June 10, 2025 • 30 mins
What does it really mean to leave a legacy? And how can leaders prepare for what comes after success?
In this episode, I sit down with Jim Erben, President of Erben Associates, to talk about legacy, succession, and why the most successful leaders plan their exit long before they need to.
Jim shares hard-earned lessons on:
✅ Why legacy isn’t about wealth—it’s about values
✅ The emotional toll of stepping away from your business
✅ Common mistakes leaders make when it comes to succession
✅ How to prepare your team, your family, and yourself for what’s next
✅ The $13.2 trillion “Silver Tsunami” that’s changing business ownership as we know it
One of my favorite moments? Jim quoting his dad:
🦅 “Eagles never flock with buzzards.”
A powerful reminder to surround yourself with people who share your values and vision.
Whether you’re building a business or thinking about how to leave it well, this conversation is a must-listen.
🎧 Tune in now and start building your legacy—on purpose.
📚 And stay tuned—Jim is launching his book later this year (2025)! It’s packed with even more insight on leadership, legacy, and succession. You won’t want to miss it.
🔗 Learn more about Jim Erben
🌐 Visit website: https://erbenassociates.com/
📲 Follow on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jim-erben-454582
🎙️ Connect with Host John Gallagher 👇
🌍 Explore The Uncommon Leader Podcast: https://youtu.be/GJlETknIvB0
📲 Follow on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/coachjohngallagher/
🔗 Access all resources: https://linktr.ee/coachjohngallagher
#coachjohngallagher #theuncommonleaderpodcast #uncommonleader
#leadershippodcast #SuccessionPlanning #LegacyLeadership #ExitStrategy
#BusinessTransition #Entrepreneurship #SilverTsunami #JimErben #CoachJohnGallagher #IntentionalLeadership #BookLaunch2025 #LegacyByDesign
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Hey, uncommon Leaders , welcome back.
This is the Uncommon LeaderPodcast.
I'm your host, john Gallagher,and today we're talking about a
topic I love to talk about, andthat's legacy building it,
protecting it and passing it onto the next generation with
intention, not accidentally.
Our guy today that we're goingto chat with I love this guy,
jim Urban, the president ofUrban Associates, a firm that is
(00:23):
one of the fastest growing inthe country, multiple years on
the Inc 5000 list, but a partnerfor business owners navigating
what would be the complex worldof exiting and succession and
listen as you hear that word,not everyone listening to this
podcast is a business owner perse.
That'll be thinking about that,but if you're a leader, you
should always be thinking aboutyour legacy, you should always
be thinking about yoursuccession plan, and there's
(00:44):
going to be something in thisfor you.
Today.
Jim's an international speakerand a distinguished advisor, so
I think you're going to love thewisdom he's going to give us
today.
Jim, welcome, how are you doingtoday?
Speaker 2 (00:56):
I'm doing great.
How are you doing?
Speaker 1 (00:57):
I'm doing well and I can't wait.
I know we teed this up just alittle bit beforehand with
regards to what we're going tochat about today, but I know
you're going to add value to thelisteners.
I'm looking forward to ourconversation.
But I always start my firsttime guests with the same
question, and that's to ask youto tell me a story from your
(01:21):
childhood that still impacts whoyou are today, as a person or
as a leader.
Speaker 2 (01:25):
My dad was my mentor.
He had my baseball coach.
You know a whole, justeverything, even up into
adulthood, and I remember himtelling me a story when I was
having trouble with a friend.
I was probably in junior highor maybe even late elementary
school and I just had a friendthat turned out to not be a very
(01:45):
good friend and he told mesomething and he shared it with
me the rest of my life and itstuck with me the rest of my
life.
He said you know, when you'relooking for eagles, they never
flock with buzzards.
So don't be hanging aroundbuzzards looking for an eagle,
(02:06):
hang around other eagles lookingfor eagles.
And he goes there's never acrossover, you never see a flock
of buzzards and eagles swirlingaround together.
And it has resonated with methrough the business.
You know, when we're askingsomebody for a personal
introduction to a business owner, you know we only take great
(02:27):
clients that are that areawesome people, Well you know,
well-grounded, and have theirvalues in order.
And those are the kinds ofpeople we get introduced to,
versus others that are not likethat.
Those are who they getintroduced to, because they all
hang out together.
Speaker 1 (02:46):
Jamie talk about it.
Many things come to my mindFrom a leadership perspective.
Inside of that, you are theaverage of the five people you
hang around with the most.
That's one of those things.
You're exactly right Don'texpect to be finding eagles
hanging around with the buzzardsas you go forward.
Then you and I shared a littlebit about my recent story and
the guys I ended up with on thetrails of a Spartan race, but
(03:08):
the name of our team was Raisethe Average.
If you're going to be in agroup of people, ultimately, as
you stand around, you should beraising the average as you walk
into that room and making surethe people that you hang around
with are raising your average aswell as you go forward.
So I love that analogy of usingthe Eagles and the buzzards too
.
There's no doubt about it yougot to be hanging around the
right people, and your dad waswise to give you that advice.
Speaker 2 (03:32):
So it was really good advice.
Speaker 1 (03:34):
I think that's really cool.
So, leaders, you just got thenumber one of the best tips you
can get as you go forward, andthat's to hang around with
people who are going to raiseyou up.
To hang around with people whoare going to raise you up.
There's no doubt about it.
So, jim, let's jump right intoit.
With regards to UrbanAssociates and who you are and
your organization, you helpbusiness leaders, business
owners, think about exitplanning.
Okay, when's the best time fora business owner to think about
(03:56):
succession or exit planning then?
Speaker 2 (03:59):
Yesterday and I say that not flippantly If you think
about your business, john, anybusiness owner that listens to
this if you had a twin brotheror sister that had an identical
situation as you identicalbusiness, identical family,
identical resources, everythingelse and you came up with a
(04:20):
well-thought-out plan of how youwere going to someday leave the
business, whether it's toinside, you know kids or key
executives or to a third party,complete with a robust plan that
you know for businesscontinuity purposes, that
doesn't blow up your family oryour business.
And your twin just kept doingwhat they're doing and hoping
(04:41):
someday they had a plan who'smore likely to accomplish their
objectives.
I mean, it's a twin personanalogy.
I always say and you know weusually like to work with people
three to 15 or 20 years out,because the longer you have to
plan, the less headaches you'regoing to have on your way to
(05:04):
your destination.
