April 15, 2025 • 37 mins
Trust is the ultimate currency in today's business landscape, and nobody understands this better than Marcus Sheridan. In this fascinating conversation, Marcus reveals how his near-business failure during the 2008 recession led him to discover powerful principles of trust-building that transformed his pool company into an industry leader and launched his career as a sought-after speaker and author.
At the heart of Marcus's philosophy are what he calls the "four pillars of a known and trusted brand" - be willing to say what others won't say, show what others won't show, sell how others won't sell, and be more human than the competition. Through compelling examples like Yale Appliance publishing which brands require the most service calls and his own company's radical transparency about pricing, Marcus demonstrates how vulnerability creates trust at scale.
The pride cycle emerges as a fascinating thread throughout our conversation - how pain leads to innovation, innovation leads to success, success breeds comfort, comfort kills innovation, and the cycle repeats. Breaking this cycle requires constant self-auditing and a willingness to disrupt your own business before someone else does it for you.
With AI transforming entire industries seemingly overnight, Marcus delivers perhaps his most provocative challenge: businesses cannot allow personal opinions about technology to interfere with smart business decisions. Those creating a culture of AI experimentation today will appear superhuman to competitors tomorrow, offering better services at previously impossible prices.
Whether you're looking to become the most trusted voice in your industry, break free from the pride cycle, or simply build a more resilient business in uncertain times, this episode offers practical wisdom you can implement immediately. As Marcus so powerfully states: "It's dumb not to dumb it down" - the goal isn't to sound smart, but to be understood.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
As a business owner for now 24 years, I cannot allow
my personal opinions, john, toscrew up smart business
decisions.
And even if you think AI is theend of the world and it's the
Terminator, and it's going tocome to get us and it's going to
be in 25 years, the world'sjust going to suddenly boom, be
(00:21):
gone and it's going to be theMatrix.
My point to you is wouldn't yourather have a successful
business between now and then?
Speaker 2 (00:34):
Hey, Uncommon Leaders , Welcome back.
This is the Uncommon LeaderPodcast.
I'm your host, John Gallagher.
We've got a class today oncommunication and connection
from Marcus Sheridan, who's theauthor of the new Endless
Customers.
He's also the best-sellingauthor of they Ask you Answer.
But what I love about the storythat Marcus tells is some of
(00:56):
the things that he's done in hisown personal business to save
it through the examples ofleadership that he's led through
.
A speaker who is now sharingthat message across many stages
and, ultimately, a guy thathelps leaders improve their
communication and connect betterwith others.
(01:16):
In the case of his book, we'regoing to focus.
It's going to be talking aboutcustomers in that space, but I
think it flies right in the faceof leadership and how we have
to be better at connecting.
So, Marcus Sheridan, welcome tothe Uncommon Leader Podcast.
How are you doing today?
Speaker 1 (01:30):
John, it's an honor to be here, buddy, and I think
we're going to have a great,great conversation, one that the
listeners are going to be ableto truly take some stuff away
and apply, which is, to me, whatit's all about.
Speaker 2 (01:41):
I think that is what it's about.
I think they'll be able to runsomething through right off the
bat.
So let's start you off, thoughthe same time, same way I start
off all first time guests, andthat's to tell me a story from
your childhood that stillimpacts who you are as a person
or as a leader today.
Speaker 1 (01:56):
I think I was about 11 years old and uh, and I grew
up in a home that was lowermiddle class, consistently in
debt.
And one time I was outside andmy dad's white pickup truck was
(02:19):
outside the garage just sittingthere and some man pulls up to
the house and he gets out of hisvehicle Another person was
driving him gets out of hisvehicle, he gets in my dad's
truck and he drives it away andI was like what's going on?
And I saw my dad just kind oflike watched it and I was so
(02:43):
confused it's just a completelybaffled what's going on.
And so finally I'm like dad,this guy he just took your truck
you watched.
He said that was the bank.
Speaker 2 (02:54):
I said I don't understand.
Speaker 1 (02:55):
He said I I defaulted on my payments and they
repossessed the truck and hewalked away.
And it left quite an impressionon me about debt and just how
quickly, if you're not a goodsteward, things can be taken
(03:20):
from you.
And of course, it's funny howthose lessons would come back
later on in life as a businessowner and as a leader myself.
But yeah, that left quite theimpression as a young man.
Speaker 2 (03:32):
Well, you've got a lot going on right now and it
probably aligns really well withthat story of your company back
in 2008.
You were a partner in a poolcompany riding the real estate
industry I was in real estate atthe time as well down to the
bottom no pun intended in termsof the bottom of the pool in
2008.
And you had challenges to faceand choices to make if you're
(03:55):
going to keep your businessgoing.
Speaker 1 (03:57):
How did you do that.
Speaker 2 (03:58):
What did you learn and how did you do that?
Speaker 1 (03:59):
Yeah, john, we started the company in 2001.
I was right out of college.
Then you get the crash of 2008,2009, and it looked like we
were going to go out of business.
But the one great thing aboutpain and suffering is that and
I'm sure anybody that'slistening to this has felt is
that it forces us outside of ourcomfort zone and oftentimes,
(04:19):
when we're in pain, that's whenwe do the thing that we should
have been doing a long time ago.
And, unfortunately, most peopleneed that motivation of pain.
The great companies, the greatleaders, they come from that
perspective of we're in paineven when they're prosperous.
This way, they don't have to,you know, they don't have that
constant cycle of pain,prosperity, pain, prosperity,
(04:42):
and so, in our case, 2008, 2009,.
I'm like we're going to lose it.
But I really started to learnabout the buyer during that time
and studied how the buyer waschanging, how I was changing
myself, looking at things likeinbound content, marketing,
stuff like that.
But what I really heard in mysimple pool guy mind was, marcus
, if you just obsess over yourcustomers' questions, worries,
(05:02):
fears, issues, concerns, andyou're willing to address those
online, honestly, transparently,you might save your business.
And so, to make a long storyshort.
We created just a slew ofcontent, articles and videos
that went online that reallyaddressed every single question
I'd ever heard as a pool guy,and we became the most
(05:22):
trafficked swimming pool websitein the world.
As a pool guy, and we becamethe most trafficked swimming
pool website in the world, andit went so well that by 2017, we
were getting so many leads fromjust around the country that we
started manufacturing our ownpools.
And then by 2020, we became thefastest growing manufacturer of
fiberglass pools in the US.
We had the first franchise offiberglass pool companies in the
(05:45):
US and I was able to sell themanufacturing side of the
business in 2020, 2021.
I still own the original RiverPools, which is essentially a
franchisee of the biggerfranchisor, but this whole
journey was documented in mybook they Ask you Answer, along
with this framework that we used, and that framework has now
been applied to hundreds ofthousands of companies around
(06:05):
the globe, and fundamentally,it's about how to become the
most known and trusted brand inyour market.
But what's wild, john, is mostleaders don't have the audacity,
the courage, the faith and thecommon sense to follow the
principles, even though they'reso bloody obvious.
Speaker 2 (06:25):
Why don't they what gets in their way?
Speaker 1 (06:29):
Yeah.
So let's just analyze it.
And so, because of whathappened in November of 22 with
ChatGPT and AI and its impact onthe world, its impact on Google
, its impact on sales andmarketing, I said we need a
third version of they Ask, youAnswer.
And that book is called EndlessCustomers and if you're
listening, you can find it atendlesscustomerscom.
And so in this book, we havecome up with four essential
(06:53):
pillars of a known and trustedbrand.
I'll tell you each one of thefour and then we'll quickly see
why folks push back on this.
All right, and it's going to bepretty fun because it's an
exercise in buyer psychology inmany ways.
So the first one is be willingto say online what other
companies aren't willing to sayAll right.
So there's a bunch ofdirections we could go with this
(07:14):
, but let me just tell you onereally quick, and I actually
opened the book with this story.
It's so fascinating Amazingleader named Steve Sheinkopf.
He's the CEO of Yale Appliancein Boston, massachusetts.
Now Steve came to me almost adecade ago and he said Marcus,
I'm just frustrated.
We're producing this contentand stuff, but we're just not
really seeing growth when itcomes to traffic, lead sales
(07:35):
online.
I want to grow.
We're not scaling like we needto.
What's wrong?
And I looked at his stuff thathe was producing.
I said problem is the content.
You're producing, just likeevery other business out there,
but you're not really addressingwhat buyers want to know.
You're not obsessed with thebuyer.
He's like well, what do youmean?
I'm like everything they askyou have you addressed it?
Well, online?
(07:56):
He took that to heart.
He called me a few months later.
He said you know, one of thequestions I keep getting is what
are the least serviced, mostreliable appliance brands that
you sell?
Because they sell kitchenappliances.
