December 31, 2024 • 41 mins
Discover how Charles Spinosa, a visionary in leadership and business growth, navigated a challenging start in rural New Jersey to earn recognition as a thought leader. Marked by an early mislabeling in school, Charles shares his compelling personal story of triumph over adversity, fueled by a passion for literature and a knack for math and science. His journey is a testament to the power of perseverance and intellectual curiosity, inspiring leaders to challenge the status quo and embrace a more humanistic approach to business.
Join our conversation as we unpack the shift from profit-centric to purpose-driven business strategies. Witness how aligning with community values can double profitability and foster ethical distinction that goes beyond the conventional business playbook. With insights from both business veterans and scholars, we explore how embracing the humanities can enliven market dynamics, urging leaders to integrate core values into their strategies and redefine economic success.
Prepare to engage with the complex interplay of moral risk and artificial intelligence, a frontier where ethical decision-making becomes paramount. Charles illuminates the responsibilities of those crafting AI algorithms, especially as these technologies permeate critical areas like the military. Through the lens of his book, "Leadership as Masterpiece Creation," Charles invites leaders to become moral artists, using courage and creativity to inspire innovation and growth. Connect with Charles on LinkedIn for deeper insights and explore his work to transform your leadership journey.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
I see business masterpieces are those that are
ethically distinctive, that aremorally distinctive, have a
sense of what's right.
That's really tied in verydeeply to the business.
And if you do have a sense ofwhat's right and it's different
from your industry, as it willbe if you're distinctive, then
you're going to do some thingsthat look shocking to your
(00:21):
industry look shocking to yourindustry.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Hey, uncommon Leaders , welcome back.
This is the Uncommon LeaderPodcast and I'm your host, john
Gallagher.
In today's episode, I'm excitedto have Charles Spinoza join us
to discuss themes from his bookLeadership as a Masterpiece
Creation.
Charles brings a wealth ofexperience from his challenging
childhood in rural New Jersey,where he defied the odds to
excel in academia, to hisextensive career as a consultant
, improving operationalefficiency and profitability
(00:51):
through humanistic values.
We'll explore his journey fromShakespeare scholar to
management consultant, divinginto his innovative approach to
leadership and business growththrough moral risk-taking growth
through moral risk-taking.
This episode is packed withinsights on how leaders can
listen better, engage withdiverse perspectives and build
organizations that not onlythrive but also enrich lives.
So let's get started.
(01:12):
Charles Spinoza, welcome to theUncommon Leader Podcast.
I'm real excited about ourconversation today.
How are you doing today?
Speaker 1 (01:24):
I'm doing very well, John.
Thank you for having me here.
I look forward to talking aboutwhat will turn out to be the
themes of my book, and I hopeyour audience loves it as well.
Speaker 2 (01:35):
I think the listeners are going to get a lot out of
it.
I know before we hit the recordbutton we had some good
conversation going already andit's one of those things like I
need the B-roll to add it in.
So we'll try to reproduce someof that conversation as we go
forward.
But I'll start you off the sameway.
I start all the guests on theUncommon Leader podcast and I
said tell me a story from yourchildhood that still impacts who
you are today, as a leader oras a person.
Speaker 1 (01:57):
I'm delighted to do that and, by the way, I want to
say I think that's the best wayto get to know leaders right
from the get-go.
I call that in my practice, Icall that what's your
fundamental story, foundationalstory, and it's the story you
have to change as you evolve asa leader.
But you need to know what it is.
So here's mine.
It shows who I am, blemishesand virtues alike.
(02:21):
I grew up in New Jersey in afamily that wasn't really fully
functional.
My parents did not get along atall and in my childhood we
lived in a rural part of NewJersey and I'd wander around in
the woods and I was sort of awandering, sort of like a cloud,
(02:43):
wandering all over the person.
I started school and was verymuch the same way wandered
around, did my best, likedschool by and large, made some
friends, but there was nothingvery, very deep and binding.
Then in fifth grade this is theSputnik era we all took IQ
tests and my parents wereeducators.
(03:07):
They totally believed in IQtests at the time and I did
terribly on it.
I came out in a way that wasthen called mentally retarded
and moved away from my friendsand the classes that I was in
and put in the class of otherpeople who had tested the same
way the mentally retarded classand I was horrified.
(03:31):
I was not like the other peoplein that class.
I could see that I had neverthought of myself as having
intellectual pretensions this isfifth grade, after all but I
determined that I was.
I had to get out of it and Iasked my parents what I could do
(03:56):
, and my father said well, youknow, maybe you can become a
carpenter one day.
You really work hard.
I said no, that's not what Iwant.
My mother said well, it's notlikely.
You can do very much, but tryreading.
And so that was it.
That was exactly what I did.
I demanded my parents take me tothe local bookstore, which was
some drive away.
There was no Amazon, no easyway of getting books, and in
(04:19):
those days this is the early 60sFreud showed up as the leading
intellectual, and so I readeverything by Freud and by some
of his followers, eric Krohn,that I could.
And I brought this into myconversations with my teachers
and it did not go over that well, but they saw that I was
(04:40):
unusual.
I was unusual.
I would tell teachers that theywere acting in the way they
were because of some disturbancethey had and seeing their
primal scene with their parentswhen they were young and was
touched on insanity.
So my first attempt to get outdidn't work.
But I came to see that in thosedays being able to do really
(05:02):
well in math and science was theticket.
People thought of those asobjective, they thought of those
as really, and so I threwmyself into doing math and
science.
I became a fiercely well,fiercely intellectual because
nobody expected it or wanted itin the classes I was in and by
(05:24):
eighth grade I was released intothe advanced courses and that
struggle has defined me.
I do have, you know, my youth.
I was fiercely intellectual.
I have modified that over theyears.
I'm something of an explainernow, I hope, a generous
explainer, although most peoplesay no, charles, you're still a
(05:45):
challenging explainer.
Now, I hope, a generousexplainer.
Although most people say, no,charles, you're still a
challenging explainer, youhaven't left it that far.
They might be right, I can'ttell.
But that's me.
I don't think I have the chipon my shoulder that I had before
.
If not, if I do, it's much,much lighter and and I'm trying
to find out what's true andwhat's interesting.
Speaker 2 (06:08):
I always love the stories of childhood and how
they how they connect andcertainly, as I look at a little
bit of your past, I can I canunderstand, uh, how that
connects.
You know, uh, many of thestories that I talk with folks
are folks that overcame stories,just like whether it was deaths
in their family or stutteringas a child and how someone
(06:28):
became very successful andsometime it takes that to
overcome.
In fact, auntie Ann Byler wasanother guest and the name of
her book was Overcome and Lead.
Her tragedy occurred later inlife in terms of some of those
things, but they are the thingsthat frame us and, as we chatted
about beforehand, sometimeswe're there to help the person
that we used to be, to get themthrough situations like that.
(06:50):
So you went from that challengeclass in fifth grade to the
advanced classes after eighthgrade.
You ultimately ended up being aprofessor and we're going to
talk about that as well.
But really what we're heretoday is to talk about,
ultimately, how you took some ofthat reading, if you will, and
talk about that and turned itinto your consulting practice as
(07:11):
well to help business.
Name your book.
What Business Leaders Can Learnfrom the Humanities About Moral
Risk Taking, that's thesubtopic.
Speaker 1 (07:18):
But Leadership as Masterpiece Creation.
Speaker 2 (07:22):
And that is something that, first of all, I found as
a fascinating title, and it doesconnect in terms of when you're
listening through it but amasterpiece creation.
So let's start right therebefore we can get into the why
and who you wrote it for.
How do you define what that isas a masterpiece creation in
terms of the?
Speaker 1 (07:41):
title.
That's my basic disposition.
For years I was a consultant.
For 27 years I was a consultant.
What you do as a consultant isyou try to help people become
more operationally efficient,operationally profitable,
productive, gain new clients,new revenue, and I always did it
by trying to help them givetheir employees better lives or
(08:05):
give their customers betterlives.
So that was my past in thehumanities, but I was focused on
operations, as are otherconsultants, and good businesses
look like high performingbusinesses that have high stock
premiums and that's it.
But I realized that that wasnot exactly what the leaders
(08:27):
wanted.
One of my best cases ever thatwas written up in the California
Management Review, blue OceanStrategy, prahalad's book on the
pyramid and so forth was Cemex.
We invented a way of sellingcement to poorer Mexicans and we
did it by bridging the valuesbetween middle class Mexicans
(08:49):
who ran CEMEX and poorerMexicans.
Poorer Mexicans at the timeloved their neighborhoods, loved
warmth, didn't really seefinancial responsibility as
important.
