September 16, 2025 • 25 mins
My Favorite Mistake #152: John Gallagher on Leadership Mistakes, Business Growth & Lessons Learned from Failure
Episode Guest: John Gallagher, Executive Coach, Mentor, Consultant, Founder & CEO of Growing Champions, LLC, and Host of 'The Uncommon Leader' Podcast.
In this insightful episode from the 'My Favorite Mistake' podcast, host Mark Graban welcomes John Gallagher for a candid discussion about the pivotal role mistakes play in #Business and #Leadership #Growth. Recorded three years ago, this timeless conversation delves into John's 'favorite mistake' – a significant venture into the real estate business where he encountered unexpected challenges, particularly in trying to change established processes (and navigate family dynamics with his mother-in-law!).
John shares powerful #LessonsLearned about adaptability, the importance of focusing on strengths, and the surprising applications of #Lean principles beyond manufacturing. Listeners will gain valuable perspectives on:
➡️ Embracing Failure: How #Mistakes and #Setbacks are not just inevitable, but essential catalysts for #PersonalGrowth and #ProfessionalDevelopment.
➡️ Humility in Leadership: The critical importance of being able to admit when you're wrong and fostering a culture where vulnerability is seen as a strength.
➡️ Process Improvement: Why having a robust process, even when 'every situation is unique,' can lead to greater success.
➡️ Creating Safe Environments: Building teams and organizations where open dialogue about #Mistakes is encouraged, leading to innovation and resilience.
➡️ The Uncommon Leader: Insights into common leadership pitfalls and the strengths that set truly #UncommonLeaders apart.
John also touches on his own podcast, 'The Uncommon Leader,' and his previous guest appearances on Mark Graban's 'Lean Blog Interviews.' This episode is a must-listen for executives, entrepreneurs, coaches, and anyone looking to transform their challenges into powerful learning opportunities.
Listen to the episode on other platforms:
👉https://youtu.be/c3Bq8i3lDrk
Guest: John Gallagher, Founder & CEO of Growing Champions, LLC, Host of 'The Uncommon Leader' Podcast.
🔗 https://www.linkedin.com/in/coachjohngallagher/
🔗 https://www.youtube.com/@coachjohngallagher
🔗 https://coachjohngallagher.com/freecall/
Host: Mark Graban, Host of 'My Favorite Mistake' Podcast.
🔗https://www.linkedin.com/in/mgraban/
🔗 https://www.leanblog.org/
🔗 https://www.markgraban.com/podcasts/
#ExecutiveCoaching #PodcastInterview #BusinessStrategy #LeadershipDevelopment #MarkGraban #JohnGallagher #RealEstateLessons #FailureIsAnOption #GrowthMindset
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
The mistake for me ultimately if you even bring it
up to a higher theme was goinginto a leadership role and
thinking that I could changesomeone else, I could change
their heart, I could changetheir mind.
It just wasn't something that Icould do, but it was something
that we fought our way throughfor a few years, because the
only people who can reallychoose to change and change
their behaviors are thoseindividuals Having the ego to
(00:20):
say, well, you should do thingsthe way I do things, and again,
whether that happened almost 20years ago.
It has really informed who I amas a leader today, as a
consultant in business, thatI've done as a coach and
coaching others.
I believe that many people willappreciate and will honor when
you can be in front of them andlet them know that I made a
(00:42):
mistake and I won't do thatagain.
But I learned from it.
And, to a certain extent, whenyou apologize and you ask for
forgiveness in that space,that's the uncommon.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
Well, hi and welcome to my Favorite Mistake.
I'm Mark Rabin.
Our guest today is JohnGallagher.
He is the founder and CEO ofhis Rowing Champions LLC.
He's a coach and a mentor.
He's worked for a consultingfirm for a decade, after being
an operations manager and adivision president for two
different companies, and John isalso the host of a podcast
(01:24):
called the Uncommon Leader, so Iencourage you to check that out
wherever you're listening tothis podcast.
So, john, thanks for being hereas a guest today.
How are you, mark?
Speaker 1 (01:34):
I'm doing well.
Thanks very much.
I'm looking forward to spendingthe time with you.
I've been listening on a few ofthe past episodes, so this
should be fun.
Speaker 2 (01:41):
And you're like me as a podcast host and I don't
sometimes I put up a Post-itnote to remind myself I'm the
guest, like, so I don't make themistake of.
Speaker 1 (01:50):
Yeah, I mean, I often think about that, just as it is
a little different although youhave many more interviews from
that side of the microphone thanI do and your experience I've
been listening in to learn a lotfrom you, so I don't have quite
as many bad habits to get ridof sitting on this side of being
the guest.
Speaker 2 (02:08):
I'm curious what my bad habits are.
Speaker 1 (02:11):
We all have them.
Speaker 2 (02:12):
We all yes, we all do , and I try to not repeat those
mistakes over and over again,like, for example and I'll try
not to do this to you today,john Sometimes I will
accidentally combine two orthree questions into one, when
maybe I should just parcel themout one at a time, so you can
coach me on that.
We'll see how it goes.
So, john, there's all kinds ofthings we can talk about today,
(02:33):
but we like to dive right in.
Looking back at the differentthings that you've done, what
would you say is your favoritemistake?
Speaker 1 (02:40):
My favorite mistake.
I've had a great time trying tothink through this Favorite
mistake, my favorite mistake.
I've had a great time trying tothink through this and while I
know I have too many probably tochoose from, there is one that
kind of comes to the top thatI've actually used in stories
before and oddly enough, mark, Ihad a Facebook post pop up from
11 years ago when I wrotesomething very similar.
So my favorite mistake has kindof hung along as I went through
(03:01):
.
But as you touched a little biton my career, I had been in
operations where I ran a smallfuel transfer company fuel
transfer pump company in FortWayne, indiana for about five
years and then really made afamily decision to move back to
Roanoke, virginia, where mywife's family was from, and at
the time it was an opportunitythat for me, I was in an
(03:24):
organization that was verysuccessful from a manufacturing
standpoint.
Our results were good andcontinuing to grow, and it was
something that I was prettycomfortable from a business and
career standpoint with the workthat I was in.
But it was clearly a familydecision that we made.