And he said my dilemma is I'vegot all this data, marcus, that
I could openly talk about this,but if I openly talk about it,
(08:16):
I've got to throw some of thesemanufacturers, some of these
vendors, under the bus, right.
And so I said what are yougoing to do?
He said well, I guess I'm goingto focus on the group that
matters most the customer, thebuyer.
Make a long story short.
The first time he did this wasin 2017.
He's done this every year sincethen a series of articles and
videos that address the leastservice, most reliable appliance
(08:39):
brands.
Now here's what's wild about it, though, john.
What he does is he takes allthe service calls he ran from
the previous year.
He tracks every unit he soldfrom each brand as a retailer.
Every service call he ran foreach brand.
Therefore, you learn the leastserviced all the way down to the
most serviced brand that hesells.
(09:00):
He publishes it as this hugechart on his website, and you
literally see the 2025 list thatsays the least service was
Gagadon and one of the mostservice was GE.
And so it's like wow, and that'swhat makes him different,
because did the vendors getupset?
(09:20):
The ones that were rankedpoorly, yes, and what did he say
?
He said well, this is data.
That's all I'm doing is showingthe data, so maybe you should
worry more about making a betterproduct than getting frustrated
for the fact that I shared thedata of our service calls.
That's how he became thegatekeeper of that industry.
(09:41):
That article, the first year itwas written, got 50,000 reads a
month on average, 50,000readers a month for a year
straight.
Right Alone, the series hasdone millions in views and
visitors just to his website.
This is why Yale Appliance is,in many ways, a household name.
When it comes to kitchenappliances today, they are the
gatekeepers.
(10:01):
This is what's possible, butyou see how many.
What percentage of leaderslistening to this right now.
If they owned like an applianceretail shop would do something
that audacious.
Speaker 2 (10:14):
Most would not.
Great question, I mean.
I'm thinking.
The thing that comes to my mindis well, I got consumer reports
to do that for me.
Well, don't let anybody else dothat for me.
Speaker 1 (10:22):
To your point you, would you ever leave?
Speaker 2 (10:24):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (10:26):
Why would you allow?
someone else to dictate yoursuccess, the success of your
company or even theconversations that are having
within your space.
My obsession is if anybody'sthinking it about the product or
service that I sell.
I, as a leader, want to makesure that my brand, my company,
is a part of that conversation.
(10:46):
So Steve Sheinkopf was willingto say what other CEOs and
leaders in his space weren'twilling to say, and see the
whole problem.
You know it's wild, john.
I've been speaking aboutdisruptive, audacious sales and
marketing practices for thebetter part of 12, 13 years.
During this period of time, thenumber one email I've gotten
(11:07):
isn't from business owners andleaders saying hey, marcus, we
want to grow like Steve.
That's the number two type ofemail that I get.
The number one type of emailI've gotten from marketers
Marketers saying you know,marcus, I get it, but the
problem is leadership doesn't.
They won't allow me to do someof these things that I know
would generate massive success.
Bad, very bad.
Speaker 2 (11:30):
So that's who you wrote it for, right.
I mean, you wrote it for thedisruptor ultimately.
You had a disruptor in mindwhen you wrote it.
Speaker 1 (11:36):
Yeah, for the ones that are willing to be the
digital David in a land ofGoliaths, that want to make
their own rules and not play bythe rules they've been given,
because ultimately we see thisover the history of the world
the rule breakers always end upbecoming the rule makers.
And the previous leaders becomethe rule followers because they
were afraid to replace theirown business models Pretty much
(11:57):
similar to what Google's doingright now.
Right, google's going to betaken over over the course of
the next five to 10 years unlessthey do a dramatic U-turn in
their current approach.
They want to continue to feedtheir revenue stream with paid
ads, and so the user experienceright now for Google search
isn't nearly as good as it isfor some of these AI platforms.
(12:17):
A lot of people are stilllearning about them, so they
don't necessarily know that, butunless Google changes, they
will be replaced by a better UXfor the market, and you see,
this is what we see over andover again with that pride
prosperity cycle that we weretalking about earlier.
Speaker 2 (12:36):
Hey listeners, I want to take a quick moment to share
something special with you.
Many of the topics anddiscussions we have on this
podcast are areas where Iprovide coaching and consulting
services for individuals andorganizations.
If you've been inspired by ourconversation and are seeking a
catalyst for change in your ownlife or within your team, and
are seeking a catalyst forchange in your own life or
within your team, I invite youto visit coachjohngallaghercom
(12:59):
forward slash free call to signup for a free coaching call with
me.
It's an opportunity for us toconnect, discuss your unique
challenges and explore howcoaching or consulting can
benefit you and your team.
Okay, let's get back to theshow.
Absolutely.
Let's just go there right now,because I saw that at the end of
(13:20):
your book, in terms of one ofthose barriers is the pride
cycle.
So you've said that a coupletimes.
Tell me about the pride cycleand what exists in that, because
you say pain, prosperity, butthere's other pieces of that.
Speaker 1 (13:30):
Yeah, it's quite fascinating because when you
understand how the pride cycleworks, you see it in every facet
of your life, and not just yourlife, business, personal.
You see it in the history ofthe world.
I mean entire countries andcultures and civilizations rise
and fall with this thing calledthe pride cycle.
So essentially how it works isimagine a circle and at the
(13:52):
bottom of the circle you havepain.
And this circle is essentiallya journey that we're going on.
And because you're in pain andlet's just be hypothetical,
let's do a really simple one ona personal level.
You're overweight, you'reunhealthy and you're like man,
I've just let myself go.
Now, because you're in pain,you say I got to make changes
enough.
(14:12):
So you have disgust, I'm goingto make changes, I am going to
get uncomfortable because I'mmore frustrated with this
current pain than the pain ofchange.
And so we start to do the littlethings.
Maybe we cut out the sweets,maybe we start to go to the gym
or get the exercise or get onthe treadmill, but we start to
(14:33):
do the little things.
And because we start to do thelittle things, we start to get
results.
Because we start to get results, we start to experience
momentum.
And now we're coming up thatleft side of the circle and by
doing the little things we startto finally get to the top of
the circle, which is pleasure.
Pleasure means man, I did it, Ilost the 20 pounds I am so proud
(14:54):
of myself.
Yeah, look at me.
But something happens when weget to that place of pleasure
Very human we get comfortableand we say you know what, maybe
I can cheat a little bit today,maybe I can just, you know, have
that extra serving, maybe Idon't need to go to the gym
today.
So we stop doing the littlethings that got us to that place
and because we stopped doingthe little things, we don't need
(15:14):
to go to the gym today.
So we stopped doing the littlethings that got us to that place
.
And because we stopped doingthe little things, we don't even
realize that at first we startto slide down the right side of
the circle.
And so you can imagine.
The right side is stop doingthe little things In business.
It's stop innovating, stoppushing, stop disrupting.
Get fat, get happy, getcomfortable, become Kodak,
become Blackberry, right, andjust don't change.
(15:37):
And because of that, all of asudden we're back to where we
started, and that's the circle.
This is why you see economiesrise and economies falls.
They come into debt and thenthey, you know, quit the
spending like or you know, youunderstand what I'm saying.
It's like there's like thiscycle that you see with
economies.
You see this cycle, you know,with governments and with
(15:58):
politics, certainly withrelationships.
My goodness, I mean the personthat's like I'm going on date
night every Friday because youknow we're seeing a therapist, a
counselor, and I'm going to dothe little things.
It's like, oh, you know,relationship is good, but you
stopped doing the date night.
And you know relationship isgood, but you stopped doing the
date night.
And you know you stopped doingyou know like five love
languages or whatever it is.
And then suddenly you're likeoh, we're having problems again.
Speaker 2 (16:24):
We don't know what happened.
Pride cycle, love that and Ithink about that.
You know, the I've often usedin my coaching said people will
change when the displeasure ofremaining the same use the
wordust, is greater than thediscomfort of the change itself,
because it's going to betraining new muscles one way or
the other.
If you stay with fitness, getyourself in good shape, but you
stop doing those little things,next time you get back in the
(16:45):
program it's going to hurt again.
Speaker 1 (16:46):
It's just going to hurt.
It's like I don't want the pain.
It's which pain would youprefer to choose?
That's right.
Right, I'm either going to geton the treadmill and experience
the pain of that, or I'm goingto experience the pain of
looking down and not being ableto see my feet.
Like it's the same.
Principally speaking, it's thesame.
(17:08):
So, yeah, and it's amazing tome how, when I've looked at my
life and I look at the ups anddowns, usually it's almost
always because somehow the pridecycle had crept in.
Speaker 2 (17:24):
It's so real.
When I read it I just smiled.
I'm like this is exactly whatwe go through.
You start doing a littleresearch on it.
