May 13, 2025 • 37 mins
What’s the secret to building a breakthrough leadership team?
Mike Goldman says it starts with growth, fulfillment, and impact.
In this episode of The Uncommon Leader Podcast, I sit down with Mike—bestselling author, leadership team expert, and host of The Better Leadership Team Show—for a powerful conversation on what it takes to lead well as your company scales.
Mike shares a personal story about his grandfather that changed his view of purpose forever—and sparked a lifelong mission to help leaders create meaningful, people-first cultures. We talk hiring pitfalls, tough people decisions, self-leadership, and why alignment (not consensus) is the key to progress.
You’ll also get a sneak peek into Mike’s upcoming book, The Strength of Talent, and his favorite leadership reads you won’t want to miss.
🔗 Connect with Mike Goldman:
Website: https://www.mike-goldman.com/
Books & Resources:
1️⃣ Performance breakthrough 👉 https://www.mike-goldman.com/performance-breakthrough
2️⃣ Breakthrough leadership team👉 https://www.mike-goldman.com/break-through-leadership-team
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mgoldman10/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Without a doubt, the number one driver of profit
growth is people growth.
People think I've got abusiness problem.
You don't have a businessproblem, you have a people
problem.
So, as leaders, we need to makepeople growth our number one
priority.
And the problem is, especiallyas things get difficult, people
(00:20):
growth becomes our last priorityas we're just trying to tread
water in 15 other areas.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
Hey, uncommon Leaders , welcome back.
This is the Uncommon LeaderPodcast.
I'm your host, john Gallagher.
Look, I'm excited about theguest today and I know I say
that almost every time I'mexcited, I'm thrilled, I'm all
those different things.
But what I appreciate about theguest today and I know I say
that almost every time I'mexcited, I'm thrilled, I'm all
those different things but whatI appreciate about the gentleman
I'm getting ready to talk to,mike Goldman, who's an author,
he's a speaker and he's anall-around great guy.
(00:54):
But I think it's one of thosethings like you feel this
brother from another mother kindof thing in terms of the
passion that we share fordeveloping leaders and
developing leadership teams andthe way we go about that.
Mike Goldman is the bestsellingauthor of Breakthrough
Leadership Teams and also theauthor of Performance
Breakthrough, and he's got a newbook coming out later on this
(01:14):
year that he's going to talkabout as well.
He's the host of the BetterLeadership Team Show.
I hope that I did okayyesterday when I chatted with
him, that I'll end up on thatshow and again, it's someone
that I know I'm going to learnfrom into the future.
So he's on a mission to helpCEOs not just grow their
business, but to truly createengaging and fulfilling
environments for their teams.
So if you ever wonder how tobuild a team, look, this
(01:35):
conversation today is for you.
It's not just about businesses.
It might be a team in yourchurch that you help to lead
volunteers.
It might be, frankly, your teamat home in terms of who you're
leading, but I know we're goingto learn a lot from him today.
Mike Goldman, welcome to theUncommon Leader Podcast.
How are you?
Speaker 1 (01:51):
I'm good Thanks for having me, and you did a great
job on my show, so I hope Icould equal that.
We'll see All right?
Speaker 2 (01:58):
Well, let's see how we can repeat this and run it
back today as we go forward.
Mike, I'm going to start youwith the first question.
I start every first time gueston the Uncommon Leader podcast,
and that's to ask you to tell mea story from your childhood, if
you would, that still impactswho you are today, as a person
or as a leader.
Speaker 1 (02:15):
I love this question so much and I'll try to take a
longer story and shorten it alittle bit, but you'll tell me
if you want me to go into moredetail.
But when I was a kid, mygrandfather his name was Archie.
We called him Papa Archie.
My grandfather was the best manI ever knew.
(02:35):
He was just strong, and I don'tmean muscle strong, although he
was a pretty tough, tough guy,but, you know, strong in mind,
incredibly proud of his family,not monetarily successful, blue
collar guy.
And when he was about 84 yearsold he was still driving, he was
(02:56):
still working.
He was driving a cab.
He had no business driving thecab anymore.
He couldn't see very well andwe got into a number of
accidents and one day he gotfired from the cab company and
he was too proud to tell us, butmy grandmother told us he had
gotten fired and I alwaysremember that day because I felt
(03:17):
like that day was was the lastday I ever saw my grandfather
and and he actually livedanother two years after that,
but he wasn't pop anymore.
He was a guy that always had,you know, kind of a gleam in his
eye and fire in his belly andthe gleam was gone and the fire
(03:38):
was gone and we grew up in theBronx in New York so we lived on
the sixth floor of ourapartment building.
My grandparents lived on thefifth floor.
We had dinner together togetherevery night and then we'd watch
the Yankee game on TV orwhatever we were doing and and
pop would just sit and I knew wecouldn't hear very well.
I'd say, pop, is the TV loudenough, could you hear it?
(03:59):
And he said, uh, no, but that'sokay, it's like he was just
waiting around to die.
And what I learned from all ofthat and seeing, seeing that
over a couple of years theimpact it had on me was once he
stopped working, was forced tostop working, he felt like he
(04:20):
wasn't of use anymore and he wasjust waiting to die.
So I could have taken so manydifferent messages from that,
but the message I took from thatis that in my mind, retirement
became a dirty word.
Oh, four letter word.
Speaker 2 (04:37):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:38):
Yeah, Retirement's in my now.
I don't I don't fault anyonewho has a goal of retiring or
has retired I mean nothing wrongwith that but in my head it
imprinted retirement is thisfour-letter word I'm going to
love what I do, I'm going tohelp others feel fulfilled and
love what they do.
And thank God, I'm lucky enoughand I've frankly worked hard
(05:01):
enough, that I love what I doevery single day.
And I just turned 60 not toolong ago.
And you know, I hope when I'm75, I'm saying yeah, but you
should see what my business isgoing to look like when I turn
80.
Like it just imprinted that inme where where, thankfully, I
love what I do.
And, man, I don't ever seeretiring.
I might slow down, but I'm notsure retiring is in my cards
(05:26):
until the universe retires me.
Speaker 2 (05:29):
I hear that and, mike , I appreciate that so much.
Thanks for sharing that story,and I can hear that I'm going to
bet we're going to get back toGrandpa Archie as we go through
this conversation.
But one of the things that Ioften think about myself not to
show the word retirement, butultimately, I believe I've been
presented with a set of giftsthat I'm supposed to use and I
want to exhaust every ounce ofwhat I've been given so that I
(05:54):
don't have anything left.
Don't have anything left togive, whatever that means.
And your point about retirementas long as we're continuously
bearing fruit in the lives ofourselves and the lives of
others, I think we've got to getgoing.
We've still got purpose, we'vestill got a reason to carry on.
So I appreciate you sharing itand I appreciate the decision or
approach you made to be thatexcited about it.
(06:16):
I can see I hope to be goingwhen I'm 75 as well.
We shall see how that goes.
Hey, let's jump right into this.
Breakthrough leadership teams.
For those who may be a littlebit new to your work, what does
a breakthrough leadership teamlook like in general?
When you're working with othersright now, what are some of the
(06:37):
benefits that can result from abreakthrough leadership team.
Let's just start there from avision.
Speaker 1 (06:41):
Yeah, and just providing the foundation.
You know what I have seen.
I've been coaching andconsulting for over 35 years now
and what I have seen is, as theleadership team goes, so goes
the rest of the organization.
So it's got to start there.
And when you say, you know what?
What does a breakthroughleadership team look like?
(07:02):
Uh, the goal of a company.
If, if, if you're listening tothis podcast and you've got an
organization, you probablydidn't start your organization
with the goal of having a greatleadership team, and that's not
the goal.
Great leadership is a means toan end.
So I want to talk about whatthat end is, the way I think, of
(07:23):
what that end goal is.
I think it's about creating agreat company, and there are
three characteristics, I think,of creating a great company.
And number one it's aboutgrowth.
And growth is about the dollarsand cents.
When I say growth in thiscapacity, I mean consistent and
(07:45):
significant top and bottom linegrowth.
