May 28, 2024 • 61 mins
In episode #59 host Brett Stanley chats with Australian director Nays Baghai about his career in underwater filmmaking.
They talk about his new documentary Diving in to the Darkness, and what it was like to bring the life of renowned Cave Diver Jill Heinerth to the big screen - and the many challenges that came along with it.
Nays talks in detail about the creation of the film, what influences him as a film maker, and how he got his start in underwater way back in film school.
Watch the film during a special screening presented by Scuba Diver Magazine.
Follow this guest: Instagram, Website
Description
What drives an underwater filmmaker to risk it all for the perfect shot? This week, we sit down with Australian director Nase Baghai, whose passion for marine biology and storytelling has led him to the depths of perilous underwater caves. Nase shares his remarkable transition from a Sydney film student to a groundbreaking documentary filmmaker, shedding light on his latest project, "Diving Into the Darkness," which chronicles the adventurous life of esteemed cave diver Jill Heinerth. Nase reveals how he combines traditional filmmaking with the unique challenges of underwater cinematography to create compelling, authentic documentaries.
Journey with us as we uncover the intricate creative process behind adapting Jill Heinerth's thrilling story from book to screen, featuring a non-linear narrative inspired by masterpieces like "Godfather 2." Nase recounts the serendipitous meeting with Jill at a dive conference that sparked their collaboration, and elaborates on the mutual respect that has fueled their partnership. We also touch on Nase's personal challenges, including his journey to become cave-certified, which allowed him to direct in the high-risk environments where the documentary was filmed. This conversation highlights the dedication and resilience required to bring such powerful real-life stories to the screen.
In our final segments, Nase delves into the complexities of capturing cave diving expeditions on film, emphasizing the critical role of teamwork and meticulous preparation. From assembling a talented crew to mastering underwater communication, Nase shares the logistical hurdles and innovative solutions that make these shoots possible. We also explore his preference for working with a small, agile team, influenced by his documentary background. Hear about his pioneering use of animation to recreate past decades in his films and get a glimpse of his excitement for future projects. This episode is a treasure trove of insights for anyone passionate about the intersection of filmmaking and underwater exploration.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Brett Stanley (00:08):
Welcome to the Underwater Podcast, where we
take a deep dive into the worldof underwater portrait
photography, cinematography andeverything in between with your
host, brett Stanley Stanley.
Welcome back to the UnderwaterPodcast, and this week I'm
(00:34):
chatting with Australiandirector Nase Baghai about his
career in underwater filmmaking.
We talk about his newdocumentary, diving Into the
Darkness and what it's like tobring the life of renowned cave
diver Jill Hinearth to the bigscreen and the many challenges
that came along with it.
Nays talks in detail about thecreation of the film, what
influences him as a filmmakerand how he got his start
underwater way back in filmschool.
(00:55):
Okay, let's dive in, nays.
Welcome to the UnderwaterPodcast.
Thanks for having me, brett.
Oh, it's a pleasure.
Man, we've known of each othersince I started the podcast.
You reached out pretty early onand it was such an awesome way
to connect was through thepodcast, so seeing you go from
(01:16):
there and then from strength tostrength with your new
documentary has just beenamazing to see that come about.
Nays Baghai (01:22):
Thanks so much, brett.
I mean I've been a fan of yourpodcast since its inception.
I mean to be on.
It is a real privilege andhonor and also it's cool meeting
another Aussie in theunderwater film industry around
the world.
So always a pleasure to meetanother country man.
Brett Stanley (01:37):
No, no, totally.
Because I live in the Statesand it's so very, you know,
us-centric that when I speak toan Australian I get very
nostalgic.
So there will be parts whereI'm kind of getting a little
misty eyed maybe I think Cool,man.
So you have been working.
Most recently you're probablyyour two most biggest kind of
productions have been twodocumentaries on underwater.
How did you get into theunderwater world?
(01:59):
What was your entry into it?
Nays Baghai (02:01):
Oh, that's a long story that goes back gosh,
nearly 20 years from now.
So it really started when I wasa kid and, like most guys who
do what I do, I was a hugemarine biology nerd as a kid.
So I would come home fromschool with a backpack filled
with shark and whaleencyclopedias, and my
(02:23):
grandparents, who were visitingfrom Canada at the time, noticed
what I was up to.
