April 22, 2025 • 33 mins
Rich Sanders brings a remarkably unique perspective to the Uncommon Leader Podcast as both a pastor and successful entrepreneur. With his powerful motto—"The more we make, the more we give"—Sanders tackles the perceived tension between Christian values and business success, offering a refreshing framework that celebrates both hard work and generous giving as expressions of faith.
Throughout our conversation, Sanders draws from his experience as a military veteran, business owner, and spiritual leader to illuminate how capitalism and Christianity can not only coexist but thrive together when properly aligned. He introduces the concept of "philanthropic capitalism" but takes it deeper, arguing that without genuine love for others, corporate giving risks becoming just another marketing strategy.
One of the most memorable moments comes when Sanders shares a profound encounter with a homeless man who, despite having nothing by conventional standards, demonstrated extraordinary spiritual wealth through his complete trust in God's provision. This story challenges listeners to reconsider what true abundance really means in both business and life.
For Christian business leaders navigating workplace dynamics, Sanders offers practical wisdom on leading by example rather than overt evangelism. "People will know you by your love," he explains, suggesting that authentic faith naturally shines through our actions, decisions, and treatment of others without requiring explicit religious language.
Sanders also introduces his nonprofit initiative, Koinonia Mission, created to help Christians serve their communities outside traditional church frameworks. This project reflects his commitment to making faith-based service accessible to everyone, regardless of their relationship with organized religion.
Whether you're a business professional seeking to integrate your faith more authentically in your work or simply curious about the intersection of spiritual and financial success, this conversation offers thoughtful insights on building a purposeful career that honors both profit and people. How might your business decisions change if you approached them through the lens of "the more we make, the more we give"?
Connect with Rick: https://christiancapitalist.life/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Whether it's an uncommon leader in business or
an uncommon leader in themilitary, it's a core concept
nonetheless and that's lead byexample.
So one of the ways that you cancome to take your faith to work
is by showing people you're aChristian, without ever
mentioning the word Christ orChristian or church.
People will know it.
There's a great hymn out therefrom the old days called but
(00:20):
they will know us by our love.
Right, and people will know youby your love.
I like to say in ourcongregation people can see the
light of Christ in your heart ifyou just let it shine.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
Hey, uncommon Leaders , welcome back.
This is the Uncommon LeaderPodcast and I'm your host, john
Gallagher.
I've got a great guest for youtoday.
Let me kind of go down throughthis list for a minute.
So I've had pastors on thepodcast before.
I've had military officers onthe podcast before.
I've had business owners on thepodcast before.
I've had best-selling authorson the podcast before.
(00:58):
I don't know if I've had anyoneon the podcast that can claim
all four of those titles, if youwill.
But I'm pretty excited today tointroduce you all to Rich
Sanders, the author of theChristian Capitalist.
Rich, welcome to the UncommonLeader podcast.
How are you doing today?
Speaker 1 (01:14):
I'm doing great, John .
Thank you so much for having meon the show today.
I'm delighted to be here.
Speaker 2 (01:19):
Well, I know we're going to get a chance to talk
about your book and that'sreally what it's all about, and
I'm excited to dive into thatand learn a little bit more
about you.
But before I do that, I'll giveyou the same first question I
give all my first-time guests,and that's to tell me a story
from your childhood that stillimpacts who you are today, as a
leader or as a person.
Speaker 1 (01:39):
John, thank you.
First of all, thank you forinviting me.
I'm so glad to be here and Iappreciate you asking that
question.
I just had a phone call earlierthis morning where a young
woman who's a sophomore incollege was talking about how we
are, who we meet, and we arethe sum of our experiences.
So I think that's a great kickcareer officer in the Air Force
(02:03):
and the first place that ourmost memorable place that we
lived in the time that he was inthe Air Force, which started
before I was born, was in Italy.
So one of the ways that when wewere stationed in Italy and I
was a young guy, 10 years old,one of the ways that we used to
(02:24):
kind of occupy our time wasplayground, you know, football,
baseball, basketball, whatever,just like normal kids, even back
in the United States only we'reat a military base in Southern
Italy on the heel of the boot.
But the memory that sticks withme, and part of what I try and
bring to the table as a pastor,is how much fun it was when we
would have Bible study.
(02:45):
So this is an airman who'smaybe 19, 20 years old and he
was leading fifth grade Biblestudy.
So it was 10 boys and him.
We would go to the church, wewould have a conversation about
whatever it was, then we'd goplay football, and so I hang on
to that, because so many peoplethink of church as overbearing.
It's stained glass, it's organs, it's very formal, it's pent up
(03:08):
.
We've been to churches beforewhere when the kids sing they
don't even clap.
But what stuck with me fromthat is that church can be fun
and talking about Jesus kind offits into what you already do,
just like I would normally playfootball seven days a week.
But on that day it was rightafter we had studied scripture,
and it stuck with me that youcan have fun and integrate the
(03:29):
gospel into your everyday life.
Speaker 2 (03:31):
Love that and I hadn't thought about that in a
long time.
You know and I know that youtold me this before we hit the
record button today that you'reout in Phoenix, arizona or in
Tempe, arizona to watch your sonplay baseball.
So sports have stayed animportant part, uh, and clearly
you're pretty good at it.
So that's, that's somethingfrom an athletic standpoint.
If you've got a son that playsfor the Cubs, I think that's
awesome.
Uh, I I haven't had a lot tocheer about in baseball for the
(03:55):
last 30 years, being a piratefan growing up.
So that just is what it is withthe Cubs and they're they take
their baseball really seriousout there in Arizona, even for
spring training.
Speaker 1 (04:05):
Just a real quick note about that.
That's right, we are in Phoenixfor spring training.
Our son is in the minor leagueswith the Cubs, but the Pirates
have somebody to cheer for.
Paul Skeens went to LSU and ourson went to South Carolina, so
we have been in games whereSkeens has pitched before and
he's gotten a great start in thepros with the Pirates Rookie of
the year and starting theAll-Star game.
(04:27):
There's hope for Pirates fans.
Speaker 2 (04:29):
I love that we always have that hope.
Then eventually they trade himaway to the Yankees or to the
Cubs or to the Dodgers, whoeverit is.
We tend to be that great farmsystem that lives year-round.
Either way, skeens has beenphenomenal and fun to watch.
You're exactly right.
He's given us Pirate fanssomething to talk about, and I
think he's going to be evenbetter this year, as long as he
(04:53):
can stay healthy.
So we could talk baseballprobably all the way through.
But we're here to talk aboutyour book, the Christian
Capitalist, the Gospel of HardWork and Generous Giving.
So as I kind of read throughand not the entire book, but a
significant part of the bookthere was a picture that came to
my mind and it talked about thetension between gaining wealth
and our giving health asindividuals, as leaders, and not
(05:14):
just in the business owner side.
But there was a word that youused in the back of the book
that I just want to jump intoright off the bat, and that's
philanthropic capitalism, and Idon't know if you made that word
up or whatever it is, but whatis philanthropic capitalism?
Speaker 1 (05:27):
Yeah, that's a great question.
So philanthropic capitalism, Ithought was going to be more of
a popularized term by now.
I did not create it, I found itin a series of articles from
about 15 years ago.
But basically, for yourlisteners, who are uncommon
leaders, they are probablyfamiliar with consumer products
(05:47):
of one sort or another, whetherit's apparel, whether it's
consumer items in the grocerystore.
This is an increasingphenomenon, where businesses
commit to a certain amount ofprofit for charitable use.
There are some companies outthere that say, hey, for every
couple of shoes we sell, we giveone to charity.
There's a company out therethat says we dedicate a certain
(06:11):
amount to charity of our profits.
There are certain companies,like grocery stores, that say
here's the community impact wemake with the funds that you
give us when you come and shopin our stores.
All of those are examples ofphilanthropic capitalism.
The reason I mention it in thebook, though, is that we find,
(06:31):
in the world of the Christiancapitalist, we find that
philanthropic capitalism lacksone important thing, and it is
the foundation of our religion,and that is love.