So if you don't have consistent, significant top and bottom
line growth, I don't think youhave a great team.
You probably don't have abreakthrough leadership team.
So growth is number one.
Number two is fulfillment.
I don't care how fast you'regrowing, if you wake up every
(08:05):
day and your team members wakeup every day and you dread
starting work.
I don't think you have a greatcompany and I don't think you're
on a great team.
So the first one is growth,second is fulfillment and the
third is impact.
If you are not adding value tothe world every day, I don't
(08:27):
think you have a great company.
And when I say adding value tothe world, some people think
peace in the Middle East,climate change.
But adding value to the worldcould be you fix leaky pipes
that your customers have, butyou've got to be adding value.
So I think a breakthroughleadership team and there are
(08:47):
six pillars of creating thatteam and we can go through those
at whatever level.
You want or not.
I'll leave that, john, up toyou.
So there are six pillars ofbuilding that team, but the end
result of that team is growth,fulfillment and impact.
Speaker 2 (09:04):
Love that.
Love those three criteria, ifyou will.
I'm just taking notes on thatto make sure we get back to
those and to your six pillars.
I was reading your book and inthe introduction that's when I
got hooked as you started totell this story, and I just want
to read this section and I wantto let you comment on it
because it hit me really hard.
(09:24):
It says leaders with a goodbusiness idea think they can
white knuckle it and make thingshappen.
You touched on this withregards to they didn't start
their business thinking they hadto build a leadership team.
That's how many businessleaders become successful in the
first place.
They launch a successfulcompany through unglamorous,
difficult work, but as thatcompany grows, long hours and
personal commitment aren'tenough to keep the company
(09:46):
moving forward.
The leader needs help and indesperation, they hire quickly
and wind up with a mediocre teamthat is unable to scale with
the company.
So you talked about that vision, that growth, fulfillment and
impact, but you also talk aboutthat from a challenge standpoint
in terms of what those leadersrun into.
What are some of the otherthings you see in those leaders
(10:08):
who are trying to build thosecompanies that are getting in
their way.
What are some of those barriers?
Speaker 1 (10:12):
Yeah, the first one is what you just mentioned.
It is the team kind of evolvesover time.
It starts off with three peoplearound a kitchen table along
with the founder, and then it'sfive people and then it's 10
people and the founder says I,you know, I, I can't have 10 P,
the all these 10 peoplereporting to me.
(10:33):
You know, joe, could you taketwo of these?
And Susan, could you take theseother two?
And then all of a sudden yougot 50, 75, a hundred people and
you've got this structure ofyour team.
That doesn't make sense but itevolved.
And you've got people that arestretched too thin, you've got
people that aren't clear on whatthey're accountable for.
You got the wrong people in thewrong seats.
(10:54):
So I think it's structure ofthe team gets in the way because
we're not proactive about it.
And I'll tell you that thebiggest thing and there are so
many, but I'm just going to, I'mjust going to grab two of them
the biggest thing is notprioritizing people growth.
That, I think, is the numberone thing that gets in the way.
(11:16):
It's not just a matter ofhaving the right team around you
.
That team has got to belearning and growing.
You've got to be assessing theperformance of your people.
You've got to be developing andcoaching your people,
challenging your people,re-recruiting them, coaching
people out of the organizationthat aren't a fit.
And you know most people whenthey think about creating a
(11:37):
great company, when they thinkabout growth, they do have the
right vision.
Do I have the right strategy?
Do I have the right processesand systems?
And, of course, all thosethings are important and, john,
you and I work with our clientson all those things.
But I have found, without adoubt, the number one driver of
profit growth is people growth.
(11:59):
People think I've got abusiness problem.
Is people growth?
People think I've got abusiness problem.
You don't have a businessproblem, you have a people
problem.
So we need to make, as leaders,we need to make people growth
our number one priority.
And the problem is, especiallyas things get difficult, people
(12:20):
growth becomes our last priorityas we're just trying to tread
water in 15 other areas.
Speaker 2 (12:24):
Yes, Great stuff.
Those are barriers to that.
That are things that folks haveto overcome.
I'm going to come back to acouple of them in our
conversation, but as I movethrough your book, look, I was
so excited when I saw chapterone self-leadership that that
leader who's running thatorganization that may have
bootstrapped this organizationfor 20 years, doesn't think that
(12:47):
they have to be the ones thathave to drive.
And you touch on a few thingsthat are important for leaders
from their self-development,including managing their
emotional state and developingan internal locus of control.
So touch on one or two of thosein terms of what are the action
plans for those leaders and howyou get them started on the
(13:08):
journey.
Because I know you also say youdon't just work with the team,
you insist on working with thetop leader as well.
Speaker 1 (13:13):
Absolutely, Absolutely.
And maybe you mentioned thelocus of control and you
mentioned emotional state, somaybe I'll cover a concept that
hits both of those.
And I actually have a TEDx thatI did, a TED talk I did back in
Gainesville, Florida, about twoand a half years ago that
touches on this.
(13:34):
It's called the Antidote toAnger.
But one of the key things Ilearned and frankly I say I
learned it.
I need to relearn it everysingle day and I learned it from
my son.
I have a son he's 30 now buthe's got Asperger's syndrome and
from the time he was probablytwo to the time he was in his
(13:56):
mid-teens, I am not proud of thefather I was and there's a
whole deep story behind that,but I'll keep it high level not
proud of the father I was, and abig reason for that was and I
wouldn't have looked at it thisway at the time is I was looking
at all the challenges my sonhad and in my mind he was
(14:17):
pushing my buttons on purpose.
He knew how to piss me off and,man, he was doing it every day
and we had good weeks and awhole lot of weeks from hell.
And one of the things I learnedover time that I now coach my
leaders on is this idea that noone wakes up in the morning and
(14:37):
says what could I screw up today?
I don't care if it's your, yourbitterest enemy, I don't care
if it's left or right on thepolitical spectrum, I don't care
if it's your most difficultteam member or peer.
No one wakes up in the morningsaying, what could I screw up
today?
You know, everybody is justtrying to do the best they can
(14:59):
with the resources they have.
I call that the law of positiveintent, and it doesn't mean
everybody's doing the rightthing.
But when someone's doingsomething that frustrates you or
makes you angry or you don'tunderstand it, as opposed to
lashing out because you believethey're doing something wrong on
purpose and we see that in ourpolarized society all the time.
(15:22):
Now, if you believe they'rejust trying to do the best they
can with the resources they have, it causes you to get curious.
Not angry, but curious.
You want to know what do theyknow that I don't know?
What do I know that they don'tknow what resources do I have?
That they may not have Causesyou to ask questions.
And that is not the only lessonin self-leadership that's in
(15:46):
the book or that I teach myclients, but this idea, the law
of positive intent, is such afoundational lesson for people
to learn to manage their ownemotional state and take control
of their lives, versus thinkingthe problems out there with all
these other pain in the neckpeople.
No, no, no, it's got to startwith you.
Speaker 2 (16:08):
Love that, your locus control.
As I read that in the story, Iremember there was a CEO that I
was coaching and he loved tolook at his team and say I want
you guys to tell me what part ofthe problem am I?
It was such a humble questionthat he would ask those others
to point to him to understandwhat he wasn't seeing about
himself inside of that locuscontrol that needed to be
(16:29):
improved upon.
And I just I love as you gothrough it, as you go through
that with those individualleaders.
What are some of thedisciplines you encourage those
leaders to have to be successfulat developing their teams?
Speaker 1 (16:44):
Well there, when it comes to discipline, I really
think of three major disciplines.
Now I'm not talking aboutself-leadership anymore,
although it's impacted, but whenit comes to the team, there are
, I think, three high-prioritykind of disciplines of execution
(17:04):
, and the number one disciplineis aligning around a small
number of priorities.
I talk to CEOs all the time andI say, all right, tell me what
are your top priorities for 2025?
And they list out 12 things.
It's like, well, ifeverything's a priority,
nothing's a priority.
So those aren't.
Now they list out two or three.
(17:25):
I know maybe they've got it.
