34):
I am fantastic and so excited to chat with you.
Speaker 2 (01:38):
Well, this is going to be great and I'm going to
jump right in.
No reason to wait.
Your book.
The core message is thatbravery isn't really the absence
of fear, but it's forwardmotion in spite of that fear.
So how do individuals kind ofrecognize in terms of what a
healthy fear is, that they don'thave to do anything about, or
something that's just holdingthem back and it's in their own
(01:59):
mind?
Speaker 1 (02:00):
Yeah, I mean just in general.
Yeah, bravery is taking actionin the presence of fear toward a
worthwhile goal.
So if we look at the definition, you know, sometimes fear is a
very, very good sign thatthere's danger and we should
move away.
You know, fear is what kept usalive and Daniel Kahneman's work
(02:24):
you know, Nobel Prize winningpsychologist found that we're
actually twice as motivated toavoid things that are riskier
that we fear.
You're just a human being,You're normal, right, but we
(02:51):
have to learn to differentiatebetween the fears we should
listen to, which is like theedge of a cliff, a black bear or
a saber-toothed tiger, physicaldanger, versus the dangers that
we normally face today, whichis social danger, which is
usually the fear of failure, thefear of rejection.
(03:11):
But our brain, our nervoussystem, doesn't know the
difference, so we just react thesame way.
So I guess, to answer yourquestion, we've got to know when
we feel fear.
We've got to decide is thissomething dangerous where it's
not a worthwhile goal, it'sactually something I should run
away from?
Or am I just nervous because ofthe social fear, but it's
(03:34):
standing in between me and thething that I really want?
So what's that worthwhile goal?
What is the thing that youreally want, and if there's fear
holding you back from gettingto that, then when you feel that
fear, I want you to look atthat as a sign that there's
something important.
You need to move toward it.
So don't run away.
Move toward that type of fear.
Speaker 2 (03:57):
I love that, like you said, you can distinguish the
difference.
When somebody says to jump outof an airplane without a
parachute, you can definitelytell that type of fear is not
really logical to use.
But in the space of change,especially in the workplace that
we work in today as leaders,some of those fears that hold us
back are our own, made up stuffthat really exists Now inside.
(04:17):
What I kind of talk about withregards to change is that, you
know, people ultimately changewhen the displeasure of
remaining where they are todayis greater than the pain of the
change itself, and they'll makea change once they understand
that they're stuck.
The term that you use insidethe book, which I think is
really cool, is the comfort trap, and so when you think about
that term, the comfort trap ifyou would define that for me
(04:40):
just a little bit and then giveme one or two you know things
that you identify as a coach andas an expert in that space that
people are in a comfort trapversus something that's really a
fear.
Speaker 1 (04:51):
Yeah.
So just let's just let's talkabout what a comfort trap is.
You've been reading the book soyou understand.
But for your audience?
So the comfort trap is when, inthe moments we have to decide to
do the right thing that'suncomfortable, or to do the easy
thing that is comfortable.
You know, when we choosecomfort, it makes it harder for
(05:13):
us next time to do theuncomfortable thing.
And I like to use the analogyof it's like building a muscle
right, if you don't work outyour body and your muscles
atrophy and then your body getsweaker over time.
So think of it the same way interms of our bravery, like, if
we continually don't go into thebravery gym, the mental gym of
(05:34):
doing the hard thing, we'regoing to become weaker and less
resilient.
So the comfort trap means whenyou push the easy button, it
makes it that much harder to beable to do the challenging thing
.
You know, and and when we buildthe muscle of bravery, and, and
we can it is like building amuscle.
Like, literally, our brain canrewire.
We have brain plasticity thatwill change the way our brain um
(05:58):
, the composition of our brain,with an increasing prefrontal
cortex also the rewiring of ourbrain from different parts of
our brain, you parts of ourbrain.
So when we take a little stepforward towards something we
fear, then our confidenceincreases a little bit and our
brain says whoa, whoa, whoa,whoa.
What are we doing here?
That was kind of hard.
And so your brain, your body,is saying I need to be ready for
that next time.
(06:18):
So the more you take stepstoward things that you fear in
the pursuit of those worthwhilegoals, you build that bravery
muscle.
But every time we choose theeasy button, we fall more into
the comfort trap and then we'relike then we feel like see, I'm
not able to.
So it becomes a vicious cycleand I think a lot of people are
stuck that way.
(06:38):
And some tangible examples justI see in the workplace.
It's not a lack of talent, it'snot a lack of capability, but
fear just completely controlsindividuals.
Let's use the example of justspeaking up, like speaking up
with an idea, or leaders, likehaving difficult conversations
(07:01):
about performance or givingconstructive feedback.
You know, some leaders justavoid it because it's just
uncomfortable for them, right?
And then the more they avoid it, then the harder it gets, you
know.
So that's just one littleexample, but I think many of us
are stuck in the comfort trap,and we've been there so long,
it's so hard for us to break out.
Speaker 2 (07:22):
It really is, and you touched on this a little bit as
well in terms of again, some ofthe things that I've read about
your organization is that it'shelping those individuals just
become aware of it because theyget in it for so long it becomes
easier to just hang out thereand that complacency or that
good enough feeling resides.
And that's not who we werecreated to be.
(07:43):
It just isn't.
We weren't created to be goodenough, we were created to be
and do so much more.
You have a Marine background.
I'm sure that's informed someof the book in terms of and your
teaching methodology as well.
Give me an example or a storyfrom the Marines that still
informs who you are today, as aperson or as a leader.
Speaker 1 (08:02):
Oh boy, we've got so many you know.
So I would say, hey, when Ifirst decided to try and to earn
the title of United StatesMarine, I went the college route
first.
So I had a full scholarship onthe Marine Corps.
So that means I go to collegefor four years and then I'm
commissioned to become anofficer and I thought I knew
(08:23):
what I was getting into but Iapplied on my own.
My parents were not even reallyaware and all of a sudden I
said I have a full scholarshipin the Marine Corps, I'm leaving
Minnesota and I'm going to SanDiego.
They're like what?
And I was pretty confident atthe time.
I'm like I earned thescholarship, I had the academics
, I had the leadership, I hadwhat I thought was the fitness.
(08:45):
And then I arrived in San Diegoand I was in for a rude
awakening.
In fact, my first day Ireported in.
So when you go to college, mostkids report in, not report in.
I'm using military terms go tothe orientation where all the
students kind of hang out.
But if you're in ROTC, you gotto go another week early for the
(09:08):
orientation of Naval ReserveOfficer Training Corps, rotc.
But it's like a mini boot camp.
And, by the way, when youreport in, there's tons of
people there.
A majority of the midshipmen wecall them are going into the
Navy.
They're peeling left and if youare the Marine Corps option,
you go to the right.
I'm looking at, everyone go tothe left and there's only a
(09:29):
couple going to the right.
And then I go to the right andno one looks like me.
And then let me just tell youwhat I was wearing.
I'm so embarrassed to admitthat I put a lot of thought into
my outfit.
I mean I'm kind of girly.
I mean that's kind of theinteresting thing.
I had a very successful careerin the Marine Corps but I'm like
I don't want to wear a dressthat's too girly.
But I don't want to wear jeans,because I read that jeans
(09:51):
officers can't wear jeans.
So I was wearing some some likeknee length silk shorts that
were hot pink and littlematching heels, like I mean,
what was I thinking?
But I thought I looked veryprofessional.
So I don't know if you have ascene in your mind of like I'm a
stunt double to legally blonde.
Speaker 2 (10:09):
So I went there.
I'm sorry, I went there, reeseWitherspoon, that's exactly
where I went.
I mean, yeah, go ahead, goahead.
Speaker 1 (10:23):
So I mean, so I mean they were just, I think,
salivating, going like we'regoing to get here.
And on my first day I had oneof the upperclassmen who was
about to be commissioned and hecame up to me and he whispered
like you'll never make it as a.
Marine.
So that was my.
That was the first time where Iam faced with a choice and this
is really important for youraudience Like there's big
(10:43):
choices and there's littlechoices.
So on that first day I'mreporting in, this was my ticket
to get my college degree paidfor.
This was my ticket to start acareer that had meaning, and I
encountered some adversity.
I could have chosen to quit andgo back home to my family and
friends in Minnesota, but inlife we have choices of go the
(11:06):
hard path or take the easy pathright, and in that moment I was
there to stay and so I chose,like I'm going to keep going.
And it didn't get better.
The second day got worsebecause I thought I was in shape
.
But do you know the hills thatthey have in Southern California
?
I was in shape, but do you knowthe hills that they have in
Southern California?
There's a place called TecaloteCanyon near University of San
(11:28):
Diego.
It is a torture chamber becauseit's just hills.
And on day two we went outrunning.
You know, in our Marine Corpsyou know physical training gear,
pt gear, and I couldn't keep up.
Most of the people in my unitwere actually prior enlisted
Marines that earned an abilityto go to college for four years.
(11:50):
So there's some of us thatfresh out of high school, but a
lot of them were existingMarines, and so I wasn't keeping
up and it was hard, because itis not cool, it is very shameful
if you can't keep up physically.
You know so, and I struggledwith that for the whole first
year.
But each day I had to make achoice, knowing do I keep doing
(12:14):
the hard thing, faith that withtime I can grow the skill, or do
I just say this is too hard,I'm going to give up?
And I think this we have aparallel in the business world.