It's crazy how much research isavailable.
It seems like to your point, inreligion, in our spiritual
journey as well.
It's part of that too.
I mean, it's very much a partof what you find.
And so you get to the, let'ssay, we're at the top of that
(17:45):
cycle and we're at thatprosperity point.
What's the way in which youencourage organizations in which
you stay at that point and notgo back off of it?
What's the way in which youencourage organizations in which
you stay at that point and notgo back off of it?
What's the way to stay there?
Speaker 1 (17:58):
I think that's great.
And that just goes back to thatconstant self-audit, right?
So if you look, for example, atendless customers, there's
these four pillars, and thesefour pillars are meant to be an
audit that leadership teams canjust literally sit around the
boardroom table and say can wehonestly say we're doing this?
(18:18):
So what are the four pillars?
Number one are we saying onlinewhat others aren't saying?
Are we talking about the thingsthat others aren't talking
about?
One of the biggest examplesfrom the book is discussing cost
and price.
Now this comes from.
They Ask you answer.
It comes now into endlesscustomers.
I've got more data probablythan anybody in the world no,
(18:41):
not probably I do On the powerof discussing cost and price,
not giving exact prices, butteaching what goes into cost and
price and helping understand aprospect, understand value and,
roughly, what is this thinggoing to cost.
There is so much power in that,and so most companies refuse to
(19:01):
talk about that because they sayI want to wait so we can
control the conversation.
As a buyer, you don't want tobe controlled and so this is
very, very frustrating to you asa buyer.
So, number one say what othersaren't willing to say.
Number two show with video whatothers aren't willing to show
online.
So I would ask you, as we dothis audit, what are you saying
right now online that no oneelse in your space is saying?
(19:23):
Like Steve Sheinkop with thelist of appliance brands, right,
like all the companies thatwere willing to talk about cost
and price, even though 95% ofall industries, in terms of
companies, still don't talkabout cost and price at all,
especially most B2Bservice-based businesses.
I mean, don't even get mestarted there.
(19:45):
So, third pillar, my secondpillar was show what others
aren't willing to show withvideo.
What are you showing right nowthat others in your space aren't
willing to show with video?
Super fast example of that whenwe started manufacturing pools,
we were the first majormanufacturer to create an entire
series eight videos, 10 minuteslong each, that showed
(20:06):
everything about ourmanufacturing process.
If you wanted to startmanufacturing pools, john, you
could watch these videos and itwould be like a course on
getting started.
And my competitors, literallythey called us up and they said
why in the world are you showingthis proprietary information?
I'm like you think it'sproprietary, give me a break.
But the problem is that's thelie they're telling themselves.
So what are you showing, from avideo perspective, that none of
(20:29):
your competitors are willing toshow, or at least 95% of them?
Number three are you selling ina way that others aren't
willing to show, or at least 95%of them?
Number three are you selling ina way that others aren't
willing to sell.
Now this one, and I've got somepowerful examples in the book,
but the most obvious example areself-service tools.
Self-service tools areinteractive tools that generally
you put on a website that allowsomeone to get answers that
(20:50):
previously they would havegotten by talking to a human,
but they now get them by havingthis interactive experience.
So, for example, you could bethe with River Pools.
We were the first fiberglasspool manufacturer.
Now, keep in mind, we havedealers that set the in price.
Okay, we were the firstfiberglass pool manufacturer in
the world that had a pricingestimator on our website, and so
(21:12):
somebody could come on thereand, by answering a series of
questions about what size you'reinterested in, what shape
you're interested in, here'ssome options.
What options do you thinkyou're interested in?
Just like they would have ifthey were talking to a
salesperson.
So this estimator tool, thiscalculator I call it an
estimator tool, this estimatortool it allows them to make
choices.
(21:32):
It also allows them toself-educate as they go through
the estimator and then, by theend, it gives them a range as to
what they would spend.
Now here's what's amazing aboutthis I actually have a software
company that builds thesepricing estimators, that allows
companies, service-basedbusinesses, to build pricing
estimators and put them on thehomepage of their website.
(21:54):
And we've got so much data onthis now that we know that if
somebody puts a pricingestimator on their homepage that
says get instant estimate, okay, that's the call to action get
instant estimate.
Generally there's a three to500% increase in leads from the
day they do it.
So this is especially powerfulfor anybody that's in home
(22:14):
improvement, home services, butany type of service-based
business.
The number one question thatpeople have when they start the
buyer's journey, like the momentthey know they have a problem,
a need and they got to buysomething or acquire some type
of service or product the firstquestion is, roughly, roughly,
how much is this going to cost?
So when you have an estimator,it addresses that, and now, once
(22:35):
they get it addressed, they'relike, wow, I trust this company
so much.
That was really helpful.
But also it allows them now tocontinue with their buyer's
journey to the point where theyeventually reach out.
Most companies ignore thisbecause they're not following
the golden rule.
They're not treating thesecustomers, these visitors, as
they themselves would want to be, because they're afraid and
they're coming from thisscarcity mindset when, in
(22:57):
reality, if you come from thisabundance mindset, suddenly you
can generate more trust, moreleads than you've ever done.
So, like I said, that's all fora company I started called Price
Guide.
It's amazing the results thatwe're seeing.
Three to 500% is the increase,and so, if you're listening to
this right now, that's the typeof thing that you want to be
offering, and in the bookEndless Customers, I give you
(23:18):
five different types ofself-service tools, all game
changers, all applicable to mostbusinesses, and that's very,
very powerful.
Most companies say they selldifferently, john.
They don't, they don't.
And then, finally, the fourthone is be more human than others
are willing to be.
And then, finally, the fourthone is be more human than others
are willing to be.
What I mean by that is, as acompany, is there a face that is
(23:39):
associated with our brand?
If I say, colonel Sanders, youthink KFC?
Now somebody might hear thatand say, well, we're not KFC,
yeah.
But if somebody, I've gotmultiple companies that I own
today.
Right, I own a company calledImpact.
I own a company called PriceGuide I just mentioned it.
I own another communicationcompany, I own River Pools.
(24:02):
Now, what is more popular online?
My face and my brand or thesecompanies?
Far and away, it's my face, mybrand, right.
So I am a key person ofinfluence, as Daniel Priestley
would say, and because I'vebuilt my personal brand and I've
humanized me, people trust me.
And then I say, hey, I've gotthis thing, I've got this
(24:24):
company, I've got this software,I've got this pool company or
whatever the thing is, and nowthat generates the trust for
those businesses to take offvery quickly, right, and so
there is a very human element toany brand that I'm associated
with because of the human brandthat is behind it.
And so the audit that you haveto give to yourself as a leader
(24:45):
is what are we saying thatnobody else is saying?
What are we showing that no oneelse is showing?
How are we selling in a waythat no one else is selling and
how are we being more human thananyone else in our space?
That's the audit more human.
(25:11):
It was frowned upon for us tohave our face out as the
representative.
Speaker 2 (25:13):
People buy from people.
They're not buying from thatlogo and it used to absolutely
drive me crazy.
It was so hard to deal with.
I love that and the term youused in your book what sounds
like what you just defined wasthat trust deficit.
Ultimately, how wide that gapis is going to determine your
ability to grow.
There's no doubt about it.
Inside of that space.
Speaker 1 (25:33):
And never has there been an industry To your point,
john never has the trust deficitbeen so great.
Right, it's people.
People just don't know who totrust anymore.
They don't trust brands, theydon't trust politicians, they
don't trust you know the person,their neighbor.
It's like anything that you cando as a business and as a
leader to signal we're not likeeverybody else.
(25:55):
I mean, one of the simplestexamples I talk about is every
business on their website andjust on their just general like
messaging should explicitlystate who they're not a good fit
for.
But I bet you, if we had 100people listening to us through
this right now, at least 99 havenot said explicitly online this
(26:15):
is who we're not a good fit for.
But the moment you're willingto say what you're not is the
moment you become dramaticallymore attractive to those who you
are a good fit for.
Speaker 2 (26:25):
Can't be everything to everyone.
And again back to that trustdeficit.
Okay, that makes sense, and,frankly, I'll lead you to
someone who might be able tohelp you.
That's because I probably knowsomebody in that space.
That's the idea, um, and Iapologize, there's a book that I
read, uh, two years ago, thattalked about that with regards
to, hey, be a referrer to otherswho are with you.
(26:45):
That's competition, that'scompletion, um, and it's the
circle of life, it's good karma,it's good energy.
Speaker 1 (26:52):
It all comes back anyway Again to me.
Again, that goes back toabundance mentality versus
scarcity mentality.
There's a lot of businessowners, a lot of leaders out
there that come from a scarcitymindset, which I know you have
to help them overcome.