So the first thing is aligningaround a small number of
priorities, whether that'sannual priorities or quarterly
priorities, and I call thoserocks the quarterly priorities.
So that's number one.
Number two is measuring whatmatters, and by measuring what
matters, I mean you may callthem key performance indicators
(17:48):
or productivity measures.
Think of marketing.
If I say you're accountable formarketing, that tells me almost
nothing about what myexpectations are of you.
Does it mean our website wentlive on time?
Our new logo has a lot ofpretty colors.
A bunch of people are clickingon our email marketing campaign,
(18:09):
or does it mean you've broughtin at least 10 marketing
qualified email marketingcampaign, or does it mean you've
brought in at least 10marketing qualified leads each
week?
What does it mean?
Well, I don't know unless wespecify that.
So it's not only aroundaligning around a small number
of priorities, it's measuringthose things that matter so we
can keep score and people knowwhether they're winning or
losing.
And then, third is having aconsistent planning and
(18:31):
communication rhythm.
And what I mean by planning andcommunication rhythm are things
like annual planning retreats,and in my world those are
typically two-day retreats thatI coach and facilitate my
clients through.
But you don't need a coach, youcan do it yourself.
But there's annual planningretreats, there's quarterly
(18:53):
planning.
In my mind, quarterly planningis the most important type of
planning.
Back when I was in my twentiesand thirties and worked for big
management consulting firms, wewould do three and five year
plans and they would bebeautiful.
Millions of dollars spent plansand they would be beautiful.
Millions of dollars spentbeautiful PowerPoints sitting in
(19:14):
binders on a shelf gatheringdust, because five months after
they created it, the worldchanged.
They stopped holding each otheraccountable.
So quarterly planning iscritical.
So it's annual retreat,quarterly planning, monthly
check-ins, weekly accountabilitymeetings, quarterly planning,
monthly check-ins, weeklyaccountability meetings, daily
(19:35):
huddles, that whole planning andcommunication rhythm is so
important.
Including one of the mostimportant things is having at
best weekly, at worst bi-weekly,one-on-one meetings with all of
your direct reports.
That is critical.
Speaker 2 (19:48):
Hey listeners, I want to take a quick moment to share
something special with you.
Many of the topics anddiscussions we have on this
podcast are areas where Iprovide coaching and consulting
services for individuals andorganizations.
If you've been inspired by ourconversation and are seeking a
catalyst for change in your ownlife or within your team, I
invite you to visitcoachjohngallaghercom forward
(20:09):
slash free call to sign up for afree coaching call with me.
It's an opportunity for us toconnect, discuss your unique
challenges and explore howcoaching or consulting can
benefit you and your team.
Okay, let's get back to theshow.
I love that governance model asyou walk through Annual,
quarterly, monthly, weekly andeven daily to a certain extent
(20:32):
in terms of what's happening,that are very important.
That rhythm that happens andthen having the discipline to
actually carry that out.
Again, just like the binder, itdoesn't mean a hill of beans if
you wrote it down, if you'renot going to execute on it.
And then I love the start out,the prioritizing things.
You can do anything you want.
You just can't do everythingyou want and if you got too many
priorities, you got nopriorities.
(20:52):
You know that and I appreciateit.
Again, we get so aligned, mike,it's unbelievable.
The other side of that youtouched on in the book with the
teams was a lot of times theseleaders who started out on their
own, they're bootstrapping,they're working really hard.
They don't necessarily have thestructures and processes in
place and when they look toscale, they hire on kind of the
(21:14):
first people, they hire fast andthey hire friends or others to
help them out, and then therecomes a time, ultimately, that
those individuals are not goingto take them where they need to
go.
And I know you touch on it.
The difficult decision ofletting a leader go is never
easy.
How do you coach them to therealization that I either need
to change this leader or I needto change this leader?
(21:35):
How do you coach them there?
Speaker 1 (21:36):
Yeah, and, by the way , this question is so important
to me.
It was part of my bookBreakthrough Leadership Team
that you're talking about.
It's kind of the sixth pillarof building a great leadership
team is assessing talent,coaching and developing talent.
But it's so important that I'vegot a book another book coming
out in October called theStrength of Talent how to Grow
your People to Grow your Profitwhere the whole book dives about
(22:00):
a thousand miles deeper on thatconcept.
So this is so near and dear tome and you know the way I coach
leaders on.
It is, you know, number onethere's got to be a rhythm, like
I just talked about theplanning and communication
rhythm.
I have my leadership teams meetevery quarter it's part of our
quarterly planning process wherethey do something I call the
(22:23):
quarterly talent assessmentmeeting, where every quarter
doesn't mean they're going backand doing quarterly performance
reviews with their people, whereevery quarter doesn't mean
they're going back and doingquarterly performance reviews
with their people.
I happen to think annual andquarterly performance reviews
are the worst inventions evercreated in business.
But I'm talking about leadersworking as peers to talk about
debate, hold each otheraccountable for building
(22:45):
strength of talent within theirorganization.
What are we doing?
To challenge our best people,to re-recruit our best people,
to promote our best people, toreward our best people, to
leverage, coach and mentor them.
You know what are we doing?
To take our mediocre folks andcoach them up and then, for the
(23:06):
low performing folks which arethey're low performing either
because they're they're, they'relow in productivity and or
they're not living our corevalues.
Speaker 2 (23:15):
They've got more more behavioral.
Speaker 1 (23:17):
And, by the way, I don't care if they're your best
salesperson, I don't care howproductive they are, they're not
living your core values.
They're toxic to yourorganization.
So that is something that thatI hold my leadership teams
accountable for all the time,especially in these quarterly
meetings.
But throughout and you know toomany I see too many leadership
(23:42):
teams, too many leaders go three, six, 12 months, two years,
letting low performers stickaround.
And one of my philosophies isfire fast, hire slow.
We cannot afford to let theselow performers be toxic to our
(24:04):
organization.
Hold it back.
And, by the way, these lowperformers are not bad people,
they're just a bad fit for yourorganization.
And one of the ways I like toreframe it for people that, hey,
we're good people, we don'twant to just go fire people.
They've got lives too.
But the way I reframe it andwhy fire fast is not a heartless
philosophy is because I trulybelieve everyone has the ability
(24:29):
to be a superstar somewhere,and I normally, when I'm working
with teams, I put up on a slideeverybody's got the ability to
be a superstar and I say doeseverybody believe that?
And people are like you wenttoo far, mike.
I don't believe everyone couldbe a superstar.
And then I put up the wordssomewhere, the word somewhere,
and people go oh, that makessense.
(24:50):
And if they could be asuperstar somewhere and they're
a low performer for you?
By you keeping them around,you're not only hurting the team
and the company and yourclients and yourself.
You're actually hurting thatteam member because you're
holding them back from goingsomewhere where they can perform
at a higher level.
Speaker 2 (25:11):
Love that when I think about that.
There's so many organizationsand you touch on it like it's
not about them being a badperson.
It's really about fit, and youknow this one again.
I'll tie it back to GrandpaArchie in terms of when you do
have to let someone go at somepoint in time.
If you've done your jobcorrectly as a leader and you
(25:33):
have those systems in place tohelp them out, it won't be a
surprise for one thing, andyou'll be able to inspire and
encourage them to that somewherethat you're talking about,
where they can continuously addvalue rather than demotivating
them, deflating them, ultimatelyresulting in they lose their
spirit and they think thatthey're not worthy of doing
anything.
(25:54):
I think it's got to be a huge.
It is a huge challenge that Ihear from leaders all the time
oh, he's a nice guy, he's afriend, my wife knows him.
No, I mean, I get that part ofit, but sometimes in your
organization you will get whatyou tolerate, and it's keeping
you from performing at a levelthat you want to get to.
(26:15):
Which leads me to my otherpoint in terms of another
barrier.
Maybe this sits in one of thepillars also is the consensus
you say can be a trap.
Tell me about more about that.
Speaker 1 (26:28):
The world is moving too fast to wait until everybody
.
And, by the way, the world ismoving faster than ever.
I'm 60 years old.
When I was 25, the world wasmoving pretty fast too.