Like we have really challenginggoals, or we're we challenging
goals or we've got someadversity that we're facing.
There's huge changes there.
Do we choose to keep movingforward, or even in change,
because so many of my clientsare facing change and
(12:35):
uncertainty and we have a choiceDo we just sit there
dumbfounded and just not doanything, or do we move toward
it?
Like you know, we always haveto be moving.
So I kept showing up and there'sa happy ending to this story.
I kept at it, I kept at it andthen, between my junior and
senior of college, you have togo to officer candidate school,
(12:56):
which is kind of like boot campfor officers.
If you can't get throughofficer candidate school you're
not going to be able to be anofficer.
So I went there and aftertraining for years and I got
really strong and so when I cameback from officer candidate
school they measure you onphysical fitness, your
leadership ability, yourmarksmanship, like everything,
(13:16):
and I had the highest rankingout of any one of the Marines
from my school.
The prior enlisted the otherstudents as a female, like I
outranked all of them and sothen my unit recognized that and
they made me the midshipmanbattalion commander, which means
I was in charge of all thestudents.
So it's kind of that comebackstory and the reason why it's so
(13:36):
meaningful is probably becauseI had so much adversity, because
it was so hard in the beginning, and I think that's what I
really care about and why I'm sopassionate the people who are
struggling and don't feel likethey're brave, like I'm here to
help them, because you canlittle by little learn to be
brave and when you get throughthat journey there is nothing
(13:59):
that feels better as you buildyour self-confidence.
So I know that's the story thatcomes to mind that relates to
bravery, yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:06):
I love that story.
I love that story as it relatesto bravery and as it relates to
who you are today and I umgentlemen Roy Vaden, ceo of
Brand Builders Group.
He would say we are mostpowerfully positioned to help
the person that we once were.
I would imagine you can usethat story of bravery, uh, in
experiences with your clients,and I'll ask this without
(14:27):
revealing any names do you haveany favorite client story where
you've helped them to go throughsomething like that and do
something hard and come out onthe other side very successful?
Speaker 1 (14:38):
Absolutely.
You know, as I bring my work,the research on bravery, to
programs, to companies, it'susually the little moments of
someone who comes up to me andtells me their story of you know
, I was scared of doing this butI was brave and I did the hard
thing and as a result, I got thepromotion.
(14:58):
So there's countless, countlessstories.
But as I go in and I teach itto a large group where I do a
keynote, and I get peoplereaching out to me saying like
what you said mattered.
And the one thing I take pridein is and I don't mean to take
away from some of my fellowkeynote speakers, but a lot of
keynote speakers tell theirinspirational story and say,
look at what I've done, like, belike me and just toughen it out
(15:22):
.
But what I teach areevidence-based, evidence-based
tactics I always use militaryterms tactics or or actions you
can take that we know that willbuild your bravery over time and
I think we have aresponsibility to do that.
I know that if people takeaction in the way that I teach
(15:44):
them, I have no doubt thatthey're going to be able to get
through the fear and I have allthe psychology to back it up.
So I have like I'm like thetough girl Marine, but I back it
up.
I studied psychology andeverything that I teach my, my
audiences, my clients, is basedon cognitive psychology.
We have to first win the battlein our mind I call it the
(16:04):
warrior mindset and then we needto, you know, but then we have
to take brave action.
Sometimes people like do a lotof things on mindset but then
they don't take a step, like thewhole mindset is to support
your action.
So I love doing work on mindset, but I'm like we're not going
to spend all the time doingmindset stuff, like you need to
(16:25):
take a step even if you'rescared.
And so we talk about thepsychology and this is
behavioral psychology, right.
And then those are the twothings that are more internal
that we're working on.
And then I always tell peoplelike there's some good news.
Do you want me to make iteasier?
And they're like, oh, my gosh,yes, please.
And then we talk about socialpsychology, on how, if you
(16:45):
surround yourself with peoplewho will not just say, oh, it's
okay, just give up, it's fine,you know, be easy on yourself.
No, surround yourself withpeople that are going to say, no
, keep going, get up and tryagain.
You can do this.
So surround yourself withpeople who are going to
challenge you, encourage you,put courage into you, you know,
and that will make it easier.
It's the theory where you end upconforming to the norms of the
(17:10):
people that you surroundyourself with, you know, and
people say you are who you hangout with.
Well, there's psychology thatbacks it up.
So make sure that you'reregularly hanging out with, or
having conversations with,people who have done the hard
thing that you're going to do orseeking to do.
So they can be the ones thatsay hey, when I was in your
shoes, I struggled too, but youcan do it, and it makes you feel
like, oh, wow, okay, I'll keepgoing.
(17:31):
So we work on mindset andactions, kind of in the
individual, and then we teach inthe social psychology that can
make it easier for them to bebrave, create the environment
that makes it easier for them totake that step forward.
Speaker 2 (17:47):
Love that those three steps are spot on in terms of
what I wanted.
To even go further, askingquestion developing that warrior
mindset, taking bold action andcurating those courageous
connections is something that'skind of something that you've
chatted about.
What's a daily practice aleader might take to, in essence
, develop that warrior mindset?
Speaker 1 (18:07):
that you talk about.
Yeah, so one that is very, verysimple, super simple, but very
powerful, is just using growthmindset by Carol Dweck, which I
teach it.
I like to make things simple,like in the Marine Corps, we'd
always say kiss it, keep itsimple, sir.
Right?
So there's all this evidenceand fancy stuff, but you just
(18:29):
can boil it down to one word.
That's three letters and it'syet.
So when you are encounteringchallenges in your work and
something bad happens and you'relike, oh my gosh, like the
world is falling apart, likewe're never going to be able to,
you know, overcome thischallenge, you can just use the
word yet, like we don't have theanswers right now to solve a
(18:51):
challenge, or we don't have theanswers yet, we haven't figured
out how to overcome the obstacleyet.
So when you say yet, it createsthis little shift in our mind
of saying it is possible andthink of, like warriors, what do
you think Navy SEALs andMarines do?
They're like, oh gosh, theenemy's in the way, oh well,
we're just going to quit.
No, we're like we haven'tfigured out how we're going to
(19:12):
overcome it yet.
And then we need to startthinking about and the reason
why this is so important is ifyou have a pessimistic point of
view saying everything is wrongand it's not going to get any
better, then that impacts youractions, then you're not going
to even try.
So the power of yet opens up alittle bit of optimism.
(19:34):
Marty Seligman, the father ofpositive psychology.
He's done so much research onoptimism and the reason why it's
so important is if you see thelittle sliver of possibility, it
means that there's a chance.
I'm optimistic that it'spossible for me to overcome the
challenge.
And if it's possible, then whatdoes it do to your actions?
Then you start thinking, youstart brainstorming, you think
(19:56):
about how you can do it.
So that's one practical thingis just always use that.
Yet it's really easy to just bein a pity party, right, and just
go like there's nothing we cando, like let's just complain
about it, like all right, let'sshift and say let's use the
power of yet and start thinkingabout how we could overcome it.
Right, and you know one thing,if I can say an additional thing
(20:18):
on positive psychology, I thinkwhen people learn that I've
studied positive psychology,like I, get some people like
rolling their eyes oh, positivethinking right you know, and I'm
like I am not woo woo, I am nothappy clappy like at all.
This is about being realistic.
Like this sucks.
This is a huge setback.
Let's be realistic.
(20:39):
But believing a warrior mindsetis believing that we can
overcome this.
We just got to figure out how.
We don't have the answers yet,but we can figure this out and
that's where that little glimmerof optimism allows everyone to
start moving toward it andthat's, I mean, those are the
best moments.
When you think back at storiesand companies, you're like
remember that time when we hadthis, oh my gosh, and all the
(21:02):
stuff that we had to do, when weovercame it.
Like those are the best oftimes, right.
Speaker 2 (21:06):
Hey, uncommon Leaders , hope you're enjoying the
episode.
So far, I believe in doingbusiness with people you like
and trust, and not just acompany name.
That's why a strong personalbrand is essential, whether
you're an entrepreneur or aleader within a company.
Brand Builders Group, the folkswho have been helping me refine
my own personal brand areoffering a free consultation
call with one of their expertbrand strategists.
They'll help you identify youruniqueness, craft a compelling
(21:27):
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So head on over tocoachjohngallaghercom slash BBG,
as in brand builders group, toschedule your free call and take
the first step toward buildinga personal brand that gets you
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That's coachjohngallaghercomslash BBG.
Now let's get back to theepisode.
I love that it becomes theconnector, that yet becomes the
(21:49):
connector between that mindsetand that bold action that you
need to take.
I love kind of the picture ofthat, because you talked about
that, the power of yet.
It allows you to think aboutwhat other solutions might be
there.
And then again your third stepultimately those connections is
having those people around youthat can help lift those ideas
(22:09):
that you have to make it happenas well, so powerful.
I'll share this really quick,just because it's so recent for
me.
It was just a few days ago thatmyself and three other guys
chose the decision of doingsomething hard and doing our
second Spartan race.
We did our first one fourmonths ago, but to wait until we
were me, 56 years old and theother guys kind of in their
(22:31):
early 50s as well to dosomething hard like that for the
first time has the power of yet.
We had been training, we werefocused on being positive, but
we really needed to take somebold action to really get us
there.
Now, whether a Spartan race isbold compared to going in the
Marines as an officer in ROTCand we'll talk about that a
little bit more at the end justin terms of movies.