And I always tell people youknow, I'm not a sailor, I like
being sailed.
I don't know the first thingabout raising a sail, but if you
don't know where you're going,any destination is fine.
You know, nobody ever justthrows a sail up and says, well,
let's see where this takes us.
They're usually doing it for adirection, and if you know where
(05:27):
you're going, you can maneuverit a lot quicker and a lot more
efficient.
Speaker 1 (05:32):
Love that Having that target, no doubt about it, and
I'm sure that, to your pointthat twin analogy those who
don't have a target and theyjust arrive, they will arrive at
some destination and, to yourpoint, they may get to a certain
location and not find it.
So maybe that's one of thebarriers, ultimately, that folks
are running into.
So one of them is timing getstarted yesterday or some other
(05:52):
time?
Certainly, if you didn't getstarted yesterday, today then is
the right day to get started.
But what are some of the othercommon mistakes that you see
these business owners or leadersmaking with regards to
succession planning or not doingthat exit planning they need to
do?
Speaker 2 (06:10):
John, I would probably say and I'm not
over-hammering the prior comment, but just going forward and
thinking a plan is magicallyjust going to appear out of the
clouds, or that postponing aplanning initiative of this
consequence is a good idea.
(06:30):
First of all, we never knowwhen we're going to be taken off
this earth and headed to heaven.
You have a lot at risk in thebusiness.
You have a lot at risk withyour family, with your family
Also.
I find it interesting that inall of the people that we work
(06:50):
with, probably 40% are doinginternal transitions.
Sometimes business owners, momand pops, mom and dad are not
being brutally honest withthemselves because all of a
sudden, little Joey has beenrunning a business for 15 years
and the next you know, all of asudden, you know, little Joey's
been running a business for 15years and the next thing, you
know, little Susie all of asudden needs a job and we put
(07:14):
her in there in the corner suiteand think that that's not going
to cause any problems in thecompany.
It does it impacts the culture.
So those are two of the things.
Does it impacts the culture.
So those are two of the things.
The other thing I see a lot ofis people have 100% misalignment
of their personal wealth andtheir ultimate exit from the
(07:38):
business.
They're usually because they'vebeen done by two different
organizations, two differentaccountants, maybe advisors,
whatever lawyers.
And if you sync them up and youput money away on the personal
side as it grows up and thevalue of the business grows up
at some point, that's whensomebody like us calls you and
(07:58):
says hey, john, guess what?
It's time for you and your wife.
You're playing with thedealer's money.
Now you can exit with a 92%chance of never running out of
money.
And I think about people thatdon't do that.
How do they know when they canexit and live happily ever after
?
Because that's everybody's fear.
(08:19):
I mean, I remember in my dad's70s I said how are things going?
He goes good.
I said why are you reading theobituaries?
He goes.
I want to make sure my name'snot in it.
The second one is he goes at myage, son, I don't even buy
green bananas.
My last comment would be thatmost business owners do not know
(08:43):
the market value of theirbusiness.
It's interesting to me theyknow the market value of their
house because they get realestate appraisals or tax
appraisals.
They probably know the value oftheir $100,000, $250,000, half
a million dollar investmentaccount whether it's 401k or not
, because you're looking on thatevery day.
Yet they have a business thatcould be worth millions and they
(09:06):
have no idea what the marketlevel is of that business.
And it's stunning to me.
I'd say 90% of the businessowners we come across have no
idea what the market value is,unless they just got an offer.
Speaker 1 (09:19):
Yeah, unless somebody just comes in and makes an
offer to them.
Right, hey, I want to buy yourbusiness today Because there's
no thinking in terms of goingthrough that.
Right, I can't imagine and asyou talked about that, like
there's three different lanes,you really talked about three of
those big barriers.
Two of them really struck withme.
That second one you talkedabout a word I use often is this
caretaking.
You know this family member whoreally doesn't have any skill
(09:41):
for the business, but we feelthe need as a family member to
bring them on and give them ajob so that they can live, and I
understand that from an overalltaking care, but it doesn't do
anything necessarily good forthe business and it's probably
something you're going to haveto pay for down the road and
it's not going to be a very goodthing.
(10:03):
That second piece is thatvaluation.
Both of those, I got to believe, are striking up significant
emotion.
When you're dealing with thesebusiness owners, when you talk
to them about do you even knowthe value of your business?
They can't even envision nothaving their business.
They grew up in it and they getemotionally attached to it.
(10:24):
How do you help them overcome?
Because I think leaders need todo that with employees as well.
How do you help them overcomethat emotional attachment?
Speaker 2 (10:31):
Well, I'm going to state some facts here.
Number one, it's men.
Women do not have this issue.
We get so wrapped up in ourbusinesses.
It's our identity.
We get so wrapped up in ourbusinesses.
It's our identity, it's who weare at the club, it's who we are
wherever.
And it is the third biggestcause.
The third biggest negativeimpact to a man's life
(10:55):
expectancy is exiting theirbusiness or their company as an
executive, and if you don't havesomeplace you're going to go to
, I mean I have been so candidas to tell a couple if you don't
tell me, john, what you'regoing to be doing in January of
this year after you've exited,our next meeting is going to be
(11:18):
at a mortician's office.
Because I want to get real withyou.
We have two people that haveexited in the last.
We've had five people that haveexited in the last four years.
Two of them are in acute careor assisted living, are in acute
care or assisted living.
They didn't plan on.
(11:39):
I mean one's been in there ayear already.
They didn't plan on.
I mean nobody plans on falling,but you know we've got dementia
, we've got a whole host ofthings and it's you know.
So if you're listening outthere to this.
The plan is not golf andchasing grandkids.
That's not a plan.
You have to occupy your mind.
(12:00):
So go be a consultant, go be aleader, go do something like
that every time.
Speaker 1 (12:07):
Yeah, add some value to someone, right, I mean,
realizing family value is veryimportant, but there's a level
of purpose to your work that youlose, that you're like I had
that for 50 years or whatever itis, and now it doesn't exist
anymore.
I don't go into the office at 7am and leave at 7 pm at night,
like what is my purpose?
And, yeah, you can't playenough golf to overcome that.
(12:29):
In terms of that feeling oflosing that purpose, I love that
as a thought.
So one of the ways you helpthem overcome is what I hear is
those stories as a thought.
So one of the ways you help themovercome is what I hear is
those stories.
You're seeing those and yourexperience with these
individuals is helping you tellthese folks who are attached
that let me tell you what reallyhappened before.