So I think that's the nature ofthings, and if we wait until we
have full agreement on our team, the opportunity passes us by.
(26:50):
And I'm not saying, as a leader,be dictatorial and just say
here's the answer.
That is not a recipe forsuccess either.
But, man, we've got to debatethese issues and then we got to
make a decision, and I actually,like Colin Powell, had this
rule that I liked called the40-70 rule of making a decision,
and the idea was you make adecision when you're somewhere
(27:13):
in between 40% and 70%, sureit's the right decision, because
if you make a decision whenyou're less than 40%, well now
you're just throwing a dart.
You haven't analyzed it ortalked about it enough, or
researched it enough.
But if you're waiting untilyou're 80, 90, 100%, sure, again
(27:33):
, life is going to pass you by.
And one of the philosophies Ilike to try and get across to my
leaders is very often there'sno one right decision, there is
only a decision you make at thetime and then you execute the
(27:56):
heck out of it.
Very often it's not.
You're successful not becauseyou made the right decision,
because you made a decision andthen you executed it.
So, yes, don't make them tooquick.
But, man, waiting untilconsensus, waiting until
everybody agrees, that could bedeath.
And there's a concept I like touse called disagree and commit.
(28:17):
Disagree and commit says ifyou're on my leadership team, as
long as you have a voice andyour voice was heard, the end
result may not be what youropinion was.
We may go with option B and youthought the right answer was
option A, but if you were partof that discussion and you're
part of this leadership team,you will leave this room
(28:39):
committed to that decision as ifit was your own.
Speaker 2 (28:43):
Amen.
Love that philosophy.
I think that's so powerful.
You're not going to go out andthrow that idea under the bus
and bring it down.
You're expected as a leader tosupport it, to commit to it as
you walk through that door.
Love that.
The other thing I often chatabout in that decision-making
and I love the 40-70s first timeI heard that with regards to
Colin Powell but is to ask thequestion even when you're at
(29:05):
that 70 point and say what's theworst thing that can happen?
And if we can take the worstthing, then we can go ahead and
make this decision, because thenwe can still respond to that
worst thing if it does happenand, frankly, we might be able
to put some solution in place toensure that that doesn't happen
.
Another I call it a failuremodes and effects analysis, but
(29:30):
another way to make sure thatthat doesn't happen.
So love that 40-70.
Very cool as you go forwardwith your learning and your
teaching, Shifting gears just alittle bit.
You say if you haven'trecommended a book in 90 minutes
, there's a problem.
Now you can't recommend one ofyour two books or your third
one's coming out soon.
What's one or two books thatyou recommend every leader
should read with, specificallywith regards to developing teams
.
Speaker 1 (29:51):
Yeah, great question.
And, man, if I can't recommendmy own?
No, some of them that.
One of them that I love is thecoachingit by Michael Bungay
Stanier and the Coaching Habit.
The whole idea behind it is wetend as leaders to want to give
advice and very often when wegive advice we're giving bad
(30:15):
advice.
We're solving a problem that'sa different problem than that
person has.
We're giving advice that mayreflect something that would be
the right action for us, butit's not necessarily the right
action for the other person.
So Michael Bungay-Stanier in theCoaching Habit talks about he
actually has seven questions,and I've got them up on my board
(30:35):
here somewhere seven questionsthat every leader should be
asking.
It's about the questions andmodeling a way of thinking
through those questions.
So the Coaching Habit byMichael Mungay-Stanier is a
great one.
Multipliers by Liz Wiseman isone of the best books I've read
as to how to lead and manageothers.
(30:58):
And then you may have asked fortwo, but I'm gonna throw in a
third as a bonus.
There's a great book that Irecommend to all of the
leadership teams I work with,called who, the A Method for
Hiring by Jeff Smart, and it isthe best methodology and
(31:23):
framework I've seen for how youincrease the chances of hiring
in individuals that have thebest chance to be superstars in
your organization.
Speaker 2 (31:37):
Love that.
Who Hiring great Three books.
I'll put the links in the shownotes.
Speaker 1 (31:42):
Those are all three books I have not below the links
to my books of course below toyour two, of course.
Speaker 2 (31:49):
Now the third one you're coming out with you're
going deep on that one pillarthat you talked about.
Who did you write that one for?
Speaker 1 (31:56):
that one.
You know it's interesting, it'sgreat.
It's great question becausebreakthrough leadership team was
really written for CEOs,entrepreneurs and very senior
leaders.
The strength of talent is tosome degree for those same folks
, but I broaden the audience alittle bit.
This book is really also foranyone that has others reporting
(32:22):
to them.
Now, sure people that aspire tolead could read it as well, but
really anyone who has anydirect reports is going to get
great value from this book.
Number one just driving home thewhole philosophy and helping
them understand why peoplegrowth needs to be their number
(32:42):
one priority, but then givingthem a very, very specific
framework for how to assessperformance, coach and develop
performance, hold themselves andothers accountable for building
strength of talent on the teams.
And there's even there's even ameasure that I call the talent
(33:02):
density indicator in that book.
One of the problems withdeveloping people is it's not
very measurable.
I say the number one driver ofprofit growth is people growth.
Problem with that statement isyou you know the the cliche you
can't, you can't manage what youdon't measure.
And it's it's the clichebecause it's mostly true.
Well, the number one driver ofprofit growth is people growth.
(33:25):
Do we measure profit growth?
Of course we do.
We can go around, I can goaround the room any group of
CEOs and they would tell us downto the 10th of a percent how
they're doing against plan, howthey're doing against last year.
But if I said how you doing onpeople growth, they'd say pretty
good, pretty good is not ameasure.
So with the framework I have inthere's actually in that I have
(33:48):
in the book there's a frameworkcalled the talent density
indicator which is a specificmeasure of strength of talent
that I'm really proud of.
So, so really excited about thebook.
Speaker 2 (34:00):
That's very exciting to come out because, you're
right, it is a little bittougher to measure that people
growth component what that meansto organizations a lot of
different ways they try to withregards to engagement scores and
I'm not a big fan of surveyswhen it comes to measuring that
type of thing but if you've gota scorecard, I'm excited to see
it, Mike, as it comes out.
Mike, this has been a greatconversation.
I know we could keep going andI know we're going to talk again
(34:22):
.
How do folks get in touch withyou and how do you want them to
go and get your books?
Speaker 1 (34:26):
Yeah, the best way to get in touch with me is my
website, is mike-goldmancom andthe new book.
You could order any of my bookson Amazon, but I'm most focused
on the new book and trying toget it on a bestseller list.
So that's actually out therefor pre-order now.
Depending on when you'relistening to this, it's coming
(34:48):
out October of 25.
But if you go to Amazon and youlook for the Strength of Talent
by Mike Goldman, you will findit and you can pre-order it
there.
Speaker 2 (34:58):
Excellent Folks, get out there and get that book.
Mike, thanks again for sharingyour wisdom with this group.
Like I said, I know we're goingto be chatting again more the
kindred spirits that we are withregards to our passion for
leadership development.
I'm going to give you the lastword and finish you up with the
question.
I always have my first timeguests.
I'm going to give you abillboard.
You can put that billboardanywhere you want to.
(35:20):
What's the message that you puton that billboard and why do
you put that message on there?
Speaker 1 (35:27):
I'm going to be a little redundant here.
The message that goes on thatbillboard is everyone is just
off at people cutting me off onthe highway and other people.
(35:50):
So I need to be reminded ofthat all the time.
So, man, I need a whole bunchof billboards out there, not for
everybody else, just for me.
Speaker 2 (36:00):
Just for you, I got you, I gotcha, I gotcha, mike.
Yeah, and I think that one forme is the folks who leave their
shopping carts in the middle ofthe parking lot at the grocery
store Drives me nuts.
It's a pet peeve of mine.
Like, just put it back, thecorral's right there, Just put
it back in.
Everybody's got a story.
Speaker 1 (36:27):
Everybody's doing the best they the book launch.
Speaker 2 (36:29):
I'll be sure to get my copy here as soon as we sign
off.
Thank you.
Thanks for having me on theshow, Absolutely.