For us it was our way ofchoosing something hard and we
(22:54):
had that mindset going in.
That was really important.
Leaders, you've got to stay onthat positive side and to your
point, we're not talking aboutfoo foo positive that you know I
can do whatever I want to do.
Speaker 1 (23:10):
That's not what that means inside of that space.
I really liked that.
Yeah, you know, um just made methink.
By the way, I just signed upfor my first Spartan in November
.
Speaker 2 (23:17):
It's a stadium, so are you going to Boston and
doing that 5k and you're goingto be a speaker as well, cause I
know Nick.
He invited me to that thing.
My problem with November 8th isNovember 15th is the.
Is the half marathon Spartanthat we're running in South
Carolina.
I'm like do I want to run astadium and do I look first?
Speaker 1 (23:37):
of all, be careful.
You know what, John?
It would be a good workout, thestadiums are.
That's what it is, that's thenew finisher.
Speaker 2 (23:42):
That's what I'm trying to tell myself.
Positive mindset.
More your mindset, absolutely.
First of all, be careful withSpartans.
It has nothing to do withanything physical.
It has to do with the community.
That is an unbelievablecommunity of one of the things I
didn't expect.
That connection that you talkabout in terms of a group of
thousands of people that arethere really for the same reason
(24:03):
yeah, they want to win and geton the pedestal, but the
majority of those individualsare there just to do something
hard and say they did it andaccomplish it.
I'm like man.
I never would have thought I'dbe able to do that.
That's what I make up aboutthat crowd anyway.
Speaker 1 (24:16):
And then I'm hearing the way you speak.
You're like I never thought Icould do that, but I did.
I'm Spartan.
Speaker 2 (24:25):
It makes you feel unstoppable, and did it suck?
Speaker 1 (24:27):
Oh gosh, the hardest thing I've ever done physically,
no doubt about it, exactly, andso in the Marine Corps and in
the Navy SEALs we have thislittle saying and we say embrace
the suck right.
And this is what.
I mean Sometimes and it's sofunny because it was just the
saying that we used to say andit was a silly saying, and I'm
like they're just trying to makeour misery like better, like
(24:48):
this is just trying to trick us.
But now that I've studiedpsychology, I'm like how we
react to it.
Speaker 2 (24:52):
So this is the work of Aaliyah Crum, kelly McGonigal
.
Speaker 1 (25:04):
They've done research on mindset, on stress.
If you think stress andchallenges are horrible and
they're going to ruin your lifeand you're going to die because
you're experiencing stress andall that, you will have a
negative response to stressphysiologically and how you deal
with the obstacle.
But if you have a mindset onstress that is this is gonna
make me stronger.
(25:24):
These challenges are gonna grow.
My cognitive capacity If it'ssomething at work, a challenge,
my physical capacity if it's aSpartan race, if you're seeking
challenge and going like I wantit to be hard because this is
gonna make me stronger.
So that embrace the suck thatterm.
It is actually valid from apsychological point of view.
(25:45):
So I don't know if you'velooked at any of like Aaliyah
Crum or Kelly McGonigal's work.
She did like a TEDx talk too,but they literally did a study
in companies, because a lot ofpeople in your audience, you
know are in the workplace.
They literally went into acompany and they studied their
mindset on stress and thenrelated it to performance and
(26:06):
health outcomes and half thepeople they told stress is good
for you, stress makes youstronger, stress is your body's
way of preparing you forsomething that's important.
Stress is the thing that makeslife great, because it makes you
grow and develop and meet yourpotential.
So group number one was toldstress is good.
(26:26):
Group number two was toldstress is horrible.
You need to avoid challenges,you need to make it like the
complete opposite.
And so both I guess arms of thestudy were told a different
message in different rooms.
They thought they're hearingthe same thing.
And then they followed thesepeople and they put them in
stressful situations at work.
It was in a finance company andprobably no surprise.
But those individuals that weretaught that stress is good,
(26:50):
they perform better, they hadhigher work satisfaction and
they actually looked at somehealth outcomes.
They even had higher levels ofDHEA.
Speaker 2 (26:58):
Oh yeah, absolutely HRV, heart rate variability,
whatever method you want, I meanwhatever longevity and response
to stress, all of it.
Speaker 1 (27:07):
Just mindset on stress, just that little thing.
So that's why I say warriormindset.
I want people to reach theirpotential.
I want them to know you've gotto use the power of yet.
But I want you to realize thatwhen a challenge comes your way,
when you have that, you're at acrossroads and you have to
choose.
Am I going to face it Now, I'mgoing to turn left, which is
going to be challenging, or am Igoing to choose the easy path?
(27:31):
I also say to my audience areyou going to be brave?
Are you going to cower?
Because that's exactly what itis.
When you choose to be brave andmove forward like it is, when
you choose to be brave and moveforward like it is, it is these
are the best things in life, andso I'm so it all starts in
mindset.
So just when you, when I see achallenge now, I'm like bring it
.
I love challenges now and Ithink my brain is rewired Like
(27:53):
the harder the better.
I love challenges because Iknow what makes me stronger.
Speaker 2 (27:58):
You know I want to put a shameless plug in here.
You mentioned the race inboston on november 8th.
If you all want to get a chanceto see jill speak as well on
november 9th, nick hutchson, theceo of book thinkers he's
holding an event in boston.
You can go to bookthinkerscomand look that up for that event.
It's going to be a phenomenalevent to learn from speakers and
podcasters that are influencing, impacting and encouraging all
(28:20):
kinds of leaders to do thosehard things, just like you're
talking about Jill and have thatwarrior mindset.
So a little shameless plug inthere for Nick.
I'll copy him on the text onthis to let him know we talked
about it and I hope now you'vegot me to where I almost here's
that challenge again, thatwarrior mindset.
I got to be there November 8thand run in Fenway Park, which I
(28:41):
have some friends in Boston aswell that I'm trying to
encourage to be there that dayalso and run.
Speaker 1 (28:47):
John, you need to come with.
You got to be there.
Speaker 2 (28:50):
I think you just helped me make the decision,
jill.
I'm going to be there November8th.
I'll be there for the 5K,regardless of what my body tells
me, so we'll see how that goes.
Speaker 1 (28:58):
It's a good training run.
It's a great warm-up.
Speaker 2 (29:01):
I got you.
Yeah, it's nothing.
5k is nothing compared to 20,21K.
Yeah, we'll see.
Stay idiots.
I can't imagine what thisthing's going to be like.
Anyway, back to you.
Look some of my favoriteauthors Andy Andrews, patrick
Lencioni, robin Sharma.
They use fables to tell theirstory, to tell their leadership
tips.
Your book Bravery Effect isalso a fable.
(29:21):
It's a story that you'vewritten rather than choosing to
write a tacticalpaint-by-numbers book.
Tell me a little bit about whatyou led to write it as a story
and how that was for you inauthoring it.
Speaker 1 (29:34):
I knew 10 years ago that when I wrote a book, it
would be a parable, a fable, andwhat influenced me is Len
Sione's book.
Yes, but I discovered this bookbefore the, my first.
The first book that I read thatreally influenced me was the
new the one minute manager.
Speaker 2 (29:52):
Sure Spencer, john, yeah, I'm here.
Yeah, those guys, those threeguys, yeah.
Speaker 1 (29:56):
Yeah, so such a fantastic book.
In fact, when I go intocompanies and I do a lot of
leadership development work aswell I always recommend New
Leaders.
Everyone has to read that bookand it makes such an impact
because it takes lessons and itmakes them sticky right.
And then I love Lencioni's.
I love I mean there's so manyexamples.
(30:18):
I love John Gordon's books.
Absolutely John Gordon as well,no doubt so all these people
that have written these booksand they make a big impact and
they make the scientificinformation stick and, being
kind of a nerd at heart, Isometimes get a little too like
scientific and I'm like Ichallenge myself to make this
one a parable.
So that way I have a couple ofmotivations.
(30:41):
Number one is I want people toremember it so that it sticks.
Number two, I want people toread all the way to the end of
the book, and when it's a storyyou've got to get to the end.
How many business books do Ihave where I read I get maybe
halfway through, like maybe youknow if it's really good, but
sometimes I don't get throughthe whole thing, and so I wanted
to do that.
And then Ken Blanchard hasbecome a mentor of mine.
Speaker 2 (31:01):
He wrote the fourth book.
Speaker 1 (31:03):
He'll be at my little book launch party.
John Gordon is another mentorof mine and the link here
between the book that I wrote asa parable and then what's in
the book is I talk about thatbrave tribe.
You've got to curate thesecourageous connections like who
you hang out with.
So when I decided to write abook, I'm like I'm thinking like
(31:25):
I need to surround myself withpeople who have successfully
written and publishedbestselling books and I need to
be brave enough to approach them, because you're a little
intimidated by them, and thenbrave enough to be vulnerable
and say I have no idea what I'mdoing.
So I did that with Ken, I'vedone that with John, so I've got
these amazing people that havegiven me their guidance as
(31:48):
mentors.
So I think so many times in thebusiness world like we see a
leader that's two levels higherthan us and we're like well,
they don't want to help me, theydon't want to help me.
Like we just assume and we goto work and we pretend like we
have all the answers.
No, we just assume and we go towork and we pretend like we
have all the answers.
No, I'm fine, I don't needanything bullcrap yes, you do,
you need advice and mentors stop.
you know, this is where so many,a lot of macho men are like I'm
(32:10):
brave, I have no problem, I doall this, I'm like all right,
let's talk about your braverywhen it comes to relationships.