That's one of the big thingsthat you've got to snap them out
of, john, because otherwiseit's going to hold them back big
time for reaching theirpotential.
I never could have doneextraordinary things with River
(27:14):
Pools and become the mosttraffic-swingable website in the
world and then had this crazycareer as a speaker.
If I had said you know what?
Nobody's ever said that before,so I should probably not be
talking about that online.
Speaker 2 (27:29):
Within endless customers.
Another list that you talkedabout, if you will, were the
five components of an endlesscustomer right Content right
Website right Sales activities,right Technology, right Culture.
I mean, I'm I'm certainly awhether you save culture for
last intentionally, but again,is it another assessment tool
that you use inside withorganizations to say how do you
(27:50):
donate each one of these spaces?
Speaker 1 (27:52):
Yeah, so my company Impact helps organizations
become like a true light forthose five things and then hold
themselves accountable to it.
It's like this culture ofperformance when it comes to
endless customers.
This is one of those thingswhere so much and you've seen
(28:14):
this before so much of whatbusinesses do is a program.
It's not cultural, it's aprogram.
Hey, we're going to roll outthis new program and the program
it comes, it goes, it diesbecause it's meant to be finite.
It comes, it goes, it diesbecause it's meant to be finite.
(28:34):
Whereas you have to create aculture of performance, the
great Jim Rohn who I know youappreciate, john, and I adore as
my greatest mentor, I thinksaid you've got to learn to work
harder on yourself than you doon your job, and that never
stops.
That never goes away.
To have more than you got, yougot to become more than you are,
and are we instilling thatwithin our organizations?
Right, and so it's like thisculture of performance is really
(28:56):
a big one today, because, withAI, every one of your employees
right now should be in the AIsandbox looking for ways to
become faster and more effective.
And are you requiring them todo that, or are you just saying,
you know, it'd be really greatif you could, you know, maybe
take a look at AI and see if itcan help you.
(29:17):
Or are you saying I don't wantanybody here using AI unless
this or that?
Right, it's like what?
Because I can assure you thisthe amount of leaders that are
going to be stunned and shockedat what their competitors are
able to be stunned and shockedat what their competitors are
able to pull off and how AI willrevolutionize business models
in their totality in the next 12to 18 months is just going to
(29:39):
be like I said, it's just goingto be absurdly shocking to so
many people.
We're going to constantly lookaround the marketplace and say,
how can they do that, how canthey offer that, how can they
pull that off, how can they dothat much work or how can they
offer it at that price, whateverthe thing is, because they have
somehow become dramaticallymore efficient.
And there's pretty much one keyto that today is understanding
(30:02):
AI and what's possible, and noneof us truly understand it,
because we can't fathom wherethis is all going to be, but
those that are using it, theyfeel superhuman, and that's how
you and your team should feel,and when we say, you know,
having like creating thisculture of performance, that is
(30:24):
a big part of it moving forward.
Speaker 2 (30:27):
I love that.
I mean you touched on that interms of technologies as well,
and if you're going to be adisruptor, I mean too many
organizations sit on this sideof fear of AI and they say stay
away from it.
To go all the way on the otherside and be totally free with it
is not what you want as well,because you've got to maintain
your authenticity and thosetypes of things, and that's the
(30:47):
people side of what's happening.
But if you're not playing toyour point in that sandbox, you
are absolutely going to getpassed by.
It's your fiduciary.
Speaker 1 (30:56):
You're fiduciary as a leader to not allow the world
to pass us by, and one thingthat I've definitively learned
as a business owner for now 24years is I cannot allow my
personal opinions, john, toscrew up smart business
(31:17):
decisions.
And even if you think AI is theend of the world and it's the
terminator, and it's going tocome to get us, and it's going
to be in 25 years, the world'sjust going to suddenly boom, be
gone, and it's going to be thematrix.
My point to you is wouldn't yourather have a successful
business between now and then?
Certain things are outside ofyour circle of influence.
(31:38):
Certain things you can control,though, and what's under the
roof of your own business youcan absolutely control, and AI
and our willingness to embraceit and experiment with it is
definitely one of those things.
Speaker 2 (31:50):
Absolutely and again, as a man of faith, I know that
all things were created for good, but there is evil that exists
and they'll use it the wrong way.
That's right, you're exactlyright, but that doesn't preclude
us from finding out what we cando to grow ourselves.
Also, marcus, your book EndlessCustomers.
By the way, in terms ofintegrity of what you talked
(32:10):
about with regards to who it'sfor and who it isn't, you
outlined at the front of thatbook who that book is for in
terms of business sizes andthings like that.
So folks who buy the book, orat least look at it on Amazon,
they can see what that means.
The folks who are going to buythe book though I'm going to put
a link to the website You'regoing to tell me where to find
that here in a little bit aswell to buy your book.
They're going to read it andit's going to end up on a
(32:31):
bookshelf like the one behind me.
For those of you who arewatching this on YouTube, you
can see the bookshelf behind me.
When they see that binder, whenthey see the backing of your
book after they've read it, whatis it that you want them to
feel and either do or have doneafter reading your book?
Speaker 1 (32:47):
Yeah.
What I want them to say is thewhole world around me is
changing.
What's not changing, though, isthe need to build more trust.
My brand must become the mostknown and trusted voice.
My salespeople must be trusted,and I, as a leader, must be a
(33:09):
trusted voice, and I, as aleader, must be a trusted voice.
If I asked anyone that'slistening to this is trust going
to be fundamental to yourbusiness in 20 years, everyone
would say yes, but if I said isGoogle, is Facebook, is any of
these other platforms?
Are they going to befundamental?
We don't know, because, again,platforms, they come and they go
.
Trust is a principle.
(33:30):
You build strategy aroundprinciples.
The platforms do what theplatforms do, and you bring that
strategy over to each one ofthose, so what you were doing
successfully to make you bigwhen there was this thing called
Google could be very, verysuccessful during this thing
called chat, gbt or AI, whateverit is, but you must become that
(33:52):
voice of trust.
That's the payoff to the book.
That's the payoff.
Speaker 2 (33:58):
This payoff?
This one's coming out.
This podcast episode will comeout on the day your book.
We're completing this interviewa couple of weeks prior, but
it's going to come out on theday that your book releases.
Where do you want them to goand find your book and learn
more about you as well?
Speaker 1 (34:12):
First off, john, let me just say thank you for having
me on here, because you've gotjust a great energy and what I
love about you, you've actuallyresearched the book.
You get it.
You understand that it means alot to me.
So I think, just in theinteractions that you and I have
had today and previously andforgive me if I'm throwing too
(34:34):
much praise, but I think yourclients are lucky to have you
and I really really mean thatyour clients are lucky to have
you and work with you, because Ican tell how serious you are
about preparation, which is sucha big deal for any great leader
.
So thank you for that.
In terms of the book itself,you can find it at
endlesscustomerscom.
That's where you want to goendlesscustomerscom and you'll
(34:56):
see there's an amazing companionguide with it.
Endless Customers is a system,it's a map for you to follow.
So it's not a bunch ofhypotheticals, it's not theory,
it is a system, it's a map andif you follow that map, you will
become that most known andtrusted voice in your market.
Speaker 2 (35:15):
Love that and I appreciate the feedback as well.
Marcus, I know that's genuineand I do appreciate that
feedback Excellent.
I know that folks are going tofind value in this conversation
that we've had today.
Marcus certainly would findvalue in your book as well, and
I will have the website for yourbook in the show notes as well
that folks can get to reallyquickly.
Marcus, I'm going to end thisconversation.
Give me the last word.
It's the same question I askall my first-time guests as they
(35:36):
go through.
It gives you a chance to reallytalk about who you are and
where you're going.
But I'm going to give you abillboard.
You can put any message youwant to on that billboard and
place it anywhere you want to.
Speaker 1 (35:58):
What's the message you put on that billboard and
place it anywhere you want to?
What's the message you put onthat and why do you put that
message on there?
Well, this one might surpriseyou, but one of the quotes that
affected me most as someone that, since I was 19 years old, I
became obsessed withcommunication and communication
that connects communication thatis understood.
Communication and communicationthat connects Communication
that is understood.
Somebody once told me it's dumbnot to dumb it down, and I just
(36:20):
like tilted my head.
I remember I was like huh, andever since then I have realized
the great gift that we can givesomeone is to share with them
something that is so easilyunderstood that it changes their
life.
But if the goal of yourcommunication is to sound smart,
you lose that magic and thatenergy.
(36:43):
But if the goal of yourcommunication is to be
understood, now all of a suddenyou can move mountains, and so
just remember, it's dumb not todumb it down.
Speaker 2 (36:56):
Marcus love it.
I appreciate it.
I appreciate you taking thetime and investing it with the
listeners of the Uncommon LeaderPodcast.