Planning was seen as evil.
Important Planning was seen asevil.
These are all things that themiddle class Mexicans like.
How did they save money?
(09:11):
They didn't save money.
What they do is they formlittle clubs.
They pull their money alltogether and one person would
get the money from the club andthey change who got it each week
.
We took that and we made thatinto a cement tonda.
That's what they called thoseclubs.
The company Cemex doubled itsprofitability from this segment.
Some places it tripled itsprofitability, the segment
itself.
They built their homes cheaperand faster, significantly faster
(09:33):
.
So it was win-win totally, andbasic practice stayed in the
company for about 17 years.
But the Cemex managers didn'tlike it.
Why didn't they like it?
They wanted their customers tobecome like middle-class
Mexicans.
They didn't want to be servingthis community.
(09:54):
They had a sense of what theright way to be was.
Now you would think that Ishould have gotten that right
away, given my background in thehumanities, but no, I was
caught up in consulting, tryingto get operational efficiency.
It was a great case morecustomers, more profits, better
life for customers, and it tookme a very long time to realize
(10:22):
that what people who leadbusinesses want is to create a
world, create an organizationthat does what it considers the
right thing for its employees,the right thing for its
customers, the right thing forits suppliers, the right thing
for its shareholders.
Some go to other stakeholdergroups beyond that, but those
are the core that every daythey're dealing with, and so
(10:44):
every day they're trying to dothe right thing for and I love
the thought of the example rightoff the bat in terms of
organizations who have used thisapproach and been successful
with it.
Speaker 2 (10:55):
right, successful in the terms of business.
Successful, though, in what I'mhearing saying is also in the
impact that their business ishaving or that they want to have
.
One of the things I've heardbefore it's kind of purpose
before profits, or purposeprecedes profits, or a lot of
different ways to do that, butthose organizations that can see
the need that they fill andalso be profitable at the same
(11:18):
time can create something that'spretty powerful.
Speaker 1 (11:22):
Now I just want to say that's what I'm about.
I have a narrower sense ofpurpose than a lot of the people
who talk about purpose have.
For me, the purpose issomething that comes from the
leadership team's heart.
Why is it that we're treatingcustomers this way?
And so it's not something thatjust anybody on the street would
(11:42):
see.
That's a good purpose.
The business should attachitself to that, or should attach
itself to that.
I'm sorry to interrupt.
Speaker 2 (11:47):
No, no, no, that's okay.
That's more about hearing yourstory than hearing from me,
anyway in terms as we go forward.
So anytime you think you have adifferent perspective on, I'd
love to hear as you go forward,as you wrote the book and I know
it's not your first book but asyou wrote this book who were
(12:14):
you writing it to and why wasnow the right time to write this
book?
Speaker 1 (12:16):
Okay, I was writing it to three different audiences.
The first audience was leaders.
It's leaders of organizationslarger than small, organizations
right up through Fortune 500companies, but not market
shapers, not the Jeff Bezos ofthe world, not the you know, the
Anita Roddick's people likethat.
It's people who feelconstrained by the business
(12:37):
school education, by all theconsultants, to just focus on
operational success.
As I say, most of them, all theones I've encountered I've
encountered a few CFOs who justcare about operational success,
but almost everybody I'veencountered wants to create a
business that they can be proudof, ethically, that is, that
(12:59):
does the right things, thatstretches employees, the right
amount, that gives enoughattention, the right amount of
attention stretches employees,the right amount, that gives the
right amount of attention tocustomers and so forth, and not
more.
And they work on that and theythink about that every night.
That's what managers do.
Should I stretch that personmore?
Should we spend more time withthese customers?
How can we get more efficient?
How can we get more goods tothis other set of customers that
(13:23):
don't know about us?
These are all the kinds ofquestions that managers live
with, and they're all in themoral dimension.
They're not.
What can I do pragmatically tomake a little bit more money?
It's what is the right thing.
That's how people think aboutit.
And so that's the first grouppeople who are now thinking that
all they should do is produceoperational success, but are
(13:45):
hankering to do more.
That's the first group.
The second group is businessschool professors.
Those are the people who aremost likely to buy my book, and
so I wanted to satisfy them.
And the third group is virtuallyanybody professors or students
in the humanities and one of theambitions of the book is to
(14:07):
show that someone steeped in thehumanities like me has a role
to play in making our economyand marketplace more vibrant,
and to end years of thinking inthe humanities that business is
just about needs and fulfillingneeds, and the area where people
are free to design their livesare the arts, are politics, law
(14:33):
and so forth.
For me and this is sort of abillboard moment the moral
artists of today are today'sbusiness leaders, right, and so
I want to get that.
So if you want to help themoral artists of today, which is
what people in the humanitieswant to do get yourself into
(14:54):
business.
See how what you're doing helpsyou.
So those are the three segments.
I'm sorry for such a longwindow.
Speaker 2 (14:58):
No, that's.
Speaker 1 (14:59):
OK, I'll summarize Business leaders who are not
making their businesses intomasterpieces yet Teachers, mba
teachers and other businessschool teachers and people in
the humanities all over who wantto really make a difference.
Speaker 2 (15:17):
The timing of the book as well.
I mean, here in the Stateswe're in election year and I
think it comes up a lot in termsof even how we drive the
overall performance of a countryinside of business, but the
economies of scale and all thosethings that go on.
So I think, bringing that intoplay and again the term in the
subtitle, as I so uneloquentlylisted, was, you know, moral
(15:41):
risk-taking.
So what is moral risk-takingfrom your perspective?
Speaker 1 (15:47):
Okay, I'll give you the example of Anita Roddick,
since it's the easiest example,but just in general, I see
business masterpieces are thosethat are ethically distinctive,
that are morally distinctive,have a sense of what's right.
That's really tied in verydeeply to the business.
And if you do have a sense ofwhat's right and it's different
(16:10):
from your industry, as it willbe, if you're distinctive, then
you're going to do some thingsthat look shocking to your
industry to make this new moralorder come to life, and so moral
risk are those shocking things.
So let me give you the exampleAnita Roddick.
She started out with herhusband running two family
(16:31):
businesses, a hotel and arestaurant but she was angry at
what she called the beautybusiness.
And she was angry at the beautybusiness initially because she
saw them deceiving women.
They were making promises thatwomen could buy their products
and look younger, and basicallythe moral order of the business
(16:52):
that she saw was that everybodywanted to look better.
Youth was the only way oflooking better, and the way to
get people to try to look youngwas to make them feel anxious.
So how do you do that?
You have gorgeous models whoare leading the good life and
the implication is, you have tolook like this to lead a good
(17:13):
life.
And it drove Anita Roddickcrazy because not because they
were lying just straight away,but because all the women knew
that they were lying and theystill went there.
And so she wanted to create abusiness that made buying
(17:33):
products for your skin cosmeticsand other products for your
skin enjoyable and fun, and theycould do it compassionately and
you could appreciate your ownknowledge about who you were as
a woman.
And that was she was bringingin all sorts of traditional
understandings of how to takecare of yourself into the
(17:54):
business, but that wasessentially what she wanted to
do Now.
First moral risk she talked toher husband and it turns out her
daughters, but primarily herhusband into selling the two
businesses that they alreadyowned, getting a bank loan.
There's a whole story aboutthat, about how she didn't get
it first.
Her husband managed to get itand starting a business in an
(18:16):
industry where they knew nothing, nothing at all, that's a risk
to your family.
Obviously, you're going to lookirresponsible if you can't pull
it off, and so that was herfirst moral risk.
And a moral risk is where theaction you take is going to look
shocking to people around youirresponsible and if you don't
(18:40):
pull it off, people willevaluate you poorly.
You're a moral fool.
In this case, the business.
She started her business inBrighton, which is on the South
Sea coast of England, and itturned out to be successful.
However, nobody in the beautyindustry took it seriously.
(19:01):
For them it looked like it wassort of hippie women that were
going to go and try out theseproducts, but they didn't mind
losing that segment of themarket.
It was not a real profitablesegment of the market anyway and
this deeply disturbed her andshe said the only way I'm going
to be able to change thisindustry is if I show that I can
(19:24):
grow.
And she took that to herhusband and family.
Her husband was her CFO at thetime and you can just hear the
conversation.
I want to get more money from abank.
I want to grow the business.
Well, why do you want to growthe business?
Because we're not facing anycompetition from the big players
.
They're not trying to hammer us.
(19:44):
Now you're telling me that's abad thing.
And she was telling him it wasa bad thing and how important
was growth to her.
This is another shocking thing.