So, while leaving a successfulmanufacturing job as a division
(03:45):
president could be seen as afavorite mistake.
That actually wasn't the onethat I would go forward and talk
to, but what I ended up doingwas coming back and deciding
that I could do some of theskill set that I had in process
improvement continuousimprovement and implement that
from manufacturing into realestate sales.
And my mother-in-law had beenin real estate sales in Roanoke,
virginia, for about 30 yearsand I had this great idea of
(04:09):
teaming up with her to take someof the continuous improvement,
lean methodologies, if you will,into real estate sales and talk
with her about that, and sheseemed to be up for it.
So we teamed up and othersmight say my favorite mistake
would be going into businesswith my mother-in-law, but that
wasn't it as well.
Speaker 2 (04:28):
That could be risky.
That could have been, thatcould definitely be risky.
Speaker 1 (04:32):
Many of the cliches are never do business with
family members and things likethat.
But the fact is, even almost 20years later, we're still on
talking terms and doing reallywell Not in business together
anymore.
We're still on talking terms anddoing really well Not in
business together anymore.
But really the favorite mistakepart of that as I went into
business with her was me havingthe ego of thinking I could
(04:52):
change someone to make them kindof follow the management system
I had learned to adopt to overthe last 15 years.
That was a continuousimprovement methodology and
ultimately what that led to forme in trying to change my
mother-in-law's behaviors wasfrustration for me often and
really frustration for her forme asking her to really behave
(05:16):
or perform from a businessstandpoint in areas where it
just wasn't her strength.
So the mistake for meultimately if you even bring it
up to a higher theme was goinginto a leadership role and
thinking that I could changesomeone else.
I could change their heart, Icould change their mind.
It just wasn't something that Icould do, but it was something
that we fought our way throughfor a few years and actually
(05:37):
generated some success.
But it took me a couple ofyears to learn that in the
journey as well.
Speaker 2 (05:41):
Well, I'm glad, john, that you could resolve to the
point where you're on speakingterms.
Speaker 1 (05:46):
That is important, that is important, especially
with family, because you knowyou get as you say.
You can choose your friends,but you can't choose your family
, that's for sure.
So yeah, we are still familyand we're still in good spirits.
Absolutely Well, good.
Speaker 2 (05:57):
And it seems like you know that general advice
whether you know differentflavors of it of don't go into
business with a relative, don'tgo into business with a good
friend, don't loan money to afamily member, you know, it
seems like you know the risk is,if something goes wrong, now
you really screw up thisrelationship and maybe a lot of
people go into it thinking like,well, yeah, they say don't do
(06:19):
this, but we're going to besuccessful, we'll be different.
We'll be different.
I guess there are alwaysexceptions to the rule, but
sometimes the quote unquote ruleis there for a reason?
Speaker 1 (06:27):
Well, absolutely, and again I don't even know that it
was as much the family as themistake, as it was again me
having the ego to say, well, youshould do things the way I do
things, and coming forward withthat and how it took me a little
while to learn and really adaptand adopt to that.
And again, whether that happened50, almost 20 years ago, it has
really informed who I am as aas a leader today, as a
(06:49):
consultant in business, thatI've done as a coach and
coaching others, because theonly people who can really
choose to change and changetheir behaviors are those
individuals and all I can reallydo is model and and ultimately
see what others will see in thework that I do, that they'll
want to do that as well.
But I had to learn to adjust tothat and there were probably
(07:10):
things that slowed us down as aresult of that favorite mistake,
especially again asking her orasking any individual to work in
an area that might be outsideof their strength zone, sort of
outside, and it can be in alearning zone from a comfort
zone standpoint, but ultimatelyin organizations it takes a lot
of different aptitudes in termsof the business to make it
successful.
(07:31):
And if you have too many peoplethat are just like you, that go
through that and think justlike you, you're probably going
to limit where the lid on yourorganization is going to be set,
that you won't exceed the goalsthat you really could exceed.
Speaker 2 (07:42):
So I mean I would like to dig a little bit into
the story of some follow-upquestions.
But first off, if you could,john, you know regular listeners
will know because of myprofessional background, I don't
know, maybe one of every 10episodes I'm talking to somebody
where this methodology comes up, this term lean, when we're
talking about this style ofimprovement or this management
(08:04):
system, but what would be yourelevator speech version of all
right well?
So, john, what is this leanapproach?
Speaker 1 (08:13):
Well, thanks for asking that, Marcus, because, as
I think about lean and how Ihave learned it, if you will, in
manufacturing and then deployedit in manufacturing as a leader
at that time for me and itstill is today in terms of my
elevator speech and consultingor coaching as well but that it
was the passionate pursuit ofthe elimination of waste.
And you do that throughultimately looking at the
(08:34):
processes that you have,breaking them down into
value-added and non-value-addedtasks, into those tasks that you
really don't need to be doingall the time, but which are
those that you need to repeat ona regular basis and make happen
.
So, as I saw it in a real estatesetting again looking at where
some of the strengths of my teammember was going to be I
(08:54):
thought there was an opportunityto put systems in place and
processes in place that wouldallow us to scale that business
even further, capitalize on therelationship building that my
mother-in-law, nancy, hadalready done, but also to
systematize that, put it intoprocesses, put it into standard
work so that when we had newlistings, we had the same 17
(09:15):
steps for marketing a listingthat went through, or if there
was a buyer that we had, andafter the contract, what are the
23 steps and what order theyhave to be done to get that
contract closed on time.
So it was those processes thatshe may not have had that would
have allowed the business to beable to be scaled more.
And then, secondly, is on theother end or on the very end of
(09:37):
that, is the visual managementof that, the scorecard, the
keeping score and setting goalsfor the organization.
And I saw both of those reallyas an opportunity to succeed in
that real estate space where Isaw that there was a gap in many
of those individuals who werein that business.
Speaker 2 (09:52):
And so the opportunity and this is one of
the challenges of being a coachor a consultant or whatever term
you're using you can see theopportunity for things to be
better.
You can see the gap inperformance.
You can see how a different wayof doing things could help
close that gap in performance.
But then often the personyou're trying to coach might not
see the gap.
(10:13):
They might think theirperformance is fine and that
might be true Performance isfine.