How are you at admittingmistakes and admitting when you
need help?
Oh, mr bravery, mr Bravery orMiss Bravery, so that's a big
part of you know.
My model too is you know you'vegot to be open to ask for
(32:30):
feedback, ask for help.
So part of bravery isapproaching the people that you
look up to that haveaccomplished what you want to
accomplish, and then reachingout and asking for help or
asking for suggestions, and youcan accomplish that goal so much
faster if you can be brave inthat vulnerable sense when it
comes to brave relationships.
Speaker 2 (32:51):
Jill.
I love that and, as I just kindof again listen through and
hear that, I hope that we canget your book in the hands of
all members of Congress and theexecutive branch of our
government as well, to reallylearn about admitting mistakes
and finding and asking for inputand things like that, because
it's a disease that our countryhas suffered from for a long
(33:12):
time, that they could use a gooddose of humility in asking for
a challenge.
There's no doubt about it.
When you think about those whohave now read the book, they've
gotten to the end, okay.
And they take your book and theyput it up on a bookshelf, like
the ones behind us, and theylook at it in a year.
Okay, here's the book test.
What do you want them to thinkwhen they see that book a year
(33:34):
from now?
Speaker 1 (33:37):
I want them to think about what do they really want?
But they're not moving forwardon and I want them to act
immediately.
So I want them to remember whatthey learned in the book run
toward what scares you in thebest possible way, like you have
fears that are so it's.
It's really the, the coremessage, which is what do I want
(33:57):
?
I'm scared of doing it.
Do not wait until you feelready.
Do not wait for the fear to goaway.
You just have to run toward it.
It is action, it's taking stepsforward that creates the
momentum.
So we all know that life thatwe want is not the life that we
have right now.
We have those goals in front ofus.
Stop waiting.
Stop waiting for the time to beright.
(34:18):
Just take brave action.
You know what Marines do?
We attack the hill, we justcharge forward.
I want you to charge forwardBecause the potential of that is
greater levels of success andwhat I'm most excited about in
my research and this is where Ido get a little woo-woo
(34:38):
everything that I teach helpspeople accomplish more, be more
successful, make more money, allthat kind of stuff.
But you know what I care aboutthat, but you know what I really
care about.
I care about overall happinessand well-being, because that is
what positive psychology is.
It's a scientific study ofelevating happiness and
well-being.
Brave and accomplish thesemeaningful things that you
(35:02):
really want in life.
You will get such an increase,a boost in your life
satisfaction, your happiness andyour well-being.
A lot of people confuse.
They think, oh, happiness isjust smiling every day.
No, like, there's so much moreto living a fulfilled life than
that.
Smiling.
Laughing every day is just onesmall portion.
So this and I think there'sconfusion on the world
especially I see the worldthrough my kids' eyes.
(35:24):
They think like, oh, happinessis just like everything being
handed to me and just and andbeing comfortable and smiling
all day.
That is not the recipe for agood life.
That is actually a shortcut foran unfulfilled life filled with
anxiety and depression.
That is what that is.
So you know.
So what I care about most isfor people applying what they
(35:44):
learned so that they can lookback at their life without
regret and lived an amazing life.
That's what I care about.
It's who people become on thejourney, when they become brave.
It is.
It's amazing when I hear frompeople who have heard me speak
or have put these things topractice and they're like I'm.
I'm a different person than Iwas before and I never knew I
(36:06):
could do this person and I'm andI look in the mirror with pride
now.
I can't believe I did that.
And you hear these stories andyou're like you had it in you
the whole time.
You were just letting fearcontrol you and you've learned
to conquer that fear.
It's, it's so exciting.
Speaker 2 (36:20):
Jill, I love that, love that man.
I've enjoyed our conversationand I know some of the things
you're saying.
Like I want to spill my ownstories of failure on you and
like, help me with this one kindof thing, as I lived through it
, and maybe when we're on theSpartan race course and we're
taking it easy so I can goforward, then, then uh, but
we're going to finish thatsucker, um.
I'll share some of thosestories with you in November in
Boston, of where I have some ofthose times I didn't charge
(36:43):
forward and some of those timesthat I did.
Um, when, as we're recordingthis, we're a couple of weeks
out from when your book islaunching, when we get it out
and make it live, folks arestill going to be able to either
pre-order, uh, but certainlyit's going to be real close to
when your book's coming out.
Where do you want them to go toget your book and how can they
connect with you?
Speaker 1 (37:02):
Yeah, thank you so much.
So please go to my website,jillschulmancom.
It's just spelled, it's veryeasy, jill, but last name is
S-C-H-U-L-M-A, and if you gothere, I've got a couple
freebies for your audience,which is there is a free bravery
assessment.
It only takes a couple ofminutes and it gives you an idea
on where are you strong interms of mindset, actions and
(37:24):
those brave relationships.
So there's a free assessmentthat you can take.
Also, if you buy the book interms of pre-order on my website
, you can let people know that Ihave pre-ordered it, and then
we give you some free resources.
We give you the first six booksof the first I'm sorry, first
six chapters of the book rightaway so you can get started
reading as you're waiting for it.
And then we have all kinds ofother little freebies.
(37:47):
We have a brave action guidewhich gives you some of the
evidence-based practices rightaway.
We also give you a freediscussion guide, because I
really recommend that you readthe book with the team that you
lead at work for leaders outthere, and there's a great
discussion guide so that we canstart being braver at work to be
able to accomplish our goals.
So all those freebies.
So jillschulmancom is a greatplace to go.
(38:09):
Make sure you go there first soyou can get all the freebies.
You can take the assessment.
Of course, the book will beavailable.
I mean you can pre-order it nowon Amazon and any of those
things, and then you can followme on any social media.
For anyone that's in theprofessional workplace.
If you're on LinkedIn, pleasefollow me on LinkedIn.
(38:30):
Another thing that can helpwith our brave mindset is making
sure that we're surroundingourselves with messages daily
that help boost our courage.
So I make a commitment to dothat.
So if you follow me, just alittle message maybe it's a
quote from Epictetus or a littlevideo of me for 15 seconds give
you those little remindersevery day to choose the hard
path.
Speaker 2 (38:49):
Yeah, those daily devotions, if you will, that
commitment to just keep it inthe front of your mind, because
that's important, that youcontinue to feed your mind those
positive things.
But, as you say, then it'staking bold action and curating
those connections.
Man, I've enjoyed thisconversation.
I want to respect your time,though, as well.
Jill, I know that I believe thelisteners of the Uncommon
(39:10):
Leader podcast are going to findgreat value in our conversation
today, as well as in your book.
I know I've got minepre-ordered and again, some
folks will listen to this afterthe book is launched.
That's okay.
I've got mine pre-ordered andagain, some folks will listen to
this after the book is launched.
That's okay.
Go out there and get a copy ofthe book and review it with your
team.
I'm quite sure it's going to bea bestseller.
So get out there and add it toyour library of books.
Jill, I'm going to give you thelast word.
I'm going to give you abillboard.
(39:31):
We're going to put it outsideFenway Park.
The outside you can put anymessage that you want to on that
billboard.
What's the message that you puton there and why?
Speaker 1 (39:47):
I would have to choose.
Comfort and growth do notcoexist Just simple.
I'm not the first one who'vesaid it, but that's that
universal truth, just simple.
I'm not the first one who'vesaid it, but that's that
universal truth.
And the reason I choose that isI feel like the world needs a
(40:09):
little bit of a reminder of thetruth of what we know in
psychology that if we want togrow, if we want to develop, if
we want to be happy, if we wantto be successful, comfort is not
going to get us there.
So I want everyone to embracediscomfort.
If we want to grow, if we wantto develop, if we want to be
happy, if we want to besuccessful, comfort is not going
to get us there.
So I want everyone to embracediscomfort as the most wonderful
way for your brain and yourbody to adapt.
Go to a Spartan race, challengeyour body, challenge your mind
(40:31):
and you will have a great life.
So that is my final word.
Speaker 2 (40:36):
So great.
Jill, thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (40:38):
All right, have a good one.
Thanks so great, jill.
Thank you so much, all righthave a good one.
Speaker 2 (40:43):
Thanks for having me.
And that wraps up anotherepisode of the uncommon leader
podcast.
Thanks for tuning in today.
If you found value in thisepisode, I encourage you to
share it with your friends,colleagues or anyone else who
could benefit from the insightsand inspiration we've shared.
Also, if you have a moment, I'dgreatly appreciate if you could
leave a rating and review onyour favorite podcast platform.
Your feedback not only helps usto improve, but it also helps
(41:06):
others discover the podcast andjoin our growing community of
uncommon leaders.
Until next time, go and growchampions.
Do we choose to keep moving forward or even in change
?
Because so many of my clientsare facing change and
uncertainty and we have a choiceDo we just sit there, dump out
it and just not do anything, ordo we move toward it?
Like you know, we always haveto be moving.
What I really care about andwhy I'm so passionate the people
who are struggling and don'tfeel like they're brave, like
I'm here to help them, becauseyou can, little by little,
(00:22):
little, learn to be brave andwhen you get through that
journey, there is nothing thatfeels better as you build your
self-confidence.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
Hey, Uncommon Leaders , welcome back.
This is the Uncommon Leaderpodcast.
I'm your host, John Gallagher,and have I got a fantastic,
inspirational guest for youtoday?