Philanthropic capitalism withoutlove is love, is, in many ways,
pr and marketing right.
Hey, look how good we are, lookhow we're supporting the
community, but if you do it onlyfor the purpose of making
(06:52):
yourself look better and again,this is a trend that's really
come on in the last 15 or 20years there are companies want
to show community impact, wantto show positive impact on the
community, and that's all good,but when it comes down to it you
and I were talking about this alittle bit before the podcast
started when it comes down to it, even when you're speaking on
behalf of an organization andmany of the leaders who are
(07:14):
listening to your podcast todayare they've got a company 50,
100, 500, 5,000.
But it all comes down to yourindividual relationship with God
.
And if you, as the leader, arecreating the culture of your
community that has thisphilanthropy, capitalism
component, that's all well andgood, but without love, it seems
hollow.
So so that's why we mentionedin the book.
(07:36):
It's a great step in the rightdirection.
I certainly want to encourageall the uncommon leaders who are
listening today to keep doingit.
But without that love ofneighbor component, it seems
from my, as you mentioned, veryparticular lens as entrepreneur,
author, veteran and pastor itseems a little hollow without
that love of neighbor.
Speaker 2 (07:55):
Rich.
I love that and, again, you andI chatted offline right before
that.
I just got the chance over thepast couple of days to spend
really two days with a group ofChristian business leaders
talking about that very specifictopic and what I kind of refer
to it as moving from keyperformance indicators like
revenue and profit and marginand customer service, which are
all very important to thesuccess I know you talk about
(08:18):
this in your book as well tokingdom performance indicators
and the impact we're having onour employees, our communities
in the local church and, frankly, all the way out through the
world.
And that's where that tensionexists Without love, in that
there's oftentimes a I'll usethis term as strong to be a fear
(08:39):
of communicating that as well.
So, in the biblical side, don'tlet the left hand know what the
right hand is doing in terms ofgiving and don't be a braggart
about that.
But if we don't measure kingdomimpact, how are we going to
achieve kingdom impact?
So you have to have a way tomeasure that.
You talk about that one pair ofsocks for Bomba for everyone
they sell, they give one away.
(08:59):
Or organizations that givemoney for digging wells in
communities that don't haveclean drinking water, so many
different things that are havingkingdom impact that I believe,
because of that tension thatexists that they're afraid to
talk about it is that we don'thear those stories and then more
of those stories don't comeabout.
So I'm so glad your book talksabout some of those stories and
(09:20):
you share so many differentscriptural references as well as
to what that means inside of usas Christians to give and how
important it is.
Speaker 1 (09:30):
What's hard, john?
There is a lot of tension in it.
I mean, listen, one of thereasons I wrote this book is
that when my job in theEpiscopal Church, in our liturgy
, my job, is to read the gospel,we have lay readers who read
the other parts of thescriptures for a particular
service.
But in the gospel, when I havein my congregation folks who are
(09:51):
wealth advisors or CPAs orfinancial advisors, folks who
are wealthy by making otherpeople wealthy, and I read the
gospel that says Jesus told usthat it's easier for a camel to
get through the eye of a needlethan a rich man to get into
heaven.
Or when he tells the rich youngruler hey, listen, there's only
one other thing you need to doto inherit the kingdom, and
(10:13):
that's sell everything you haveand give it to the poor, and the
rich man goes away sad becausehe has many things.
I can see the look on the facesof the members of my
congregation, and so the book istrying to help us wrestle with
those tensions.
They're all throughout thescripture and they're all
throughout daily life.
Speaker 2 (10:30):
Love that, so let's jump right there.
And it's one thing that we wantto name the title Christian
Capitalist.
What does it mean to you, then,to be a Christian Capitalist?
Speaker 1 (10:38):
Oh, I'm so glad you asked.
It means that, and this is whyit's the subtitle.
It means that, and this is whyit's the subtitle it means that
we work hard and give generouslyto the poor and needy, in the
name of Jesus Christ.
And, in fact, if there's onething that if your listeners
take away from today, I wouldlike them to remember that the
motto of the Christiancapitalist is the more we make,
the more we give.
Profit on its own is, and theaccumulation of profit for no
(11:00):
other purpose is simply anotherway of expressing greed right
for no other purpose is simplyanother way of expressing greed
right.
But accumulation of profit tothen benefit your neighbor, your
poor and needy neighbor inparticular, to love them, is
exactly what God had in mind forus when he sent us Jesus to say
here's what you need to do LoveGod above all else.
Love your neighbor, as I haveloved you.
Well, if you're a rich guy andyou're surrounded by poor people
(11:22):
and you don't give to them, oryou're a rich guy and you're
surrounded by poor people andyou don't give to them, or
you're a rich woman and you haveall these, you know, have all
these material possessions, butsee people laying in the street
without clothing or food orshelter.
That's.
Speaker 2 (11:35):
you're missing the concept no-transcript the money
(12:07):
to be able to carry out themission.
And so, as a Christiancapitalist, we've got to be to
bear fruit back into the Bibleagain, to bear fruit in the work
that we do so that we can helpothers and both prosper
ourselves but also help others.
Name Jesus, and again, love isone of those perfect words that
can be done.
Speaker 1 (12:26):
I agree with the nun who told you that so many years
ago, before you know, as abusiness owner, you've got to
have the ability, as youmentioned earlier.
It's an important word.
You've got to havesustainability.
But once you have your house inorder whether it's your
individual house or yourcorporate house once you have
your house in order, then thequestion is what do we want to
(12:47):
do with it?
Earlier this morning I spokewith a young woman.
We're interviewing her to be anintern for our Christian
Capitalist Project this summerand she's a sophomore in college
, so maybe 19, maybe 20 yearsold.
Pretty wise coming from aperson of this age.
She said I really love whatyou're doing because one day I
(13:07):
want to own my own business andI want to make enough money to
start a nonprofit.
Isn't that wonderful.
Someone can.
As a business owner, someonecan have that kind of vision
even at that young age.
Someone can have that kind ofvision even at that young age.
There's a business incubator.
You probably saw on my bio.
I taught healthcare law at EmoryUniversity for 20 years and so
(13:29):
I had a new group of studentscome through every year and I
just loved working with themAlong the way.
Emory set up a businessincubator to help kids, students
, get their business kind ofproposals in mind and really
launch things.
I had a great discussion withthe executive director there a
couple of years ago and I don'tthink this is specific to Emory.
I think this is specific tothis next generation behind you
(13:51):
and me.
I said I'm just thrilled,executive director, that this
place is full.
All these people are cominghere to learn how to start
businesses and it's just, it'sfantastic for capitalism, right?
I'm an ardent stride andsupporter of free enterprise.
He's like, yeah, but it'sinteresting, nine out of 10 are
here to start some kind ofsocial impact nonprofit.
(14:12):
Isn't that interesting?
Yes, so I think this gets backto kind of one of the core
concepts of the Christiancapitalist.
We are made in God's image.
God made us in his image duringthe creation and we know a
couple of things about God.
The first is he worked veryhard, right, he built the entire
universe and earth in six daysand he built us, and that he
(14:34):
gives so hard work and generousgiving are part of who we are as
humans.
You know we're unique among allthe animals in creation and so
that notion of wanting to starta business purely for the
purpose of benefiting others iswonderful, but, like you said,
no profit, no mission.
Right, they got to cometogether.
Speaker 2 (14:55):
Hey listeners, I want to take a quick moment to share
something special with you.
Many of the topics anddiscussions we have on this
podcast are areas where Iprovide coaching and consulting
services for individuals andorganizations.
If you've been inspired by ourconversation and are seeking a
catalyst for change in your ownlife or within your team, I
invite you to visitcoachjohngallaghercom forward
(15:16):
slash free call to sign up for afree coaching call with me.
It's an opportunity for us toconnect, discuss your unique
challenges and explore howcoaching or consulting can
benefit you and your team.
Okay, let's get back to theshow.