He went away on a business trip.
She sold half the shares in thecompany to a neighbor.
(20:04):
50% of the shares of thecompany to a neighbor to get the
money to start the nextbusiness.
Shares of the company to aneighbor to get the money to
start the next business.
Now, I'm not saying that wassomething that became a good
thing in general, but it showedhow important growth was to her,
that she was willing to takethat moral risk, which she took.
Her husband came back from thetrip, saw that the second store
(20:26):
was doing okay and went alongwith her and, as she said, was
doing okay and went along withher and, as she said, became her
rock from that point on.
So as a second, more so, andgrowth became.
We always think of the bodyshop, as is as this place.
It's very nice to work in, it'staking care of women's bodies,
but she was a businesswoman whocared massively about growth.
In fact, by the time she soldit it had more international
(20:49):
stores than any other retailbusiness in the UK and you
couldn't get a job in the bodyshop if you didn't care about
growth.
Her third moral risk was shereally wanted to cement that
this is a joyful experience thatpeople are exploring and she
basically let people sample allthey wanted in the shop and she
(21:10):
was teaching people.
It could have been thatteaching them to be shop become
shoplifters.
It turned out they caught themissionary spirit of the body
shop and it grew and grew andgrew and for me it's not such a
problem that the body shop is introuble now, years after she
left it, because there are lotsof other places like Blue,
mercury and.
Sephora and others who havetaken over that mantle and keep
(21:32):
it alive in the industry.
So that's a case and it'stypical.
Normally it takes three moralrisks to cement the new change
in the moral order.
Speaker 2 (21:44):
I think about that and as I listened through, just
as you went through, there was acurrent situation that exists
back into the world that we livein today and that's Elon Musk's
purchase of Twitter or X,whatever.
That is Definitely moral riskinside of that, how he would
proclaim that he's attempting tosay free speech as it exists
(22:06):
and some of those things thatare there Definitely a story in
that space.
Speaker 1 (22:09):
Right, it's mostly private money, but I would love
that story.
I've been reading Isaacson'sbiography of Elon Musk.
It seems to me he takes onemoral risk after another, after
another, but they're not welldocumented.
Nobody talks about it For me,what is the moral order he's
changing Now with this space,space company?
(22:32):
It's clearly he wants to bringback the pioneer spirit, where
we are going to mars and settingup a colony there and and he
apparently he talks about thathimself, but we don't know.
We we don't have all the riskstied in to doing that, but he
certainly changed.
And free speech is anotherplace, with Twitter, which is
(22:52):
now X, where he's working reallyhard to change what we consider
acceptable speech in the media.
Speaker 2 (23:02):
Hey listeners, I want to take a quick moment to share
something special with you.
Many of the topics anddiscussions we have on this
podcast are areas where Iprovide coaching and consulting
services for individuals andorganizations.
If you've been inspired by ourconversation and are seeking a
catalyst for change in your ownlife or within your team, I
invite you to visitcoachjohngallaghercom forward
(23:23):
slash free call to sign up for afree coaching call with me.
It's an opportunity for us toconnect, discuss your unique
challenges and explore howcoaching or consulting can
benefit you and your team.
Okay, let's get back to theshow.
Absolutely Well, let's kind ofalmost stay on that just a
little bit, and then I feel likeI'm a little bit all over.
(23:45):
But I think that moral risk isthere and what we're facing
today again as an economy, as abusiness world, is AI as well.
So how do you see moral riskassociated with what's happening
in the space of artificialintelligence as well?
Speaker 1 (24:01):
This is one where my co-authors love to talk.
I have to say, both HarrySoukis and Matthew Hancocks have
a lot to say about this.
For me, I don't know.
I try to get to know the worldin detail so I can talk about
what the actual judgments arethat people are making.
(24:23):
To me, the critical thing isthe people who are designing the
algorithms that run these largelanguage models.
We know from the experience ofGoogle that they know how to
make them biased.
They know how they can puttheir thumbs on the scale to
make certain results come out,and my guess is there are ways
(24:49):
to leave the be much morelaissez faire.
This is let happen, what maycome out.
People are saying that they'remostly doing that.
I believe that the moral risktaking is going to be in trying
to find a balance and thentrying to justify that balance,
and it's good, and people aregoing to be putting their jobs
(25:11):
on the line.
People are going to be sayingit's not entirely free speech.
I think we should have thisalgorithm, and the team around
them is going to say no, no, no,we're free speech.
No, no, no, that's going to betoo liberal or too conservative.
It's going to allow all sortsof voices we don't want there.
People are going to have totake stands on that and that's.
(25:34):
I think that's in AI and that'swith large language models.
Now the same kind of standsabout what counts as free speech
, what counts as safe.
How much risk are we going tohave?
And it'll get particularlydicey when we start bringing
artificial intelligence into themilitary.
(25:54):
And we all know we've all seenthe Terminator, so we know what
the ugly side of that is.
But again, I don't believe it'sthe moral risks are going to be
taken into high levels ofgovernment.
I believe the moral risks aregoing to be taken in business
management.
That's part of what I'm sayingDeciding what piece of
(26:17):
artificial intelligence is safeenough and then experimenting
with it and getting people tobuy in and see that it's safe
enough, and inventing a moralorder where we become
comfortable with a little bit ofexperimentation so long as it's
got guide rails, and whatprecisely that is.
I don't know, but that's whatthe leaders will determine.
They'll determine what lookslike sensible guide rails, what
(26:40):
looks like sensible exploration.
Speaker 2 (26:42):
It's going to be fascinating to watch because
even within the dilemma of themorals as you talk about it, who
gets to define what those guiderails are?
Let's go back to your book,because I think it's a topic.
I could drive down that exitramp for a long time.
When you think about theframework, the first step is
that moral risk-taking.
But you also have buildingtrust, listening for differences
(27:03):
and speaking truth to power asthe framework of creating this
masterpiece.
I won't you when I I won'tleave it, because if folks want
to purchase the book, we don'thave time to talk all about all
the topics.
Listening for difference howcan leaders effectively listen
to those diverse perspectives toput them into the
(27:24):
decision-making process?
Speaker 1 (27:29):
You know, the funny thing is there's in the
corporate world, there's so muchinsulation to keep leaders from
listening to those who disagreewith them that it's amazing.
And, moreover, there arecorporate communications
departments that keep leadersfrom saying things that would
(27:49):
get people in disagreement withthem.
And you're right.
So what do you do as aconsultant?
Let me answer it that way.
The first thing I always did toget leaders listening was to
get them, first of all,listening to their raving fan
customers.
Raving fan customers areinteresting because they love
(28:10):
the product.
They tend to love the productmore than the leaders themselves
.
So who are my raving fancustomers and how are they
different from me?
Now, generally, you can get thatthrough a marketing department.
You can get that through acorporate communications
department.
They're going to let the leaderspeak directly to the knife.
I do it in focus groups, butyou can do it in any number of
(28:32):
ways.
That's the first step and fromthere you take on a slightly
more challenging customer,slightly more challenging
customer, slightly morechallenging customer.
And if you hire consultants,you have the consultant go out
and speak to this stakeholderwho finds you objectionable
first, and you know, you get aread from the consultant of what
(28:55):
this person is like and thenyou're really going and checking
that lead.
But the point is, once you getthe leaders into these kinds of
conversations, leaders are Imean, the whole view is a lot of
people think leaders inbusiness are just
self-interested people.
I find them very sensitive andthey start making adjustments
(29:18):
based on tomorrow, based on whatthey hear today.
That's what I findextraordinary about these people
.
They're not just intoself-interest.
They hear something, theyinterpret it, they try something
out.
People might say they're toojust into self-interest.
They hear something, theyinterpret it, they try something
out.
People might say they're tooquick to act.
I think so long as they act ina more experimental way, I think
it's absolutely fine.
But the initial thing is getpeople listening to their raving
(29:41):
fans.
That's pretty easy to set upand the difference that their
raving fans have from them isthe first difference to get them
to hear.
Speaker 2 (29:50):
Love that Pull it from your customers.
Those are the ones that aregoing to know you best in terms
of what's happening outside,charles, your journey.
Speaker 1 (29:58):
They see the future.
They also see the future, andthat's the thing.
Okay, I'm sorry.
Speaker 2 (30:03):
No, and again, don't worry about interrupting.
That's not a problem at all.
When I think about yourpersonal journey, charles, as
I've read just a little bitabout you, even that journey is
a bit uncommon.
Generally, folks start out inoperations running a business,
and then they'll consult becauseof the successes that they've
had in running a business, andthen they'll teach with regards
(30:24):
to what they did.