Wish you the best in the bookcoming out and anything you're
going through in the future.
Let's see how much we cancontinue to dumb it down for
everyone and make it real clearand connect with others.
Thank you very much.
Speaker 1 (37:16):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (37:20):
And that wraps up another episode of the Uncommon
Leader Podcast.
Thanks for tuning in today.
If you found value in thisepisode, I encourage you to
share it with your friends,colleagues or anyone else who
could benefit from the insightsand inspiration we've shared.
Also, if you have a moment, I'dgreatly appreciate if you could
leave a rating and review onyour favorite podcast platform.
Your feedback not only helps usto improve, but it also helps
(37:42):
others discover the podcast andjoin our growing community of
uncommon leaders.
Until next time, go and growchampions.
As a business owner for now 24 years, I cannot allow
my personal opinions, john, toscrew up smart business
decisions.
And even if you think AI is theend of the world and it's the
Terminator, and it's going tocome to get us and it's going to
be in 25 years, the world'sjust going to suddenly boom, be
(00:21):
gone and it's going to be theMatrix.
My point to you is wouldn't yourather have a successful
business between now and then?
Speaker 2 (00:34):
Hey, Uncommon Leaders , Welcome back.
This is the Uncommon LeaderPodcast.
I'm your host, John Gallagher.
We've got a class today oncommunication and connection
from Marcus Sheridan, who's theauthor of the new Endless
Customers.
He's also the best-sellingauthor of they Ask you Answer.
But what I love about the storythat Marcus tells is some of
(00:56):
the things that he's done in hisown personal business to save
it through the examples ofleadership that he's led through
.
A speaker who is now sharingthat message across many stages
and, ultimately, a guy thathelps leaders improve their
communication and connect betterwith others.
(01:16):
In the case of his book, we'regoing to focus.
It's going to be talking aboutcustomers in that space, but I
think it flies right in the faceof leadership and how we have
to be better at connecting.
So, Marcus Sheridan, welcome tothe Uncommon Leader Podcast.
How are you doing today?
Speaker 1 (01:30):
John, it's an honor to be here, buddy, and I think
we're going to have a great,great conversation, one that the
listeners are going to be ableto truly take some stuff away
and apply, which is, to me, whatit's all about.
Speaker 2 (01:41):
I think that is what it's about.
I think they'll be able to runsomething through right off the
bat.
So let's start you off, thoughthe same time, same way I start
off all first time guests, andthat's to tell me a story from
your childhood that stillimpacts who you are as a person
or as a leader today.
Speaker 1 (01:56):
I think I was about 11 years old and uh, and I grew
up in a home that was lowermiddle class, consistently in
debt.
And one time I was outside andmy dad's white pickup truck was
(02:19):
outside the garage just sittingthere and some man pulls up to
the house and he gets out of hisvehicle Another person was
driving him gets out of hisvehicle, he gets in my dad's
truck and he drives it away andI was like what's going on?
And I saw my dad just kind oflike watched it and I was so
(02:43):
confused it's just a completelybaffled what's going on.
And so finally I'm like dad,this guy he just took your truck
you watched.
He said that was the bank.
Speaker 2 (02:54):
I said I don't understand.
Speaker 1 (02:55):
He said I I defaulted on my payments and they
repossessed the truck and hewalked away.
And it left quite an impressionon me about debt and just how
quickly, if you're not a goodsteward, things can be taken
(03:20):
from you.
And of course, it's funny howthose lessons would come back
later on in life as a businessowner and as a leader myself.
But yeah, that left quite theimpression as a young man.
Speaker 2 (03:32):
Well, you've got a lot going on right now and it
probably aligns really well withthat story of your company back
in 2008.
You were a partner in a poolcompany riding the real estate
industry I was in real estate atthe time as well down to the
bottom no pun intended in termsof the bottom of the pool in
2008.
And you had challenges to faceand choices to make if you're
(03:55):
going to keep your businessgoing.
Speaker 1 (03:57):
How did you do that.
Speaker 2 (03:58):
What did you learn and how did you do that?
Speaker 1 (03:59):
Yeah, john, we started the company in 2001.
I was right out of college.
Then you get the crash of 2008,2009, and it looked like we
were going to go out of business.
But the one great thing aboutpain and suffering is that and
I'm sure anybody that'slistening to this has felt is
that it forces us outside of ourcomfort zone and oftentimes,
(04:19):
when we're in pain, that's whenwe do the thing that we should
have been doing a long time ago.
And, unfortunately, most peopleneed that motivation of pain.
The great companies, the greatleaders, they come from that
perspective of we're in paineven when they're prosperous.
This way, they don't have to,you know, they don't have that
constant cycle of pain,prosperity, pain, prosperity,
(04:42):
and so, in our case, 2008, 2009,.
I'm like we're going to lose it.
But I really started to learnabout the buyer during that time
and studied how the buyer waschanging, how I was changing
myself, looking at things likeinbound content, marketing,
stuff like that.
But what I really heard in mysimple pool guy mind was, marcus
, if you just obsess over yourcustomers' questions, worries,
(05:02):
fears, issues, concerns, andyou're willing to address those
online, honestly, transparently,you might save your business.
And so, to make a long storyshort.
We created just a slew ofcontent, articles and videos
that went online that reallyaddressed every single question
I'd ever heard as a pool guy,and we became the most
(05:22):
trafficked swimming pool websitein the world.
As a pool guy, and we becamethe most trafficked swimming
pool website in the world, andit went so well that by 2017, we
were getting so many leads fromjust around the country that we
started manufacturing our ownpools.
And then by 2020, we became thefastest growing manufacturer of
fiberglass pools in the US.
We had the first franchise offiberglass pool companies in the
(05:45):
US and I was able to sell themanufacturing side of the
business in 2020, 2021.
I still own the original RiverPools, which is essentially a
franchisee of the biggerfranchisor, but this whole
journey was documented in mybook they Ask you Answer, along
with this framework that we used, and that framework has now
been applied to hundreds ofthousands of companies around
(06:05):
the globe, and fundamentally,it's about how to become the
most known and trusted brand inyour market.
But what's wild, john, is mostleaders don't have the audacity,
the courage, the faith and thecommon sense to follow the
principles, even though they'reso bloody obvious.
Speaker 2 (06:25):
Why don't they what gets in their way?
Speaker 1 (06:29):
Yeah.
So let's just analyze it.
And so, because of whathappened in November of 22 with
ChatGPT and AI and its impact onthe world, its impact on Google
, its impact on sales andmarketing, I said we need a
third version of they Ask, youAnswer.
And that book is called EndlessCustomers and if you're
listening, you can find it atendlesscustomerscom.
And so in this book, we havecome up with four essential
(06:53):
pillars of a known and trustedbrand.
I'll tell you each one of thefour and then we'll quickly see
why folks push back on this.
All right, and it's going to bepretty fun because it's an
exercise in buyer psychology inmany ways.
So the first one is be willingto say online what other
companies aren't willing to sayAll right.
So there's a bunch ofdirections we could go with this
(07:14):
, but let me just tell you onereally quick, and I actually
opened the book with this story.
It's so fascinating Amazingleader named Steve Sheinkopf.
He's the CEO of Yale Appliancein Boston, massachusetts.
Now Steve came to me almost adecade ago and he said Marcus,
I'm just frustrated.
We're producing this contentand stuff, but we're just not
really seeing growth when itcomes to traffic, lead sales
(07:35):
online.
I want to grow.
We're not scaling like we needto.
What's wrong?
And I looked at his stuff thathe was producing.
I said problem is the content.
You're producing, just likeevery other business out there,
but you're not really addressingwhat buyers want to know.
You're not obsessed with thebuyer.
He's like well, what do youmean?
I'm like everything they askyou have you addressed it?
Well, online?
(07:56):
He took that to heart.
He called me a few months later.
He said you know, one of thequestions I keep getting is what
are the least serviced, mostreliable appliance brands that
you sell?
Because they sell kitchenappliances.
And he said my dilemma is I'vegot all this data, marcus, that
I could openly talk about this,but if I openly talk about it,
(08:16):
I've got to throw some of thesemanufacturers, some of these
vendors, under the bus, right.
And so I said what are yougoing to do?
He said well, I guess I'm goingto focus on the group that
matters most the customer, thebuyer.
Make a long story short.
The first time he did this wasin 2017.
He's done this every year sincethen a series of articles and
videos that address the leastservice, most reliable appliance
(08:39):
brands.
Now here's what's wild about it, though, john.
What he does is he takes allthe service calls he ran from
the previous year.
He tracks every unit he soldfrom each brand as a retailer.
Every service call he ran foreach brand.
Therefore, you learn the leastserviced all the way down to the
most serviced brand that hesells.