So I mean again, as you say,that I try not to think of the
next one, but it's so criticalthat generation is coming up and
(15:39):
they've got.
I don't know which gen they are, it doesn't matter but, as you
said, the generation behind us.
I can't keep track of all theYs and Zs and whatever they are,
but they have a desire to giveback, they have a real passion
for social responsibility andyet sometimes what's missed is
that importance.
On the side of if there's nomoney, we have to teach them to
(16:02):
run those nonprofits.
We teach them to run thosechurches.
By the way, this is coming froma guy with business, like a
business Right, okay, that ifyou want that to be sustainable,
if you want it to have thekingdom in back that you really
have, then you need to utilizesome fundamental business
principles that are there.
So I think that's one of thebarriers that exists in that
(16:24):
space is to make sure they'relearning that as well.
They get the liberal arts sideof the work that they want to do
and have an impact and theymiss the business side of.
Well, how do I make sure I'msolvent and can make that happen
?
You know another side of thatis Christian.
What are some of the other?
Again another title that Imissed when you just told me, as
a professor, but as a pastorand as a business owner, and so
(16:47):
then you're meeting with yourcongregation well, the people in
your congregation, what aresome of the other misconceptions
or barriers that they run intoabout the relationship between
Christianity and capitalism?
Speaker 1 (16:58):
It was a great question, I'll tell you.
Getting back to the questionyou asked me earlier about
philanthropic capitalism, youknow, in talking either as a
lawyer or as a professor andtalking with folks who want to
start a business, the firstquestion I always ask is what is
the mission?
You know, what are you startingthis business for?
There's a great book out therecalled Start With why, right?
(17:19):
So what are you trying to do?
And the short answer is ifyou're starting a nonprofit and
you want to have some kind ofcharitable effort, or if you're
starting a business, either way,they have to be sustainable.
The question is does oneultimately have no profit, so
there are no shareholders togive a dividend to?
Or do you have shareholders butstill then offer that benefit
(17:42):
to your neighbors?
Our concept as the Christiancapitalist is that you can do
both.
It is easy, starting withpeople who have committed their
lives to God, who have said Iwant to give up everything I
have to God and serve only him,and I'm going to enter a
religious order and become a nun, just like that woman at the
hospital that you worked withback in Chicago, right?
(18:04):
But?
But you can have the same levelof commitment to God as a small
business owner or an executivein business.
It's just a different way toworship and it's a different way
to glorify him, and so that'sone of the biggest
misconceptions, you know.
We start with this concept ofwell, I can only worship and
glorify God if I fully commit tothe church, if I fully commit
(18:26):
to religion, if I become a nunor a monk or, you know, pastor
or priest.
Otherwise, I'm just a businessperson and the best I can do is
put something in the plate whenit comes by or, these days, make
my electronic contribution.
And I just, I really want todiscourage folks from that kind
of mindset.
When we work, we glorify God,and when we give, we glorify God
(18:47):
.
And that includes smallbusiness owners, like you just
met with with your conference.
That includes your listeners.
Everybody can have the samekind of role of of serving and
glorifying him, regardless ofwhat kind of business they have,
as long as they're helpingothers through that business.
And that can be after a verysuccessful year or a very
(19:08):
successful string of years wherefolks are putting money in
their 401ks, whether they'rebuying a new house or buying a
new car or saving for theirkid's college.
All of those things areconsistent with being a good
Christian, as long as the endresult is your love and your
neighbor.
John Wesley I had a great way ofputting this because, again,
(19:29):
you and I, one of the wordswe've been talking about a lot
today is tension.
There is some tension in themessage here.
And Wesley, back in 1750, john,I mean, so this is not a new
concept, but he had a great wayof describing it in three kind
of instructions to hiscongregation.
In his sermon on money, he saidearn all you can.
Now, that's, that's fantastic.
(19:50):
Right, that's like straight outof wall street.
You and I are guys from the 80s.
Right, that's, that's gordongecko.
Talk, go, earn all you can.
But then he throws everybody apause and and the modern word we
would say is sustainability,right, earn all you can, but
then save all you can.
Be a good steward of everythingthat you earn, and to me, for
your listeners, that means getout of right.
(20:11):
I'm starting to sound a littlelike Dave Ramsey now, but I'm
not.
I'm not a financial advisoramong all the careers that I've
had, but it's you know.
Get out of debt, be sustainable, save for yourself for the
future, for when you're old andneed healthcare cared for.
Save for your kids, if you gotthem, so they can go to school
wherever they choose in theircollege and have good savings
(20:33):
and investments as part of yourdiversified portfolio.
That's all good, but then Wesleysaid the third thing earn all
you can, save all you can, giveall you can.
And so one of the things I loveto talk to accountants about in
particular, and financialadvisors is that last part.
How exactly do you save all youcan and then give all you can?
(20:56):
There's some tension in that,isn't there Absolutely, and I
think the answer is that when?
And that's why our motto is themore we make, the more we give,
because if you give it all away, then you're not sustainable
and you're becoming a burden onyour neighbor, right?
So you have to remain somehowsolvent and in many cases,
(21:17):
profitable, wealthy even.
But you got to give, you know,and the more you make, the more
you give.
That's kind of the core concept.
Speaker 2 (21:24):
I'd love that again.
And that last piece so earn it,save it absolutely, invest it,
be wise stewards of thoseresources that you were given
and then give back.
I mean again, there's so manygreat stories, the parables of
the talents or the menas.
I mean all those differentstories inside the Bible that
provide us phenomenal guidanceon how we should be utilizing
(21:44):
the gifts that we've been given.
And that's another side of it.
I think, too, is that if youwere given the gift of being a
great leader and a greatbusiness person and go drive
into that, don't think that youhave to get back in the
full-time ministry to actuallyserve.
We talked about this weekendwith those business leaders that
that's the Sunday.
If you will, one hour that youget inside a church versus the
(22:09):
40 hours minimum that you get achance to minister to your
organization through their workcan be really powerful.
You have so much more time tohave an impact on them inside of
that space if we can get there.
Speaker 1 (22:22):
And this is where, 500 years ago, martin Luther was
really the first that I'm awareof, the first to kind of take
the notion of a calling or avocation and take it outside the
church.
Because back during theReformation, literally 500 years
ago, he was telling peoplelisten, if you're a cobbler, if
you're a farmer, if you're ablacksmith, you're still
(22:43):
glorifying God from your work.
You don't have to go be a monk,you just got to have him in
your heart when they're at yourdesk or your bench or your plow.
And I just love that conceptbecause that, to me, broadens
out the way that we can serveGod, so that every single person
, including and especially thefolks who are listening today
every single person can glorifyGod through their work.
Speaker 2 (23:06):
Love that.
Do you have a favorite storyfrom the book that you wrote?
I mean it's full of storiesover there, Anything that's a
favorite story from the bookthat you wrote.
I mean it's full of storiesover there, Anything that's a
favorite.
Speaker 1 (23:13):
Yeah, I got to tell you the first one that jumped to
mind, because there are a fewstories in there.
The first one that jumps tomind is when I was going through
initial training, which ourchurch is called Discernment
Discernment of whether seminaryand becoming a pastor was the
right thing for me.
The bishop in Atlanta sent agroup of us 20 people down to
(23:35):
this part of Atlanta, right nearthe state capitol, that had a
big park that was kind ofrenowned for having homeless and
said go spend the day at thatpark and talk to the homeless.
So my buddy Peter and I aredown there and we're wandering
around and we had taken foodwith us to go give to the
homeless.
Right, I mean, we're affluentguys from different part of
(23:56):
Atlanta, we're heading down,we're going to go help the
homeless, and so we run intothis dude and had a terrific
conversation with him.
John, imagine it's a nice sunnyday in October.
He's laying in the grass in apark on a blue sky day.
State Capitol is right here,right.
And here come these.
He's African in the grass in apark on a blue sky day.
State Capitol is right here,right.
And here come these.
He's African American.
Here come, these white guys,and we got a bunch of food.