Maybe they don't have the samedesire to try to push it to be
better, like what were some ofthe change dynamics there?
You mentioned earlier thatmaybe it was just some of the
new methods were uncomfortable.
But was there, I wonder, a morefundamental issue of where your
(10:34):
mother-in-law thought well, youknow, business is fine, I
wanted John to help me out, notto reinvent me, or something
like that?
Speaker 1 (10:40):
No, I think you almost answered the question for
me in some of the points thatyou made.
I'll just use a specificexample.
No, no, no, I mean I think it'sjust you hit the nail on the
head with regards to some ofthose.
But a different one or aspecific example I would use and
(11:06):
again, that relates to anybusiness, not just real estate,
or relates to any coachingrelationship, not just with your
mother-in-law but would be thatI set up visual management
inside of the office with,ultimately, the goals for the
month, and I knew we needed acertain number of closings per
month to be successful, which isthe outcome metric.
But I also knew that to do thatwe needed a number of touches
or a number of contacts that wecould have in there to get leads
into the funnel, to make adifference there.
And I started to list thosecontacts up on the wall on
sticky notes and had graphs forour performance in terms of the
(11:28):
monthly numbers that we wouldclose in both transactions, as
well as revenue that would comein.
And it just wasn't somethingthat she was interested in, that
many people aren't interestedin seeing some of the visual
management that occurs.
And again, I think I realizedthat it took a while, after a
while, but it was something thatI was able to capitalize on and
(11:49):
then learn that how do Icontinue to capitalize on her
strengths, which was therelationship building in the
industry as a salesperson andbringing those leads into the
system.
She wasn't necessarily asinterested in taking those leads
all the way through, but youneed all of those different
business types inside of yourbusiness to make things happen.
So it was recognizing that thatultimately led to us having
(12:11):
more success and ultimatelybeing recognized as one of the
top realtor teams in Roanoke inour third year in business,
which was really good.
Speaker 2 (12:20):
That's a really interesting point.
You talk about discovering theopportunity to focus on
strengths instead of problems.
I think, from our professionalbackground as you said earlier
you used the word waste we'refocused on the problem, the
waste, the defect and somepeople.
Depending on how I don't knowtheir experiences or how their
(12:42):
brains work sometimes peoplemight say, well, you're being
too negative by pointing outthese problems, and I think you
raised a good point.
There's room for bothperspectives, I think in a
successful company.
Speaker 1 (12:54):
Absolutely.
One of the authors that I reada good deal about and this is a
leadership author is JohnMaxwell.
John Maxwell and common leaders.
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(13:16):
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(13:38):
Now let's get back to theepisode, the CDs.
I remember listening to hisbefore podcasting was really
cool.
He had the CD club and thentape club before that, but he
talked about the four aptitudesof a leader and that each
organization, each team, neededall four aptitudes.
He talked about strategic as anaptitude.
He talked about operational asan aptitude.
(13:58):
He talked about the visioncasting or directing in the
organization as well.
And then that fourth aptitudebeing the team building type
aptitude as well.
And so again I went in therevery much with an operational
mindset that was going to fixthis visual management, new
processes and things like thatgoing forward.
But the aptitude that I missedwas that team building, that
(14:19):
relationship building my teammember capitalized on and did
really well with, and I gotmyself too focused on the
operational side early on inthat journey.
Speaker 2 (14:28):
And it seems like there is another opportunity for
balance is looking at processversus personalization of
service.
So I've run across this inhealthcare, as I'm sure you have
, john where, like what you weredescribing for real estate, you
could look at a surgicalprocedure and say, well, here
are the 23 things that have tohappen in advance, in this
(14:48):
sequence, to help ensure thatthere are no mix-ups or errors,
and things that should happenafter the surgery.
But you would get pushback ofsomebody saying, well, every
patient is unique.
Well, to an extent that's nottrue, but in some ways it is.
And I think when a lot of timespeople in healthcare hear about
process or standardization, Ihear pushback, boy.
(15:12):
There are a lot of people inthe software world that don't
like the word process, but Ithink they fear like that'll be
taken to an extreme in a waythat would prevent them from
responding appropriately to theneeds of a particular patient
patient.
I would expect there's almost asimilar dynamic, maybe in real
estate, where someone would saylook, every client is unique,
(15:32):
every home sale is unique.
How did you work out thatbalance between process and
personalization?
Speaker 1 (15:37):
No, I think you make a phenomenal point, and
certainly in healthcare it isthere right.
I mean, you have an industrywith highly trained and educated
individuals and you go in thereand ask them to standardize
some of those things.
It becomes hard to convinceothers.
Look, you have someone that'sbeen in real estate for 30 years
and ask them to go in andstandardize some of the things
(15:59):
that they've done.
It's going to be hard to getthem to really buy into that as
well.
Go forward the relationshipcomponent of consulting or
coaching, regardless of theindustry, is that, rather than
trying to drive that visionforward really fast with regards
to implementing new processesor implementing standardization,
(16:20):
as you talked about, but rathergetting those people to buy
into you first whether it's thecustomer or whether it's a team
member that they will buy intoyou as a person, then they'll
learn to trust you more and youhave a better chance of making
that influence again andmodeling to get them to change.
And I do agree that people wouldsay in real estate there are
buyers that are different acrossthe industry and there are
(16:43):
different segments.
No doubt about it.
Just like there are differentelements or specialties in
healthcare, there are differenttypes of buyers in real estate
as well, and you have to beaware of those as an individual
that works in that business andreally change or update your
standard to support therelationship building.
But it doesn't mean that eachtime you sell a house there
(17:04):
still has to be a termiteinspection, there still has to
be a home inspection, therestill has to be a disclosure
statement, there still has to bea loan application.
Generally, all those things needto be done so that you have the
time to be the empatheticdoctor you need to be, or the
empathetic real estate agent orthe empathetic leader you need
to be in organization Leaderstandard work.
(17:25):
I know you've written about itbefore.
What are the things thatleaders need to do on a daily
and weekly and monthly basis tobe successful?
And anytime you talk abouthaving them document their daily
or weekly standard work,there's a sense that they feel
many leaders will feel you'retrying to take away my
creativity when you do that, andit's absolutely not.