And that wraps up anotherepisode of the Uncommon Leader
Podcast.
Thanks for tuning in today.
If you found value in thisepisode, I encourage you to
share it with your friends,colleagues or anyone else who
could benefit from the insightsand inspiration we've shared.
Also, if you have a moment, I'dgreatly appreciate if you could
leave a rating and review onyour favorite podcast platform.
(36:50):
Your feedback not only helps usto improve, but it also helps
others discover the podcast andjoin our growing community of
uncommon leaders.
Until next time, go and growchampions.
Without a doubt, the number one driver of profit
growth is people growth.
People think I've got abusiness problem.
You don't have a businessproblem, you have a people
problem.
So, as leaders, we need to makepeople growth our number one
priority.
And the problem is, especiallyas things get difficult, people
(00:20):
growth becomes our last priorityas we're just trying to tread
water in 15 other areas.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
Hey, uncommon Leaders , welcome back.
This is the Uncommon LeaderPodcast.
I'm your host, john Gallagher.
Look, I'm excited about theguest today and I know I say
that almost every time I'mexcited, I'm thrilled, I'm all
those different things.
But what I appreciate about theguest today and I know I say
that almost every time I'mexcited, I'm thrilled, I'm all
those different things but whatI appreciate about the gentleman
I'm getting ready to talk to,mike Goldman, who's an author,
he's a speaker and he's anall-around great guy.
(00:54):
But I think it's one of thosethings like you feel this
brother from another mother kindof thing in terms of the
passion that we share fordeveloping leaders and
developing leadership teams andthe way we go about that.
Mike Goldman is the bestsellingauthor of Breakthrough
Leadership Teams and also theauthor of Performance
Breakthrough, and he's got a newbook coming out later on this
(01:14):
year that he's going to talkabout as well.
He's the host of the BetterLeadership Team Show.
I hope that I did okayyesterday when I chatted with
him, that I'll end up on thatshow and again, it's someone
that I know I'm going to learnfrom into the future.
So he's on a mission to helpCEOs not just grow their
business, but to truly createengaging and fulfilling
environments for their teams.
So if you ever wonder how tobuild a team, look, this
(01:35):
conversation today is for you.
It's not just about businesses.
It might be a team in yourchurch that you help to lead
volunteers.
It might be, frankly, your teamat home in terms of who you're
leading, but I know we're goingto learn a lot from him today.
Mike Goldman, welcome to theUncommon Leader Podcast.
How are you?
Speaker 1 (01:51):
I'm good Thanks for having me, and you did a great
job on my show, so I hope Icould equal that.
We'll see All right?
Speaker 2 (01:58):
Well, let's see how we can repeat this and run it
back today as we go forward.
Mike, I'm going to start youwith the first question.
I start every first time gueston the Uncommon Leader podcast,
and that's to ask you to tell mea story from your childhood, if
you would, that still impactswho you are today, as a person
or as a leader.
Speaker 1 (02:15):
I love this question so much and I'll try to take a
longer story and shorten it alittle bit, but you'll tell me
if you want me to go into moredetail.
But when I was a kid, mygrandfather his name was Archie.
We called him Papa Archie.
My grandfather was the best manI ever knew.
(02:35):
He was just strong, and I don'tmean muscle strong, although he
was a pretty tough, tough guy,but, you know, strong in mind,
incredibly proud of his family,not monetarily successful, blue
collar guy.
And when he was about 84 yearsold he was still driving, he was
(02:56):
still working.
He was driving a cab.
He had no business driving thecab anymore.
He couldn't see very well andwe got into a number of
accidents and one day he gotfired from the cab company and
he was too proud to tell us, butmy grandmother told us he had
gotten fired and I alwaysremember that day because I felt
(03:17):
like that day was was the lastday I ever saw my grandfather
and and he actually livedanother two years after that,
but he wasn't pop anymore.
He was a guy that always had,you know, kind of a gleam in his
eye and fire in his belly andthe gleam was gone and the fire
(03:38):
was gone and we grew up in theBronx in New York so we lived on
the sixth floor of ourapartment building.
My grandparents lived on thefifth floor.
We had dinner together togetherevery night and then we'd watch
the Yankee game on TV orwhatever we were doing and and
pop would just sit and I knew wecouldn't hear very well.
I'd say, pop, is the TV loudenough, could you hear it?
(03:59):
And he said, uh, no, but that'sokay, it's like he was just
waiting around to die.
And what I learned from all ofthat and seeing, seeing that
over a couple of years theimpact it had on me was once he
stopped working, was forced tostop working, he felt like he
(04:20):
wasn't of use anymore and he wasjust waiting to die.
So I could have taken so manydifferent messages from that,
but the message I took from thatis that in my mind, retirement
became a dirty word.
Oh, four letter word.
Speaker 2 (04:37):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:38):
Yeah, Retirement's in my now.
I don't I don't fault anyonewho has a goal of retiring or
has retired I mean nothing wrongwith that but in my head it
imprinted retirement is thisfour-letter word I'm going to
love what I do, I'm going tohelp others feel fulfilled and
love what they do.
And thank God, I'm lucky enoughand I've frankly worked hard
(05:01):
enough, that I love what I doevery single day.
And I just turned 60 not toolong ago.
And you know, I hope when I'm75, I'm saying yeah, but you
should see what my business isgoing to look like when I turn
80.
Like it just imprinted that inme where where, thankfully, I
love what I do.
And, man, I don't ever seeretiring.
I might slow down, but I'm notsure retiring is in my cards
(05:26):
until the universe retires me.
Speaker 2 (05:29):
I hear that and, mike , I appreciate that so much.
Thanks for sharing that story,and I can hear that I'm going to
bet we're going to get back toGrandpa Archie as we go through
this conversation.
But one of the things that Ioften think about myself not to
show the word retirement, butultimately, I believe I've been
presented with a set of giftsthat I'm supposed to use and I
want to exhaust every ounce ofwhat I've been given so that I
(05:54):
don't have anything left.
Don't have anything left togive, whatever that means.
And your point about retirementas long as we're continuously
bearing fruit in the lives ofourselves and the lives of
others, I think we've got to getgoing.
We've still got purpose, we'vestill got a reason to carry on.
So I appreciate you sharing itand I appreciate the decision or
approach you made to be thatexcited about it.
(06:16):
I can see I hope to be goingwhen I'm 75 as well.
We shall see how that goes.
Hey, let's jump right into this.
Breakthrough leadership teams.
For those who may be a littlebit new to your work, what does
a breakthrough leadership teamlook like in general?
When you're working with othersright now, what are some of the
(06:37):
benefits that can result from abreakthrough leadership team.
Let's just start there from avision.
Speaker 1 (06:41):
Yeah, and just providing the foundation.
You know what I have seen.
I've been coaching andconsulting for over 35 years now
and what I have seen is, as theleadership team goes, so goes
the rest of the organization.
So it's got to start there.
And when you say, you know what?
What does a breakthroughleadership team look like?
(07:02):
Uh, the goal of a company.
If, if, if you're listening tothis podcast and you've got an
organization, you probablydidn't start your organization
with the goal of having a greatleadership team, and that's not
the goal.
Great leadership is a means toan end.
So I want to talk about whatthat end is, the way I think, of
(07:23):
what that end goal is.
I think it's about creating agreat company, and there are
three characteristics, I think,of creating a great company.
And number one it's aboutgrowth.
And growth is about the dollarsand cents.
When I say growth in thiscapacity, I mean consistent and
(07:45):
significant top and bottom linegrowth.
So if you don't have consistent, significant top and bottom
line growth, I don't think youhave a great team.
You probably don't have abreakthrough leadership team.
So growth is number one.
Number two is fulfillment.
I don't care how fast you'regrowing, if you wake up every
(08:05):
day and your team members wakeup every day and you dread
starting work.
I don't think you have a greatcompany and I don't think you're
on a great team.
So the first one is growth,second is fulfillment and the
third is impact.
If you are not adding value tothe world every day, I don't
(08:27):
think you have a great company.
And when I say adding value tothe world, some people think
peace in the Middle East,climate change.