Now you've gone in front ofthat and taught first as a
professor and then moved intothe space of consulting, writing
and ultimately running your ownbusiness as well as a
consultant.
Was there a moment or acatalyst for that change that
(30:45):
came for you?
Speaker 1 (30:47):
uh, yeah, well, I can tell you the moment and I can.
So the answer is yes, but butyou want to hear the details, so
uh, I'm a story guy.
Speaker 2 (30:59):
I like to hear the stories you know yeah, so I'm,
yeah, I am too.
Speaker 1 (31:02):
Uh, I'm just pausing because it's a slightly
complicated story.
So what I?
I started as a Shakespearescholar and for me, shakespeare
as a writer is all abouttransformation.
I mean, he himself went throughthree transformations.
He started out writing comediesand histories which were all
about desire and how we handlehuman desire, and he invented
(31:26):
modern desire.
That is, you could desiresomething that wasn't good for
you, or then you could beconfused about what you desire,
but you could never knowinglydesire something that wasn't
good for you Before then.
You could be confused aboutwhat you desire, but you could
never knowingly desire somethingthat wasn't good for you.
He invented that and hiscomedies play with that.
Then he started writing histragedies.
And what were you dying for?
What was worth dying for?
In his tragedy?
(31:46):
Your own life story.
And if you read any of his fourgreat tragedies, it's a little
bit more complicated and leery.
But Hamlet dies for his ownlife story, macbeth dies for his
own life story, othello diesfor his own life story, and
that's what it came to mean tobe a human being for a while, to
be a subject who had a lifestory.
That was important.
(32:06):
We were all like aShakespearean tragic character.
We wanted to make our storymatter.
And then he went into his thirdphase where he wrote the
romances and basically romancesa tragedy that gets undone, and
gets undone because you canchange your story.
He's an amazing writer and so Itaught Shakespeare as someone
(32:27):
teaching us how to transformourselves, teaching us how to
transform ourselves, and I wasinto transformation.
I started doing philosophy.
I've been doing philosophy withliterature all along.
I started writing more articlesin philosophy, wrote on
Heidegger and Heidegger'sunderstanding of changes in
history, and it was out of thatthat, working with the professor
(32:49):
I I mostly worked with, we gotan engagement with a management
consultant who had had aninterest in philosophy.
He wanted to say what is, howdoes a philosopher look at
innovation?
And so my first book,disclosing new worlds, written
with burke and fernando flores,is precisely that a
philosopher's view of innovation, and that innovation is not
(33:10):
just coming up with a new gadget, it's coming up with a change
in how we see things.
The big example was Gillette anddeveloping the disposable razor
blade.
Disposability is what came intoour culture then.
Yes, of course we've gotdisposable razor blades and
disposable other things, butdisposability used to be
something that was trivial, thatdidn't matter, and then
(33:32):
suddenly everything was supposedto be disposable.
So it was a cultural change.
And so that's how we looked atchange in that book.
And at that time Fernando, whowas running a consulting company
, said Charles, how would youlike to continue teaching
22-year-olds for the rest ofyour life about transformation,
(33:57):
when all they want is reallygood jobs and a little bit of
personal pleasure?
Or teaching CEOs who are goingto take what you bring, change
their organizations, changepeople and change the world, and
(34:17):
I'll pay you more.
So that it was actually verydifficult, because I'm somebody
who wants to publish.
I'm someone who likes academicpublication.
I loved being in front of aclassroom speaking, but I made
the switch then.
Speaker 2 (34:36):
Excellent.
Thank you for sharing that.
I can see how that worked interms of understanding,
especially working with peoplewho were there watching and
observing how your impactmight've been greater in the
space that you're in.
Charles your book again.
Leadership as MasterpieceCreation.
Folks are going, charles yourbook again.
Leadership as masterpiececreation.
Folks are going to read yourbook and then they're going to
set it on a bookshelf Like we'vegot behind us for those of you
(34:57):
watching on YouTube and they'regoing to look at their bookshelf
a year later and see that booksitting there.
What do you want them to think?
What do you want them to do ayear later after reading your
book?
Speaker 1 (35:09):
I want them to look at that book and say it inspired
me to speak more courageously,to tell truth to power and, on
the basis of that, take a moralrisk or two.
In my area, my department, mysmall unit of stretching people,
(35:31):
offering something new tocustomers, whatever a risk where
people thought I was insane ornot responsible, and I made it
happen and I'm going to do itagain.
And I'm going to do it againand I hope one day to be on the
path of masterpiece creation.
I should say that all theexamples in the book we try to
(35:53):
choose the most attractiveexamples in the book I know one
leader and I've worked with oneleader who's been on the road to
creating a masterpiece for thelast 40 years.
It doesn't happen overnightMasterpiece creation and working
on creating a masterpiece andhe's just about got it, by the
way, and now he's looking forsuccessors and everything else
(36:15):
that comes with having amasterpiece.
That makes your life morevaluable to you and to your
employees.
Hey, you try something.
It doesn't always work.
You take a risk.
Sometimes risks don't pay off,sometimes they fail.
But he's been doing it for 40years and he's about got his
masterpiece established and hewould say that he's had a
(36:37):
fantastic life and business.
So I want people engaged inthat Everybody's not going to
say I read Charles Finoz's bookand three years later my
business became a masterpiece.
I want them to be on the road,as I say in the book.
I want the air that theybreathe to feel like alpine air,
the wine that they drink totaste better than the wine that
(36:59):
they drank before and theirlives to be better.
And when you create a moralorder in your business, you know
the business that much more.
It is like your work of poetryand you love it.
Speaker 2 (37:13):
Thank you, Charles.
I want to ask just two morequestions as we finish up today.
Our time has gone by reallyfast.
I can't believe how fast it'sgone.
The best way for folks toconnect with you, and where do
you also want them to go topurchase a copy of your book?
Speaker 1 (37:28):
Okay, well the best, the easiest way to go to
purchase a copy of your book.
Okay, well, the best, theeasiest way to connect to me is
LinkedIn, slash in slash,charles Spinoza.
And if you do LinkedIn, charlesSpinoza, I'm pretty sure any
browser is going to bring you tomy page.
You can get that.
I also have my personal emailaddress on that page and I'm
happy to take email from peopleusing that page.
(37:50):
Where to get the book?
The easiest place to get thebook and I just saw recently it
has a discount is Amazon.
However, barnes Noble had itand there are lots of other
places that have it.
Speaker 2 (38:03):
I'll put a link to both of them in the show notes.
Charles, I really appreciateyour time that you've invested
with the listeners of theUncommon Leader podcast.
I'll finish you off with thesame last question give you the
last word that you can provideadvice to them as they listen
through.
But I'll give you a billboard.
You can put it right there inEast Manhattan.
There can be a lot of peoplethat see it in Manhattan, but
you can put any message on itthat you want to.
(38:24):
What's the message that you puton that billboard and why do
you put that message on there?
Speaker 1 (38:29):
Thank you for asking the second question.
The message is today's businessleaders are our moral artists
or, we could add, who will giveus our future?
(38:50):
Why do I put that?
Because it goes against thegrain of so much that people
think about business leaders.
That's demeaning.
The first thing is that they'reself-interested.
The second thing is, well, theycare about various stakeholders
, like their customers, theirshareholders, their employees,
but they care in a kind oflegalistic way.
They're going to treat themwell by the average
(39:10):
understanding that people haveas well, and now we want them to
adopt some purpose, but it's apurpose that any man in the
street will see as a goodpurpose.
It's not their purpose, it'snot their use of an abused word,
their authentic purpose.
I want us to start seeingbusiness leaders for what I
believe they are, for what allmy experience has shown.
(39:31):
They are as people with moralimaginations, who are morally
sensitive, who are designing theways to live that we will live.
And just two examples Imentioned to you earlier Google
there's a moral order withpsychological safety and
following your dreams.
In fact, getting paid to followyour dreams.
(39:51):
That's what a good life is.
Doing, that is what the goodthing is.
Amazon, where you're relentless, where you're constantly
raising the bar.
No psychological safety there.
Very different moral orders,both I think admirable, both I
think we could admire, bothcreated by their leaders.
Go out and create a moral order.
Speaker 2 (40:13):
Charles, thank you so much for your time that you
invested and for those wholistened all the way through.
I know you've had value tothose that have listened.
Charles, I wish you the bestgoing forward.
Speaker 1 (40:24):
Thank you very much, John.
Thank you for the opportunityto speak to you and your
audience.
Thank you for the questions.
I really appreciate it and lookforward to anybody trying to
reach out to me and I willrespond.