(09:00):
He publishes it as this hugechart on his website, and you
literally see the 2025 list thatsays the least service was
Gagadon and one of the mostservice was GE.
And so it's like wow, and that'swhat makes him different,
because did the vendors getupset?
(09:20):
The ones that were rankedpoorly, yes, and what did he say
?
He said well, this is data.
That's all I'm doing is showingthe data, so maybe you should
worry more about making a betterproduct than getting frustrated
for the fact that I shared thedata of our service calls.
That's how he became thegatekeeper of that industry.
(09:41):
That article, the first year itwas written, got 50,000 reads a
month on average, 50,000readers a month for a year
straight.
Right Alone, the series hasdone millions in views and
visitors just to his website.
This is why Yale Appliance is,in many ways, a household name.
When it comes to kitchenappliances today, they are the
gatekeepers.
(10:01):
This is what's possible, butyou see how many.
What percentage of leaderslistening to this right now.
If they owned like an applianceretail shop would do something
that audacious.
Speaker 2 (10:14):
Most would not.
Great question, I mean.
I'm thinking.
The thing that comes to my mindis well, I got consumer reports
to do that for me.
Well, don't let anybody else dothat for me.
Speaker 1 (10:22):
To your point you, would you ever leave?
Speaker 2 (10:24):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (10:26):
Why would you allow?
someone else to dictate yoursuccess, the success of your
company or even theconversations that are having
within your space.
My obsession is if anybody'sthinking it about the product or
service that I sell.
I, as a leader, want to makesure that my brand, my company,
is a part of that conversation.
(10:46):
So Steve Sheinkopf was willingto say what other CEOs and
leaders in his space weren'twilling to say, and see the
whole problem.
You know it's wild, john.
I've been speaking aboutdisruptive, audacious sales and
marketing practices for thebetter part of 12, 13 years.
During this period of time, thenumber one email I've gotten
(11:07):
isn't from business owners andleaders saying hey, marcus, we
want to grow like Steve.
That's the number two type ofemail that I get.
The number one type of emailI've gotten from marketers
Marketers saying you know,marcus, I get it, but the
problem is leadership doesn't.
They won't allow me to do someof these things that I know
would generate massive success.
Bad, very bad.
Speaker 2 (11:30):
So that's who you wrote it for, right.
I mean, you wrote it for thedisruptor ultimately.
You had a disruptor in mindwhen you wrote it.
Speaker 1 (11:36):
Yeah, for the ones that are willing to be the
digital David in a land ofGoliaths, that want to make
their own rules and not play bythe rules they've been given,
because ultimately we see thisover the history of the world
the rule breakers always end upbecoming the rule makers.
And the previous leaders becomethe rule followers because they
were afraid to replace theirown business models Pretty much
(11:57):
similar to what Google's doingright now.
Right, google's going to betaken over over the course of
the next five to 10 years unlessthey do a dramatic U-turn in
their current approach.
They want to continue to feedtheir revenue stream with paid
ads, and so the user experienceright now for Google search
isn't nearly as good as it isfor some of these AI platforms.
(12:17):
A lot of people are stilllearning about them, so they
don't necessarily know that, butunless Google changes, they
will be replaced by a better UXfor the market, and you see,
this is what we see over andover again with that pride
prosperity cycle that we weretalking about earlier.
Speaker 2 (12:36):
Hey listeners, I want to take a quick moment to share
something special with you.
Many of the topics anddiscussions we have on this
podcast are areas where Iprovide coaching and consulting
services for individuals andorganizations.
If you've been inspired by ourconversation and are seeking a
catalyst for change in your ownlife or within your team, and
are seeking a catalyst forchange in your own life or
within your team, I invite youto visit coachjohngallaghercom
(12:59):
forward slash free call to signup for a free coaching call with
me.
It's an opportunity for us toconnect, discuss your unique
challenges and explore howcoaching or consulting can
benefit you and your team.
Okay, let's get back to theshow.
Absolutely.
Let's just go there right now,because I saw that at the end of
(13:20):
your book, in terms of one ofthose barriers is the pride
cycle.
So you've said that a coupletimes.
Tell me about the pride cycleand what exists in that, because
you say pain, prosperity, butthere's other pieces of that.
Speaker 1 (13:30):
Yeah, it's quite fascinating because when you
understand how the pride cycleworks, you see it in every facet
of your life, and not just yourlife, business, personal.
You see it in the history ofthe world.
I mean entire countries andcultures and civilizations rise
and fall with this thing calledthe pride cycle.
So essentially how it works isimagine a circle and at the
(13:52):
bottom of the circle you havepain.
And this circle is essentiallya journey that we're going on.
And because you're in pain andlet's just be hypothetical,
let's do a really simple one ona personal level.
You're overweight, you'reunhealthy and you're like man,
I've just let myself go.
Now, because you're in pain,you say I got to make changes
enough.
(14:12):
So you have disgust, I'm goingto make changes, I am going to
get uncomfortable because I'mmore frustrated with this
current pain than the pain ofchange.
And so we start to do the littlethings.
Maybe we cut out the sweets,maybe we start to go to the gym
or get the exercise or get onthe treadmill, but we start to
(14:33):
do the little things.
And because we start to do thelittle things, we start to get
results.
Because we start to get results, we start to experience
momentum.
And now we're coming up thatleft side of the circle and by
doing the little things we startto finally get to the top of
the circle, which is pleasure.
Pleasure means man, I did it, Ilost the 20 pounds I am so proud
(14:54):
of myself.
Yeah, look at me.
But something happens when weget to that place of pleasure
Very human we get comfortableand we say you know what, maybe
I can cheat a little bit today,maybe I can just, you know, have
that extra serving, maybe Idon't need to go to the gym
today.
So we stop doing the littlethings that got us to that place
and because we stopped doingthe little things, we don't need
(15:14):
to go to the gym today.
So we stopped doing the littlethings that got us to that place
.
And because we stopped doingthe little things, we don't even
realize that at first we startto slide down the right side of
the circle.
And so you can imagine.
The right side is stop doingthe little things In business.
It's stop innovating, stoppushing, stop disrupting.
Get fat, get happy, getcomfortable, become Kodak,
become Blackberry, right, andjust don't change.
(15:37):
And because of that, all of asudden we're back to where we
started, and that's the circle.
This is why you see economiesrise and economies falls.
They come into debt and thenthey, you know, quit the
spending like or you know, youunderstand what I'm saying.
It's like there's like thiscycle that you see with
economies.
You see this cycle, you know,with governments and with
(15:58):
politics, certainly withrelationships.
My goodness, I mean the personthat's like I'm going on date
night every Friday because youknow we're seeing a therapist, a
counselor, and I'm going to dothe little things.
It's like, oh, you know,relationship is good, but you
stopped doing the date night.
And you know relationship isgood, but you stopped doing the
date night.
And you know you stopped doingyou know like five love
languages or whatever it is.
And then suddenly you're likeoh, we're having problems again.
Speaker 2 (16:24):
We don't know what happened.
Pride cycle, love that and Ithink about that.
You know, the I've often usedin my coaching said people will
change when the displeasure ofremaining the same use the
wordust, is greater than thediscomfort of the change itself,
because it's going to betraining new muscles one way or
the other.
If you stay with fitness, getyourself in good shape, but you
stop doing those little things,next time you get back in the
(16:45):
program it's going to hurt again.
Speaker 1 (16:46):
It's just going to hurt.
It's like I don't want the pain.
It's which pain would youprefer to choose?
That's right.
Right, I'm either going to geton the treadmill and experience
the pain of that, or I'm goingto experience the pain of
looking down and not being ableto see my feet.
Like it's the same.
Principally speaking, it's thesame.
(17:08):
So, yeah, and it's amazing tome how, when I've looked at my
life and I look at the ups anddowns, usually it's almost
always because somehow the pridecycle had crept in.
Speaker 2 (17:24):
It's so real.
When I read it I just smiled.
I'm like this is exactly whatwe go through.
You start doing a littleresearch on it.
It's crazy how much research isavailable.
It seems like to your point, inreligion, in our spiritual
journey as well.
It's part of that too.
I mean, it's very much a partof what you find.
And so you get to the, let'ssay, we're at the top of that
(17:45):
cycle and we're at thatprosperity point.
What's the way in which youencourage organizations in which
you stay at that point and notgo back off of it?
What's the way in which youencourage organizations in which
you stay at that point and notgo back off of it?
What's the way to stay there?
Speaker 1 (17:58):
I think that's great.
And that just goes back to thatconstant self-audit, right?
So if you look, for example, atendless customers, there's
these four pillars, and thesefour pillars are meant to be an
audit that leadership teams canjust literally sit around the
boardroom table and say can wehonestly say we're doing this?