So the next time they paid avisit they gave me the four-disc
special edition of the originalBlue Planet and I watched it
and was immediately spellboundby that show, not only because
(02:46):
of the marine biology storiesthat were being told in the
episodes, but also, and perhapsmore, by the making of
documentary that chronicled whatthe cameramen and producers
were getting up to.
And there was one image I thinkit was Mike Degree in Cocos
Island with his rebreather andbig film like film camera
(03:08):
housing filming hammerheadsharks, and I was like that is
what I want to do when I'm anadult.
So the only problem was I wastoo young to do a patty open
water course at the time, so Ihad to wait until I could do
that, and then I took a reallylong detour through the
filmmaking path as a result ofthat and that ended up eclipsing
(03:31):
my passion for marine biologyin the end, until during my
first year at film school, wherea classmate told me that she
was shooting an underwater scenefor her first year film and I
immediately put my hand upsaying I want to shoot that.
And bear in mind this is in themiddle of Sydney winter, with
pretty tall waves and cold water.
(03:51):
So it wasn't.
And also, I had a GoPro Hero 3as my camera.
So it wasn't the mostauspicious gig that you could
dream up, but it was.
I felt like a pig in the mudwhen I was filming that and as
soon as my camera, like you know, as soon as my finger began
(04:12):
clicking the shutter of thecamera, it was a light bulb
moment at that point and afterthat it was just a matter okay,
how do I learn how to do thisprofessionally and sensibly?
And yeah, I then decided to.
You know, merge what I waslearning at film school about
the craft of filmmaking withdiving and, you know, filming
(04:34):
underwater.
And yeah, here we are.
Brett Stanley (04:37):
Yeah it's.
I mean, it's such a common kindof path, I think, for people
getting down to water.
I think I know so many people,especially guys, who when they
were kids they wanted to be amarine biologist.
Nays Baghai (04:47):
I wanted to be a marine biologist yeah, I mean,
there's always that itch tolearn more and recently, even
though I'm not a a big socialmedia fan, I try to make my post
educational, include factsabout the sharks and other like
animals that I'll find to kindof give it like an educational
(05:09):
spin on it and really tap intothat, cause it's such a, from a
cerebral perspective, a reallyfascinating world to tap into,
for me at least.
Brett Stanley (05:19):
Oh, no, totally.
And then so is that why youended up sort of going more into
the documentary world asopposed to, like the narrative
feature film sort of work?
Nays Baghai (05:28):
Well, to be honest with you, I actually started off
in narrative rather thandocumentary and to this day I
don't really see myself as adocumentary filmmaker.
I see myself as a you know adirector who happens to do
documentaries.
And that just it just kind oforganically became the genre
(05:50):
that I wanted to tell, simplybecause the best stories were
the real ones.
And part of the advantage ofgoing to film school meant that
I was exposed to all theseamazing, different you know
narrative stories from you knowFederico Fellini's Eight and a
Half to Lawrence of Arabia orwhatever, and that just kind of
(06:14):
really inspired me to draw moreinspiration from you know
fictional stories and films andkind of not really treat my work
as a documentary.
But more like, for me there wasno reason that I couldn't draw
from the vocabulary of, like aScorsese film or a Spielberg
(06:36):
film for a documentary.
So it was really it was seen asheresy at the time by some
professors but for me, me I kindof got off a bit of the
mischief that came from blendingall those genres into the
documentary space and but yeah,it just for me, like there it
(06:57):
was that the best stories that Iwas attracted to happened to be
real people, and if it meantknow going down the documentary
path to tell their stories, thenso be it.
Brett Stanley (07:09):
Oh no, totally, I mean.
That's the thing is.
I mean, the difference reallybetween a narrative feature and
a documentary is really that onejust had a script written and
one has a script that's evolvingas it's happening, I guess.
Nays Baghai (07:21):
Yeah, absolutely, and it's really fun to you know,
write something that can bereally detailed and, if not,
prescriptive, but then when yourock up to the day, you have to,
you know, throw that out,because that's what happens when
you're not only shooting adocumentary but also shooting
underwater and just think, okay,what are the core elements that
(07:44):
we can't change and what arethe things that are more
flexible and malleable that wecan play around with but still
stay true to the story?
Brett Stanley (07:53):
Yeah, so that's kind of so.