(24:17):
We're like, hey, man, we juststarted talking with him and
once we did, we realized howcompletely misguided we were in
preconceived notions we had ofwhat it means to be rich, and so
this is why it's one of myfavorites in the stories in the
book.
This dude's got rags on and aswe're talking to him he's laying
(24:38):
in the grass.
He's got a big kind of pouchbeside him, what we would call a
soft side cooler with a strapon it right.
And I'm like well, where do youlive?
And he's like right over there,under that bridge.
And he points to what inAtlanta is called the connector
Interstate.
75 and 85 are combined as theygo through downtown.
I live right over there.
God takes care of me.
When it rains.
I go under the bridge.
On a sunny day, I lay out herein the grass and we're like well
(25:01):
, man, can we give you some food?
We brought some with us.
He's like guys, give it tosomeone who needs it.
And and he pats the bag next tohim and then opens it up and
it's full of sandwiches thatother people have given to him.
He's like I got everything Ineed.
I got cover for me.
I got this food right here.
You give that food to someoneelse who needs it.
(25:21):
God takes care of me and I haveeverything I need.
I just love him and the waythat he protects me.
Sometimes I get scared whenthere's a thunderstorm or
there's some bully runningaround, but I got everything I
need and God's looking out forme and I just love that.
Because Jesus tells us time andtime again in scripture don't
worry, god's going to take careof you.
(25:42):
Look at the sparrows over there, look at those birds.
He takes care of them.
How much more will he take careof you because he loves you?
And so the devoutness of thathomeless man, the faith and the
depth of his commitment to godwas just awe-inspiring.
I just love that.
And it gets back to what thenotion of what it means to be
rich is.
I mean, I'm staying at a fancyhotel in phoenix visiting our
(26:04):
son who plays minor leaguebaseball.
We came from birminghamvisiting our older son who's at
the university of alabama.
We're heading to Tuscaloosatomorrow to visit our daughter
for her sorority parents weekend.
We're affluent.
I'm looking behind you at thesebeautiful bookshelves and the
things you have behind you.
You're affluent compared to theguy laying in the park with a
satchel full of sandwiches, andyet he is as rich as any of us
(26:27):
because of the commitment thathe has to the kingdom of heaven.
I just love it.
Speaker 2 (26:37):
Love that story, love that, that tension that exists
within us and it's just anawakening for us again drives us
back to scripture.
Let's put it on the lower shelffor folks Rich.
I mean, what's some practicaladvice that you have for
Christians who would really liketo align their financial
perspective with their faith?
Speaker 1 (26:54):
their financial perspective with their faith.
I'm so glad you asked, John,Part of the I don't know what's
the right way to say it Tensionis probably a great word Part of
the tension that we see here inChristians trying to take their
faith into the workplace.
Like you said, low level is yougot to do it in an HR compliant
manner, right?
You can't go giving yourtestimony to folks.
You can't go leaving Bibles oneverybody's desk, especially
(27:17):
given the size of the company.
Many of your listeners are inor they're going to be folks who
say, hey, wait a second.
This isn't right.
I feel like it's too much in myface.
And then you're going to have ameeting with HR and that's
appropriate.
That's appropriate becausepeople are coming there to work,
not to worship.
You're coming there to work andto worship, and so I think this
(27:41):
is one of the core concepts.
Whether it's an uncommon leaderin business or an uncommon
leader in the military, it's acore concept nonetheless, and
that's lead by example.
So one of the ways that you cancome to take your faith to work
is by showing people you're aChristian, without ever
mentioning the word Christ orChristian or church.
People will know it.
(28:01):
There's a great hymn out therefrom the old days, called they
will know us by our love.
Right, and people will know youby your love.
I like to say in ourcongregation, people can see the
light of Christ in your heartif you just let it shine, and
that doesn't mean beating themover the head with it.
It doesn't mean saying, hey,everybody, let's get together
and pray, Although that may beone day appropriate once you
(28:22):
determine how people arethinking and believing, who are
workers with you, believing whoare workers with you.
But it's really ultimately leadby example to me that,
regardless of your listeners areuncommon leaders, regardless of
what kind of business they'rein or what level of that
business they are, everybody canexhibit leadership in that
(28:45):
regard.
Speaker 2 (28:47):
Rich, love that it can be that simple and it can be
that difficult.
I'd love to introduce you toanother gentleman I met this
week, by the way, who wasanother attorney, not-for-profit
attorney, who defends folks inthe workplace who also choose
their faith, and he says we'vegot more freedom than we believe
.
Having said that, I know thatthere are many individuals who
are not Christians who believethat the hypocrisy of Christians
(29:09):
exists and that if we're notliving by the example that God
talked about inside the entireBible, that Jesus modeled with
his behaviors and love, that wewill be seen as those
individuals that just you knoware Bible thumpers that really
don't care about me.
We've got to be very aware ofthat and I love the idea of
leading, but starting off withleading by example.
(29:31):
Rich, I could keep going a longtime, forever and ever.
I know you probably got abaseball game to go to and I'm
not trying to jump you off thephone, but I do want to honor
your time.
A couple more questions.
How do folks stay or get intouch with you, rich, and learn
more about the ChristianCapitalist and about you?
Speaker 1 (29:46):
So we found what I thought was a relatively new
website address, I guess domain.
So our website is calledchristiancapitalistlife, which
is ultimately the goal that wehave.
Right, we want folks to be goodChristians and be good
capitalists.
And, by the way, there'stension in that.
I mean, there are people outthere when this is one of the
(30:07):
reasons I gave it thiscontroversial title there are
people out there in America,maybe even some who are
listening to your podcast rightnow who have a negative view of
Christians because they arehypocritical and they don't do
what they say and they don't actlike they're followers of Jesus
.
There are sure, a lot of peoplemaybe not who listen to your
podcast because it's so businessfocused, but there are a whole
(30:27):
lot of people who hear the wordcapitalist and think greed,
exploitation and negative right.
So I gave it this controversialtitle because I want folks to
at least understand from myperspective, that Christianity
and capitalism are not at odds,that they can completely be fit
together and thrive togetherwhen they're for the benefit of
(30:50):
the poor and needy.
So, christiancapitalistlife thebook is there.
We have lots of articles I postfive days a week on social
media and there's links to oursocial media there.
We're on all the channelsFacebook, instagram, linkedin
and, in particular, for those ofyou listeners who are financial
advisors or financialprofessionals, I focus my video
(31:12):
commentary on LinkedIn in thatdirection, because I think,
about kingdom impact and kingdomperformance indicators, that
the message of hard work andgenerous giving is kind of
exponentially grown into thekingdom.
When I'm talking to financialadvisors about hey, you know,
somebody just came to me andsaid they've inherited a million
(31:33):
dollars, what do I tell them?
And I say, save some, give some, right, I mean, you got to, you
got to hand things over whenyou get a windfall like that.
So, and and then, of course, wewe also have Rebecca and I
started.
My wife Rebecca and I, who'sbeen with me all along the way,
started a nonprofit that's justgetting started.
(31:54):
We don't even have our websiteyet, but you'll find links to
there.
It's called Koinonia Missionand for just the reason that you
mentioned, john, that so manyChristians who are not inclined
to go to church because churchhas such a negative connotation
to them, still want a way tolove their neighbor and do the
things that Jesus asked us to do, koinonia Mission is going to
(32:18):
be set to assist Christians incommunities to come together and
serve the poor and needyoutside of a church framework,
and so that'll bekoinoniamissionlife.
There'll be a link to that onthe Christian Catholic stuff.
Awesome, I will make sure toput a link to that on the
Christian Capitalist stuffAwesome.
Speaker 2 (32:33):
I will make sure to put a link in the show notes for
folks to get to Rich.
What a blessing it's been tohave the opportunity to meet you
, to chat with you today.
I wish you the best goingforward.
I'm going to finish and giveyou the last word with the same
question that I always use, andthat's I'm going to give you a
billboard and put it anywhereyou want to.
What's the message that you puton that billboard and why do
you put it on there?