(18:18):
So what are the four pillars?
Number one are we saying onlinewhat others aren't saying?
Are we talking about the thingsthat others aren't talking
about?
One of the biggest examplesfrom the book is discussing cost
and price.
Now this comes from.
They Ask you answer.
It comes now into endlesscustomers.
I've got more data probablythan anybody in the world no,
(18:41):
not probably I do On the powerof discussing cost and price,
not giving exact prices, butteaching what goes into cost and
price and helping understand aprospect, understand value and,
roughly, what is this thinggoing to cost.
There is so much power in that,and so most companies refuse to
(19:01):
talk about that because they sayI want to wait so we can
control the conversation.
As a buyer, you don't want tobe controlled and so this is
very, very frustrating to you asa buyer.
So, number one say what othersaren't willing to say.
Number two show with video whatothers aren't willing to show
online.
So I would ask you, as we dothis audit, what are you saying
right now online that no oneelse in your space is saying?
(19:23):
Like Steve Sheinkop with thelist of appliance brands, right,
like all the companies thatwere willing to talk about cost
and price, even though 95% ofall industries, in terms of
companies, still don't talkabout cost and price at all,
especially most B2Bservice-based businesses.
I mean, don't even get mestarted there.
(19:45):
So, third pillar, my secondpillar was show what others
aren't willing to show withvideo.
What are you showing right nowthat others in your space aren't
willing to show with video?
Super fast example of that whenwe started manufacturing pools,
we were the first majormanufacturer to create an entire
series eight videos, 10 minuteslong each, that showed
(20:06):
everything about ourmanufacturing process.
If you wanted to startmanufacturing pools, john, you
could watch these videos and itwould be like a course on
getting started.
And my competitors, literallythey called us up and they said
why in the world are you showingthis proprietary information?
I'm like you think it'sproprietary, give me a break.
But the problem is that's thelie they're telling themselves.
So what are you showing, from avideo perspective, that none of
(20:29):
your competitors are willing toshow, or at least 95% of them?
Number three are you selling ina way that others aren't
willing to show, or at least 95%of them?
Number three are you selling ina way that others aren't
willing to sell.
Now this one, and I've got somepowerful examples in the book,
but the most obvious example areself-service tools.
Self-service tools areinteractive tools that generally
you put on a website that allowsomeone to get answers that
(20:50):
previously they would havegotten by talking to a human,
but they now get them by havingthis interactive experience.
So, for example, you could bethe with River Pools.
We were the first fiberglasspool manufacturer.
Now, keep in mind, we havedealers that set the in price.
Okay, we were the firstfiberglass pool manufacturer in
the world that had a pricingestimator on our website, and so
(21:12):
somebody could come on thereand, by answering a series of
questions about what size you'reinterested in, what shape
you're interested in, here'ssome options.
What options do you thinkyou're interested in?
Just like they would have ifthey were talking to a
salesperson.
So this estimator tool, thiscalculator I call it an
estimator tool, this estimatortool it allows them to make
choices.
(21:32):
It also allows them toself-educate as they go through
the estimator and then, by theend, it gives them a range as to
what they would spend.
Now here's what's amazing aboutthis I actually have a software
company that builds thesepricing estimators, that allows
companies, service-basedbusinesses, to build pricing
estimators and put them on thehomepage of their website.
(21:54):
And we've got so much data onthis now that we know that if
somebody puts a pricingestimator on their homepage that
says get instant estimate, okay, that's the call to action get
instant estimate.
Generally there's a three to500% increase in leads from the
day they do it.
So this is especially powerfulfor anybody that's in home
(22:14):
improvement, home services, butany type of service-based
business.
The number one question thatpeople have when they start the
buyer's journey, like the momentthey know they have a problem,
a need and they got to buysomething or acquire some type
of service or product the firstquestion is, roughly, roughly,
how much is this going to cost?
So when you have an estimator,it addresses that, and now, once
(22:35):
they get it addressed, they'relike, wow, I trust this company
so much.
That was really helpful.
But also it allows them now tocontinue with their buyer's
journey to the point where theyeventually reach out.
Most companies ignore thisbecause they're not following
the golden rule.
They're not treating thesecustomers, these visitors, as
they themselves would want to be, because they're afraid and
they're coming from thisscarcity mindset when, in
(22:57):
reality, if you come from thisabundance mindset, suddenly you
can generate more trust, moreleads than you've ever done.
So, like I said, that's all fora company I started called Price
Guide.
It's amazing the results thatwe're seeing.
Three to 500% is the increase,and so, if you're listening to
this right now, that's the typeof thing that you want to be
offering, and in the bookEndless Customers, I give you
(23:18):
five different types ofself-service tools, all game
changers, all applicable to mostbusinesses, and that's very,
very powerful.
Most companies say they selldifferently, john.
They don't, they don't.
And then, finally, the fourthone is be more human than others
are willing to be.
And then, finally, the fourthone is be more human than others
are willing to be.
What I mean by that is, as acompany, is there a face that is
(23:39):
associated with our brand?
If I say, colonel Sanders, youthink KFC?
Now somebody might hear thatand say, well, we're not KFC,
yeah.
But if somebody, I've gotmultiple companies that I own
today.
Right, I own a company calledImpact.
I own a company called PriceGuide I just mentioned it.
I own another communicationcompany, I own River Pools.
(24:02):
Now, what is more popular online?
My face and my brand or thesecompanies?
Far and away, it's my face, mybrand, right.
So I am a key person ofinfluence, as Daniel Priestley
would say, and because I'vebuilt my personal brand and I've
humanized me, people trust me.
And then I say, hey, I've gotthis thing, I've got this
(24:24):
company, I've got this software,I've got this pool company or
whatever the thing is, and nowthat generates the trust for
those businesses to take offvery quickly, right, and so
there is a very human element toany brand that I'm associated
with because of the human brandthat is behind it.
And so the audit that you haveto give to yourself as a leader
(24:45):
is what are we saying thatnobody else is saying?
What are we showing that no oneelse is showing?
How are we selling in a waythat no one else is selling and
how are we being more human thananyone else in our space?
That's the audit more human.
(25:11):
It was frowned upon for us tohave our face out as the
representative.
Speaker 2 (25:13):
People buy from people.
They're not buying from thatlogo and it used to absolutely
drive me crazy.
It was so hard to deal with.
I love that and the term youused in your book what sounds
like what you just defined wasthat trust deficit.
Ultimately, how wide that gapis is going to determine your
ability to grow.
There's no doubt about it.
Inside of that space.
Speaker 1 (25:33):
And never has there been an industry To your point,
john never has the trust deficitbeen so great.
Right, it's people.
People just don't know who totrust anymore.
They don't trust brands, theydon't trust politicians, they
don't trust you know the person,their neighbor.
It's like anything that you cando as a business and as a
leader to signal we're not likeeverybody else.
(25:55):
I mean, one of the simplestexamples I talk about is every
business on their website andjust on their just general like
messaging should explicitlystate who they're not a good fit
for.
But I bet you, if we had 100people listening to us through
this right now, at least 99 havenot said explicitly online this
(26:15):
is who we're not a good fit for.
But the moment you're willingto say what you're not is the
moment you become dramaticallymore attractive to those who you
are a good fit for.
Speaker 2 (26:25):
Can't be everything to everyone.
And again back to that trustdeficit.
Okay, that makes sense, and,frankly, I'll lead you to
someone who might be able tohelp you.
That's because I probably knowsomebody in that space.
That's the idea, um, and Iapologize, there's a book that I
read, uh, two years ago, thattalked about that with regards
to, hey, be a referrer to otherswho are with you.
(26:45):
That's competition, that'scompletion, um, and it's the
circle of life, it's good karma,it's good energy.
Speaker 1 (26:52):
It all comes back anyway Again to me.
Again, that goes back toabundance mentality versus
scarcity mentality.
There's a lot of businessowners, a lot of leaders out
there that come from a scarcitymindset, which I know you have
to help them overcome.
That's one of the big thingsthat you've got to snap them out
of, john, because otherwiseit's going to hold them back big
time for reaching theirpotential.
I never could have doneextraordinary things with River
(27:14):
Pools and become the mosttraffic-swingable website in the
world and then had this crazycareer as a speaker.
If I had said you know what?
Nobody's ever said that before,so I should probably not be
talking about that online.
Speaker 2 (27:29):
Within endless customers.
Another list that you talkedabout, if you will, were the
five components of an endlesscustomer right Content right
Website right Sales activities,right Technology, right Culture.
I mean, I'm I'm certainly awhether you save culture for
last intentionally, but again,is it another assessment tool
that you use inside withorganizations to say how do you
(27:50):
donate each one of these spaces?