Right, it's very true.
You mentioned that, as we hopeto go to heaven one day, and you
(12:49):
mentioned that from a faithstandpoint.
I mean, that's how Jesus taughtwas in parables.
You've got stories to tell andwisdom, and that's just another
reason that folks shouldn't tryto do these succession and exit
planning on their own Correct.
I love that and I think helpingthem overcome that is something
that's got to be very importantfor you.
You know just go ahead, Jim Go.
Speaker 2 (13:10):
You mentioned valuation and I want to give a
quick story.
We have a client in Florida andwe did a valuation on them
about seven years ago our firstone and he came back and he
called me and he said I thinkyou need to test the employee
that did this for drugs, becauseyou must have a drug problem in
your firm because somebody wassmoking something when they did
(13:32):
this valuation.
Well, let me look at it,because I have a valuation
certification.
So I called them back a weeklater and I said John, I think
this is spot on.
It might be one or 2% variable.
And he goes.
You know, I know it.
I went upstairs to a mergers andacquisition firm, investment
(13:53):
banking firm and they did a backof the napkin appraisal.
That was in 3% of yours.
And what that did as anacquisition firm, investment
banking firm and they did a backof the napkin appraisal, it was
in 3% of yours.
And what that did was itchanged his outlook from 12
years to this year, so he wasgoing to be exiting in another
five years, which would be like2030.
And now he's able to exit in2025.
(14:17):
And he would have never knownthat had we not said look here,
you're already up here.
You know, you thought you weredown here, but you're up here.
So it has given him theopportunity to.
He's got all the chips on thetable that he wants and he can
decide what he wants to do.
Speaker 1 (14:37):
Having those options is so important being able to
expose that to your point andthe lack of knowledge, ignorance
is not an excuse, it's just itcan't.
It can't happen.
You've got to understand what'spossible.
All right, let's do some.
Let's do some teaching.
You use this term called thesilver tsunami.
Speaker 2 (14:58):
What is the silver tsunami, jim?
There are people my age, whichis 61,.
10 million businesses arechanging hands in the next eight
years, totaling $13.2 trillion,that's a T $13.2 trillion in
value.
So if you think about a silvertsunami that's coming and the
(15:24):
reason it is happening is you'vegot the peak baby boomers, of
which I'm the tail end of it,are going to be turning 65 to 70
in the next eight years.
Well, in the next five years,65 to 70 in the next eight years
.
Or six?
Well, in the next five years,65 to 70.
But in the next eight yearswe're all going to be knocking
on age 70.
(15:44):
There's not that much wealth inthe economy just to buy out
privately held business owners.
So who's more likely toaccomplish or weather the storm,
weather the tsunami?
Is it going to be those thathave a plan or those that do it,
like Forrest Gump andLieutenant Dan?
And they just hunkered down and, you know, did what they did
(16:06):
and they were very lucky to doit.
But I don't want to have luckfor my clients over the next
five to eight years.
Speaker 1 (16:14):
That's amazing.
That data is actually, as yousay, a tsunami, as scary as it
is.
So that's scary data that folksneed to pay attention to, and I
have been chatting with leadersand owners, especially in that
space, who would love theirfamilies to be involved.
And the other side of that, onthe people side, is that people
end up having children so lateright now that the generational
(16:36):
gap that exists we're going tolose a generation as a country
within two generations becausepeople are waiting so long to
have children.
They don't have the individualscoming up behind them to take
it over.
So their ego, their emotion,connects to that business and
they don't want to let it go.
They have so much pride tied upinto it and they try to hold on
(16:57):
way too long to get the nextfamily member involved.
Speaker 2 (17:00):
You know, that's an interesting point that you
brought up as it relates tolegacy.
It's not exit or succession.
This comment's about legacy.
You know, legacy is foreverybody.
It is not just, it's notwealthy, it is not in any way
tied to legacy.
The values you learn from yourparents can be a legacy.
I'm going to go back to KingRichard, who was the father of
(17:22):
two relatively well-known andI'm being facetious when I say
that, venus and Serena Williams.
He didn't teach them, hey, whatyou need to do is you need to
learn how to make money and makea ton of money.
What he taught them was nevergive up on your dream, work hard
, stand up for what you believein and always believe that
you're a winner.
And if you haven't seen themovie, it is a killer movie to
(17:46):
watch.
On this particular topic,because you know the older
generation, my generation hadkids that are late.
You know we had them late inlife.
I was 37 when we had my son andif the plan is for, like it
used to be when the lifeexpectancy was about age 70 for
(18:07):
a couple, now it's in themid-80s.
So if you think, in my case, 24years my son's going to be
almost 50 by the time hisinheritance comes to him.
And for those of you that havethe opportunity, do something to
help your kids out now why itcan impact them, rather than
(18:29):
waiting until they're in their50s, when you know you passed,
or 55 or 60, when you passed abusiness or whatever it is.
You know you passed, or 55 or60, when you passed a business
or whatever it is.
You know people want, and kidswant, experiences with their
families, and it doesn't matterif it's a road trip to the beach
or a trip to Europe.
(18:50):
They want experiences withtheir family.
That's a legacy that a lot ofpeople miss and they really
crave.
Speaker 1 (18:58):
That's a great point, too, that you have to wait.
I mean, I think it's one ofthose experiences.
What is that impact you canhave early on?
It's something that I, even youknow, in my mid-50s I've really
started to think about with mysons a little bit closer in age,
in terms of 28 and 26 in theirage, but they need help now.
(19:19):
Sometimes they need help now.
They don't need help whenthey're 50.
Whatever that help means,sometimes as well, it's not just
, to your point, financial- helpas well it doesn't have to be
money.
Speaker 2 (19:28):
Wisdom it can be value reminding them of values.
I mean any of those are.
I mean I'll never forget.
I went off to college.
My dad told me when he took meoff I was playing football.
So he followed me up.
He said there's two rules youneed to remember.
Number one if college isn't foryou, somebody will always pay
(19:51):
you to dig a ditch or pick uprocks.
I used to pick up rocks for adollar an hour.
And the second analogy that hetold me it wasn't an analogy, it
was a threat.
It was if you ever do anythingto embarrass the family, there's
no statute of limitations on mehunting you down.
I was like, wow, thanks, dad.
But I got a box.
This is in 82.
(20:12):
This is before FedEx UPS.
I got a box at the dorm andthey 82.
This is before FedEx UPS.