Speaker 2 (40:36):
Thank you Great, Excellent.
Thank you, Charles.
And that wraps up anotherepisode of the Uncommon Leader
podcast.
Thanks for tuning in today.
If you found value in thisepisode, I encourage you to
share it with your friends,colleagues or anyone else who
could benefit from the insightsand inspiration we've shared.
Also, if you have a moment, I'dgreatly appreciate if you could
(40:57):
leave a rating and review onyour favorite podcast platform.
Your feedback not only helps usto improve, but it also helps
others discover the podcast andjoin our growing community of
uncommon leaders.
Until next time, go and growchampions.
I see business masterpieces are those that are
ethically distinctive, that aremorally distinctive, have a
sense of what's right.
That's really tied in verydeeply to the business.
And if you do have a sense ofwhat's right and it's different
from your industry, as it willbe if you're distinctive, then
you're going to do some thingsthat look shocking to your
(00:21):
industry look shocking to yourindustry.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Hey, uncommon Leaders , welcome back.
This is the Uncommon LeaderPodcast and I'm your host, john
Gallagher.
In today's episode, I'm excitedto have Charles Spinoza join us
to discuss themes from his bookLeadership as a Masterpiece
Creation.
Charles brings a wealth ofexperience from his challenging
childhood in rural New Jersey,where he defied the odds to
excel in academia, to hisextensive career as a consultant
, improving operationalefficiency and profitability
(00:51):
through humanistic values.
We'll explore his journey fromShakespeare scholar to
management consultant, divinginto his innovative approach to
leadership and business growththrough moral risk-taking growth
through moral risk-taking.
This episode is packed withinsights on how leaders can
listen better, engage withdiverse perspectives and build
organizations that not onlythrive but also enrich lives.
So let's get started.
(01:12):
Charles Spinoza, welcome to theUncommon Leader Podcast.
I'm real excited about ourconversation today.
How are you doing today?
Speaker 1 (01:24):
I'm doing very well, John.
Thank you for having me here.
I look forward to talking aboutwhat will turn out to be the
themes of my book, and I hopeyour audience loves it as well.
Speaker 2 (01:35):
I think the listeners are going to get a lot out of
it.
I know before we hit the recordbutton we had some good
conversation going already andit's one of those things like I
need the B-roll to add it in.
So we'll try to reproduce someof that conversation as we go
forward.
But I'll start you off the sameway.
I start all the guests on theUncommon Leader podcast and I
said tell me a story from yourchildhood that still impacts who
you are today, as a leader oras a person.
Speaker 1 (01:57):
I'm delighted to do that and, by the way, I want to
say I think that's the best wayto get to know leaders right
from the get-go.
I call that in my practice, Icall that what's your
fundamental story, foundationalstory, and it's the story you
have to change as you evolve asa leader.
But you need to know what it is.
So here's mine.
It shows who I am, blemishesand virtues alike.
(02:21):
I grew up in New Jersey in afamily that wasn't really fully
functional.
My parents did not get along atall and in my childhood we
lived in a rural part of NewJersey and I'd wander around in
the woods and I was sort of awandering, sort of like a cloud,
(02:43):
wandering all over the person.
I started school and was verymuch the same way wandered
around, did my best, likedschool by and large, made some
friends, but there was nothingvery, very deep and binding.
Then in fifth grade this is theSputnik era we all took IQ
tests and my parents wereeducators.
(03:07):
They totally believed in IQtests at the time and I did
terribly on it.
I came out in a way that wasthen called mentally retarded
and moved away from my friendsand the classes that I was in
and put in the class of otherpeople who had tested the same
way the mentally retarded classand I was horrified.
(03:31):
I was not like the other peoplein that class.
I could see that I had neverthought of myself as having
intellectual pretensions this isfifth grade, after all but I
determined that I was.
I had to get out of it and Iasked my parents what I could do
(03:56):
, and my father said well, youknow, maybe you can become a
carpenter one day.
You really work hard.
I said no, that's not what Iwant.
My mother said well, it's notlikely.
You can do very much, but tryreading.
And so that was it.
That was exactly what I did.
I demanded my parents take me tothe local bookstore, which was
some drive away.
There was no Amazon, no easyway of getting books, and in
(04:19):
those days this is the early 60sFreud showed up as the leading
intellectual, and so I readeverything by Freud and by some
of his followers, eric Krohn,that I could.
And I brought this into myconversations with my teachers
and it did not go over that well, but they saw that I was
(04:40):
unusual.
I was unusual.
I would tell teachers that theywere acting in the way they
were because of some disturbancethey had and seeing their
primal scene with their parentswhen they were young and was
touched on insanity.
So my first attempt to get outdidn't work.
But I came to see that in thosedays being able to do really
(05:02):
well in math and science was theticket.
People thought of those asobjective, they thought of those
as really, and so I threwmyself into doing math and
science.
I became a fiercely well,fiercely intellectual because
nobody expected it or wanted itin the classes I was in and by
(05:24):
eighth grade I was released intothe advanced courses and that
struggle has defined me.
I do have, you know, my youth.
I was fiercely intellectual.
I have modified that over theyears.
I'm something of an explainernow, I hope, a generous
explainer, although most peoplesay no, charles, you're still a
(05:45):
challenging explainer.
Now, I hope, a generousexplainer.
Although most people say, no,charles, you're still a
challenging explainer, youhaven't left it that far.
They might be right, I can'ttell.
But that's me.
I don't think I have the chipon my shoulder that I had before
.
If not, if I do, it's much,much lighter and and I'm trying
to find out what's true andwhat's interesting.
Speaker 2 (06:08):
I always love the stories of childhood and how
they how they connect andcertainly, as I look at a little
bit of your past, I can I canunderstand, uh, how that
connects.
You know, uh, many of thestories that I talk with folks
are folks that overcame stories,just like whether it was deaths
in their family or stutteringas a child and how someone
(06:28):
became very successful andsometime it takes that to
overcome.
In fact, auntie Ann Byler wasanother guest and the name of
her book was Overcome and Lead.
Her tragedy occurred later inlife in terms of some of those
things, but they are the thingsthat frame us and, as we chatted
about beforehand, sometimeswe're there to help the person
that we used to be, to get themthrough situations like that.
(06:50):
So you went from that challengeclass in fifth grade to the
advanced classes after eighthgrade.
You ultimately ended up being aprofessor and we're going to
talk about that as well.
But really what we're heretoday is to talk about,
ultimately, how you took some ofthat reading, if you will, and
talk about that and turned itinto your consulting practice as
(07:11):
well to help business.
Name your book.
What Business Leaders Can Learnfrom the Humanities About Moral
Risk Taking, that's thesubtopic.
Speaker 1 (07:18):
But Leadership as Masterpiece Creation.
Speaker 2 (07:22):
And that is something that, first of all, I found as
a fascinating title, and it doesconnect in terms of when you're
listening through it but amasterpiece creation.
So let's start right therebefore we can get into the why
and who you wrote it for.
How do you define what that isas a masterpiece creation in
terms of the?
Speaker 1 (07:41):
title.
That's my basic disposition.
For years I was a consultant.
For 27 years I was a consultant.
What you do as a consultant isyou try to help people become
more operationally efficient,operationally profitable,
productive, gain new clients,new revenue, and I always did it
by trying to help them givetheir employees better lives or
(08:05):
give their customers betterlives.
So that was my past in thehumanities, but I was focused on
operations, as are otherconsultants, and good businesses
look like high performingbusinesses that have high stock
premiums and that's it.
But I realized that that wasnot exactly what the leaders
(08:27):
wanted.
One of my best cases ever thatwas written up in the California
Management Review, blue OceanStrategy, prahalad's book on the
pyramid and so forth was Cemex.
We invented a way of sellingcement to poorer Mexicans and we
did it by bridging the valuesbetween middle class Mexicans
(08:49):
who ran CEMEX and poorerMexicans.
Poorer Mexicans at the timeloved their neighborhoods, loved
warmth, didn't really seefinancial responsibility as
important.
Planning was seen as evil.
Important Planning was seen asevil.
These are all things that themiddle class Mexicans like.
How did they save money?
(09:11):
They didn't save money.
What they do is they formlittle clubs.
They pull their money alltogether and one person would
get the money from the club andthey change who got it each week
.
We took that and we made thatinto a cement tonda.
That's what they called thoseclubs.
The company Cemex doubled itsprofitability from this segment.
Some places it tripled itsprofitability, the segment
itself.
They built their homes cheaperand faster, significantly faster
(09:33):
.
So it was win-win totally, andbasic practice stayed in the
company for about 17 years.