The conversation we're about tohave is for those individuals
who are feeling stuck in thework that they're in right now,
maybe in a relationship thatthey have or, ultimately, in
their own life.
Realizing that their potentialthey know they can reach is just
(01:02):
not happening for them, and weneed a way to make that happen.
Our guest today is a former USMarine Corps officer, a positive
psychology expert and thefounder of the Breakthrough
Leadership Group, and now we'regoing to put author beside her
name the author of the BraveryEffect.
In this book, she makes apowerful case that true growth
and success comes from embracingdiscomfort and that bravery is
(01:25):
a skill and a muscle that we canactually build.
So I can't wait to have aconversation about that.
Jill Shulman, welcome to theUncommon Leader Podcast.
How are you doing today?
Speaker 1 (01:34):
I am fantastic and so excited to chat with you.
Speaker 2 (01:38):
Well, this is going to be great and I'm going to
jump right in.
No reason to wait.
Your book.
The core message is thatbravery isn't really the absence
of fear, but it's forwardmotion in spite of that fear.
So how do individuals kind ofrecognize in terms of what a
healthy fear is, that they don'thave to do anything about, or
something that's just holdingthem back and it's in their own
(01:59):
mind?
Speaker 1 (02:00):
Yeah, I mean just in general.
Yeah, bravery is taking actionin the presence of fear toward a
worthwhile goal.
So if we look at the definition, you know, sometimes fear is a
very, very good sign thatthere's danger and we should
move away.
You know, fear is what kept usalive and Daniel Kahneman's work
(02:24):
you know, Nobel Prize winningpsychologist found that we're
actually twice as motivated toavoid things that are riskier
that we fear.
You're just a human being,You're normal, right, but we
(02:51):
have to learn to differentiatebetween the fears we should
listen to, which is like theedge of a cliff, a black bear or
a saber-toothed tiger, physicaldanger, versus the dangers that
we normally face today, whichis social danger, which is
usually the fear of failure, thefear of rejection.
(03:11):
But our brain, our nervoussystem, doesn't know the
difference, so we just react thesame way.
So I guess, to answer yourquestion, we've got to know when
we feel fear.
We've got to decide is thissomething dangerous where it's
not a worthwhile goal, it'sactually something I should run
away from?
Or am I just nervous because ofthe social fear, but it's
(03:34):
standing in between me and thething that I really want?
So what's that worthwhile goal?
What is the thing that youreally want, and if there's fear
holding you back from gettingto that, then when you feel that
fear, I want you to look atthat as a sign that there's
something important.
You need to move toward it.
So don't run away.
Move toward that type of fear.
Speaker 2 (03:57):
I love that, like you said, you can distinguish the
difference.
When somebody says to jump outof an airplane without a
parachute, you can definitelytell that type of fear is not
really logical to use.
But in the space of change,especially in the workplace that
we work in today as leaders,some of those fears that hold us
back are our own, made up stuffthat really exists Now inside.
(04:17):
What I kind of talk about withregards to change is that, you
know, people ultimately changewhen the displeasure of
remaining where they are todayis greater than the pain of the
change itself, and they'll makea change once they understand
that they're stuck.
The term that you use insidethe book, which I think is
really cool, is the comfort trap, and so when you think about
that term, the comfort trap ifyou would define that for me
(04:40):
just a little bit and then giveme one or two you know things
that you identify as a coach andas an expert in that space that
people are in a comfort trapversus something that's really a
fear.
Speaker 1 (04:51):
Yeah.
So just let's just let's talkabout what a comfort trap is.
You've been reading the book soyou understand.
But for your audience?
So the comfort trap is when, inthe moments we have to decide to
do the right thing that'suncomfortable, or to do the easy
thing that is comfortable.
You know, when we choosecomfort, it makes it harder for
(05:13):
us next time to do theuncomfortable thing.
And I like to use the analogyof it's like building a muscle
right, if you don't work outyour body and your muscles
atrophy and then your body getsweaker over time.
So think of it the same way interms of our bravery, like, if
we continually don't go into thebravery gym, the mental gym of
(05:34):
doing the hard thing, we'regoing to become weaker and less
resilient.
So the comfort trap means whenyou push the easy button, it
makes it that much harder to beable to do the challenging thing
.
You know, and and when we buildthe muscle of bravery, and, and
we can it is like building amuscle.
Like, literally, our brain canrewire.
We have brain plasticity thatwill change the way our brain um
(05:58):
, the composition of our brain,with an increasing prefrontal
cortex also the rewiring of ourbrain from different parts of
our brain, you parts of ourbrain.
So when we take a little stepforward towards something we
fear, then our confidenceincreases a little bit and our
brain says whoa, whoa, whoa,whoa.
What are we doing here?
That was kind of hard.
And so your brain, your body,is saying I need to be ready for
that next time.
(06:18):
So the more you take stepstoward things that you fear in
the pursuit of those worthwhilegoals, you build that bravery
muscle.
But every time we choose theeasy button, we fall more into
the comfort trap and then we'relike then we feel like see, I'm
not able to.
So it becomes a vicious cycleand I think a lot of people are
stuck that way.
(06:38):
And some tangible examples justI see in the workplace.
It's not a lack of talent, it'snot a lack of capability, but
fear just completely controlsindividuals.
Let's use the example of justspeaking up, like speaking up
with an idea, or leaders, likehaving difficult conversations
(07:01):
about performance or givingconstructive feedback.
You know, some leaders justavoid it because it's just
uncomfortable for them, right?
And then the more they avoid it, then the harder it gets, you
know.
So that's just one littleexample, but I think many of us
are stuck in the comfort trap,and we've been there so long,
it's so hard for us to break out.
Speaker 2 (07:22):
It really is, and you touched on this a little bit as
well in terms of again, some ofthe things that I've read about
your organization is that it'shelping those individuals just
become aware of it because theyget in it for so long it becomes
easier to just hang out thereand that complacency or that
good enough feeling resides.
And that's not who we werecreated to be.
(07:43):
It just isn't.
We weren't created to be goodenough, we were created to be
and do so much more.
You have a Marine background.
I'm sure that's informed someof the book in terms of and your
teaching methodology as well.
Give me an example or a storyfrom the Marines that still
informs who you are today, as aperson or as a leader.
Speaker 1 (08:02):
Oh boy, we've got so many you know.
So I would say, hey, when Ifirst decided to try and to earn
the title of United StatesMarine, I went the college route
first.
So I had a full scholarship onthe Marine Corps.
So that means I go to collegefor four years and then I'm
commissioned to become anofficer and I thought I knew
(08:23):
what I was getting into but Iapplied on my own.
My parents were not even reallyaware and all of a sudden I
said I have a full scholarshipin the Marine Corps, I'm leaving
Minnesota and I'm going to SanDiego.
They're like what?
And I was pretty confident atthe time.
I'm like I earned thescholarship, I had the academics
, I had the leadership, I hadwhat I thought was the fitness.
(08:45):
And then I arrived in San Diegoand I was in for a rude
awakening.
In fact, my first day Ireported in.
So when you go to college, mostkids report in, not report in.
I'm using military terms go tothe orientation where all the
students kind of hang out.
But if you're in ROTC, you gotto go another week early for the
(09:08):
orientation of Naval ReserveOfficer Training Corps, rotc.
But it's like a mini boot camp.
And, by the way, when youreport in, there's tons of
people there.
A majority of the midshipmen wecall them are going into the
Navy.
They're peeling left and if youare the Marine Corps option,
you go to the right.
I'm looking at, everyone go tothe left and there's only a
(09:29):
couple going to the right.
And then I go to the right andno one looks like me.
And then let me just tell youwhat I was wearing.
I'm so embarrassed to admitthat I put a lot of thought into
my outfit.
I mean I'm kind of girly.
I mean that's kind of theinteresting thing.
I had a very successful careerin the Marine Corps but I'm like
I don't want to wear a dressthat's too girly.
But I don't want to wear jeans,because I read that jeans
(09:51):
officers can't wear jeans.
So I was wearing some some likeknee length silk shorts that
were hot pink and littlematching heels, like I mean,
what was I thinking?
But I thought I looked veryprofessional.
So I don't know if you have ascene in your mind of like I'm a
stunt double to legally blonde.
Speaker 2 (10:09):
So I went there.
I'm sorry, I went there, reeseWitherspoon, that's exactly
where I went.
I mean, yeah, go ahead, goahead.
Speaker 1 (10:23):
So I mean, so I mean they were just, I think,
salivating, going like we'regoing to get here.
And on my first day I had oneof the upperclassmen who was
about to be commissioned and hecame up to me and he whispered
like you'll never make it as a.
Marine.
So that was my.
That was the first time where Iam faced with a choice and this
is really important for youraudience Like there's big
(10:43):
choices and there's littlechoices.
So on that first day I'mreporting in, this was my ticket
to get my college degree paidfor.
This was my ticket to start acareer that had meaning, and I
encountered some adversity.
I could have chosen to quit andgo back home to my family and
friends in Minnesota, but inlife we have choices of go the
(11:06):
hard path or take the easy pathright, and in that moment I was
there to stay and so I chose,like I'm going to keep going.
And it didn't get better.
The second day got worsebecause I thought I was in shape
.
But do you know the hills thatthey have in Southern California
?
I was in shape, but do you knowthe hills that they have in
Southern California?
There's a place called TecaloteCanyon near University of San
(11:28):
Diego.
It is a torture chamber becauseit's just hills.