Speaker 1 (27:52):
Yeah, so my company Impact helps organizations
become like a true light forthose five things and then hold
themselves accountable to it.
It's like this culture ofperformance when it comes to
endless customers.
This is one of those thingswhere so much and you've seen
(28:14):
this before so much of whatbusinesses do is a program.
It's not cultural, it's aprogram.
Hey, we're going to roll outthis new program and the program
it comes, it goes, it diesbecause it's meant to be finite.
It comes, it goes, it diesbecause it's meant to be finite.
(28:34):
Whereas you have to create aculture of performance, the
great Jim Rohn who I know youappreciate, john, and I adore as
my greatest mentor, I thinksaid you've got to learn to work
harder on yourself than you doon your job, and that never
stops.
That never goes away.
To have more than you got, yougot to become more than you are,
and are we instilling thatwithin our organizations?
Right, and so it's like thisculture of performance is really
(28:56):
a big one today, because, withAI, every one of your employees
right now should be in the AIsandbox looking for ways to
become faster and more effective.
And are you requiring them todo that, or are you just saying,
you know, it'd be really greatif you could, you know, maybe
take a look at AI and see if itcan help you.
(29:17):
Or are you saying I don't wantanybody here using AI unless
this or that?
Right, it's like what?
Because I can assure you thisthe amount of leaders that are
going to be stunned and shockedat what their competitors are
able to be stunned and shockedat what their competitors are
able to pull off and how AI willrevolutionize business models
in their totality in the next 12to 18 months is just going to
(29:39):
be like I said, it's just goingto be absurdly shocking to so
many people.
We're going to constantly lookaround the marketplace and say,
how can they do that, how canthey offer that, how can they
pull that off, how can they dothat much work or how can they
offer it at that price, whateverthe thing is, because they have
somehow become dramaticallymore efficient.
And there's pretty much one keyto that today is understanding
(30:02):
AI and what's possible, and noneof us truly understand it,
because we can't fathom wherethis is all going to be, but
those that are using it, theyfeel superhuman, and that's how
you and your team should feel,and when we say, you know,
having like creating thisculture of performance, that is
(30:24):
a big part of it moving forward.
Speaker 2 (30:27):
I love that.
I mean you touched on that interms of technologies as well,
and if you're going to be adisruptor, I mean too many
organizations sit on this sideof fear of AI and they say stay
away from it.
To go all the way on the otherside and be totally free with it
is not what you want as well,because you've got to maintain
your authenticity and thosetypes of things, and that's the
(30:47):
people side of what's happening.
But if you're not playing toyour point in that sandbox, you
are absolutely going to getpassed by.
It's your fiduciary.
Speaker 1 (30:56):
You're fiduciary as a leader to not allow the world
to pass us by, and one thingthat I've definitively learned
as a business owner for now 24years is I cannot allow my
personal opinions, john, toscrew up smart business
(31:17):
decisions.
And even if you think AI is theend of the world and it's the
terminator, and it's going tocome to get us, and it's going
to be in 25 years, the world'sjust going to suddenly boom, be
gone, and it's going to be thematrix.
My point to you is wouldn't yourather have a successful
business between now and then?
Certain things are outside ofyour circle of influence.
(31:38):
Certain things you can control,though, and what's under the
roof of your own business youcan absolutely control, and AI
and our willingness to embraceit and experiment with it is
definitely one of those things.
Speaker 2 (31:50):
Absolutely and again, as a man of faith, I know that
all things were created for good, but there is evil that exists
and they'll use it the wrong way.
That's right, you're exactlyright, but that doesn't preclude
us from finding out what we cando to grow ourselves.
Also, marcus, your book EndlessCustomers.
By the way, in terms ofintegrity of what you talked
(32:10):
about with regards to who it'sfor and who it isn't, you
outlined at the front of thatbook who that book is for in
terms of business sizes andthings like that.
So folks who buy the book, orat least look at it on Amazon,
they can see what that means.
The folks who are going to buythe book though I'm going to put
a link to the website You'regoing to tell me where to find
that here in a little bit aswell to buy your book.
They're going to read it andit's going to end up on a
(32:31):
bookshelf like the one behind me.
For those of you who arewatching this on YouTube, you
can see the bookshelf behind me.
When they see that binder, whenthey see the backing of your
book after they've read it, whatis it that you want them to
feel and either do or have doneafter reading your book?
Speaker 1 (32:47):
Yeah.
What I want them to say is thewhole world around me is
changing.
What's not changing, though, isthe need to build more trust.
My brand must become the mostknown and trusted voice.
My salespeople must be trusted,and I, as a leader, must be a
(33:09):
trusted voice, and I, as aleader, must be a trusted voice.
If I asked anyone that'slistening to this is trust going
to be fundamental to yourbusiness in 20 years, everyone
would say yes, but if I said isGoogle, is Facebook, is any of
these other platforms?
Are they going to befundamental?
We don't know, because, again,platforms, they come and they go
.
Trust is a principle.
(33:30):
You build strategy aroundprinciples.
The platforms do what theplatforms do, and you bring that
strategy over to each one ofthose, so what you were doing
successfully to make you bigwhen there was this thing called
Google could be very, verysuccessful during this thing
called chat, gbt or AI, whateverit is, but you must become that
(33:52):
voice of trust.
That's the payoff to the book.
That's the payoff.
Speaker 2 (33:58):
This payoff?
This one's coming out.
This podcast episode will comeout on the day your book.
We're completing this interviewa couple of weeks prior, but
it's going to come out on theday that your book releases.
Where do you want them to goand find your book and learn
more about you as well?
Speaker 1 (34:12):
First off, john, let me just say thank you for having
me on here, because you've gotjust a great energy and what I
love about you, you've actuallyresearched the book.
You get it.
You understand that it means alot to me.
So I think, just in theinteractions that you and I have
had today and previously andforgive me if I'm throwing too
(34:34):
much praise, but I think yourclients are lucky to have you
and I really really mean thatyour clients are lucky to have
you and work with you, because Ican tell how serious you are
about preparation, which is sucha big deal for any great leader
.
So thank you for that.
In terms of the book itself,you can find it at
endlesscustomerscom.
That's where you want to goendlesscustomerscom and you'll
(34:56):
see there's an amazing companionguide with it.
Endless Customers is a system,it's a map for you to follow.
So it's not a bunch ofhypotheticals, it's not theory,
it is a system, it's a map andif you follow that map, you will
become that most known andtrusted voice in your market.
Speaker 2 (35:15):
Love that and I appreciate the feedback as well.
Marcus, I know that's genuineand I do appreciate that
feedback Excellent.
I know that folks are going tofind value in this conversation
that we've had today.
Marcus certainly would findvalue in your book as well, and
I will have the website for yourbook in the show notes as well
that folks can get to reallyquickly.
Marcus, I'm going to end thisconversation.
Give me the last word.
It's the same question I askall my first-time guests as they
(35:36):
go through.
It gives you a chance to reallytalk about who you are and
where you're going.
But I'm going to give you abillboard.
You can put any message youwant to on that billboard and
place it anywhere you want to.
Speaker 1 (35:58):
What's the message you put on that billboard and
place it anywhere you want to?
What's the message you put onthat and why do you put that
message on there?
Well, this one might surpriseyou, but one of the quotes that
affected me most as someone that, since I was 19 years old, I
became obsessed withcommunication and communication
that connects communication thatis understood.
Communication and communicationthat connects Communication
that is understood.
Somebody once told me it's dumbnot to dumb it down, and I just
(36:20):
like tilted my head.
I remember I was like huh, andever since then I have realized
the great gift that we can givesomeone is to share with them
something that is so easilyunderstood that it changes their
life.
But if the goal of yourcommunication is to sound smart,
you lose that magic and thatenergy.
(36:43):
But if the goal of yourcommunication is to be
understood, now all of a suddenyou can move mountains, and so
just remember, it's dumb not todumb it down.
Speaker 2 (36:56):
Marcus love it.
I appreciate it.
I appreciate you taking thetime and investing it with the
listeners of the Uncommon LeaderPodcast.
Wish you the best in the bookcoming out and anything you're
going through in the future.
Let's see how much we cancontinue to dumb it down for
everyone and make it real clearand connect with others.
Thank you very much.
Speaker 1 (37:16):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (37:20):
And that wraps up another episode of the Uncommon
Leader Podcast.
Thanks for tuning in today.
If you found value in thisepisode, I encourage you to
share it with your friends,colleagues or anyone else who
could benefit from the insightsand inspiration we've shared.
Also, if you have a moment, I'dgreatly appreciate if you could
leave a rating and review onyour favorite podcast platform.
Your feedback not only helps usto improve, but it also helps
(37:42):
others discover the podcast andjoin our growing community of
uncommon leaders.
Until next time, go and growchampions.
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