But adding value to the worldcould be you fix leaky pipes
that your customers have, butyou've got to be adding value.
So I think a breakthroughleadership team and there are
(08:47):
six pillars of creating thatteam and we can go through those
at whatever level.
You want or not.
I'll leave that, john, up toyou.
So there are six pillars ofbuilding that team, but the end
result of that team is growth,fulfillment and impact.
Speaker 2 (09:04):
Love that.
Love those three criteria, ifyou will.
I'm just taking notes on thatto make sure we get back to
those and to your six pillars.
I was reading your book and inthe introduction that's when I
got hooked as you started totell this story, and I just want
to read this section and I wantto let you comment on it
because it hit me really hard.
(09:24):
It says leaders with a goodbusiness idea think they can
white knuckle it and make thingshappen.
You touched on this withregards to they didn't start
their business thinking they hadto build a leadership team.
That's how many businessleaders become successful in the
first place.
They launch a successfulcompany through unglamorous,
difficult work, but as thatcompany grows, long hours and
personal commitment aren'tenough to keep the company
(09:46):
moving forward.
The leader needs help and indesperation, they hire quickly
and wind up with a mediocre teamthat is unable to scale with
the company.
So you talked about that vision, that growth, fulfillment and
impact, but you also talk aboutthat from a challenge standpoint
in terms of what those leadersrun into.
What are some of the otherthings you see in those leaders
(10:08):
who are trying to build thosecompanies that are getting in
their way.
What are some of those barriers?
Speaker 1 (10:12):
Yeah, the first one is what you just mentioned.
It is the team kind of evolvesover time.
It starts off with three peoplearound a kitchen table along
with the founder, and then it'sfive people and then it's 10
people and the founder says I,you know, I, I can't have 10 P,
the all these 10 peoplereporting to me.
(10:33):
You know, joe, could you taketwo of these?
And Susan, could you take theseother two?
And then all of a sudden yougot 50, 75, a hundred people and
you've got this structure ofyour team.
That doesn't make sense but itevolved.
And you've got people that arestretched too thin, you've got
people that aren't clear on whatthey're accountable for.
You got the wrong people in thewrong seats.
(10:54):
So I think it's structure ofthe team gets in the way because
we're not proactive about it.
And I'll tell you that thebiggest thing and there are so
many, but I'm just going to, I'mjust going to grab two of them
the biggest thing is notprioritizing people growth.
That, I think, is the numberone thing that gets in the way.
(11:16):
It's not just a matter ofhaving the right team around you
.
That team has got to belearning and growing.
You've got to be assessing theperformance of your people.
You've got to be developing andcoaching your people,
challenging your people,re-recruiting them, coaching
people out of the organizationthat aren't a fit.
And you know most people whenthey think about creating a
(11:37):
great company, when they thinkabout growth, they do have the
right vision.
Do I have the right strategy?
Do I have the right processesand systems?
And, of course, all thosethings are important and, john,
you and I work with our clientson all those things.
But I have found, without adoubt, the number one driver of
profit growth is people growth.
(11:59):
People think I've got abusiness problem.
Is people growth?
People think I've got abusiness problem.
You don't have a businessproblem, you have a people
problem.
So we need to make, as leaders,we need to make people growth
our number one priority.
And the problem is, especiallyas things get difficult, people
(12:20):
growth becomes our last priorityas we're just trying to tread
water in 15 other areas.
Speaker 2 (12:24):
Yes, Great stuff.
Those are barriers to that.
That are things that folks haveto overcome.
I'm going to come back to acouple of them in our
conversation, but as I movethrough your book, look, I was
so excited when I saw chapterone self-leadership that that
leader who's running thatorganization that may have
bootstrapped this organizationfor 20 years, doesn't think that
(12:47):
they have to be the ones thathave to drive.
And you touch on a few thingsthat are important for leaders
from their self-development,including managing their
emotional state and developingan internal locus of control.
So touch on one or two of thosein terms of what are the action
plans for those leaders and howyou get them started on the
(13:08):
journey.
Because I know you also say youdon't just work with the team,
you insist on working with thetop leader as well.
Speaker 1 (13:13):
Absolutely, Absolutely.
And maybe you mentioned thelocus of control and you
mentioned emotional state, somaybe I'll cover a concept that
hits both of those.
And I actually have a TEDx thatI did, a TED talk I did back in
Gainesville, Florida, about twoand a half years ago that
touches on this.
(13:34):
It's called the Antidote toAnger.
But one of the key things Ilearned and frankly I say I
learned it.
I need to relearn it everysingle day and I learned it from
my son.
I have a son he's 30 now buthe's got Asperger's syndrome and
from the time he was probablytwo to the time he was in his
(13:56):
mid-teens, I am not proud of thefather I was and there's a
whole deep story behind that,but I'll keep it high level not
proud of the father I was, and abig reason for that was and I
wouldn't have looked at it thisway at the time is I was looking
at all the challenges my sonhad and in my mind he was
(14:17):
pushing my buttons on purpose.
He knew how to piss me off and,man, he was doing it every day
and we had good weeks and awhole lot of weeks from hell.
And one of the things I learnedover time that I now coach my
leaders on is this idea that noone wakes up in the morning and
(14:37):
says what could I screw up today?
I don't care if it's your, yourbitterest enemy, I don't care
if it's left or right on thepolitical spectrum, I don't care
if it's your most difficultteam member or peer.
No one wakes up in the morningsaying, what could I screw up
today?
You know, everybody is justtrying to do the best they can
(14:59):
with the resources they have.
I call that the law of positiveintent, and it doesn't mean
everybody's doing the rightthing.
But when someone's doingsomething that frustrates you or
makes you angry or you don'tunderstand it, as opposed to
lashing out because you believethey're doing something wrong on
purpose and we see that in ourpolarized society all the time.
(15:22):
Now, if you believe they'rejust trying to do the best they
can with the resources they have, it causes you to get curious.
Not angry, but curious.
You want to know what do theyknow that I don't know?
What do I know that they don'tknow what resources do I have?
That they may not have Causesyou to ask questions.
And that is not the only lessonin self-leadership that's in
(15:46):
the book or that I teach myclients, but this idea, the law
of positive intent, is such afoundational lesson for people
to learn to manage their ownemotional state and take control
of their lives, versus thinkingthe problems out there with all
these other pain in the neckpeople.
No, no, no, it's got to startwith you.
Speaker 2 (16:08):
Love that, your locus control.
As I read that in the story, Iremember there was a CEO that I
was coaching and he loved tolook at his team and say I want
you guys to tell me what part ofthe problem am I?
It was such a humble questionthat he would ask those others
to point to him to understandwhat he wasn't seeing about
himself inside of that locuscontrol that needed to be
(16:29):
improved upon.
And I just I love as you gothrough it, as you go through
that with those individualleaders.
What are some of thedisciplines you encourage those
leaders to have to be successfulat developing their teams?
Speaker 1 (16:44):
Well there, when it comes to discipline, I really
think of three major disciplines.
Now I'm not talking aboutself-leadership anymore,
although it's impacted, but whenit comes to the team, there are
, I think, three high-prioritykind of disciplines of execution
(17:04):
, and the number one disciplineis aligning around a small
number of priorities.
I talk to CEOs all the time andI say, all right, tell me what
are your top priorities for 2025?
And they list out 12 things.
It's like, well, ifeverything's a priority,
nothing's a priority.
So those aren't.
Now they list out two or three.
(17:25):
I know maybe they've got it.
So the first thing is aligningaround a small number of
priorities, whether that'sannual priorities or quarterly
priorities, and I call thoserocks the quarterly priorities.
So that's number one.
Number two is measuring whatmatters, and by measuring what
matters, I mean you may callthem key performance indicators
(17:48):
or productivity measures.
Think of marketing.
If I say you're accountable formarketing, that tells me almost
nothing about what myexpectations are of you.
Does it mean our website wentlive on time?
Our new logo has a lot ofpretty colors.