Speaker 1 (32:52):
I love it, john, thank you.
The message is the Christiancapitalist the more we make, the
more we give, and that'sbecause, that's what God's
called us to do in businessExcellent.
Speaker 2 (33:01):
Thank you so much, Rich.
I wish you the best.
Speaker 1 (33:04):
Thank you, john, it's been a pleasure.
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (33:09):
And that wraps up another episode of the Uncommon
Leader Podcast.
Thanks for tuning in today.
If you found value in thisepisode, I encourage you to
share it with your friends,colleagues or anyone else who
could benefit from the insightsand inspiration we've shared.
Also, if you have a moment, I'dgreatly appreciate if you could
leave a rating and review onyour favorite podcast platform.
Your feedback not only helps usto improve, but it also helps
(33:31):
others discover the podcast andjoin our growing community of
uncommon leaders.
Until next time, go and growchampions.
Whether it's an uncommon leader in business or
an uncommon leader in themilitary, it's a core concept
nonetheless and that's lead byexample.
So one of the ways that you cancome to take your faith to work
is by showing people you're aChristian, without ever
mentioning the word Christ orChristian or church.
People will know it.
There's a great hymn out therefrom the old days called but
(00:20):
they will know us by our love.
Right, and people will know youby your love.
I like to say in ourcongregation people can see the
light of Christ in your heart ifyou just let it shine.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
Hey, uncommon Leaders , welcome back.
This is the Uncommon LeaderPodcast and I'm your host, john
Gallagher.
I've got a great guest for youtoday.
Let me kind of go down throughthis list for a minute.
So I've had pastors on thepodcast before.
I've had military officers onthe podcast before.
I've had business owners on thepodcast before.
I've had best-selling authorson the podcast before.
(00:58):
I don't know if I've had anyoneon the podcast that can claim
all four of those titles, if youwill.
But I'm pretty excited today tointroduce you all to Rich
Sanders, the author of theChristian Capitalist.
Rich, welcome to the UncommonLeader podcast.
How are you doing today?
Speaker 1 (01:14):
I'm doing great, John .
Thank you so much for having meon the show today.
I'm delighted to be here.
Speaker 2 (01:19):
Well, I know we're going to get a chance to talk
about your book and that'sreally what it's all about, and
I'm excited to dive into thatand learn a little bit more
about you.
But before I do that, I'll giveyou the same first question I
give all my first-time guests,and that's to tell me a story
from your childhood that stillimpacts who you are today, as a
leader or as a person.
Speaker 1 (01:39):
John, thank you.
First of all, thank you forinviting me.
I'm so glad to be here and Iappreciate you asking that
question.
I just had a phone call earlierthis morning where a young
woman who's a sophomore incollege was talking about how we
are, who we meet, and we arethe sum of our experiences.
So I think that's a great kickcareer officer in the Air Force
(02:03):
and the first place that ourmost memorable place that we
lived in the time that he was inthe Air Force, which started
before I was born, was in Italy.
So one of the ways that when wewere stationed in Italy and I
was a young guy, 10 years old,one of the ways that we used to
(02:24):
kind of occupy our time wasplayground, you know, football,
baseball, basketball, whatever,just like normal kids, even back
in the United States only we'reat a military base in Southern
Italy on the heel of the boot.
But the memory that sticks withme, and part of what I try and
bring to the table as a pastor,is how much fun it was when we
would have Bible study.
(02:45):
So this is an airman who'smaybe 19, 20 years old and he
was leading fifth grade Biblestudy.
So it was 10 boys and him.
We would go to the church, wewould have a conversation about
whatever it was, then we'd goplay football, and so I hang on
to that, because so many peoplethink of church as overbearing.
It's stained glass, it's organs, it's very formal, it's pent up
(03:08):
.
We've been to churches beforewhere when the kids sing they
don't even clap.
But what stuck with me fromthat is that church can be fun
and talking about Jesus kind offits into what you already do,
just like I would normally playfootball seven days a week.
But on that day it was rightafter we had studied scripture,
and it stuck with me that youcan have fun and integrate the
(03:29):
gospel into your everyday life.
Speaker 2 (03:31):
Love that and I hadn't thought about that in a
long time.
You know and I know that youtold me this before we hit the
record button today that you'reout in Phoenix, arizona or in
Tempe, arizona to watch your sonplay baseball.
So sports have stayed animportant part, uh, and clearly
you're pretty good at it.
So that's, that's somethingfrom an athletic standpoint.
If you've got a son that playsfor the Cubs, I think that's
awesome.
Uh, I I haven't had a lot tocheer about in baseball for the
(03:55):
last 30 years, being a piratefan growing up.
So that just is what it is withthe Cubs and they're they take
their baseball really seriousout there in Arizona, even for
spring training.
Speaker 1 (04:05):
Just a real quick note about that.
That's right, we are in Phoenixfor spring training.
Our son is in the minor leagueswith the Cubs, but the Pirates
have somebody to cheer for.
Paul Skeens went to LSU and ourson went to South Carolina, so
we have been in games whereSkeens has pitched before and
he's gotten a great start in thepros with the Pirates Rookie of
the year and starting theAll-Star game.
(04:27):
There's hope for Pirates fans.
Speaker 2 (04:29):
I love that we always have that hope.
Then eventually they trade himaway to the Yankees or to the
Cubs or to the Dodgers, whoeverit is.
We tend to be that great farmsystem that lives year-round.
Either way, skeens has beenphenomenal and fun to watch.
You're exactly right.
He's given us Pirate fanssomething to talk about, and I
think he's going to be evenbetter this year, as long as he
(04:53):
can stay healthy.
So we could talk baseballprobably all the way through.
But we're here to talk aboutyour book, the Christian
Capitalist, the Gospel of HardWork and Generous Giving.
So as I kind of read throughand not the entire book, but a
significant part of the bookthere was a picture that came to
my mind and it talked about thetension between gaining wealth
and our giving health asindividuals, as leaders, and not
(05:14):
just in the business owner side.
But there was a word that youused in the back of the book
that I just want to jump intoright off the bat, and that's
philanthropic capitalism, and Idon't know if you made that word
up or whatever it is, but whatis philanthropic capitalism?
Speaker 1 (05:27):
Yeah, that's a great question.
So philanthropic capitalism, Ithought was going to be more of
a popularized term by now.
I did not create it, I found itin a series of articles from
about 15 years ago.
But basically, for yourlisteners, who are uncommon
leaders, they are probablyfamiliar with consumer products
(05:47):
of one sort or another, whetherit's apparel, whether it's
consumer items in the grocerystore.
This is an increasingphenomenon, where businesses
commit to a certain amount ofprofit for charitable use.
There are some companies outthere that say, hey, for every
couple of shoes we sell, we giveone to charity.
There's a company out therethat says we dedicate a certain
(06:11):
amount to charity of our profits.
There are certain companies,like grocery stores, that say
here's the community impact wemake with the funds that you
give us when you come and shopin our stores.
All of those are examples ofphilanthropic capitalism.
The reason I mention it in thebook, though, is that we find,
(06:31):
in the world of the Christiancapitalist, we find that
philanthropic capitalism lacksone important thing, and it is
the foundation of our religion,and that is love.
Philanthropic capitalism withoutlove is love, is, in many ways,
pr and marketing right.
Hey, look how good we are, lookhow we're supporting the
community, but if you do it onlyfor the purpose of making
(06:52):
yourself look better and again,this is a trend that's really
come on in the last 15 or 20years there are companies want
to show community impact, wantto show positive impact on the
community, and that's all good,but when it comes down to it you
and I were talking about this alittle bit before the podcast
started when it comes down to it, even when you're speaking on
behalf of an organization andmany of the leaders who are
(07:14):
listening to your podcast todayare they've got a company 50,
100, 500, 5,000.
But it all comes down to yourindividual relationship with God
.
And if you, as the leader, arecreating the culture of your
community that has thisphilanthropy, capitalism
component, that's all well andgood, but without love, it seems
hollow.
So so that's why we mentionedin the book.