I mean, as we go forward, itreally is about standardizing
(17:46):
the things that can bestandardized so that you can be
creative when you need to becreative, absolutely, yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:52):
Yeah, and to what level do we standardize?
I'm just thinking back to a fewyears ago.
My wife and I bought a condoand in Florida we moved there
for her job.
The realtor was great.
This was probably a standardpractice for him.
After we closed and we got toour place and we opened the
refrigerator, there was asurprise.
There was a bottle of champagne, a pretty nice bottle of
(18:14):
champagne, in the refrigeratorand we thought that was a really
nice touch and we really we, we, we happily consumed it.
That was a good fit for us.
But I could see where, if, ifhis thing was, I always give my
homebuyers a bottle of champagne.
There are going to be somehomebuyers, for whatever reason,
don't drink and wouldn'tnecessarily appreciate the
(18:36):
gesture.
So I'd be curious, if I don'tremember, if he learned about
enough about us to understand ifthat would be a nice gesture,
right?
So does he standardize on?
I always give a bottle ofchampagne or I always leave some
nice surprise as a home warminggift.
You can standardize that acouple different ways, right?
Speaker 1 (18:55):
Sure, but to your point, how are you standardizing
the relationship buildingcomponent to determine if they
even drink, right In terms ofthey going forward with that, so
that they, when you give them abottle of alcohol for a gift,
they don't actually get somewhatoffended because you didn't
know that they didn't drink?
So it's, I mean, it can be arisk, no doubt about it, but
(19:16):
ultimately that's where some ofthe after gap analysis comes
into play as well.
Right, you learn through someof the mistakes, unfortunately,
in healthcare, you learn throughmaking mistakes.
You hope that they're notmistakes that result in death,
but they do.
And what is your reflectionprocess, what is your continuous
improvement process that allowsyou to go back and update your
(19:37):
standard, to put a question likethat in place that says I
normally give a gift at the end,just wanted to see if a gift of
alcohol would be something thatwould be something you would
appreciate.
But you would appreciate, butyou're right.
I mean, it's also thatcontinuous improvement loop of
learning that you must do tocontinuously update that
standard.
Speaker 2 (19:58):
Yeah, I like that point you made about having some
steps and being proactive andunderstanding enough about the
person who's buying the home sothat they could learn
proactively, because, let's say,they gave the bottle of
champagne to somebody and theywere upset on some level, but
they didn't say anything.
You don't have that feedback.
That's right.
You don't have the feedbackloop, and so I think there are a
(20:20):
lot of lessons to be learned.
I really like the way you putthat about standardizing some of
the relationship building.
Speaker 1 (20:25):
Well, I think at the end, look that relationship
building is so important on thefront end, the relationship
building, whether it's the,again, the questions that you
ask to learn what the realproblem is or, in the case of
real estate, what their realwant is.
And again, my, my mother-in-lawhad a phenomenal way of getting
someone, getting a buyer in acar, driving them around for an
(20:47):
hour, having them tell her whatthey wanted at the start, and by
the end of that conversationshe actually had really nailed
down exactly what they did want,based on listening to them,
based on asking them questions,where they lived, what age their
kids were, what sports theywere engaged in, all those
different things that wouldallow her to get it ready.
Was it standard for her?
(21:08):
No, would I have tried to getit where she had a sticky note
on the front of her windshieldto get that done?
I might have if I would nothave learned properly and said
no, she just knows how to do it.
Let her get that part done.
Speaker 2 (21:18):
But if she was bringing a young, inexperienced
realtor or agent into thebusiness, then something like
that might have been useful as atraining guide.
Speaker 1 (21:31):
Absolutely, absolutely.
A couple of things that I keepgoing back to as I talk and
listen through, and even inhealthcare, it was Atul
Gawande's checklist manifestoand even the powerful TEDx video
that he's done with regards tostandardization, how he was a
surgeon.
The other thing he did youtouched on this is he brought
someone else in to observe him,what he was doing, to learn and
improve.
(21:51):
So it's not only about how wedo things in a standard way, but
you said that it's the feedbackthat we get as well what did we
do well and what could we dobetter?
To continuously improve.
There's the spirit of lean, ifyou will, again, of continuous
improvement and the humility ofa leader like Atul Gawande
specialist surgeon that he wasthat was always looking to get
(22:12):
better at what he did and hebelieved in checklists.
Speaker 2 (22:14):
So I think yes.
Well, so I think you know myattempt at summarizing some of
what you've said here is thatstandardized doesn't mean
inflexible and standardizeddoesn't mean permanent,
absolutely.
Speaker 1 (22:26):
Yeah, standard work is which is standardized is the
best way.
We know how to do it today.
That's not the best way,necessarily.
We know how to do it tomorrow.
You're exactly right.
Speaker 2 (22:34):
So I want to I mean, before we talk about your
podcast and some of theleadership coaching that you do,
John.
One other question, lookingback for reflection.
You know you talk about being aconsultant, a coach, a
son-in-law.
You're in a position of havingto influence or convince, or you
know like you're in a positionof leading without authority.
When you were a companydivision president, I mean, were
(22:54):
there times where, whether youwere intending to or not, you
could sort of get away withtelling people what to do.
And if you were put back into arole like that today, would you
operate differently based onwhat you've learned being a
coach and consultant?
Speaker 1 (23:08):
Well, I think there's no doubt if I were put back
into an operations role today Iwould behave differently.
Hopefully I've grown in thatyears, again learning from some
of these quote favorite mistakesas I've gone through and even
through learning as a consultantand observing other leaders
through this journey other chiefexecutives and C-suite members,
as well as frontline leaderswho have challenges in making
(23:29):
continuous improvement that I'vemade improvements there.
Going back to the first part ofyour question really about, was
there sort of a belief, if youwill, that I could tell others
what to do with regards topositional leadership, probably
especially early on in myleadership journey.
I don't know that I couldrecall a specific time as I go
through that, but I do knowabsolutely of times where people
(23:52):
would give me feedback if I wasdoing that and how I could make
continuous improvement.