I got a box at the dorm and theycalled me down and said you got
a box and no return label, homeit up.
No note, just a rock.
I was like that's strange.
So I asked them.
I said I have an idea who thisis from, but how would they know
(20:33):
?
And they said, well, midtermgrades went out last week.
I'm like, ah, that good amidterm, but you know these are
the kinds of things I mean.
It it it had an impact on meinstantaneously as I better get
my rear ending gear.
I'm going to be picking uprocks for a living.
That's legacy.
Speaker 1 (20:55):
Yes.
So, and you you've used theword intentionality before as
well and some of the things thatthat I've, that I've listened
to, Jim, or see you post onLinkedIn, which I would
encourage folks to follow you onLinkedIn, and some of the
things that you're you'rebringing out and some of the
wisdom, how do you then, uh,stay intentional with your
family as you build this legacyto your point?
It's not the, it's not just thewealth side of it, but how are
(21:18):
you doing that to continue tobuild those values?
And what might you suggest toleaders who are not doing that
yet today?
Speaker 2 (21:26):
Sit down with your kids when they're at least 18.
And so many people try to hidetheir success from their kids.
When they're pulling out of thedriveway in a Land Rover, I
think they have a pretty goodidea.
They're not going to be gettingschool vouchers for lunch.
Sit down with them and talk tothem about money and what it is
(21:51):
and what it isn't.
It can be the root of all evilor it can enable you to do some
really neat things.
Talk about the things that areimportant to you.
Whatever is important to you,John, talk about it to your kids
and be upfront about it.
I've had meetings with my son.
I've laid my financialstatement down and I said listen
(22:13):
, if something happens to me,you're going to have plenty.
You're going to have health andeducation paid for, but
maintenance and support is goingto depend on your income.
And if you don't make as muchas a teacher in our community,
I'm going to have the trusteedonate to a charity that you
wouldn't like, and you know Idon't.
(22:35):
I'm not going to raise a kidthat's going to be eating
bonbons on the like, and youknow I don't.
I'm not going to raise a kidthat's going to be eating
bonbons on the beach.
You know you're going to be aproductive citizen of society or
we'll give it to charity.
Speaker 1 (22:45):
I love that.
I mean that's that's instillingthose values as well to your
point and holding accountability.
We, uh our family, just wentthrough what uh our first family
meeting, if you will, where wewe reviewed very we reviewed
very similar just some of thosethings you're talking about and
we developed a family heritagevision, a legacy statement, and
we developed our family corevalues that we can hold each
other accountable to, and noneof them talked about money in
(23:09):
terms of those core values orthat vision statement.
Speaker 2 (23:10):
It's never about money.
If it is, and you've reallymaybe messed up along the way
because you had the kids focustoo much on money.
I mean, we do a lot of next-genplanning and you know we have
family meetings and all of thisstuff and I have clients that
are shocked when I've had twoadult kids say, hey, time out a
(23:34):
second.
Thank you for doing all this,mom and Dad.
But we want to have kids.
I want to be a soccer mom or,you know, I want to coach little
league baseball and you knowwe're don't put us in charge of
this, because you know we wantto carve our own niche and make
our own legacy as well.
(23:54):
We're appreciative of yourlegacy and any financial thing
that comes down the pipe, butwe're going to be okay.
Speaker 1 (24:02):
Love that.
Jim.
You're bringing all this stufftogether.
You've taught, we've taughtyou're.
You're bringing out a book herenot too long.
Well, we won't necessarilydivulge when that's going to
happen, but who's this book, orwhat's this book, and who you're
writing it for, what's theimpact you want to have?
Speaker 2 (24:25):
Business owners.
Back to the silver tsunami orwhatever other storm is going to
come.
Everybody's going to have asuccession that owns a business.
The question that you need toask yourself, if I were speaking
to you as a business owner,John is it going to be by design
or is it going to be by default?
You're going to have an exit,whether it's horizontal and a
(24:48):
disaster, or whether it's onyour terms, and you walk out
upright with a smile.
So the title of the book isSuccession by Design, Not
Default.
So the title of the book isSuccession by Design, Not
Default, and I'm very passionateabout it because, I mean, we
even walk through the process wetake our clients through.
(25:15):
I see so many missteps thatwe've been had a Midwestern
company that paid their dad off.
He had a note to the companyand nobody asked the dad, do
they need the money?
And the answer was no.
But they paid it off a lot.
I mean a large chunk, largechunk and what they did was they
(25:38):
increased the taxable estatethat they're going to have to
pay taxes on, and it was withthe best of intentions.
But you know, just avoidingmissteps like that, minimizing
taxes, is the name of the game.
You know we are very, verysensitive to taxes.
We track the taxes that we helppeople save because nobody
(26:01):
wants to pay more than a nickelof their fair share to the
government because of the waythey spend it.
Speaker 1 (26:07):
Absolutely, Jim.
You help a lot of folks.
How do you want folks to get intouch with you and learn more
about you or about yourorganization?
Speaker 2 (26:16):
Two ways.
If you're wanting to know aboutthe book, you can go to
jimerbincom E-R-B-E-N.
More than likely at the latestit should be a February launch
of next year, so you can learnthere already speaking stuff
that interests you.
(26:37):
You want to know about ourextra planning.
It's urbanassociatescom.
We're in 34 states.
Our litmus test isn't whereyou're located, it's whether
you're a good person or not, andthat is our no jackass clause,
if you will.
But that's where you can learna lot of information and get
information if you want it.
Speaker 1 (26:58):
Love that clause, jim .
I'll make sure to put bothlinks in the show notes for the
folks so they can get in touchwith you and I'm encouraged and
we should talk again as you getcloser to launching the book and
talk about it on the podcast aswell, if you're interested.
Jim, I know you've had a lot ofvalue.
I appreciate your time.
I just have one more questionto give you the last word and
that's the same question.
(27:19):
Maybe it's a two-part question,but same question.
I always ask my guests as wellis that I'm going to give you a
billboard.
You can put it anywhere youwant to Look at that beautiful
skyline, those that are watchingon YouTube, but you can put
that billboard anywhere you want.
What's the message you're goingto put on that billboard?
Speaker 2 (27:37):
and why do you put it there?
Great question.
You know it's not going to haveanything to do with succession
or taxes or legacy or anything.
Ironically, be kind, I wouldput that in the state at
(28:10):
national levels.
And I go back and everybodyasks you know, my favorite
generation was the World War IIgeneration, the greatest
generation.