It's interesting with the twomain projects that you've done
recently, which is Descent,which is, you know, the story of
Kiki Bosch, the cold water freediver, yeah.
And then you've got the cavediver, jill Hynurth, who had
already written a book about herlife.
What was it like going from saysomething like Descent, where
(08:14):
you possibly had to find thestory in there, to Jill, where
the story was possibly alreadythere?
Nays Baghai (08:21):
That's a great question Really.
I actually personally I lovedboth of them for different
reasons, like, but if I had to,how do I say this?
If with Jill's story, it wasactually a really fun and
pleasantly challenging hurdle totackle, because, first of all,
(08:44):
jill's an amazing legend in ourcommunity and I kept having that
voice in the back of my headlike, do not screw this up, do
justice to the story.
So there was that pressure.
But secondly, when I read thebook, it was just such a
compelling story that I feltlike that.
A lot of it was already there onpaper, but the real challenge
(09:07):
was thinking how I could use themedium of film in a way that
wasn't as a slavish anadaptation could be.
In other words, how could I takethe best parts of the book but
use the format of a 90 minutefilm to tell the story in a way
(09:28):
that worked in a differently tothe way of the book?
And the way that we did that waswe decided to do it in a
non-linear way, and this reallycame about during the editing
process in particular, as wellas the preliminary writing
process, because while tellingit chronologically worked for
(09:49):
the book, it didn't work for theedit because we were showing
our hand too early and revealingstuff.
That worked better in thenon-linear format and I really
drew a lot of inspiration fromGodfather 2 in, you know, trying
to rearrange these sequences ina way where it felt natural but
(10:14):
kept the audience on their toesand also just really made use
of flashbacks in a way where itfelt like you were getting to
know Jill on film as you wouldget to know her in person.
So, and because Jill's such areally collaborative and, you
know, flexible person, havingher as a guide, saying when I
(10:39):
would ask her about, you know,factual or historical questions,
she was really helpful andimaginative and really
respectful for lack of a betterterm and to this day I haven't
had a better workingrelationship with another writer
(10:59):
, let alone a documentarysubject, as her.
Brett Stanley (11:02):
Oh no, totally.
I mean, it kind of comes acrossin the film.
You know, jill is such a goodstoryteller in her own right
yeah, she's such a good speakerthat it felt very cohesive, like
it felt very intimate as well.
Nays Baghai (11:18):
Yeah, I mean that was one of the things that made
filming really easy was becauseshe had been on the other side
of the camera before.
That meant that she really knewhow to, you know, get the kinds
of responses that I was lookingfor.
But even like when you'replanning shoots, I mean she's
the OG, or at least one of theOGs, when it comes to, you know,
(11:42):
filming in caves.
So having her as like a what'sthe term?
A conciliary for how to set upa cave diving shoot, and to do
it creatively too, was a massivehelp for that.
Brett Stanley (11:58):
Oh no, totally.
I mean, you've got yeah, you'vegot her whole, you know, life's
worth of work, which is doingpretty much what you were doing
with her in front of the camera.
So you've got this resource,which must've been amazing to
have, and she would have knownthe locations you were going to
and you know.
So you've kind of I don't know,like you, you got lucky with
having so much knowledge withyour subject.
Nays Baghai (12:19):
Oh yeah, that's definitely an understatement,
like I myself, for how fortunateit was to work with her
throughout the entire two yearsit took to bring that film to
life.
Brett Stanley (12:35):
So how did it come to life?
Was this something that youpitched to her, or how did that
relationship start, start?
Nays Baghai (12:40):
Well, jill and I met at AUSTEC, which is the
largest dive conference inAustralia, about, I think, seven
years ago, and I went up to herI was about 19 at the time and
was just trying to make friendsin the dive industry and we
pretty much hit it off off thebat and I kept in contact with
(13:01):
her over the years, not knowingwhether or not a project to work
with her would ever come tofruition.
But by the time the pandemicended I really wanted a project
that would challenge me andenable me to travel and grow as
a storyteller.
And I had read herautobiography, of course, when
(13:23):
it came out, but slowly as timepassed, no one really like no
one really went with the story,or at least announced they were
going with that book.
So eventually I thought, if noone else is going to do it, then
I will.
Brett Stanley (13:37):
So I called her up on New Year's Day, 2022.