A bunch of people are clickingon our email marketing campaign,
(18:09):
or does it mean you've broughtin at least 10 marketing
qualified email marketingcampaign, or does it mean you've
brought in at least 10marketing qualified leads each
week?
What does it mean?
Well, I don't know unless wespecify that.
So it's not only aroundaligning around a small number
of priorities, it's measuringthose things that matter so we
can keep score and people knowwhether they're winning or
losing.
And then, third is having aconsistent planning and
(18:31):
communication rhythm.
And what I mean by planning andcommunication rhythm are things
like annual planning retreats,and in my world those are
typically two-day retreats thatI coach and facilitate my
clients through.
But you don't need a coach, youcan do it yourself.
But there's annual planningretreats, there's quarterly
(18:53):
planning.
In my mind, quarterly planningis the most important type of
planning.
Back when I was in my twentiesand thirties and worked for big
management consulting firms, wewould do three and five year
plans and they would bebeautiful.
Millions of dollars spent plansand they would be beautiful.
Millions of dollars spentbeautiful PowerPoints sitting in
(19:14):
binders on a shelf gatheringdust, because five months after
they created it, the worldchanged.
They stopped holding each otheraccountable.
So quarterly planning iscritical.
So it's annual retreat,quarterly planning, monthly
check-ins, weekly accountabilitymeetings, quarterly planning,
monthly check-ins, weeklyaccountability meetings, daily
(19:35):
huddles, that whole planning andcommunication rhythm is so
important.
Including one of the mostimportant things is having at
best weekly, at worst bi-weekly,one-on-one meetings with all of
your direct reports.
That is critical.
Speaker 2 (19:48):
Hey listeners, I want to take a quick moment to share
something special with you.
Many of the topics anddiscussions we have on this
podcast are areas where Iprovide coaching and consulting
services for individuals andorganizations.
If you've been inspired by ourconversation and are seeking a
catalyst for change in your ownlife or within your team, I
invite you to visitcoachjohngallaghercom forward
(20:09):
slash free call to sign up for afree coaching call with me.
It's an opportunity for us toconnect, discuss your unique
challenges and explore howcoaching or consulting can
benefit you and your team.
Okay, let's get back to theshow.
I love that governance model asyou walk through Annual,
quarterly, monthly, weekly andeven daily to a certain extent
(20:32):
in terms of what's happening,that are very important.
That rhythm that happens andthen having the discipline to
actually carry that out.
Again, just like the binder, itdoesn't mean a hill of beans if
you wrote it down, if you'renot going to execute on it.
And then I love the start out,the prioritizing things.
You can do anything you want.
You just can't do everythingyou want and if you got too many
priorities, you got nopriorities.
(20:52):
You know that and I appreciateit.
Again, we get so aligned, mike,it's unbelievable.
The other side of that youtouched on in the book with the
teams was a lot of times theseleaders who started out on their
own, they're bootstrapping,they're working really hard.
They don't necessarily have thestructures and processes in
place and when they look toscale, they hire on kind of the
(21:14):
first people, they hire fast andthey hire friends or others to
help them out, and then therecomes a time, ultimately, that
those individuals are not goingto take them where they need to
go.
And I know you touch on it.
The difficult decision ofletting a leader go is never
easy.
How do you coach them to therealization that I either need
to change this leader or I needto change this leader?
(21:35):
How do you coach them there?
Speaker 1 (21:36):
Yeah, and, by the way , this question is so important
to me.
It was part of my bookBreakthrough Leadership Team
that you're talking about.
It's kind of the sixth pillarof building a great leadership
team is assessing talent,coaching and developing talent.
But it's so important that I'vegot a book another book coming
out in October called theStrength of Talent how to Grow
your People to Grow your Profitwhere the whole book dives about
(22:00):
a thousand miles deeper on thatconcept.
So this is so near and dear tome and you know the way I coach
leaders on.
It is, you know, number onethere's got to be a rhythm, like
I just talked about theplanning and communication
rhythm.
I have my leadership teams meetevery quarter it's part of our
quarterly planning process wherethey do something I call the
(22:23):
quarterly talent assessmentmeeting, where every quarter
doesn't mean they're going backand doing quarterly performance
reviews with their people, whereevery quarter doesn't mean
they're going back and doingquarterly performance reviews
with their people.
I happen to think annual andquarterly performance reviews
are the worst inventions evercreated in business.
But I'm talking about leadersworking as peers to talk about
debate, hold each otheraccountable for building
(22:45):
strength of talent within theirorganization.
What are we doing?
To challenge our best people,to re-recruit our best people,
to promote our best people, toreward our best people, to
leverage, coach and mentor them.
You know what are we doing?
To take our mediocre folks andcoach them up and then, for the
(23:06):
low performing folks which arethey're low performing either
because they're they're, they'relow in productivity and or
they're not living our corevalues.
Speaker 2 (23:15):
They've got more more behavioral.
Speaker 1 (23:17):
And, by the way, I don't care if they're your best
salesperson, I don't care howproductive they are, they're not
living your core values.
They're toxic to yourorganization.
So that is something that thatI hold my leadership teams
accountable for all the time,especially in these quarterly
meetings.
But throughout and you know toomany I see too many leadership
(23:42):
teams, too many leaders go three, six, 12 months, two years,
letting low performers stickaround.
And one of my philosophies isfire fast, hire slow.
We cannot afford to let theselow performers be toxic to our
(24:04):
organization.
Hold it back.
And, by the way, these lowperformers are not bad people,
they're just a bad fit for yourorganization.
And one of the ways I like toreframe it for people that, hey,
we're good people, we don'twant to just go fire people.
They've got lives too.
But the way I reframe it andwhy fire fast is not a heartless
philosophy is because I trulybelieve everyone has the ability
(24:29):
to be a superstar somewhere,and I normally, when I'm working
with teams, I put up on a slideeverybody's got the ability to
be a superstar and I say doeseverybody believe that?
And people are like you wenttoo far, mike.
I don't believe everyone couldbe a superstar.
And then I put up the wordssomewhere, the word somewhere,
and people go oh, that makessense.
(24:50):
And if they could be asuperstar somewhere and they're
a low performer for you?
By you keeping them around,you're not only hurting the team
and the company and yourclients and yourself.
You're actually hurting thatteam member because you're
holding them back from goingsomewhere where they can perform
at a higher level.
Speaker 2 (25:11):
Love that when I think about that.
There's so many organizationsand you touch on it like it's
not about them being a badperson.
It's really about fit, and youknow this one again.
I'll tie it back to GrandpaArchie in terms of when you do
have to let someone go at somepoint in time.
If you've done your jobcorrectly as a leader and you
(25:33):
have those systems in place tohelp them out, it won't be a
surprise for one thing, andyou'll be able to inspire and
encourage them to that somewherethat you're talking about,
where they can continuously addvalue rather than demotivating
them, deflating them, ultimatelyresulting in they lose their
spirit and they think thatthey're not worthy of doing
anything.
(25:54):
I think it's got to be a huge.
It is a huge challenge that Ihear from leaders all the time
oh, he's a nice guy, he's afriend, my wife knows him.
No, I mean, I get that part ofit, but sometimes in your
organization you will get whatyou tolerate, and it's keeping
you from performing at a levelthat you want to get to.
(26:15):
Which leads me to my otherpoint in terms of another
barrier.
Maybe this sits in one of thepillars also is the consensus
you say can be a trap.
Tell me about more about that.
Speaker 1 (26:28):
The world is moving too fast to wait until everybody
.
And, by the way, the world ismoving faster than ever.
I'm 60 years old.
When I was 25, the world wasmoving pretty fast too.
So I think that's the nature ofthings, and if we wait until we
have full agreement on our team, the opportunity passes us by.
(26:50):
And I'm not saying, as a leader,be dictatorial and just say
here's the answer.
That is not a recipe forsuccess either.
But, man, we've got to debatethese issues and then we got to
make a decision, and I actually,like Colin Powell, had this
rule that I liked called the40-70 rule of making a decision,
and the idea was you make adecision when you're somewhere
(27:13):
in between 40% and 70%, sureit's the right decision, because
if you make a decision whenyou're less than 40%, well now
you're just throwing a dart.