And on day two we went outrunning.
You know, in our Marine Corpsyou know physical training gear,
pt gear, and I couldn't keep up.
Most of the people in my unitwere actually prior enlisted
Marines that earned an abilityto go to college for four years.
(11:50):
So there's some of us thatfresh out of high school, but a
lot of them were existingMarines, and so I wasn't keeping
up and it was hard, because itis not cool, it is very shameful
if you can't keep up physically.
You know so, and I struggledwith that for the whole first
year.
But each day I had to make achoice, knowing do I keep doing
(12:14):
the hard thing, faith that withtime I can grow the skill, or do
I just say this is too hard,I'm going to give up?
And I think this we have aparallel in the business world.
Like we have really challenginggoals, or we're we challenging
goals or we've got someadversity that we're facing.
There's huge changes there.
Do we choose to keep movingforward, or even in change,
because so many of my clientsare facing change and
(12:35):
uncertainty and we have a choiceDo we just sit there
dumbfounded and just not doanything, or do we move toward
it?
Like you know, we always haveto be moving.
So I kept showing up and there'sa happy ending to this story.
I kept at it, I kept at it andthen, between my junior and
senior of college, you have togo to officer candidate school,
(12:56):
which is kind of like boot campfor officers.
If you can't get throughofficer candidate school you're
not going to be able to be anofficer.
So I went there and aftertraining for years and I got
really strong and so when I cameback from officer candidate
school they measure you onphysical fitness, your
leadership ability, yourmarksmanship, like everything,
(13:16):
and I had the highest rankingout of any one of the Marines
from my school.
The prior enlisted the otherstudents as a female, like I
outranked all of them and sothen my unit recognized that and
they made me the midshipmanbattalion commander, which means
I was in charge of all thestudents.
So it's kind of that comebackstory and the reason why it's so
(13:36):
meaningful is probably becauseI had so much adversity, because
it was so hard in the beginning, and I think that's what I
really care about and why I'm sopassionate the people who are
struggling and don't feel likethey're brave, like I'm here to
help them, because you canlittle by little learn to be
brave and when you get throughthat journey there is nothing
(13:59):
that feels better as you buildyour self-confidence.
So I know that's the story thatcomes to mind that relates to
bravery, yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:06):
I love that story.
I love that story as it relatesto bravery and as it relates to
who you are today and I umgentlemen Roy Vaden, ceo of
Brand Builders Group.
He would say we are mostpowerfully positioned to help
the person that we once were.
I would imagine you can usethat story of bravery, uh, in
experiences with your clients,and I'll ask this without
(14:27):
revealing any names do you haveany favorite client story where
you've helped them to go throughsomething like that and do
something hard and come out onthe other side very successful?
Speaker 1 (14:38):
Absolutely.
You know, as I bring my work,the research on bravery, to
programs, to companies, it'susually the little moments of
someone who comes up to me andtells me their story of you know
, I was scared of doing this butI was brave and I did the hard
thing and as a result, I got thepromotion.
(14:58):
So there's countless, countlessstories.
But as I go in and I teach itto a large group where I do a
keynote, and I get peoplereaching out to me saying like
what you said mattered.
And the one thing I take pridein is and I don't mean to take
away from some of my fellowkeynote speakers, but a lot of
keynote speakers tell theirinspirational story and say,
look at what I've done, like, belike me and just toughen it out
(15:22):
.
But what I teach areevidence-based, evidence-based
tactics I always use militaryterms tactics or or actions you
can take that we know that willbuild your bravery over time and
I think we have aresponsibility to do that.
I know that if people takeaction in the way that I teach
(15:44):
them, I have no doubt thatthey're going to be able to get
through the fear and I have allthe psychology to back it up.
So I have like I'm like thetough girl Marine, but I back it
up.
I studied psychology andeverything that I teach my, my
audiences, my clients, is basedon cognitive psychology.
We have to first win the battlein our mind I call it the
(16:04):
warrior mindset and then we needto, you know, but then we have
to take brave action.
Sometimes people like do a lotof things on mindset but then
they don't take a step, like thewhole mindset is to support
your action.
So I love doing work on mindset, but I'm like we're not going
to spend all the time doingmindset stuff, like you need to
(16:25):
take a step even if you'rescared.
And so we talk about thepsychology and this is
behavioral psychology, right.
And then those are the twothings that are more internal
that we're working on.
And then I always tell peoplelike there's some good news.
Do you want me to make iteasier?
And they're like, oh, my gosh,yes, please.
And then we talk about socialpsychology, on how, if you
(16:45):
surround yourself with peoplewho will not just say, oh, it's
okay, just give up, it's fine,you know, be easy on yourself.
No, surround yourself withpeople that are going to say, no
, keep going, get up and tryagain.
You can do this.
So surround yourself withpeople who are going to
challenge you, encourage you,put courage into you, you know,
and that will make it easier.
It's the theory where you end upconforming to the norms of the
(17:10):
people that you surroundyourself with, you know, and
people say you are who you hangout with.
Well, there's psychology thatbacks it up.
So make sure that you'reregularly hanging out with, or
having conversations with,people who have done the hard
thing that you're going to do orseeking to do.
So they can be the ones thatsay hey, when I was in your
shoes, I struggled too, but youcan do it, and it makes you feel
like, oh, wow, okay, I'll keepgoing.
(17:31):
So we work on mindset andactions, kind of in the
individual, and then we teach inthe social psychology that can
make it easier for them to bebrave, create the environment
that makes it easier for them totake that step forward.
Speaker 2 (17:47):
Love that those three steps are spot on in terms of
what I wanted.
To even go further, askingquestion developing that warrior
mindset, taking bold action andcurating those courageous
connections is something that'skind of something that you've
chatted about.
What's a daily practice aleader might take to, in essence
, develop that warrior mindset?
Speaker 1 (18:07):
that you talk about.
Yeah, so one that is very, verysimple, super simple, but very
powerful, is just using growthmindset by Carol Dweck, which I
teach it.
I like to make things simple,like in the Marine Corps, we'd
always say kiss it, keep itsimple, sir.
Right?
So there's all this evidenceand fancy stuff, but you just
(18:29):
can boil it down to one word.
That's three letters and it'syet.
So when you are encounteringchallenges in your work and
something bad happens and you'relike, oh my gosh, like the
world is falling apart, likewe're never going to be able to,
you know, overcome thischallenge, you can just use the
word yet, like we don't have theanswers right now to solve a
(18:51):
challenge, or we don't have theanswers yet, we haven't figured
out how to overcome the obstacleyet.
So when you say yet, it createsthis little shift in our mind
of saying it is possible andthink of, like warriors, what do
you think Navy SEALs andMarines do?
They're like, oh gosh, theenemy's in the way, oh well,
we're just going to quit.
No, we're like we haven'tfigured out how we're going to
(19:12):
overcome it yet.
And then we need to startthinking about and the reason
why this is so important is ifyou have a pessimistic point of
view saying everything is wrongand it's not going to get any
better, then that impacts youractions, then you're not going
to even try.
So the power of yet opens up alittle bit of optimism.
(19:34):
Marty Seligman, the father ofpositive psychology.
He's done so much research onoptimism and the reason why it's
so important is if you see thelittle sliver of possibility, it
means that there's a chance.
I'm optimistic that it'spossible for me to overcome the
challenge.
And if it's possible, then whatdoes it do to your actions?
Then you start thinking, youstart brainstorming, you think
(19:56):
about how you can do it.
So that's one practical thingis just always use that.
Yet it's really easy to just bein a pity party, right, and just
go like there's nothing we cando, like let's just complain
about it, like all right, let'sshift and say let's use the
power of yet and start thinkingabout how we could overcome it.
Right, and you know one thing,if I can say an additional thing
(20:18):
on positive psychology, I thinkwhen people learn that I've
studied positive psychology,like I, get some people like
rolling their eyes oh, positivethinking right you know, and I'm
like I am not woo woo, I am nothappy clappy like at all.
This is about being realistic.
Like this sucks.
This is a huge setback.
Let's be realistic.
(20:39):
But believing a warrior mindsetis believing that we can
overcome this.
We just got to figure out how.
We don't have the answers yet,but we can figure this out and
that's where that little glimmerof optimism allows everyone to
start moving toward it andthat's, I mean, those are the
best moments.
When you think back at storiesand companies, you're like
remember that time when we hadthis, oh my gosh, and all the
(21:02):
stuff that we had to do, when weovercame it.
Like those are the best oftimes, right.
Speaker 2 (21:06):
Hey, uncommon Leaders , hope you're enjoying the
episode.
So far, I believe in doingbusiness with people you like
and trust, and not just acompany name.
That's why a strong personalbrand is essential, whether
you're an entrepreneur or aleader within a company.
Brand Builders Group, the folkswho have been helping me refine
my own personal brand areoffering a free consultation
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They'll help you identify youruniqueness, craft a compelling
(21:27):
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So head on over tocoachjohngallaghercom slash BBG,
as in brand builders group, toschedule your free call and take
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noticed for all the rightreasons.
That's coachjohngallaghercomslash BBG.
Now let's get back to theepisode.
I love that it becomes theconnector, that yet becomes the
(21:49):
connector between that mindsetand that bold action that you
need to take.
I love kind of the picture ofthat, because you talked about
that, the power of yet.
It allows you to think aboutwhat other solutions might be
there.