You know we go throughdifferent levels of leadership
Another John Maxwell book thefive levels of leadership and
just because we're given aposition doesn't necessarily
give us the influence we need totake someone where they
wouldn't go on their own.
As a great leader, you get tolevel five leadership in terms
(24:12):
of making a difference andleaving a legacy.
By going through those phasesof the journey.
You start off as the boss, ifyou will, but you have to build
relationships, you have to buildcompetence, you have to build
decision-making capabilitiesthat allow you to earn your way
up on those levels of leadershipand, again, I think, through my
continuous Uncommon Leaders.
(24:32):
Thanks for listening to myconversation with Mark Graven on
his great podcast my FavoriteMistake.
If you enjoyed the conversation, I encourage you to share with
someone else you know who needsto with Mark Graven on his great
podcast my Favorite Mistake.
Hear this message and go aheadand follow Mark and me on social
media.
We're sharing tips all the timefor how you can grow your
leadership and how you can focusthat energy on continuous
(24:53):
improvement on a daily basis,and certainly we get a chance to
share some of our favoritemistakes with you on those
platforms that you get a chanceto learn from as well.
Interesting hearing moreconversations with great leaders
like this.
Check the show notes for a linkto the Uncommon Leader podcast.
I encourage you to subscribe soyou'll get a notification in
your email each week when a newepisode comes out.
(25:14):
Until next time, go and growchampions.
The mistake for me ultimately if you even bring it
up to a higher theme was goinginto a leadership role and
thinking that I could changesomeone else, I could change
their heart, I could changetheir mind.
It just wasn't something that Icould do, but it was something
that we fought our way throughfor a few years, because the
only people who can reallychoose to change and change
their behaviors are thoseindividuals Having the ego to
(00:20):
say, well, you should do thingsthe way I do things, and again,
whether that happened almost 20years ago.
It has really informed who I amas a leader today, as a
consultant in business, thatI've done as a coach and
coaching others.
I believe that many people willappreciate and will honor when
you can be in front of them andlet them know that I made a
(00:42):
mistake and I won't do thatagain.
But I learned from it.
And, to a certain extent, whenyou apologize and you ask for
forgiveness in that space,that's the uncommon.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
Well, hi and welcome to my Favorite Mistake.
I'm Mark Rabin.
Our guest today is JohnGallagher.
He is the founder and CEO ofhis Rowing Champions LLC.
He's a coach and a mentor.
He's worked for a consultingfirm for a decade, after being
an operations manager and adivision president for two
different companies, and John isalso the host of a podcast
(01:24):
called the Uncommon Leader, so Iencourage you to check that out
wherever you're listening tothis podcast.
So, john, thanks for being hereas a guest today.
How are you, mark?
Speaker 1 (01:34):
I'm doing well.
Thanks very much.
I'm looking forward to spendingthe time with you.
I've been listening on a few ofthe past episodes, so this
should be fun.
Speaker 2 (01:41):
And you're like me as a podcast host and I don't
sometimes I put up a Post-itnote to remind myself I'm the
guest, like, so I don't make themistake of.
Speaker 1 (01:50):
Yeah, I mean, I often think about that, just as it is
a little different although youhave many more interviews from
that side of the microphone thanI do and your experience I've
been listening in to learn a lotfrom you, so I don't have quite
as many bad habits to get ridof sitting on this side of being
the guest.
Speaker 2 (02:08):
I'm curious what my bad habits are.
Speaker 1 (02:11):
We all have them.
Speaker 2 (02:12):
We all yes, we all do , and I try to not repeat those
mistakes over and over again,like, for example and I'll try
not to do this to you today,john Sometimes I will
accidentally combine two orthree questions into one, when
maybe I should just parcel themout one at a time, so you can
coach me on that.
We'll see how it goes.
So, john, there's all kinds ofthings we can talk about today,
(02:33):
but we like to dive right in.
Looking back at the differentthings that you've done, what
would you say is your favoritemistake?
Speaker 1 (02:40):
My favorite mistake.
I've had a great time trying tothink through this Favorite
mistake, my favorite mistake.
I've had a great time trying tothink through this and while I
know I have too many probably tochoose from, there is one that
kind of comes to the top thatI've actually used in stories
before and oddly enough, mark, Ihad a Facebook post pop up from
11 years ago when I wrotesomething very similar.
So my favorite mistake has kindof hung along as I went through
(03:01):
.
But as you touched a little biton my career, I had been in
operations where I ran a smallfuel transfer company fuel
transfer pump company in FortWayne, indiana for about five
years and then really made afamily decision to move back to
Roanoke, virginia, where mywife's family was from, and at
the time it was an opportunitythat for me, I was in an
(03:24):
organization that was verysuccessful from a manufacturing
standpoint.
Our results were good andcontinuing to grow, and it was
something that I was prettycomfortable from a business and
career standpoint with the workthat I was in.
But it was clearly a familydecision that we made.
So, while leaving a successfulmanufacturing job as a division
(03:45):
president could be seen as afavorite mistake.
That actually wasn't the onethat I would go forward and talk
to, but what I ended up doingwas coming back and deciding
that I could do some of theskill set that I had in process
improvement continuousimprovement and implement that
from manufacturing into realestate sales.
And my mother-in-law had beenin real estate sales in Roanoke,
virginia, for about 30 yearsand I had this great idea of
(04:09):
teaming up with her to take someof the continuous improvement,
lean methodologies, if you will,into real estate sales and talk
with her about that, and sheseemed to be up for it.
So we teamed up and othersmight say my favorite mistake
would be going into businesswith my mother-in-law, but that
wasn't it as well.
Speaker 2 (04:28):
That could be risky.
That could have been, thatcould definitely be risky.
Speaker 1 (04:32):
Many of the cliches are never do business with
family members and things likethat.
But the fact is, even almost 20years later, we're still on
talking terms and doing reallywell Not in business together
anymore.
We're still on talking terms anddoing really well Not in
business together anymore.
But really the favorite mistakepart of that as I went into
business with her was me havingthe ego of thinking I could
(04:52):
change someone to make them kindof follow the management system
I had learned to adopt to overthe last 15 years.
That was a continuousimprovement methodology and
ultimately what that led to forme in trying to change my
mother-in-law's behaviors wasfrustration for me often and
really frustration for her forme asking her to really behave
(05:16):
or perform from a businessstandpoint in areas where it
just wasn't her strength.