Everybody was kind andhardworking and wanting the best
for the country and the familyand everything else.
It was, you know whatever applepie and you know everything
else.
But we've lost that and so Ijust hope we revert back to
(28:30):
being kind.
Speaker 1 (28:33):
Jim.
It seems so simple.
It is so, so difficult toimplement across so many
different boundaries that exist.
Be kind, I think that is greatwisdom in just two words.
Jim Urban, it's been a blasthaving the conversation with you
.
Again, I thank you for addingwisdom and value to the
listeners of the Uncommon Leaderpodcast.
I wish you the best in thefuture and look forward to
(28:56):
connecting with you againpodcast.
Speaker 2 (28:57):
I wish you the best in the future and look forward
to connecting with you again.
John, thank you for theopportunity.
Speaker 1 (29:03):
I love talking with you and I hope this helps some
people out there.
Great Thanks, Jim.
Hey, uncommon Leaders , welcome back.
This is the Uncommon LeaderPodcast.
I'm your host, john Gallagher,and today we're talking about a
topic I love to talk about, andthat's legacy building it,
protecting it and passing it onto the next generation with
intention, not accidentally.
Our guy today that we're goingto chat with I love this guy,
jim Urban, the president ofUrban Associates, a firm that is
(00:23):
one of the fastest growing inthe country, multiple years on
the Inc 5000 list, but a partnerfor business owners navigating
what would be the complex worldof exiting and succession and
listen as you hear that word,not everyone listening to this
podcast is a business owner perse.
That'll be thinking about that,but if you're a leader, you
should always be thinking aboutyour legacy, you should always
be thinking about yoursuccession plan, and there's
(00:44):
going to be something in thisfor you.
Today.
Jim's an international speakerand a distinguished advisor, so
I think you're going to love thewisdom he's going to give us
today.
Jim, welcome, how are you doingtoday?
Speaker 2 (00:56):
I'm doing great.
How are you doing?
Speaker 1 (00:57):
I'm doing well and I can't wait.
I know we teed this up just alittle bit beforehand with
regards to what we're going tochat about today, but I know
you're going to add value to thelisteners.
I'm looking forward to ourconversation.
But I always start my firsttime guests with the same
question, and that's to ask youto tell me a story from your
(01:21):
childhood that still impacts whoyou are today, as a person or
as a leader.
Speaker 2 (01:25):
My dad was my mentor.
He had my baseball coach.
You know a whole, justeverything, even up into
adulthood, and I remember himtelling me a story when I was
having trouble with a friend.
I was probably in junior highor maybe even late elementary
school and I just had a friendthat turned out to not be a very
(01:45):
good friend and he told mesomething and he shared it with
me the rest of my life and itstuck with me the rest of my
life.
He said you know, when you'relooking for eagles, they never
flock with buzzards.
So don't be hanging aroundbuzzards looking for an eagle,
(02:06):
hang around other eagles lookingfor eagles.
And he goes there's never acrossover, you never see a flock
of buzzards and eagles swirlingaround together.
And it has resonated with methrough the business.
You know, when we're askingsomebody for a personal
introduction to a business owner, you know we only take great
(02:27):
clients that are that areawesome people, Well you know,
well-grounded, and have theirvalues in order.
And those are the kinds ofpeople we get introduced to,
versus others that are not likethat.
Those are who they getintroduced to, because they all
hang out together.
Speaker 1 (02:46):
Jamie talk about it.
Many things come to my mindFrom a leadership perspective.
Inside of that, you are theaverage of the five people you
hang around with the most.
That's one of those things.
You're exactly right Don'texpect to be finding eagles
hanging around with the buzzardsas you go forward.
Then you and I shared a littlebit about my recent story and
the guys I ended up with on thetrails of a Spartan race, but
(03:08):
the name of our team was Raisethe Average.
If you're going to be in agroup of people, ultimately, as
you stand around, you should beraising the average as you walk
into that room and making surethe people that you hang around
with are raising your average aswell as you go forward.
So I love that analogy of usingthe Eagles and the buzzards too
.
There's no doubt about it yougot to be hanging around the
right people, and your dad waswise to give you that advice.
Speaker 2 (03:32):
So it was really good advice.
Speaker 1 (03:34):
I think that's really cool.
So, leaders, you just got thenumber one of the best tips you
can get as you go forward, andthat's to hang around with
people who are going to raiseyou up.
To hang around with people whoare going to raise you up.
There's no doubt about it.
So, jim, let's jump right intoit.
With regards to UrbanAssociates and who you are and
your organization, you helpbusiness leaders, business
owners, think about exitplanning.
Okay, when's the best time fora business owner to think about
(03:56):
succession or exit planning then?
Speaker 2 (03:59):
Yesterday and I say that not flippantly If you think
about your business, john, anybusiness owner that listens to
this if you had a twin brotheror sister that had an identical
situation as you identicalbusiness, identical family,
identical resources, everythingelse and you came up with a
(04:20):
well-thought-out plan of how youwere going to someday leave the
business, whether it's toinside, you know kids or key
executives or to a third party,complete with a robust plan that
you know for businesscontinuity purposes, that
doesn't blow up your family oryour business.
And your twin just kept doingwhat they're doing and hoping
(04:41):
someday they had a plan who'smore likely to accomplish their
objectives.
I mean, it's a twin personanalogy.
I always say and you know weusually like to work with people
three to 15 or 20 years out,because the longer you have to
plan, the less headaches you'regoing to have on your way to
(05:04):
your destination.
And I always tell people youknow, I'm not a sailor, I like
being sailed.
I don't know the first thingabout raising a sail, but if you
don't know where you're going,any destination is fine.
You know, nobody ever justthrows a sail up and says, well,
let's see where this takes us.
They're usually doing it for adirection, and if you know where
(05:27):
you're going, you can maneuverit a lot quicker and a lot more
efficient.
Speaker 1 (05:32):
Love that Having that target, no doubt about it, and
I'm sure that, to your pointthat twin analogy those who
don't have a target and theyjust arrive, they will arrive at
some destination and, to yourpoint, they may get to a certain
location and not find it.
So maybe that's one of thebarriers, ultimately, that folks
are running into.
So one of them is timing getstarted yesterday or some other
(05:52):
time?
Certainly, if you didn't getstarted yesterday, today then is
the right day to get started.
But what are some of the othercommon mistakes that you see
these business owners or leadersmaking with regards to
succession planning or not doingthat exit planning they need to
do?