And then again your third stepultimately those connections is
having those people around youthat can help lift those ideas
(22:09):
that you have to make it happenas well, so powerful.
I'll share this really quick,just because it's so recent for
me.
It was just a few days ago thatmyself and three other guys
chose the decision of doingsomething hard and doing our
second Spartan race.
We did our first one fourmonths ago, but to wait until we
were me, 56 years old and theother guys kind of in their
(22:31):
early 50s as well to dosomething hard like that for the
first time has the power of yet.
We had been training, we werefocused on being positive, but
we really needed to take somebold action to really get us
there.
Now, whether a Spartan race isbold compared to going in the
Marines as an officer in ROTCand we'll talk about that a
little bit more at the end justin terms of movies.
For us it was our way ofchoosing something hard and we
(22:54):
had that mindset going in.
That was really important.
Leaders, you've got to stay onthat positive side and to your
point, we're not talking aboutfoo foo positive that you know I
can do whatever I want to do.
Speaker 1 (23:10):
That's not what that means inside of that space.
I really liked that.
Yeah, you know, um just made methink.
By the way, I just signed upfor my first Spartan in November
.
Speaker 2 (23:17):
It's a stadium, so are you going to Boston and
doing that 5k and you're goingto be a speaker as well, cause I
know Nick.
He invited me to that thing.
My problem with November 8th isNovember 15th is the.
Is the half marathon Spartanthat we're running in South
Carolina.
I'm like do I want to run astadium and do I look first?
Speaker 1 (23:37):
of all, be careful.
You know what, John?
It would be a good workout, thestadiums are.
That's what it is, that's thenew finisher.
Speaker 2 (23:42):
That's what I'm trying to tell myself.
Positive mindset.
More your mindset, absolutely.
First of all, be careful withSpartans.
It has nothing to do withanything physical.
It has to do with the community.
That is an unbelievablecommunity of one of the things I
didn't expect.
That connection that you talkabout in terms of a group of
thousands of people that arethere really for the same reason
(24:03):
yeah, they want to win and geton the pedestal, but the
majority of those individualsare there just to do something
hard and say they did it andaccomplish it.
I'm like man.
I never would have thought I'dbe able to do that.
That's what I make up aboutthat crowd anyway.
Speaker 1 (24:16):
And then I'm hearing the way you speak.
You're like I never thought Icould do that, but I did.
I'm Spartan.
Speaker 2 (24:25):
It makes you feel unstoppable, and did it suck?
Speaker 1 (24:27):
Oh gosh, the hardest thing I've ever done physically,
no doubt about it, exactly, andso in the Marine Corps and in
the Navy SEALs we have thislittle saying and we say embrace
the suck right.
And this is what.
I mean Sometimes and it's sofunny because it was just the
saying that we used to say andit was a silly saying, and I'm
like they're just trying to makeour misery like better, like
(24:48):
this is just trying to trick us.
But now that I've studiedpsychology, I'm like how we
react to it.
Speaker 2 (24:52):
So this is the work of Aaliyah Crum, kelly McGonigal
.
Speaker 1 (25:04):
They've done research on mindset, on stress.
If you think stress andchallenges are horrible and
they're going to ruin your lifeand you're going to die because
you're experiencing stress andall that, you will have a
negative response to stressphysiologically and how you deal
with the obstacle.
But if you have a mindset onstress that is this is gonna
make me stronger.
(25:24):
These challenges are gonna grow.
My cognitive capacity If it'ssomething at work, a challenge,
my physical capacity if it's aSpartan race, if you're seeking
challenge and going like I wantit to be hard because this is
gonna make me stronger.
So that embrace the suck thatterm.
It is actually valid from apsychological point of view.
(25:45):
So I don't know if you'velooked at any of like Aaliyah
Crum or Kelly McGonigal's work.
She did like a TEDx talk too,but they literally did a study
in companies, because a lot ofpeople in your audience, you
know are in the workplace.
They literally went into acompany and they studied their
mindset on stress and thenrelated it to performance and
(26:06):
health outcomes and half thepeople they told stress is good
for you, stress makes youstronger, stress is your body's
way of preparing you forsomething that's important.
Stress is the thing that makeslife great, because it makes you
grow and develop and meet yourpotential.
So group number one was toldstress is good.
(26:26):
Group number two was toldstress is horrible.
You need to avoid challenges,you need to make it like the
complete opposite.
And so both I guess arms of thestudy were told a different
message in different rooms.
They thought they're hearingthe same thing.
And then they followed thesepeople and they put them in
stressful situations at work.
It was in a finance company andprobably no surprise.
But those individuals that weretaught that stress is good,
(26:50):
they perform better, they hadhigher work satisfaction and
they actually looked at somehealth outcomes.
They even had higher levels ofDHEA.
Speaker 2 (26:58):
Oh yeah, absolutely HRV, heart rate variability,
whatever method you want, I meanwhatever longevity and response
to stress, all of it.
Speaker 1 (27:07):
Just mindset on stress, just that little thing.
So that's why I say warriormindset.
I want people to reach theirpotential.
I want them to know you've gotto use the power of yet.
But I want you to realize thatwhen a challenge comes your way,
when you have that, you're at acrossroads and you have to
choose.
Am I going to face it Now, I'mgoing to turn left, which is
going to be challenging, or am Igoing to choose the easy path?
(27:31):
I also say to my audience areyou going to be brave?
Are you going to cower?
Because that's exactly what itis.
When you choose to be brave andmove forward like it is, when
you choose to be brave and moveforward like it is, it is these
are the best things in life, andso I'm so it all starts in
mindset.
So just when you, when I see achallenge now, I'm like bring it
.
I love challenges now and Ithink my brain is rewired Like
(27:53):
the harder the better.
I love challenges because Iknow what makes me stronger.
Speaker 2 (27:58):
You know I want to put a shameless plug in here.
You mentioned the race inboston on november 8th.
If you all want to get a chanceto see jill speak as well on
november 9th, nick hutchson, theceo of book thinkers he's
holding an event in boston.
You can go to bookthinkerscomand look that up for that event.
It's going to be a phenomenalevent to learn from speakers and
podcasters that are influencing, impacting and encouraging all
(28:20):
kinds of leaders to do thosehard things, just like you're
talking about Jill and have thatwarrior mindset.
So a little shameless plug inthere for Nick.
I'll copy him on the text onthis to let him know we talked
about it and I hope now you'vegot me to where I almost here's
that challenge again, thatwarrior mindset.
I got to be there November 8thand run in Fenway Park, which I
(28:41):
have some friends in Boston aswell that I'm trying to
encourage to be there that dayalso and run.
Speaker 1 (28:47):
John, you need to come with.
You got to be there.
Speaker 2 (28:50):
I think you just helped me make the decision,
jill.
I'm going to be there November8th.
I'll be there for the 5K,regardless of what my body tells
me, so we'll see how that goes.
Speaker 1 (28:58):
It's a good training run.
It's a great warm-up.
Speaker 2 (29:01):
I got you.
Yeah, it's nothing.
5k is nothing compared to 20,21K.
Yeah, we'll see.
Stay idiots.
I can't imagine what thisthing's going to be like.
Anyway, back to you.
Look some of my favoriteauthors Andy Andrews, patrick
Lencioni, robin Sharma.
They use fables to tell theirstory, to tell their leadership
tips.
Your book Bravery Effect isalso a fable.
(29:21):
It's a story that you'vewritten rather than choosing to
write a tacticalpaint-by-numbers book.
Tell me a little bit about whatyou led to write it as a story
and how that was for you inauthoring it.
Speaker 1 (29:34):
I knew 10 years ago that when I wrote a book, it
would be a parable, a fable, andwhat influenced me is Len
Sione's book.
Yes, but I discovered this bookbefore the, my first.
The first book that I read thatreally influenced me was the
new the one minute manager.
Speaker 2 (29:52):
Sure Spencer, john, yeah, I'm here.
Yeah, those guys, those threeguys, yeah.
Speaker 1 (29:56):
Yeah, so such a fantastic book.
In fact, when I go intocompanies and I do a lot of
leadership development work aswell I always recommend New
Leaders.
Everyone has to read that bookand it makes such an impact
because it takes lessons and itmakes them sticky right.
And then I love Lencioni's.
I love I mean there's so manyexamples.
(30:18):
I love John Gordon's books.
Absolutely John Gordon as well,no doubt so all these people
that have written these booksand they make a big impact and
they make the scientificinformation stick and, being
kind of a nerd at heart, Isometimes get a little too like
scientific and I'm like Ichallenge myself to make this
one a parable.
So that way I have a couple ofmotivations.
(30:41):
Number one is I want people toremember it so that it sticks.
Number two, I want people toread all the way to the end of
the book, and when it's a storyyou've got to get to the end.
How many business books do Ihave where I read I get maybe
halfway through, like maybe youknow if it's really good, but
sometimes I don't get throughthe whole thing, and so I wanted
to do that.
And then Ken Blanchard hasbecome a mentor of mine.
Speaker 2 (31:01):
He wrote the fourth book.
Speaker 1 (31:03):
He'll be at my little book launch party.
John Gordon is another mentorof mine and the link here
between the book that I wrote asa parable and then what's in
the book is I talk about thatbrave tribe.
You've got to curate thesecourageous connections like who
you hang out with.
So when I decided to write abook, I'm like I'm thinking like
(31:25):
I need to surround myself withpeople who have successfully
written and publishedbestselling books and I need to
be brave enough to approach them, because you're a little
intimidated by them, and thenbrave enough to be vulnerable
and say I have no idea what I'mdoing.