So the mistake for meultimately if you even bring it
up to a higher theme was goinginto a leadership role and
thinking that I could changesomeone else.
I could change their heart, Icould change their mind.
It just wasn't something that Icould do, but it was something
that we fought our way throughfor a few years and actually
(05:37):
generated some success.
But it took me a couple ofyears to learn that in the
journey as well.
Speaker 2 (05:41):
Well, I'm glad, john, that you could resolve to the
point where you're on speakingterms.
Speaker 1 (05:46):
That is important, that is important, especially
with family, because you knowyou get as you say.
You can choose your friends,but you can't choose your family
, that's for sure.
So yeah, we are still familyand we're still in good spirits.
Absolutely Well, good.
Speaker 2 (05:57):
And it seems like you know that general advice
whether you know differentflavors of it of don't go into
business with a relative, don'tgo into business with a good
friend, don't loan money to afamily member, you know, it
seems like you know the risk is,if something goes wrong, now
you really screw up thisrelationship and maybe a lot of
people go into it thinking like,well, yeah, they say don't do
(06:19):
this, but we're going to besuccessful, we'll be different.
We'll be different.
I guess there are alwaysexceptions to the rule, but
sometimes the quote unquote ruleis there for a reason?
Speaker 1 (06:27):
Well, absolutely, and again I don't even know that it
was as much the family as themistake, as it was again me
having the ego to say, well, youshould do things the way I do
things, and coming forward withthat and how it took me a little
while to learn and really adaptand adopt to that.
And again, whether that happened50, almost 20 years ago, it has
really informed who I am as aas a leader today, as a
(06:49):
consultant in business, thatI've done as a coach and
coaching others, because theonly people who can really
choose to change and changetheir behaviors are those
individuals and all I can reallydo is model and and ultimately
see what others will see in thework that I do, that they'll
want to do that as well.
But I had to learn to adjust tothat and there were probably
(07:10):
things that slowed us down as aresult of that favorite mistake,
especially again asking her orasking any individual to work in
an area that might be outsideof their strength zone, sort of
outside, and it can be in alearning zone from a comfort
zone standpoint, but ultimatelyin organizations it takes a lot
of different aptitudes in termsof the business to make it
successful.
(07:31):
And if you have too many peoplethat are just like you, that go
through that and think justlike you, you're probably going
to limit where the lid on yourorganization is going to be set,
that you won't exceed the goalsthat you really could exceed.
Speaker 2 (07:42):
So I mean I would like to dig a little bit into
the story of some follow-upquestions.
But first off, if you could,john, you know regular listeners
will know because of myprofessional background, I don't
know, maybe one of every 10episodes I'm talking to somebody
where this methodology comes up, this term lean, when we're
talking about this style ofimprovement or this management
(08:04):
system, but what would be yourelevator speech version of all
right well?
So, john, what is this leanapproach?
Speaker 1 (08:13):
Well, thanks for asking that, Marcus, because, as
I think about lean and how Ihave learned it, if you will, in
manufacturing and then deployedit in manufacturing as a leader
at that time for me and itstill is today in terms of my
elevator speech and consultingor coaching as well but that it
was the passionate pursuit ofthe elimination of waste.
And you do that throughultimately looking at the
(08:34):
processes that you have,breaking them down into
value-added and non-value-addedtasks, into those tasks that you
really don't need to be doingall the time, but which are
those that you need to repeat ona regular basis and make happen
.
So, as I saw it in a real estatesetting again looking at where
some of the strengths of my teammember was going to be I
(08:54):
thought there was an opportunityto put systems in place and
processes in place that wouldallow us to scale that business
even further, capitalize on therelationship building that my
mother-in-law, nancy, hadalready done, but also to
systematize that, put it intoprocesses, put it into standard
work so that when we had newlistings, we had the same 17
(09:15):
steps for marketing a listingthat went through, or if there
was a buyer that we had, andafter the contract, what are the
23 steps and what order theyhave to be done to get that
contract closed on time.
So it was those processes thatshe may not have had that would
have allowed the business to beable to be scaled more.
And then, secondly, is on theother end or on the very end of
(09:37):
that, is the visual managementof that, the scorecard, the
keeping score and setting goalsfor the organization.
And I saw both of those reallyas an opportunity to succeed in
that real estate space where Isaw that there was a gap in many
of those individuals who werein that business.
Speaker 2 (09:52):
And so the opportunity and this is one of
the challenges of being a coachor a consultant or whatever term
you're using you can see theopportunity for things to be
better.
You can see the gap inperformance.
You can see how a different wayof doing things could help
close that gap in performance.
But then often the personyou're trying to coach might not
see the gap.
(10:13):
They might think theirperformance is fine and that
might be true Performance isfine.
Maybe they don't have the samedesire to try to push it to be
better, like what were some ofthe change dynamics there?
You mentioned earlier thatmaybe it was just some of the
new methods were uncomfortable.
But was there, I wonder, a morefundamental issue of where your
(10:34):
mother-in-law thought well, youknow, business is fine, I
wanted John to help me out, notto reinvent me, or something
like that?
Speaker 1 (10:40):
No, I think you almost answered the question for
me in some of the points thatyou made.
I'll just use a specificexample.
No, no, no, I mean I think it'sjust you hit the nail on the
head with regards to some ofthose.
But a different one or aspecific example I would use and
(11:06):
again, that relates to anybusiness, not just real estate,
or relates to any coachingrelationship, not just with your
mother-in-law but would be thatI set up visual management
inside of the office with,ultimately, the goals for the
month, and I knew we needed acertain number of closings per
month to be successful, which isthe outcome metric.
But I also knew that to do thatwe needed a number of touches
or a number of contacts that wecould have in there to get leads
into the funnel, to make adifference there.
And I started to list thosecontacts up on the wall on
sticky notes and had graphs forour performance in terms of the
(11:28):
monthly numbers that we wouldclose in both transactions, as
well as revenue that would comein.
And it just wasn't somethingthat she was interested in, that
many people aren't interestedin seeing some of the visual
management that occurs.