(07:36):
It's a great step in the rightdirection.
I certainly want to encourageall the uncommon leaders who are
listening today to keep doingit.
But without that love ofneighbor component, it seems
from my, as you mentioned, veryparticular lens as entrepreneur,
author, veteran and pastor itseems a little hollow without
that love of neighbor.
Speaker 2 (07:55):
Rich.
I love that and, again, you andI chatted offline right before
that.
I just got the chance over thepast couple of days to spend
really two days with a group ofChristian business leaders
talking about that very specifictopic and what I kind of refer
to it as moving from keyperformance indicators like
revenue and profit and marginand customer service, which are
all very important to thesuccess I know you talk about
(08:18):
this in your book as well tokingdom performance indicators
and the impact we're having onour employees, our communities
in the local church and, frankly, all the way out through the
world.
And that's where that tensionexists Without love, in that
there's oftentimes a I'll usethis term as strong to be a fear
(08:39):
of communicating that as well.
So, in the biblical side, don'tlet the left hand know what the
right hand is doing in terms ofgiving and don't be a braggart
about that.
But if we don't measure kingdomimpact, how are we going to
achieve kingdom impact?
So you have to have a way tomeasure that.
You talk about that one pair ofsocks for Bomba for everyone
they sell, they give one away.
(08:59):
Or organizations that givemoney for digging wells in
communities that don't haveclean drinking water, so many
different things that are havingkingdom impact that I believe,
because of that tension thatexists that they're afraid to
talk about it is that we don'thear those stories and then more
of those stories don't comeabout.
So I'm so glad your book talksabout some of those stories and
(09:20):
you share so many differentscriptural references as well as
to what that means inside of usas Christians to give and how
important it is.
Speaker 1 (09:30):
What's hard, john?
There is a lot of tension in it.
I mean, listen, one of thereasons I wrote this book is
that when my job in theEpiscopal Church, in our liturgy
, my job, is to read the gospel,we have lay readers who read
the other parts of thescriptures for a particular
service.
But in the gospel, when I havein my congregation folks who are
(09:51):
wealth advisors or CPAs orfinancial advisors, folks who
are wealthy by making otherpeople wealthy, and I read the
gospel that says Jesus told usthat it's easier for a camel to
get through the eye of a needlethan a rich man to get into
heaven.
Or when he tells the rich youngruler hey, listen, there's only
one other thing you need to doto inherit the kingdom, and
(10:13):
that's sell everything you haveand give it to the poor, and the
rich man goes away sad becausehe has many things.
I can see the look on the facesof the members of my
congregation, and so the book istrying to help us wrestle with
those tensions.
They're all throughout thescripture and they're all
throughout daily life.
Speaker 2 (10:30):
Love that, so let's jump right there.
And it's one thing that we wantto name the title Christian
Capitalist.
What does it mean to you, then,to be a Christian Capitalist?
Speaker 1 (10:38):
Oh, I'm so glad you asked.
It means that, and this is whyit's the subtitle.
It means that, and this is whyit's the subtitle it means that
we work hard and give generouslyto the poor and needy, in the
name of Jesus Christ.
And, in fact, if there's onething that if your listeners
take away from today, I wouldlike them to remember that the
motto of the Christiancapitalist is the more we make,
the more we give.
Profit on its own is, and theaccumulation of profit for no
(11:00):
other purpose is simply anotherway of expressing greed right
for no other purpose is simplyanother way of expressing greed
right.
But accumulation of profit tothen benefit your neighbor, your
poor and needy neighbor inparticular, to love them, is
exactly what God had in mind forus when he sent us Jesus to say
here's what you need to do LoveGod above all else.
Love your neighbor, as I haveloved you.
Well, if you're a rich guy andyou're surrounded by poor people
(11:22):
and you don't give to them, oryou're a rich guy and you're
surrounded by poor people andyou don't give to them, or
you're a rich woman and you haveall these, you know, have all
these material possessions, butsee people laying in the street
without clothing or food orshelter.
That's.
Speaker 2 (11:35):
you're missing the concept no-transcript the money
(12:07):
to be able to carry out themission.
And so, as a Christiancapitalist, we've got to be to
bear fruit back into the Bibleagain, to bear fruit in the work
that we do so that we can helpothers and both prosper
ourselves but also help others.
Name Jesus, and again, love isone of those perfect words that
can be done.
Speaker 1 (12:26):
I agree with the nun who told you that so many years
ago, before you know, as abusiness owner, you've got to
have the ability, as youmentioned earlier.
It's an important word.
You've got to havesustainability.
But once you have your house inorder whether it's your
individual house or yourcorporate house once you have
your house in order, then thequestion is what do we want to
(12:47):
do with it?
Earlier this morning I spokewith a young woman.
We're interviewing her to be anintern for our Christian
Capitalist Project this summerand she's a sophomore in college
, so maybe 19, maybe 20 yearsold.
Pretty wise coming from aperson of this age.
She said I really love whatyou're doing because one day I
(13:07):
want to own my own business andI want to make enough money to
start a nonprofit.
Isn't that wonderful.
Someone can.
As a business owner, someonecan have that kind of vision
even at that young age.
Someone can have that kind ofvision even at that young age.
There's a business incubator.
You probably saw on my bio.
I taught healthcare law at EmoryUniversity for 20 years and so
(13:29):
I had a new group of studentscome through every year and I
just loved working with themAlong the way.
Emory set up a businessincubator to help kids, students
, get their business kind ofproposals in mind and really
launch things.
I had a great discussion withthe executive director there a
couple of years ago and I don'tthink this is specific to Emory.
I think this is specific tothis next generation behind you
(13:51):
and me.
I said I'm just thrilled,executive director, that this
place is full.
All these people are cominghere to learn how to start
businesses and it's just, it'sfantastic for capitalism, right?
I'm an ardent stride andsupporter of free enterprise.
He's like, yeah, but it'sinteresting, nine out of 10 are
here to start some kind ofsocial impact nonprofit.
(14:12):
Isn't that interesting?
Yes, so I think this gets backto kind of one of the core
concepts of the Christiancapitalist.
We are made in God's image.
God made us in his image duringthe creation and we know a
couple of things about God.
The first is he worked veryhard, right, he built the entire
universe and earth in six daysand he built us, and that he
(14:34):
gives so hard work and generousgiving are part of who we are as
humans.
You know we're unique among allthe animals in creation and so
that notion of wanting to starta business purely for the
purpose of benefiting others iswonderful, but, like you said,
no profit, no mission.
Right, they got to cometogether.
Speaker 2 (14:55):
Hey listeners, I want to take a quick moment to share
something special with you.
Many of the topics anddiscussions we have on this
podcast are areas where Iprovide coaching and consulting
services for individuals andorganizations.
If you've been inspired by ourconversation and are seeking a
catalyst for change in your ownlife or within your team, I
invite you to visitcoachjohngallaghercom forward
(15:16):
slash free call to sign up for afree coaching call with me.
It's an opportunity for us toconnect, discuss your unique
challenges and explore howcoaching or consulting can
benefit you and your team.
Okay, let's get back to theshow.
So I mean again, as you say,that I try not to think of the
next one, but it's so criticalthat generation is coming up and
(15:39):
they've got.
I don't know which gen they are, it doesn't matter but, as you
said, the generation behind us.
I can't keep track of all theYs and Zs and whatever they are,
but they have a desire to giveback, they have a real passion
for social responsibility andyet sometimes what's missed is
that importance.
On the side of if there's nomoney, we have to teach them to
(16:02):
run those nonprofits.
We teach them to run thosechurches.
By the way, this is coming froma guy with business, like a
business Right, okay, that ifyou want that to be sustainable,
if you want it to have thekingdom in back that you really
have, then you need to utilizesome fundamental business
principles that are there.
So I think that's one of thebarriers that exists in that
(16:24):
space is to make sure they'relearning that as well.
They get the liberal arts sideof the work that they want to do
and have an impact and theymiss the business side of.