Speaker 2 (06:10):
John, I would probably say and I'm not
over-hammering the prior comment, but just going forward and
thinking a plan is magicallyjust going to appear out of the
clouds, or that postponing aplanning initiative of this
consequence is a good idea.
(06:30):
First of all, we never knowwhen we're going to be taken off
this earth and headed to heaven.
You have a lot at risk in thebusiness.
You have a lot at risk withyour family, with your family
Also.
I find it interesting that inall of the people that we work
(06:50):
with, probably 40% are doinginternal transitions.
Sometimes business owners, momand pops, mom and dad are not
being brutally honest withthemselves because all of a
sudden, little Joey has beenrunning a business for 15 years
and the next you know, all of asudden, you know, little Joey's
been running a business for 15years and the next thing, you
know, little Susie all of asudden needs a job and we put
(07:14):
her in there in the corner suiteand think that that's not going
to cause any problems in thecompany.
It does it impacts the culture.
So those are two of the things.
Does it impacts the culture.
So those are two of the things.
The other thing I see a lot ofis people have 100% misalignment
of their personal wealth andtheir ultimate exit from the
(07:38):
business.
They're usually because they'vebeen done by two different
organizations, two differentaccountants, maybe advisors,
whatever lawyers.
And if you sync them up and youput money away on the personal
side as it grows up and thevalue of the business grows up
at some point, that's whensomebody like us calls you and
(07:58):
says hey, john, guess what?
It's time for you and your wife.
You're playing with thedealer's money.
Now you can exit with a 92%chance of never running out of
money.
And I think about people thatdon't do that.
How do they know when they canexit and live happily ever after
?
Because that's everybody's fear.
(08:19):
I mean, I remember in my dad's70s I said how are things going?
He goes good.
I said why are you reading theobituaries?
He goes.
I want to make sure my name'snot in it.
The second one is he goes at myage, son, I don't even buy
green bananas.
My last comment would be thatmost business owners do not know
(08:43):
the market value of theirbusiness.
It's interesting to me theyknow the market value of their
house because they get realestate appraisals or tax
appraisals.
They probably know the value oftheir $100,000, $250,000, half
a million dollar investmentaccount whether it's 401k or not
, because you're looking on thatevery day.
Yet they have a business thatcould be worth millions and they
(09:06):
have no idea what the marketlevel is of that business.
And it's stunning to me.
I'd say 90% of the businessowners we come across have no
idea what the market value is,unless they just got an offer.
Speaker 1 (09:19):
Yeah, unless somebody just comes in and makes an
offer to them.
Right, hey, I want to buy yourbusiness today Because there's
no thinking in terms of goingthrough that.
Right, I can't imagine and asyou talked about that, like
there's three different lanes,you really talked about three of
those big barriers.
Two of them really struck withme.
That second one you talkedabout a word I use often is this
caretaking.
You know this family member whoreally doesn't have any skill
(09:41):
for the business, but we feelthe need as a family member to
bring them on and give them ajob so that they can live, and I
understand that from an overalltaking care, but it doesn't do
anything necessarily good forthe business and it's probably
something you're going to haveto pay for down the road and
it's not going to be a very goodthing.
(10:03):
That second piece is thatvaluation.
Both of those, I got to believe, are striking up significant
emotion.
When you're dealing with thesebusiness owners, when you talk
to them about do you even knowthe value of your business?
They can't even envision nothaving their business.
They grew up in it and they getemotionally attached to it.
(10:24):
How do you help them overcome?
Because I think leaders need todo that with employees as well.
How do you help them overcomethat emotional attachment?
Speaker 2 (10:31):
Well, I'm going to state some facts here.
Number one, it's men.
Women do not have this issue.
We get so wrapped up in ourbusinesses.
It's our identity.
We get so wrapped up in ourbusinesses.
It's our identity, it's who weare at the club, it's who we are
wherever.
And it is the third biggestcause.
The third biggest negativeimpact to a man's life
(10:55):
expectancy is exiting theirbusiness or their company as an
executive, and if you don't havesomeplace you're going to go to
, I mean I have been so candidas to tell a couple if you don't
tell me, john, what you'regoing to be doing in January of
this year after you've exited,our next meeting is going to be
(11:18):
at a mortician's office.
Because I want to get real withyou.
We have two people that haveexited in the last.
We've had five people that haveexited in the last four years.
Two of them are in acute careor assisted living, are in acute
care or assisted living.
They didn't plan on.
(11:39):
I mean one's been in there ayear already.
They didn't plan on.
I mean nobody plans on falling,but you know we've got dementia
, we've got a whole host ofthings and it's you know.
So if you're listening outthere to this.
The plan is not golf andchasing grandkids.
That's not a plan.
You have to occupy your mind.
(12:00):
So go be a consultant, go be aleader, go do something like
that every time.
Speaker 1 (12:07):
Yeah, add some value to someone, right, I mean,
realizing family value is veryimportant, but there's a level
of purpose to your work that youlose, that you're like I had
that for 50 years or whatever itis, and now it doesn't exist
anymore.
I don't go into the office at 7am and leave at 7 pm at night,
like what is my purpose?
And, yeah, you can't playenough golf to overcome that.
(12:29):
In terms of that feeling oflosing that purpose, I love that
as a thought.
So one of the ways you helpthem overcome is what I hear is
those stories as a thought.
So one of the ways you help themovercome is what I hear is
those stories.
You're seeing those and yourexperience with these
individuals is helping you tellthese folks who are attached
that let me tell you what reallyhappened before.
Right, it's very true.
You mentioned that, as we hopeto go to heaven one day, and you
(12:49):
mentioned that from a faithstandpoint.
I mean, that's how Jesus taughtwas in parables.
You've got stories to tell andwisdom, and that's just another
reason that folks shouldn't tryto do these succession and exit
planning on their own Correct.
I love that and I think helpingthem overcome that is something
that's got to be very importantfor you.
You know just go ahead, Jim Go.
Speaker 2 (13:10):
You mentioned valuation and I want to give a
quick story.
We have a client in Florida andwe did a valuation on them
about seven years ago our firstone and he came back and he
called me and he said I thinkyou need to test the employee
that did this for drugs, becauseyou must have a drug problem in
your firm because somebody wassmoking something when they did
(13:32):
this valuation.
Well, let me look at it,because I have a valuation
certification.
So I called them back a weeklater and I said John, I think
this is spot on.