Nays Baghai (13:41):
And I said how would you like to bring Into the
Planet, onto the big screen?
And her answer was pretty muchan immediate yes, and I think
the reason for that was becausewe knew each other well enough
that she kind of knew thedirection I wanted to go and was
not the sensationalist liketypical Hollywood approach that
(14:06):
they do it and that I was goingto prioritize fidelity to the
source material above all else.
So really, about six monthsafter I called her, we were in
Ottawa filming her masterinterview that would kick off
the scenes that we would filmlater throughout the year and,
(14:29):
yeah, it really happened veryorganically.
It was a lot of work toorganize the shoots, but I
wouldn't trade it for anything.
Brett Stanley (14:39):
Oh no, I mean, the experience of that must have
been incredible, not just, youknow, working with Jill, but
also I mean I guess you had toget cave certified, unless you
already were.
You had to go to theselocations and you know, you seem
like someone who likes a bit ofproblem solving and that's
pretty much what that all isright.
Nays Baghai (14:57):
Exactly, I loved playing Lego and chess as a kid,
so I think that problem solvingside of me definitely stems
from that.
But yeah, yeah, I had to learnhow to cave dive as a result of
that, because I knew that beingan armchair director that would
just sit on the surface wasanathema to me, given that I had
(15:18):
a rebreather certification atthe time.
So I remember telling myinstructor, ryan, not to take it
easy on me, and I told him whatI would be doing with Jill and
the rest of the gang in Mexico.
So I was not prepared for howbrutal the cave course is, but I
forced myself to get through itbecause I just knew that, a it
(15:42):
would better acquaint me withthe source material and B it
meant that I actually could bedown there with the other divers
and watch what was going on andmake sure that you know they
had their general on the frontlines with them.
Because I said to them look,I'm not letting you guys risk
your lives because of a stupidfilm that I want to do.
(16:05):
I'm coming down there with you.
Yeah, totally.
Brett Stanley (16:08):
But I mean, how does that?
If you didn't go down with them, how would you get the shots
that you wanted?
Is it just a matter of givingthe camera operators shot lists
and then just hoping that theyget?
Nays Baghai (16:19):
what you want.
That's a great question,because there were some days
that we had to shave down thecrew to only three people in the
water, simply because the caveswere too small to fit all six
of us.
So the way that we did that wasI would storyboard and shot,
list the shit out of it thenight before and we would meet
(16:40):
in the dive shed every morningand I would tell Yane, yane
Suhun, and shout out to Yane.
I would tell Yane what I had inmind for the scene, tonally and
technically in terms of like,okay, we need X amount of shots
to cover and this is what theyneed, and Yane would kind of
(17:00):
interpret it in his ownstoryboards and so that he under
he, he too was like fluentlyabsorbing it.
And we had jill, of course,there to, you know, corroborate
whether the scene was actuallytrue to what happened, as well
as also the local safety diversand guides who knew the caves to
(17:22):
say, okay, this part of thecave will work for this scene,
but let's not go to this part ofthe cave.
So there was actually one pointwhere it had to be a smaller
crew because we had someonewhose rebreather head
malfunctioned midway through theshoot.
So I said, well, my this cave'stoo small to fit all of us
(17:44):
anyway, so you take myrebreather and use that for the
shoot.
And I'm not going to lie to you,it was really torturous and
painful for me to not be in thewater and see what they were
doing, but it did allow me to,you know, edit the sequences on
the fly and spend more timereviewing the footage.
And, you know, edit thesequences on the flight and
(18:05):
spend more time reviewing thefootage.
And, you know, coming up withscratch edits, as we called them
, and coaching it.
But for the most part, I triedto be in the water when I could
to see how it was going and bethere to, you know, guide the
crew if they needed it.
Brett Stanley (18:24):
Oh yeah, totally.
So how many days was that thatyou weren't in the water with
them.
Nays Baghai (18:29):
I I'm afraid I can't remember the amount of dry
days for me, but I can't oneyeah, it had, it was, it was
more than one, but eventually II forced myself to just get
comfortable with it and justthink you know what this is, a a
team, you know effort and youjust got to do what you got to
(18:50):
do to get everyone else to thefinish line.
And you know, oh yeah, totallyFocus on the film.
Brett Stanley (18:59):
Yeah, I mean, were you like?
I kind of just picture you onthe surface, like you know,
walking back and forth and kindof wringing your hands like an
expected father.