Well, how do I make sure I'msolvent and can make that happen
?
You know another side of thatis Christian.
What are some of the other?
Again another title that Imissed when you just told me, as
a professor, but as a pastorand as a business owner, and so
(16:47):
then you're meeting with yourcongregation well, the people in
your congregation, what aresome of the other misconceptions
or barriers that they run intoabout the relationship between
Christianity and capitalism?
Speaker 1 (16:58):
It was a great question, I'll tell you.
Getting back to the questionyou asked me earlier about
philanthropic capitalism, youknow, in talking either as a
lawyer or as a professor andtalking with folks who want to
start a business, the firstquestion I always ask is what is
the mission?
You know, what are you startingthis business for?
There's a great book out therecalled Start With why, right?
(17:19):
So what are you trying to do?
And the short answer is ifyou're starting a nonprofit and
you want to have some kind ofcharitable effort, or if you're
starting a business, either way,they have to be sustainable.
The question is does oneultimately have no profit, so
there are no shareholders togive a dividend to?
Or do you have shareholders butstill then offer that benefit
(17:42):
to your neighbors?
Our concept as the Christiancapitalist is that you can do
both.
It is easy, starting withpeople who have committed their
lives to God, who have said Iwant to give up everything I
have to God and serve only him,and I'm going to enter a
religious order and become a nun, just like that woman at the
hospital that you worked withback in Chicago, right?
(18:04):
But?
But you can have the same levelof commitment to God as a small
business owner or an executivein business.
It's just a different way toworship and it's a different way
to glorify him, and so that'sone of the biggest
misconceptions, you know.
We start with this concept ofwell, I can only worship and
glorify God if I fully commit tothe church, if I fully commit
(18:26):
to religion, if I become a nunor a monk or, you know, pastor
or priest.
Otherwise, I'm just a businessperson and the best I can do is
put something in the plate whenit comes by or, these days, make
my electronic contribution.
And I just, I really want todiscourage folks from that kind
of mindset.
When we work, we glorify God,and when we give, we glorify God
(18:47):
.
And that includes smallbusiness owners, like you just
met with with your conference.
That includes your listeners.
Everybody can have the samekind of role of of serving and
glorifying him, regardless ofwhat kind of business they have,
as long as they're helpingothers through that business.
And that can be after a verysuccessful year or a very
(19:08):
successful string of years wherefolks are putting money in
their 401ks, whether they'rebuying a new house or buying a
new car or saving for theirkid's college.
All of those things areconsistent with being a good
Christian, as long as the endresult is your love and your
neighbor.
John Wesley I had a great way ofputting this because, again,
(19:29):
you and I, one of the wordswe've been talking about a lot
today is tension.
There is some tension in themessage here.
And Wesley, back in 1750, john,I mean, so this is not a new
concept, but he had a great wayof describing it in three kind
of instructions to hiscongregation.
In his sermon on money, he saidearn all you can.
Now, that's, that's fantastic.
(19:50):
Right, that's like straight outof wall street.
You and I are guys from the 80s.
Right, that's, that's gordongecko.
Talk, go, earn all you can.
But then he throws everybody apause and and the modern word we
would say is sustainability,right, earn all you can, but
then save all you can.
Be a good steward of everythingthat you earn, and to me, for
your listeners, that means getout of right.
(20:11):
I'm starting to sound a littlelike Dave Ramsey now, but I'm
not.
I'm not a financial advisoramong all the careers that I've
had, but it's you know.
Get out of debt, be sustainable, save for yourself for the
future, for when you're old andneed healthcare cared for.
Save for your kids, if you gotthem, so they can go to school
wherever they choose in theircollege and have good savings
(20:33):
and investments as part of yourdiversified portfolio.
That's all good, but then Wesleysaid the third thing earn all
you can, save all you can, giveall you can.
And so one of the things I loveto talk to accountants about in
particular, and financialadvisors is that last part.
How exactly do you save all youcan and then give all you can?
(20:56):
There's some tension in that,isn't there Absolutely, and I
think the answer is that when?
And that's why our motto is themore we make, the more we give,
because if you give it all away, then you're not sustainable
and you're becoming a burden onyour neighbor, right?
So you have to remain somehowsolvent and in many cases,
(21:17):
profitable, wealthy even.
But you got to give, you know,and the more you make, the more
you give.
That's kind of the core concept.
Speaker 2 (21:24):
I'd love that again.
And that last piece so earn it,save it absolutely, invest it,
be wise stewards of thoseresources that you were given
and then give back.
I mean again, there's so manygreat stories, the parables of
the talents or the menas.
I mean all those differentstories inside the Bible that
provide us phenomenal guidanceon how we should be utilizing
(21:44):
the gifts that we've been given.
And that's another side of it.
I think, too, is that if youwere given the gift of being a
great leader and a greatbusiness person and go drive
into that, don't think that youhave to get back in the
full-time ministry to actuallyserve.
We talked about this weekendwith those business leaders that
that's the Sunday.
If you will, one hour that youget inside a church versus the
(22:09):
40 hours minimum that you get achance to minister to your
organization through their workcan be really powerful.
You have so much more time tohave an impact on them inside of
that space if we can get there.
Speaker 1 (22:22):
And this is where, 500 years ago, martin Luther was
really the first that I'm awareof, the first to kind of take
the notion of a calling or avocation and take it outside the
church.
Because back during theReformation, literally 500 years
ago, he was telling peoplelisten, if you're a cobbler, if
you're a farmer, if you're ablacksmith, you're still
(22:43):
glorifying God from your work.
You don't have to go be a monk,you just got to have him in
your heart when they're at yourdesk or your bench or your plow.
And I just love that conceptbecause that, to me, broadens
out the way that we can serveGod, so that every single person
, including and especially thefolks who are listening today
every single person can glorifyGod through their work.
Speaker 2 (23:06):
Love that.
Do you have a favorite storyfrom the book that you wrote?
I mean it's full of storiesover there, Anything that's a
favorite story from the bookthat you wrote.
I mean it's full of storiesover there, Anything that's a
favorite.
Speaker 1 (23:13):
Yeah, I got to tell you the first one that jumped to
mind, because there are a fewstories in there.
The first one that jumps tomind is when I was going through
initial training, which ourchurch is called Discernment
Discernment of whether seminaryand becoming a pastor was the
right thing for me.
The bishop in Atlanta sent agroup of us 20 people down to
(23:35):
this part of Atlanta, right nearthe state capitol, that had a
big park that was kind ofrenowned for having homeless and
said go spend the day at thatpark and talk to the homeless.
So my buddy Peter and I aredown there and we're wandering
around and we had taken foodwith us to go give to the
homeless.
Right, I mean, we're affluentguys from different part of
(23:56):
Atlanta, we're heading down,we're going to go help the
homeless, and so we run intothis dude and had a terrific
conversation with him.
John, imagine it's a nice sunnyday in October.
He's laying in the grass in apark on a blue sky day.
State Capitol is right here,right.
And here come these.
He's African in the grass in apark on a blue sky day.
State Capitol is right here,right.
And here come these.
He's African American.
Here come, these white guys,and we got a bunch of food.
(24:17):
We're like, hey, man, we juststarted talking with him and
once we did, we realized howcompletely misguided we were in
preconceived notions we had ofwhat it means to be rich, and so
this is why it's one of myfavorites in the stories in the
book.
This dude's got rags on and aswe're talking to him he's laying
(24:38):
in the grass.
He's got a big kind of pouchbeside him, what we would call a
soft side cooler with a strapon it right.
And I'm like well, where do youlive?
And he's like right over there,under that bridge.
And he points to what inAtlanta is called the connector
Interstate.
75 and 85 are combined as theygo through downtown.
I live right over there.
God takes care of me.
When it rains.
I go under the bridge.
On a sunny day, I lay out herein the grass and we're like well
(25:01):
, man, can we give you some food?
We brought some with us.
He's like guys, give it tosomeone who needs it.
And and he pats the bag next tohim and then opens it up and
it's full of sandwiches thatother people have given to him.