It might be one or 2% variable.
And he goes.
You know, I know it.
I went upstairs to a mergers andacquisition firm, investment
(13:53):
banking firm and they did a backof the napkin appraisal.
That was in 3% of yours.
And what that did as anacquisition firm, investment
banking firm and they did a backof the napkin appraisal, it was
in 3% of yours.
And what that did was itchanged his outlook from 12
years to this year, so he wasgoing to be exiting in another
five years, which would be like2030.
And now he's able to exit in2025.
(14:17):
And he would have never knownthat had we not said look here,
you're already up here.
You know, you thought you weredown here, but you're up here.
So it has given him theopportunity to.
He's got all the chips on thetable that he wants and he can
decide what he wants to do.
Speaker 1 (14:37):
Having those options is so important being able to
expose that to your point andthe lack of knowledge, ignorance
is not an excuse, it's just itcan't.
It can't happen.
You've got to understand what'spossible.
All right, let's do some.
Let's do some teaching.
You use this term called thesilver tsunami.
Speaker 2 (14:58):
What is the silver tsunami, jim?
There are people my age, whichis 61,.
10 million businesses arechanging hands in the next eight
years, totaling $13.2 trillion,that's a T $13.2 trillion in
value.
So if you think about a silvertsunami that's coming and the
(15:24):
reason it is happening is you'vegot the peak baby boomers, of
which I'm the tail end of it,are going to be turning 65 to 70
in the next eight years.
Well, in the next five years,65 to 70 in the next eight years
.
Or six?
Well, in the next five years,65 to 70.
But in the next eight yearswe're all going to be knocking
on age 70.
(15:44):
There's not that much wealth inthe economy just to buy out
privately held business owners.
So who's more likely toaccomplish or weather the storm,
weather the tsunami?
Is it going to be those thathave a plan or those that do it,
like Forrest Gump andLieutenant Dan?
And they just hunkered down and, you know, did what they did
(16:06):
and they were very lucky to doit.
But I don't want to have luckfor my clients over the next
five to eight years.
Speaker 1 (16:14):
That's amazing.
That data is actually, as yousay, a tsunami, as scary as it
is.
So that's scary data that folksneed to pay attention to, and I
have been chatting with leadersand owners, especially in that
space, who would love theirfamilies to be involved.
And the other side of that, onthe people side, is that people
end up having children so lateright now that the generational
(16:36):
gap that exists we're going tolose a generation as a country
within two generations becausepeople are waiting so long to
have children.
They don't have the individualscoming up behind them to take
it over.
So their ego, their emotion,connects to that business and
they don't want to let it go.
They have so much pride tied upinto it and they try to hold on
(16:57):
way too long to get the nextfamily member involved.
Speaker 2 (17:00):
You know, that's an interesting point that you
brought up as it relates tolegacy.
It's not exit or succession.
This comment's about legacy.
You know, legacy is foreverybody.
It is not just, it's notwealthy, it is not in any way
tied to legacy.
The values you learn from yourparents can be a legacy.
I'm going to go back to KingRichard, who was the father of
(17:22):
two relatively well-known andI'm being facetious when I say
that, venus and Serena Williams.
He didn't teach them, hey, whatyou need to do is you need to
learn how to make money and makea ton of money.
What he taught them was nevergive up on your dream, work hard
, stand up for what you believein and always believe that
you're a winner.
And if you haven't seen themovie, it is a killer movie to
(17:46):
watch.
On this particular topic,because you know the older
generation, my generation hadkids that are late.
You know we had them late inlife.
I was 37 when we had my son andif the plan is for, like it
used to be when the lifeexpectancy was about age 70 for
(18:07):
a couple, now it's in themid-80s.
So if you think, in my case, 24years my son's going to be
almost 50 by the time hisinheritance comes to him.
And for those of you that havethe opportunity, do something to
help your kids out now why itcan impact them, rather than
(18:29):
waiting until they're in their50s, when you know you passed,
or 55 or 60, when you passed abusiness or whatever it is.
You know you passed, or 55 or60, when you passed a business
or whatever it is.
You know people want, and kidswant, experiences with their
families, and it doesn't matterif it's a road trip to the beach
or a trip to Europe.
(18:50):
They want experiences withtheir family.
That's a legacy that a lot ofpeople miss and they really
crave.
Speaker 1 (18:58):
That's a great point, too, that you have to wait.
I mean, I think it's one ofthose experiences.
What is that impact you canhave early on?
It's something that I, even youknow, in my mid-50s I've really
started to think about with mysons a little bit closer in age,
in terms of 28 and 26 in theirage, but they need help now.
(19:19):
Sometimes they need help now.
They don't need help whenthey're 50.
Whatever that help means,sometimes as well, it's not just
, to your point, financial- helpas well it doesn't have to be
money.
Speaker 2 (19:28):
Wisdom it can be value reminding them of values.
I mean any of those are.
I mean I'll never forget.
I went off to college.
My dad told me when he took meoff I was playing football.
So he followed me up.
He said there's two rules youneed to remember.
Number one if college isn't foryou, somebody will always pay
(19:51):
you to dig a ditch or pick uprocks.
I used to pick up rocks for adollar an hour.
And the second analogy that hetold me it wasn't an analogy, it
was a threat.
It was if you ever do anythingto embarrass the family, there's
no statute of limitations on mehunting you down.
I was like, wow, thanks, dad.
But I got a box.
This is in 82.
(20:12):
This is before FedEx UPS.
I got a box at the dorm andthey 82.
This is before FedEx UPS.
I got a box at the dorm and theycalled me down and said you got
a box and no return label, homeit up.
No note, just a rock.
I was like that's strange.
So I asked them.
I said I have an idea who thisis from, but how would they know
(20:33):
?
And they said, well, midtermgrades went out last week.
I'm like, ah, that good amidterm, but you know these are
the kinds of things I mean.
It it it had an impact on meinstantaneously as I better get
my rear ending gear.
I'm going to be picking uprocks for a living.
That's legacy.
Speaker 1 (20:55):
Yes.
So, and you you've used theword intentionality before as
well and some of the things thatthat I've, that I've listened
to, Jim, or see you post onLinkedIn, which I would
encourage folks to follow you onLinkedIn, and some of the
things that you're you'rebringing out and some of the
wisdom, how do you then, uh,stay intentional with your
family as you build this legacyto your point?
It's not the, it's not just thewealth side of it, but how are
(21:18):
you doing that to continue tobuild those values?