But the Cemex managers didn'tlike it.
Why didn't they like it?
They wanted their customers tobecome like middle-class
Mexicans.
They didn't want to be servingthis community.
(09:54):
They had a sense of what theright way to be was.
Now you would think that Ishould have gotten that right
away, given my background in thehumanities, but no, I was
caught up in consulting, tryingto get operational efficiency.
It was a great case morecustomers, more profits, better
life for customers, and it tookme a very long time to realize
(10:22):
that what people who leadbusinesses want is to create a
world, create an organizationthat does what it considers the
right thing for its employees,the right thing for its
customers, the right thing forits suppliers, the right thing
for its shareholders.
Some go to other stakeholdergroups beyond that, but those
are the core that every daythey're dealing with, and so
(10:44):
every day they're trying to dothe right thing for and I love
the thought of the example rightoff the bat in terms of
organizations who have used thisapproach and been successful
with it.
Speaker 2 (10:55):
right, successful in the terms of business.
Successful, though, in what I'mhearing saying is also in the
impact that their business ishaving or that they want to have
.
One of the things I've heardbefore it's kind of purpose
before profits, or purposeprecedes profits, or a lot of
different ways to do that, butthose organizations that can see
the need that they fill andalso be profitable at the same
(11:18):
time can create something that'spretty powerful.
Speaker 1 (11:22):
Now I just want to say that's what I'm about.
I have a narrower sense ofpurpose than a lot of the people
who talk about purpose have.
For me, the purpose issomething that comes from the
leadership team's heart.
Why is it that we're treatingcustomers this way?
And so it's not something thatjust anybody on the street would
(11:42):
see.
That's a good purpose.
The business should attachitself to that, or should attach
itself to that.
I'm sorry to interrupt.
Speaker 2 (11:47):
No, no, no, that's okay.
That's more about hearing yourstory than hearing from me,
anyway in terms as we go forward.
So anytime you think you have adifferent perspective on, I'd
love to hear as you go forward,as you wrote the book and I know
it's not your first book but asyou wrote this book who were
(12:14):
you writing it to and why wasnow the right time to write this
book?
Speaker 1 (12:16):
Okay, I was writing it to three different audiences.
The first audience was leaders.
It's leaders of organizationslarger than small, organizations
right up through Fortune 500companies, but not market
shapers, not the Jeff Bezos ofthe world, not the you know, the
Anita Roddick's people likethat.
It's people who feelconstrained by the business
(12:37):
school education, by all theconsultants, to just focus on
operational success.
As I say, most of them, all theones I've encountered I've
encountered a few CFOs who justcare about operational success,
but almost everybody I'veencountered wants to create a
business that they can be proudof, ethically, that is, that
(12:59):
does the right things, thatstretches employees, the right
amount, that gives enoughattention, the right amount of
attention stretches employees,the right amount, that gives the
right amount of attention tocustomers and so forth, and not
more.
And they work on that and theythink about that every night.
That's what managers do.
Should I stretch that personmore?
Should we spend more time withthese customers?
How can we get more efficient?
How can we get more goods tothis other set of customers that
(13:23):
don't know about us?
These are all the kinds ofquestions that managers live
with, and they're all in themoral dimension.
They're not.
What can I do pragmatically tomake a little bit more money?
It's what is the right thing.
That's how people think aboutit.
And so that's the first grouppeople who are now thinking that
all they should do is produceoperational success, but are
(13:45):
hankering to do more.
That's the first group.
The second group is businessschool professors.
Those are the people who aremost likely to buy my book, and
so I wanted to satisfy them.
And the third group is virtuallyanybody professors or students
in the humanities and one of theambitions of the book is to
(14:07):
show that someone steeped in thehumanities like me has a role
to play in making our economyand marketplace more vibrant,
and to end years of thinking inthe humanities that business is
just about needs and fulfillingneeds, and the area where people
are free to design their livesare the arts, are politics, law
(14:33):
and so forth.
For me and this is sort of abillboard moment the moral
artists of today are today'sbusiness leaders, right, and so
I want to get that.
So if you want to help themoral artists of today, which is
what people in the humanitieswant to do get yourself into
(14:54):
business.
See how what you're doing helpsyou.
So those are the three segments.
I'm sorry for such a longwindow.
Speaker 2 (14:58):
No, that's.
Speaker 1 (14:59):
OK, I'll summarize Business leaders who are not
making their businesses intomasterpieces yet Teachers, mba
teachers and other businessschool teachers and people in
the humanities all over who wantto really make a difference.
Speaker 2 (15:17):
The timing of the book as well.
I mean, here in the Stateswe're in election year and I
think it comes up a lot in termsof even how we drive the
overall performance of a countryinside of business, but the
economies of scale and all thosethings that go on.
So I think, bringing that intoplay and again the term in the
subtitle, as I so uneloquentlylisted, was, you know, moral
(15:41):
risk-taking.
So what is moral risk-takingfrom your perspective?
Speaker 1 (15:47):
Okay, I'll give you the example of Anita Roddick,
since it's the easiest example,but just in general, I see
business masterpieces are thosethat are ethically distinctive,
that are morally distinctive,have a sense of what's right.
That's really tied in verydeeply to the business.
And if you do have a sense ofwhat's right and it's different
(16:10):
from your industry, as it willbe, if you're distinctive, then
you're going to do some thingsthat look shocking to your
industry to make this new moralorder come to life, and so moral
risk are those shocking things.
So let me give you the exampleAnita Roddick.
She started out with herhusband running two family
(16:31):
businesses, a hotel and arestaurant but she was angry at
what she called the beautybusiness.
And she was angry at the beautybusiness initially because she
saw them deceiving women.
They were making promises thatwomen could buy their products
and look younger, and basicallythe moral order of the business
(16:52):
that she saw was that everybodywanted to look better.
Youth was the only way oflooking better, and the way to
get people to try to look youngwas to make them feel anxious.
So how do you do that?
You have gorgeous models whoare leading the good life and
the implication is, you have tolook like this to lead a good
(17:13):
life.
And it drove Anita Roddickcrazy because not because they
were lying just straight away,but because all the women knew
that they were lying and theystill went there.
And so she wanted to create abusiness that made buying
(17:33):
products for your skin cosmeticsand other products for your
skin enjoyable and fun, and theycould do it compassionately and
you could appreciate your ownknowledge about who you were as
a woman.
And that was she was bringingin all sorts of traditional
understandings of how to takecare of yourself into the
(17:54):
business, but that wasessentially what she wanted to
do Now.
First moral risk she talked toher husband and it turns out her
daughters, but primarily herhusband into selling the two
businesses that they alreadyowned, getting a bank loan.
There's a whole story aboutthat, about how she didn't get
it first.
Her husband managed to get itand starting a business in an
(18:16):
industry where they knew nothing, nothing at all, that's a risk
to your family.
Obviously, you're going to lookirresponsible if you can't pull
it off, and so that was herfirst moral risk.
And a moral risk is where theaction you take is going to look
shocking to people around youirresponsible and if you don't
(18:40):
pull it off, people willevaluate you poorly.
You're a moral fool.
In this case, the business.
She started her business inBrighton, which is on the South
Sea coast of England, and itturned out to be successful.
However, nobody in the beautyindustry took it seriously.
(19:01):
For them it looked like it wassort of hippie women that were
going to go and try out theseproducts, but they didn't mind
losing that segment of themarket.
It was not a real profitablesegment of the market anyway and
this deeply disturbed her andshe said the only way I'm going
to be able to change thisindustry is if I show that I can
(19:24):
grow.
And she took that to herhusband and family.
Her husband was her CFO at thetime and you can just hear the
conversation.
I want to get more money from abank.
I want to grow the business.
Well, why do you want to growthe business?
Because we're not facing anycompetition from the big players
.
They're not trying to hammer us.
(19:44):
Now you're telling me that's abad thing.
And she was telling him it wasa bad thing and how important
was growth to her.
This is another shocking thing.
He went away on a business trip.
She sold half the shares in thecompany to a neighbor.
(20:04):
50% of the shares of thecompany to a neighbor to get the
money to start the nextbusiness.
Shares of the company to aneighbor to get the money to
start the next business.
Now, I'm not saying that wassomething that became a good
thing in general, but it showedhow important growth was to her,
that she was willing to takethat moral risk, which she took.
Her husband came back from thetrip, saw that the second store
(20:26):
was doing okay and went alongwith her and, as she said, was
doing okay and went along withher and, as she said, became her
rock from that point on.
So as a second, more so, andgrowth became.
We always think of the bodyshop, as is as this place.