He's like I got everything Ineed.
I got cover for me.
I got this food right here.
You give that food to someoneelse who needs it.
(25:21):
God takes care of me and I haveeverything I need.
I just love him and the waythat he protects me.
Sometimes I get scared whenthere's a thunderstorm or
there's some bully runningaround, but I got everything I
need and God's looking out forme and I just love that.
Because Jesus tells us time andtime again in scripture don't
worry, god's going to take careof you.
(25:42):
Look at the sparrows over there, look at those birds.
He takes care of them.
How much more will he take careof you because he loves you?
And so the devoutness of thathomeless man, the faith and the
depth of his commitment to godwas just awe-inspiring.
I just love that.
And it gets back to what thenotion of what it means to be
rich is.
I mean, I'm staying at a fancyhotel in phoenix visiting our
(26:04):
son who plays minor leaguebaseball.
We came from birminghamvisiting our older son who's at
the university of alabama.
We're heading to Tuscaloosatomorrow to visit our daughter
for her sorority parents weekend.
We're affluent.
I'm looking behind you at thesebeautiful bookshelves and the
things you have behind you.
You're affluent compared to theguy laying in the park with a
satchel full of sandwiches, andyet he is as rich as any of us
(26:27):
because of the commitment thathe has to the kingdom of heaven.
I just love it.
Speaker 2 (26:37):
Love that story, love that, that tension that exists
within us and it's just anawakening for us again drives us
back to scripture.
Let's put it on the lower shelffor folks Rich.
I mean, what's some practicaladvice that you have for
Christians who would really liketo align their financial
perspective with their faith?
Speaker 1 (26:54):
their financial perspective with their faith.
I'm so glad you asked, John,Part of the I don't know what's
the right way to say it Tensionis probably a great word Part of
the tension that we see here inChristians trying to take their
faith into the workplace.
Like you said, low level is yougot to do it in an HR compliant
manner, right?
You can't go giving yourtestimony to folks.
You can't go leaving Bibles oneverybody's desk, especially
(27:17):
given the size of the company.
Many of your listeners are inor they're going to be folks who
say, hey, wait a second.
This isn't right.
I feel like it's too much in myface.
And then you're going to have ameeting with HR and that's
appropriate.
That's appropriate becausepeople are coming there to work,
not to worship.
You're coming there to work andto worship, and so I think this
(27:41):
is one of the core concepts.
Whether it's an uncommon leaderin business or an uncommon
leader in the military, it's acore concept nonetheless, and
that's lead by example.
So one of the ways that you cancome to take your faith to work
is by showing people you're aChristian, without ever
mentioning the word Christ orChristian or church.
People will know it.
(28:01):
There's a great hymn out therefrom the old days, called they
will know us by our love.
Right, and people will know youby your love.
I like to say in ourcongregation, people can see the
light of Christ in your heartif you just let it shine, and
that doesn't mean beating themover the head with it.
It doesn't mean saying, hey,everybody, let's get together
and pray, Although that may beone day appropriate once you
(28:22):
determine how people arethinking and believing, who are
workers with you, believing whoare workers with you.
But it's really ultimately leadby example to me that,
regardless of your listeners areuncommon leaders, regardless of
what kind of business they'rein or what level of that
business they are, everybody canexhibit leadership in that
(28:45):
regard.
Speaker 2 (28:47):
Rich, love that it can be that simple and it can be
that difficult.
I'd love to introduce you toanother gentleman I met this
week, by the way, who wasanother attorney, not-for-profit
attorney, who defends folks inthe workplace who also choose
their faith, and he says we'vegot more freedom than we believe
.
Having said that, I know thatthere are many individuals who
are not Christians who believethat the hypocrisy of Christians
(29:09):
exists and that if we're notliving by the example that God
talked about inside the entireBible, that Jesus modeled with
his behaviors and love, that wewill be seen as those
individuals that just you knoware Bible thumpers that really
don't care about me.
We've got to be very aware ofthat and I love the idea of
leading, but starting off withleading by example.
(29:31):
Rich, I could keep going a longtime, forever and ever.
I know you probably got abaseball game to go to and I'm
not trying to jump you off thephone, but I do want to honor
your time.
A couple more questions.
How do folks stay or get intouch with you, rich, and learn
more about the ChristianCapitalist and about you?
Speaker 1 (29:46):
So we found what I thought was a relatively new
website address, I guess domain.
So our website is calledchristiancapitalistlife, which
is ultimately the goal that wehave.
Right, we want folks to be goodChristians and be good
capitalists.
And, by the way, there'stension in that.
I mean, there are people outthere when this is one of the
(30:07):
reasons I gave it thiscontroversial title there are
people out there in America,maybe even some who are
listening to your podcast rightnow who have a negative view of
Christians because they arehypocritical and they don't do
what they say and they don't actlike they're followers of Jesus
.
There are sure, a lot of peoplemaybe not who listen to your
podcast because it's so businessfocused, but there are a whole
(30:27):
lot of people who hear the wordcapitalist and think greed,
exploitation and negative right.
So I gave it this controversialtitle because I want folks to
at least understand from myperspective, that Christianity
and capitalism are not at odds,that they can completely be fit
together and thrive togetherwhen they're for the benefit of
(30:50):
the poor and needy.
So, christiancapitalistlife thebook is there.
We have lots of articles I postfive days a week on social
media and there's links to oursocial media there.
We're on all the channelsFacebook, instagram, linkedin
and, in particular, for those ofyou listeners who are financial
advisors or financialprofessionals, I focus my video
(31:12):
commentary on LinkedIn in thatdirection, because I think,
about kingdom impact and kingdomperformance indicators, that
the message of hard work andgenerous giving is kind of
exponentially grown into thekingdom.
When I'm talking to financialadvisors about hey, you know,
somebody just came to me andsaid they've inherited a million
(31:33):
dollars, what do I tell them?
And I say, save some, give some, right, I mean, you got to, you
got to hand things over whenyou get a windfall like that.
So, and and then, of course, wewe also have Rebecca and I
started.
My wife Rebecca and I, who'sbeen with me all along the way,
started a nonprofit that's justgetting started.
(31:54):
We don't even have our websiteyet, but you'll find links to
there.
It's called Koinonia Missionand for just the reason that you
mentioned, john, that so manyChristians who are not inclined
to go to church because churchhas such a negative connotation
to them, still want a way tolove their neighbor and do the
things that Jesus asked us to do, koinonia Mission is going to
(32:18):
be set to assist Christians incommunities to come together and
serve the poor and needyoutside of a church framework,
and so that'll bekoinoniamissionlife.
There'll be a link to that onthe Christian Catholic stuff.
Awesome, I will make sure toput a link to that on the
Christian Capitalist stuffAwesome.
Speaker 2 (32:33):
I will make sure to put a link in the show notes for
folks to get to Rich.
What a blessing it's been tohave the opportunity to meet you
, to chat with you today.
I wish you the best goingforward.
I'm going to finish and giveyou the last word with the same
question that I always use, andthat's I'm going to give you a
billboard and put it anywhereyou want to.
What's the message that you puton that billboard and why do
you put it on there?
Speaker 1 (32:52):
I love it, john, thank you.
The message is the Christiancapitalist the more we make, the
more we give, and that'sbecause, that's what God's
called us to do in businessExcellent.
Speaker 2 (33:01):
Thank you so much, Rich.
I wish you the best.
Speaker 1 (33:04):
Thank you, john, it's been a pleasure.
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (33:09):
And that wraps up another episode of the Uncommon
Leader Podcast.
Thanks for tuning in today.
If you found value in thisepisode, I encourage you to
share it with your friends,colleagues or anyone else who
could benefit from the insightsand inspiration we've shared.
Also, if you have a moment, I'dgreatly appreciate if you could
leave a rating and review onyour favorite podcast platform.
Your feedback not only helps usto improve, but it also helps
(33:31):
others discover the podcast andjoin our growing community of
uncommon leaders.
Until next time, go and growchampions.
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