And what might you suggest toleaders who are not doing that
yet today?
Speaker 2 (21:26):
Sit down with your kids when they're at least 18.
And so many people try to hidetheir success from their kids.
When they're pulling out of thedriveway in a Land Rover, I
think they have a pretty goodidea.
They're not going to be gettingschool vouchers for lunch.
Sit down with them and talk tothem about money and what it is
(21:51):
and what it isn't.
It can be the root of all evilor it can enable you to do some
really neat things.
Talk about the things that areimportant to you.
Whatever is important to you,John, talk about it to your kids
and be upfront about it.
I've had meetings with my son.
I've laid my financialstatement down and I said listen
(22:13):
, if something happens to me,you're going to have plenty.
You're going to have health andeducation paid for, but
maintenance and support is goingto depend on your income.
And if you don't make as muchas a teacher in our community,
I'm going to have the trusteedonate to a charity that you
wouldn't like, and you know Idon't.
(22:35):
I'm not going to raise a kidthat's going to be eating
bonbons on the like, and youknow I don't.
I'm not going to raise a kidthat's going to be eating
bonbons on the beach.
You know you're going to be aproductive citizen of society or
we'll give it to charity.
Speaker 1 (22:45):
I love that.
I mean that's that's instillingthose values as well to your
point and holding accountability.
We, uh our family, just wentthrough what uh our first family
meeting, if you will, where wewe reviewed very we reviewed
very similar just some of thosethings you're talking about and
we developed a family heritagevision, a legacy statement, and
we developed our family corevalues that we can hold each
other accountable to, and noneof them talked about money in
(23:09):
terms of those core values orthat vision statement.
Speaker 2 (23:10):
It's never about money.
If it is, and you've reallymaybe messed up along the way
because you had the kids focustoo much on money.
I mean, we do a lot of next-genplanning and you know we have
family meetings and all of thisstuff and I have clients that
are shocked when I've had twoadult kids say, hey, time out a
(23:34):
second.
Thank you for doing all this,mom and Dad.
But we want to have kids.
I want to be a soccer mom or,you know, I want to coach little
league baseball and you knowwe're don't put us in charge of
this, because you know we wantto carve our own niche and make
our own legacy as well.
(23:54):
We're appreciative of yourlegacy and any financial thing
that comes down the pipe, butwe're going to be okay.
Speaker 1 (24:02):
Love that.
Jim.
You're bringing all this stufftogether.
You've taught, we've taughtyou're.
You're bringing out a book herenot too long.
Well, we won't necessarilydivulge when that's going to
happen, but who's this book, orwhat's this book, and who you're
writing it for, what's theimpact you want to have?
Speaker 2 (24:25):
Business owners.
Back to the silver tsunami orwhatever other storm is going to
come.
Everybody's going to have asuccession that owns a business.
The question that you need toask yourself, if I were speaking
to you as a business owner,John is it going to be by design
or is it going to be by default?
You're going to have an exit,whether it's horizontal and a
(24:48):
disaster, or whether it's onyour terms, and you walk out
upright with a smile.
So the title of the book isSuccession by Design, Not
Default.
So the title of the book isSuccession by Design, Not
Default, and I'm very passionateabout it because, I mean, we
even walk through the process wetake our clients through.
(25:15):
I see so many missteps thatwe've been had a Midwestern
company that paid their dad off.
He had a note to the companyand nobody asked the dad, do
they need the money?
And the answer was no.
But they paid it off a lot.
I mean a large chunk, largechunk and what they did was they
(25:38):
increased the taxable estatethat they're going to have to
pay taxes on, and it was withthe best of intentions.
But you know, just avoidingmissteps like that, minimizing
taxes, is the name of the game.
You know we are very, verysensitive to taxes.
We track the taxes that we helppeople save because nobody
(26:01):
wants to pay more than a nickelof their fair share to the
government because of the waythey spend it.
Speaker 1 (26:07):
Absolutely, Jim.
You help a lot of folks.
How do you want folks to get intouch with you and learn more
about you or about yourorganization?
Speaker 2 (26:16):
Two ways.
If you're wanting to know aboutthe book, you can go to
jimerbincom E-R-B-E-N.
More than likely at the latestit should be a February launch
of next year, so you can learnthere already speaking stuff
that interests you.
(26:37):
You want to know about ourextra planning.
It's urbanassociatescom.
We're in 34 states.
Our litmus test isn't whereyou're located, it's whether
you're a good person or not, andthat is our no jackass clause,
if you will.
But that's where you can learna lot of information and get
information if you want it.
Speaker 1 (26:58):
Love that clause, jim .
I'll make sure to put bothlinks in the show notes for the
folks so they can get in touchwith you and I'm encouraged and
we should talk again as you getcloser to launching the book and
talk about it on the podcast aswell, if you're interested.
Jim, I know you've had a lot ofvalue.
I appreciate your time.
I just have one more questionto give you the last word and
that's the same question.
(27:19):
Maybe it's a two-part question,but same question.
I always ask my guests as wellis that I'm going to give you a
billboard.
You can put it anywhere youwant to Look at that beautiful
skyline, those that are watchingon YouTube, but you can put
that billboard anywhere you want.
What's the message you're goingto put on that billboard?
Speaker 2 (27:37):
and why do you put it there?
Great question.
You know it's not going to haveanything to do with succession
or taxes or legacy or anything.
Ironically, be kind, I wouldput that in the state at
(28:10):
national levels.
And I go back and everybodyasks you know, my favorite
generation was the World War IIgeneration, the greatest
generation.
Everybody was kind andhardworking and wanting the best
for the country and the familyand everything else.
It was, you know whatever applepie and you know everything
else.
But we've lost that and so Ijust hope we revert back to
(28:30):
being kind.
Speaker 1 (28:33):
Jim.
It seems so simple.
It is so, so difficult toimplement across so many
different boundaries that exist.
Be kind, I think that is greatwisdom in just two words.
Jim Urban, it's been a blasthaving the conversation with you
.
Again, I thank you for addingwisdom and value to the
listeners of the Uncommon Leaderpodcast.
I wish you the best in thefuture and look forward to
(28:56):
connecting with you againpodcast.
Speaker 2 (28:57):
I wish you the best in the future and look forward
to connecting with you again.
John, thank you for theopportunity.
Speaker 1 (29:03):
I love talking with you and I hope this helps some
people out there.
Great Thanks, Jim.
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