Nays Baghai (19:07):
Yeah, well, or more , like I felt more like a heroin
addict, climbing the walls whenI wasn't in the water, yeah,
but yeah, I really I reallyenjoyed, like you know, being in
the caves actually, and becausefor the simple reason that it's
the closest I've ever gotten tofeeling like an astronaut on
Earth.
I know that's a line in thefilm, but it's the truth.
(19:29):
I mean, when you're diving on arebreather down there, it's
impossible not to feel likeyou're doing a spacewalk.
Brett Stanley (19:37):
Oh, no, totally.
I mean, the whole soundscapehas changed from diving, you
know, the constant stream ofbubbles, yeah, and the way you
float down there must be very.
The constant stream of bubbles,yeah, and the way you float
down there must be verydifferent as well because of the
closed circuit.
Nays Baghai (19:49):
Yeah, the buoyancy is so different to scuba, but in
many ways it's actually betterfor filming, because I don't
know if you've used a rebreatheryet, but, unlike scuba, your
buoyancy is not affected by yourbreathing.
So when you're hovering in themid-water column trying to get a
shot, it means that you canjust be much more stable and not
(20:13):
have to worry about whetheryour inhale or exhale will lift
you or sink you.
And I've been on scuba sincethat shoot and while I love it,
I'm just cursing myself for nothaving the rebreather at the
moment no, I know that.
Brett Stanley (20:28):
I know that kind of feeling like no, I haven't
done the rebreather stuff, but Ido every time I'm filming and
I'm on scuba.
I am so constantly aware of youknow what my breath is doing
and I'm kind of doing thingsthat are not typical for me in
terms of how I normally breathe,because I've got to try and
time it with the shot or thecamera movement and, yeah, are
(20:50):
we looking up and am I going tobreathe into my own shot?
You know it's such a.
Nays Baghai (20:54):
It's even so limiting it's even worse when
you're working with sharks.
I remember in the Galapagos, arogue school of hammerhead shark
showed up above me and I wasdesperately trying to not hold
my breath too long because Iknew that the bubbles would not
only scare them away but ruinthe shop.
(21:14):
And I'm just like holding it aslong as I can and then 12
seconds in, I let it go and thesharks have gone in a flash.
So that was one of thosemoments where I was just at the
time I didn't have my rereaderset, but that was a moment that
definitely pushed me to, youknow, think, man, I probably
should investigate it now.
(21:35):
Yeah.
Brett Stanley (21:37):
But I guess with that, especially when you're
cave diving because you're insuch a limited space and you
really don't want to be you know, sort of I guess you're fairly
linear in terms of your depthwhen you're in such a limited
space and you really don't wantto be you know, sort of I guess
you're fairly linear in terms ofyour depth when you're going
through a cave, for the mostpart.
So having the problem withbreathing is, you know you're
basically having to, you know,adjust your buoyancy or your
trim every time you breathe inand breathe out, because it's
(21:58):
going to push you up or down.
Yeah, as with the closedcircuit not so much.
Nays Baghai (22:02):
Yeah, Another advantage of the rebreathers
that I learned while we weredown there is that because it's
a closed circuit system, you'renot dislodging any silt from the
overhead part, so that meansthat it's just much cleaner and
clearer as a result of that.
I mean there were some dayswhere there were divers on open
(22:25):
circuit sidemount but amazingly,Jill had the cleanest footprint
for an open circuit sidemountdiver.
And also, her sac rate isamazing.
She could easily belt out agood two to three hours on side
mount and still not be worriedabout.
(22:47):
Like I, I have no idea how shedoes it, Whereas I'm a.
I'm a guzzler.
Brett Stanley (22:52):
Right, yeah, and just so, just for people
listening who don't know theside mount, just explain what
side mount is.
Nays Baghai (22:57):
Oh sorry, so side mount is, rather than when you
have one or two tanks on yourback, it's when you have one
tank on your left side, like aharness, and another on the
right side.
So it's really designed for forcave diving because of how it's
a more horizontal profile andit's it's flatter too, so it
(23:20):
means that you can, you know,squeeze into smaller places that
you otherwise wouldn't be ableto get into with a large tank on
your back.
Brett Stanley (23:30):
Yeah, so it kind of makes that kind of the caving
experience a lot more easier.