You haven't analyzed it ortalked about it enough, or
researched it enough.
But if you're waiting untilyou're 80, 90, 100%, sure, again
(27:33):
, life is going to pass you by.
And one of the philosophies Ilike to try and get across to my
leaders is very often there'sno one right decision, there is
only a decision you make at thetime and then you execute the
(27:56):
heck out of it.
Very often it's not.
You're successful not becauseyou made the right decision,
because you made a decision andthen you executed it.
So, yes, don't make them tooquick.
But, man, waiting untilconsensus, waiting until
everybody agrees, that could bedeath.
And there's a concept I like touse called disagree and commit.
(28:17):
Disagree and commit says ifyou're on my leadership team, as
long as you have a voice andyour voice was heard, the end
result may not be what youropinion was.
We may go with option B and youthought the right answer was
option A, but if you were partof that discussion and you're
part of this leadership team,you will leave this room
(28:39):
committed to that decision as ifit was your own.
Speaker 2 (28:43):
Amen.
Love that philosophy.
I think that's so powerful.
You're not going to go out andthrow that idea under the bus
and bring it down.
You're expected as a leader tosupport it, to commit to it as
you walk through that door.
Love that.
The other thing I often chatabout in that decision-making
and I love the 40-70s first timeI heard that with regards to
Colin Powell but is to ask thequestion even when you're at
(29:05):
that 70 point and say what's theworst thing that can happen?
And if we can take the worstthing, then we can go ahead and
make this decision, because thenwe can still respond to that
worst thing if it does happenand, frankly, we might be able
to put some solution in place toensure that that doesn't happen
.
Another I call it a failuremodes and effects analysis, but
(29:30):
another way to make sure thatthat doesn't happen.
So love that 40-70.
Very cool as you go forwardwith your learning and your
teaching, Shifting gears just alittle bit.
You say if you haven'trecommended a book in 90 minutes
, there's a problem.
Now you can't recommend one ofyour two books or your third
one's coming out soon.
What's one or two books thatyou recommend every leader
should read with, specificallywith regards to developing teams
.
Speaker 1 (29:51):
Yeah, great question.
And, man, if I can't recommendmy own?
No, some of them that.
One of them that I love is thecoachingit by Michael Bungay
Stanier and the Coaching Habit.
The whole idea behind it is wetend as leaders to want to give
advice and very often when wegive advice we're giving bad
(30:15):
advice.
We're solving a problem that'sa different problem than that
person has.
We're giving advice that mayreflect something that would be
the right action for us, butit's not necessarily the right
action for the other person.
So Michael Bungay-Stanier in theCoaching Habit talks about he
actually has seven questions,and I've got them up on my board
(30:35):
here somewhere seven questionsthat every leader should be
asking.
It's about the questions andmodeling a way of thinking
through those questions.
So the Coaching Habit byMichael Mungay-Stanier is a
great one.
Multipliers by Liz Wiseman isone of the best books I've read
as to how to lead and manageothers.
(30:58):
And then you may have asked fortwo, but I'm gonna throw in a
third as a bonus.
There's a great book that Irecommend to all of the
leadership teams I work with,called who, the A Method for
Hiring by Jeff Smart, and it isthe best methodology and
(31:23):
framework I've seen for how youincrease the chances of hiring
in individuals that have thebest chance to be superstars in
your organization.
Speaker 2 (31:37):
Love that.
Who Hiring great Three books.
I'll put the links in the shownotes.
Speaker 1 (31:42):
Those are all three books I have not below the links
to my books of course below toyour two, of course.
Speaker 2 (31:49):
Now the third one you're coming out with you're
going deep on that one pillarthat you talked about.
Who did you write that one for?
Speaker 1 (31:56):
that one.
You know it's interesting, it'sgreat.
It's great question becausebreakthrough leadership team was
really written for CEOs,entrepreneurs and very senior
leaders.
The strength of talent is tosome degree for those same folks
, but I broaden the audience alittle bit.
This book is really also foranyone that has others reporting
(32:22):
to them.
Now, sure people that aspire tolead could read it as well, but
really anyone who has anydirect reports is going to get
great value from this book.
Number one just driving home thewhole philosophy and helping
them understand why peoplegrowth needs to be their number
(32:42):
one priority, but then givingthem a very, very specific
framework for how to assessperformance, coach and develop
performance, hold themselves andothers accountable for building
strength of talent on the teams.
And there's even there's even ameasure that I call the talent
(33:02):
density indicator in that book.
One of the problems withdeveloping people is it's not
very measurable.
I say the number one driver ofprofit growth is people growth.
Problem with that statement isyou you know the the cliche you
can't, you can't manage what youdon't measure.
And it's it's the clichebecause it's mostly true.
Well, the number one driver ofprofit growth is people growth.
(33:25):
Do we measure profit growth?
Of course we do.
We can go around, I can goaround the room any group of
CEOs and they would tell us downto the 10th of a percent how
they're doing against plan, howthey're doing against last year.
But if I said how you doing onpeople growth, they'd say pretty
good, pretty good is not ameasure.
So with the framework I have inthere's actually in that I have
(33:48):
in the book there's a frameworkcalled the talent density
indicator which is a specificmeasure of strength of talent
that I'm really proud of.
So, so really excited about thebook.
Speaker 2 (34:00):
That's very exciting to come out because, you're
right, it is a little bittougher to measure that people
growth component what that meansto organizations a lot of
different ways they try to withregards to engagement scores and
I'm not a big fan of surveyswhen it comes to measuring that
type of thing but if you've gota scorecard, I'm excited to see
it, Mike, as it comes out.
Mike, this has been a greatconversation.
I know we could keep going andI know we're going to talk again
(34:22):
.
How do folks get in touch withyou and how do you want them to
go and get your books?
Speaker 1 (34:26):
Yeah, the best way to get in touch with me is my
website, is mike-goldmancom andthe new book.
You could order any of my bookson Amazon, but I'm most focused
on the new book and trying toget it on a bestseller list.
So that's actually out therefor pre-order now.
Depending on when you'relistening to this, it's coming
(34:48):
out October of 25.
But if you go to Amazon and youlook for the Strength of Talent
by Mike Goldman, you will findit and you can pre-order it
there.
Speaker 2 (34:58):
Excellent Folks, get out there and get that book.
Mike, thanks again for sharingyour wisdom with this group.
Like I said, I know we're goingto be chatting again more the
kindred spirits that we are withregards to our passion for
leadership development.
I'm going to give you the lastword and finish you up with the
question.
I always have my first timeguests.
I'm going to give you abillboard.
You can put that billboardanywhere you want to.
(35:20):
What's the message that you puton that billboard and why do
you put that message on there?
Speaker 1 (35:27):
I'm going to be a little redundant here.
The message that goes on thatbillboard is everyone is just
off at people cutting me off onthe highway and other people.
(35:50):
So I need to be reminded ofthat all the time.
So, man, I need a whole bunchof billboards out there, not for
everybody else, just for me.
Speaker 2 (36:00):
Just for you, I got you, I gotcha, I gotcha, mike.
Yeah, and I think that one forme is the folks who leave their
shopping carts in the middle ofthe parking lot at the grocery
store Drives me nuts.
It's a pet peeve of mine.
Like, just put it back, thecorral's right there, Just put
it back in.
Everybody's got a story.
Speaker 1 (36:27):
Everybody's doing the best they the book launch.
Speaker 2 (36:29):
I'll be sure to get my copy here as soon as we sign
off.
Thank you.
Thanks for having me on theshow, Absolutely.
And that wraps up anotherepisode of the Uncommon Leader
Podcast.
Thanks for tuning in today.
If you found value in thisepisode, I encourage you to
share it with your friends,colleagues or anyone else who
could benefit from the insightsand inspiration we've shared.
Also, if you have a moment, I'dgreatly appreciate if you could
leave a rating and review onyour favorite podcast platform.
(36:50):
Your feedback not only helps usto improve, but it also helps
others discover the podcast andjoin our growing community of
uncommon leaders.
Until next time, go and growchampions.
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