It's very nice to work in, it'staking care of women's bodies,
but she was a businesswoman whocared massively about growth.
In fact, by the time she soldit it had more international
(20:49):
stores than any other retailbusiness in the UK and you
couldn't get a job in the bodyshop if you didn't care about
growth.
Her third moral risk was shereally wanted to cement that
this is a joyful experience thatpeople are exploring and she
basically let people sample allthey wanted in the shop and she
(21:10):
was teaching people.
It could have been thatteaching them to be shop become
shoplifters.
It turned out they caught themissionary spirit of the body
shop and it grew and grew andgrew and for me it's not such a
problem that the body shop is introuble now, years after she
left it, because there are lotsof other places like Blue,
mercury and.
Sephora and others who havetaken over that mantle and keep
(21:32):
it alive in the industry.
So that's a case and it'stypical.
Normally it takes three moralrisks to cement the new change
in the moral order.
Speaker 2 (21:44):
I think about that and as I listened through, just
as you went through, there was acurrent situation that exists
back into the world that we livein today and that's Elon Musk's
purchase of Twitter or X,whatever.
That is Definitely moral riskinside of that, how he would
proclaim that he's attempting tosay free speech as it exists
(22:06):
and some of those things thatare there Definitely a story in
that space.
Speaker 1 (22:09):
Right, it's mostly private money, but I would love
that story.
I've been reading Isaacson'sbiography of Elon Musk.
It seems to me he takes onemoral risk after another, after
another, but they're not welldocumented.
Nobody talks about it For me,what is the moral order he's
changing Now with this space,space company?
(22:32):
It's clearly he wants to bringback the pioneer spirit, where
we are going to mars and settingup a colony there and and he
apparently he talks about thathimself, but we don't know.
We we don't have all the riskstied in to doing that, but he
certainly changed.
And free speech is anotherplace, with Twitter, which is
(22:52):
now X, where he's working reallyhard to change what we consider
acceptable speech in the media.
Speaker 2 (23:02):
Hey listeners, I want to take a quick moment to share
something special with you.
Many of the topics anddiscussions we have on this
podcast are areas where Iprovide coaching and consulting
services for individuals andorganizations.
If you've been inspired by ourconversation and are seeking a
catalyst for change in your ownlife or within your team, I
invite you to visitcoachjohngallaghercom forward
(23:23):
slash free call to sign up for afree coaching call with me.
It's an opportunity for us toconnect, discuss your unique
challenges and explore howcoaching or consulting can
benefit you and your team.
Okay, let's get back to theshow.
Absolutely Well, let's kind ofalmost stay on that just a
little bit, and then I feel likeI'm a little bit all over.
(23:45):
But I think that moral risk isthere and what we're facing
today again as an economy, as abusiness world, is AI as well.
So how do you see moral riskassociated with what's happening
in the space of artificialintelligence as well?
Speaker 1 (24:01):
This is one where my co-authors love to talk.
I have to say, both HarrySoukis and Matthew Hancocks have
a lot to say about this.
For me, I don't know.
I try to get to know the worldin detail so I can talk about
what the actual judgments arethat people are making.
(24:23):
To me, the critical thing isthe people who are designing the
algorithms that run these largelanguage models.
We know from the experience ofGoogle that they know how to
make them biased.
They know how they can puttheir thumbs on the scale to
make certain results come out,and my guess is there are ways
(24:49):
to leave the be much morelaissez faire.
This is let happen, what maycome out.
People are saying that they'remostly doing that.
I believe that the moral risktaking is going to be in trying
to find a balance and thentrying to justify that balance,
and it's good, and people aregoing to be putting their jobs
(25:11):
on the line.
People are going to be sayingit's not entirely free speech.
I think we should have thisalgorithm, and the team around
them is going to say no, no, no,we're free speech.
No, no, no, that's going to betoo liberal or too conservative.
It's going to allow all sortsof voices we don't want there.
People are going to have totake stands on that and that's.
(25:34):
I think that's in AI and that'swith large language models.
Now the same kind of standsabout what counts as free speech
, what counts as safe.
How much risk are we going tohave?
And it'll get particularlydicey when we start bringing
artificial intelligence into themilitary.
(25:54):
And we all know we've all seenthe Terminator, so we know what
the ugly side of that is.
But again, I don't believe it'sthe moral risks are going to be
taken into high levels ofgovernment.
I believe the moral risks aregoing to be taken in business
management.
That's part of what I'm sayingDeciding what piece of
(26:17):
artificial intelligence is safeenough and then experimenting
with it and getting people tobuy in and see that it's safe
enough, and inventing a moralorder where we become
comfortable with a little bit ofexperimentation so long as it's
got guide rails, and whatprecisely that is.
I don't know, but that's whatthe leaders will determine.
They'll determine what lookslike sensible guide rails, what
(26:40):
looks like sensible exploration.
Speaker 2 (26:42):
It's going to be fascinating to watch because
even within the dilemma of themorals as you talk about it, who
gets to define what those guiderails are?
Let's go back to your book,because I think it's a topic.
I could drive down that exitramp for a long time.
When you think about theframework, the first step is
that moral risk-taking.
But you also have buildingtrust, listening for differences
(27:03):
and speaking truth to power asthe framework of creating this
masterpiece.
I won't you when I I won'tleave it, because if folks want
to purchase the book, we don'thave time to talk all about all
the topics.
Listening for difference howcan leaders effectively listen
to those diverse perspectives toput them into the
(27:24):
decision-making process?
Speaker 1 (27:29):
You know, the funny thing is there's in the
corporate world, there's so muchinsulation to keep leaders from
listening to those who disagreewith them that it's amazing.
And, moreover, there arecorporate communications
departments that keep leadersfrom saying things that would
(27:49):
get people in disagreement withthem.
And you're right.
So what do you do as aconsultant?
Let me answer it that way.
The first thing I always did toget leaders listening was to
get them, first of all,listening to their raving fan
customers.
Raving fan customers areinteresting because they love
(28:10):
the product.
They tend to love the productmore than the leaders themselves
.
So who are my raving fancustomers and how are they
different from me?
Now, generally, you can get thatthrough a marketing department.
You can get that through acorporate communications
department.
They're going to let the leaderspeak directly to the knife.
I do it in focus groups, butyou can do it in any number of
(28:32):
ways.
That's the first step and fromthere you take on a slightly
more challenging customer,slightly more challenging
customer, slightly morechallenging customer.
And if you hire consultants,you have the consultant go out
and speak to this stakeholderwho finds you objectionable
first, and you know, you get aread from the consultant of what
(28:55):
this person is like and thenyou're really going and checking
that lead.
But the point is, once you getthe leaders into these kinds of
conversations, leaders are Imean, the whole view is a lot of
people think leaders inbusiness are just
self-interested people.
I find them very sensitive andthey start making adjustments
(29:18):
based on tomorrow, based on whatthey hear today.
That's what I findextraordinary about these people
.
They're not just intoself-interest.
They hear something, theyinterpret it, they try something
out.
People might say they're toojust into self-interest.
They hear something, theyinterpret it, they try something
out.
People might say they're tooquick to act.
I think so long as they act ina more experimental way, I think
it's absolutely fine.
But the initial thing is getpeople listening to their raving
(29:41):
fans.
That's pretty easy to set upand the difference that their
raving fans have from them isthe first difference to get them
to hear.
Speaker 2 (29:50):
Love that Pull it from your customers.
Those are the ones that aregoing to know you best in terms
of what's happening outside,charles, your journey.
Speaker 1 (29:58):
They see the future.
They also see the future, andthat's the thing.
Okay, I'm sorry.
Speaker 2 (30:03):
No, and again, don't worry about interrupting.
That's not a problem at all.
When I think about yourpersonal journey, charles, as
I've read just a little bitabout you, even that journey is
a bit uncommon.
Generally, folks start out inoperations running a business,
and then they'll consult becauseof the successes that they've
had in running a business, andthen they'll teach with regards
(30:24):
to what they did.
Now you've gone in front ofthat and taught first as a
professor and then moved intothe space of consulting, writing
and ultimately running your ownbusiness as well as a
consultant.
Was there a moment or acatalyst for that change that
(30:45):
came for you?
Speaker 1 (30:47):
uh, yeah, well, I can tell you the moment and I can.
So the answer is yes, but butyou want to hear the details, so
uh, I'm a story guy.
Speaker 2 (30:59):
I like to hear the stories you know yeah, so I'm,
yeah, I am too.
Speaker 1 (31:02):
Uh, I'm just pausing because it's a slightly
complicated story.
So what I?