And again, I think I realizedthat it took a while, after a
while, but it was something thatI was able to capitalize on and
(11:49):
then learn that how do Icontinue to capitalize on her
strengths, which was therelationship building in the
industry as a salesperson andbringing those leads into the
system.
She wasn't necessarily asinterested in taking those leads
all the way through, but youneed all of those different
business types inside of yourbusiness to make things happen.
So it was recognizing that thatultimately led to us having
(12:11):
more success and ultimatelybeing recognized as one of the
top realtor teams in Roanoke inour third year in business,
which was really good.
Speaker 2 (12:20):
That's a really interesting point.
You talk about discovering theopportunity to focus on
strengths instead of problems.
I think, from our professionalbackground as you said earlier
you used the word waste we'refocused on the problem, the
waste, the defect and somepeople.
Depending on how I don't knowtheir experiences or how their
(12:42):
brains work sometimes peoplemight say, well, you're being
too negative by pointing outthese problems, and I think you
raised a good point.
There's room for bothperspectives, I think in a
successful company.
Speaker 1 (12:54):
Absolutely.
One of the authors that I reada good deal about and this is a
leadership author is JohnMaxwell.
John Maxwell and common leaders.
Hope you're enjoying theepisode.
So far.
I believe in doing business withpeople you like and trust, and
not just a company name.
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(13:16):
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(13:38):
Now let's get back to theepisode, the CDs.
I remember listening to hisbefore podcasting was really
cool.
He had the CD club and thentape club before that, but he
talked about the four aptitudesof a leader and that each
organization, each team, neededall four aptitudes.
He talked about strategic as anaptitude.
He talked about operational asan aptitude.
(13:58):
He talked about the visioncasting or directing in the
organization as well.
And then that fourth aptitudebeing the team building type
aptitude as well.
And so again I went in therevery much with an operational
mindset that was going to fixthis visual management, new
processes and things like thatgoing forward.
But the aptitude that I missedwas that team building, that
(14:19):
relationship building my teammember capitalized on and did
really well with, and I gotmyself too focused on the
operational side early on inthat journey.
Speaker 2 (14:28):
And it seems like there is another opportunity for
balance is looking at processversus personalization of
service.
So I've run across this inhealthcare, as I'm sure you have
, john where, like what you weredescribing for real estate, you
could look at a surgicalprocedure and say, well, here
are the 23 things that have tohappen in advance, in this
(14:48):
sequence, to help ensure thatthere are no mix-ups or errors,
and things that should happenafter the surgery.
But you would get pushback ofsomebody saying, well, every
patient is unique.
Well, to an extent that's nottrue, but in some ways it is.
And I think when a lot of timespeople in healthcare hear about
process or standardization, Ihear pushback, boy.
(15:12):
There are a lot of people inthe software world that don't
like the word process, but Ithink they fear like that'll be
taken to an extreme in a waythat would prevent them from
responding appropriately to theneeds of a particular patient
patient.
I would expect there's almost asimilar dynamic, maybe in real
estate, where someone would saylook, every client is unique,
(15:32):
every home sale is unique.
How did you work out thatbalance between process and
personalization?
Speaker 1 (15:37):
No, I think you make a phenomenal point, and
certainly in healthcare it isthere right.
I mean, you have an industrywith highly trained and educated
individuals and you go in thereand ask them to standardize
some of those things.
It becomes hard to convinceothers.
Look, you have someone that'sbeen in real estate for 30 years
and ask them to go in andstandardize some of the things
(15:59):
that they've done.
It's going to be hard to getthem to really buy into that as
well.
Go forward the relationshipcomponent of consulting or
coaching, regardless of theindustry, is that, rather than
trying to drive that visionforward really fast with regards
to implementing new processesor implementing standardization,
(16:20):
as you talked about, but rathergetting those people to buy
into you first whether it's thecustomer or whether it's a team
member that they will buy intoyou as a person, then they'll
learn to trust you more and youhave a better chance of making
that influence again andmodeling to get them to change.
And I do agree that people wouldsay in real estate there are
buyers that are different acrossthe industry and there are
(16:43):
different segments.
No doubt about it.
Just like there are differentelements or specialties in
healthcare, there are differenttypes of buyers in real estate
as well, and you have to beaware of those as an individual
that works in that business andreally change or update your
standard to support therelationship building.
But it doesn't mean that eachtime you sell a house there
(17:04):
still has to be a termiteinspection, there still has to
be a home inspection, therestill has to be a disclosure
statement, there still has to bea loan application.
Generally, all those things needto be done so that you have the
time to be the empatheticdoctor you need to be, or the
empathetic real estate agent orthe empathetic leader you need
to be in organization Leaderstandard work.
(17:25):
I know you've written about itbefore.
What are the things thatleaders need to do on a daily
and weekly and monthly basis tobe successful?
And anytime you talk abouthaving them document their daily
or weekly standard work,there's a sense that they feel
many leaders will feel you'retrying to take away my
creativity when you do that, andit's absolutely not.
I mean, as we go forward, itreally is about standardizing
(17:46):
the things that can bestandardized so that you can be
creative when you need to becreative, absolutely, yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:52):
Yeah, and to what level do we standardize?
I'm just thinking back to a fewyears ago.
My wife and I bought a condoand in Florida we moved there
for her job.
The realtor was great.
This was probably a standardpractice for him.
After we closed and we got toour place and we opened the
refrigerator, there was asurprise.
There was a bottle of champagne, a pretty nice bottle of
(18:14):
champagne, in the refrigeratorand we thought that was a really
nice touch and we really we, we, we happily consumed it.
That was a good fit for us.
But I could see where, if, ifhis thing was, I always give my
homebuyers a bottle of champagne.
There are going to be somehomebuyers, for whatever reason,
don't drink and wouldn'tnecessarily appreciate the
(18:36):
gesture.
So I'd be curious, if I don'tremember, if he learned about
enough about us to understand ifthat would be a nice gesture,
right?
So does he standardize on?
I always give a bottle ofchampagne or I always leave some
nice surprise as a home warminggift.
You can standardize that acouple different ways, right?