So I did that with Ken, I'vedone that with John, so I've got
these amazing people that havegiven me their guidance as
(31:48):
mentors.
So I think so many times in thebusiness world like we see a
leader that's two levels higherthan us and we're like well,
they don't want to help me, theydon't want to help me.
Like we just assume and we goto work and we pretend like we
have all the answers.
No, we just assume and we go towork and we pretend like we
have all the answers.
No, I'm fine, I don't needanything bullcrap yes, you do,
you need advice and mentors stop.
you know, this is where so many,a lot of macho men are like I'm
(32:10):
brave, I have no problem, I doall this, I'm like all right,
let's talk about your braverywhen it comes to relationships.
How are you at admittingmistakes and admitting when you
need help?
Oh, mr bravery, mr Bravery orMiss Bravery, so that's a big
part of you know.
My model too is you know you'vegot to be open to ask for
(32:30):
feedback, ask for help.
So part of bravery isapproaching the people that you
look up to that haveaccomplished what you want to
accomplish, and then reachingout and asking for help or
asking for suggestions, and youcan accomplish that goal so much
faster if you can be brave inthat vulnerable sense when it
comes to brave relationships.
Speaker 2 (32:51):
Jill.
I love that and, as I just kindof again listen through and
hear that, I hope that we canget your book in the hands of
all members of Congress and theexecutive branch of our
government as well, to reallylearn about admitting mistakes
and finding and asking for inputand things like that, because
it's a disease that our countryhas suffered from for a long
(33:12):
time, that they could use a gooddose of humility in asking for
a challenge.
There's no doubt about it.
When you think about those whohave now read the book, they've
gotten to the end, okay.
And they take your book and theyput it up on a bookshelf, like
the ones behind us, and theylook at it in a year.
Okay, here's the book test.
What do you want them to thinkwhen they see that book a year
(33:34):
from now?
Speaker 1 (33:37):
I want them to think about what do they really want?
But they're not moving forwardon and I want them to act
immediately.
So I want them to remember whatthey learned in the book run
toward what scares you in thebest possible way, like you have
fears that are so it's.
It's really the, the coremessage, which is what do I want
(33:57):
?
I'm scared of doing it.
Do not wait until you feelready.
Do not wait for the fear to goaway.
You just have to run toward it.
It is action, it's taking stepsforward that creates the
momentum.
So we all know that life thatwe want is not the life that we
have right now.
We have those goals in front ofus.
Stop waiting.
Stop waiting for the time to beright.
(34:18):
Just take brave action.
You know what Marines do?
We attack the hill, we justcharge forward.
I want you to charge forwardBecause the potential of that is
greater levels of success andwhat I'm most excited about in
my research and this is where Ido get a little woo-woo
(34:38):
everything that I teach helpspeople accomplish more, be more
successful, make more money, allthat kind of stuff.
But you know what I care aboutthat, but you know what I really
care about.
I care about overall happinessand well-being, because that is
what positive psychology is.
It's a scientific study ofelevating happiness and
well-being.
Brave and accomplish thesemeaningful things that you
(35:02):
really want in life.
You will get such an increase,a boost in your life
satisfaction, your happiness andyour well-being.
A lot of people confuse.
They think, oh, happiness isjust smiling every day.
No, like, there's so much moreto living a fulfilled life than
that.
Smiling.
Laughing every day is just onesmall portion.
So this and I think there'sconfusion on the world
especially I see the worldthrough my kids' eyes.
(35:24):
They think like, oh, happinessis just like everything being
handed to me and just and andbeing comfortable and smiling
all day.
That is not the recipe for agood life.
That is actually a shortcut foran unfulfilled life filled with
anxiety and depression.
That is what that is.
So you know.
So what I care about most isfor people applying what they
(35:44):
learned so that they can lookback at their life without
regret and lived an amazing life.
That's what I care about.
It's who people become on thejourney, when they become brave.
It is.
It's amazing when I hear frompeople who have heard me speak
or have put these things topractice and they're like I'm.
I'm a different person than Iwas before and I never knew I
(36:06):
could do this person and I'm andI look in the mirror with pride
now.
I can't believe I did that.
And you hear these stories andyou're like you had it in you
the whole time.
You were just letting fearcontrol you and you've learned
to conquer that fear.
It's, it's so exciting.
Speaker 2 (36:20):
Jill, I love that, love that man.
I've enjoyed our conversationand I know some of the things
you're saying.
Like I want to spill my ownstories of failure on you and
like, help me with this one kindof thing, as I lived through it
, and maybe when we're on theSpartan race course and we're
taking it easy so I can goforward, then, then uh, but
we're going to finish thatsucker, um.
I'll share some of thosestories with you in November in
Boston, of where I have some ofthose times I didn't charge
(36:43):
forward and some of those timesthat I did.
Um, when, as we're recordingthis, we're a couple of weeks
out from when your book islaunching, when we get it out
and make it live, folks arestill going to be able to either
pre-order, uh, but certainlyit's going to be real close to
when your book's coming out.
Where do you want them to go toget your book and how can they
connect with you?
Speaker 1 (37:02):
Yeah, thank you so much.
So please go to my website,jillschulmancom.
It's just spelled, it's veryeasy, jill, but last name is
S-C-H-U-L-M-A, and if you gothere, I've got a couple
freebies for your audience,which is there is a free bravery
assessment.
It only takes a couple ofminutes and it gives you an idea
on where are you strong interms of mindset, actions and
(37:24):
those brave relationships.
So there's a free assessmentthat you can take.
Also, if you buy the book interms of pre-order on my website
, you can let people know that Ihave pre-ordered it, and then
we give you some free resources.
We give you the first six booksof the first I'm sorry, first
six chapters of the book rightaway so you can get started
reading as you're waiting for it.
And then we have all kinds ofother little freebies.
(37:47):
We have a brave action guidewhich gives you some of the
evidence-based practices rightaway.
We also give you a freediscussion guide, because I
really recommend that you readthe book with the team that you
lead at work for leaders outthere, and there's a great
discussion guide so that we canstart being braver at work to be
able to accomplish our goals.
So all those freebies.
So jillschulmancom is a greatplace to go.
(38:09):
Make sure you go there first soyou can get all the freebies.
You can take the assessment.
Of course, the book will beavailable.
I mean you can pre-order it nowon Amazon and any of those
things, and then you can followme on any social media.
For anyone that's in theprofessional workplace.
If you're on LinkedIn, pleasefollow me on LinkedIn.
(38:30):
Another thing that can helpwith our brave mindset is making
sure that we're surroundingourselves with messages daily
that help boost our courage.
So I make a commitment to dothat.
So if you follow me, just alittle message maybe it's a
quote from Epictetus or a littlevideo of me for 15 seconds give
you those little remindersevery day to choose the hard
path.
Speaker 2 (38:49):
Yeah, those daily devotions, if you will, that
commitment to just keep it inthe front of your mind, because
that's important, that youcontinue to feed your mind those
positive things.
But, as you say, then it'staking bold action and curating
those connections.
Man, I've enjoyed thisconversation.
I want to respect your time,though, as well.
Jill, I know that I believe thelisteners of the Uncommon
(39:10):
Leader podcast are going to findgreat value in our conversation
today, as well as in your book.
I know I've got minepre-ordered and again, some
folks will listen to this afterthe book is launched.
That's okay.
I've got mine pre-ordered andagain, some folks will listen to
this after the book is launched.
That's okay.
Go out there and get a copy ofthe book and review it with your
team.
I'm quite sure it's going to bea bestseller.
So get out there and add it toyour library of books.
Jill, I'm going to give you thelast word.
I'm going to give you abillboard.
(39:31):
We're going to put it outsideFenway Park.
The outside you can put anymessage that you want to on that
billboard.
What's the message that you puton there and why?
Speaker 1 (39:47):
I would have to choose.
Comfort and growth do notcoexist Just simple.
I'm not the first one who'vesaid it, but that's that
universal truth, just simple.
I'm not the first one who'vesaid it, but that's that
universal truth.
And the reason I choose that isI feel like the world needs a
(40:09):
little bit of a reminder of thetruth of what we know in
psychology that if we want togrow, if we want to develop, if
we want to be happy, if we wantto be successful, comfort is not
going to get us there.
So I want everyone to embracediscomfort.
If we want to grow, if we wantto develop, if we want to be
happy, if we want to besuccessful, comfort is not going
to get us there.
So I want everyone to embracediscomfort as the most wonderful
way for your brain and yourbody to adapt.
Go to a Spartan race, challengeyour body, challenge your mind
(40:31):
and you will have a great life.
So that is my final word.
Speaker 2 (40:36):
So great.
Jill, thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (40:38):
All right, have a good one.
Thanks so great, jill.
Thank you so much, all righthave a good one.
Speaker 2 (40:43):
Thanks for having me.
And that wraps up anotherepisode of the uncommon leader
podcast.
Thanks for tuning in today.
If you found value in thisepisode, I encourage you to
share it with your friends,colleagues or anyone else who
could benefit from the insightsand inspiration we've shared.
Also, if you have a moment, I'dgreatly appreciate if you could
leave a rating and review onyour favorite podcast platform.
Your feedback not only helps usto improve, but it also helps
(41:06):
others discover the podcast andjoin our growing community of
uncommon leaders.
Until next time, go and growchampions.
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