I started as a Shakespearescholar and for me, shakespeare
as a writer is all abouttransformation.
I mean, he himself went throughthree transformations.
He started out writing comediesand histories which were all
about desire and how we handlehuman desire, and he invented
(31:26):
modern desire.
That is, you could desiresomething that wasn't good for
you, or then you could beconfused about what you desire,
but you could never knowinglydesire something that wasn't
good for you Before then.
You could be confused aboutwhat you desire, but you could
never knowingly desire somethingthat wasn't good for you.
He invented that and hiscomedies play with that.
Then he started writing histragedies.
And what were you dying for?
What was worth dying for?
In his tragedy?
(31:46):
Your own life story.
And if you read any of his fourgreat tragedies, it's a little
bit more complicated and leery.
But Hamlet dies for his ownlife story, macbeth dies for his
own life story, othello diesfor his own life story, and
that's what it came to mean tobe a human being for a while, to
be a subject who had a lifestory.
That was important.
(32:06):
We were all like aShakespearean tragic character.
We wanted to make our storymatter.
And then he went into his thirdphase where he wrote the
romances and basically romancesa tragedy that gets undone, and
gets undone because you canchange your story.
He's an amazing writer and so Itaught Shakespeare as someone
(32:27):
teaching us how to transformourselves, teaching us how to
transform ourselves, and I wasinto transformation.
I started doing philosophy.
I've been doing philosophy withliterature all along.
I started writing more articlesin philosophy, wrote on
Heidegger and Heidegger'sunderstanding of changes in
history, and it was out of thatthat, working with the professor
(32:49):
I I mostly worked with, we gotan engagement with a management
consultant who had had aninterest in philosophy.
He wanted to say what is, howdoes a philosopher look at
innovation?
And so my first book,disclosing new worlds, written
with burke and fernando flores,is precisely that a
philosopher's view of innovation, and that innovation is not
(33:10):
just coming up with a new gadget, it's coming up with a change
in how we see things.
The big example was Gillette anddeveloping the disposable razor
blade.
Disposability is what came intoour culture then.
Yes, of course we've gotdisposable razor blades and
disposable other things, butdisposability used to be
something that was trivial, thatdidn't matter, and then
(33:32):
suddenly everything was supposedto be disposable.
So it was a cultural change.
And so that's how we looked atchange in that book.
And at that time Fernando, whowas running a consulting company
, said Charles, how would youlike to continue teaching
22-year-olds for the rest ofyour life about transformation,
(33:57):
when all they want is reallygood jobs and a little bit of
personal pleasure?
Or teaching CEOs who are goingto take what you bring, change
their organizations, changepeople and change the world, and
(34:17):
I'll pay you more.
So that it was actually verydifficult, because I'm somebody
who wants to publish.
I'm someone who likes academicpublication.
I loved being in front of aclassroom speaking, but I made
the switch then.
Speaker 2 (34:36):
Excellent.
Thank you for sharing that.
I can see how that worked interms of understanding,
especially working with peoplewho were there watching and
observing how your impactmight've been greater in the
space that you're in.
Charles your book again.
Leadership as MasterpieceCreation.
Folks are going, charles yourbook again.
Leadership as masterpiececreation.
Folks are going to read yourbook and then they're going to
set it on a bookshelf Like we'vegot behind us for those of you
(34:57):
watching on YouTube and they'regoing to look at their bookshelf
a year later and see that booksitting there.
What do you want them to think?
What do you want them to do ayear later after reading your
book?
Speaker 1 (35:09):
I want them to look at that book and say it inspired
me to speak more courageously,to tell truth to power and, on
the basis of that, take a moralrisk or two.
In my area, my department, mysmall unit of stretching people,
(35:31):
offering something new tocustomers, whatever a risk where
people thought I was insane ornot responsible, and I made it
happen and I'm going to do itagain.
And I'm going to do it againand I hope one day to be on the
path of masterpiece creation.
I should say that all theexamples in the book we try to
(35:53):
choose the most attractiveexamples in the book I know one
leader and I've worked with oneleader who's been on the road to
creating a masterpiece for thelast 40 years.
It doesn't happen overnightMasterpiece creation and working
on creating a masterpiece andhe's just about got it, by the
way, and now he's looking forsuccessors and everything else
(36:15):
that comes with having amasterpiece.
That makes your life morevaluable to you and to your
employees.
Hey, you try something.
It doesn't always work.
You take a risk.
Sometimes risks don't pay off,sometimes they fail.
But he's been doing it for 40years and he's about got his
masterpiece established and hewould say that he's had a
(36:37):
fantastic life and business.
So I want people engaged inthat Everybody's not going to
say I read Charles Finoz's bookand three years later my
business became a masterpiece.
I want them to be on the road,as I say in the book.
I want the air that theybreathe to feel like alpine air,
the wine that they drink totaste better than the wine that
(36:59):
they drank before and theirlives to be better.
And when you create a moralorder in your business, you know
the business that much more.
It is like your work of poetryand you love it.
Speaker 2 (37:13):
Thank you, Charles.
I want to ask just two morequestions as we finish up today.
Our time has gone by reallyfast.
I can't believe how fast it'sgone.
The best way for folks toconnect with you, and where do
you also want them to go topurchase a copy of your book?
Speaker 1 (37:28):
Okay, well the best, the easiest way to go to
purchase a copy of your book.
Okay, well, the best, theeasiest way to connect to me is
LinkedIn, slash in slash,charles Spinoza.
And if you do LinkedIn, charlesSpinoza, I'm pretty sure any
browser is going to bring you tomy page.
You can get that.
I also have my personal emailaddress on that page and I'm
happy to take email from peopleusing that page.
(37:50):
Where to get the book?
The easiest place to get thebook and I just saw recently it
has a discount is Amazon.
However, barnes Noble had itand there are lots of other
places that have it.
Speaker 2 (38:03):
I'll put a link to both of them in the show notes.
Charles, I really appreciateyour time that you've invested
with the listeners of theUncommon Leader podcast.
I'll finish you off with thesame last question give you the
last word that you can provideadvice to them as they listen
through.
But I'll give you a billboard.
You can put it right there inEast Manhattan.
There can be a lot of peoplethat see it in Manhattan, but
you can put any message on itthat you want to.
(38:24):
What's the message that you puton that billboard and why do
you put that message on there?
Speaker 1 (38:29):
Thank you for asking the second question.
The message is today's businessleaders are our moral artists
or, we could add, who will giveus our future?
(38:50):
Why do I put that?
Because it goes against thegrain of so much that people
think about business leaders.
That's demeaning.
The first thing is that they'reself-interested.
The second thing is, well, theycare about various stakeholders
, like their customers, theirshareholders, their employees,
but they care in a kind oflegalistic way.
They're going to treat themwell by the average
(39:10):
understanding that people haveas well, and now we want them to
adopt some purpose, but it's apurpose that any man in the
street will see as a goodpurpose.
It's not their purpose, it'snot their use of an abused word,
their authentic purpose.
I want us to start seeingbusiness leaders for what I
believe they are, for what allmy experience has shown.
(39:31):
They are as people with moralimaginations, who are morally
sensitive, who are designing theways to live that we will live.
And just two examples Imentioned to you earlier Google
there's a moral order withpsychological safety and
following your dreams.
In fact, getting paid to followyour dreams.
(39:51):
That's what a good life is.
Doing, that is what the goodthing is.
Amazon, where you're relentless, where you're constantly
raising the bar.
No psychological safety there.
Very different moral orders,both I think admirable, both I
think we could admire, bothcreated by their leaders.
Go out and create a moral order.
Speaker 2 (40:13):
Charles, thank you so much for your time that you
invested and for those wholistened all the way through.
I know you've had value tothose that have listened.
Charles, I wish you the bestgoing forward.
Speaker 1 (40:24):
Thank you very much, John.
Thank you for the opportunityto speak to you and your
audience.
Thank you for the questions.
I really appreciate it and lookforward to anybody trying to
reach out to me and I willrespond.
Speaker 2 (40:36):
Thank you Great, Excellent.
Thank you, Charles.
And that wraps up anotherepisode of the Uncommon Leader
podcast.
Thanks for tuning in today.
If you found value in thisepisode, I encourage you to
share it with your friends,colleagues or anyone else who
could benefit from the insightsand inspiration we've shared.
Also, if you have a moment, I'dgreatly appreciate if you could
(40:57):
leave a rating and review onyour favorite podcast platform.
Your feedback not only helps usto improve, but it also helps
others discover the podcast andjoin our growing community of
uncommon leaders.
Until next time, go and growchampions.
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