Speaker 1 (18:55):
Sure, but to your point, how are you standardizing
the relationship buildingcomponent to determine if they
even drink, right In terms ofthey going forward with that, so
that they, when you give them abottle of alcohol for a gift,
they don't actually get somewhatoffended because you didn't
know that they didn't drink?
So it's, I mean, it can be arisk, no doubt about it, but
(19:16):
ultimately that's where some ofthe after gap analysis comes
into play as well.
Right, you learn through someof the mistakes, unfortunately,
in healthcare, you learn throughmaking mistakes.
You hope that they're notmistakes that result in death,
but they do.
And what is your reflectionprocess, what is your continuous
improvement process that allowsyou to go back and update your
(19:37):
standard, to put a question likethat in place that says I
normally give a gift at the end,just wanted to see if a gift of
alcohol would be something thatwould be something you would
appreciate.
But you would appreciate, butyou're right.
I mean, it's also thatcontinuous improvement loop of
learning that you must do tocontinuously update that
standard.
Speaker 2 (19:58):
Yeah, I like that point you made about having some
steps and being proactive andunderstanding enough about the
person who's buying the home sothat they could learn
proactively, because, let's say,they gave the bottle of
champagne to somebody and theywere upset on some level, but
they didn't say anything.
You don't have that feedback.
That's right.
You don't have the feedbackloop, and so I think there are a
(20:20):
lot of lessons to be learned.
I really like the way you putthat about standardizing some of
the relationship building.
Speaker 1 (20:25):
Well, I think at the end, look that relationship
building is so important on thefront end, the relationship
building, whether it's the,again, the questions that you
ask to learn what the realproblem is or, in the case of
real estate, what their realwant is.
And again, my, my mother-in-lawhad a phenomenal way of getting
someone, getting a buyer in acar, driving them around for an
(20:47):
hour, having them tell her whatthey wanted at the start, and by
the end of that conversationshe actually had really nailed
down exactly what they did want,based on listening to them,
based on asking them questions,where they lived, what age their
kids were, what sports theywere engaged in, all those
different things that wouldallow her to get it ready.
Was it standard for her?
(21:08):
No, would I have tried to getit where she had a sticky note
on the front of her windshieldto get that done?
I might have if I would nothave learned properly and said
no, she just knows how to do it.
Let her get that part done.
Speaker 2 (21:18):
But if she was bringing a young, inexperienced
realtor or agent into thebusiness, then something like
that might have been useful as atraining guide.
Speaker 1 (21:31):
Absolutely, absolutely.
A couple of things that I keepgoing back to as I talk and
listen through, and even inhealthcare, it was Atul
Gawande's checklist manifestoand even the powerful TEDx video
that he's done with regards tostandardization, how he was a
surgeon.
The other thing he did youtouched on this is he brought
someone else in to observe him,what he was doing, to learn and
improve.
(21:51):
So it's not only about how wedo things in a standard way, but
you said that it's the feedbackthat we get as well what did we
do well and what could we dobetter?
To continuously improve.
There's the spirit of lean, ifyou will, again, of continuous
improvement and the humility ofa leader like Atul Gawande
specialist surgeon that he wasthat was always looking to get
(22:12):
better at what he did and hebelieved in checklists.
Speaker 2 (22:14):
So I think yes.
Well, so I think you know myattempt at summarizing some of
what you've said here is thatstandardized doesn't mean
inflexible and standardizeddoesn't mean permanent,
absolutely.
Speaker 1 (22:26):
Yeah, standard work is which is standardized is the
best way.
We know how to do it today.
That's not the best way,necessarily.
We know how to do it tomorrow.
You're exactly right.
Speaker 2 (22:34):
So I want to I mean, before we talk about your
podcast and some of theleadership coaching that you do,
John.
One other question, lookingback for reflection.
You know you talk about being aconsultant, a coach, a
son-in-law.
You're in a position of havingto influence or convince, or you
know like you're in a positionof leading without authority.
When you were a companydivision president, I mean, were
(22:54):
there times where, whether youwere intending to or not, you
could sort of get away withtelling people what to do.
And if you were put back into arole like that today, would you
operate differently based onwhat you've learned being a
coach and consultant?
Speaker 1 (23:08):
Well, I think there's no doubt if I were put back
into an operations role today Iwould behave differently.
Hopefully I've grown in thatyears, again learning from some
of these quote favorite mistakesas I've gone through and even
through learning as a consultantand observing other leaders
through this journey other chiefexecutives and C-suite members,
as well as frontline leaderswho have challenges in making
(23:29):
continuous improvement that I'vemade improvements there.
Going back to the first part ofyour question really about, was
there sort of a belief, if youwill, that I could tell others
what to do with regards topositional leadership, probably
especially early on in myleadership journey.
I don't know that I couldrecall a specific time as I go
through that, but I do knowabsolutely of times where people
(23:52):
would give me feedback if I wasdoing that and how I could make
continuous improvement.
You know we go throughdifferent levels of leadership
Another John Maxwell book thefive levels of leadership and
just because we're given aposition doesn't necessarily
give us the influence we need totake someone where they
wouldn't go on their own.
As a great leader, you get tolevel five leadership in terms
(24:12):
of making a difference andleaving a legacy.
By going through those phasesof the journey.
You start off as the boss, ifyou will, but you have to build
relationships, you have to buildcompetence, you have to build
decision-making capabilitiesthat allow you to earn your way
up on those levels of leadershipand, again, I think, through my
continuous Uncommon Leaders.
(24:32):
Thanks for listening to myconversation with Mark Graven on
his great podcast my FavoriteMistake.
If you enjoyed the conversation, I encourage you to share with
someone else you know who needsto with Mark Graven on his great
podcast my Favorite Mistake.
Hear this message and go aheadand follow Mark and me on social
media.
We're sharing tips all the timefor how you can grow your
leadership and how you can focusthat energy on continuous
(24:53):
improvement on a daily basis,and certainly we get a chance to
share some of our favoritemistakes with you on those
platforms that you get a chanceto learn from as well.
Interesting hearing moreconversations with great leaders
like this.
Check the show notes for a linkto the Uncommon Leader podcast.
I encourage you to subscribe soyou'll get a notification in
your email each week when a newepisode comes out.
(25:14):
Until next time, go and growchampions.
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