Yeah, and so when you're doingthese reenactments which is kind
of where it was right, like youknow Jill is narrating these
events in her life and you'regoing back and then filming
these reenactments, what wasthat like for you as a director
in terms of your vision of thatreenactment and kind of what
(23:52):
Jill's was?
Nays Baghai (23:53):
Were you guys on sort of the same page or was she
kind of like oh, you justinterpret it how you want to it
was actually really fun andpleasant doing the reenactments
with Jill and it was reallyharmonious, more than anything,
and we were really lucky, in theplaces in Mexico that we were
filming that a lot of the caveswere actually quite similar to
(24:16):
locations that were not asreadily accessible whether it
was, like you know, huatla inEastern Mexico or some caves in
Florida that we couldn't visit.
And because I had asked Jillwhat kind of details were in XYZ
cave, when she actually rockedup and I double checked it with
(24:37):
her, she was really positive andrelaxed about it and I think
but as far as, like the sceneconstruction went, she tapped
into it quite easily.
For someone who isn't really anactress and I think, but for me
as a director, I kind ofwrestled away that taboo voice
(25:03):
of like, oh, you shouldn't doreenactments, it disrupts the
authenticity.
I think the reason for me fordoing it was because the
alternative of just using photosor a talking head was not
really gonna do it justice froma cinematic perspective, whereas
bringing it to life with a filmscene was much more fun as a
(25:26):
challenge to bring it to lifeand there were, it was really.
It was a real challenge tryingto think about how to, you know,
place the camera in certainparts of the cave.
That also tapped into herpsychology of what she was
feeling at the time, cause weultimately wanted to tell a
(25:48):
character driven story but thereenactments were.
I think.
I think it's a thing with cavedivers is that we tend to be
drawn to challenges and makingthe impossible possible.
So, yeah, I mean storyboardingit and, you know, planning it
was really hard, but shooting itwas a whole different thing.
(26:10):
But I really owe a lot to thecrew that brought it to life.
I mean Yane and Rich Stevenson,the two guys who shot it, jill
on camera and Ari and Vincentwho are doing logistics and
watching the whole thing.
I mean it really is a teameffort.
So, as much as my ego wouldlove to take the credit for it,
(26:34):
I think the real, I really feellike that it's a team effort
more than anything.
Brett Stanley (26:41):
Well, I think that's true for Underwater in
general.
I mean, it's very hard to do alot of the stuff that we do
without a solid team.
Yeah, how did you find thesepeople?
How did you, how did you pullthis team together?
Was it people you'd worked withbefore?
Nays Baghai (26:54):
well, I actually hadn't worked with any of them
before, other than Jill, ofcourse.
But when you're looking for,you know cave diving
cinematographers who are masterrebreather divers and have an
eye for shooting and arecreative down there, that the
list gets shortened prettyquickly.
And yeah, the reason I pick Ihandpicked yanni in rich was
(27:19):
because for many, the probablythe biggest reason was what they
had done with the short filmdive odys, which they shot in
Oyama Mine in Finland, which notonly is beautifully shot on an
A7S II from a technicalperspective, but most
importantly it pays homage to alot of science fiction classics
(27:44):
Blade Runner, alien 2001, silentRunning, like you name it.
And that kind of tip of the hatto science fiction was what I
was looking for for a stylisticperspective, and it meant that
those guys really knew how tolight and shoot the scene in a
(28:06):
way that gave the film the rightlook that we were trying to
achieve, because the film doesallude to the parallels between
space exploration and caveexploration.
And yeah, I was.
I just knew that because yaneand Rich were, first and
foremost, technical divers andcave explorers first.
(28:29):
That meant that they werecompletely safe in the water and
could just flawlessly executethe, the shots.
Plus, they had worked together,which is a really imperative
thing.
Like you don't, the, it wouldhave been hell if they didn't
know each other and didn't likeeach other and didn't know how
to communicate.
(28:50):
But because they did have thatshared history, it meant that it
was very easy for them to notget in each other's way.
And, yeah, I, I can't, I, we.
It was a challenging shoot mind, but when I look at the footage
, I have nothing but positivethings to say about what they
(29:10):
came up with.
Brett Stanley (29:12):
Oh, no, totally, and so how does communication
work down there?
So if you're on a Bree breather, is it just with slates and
hand signals, or can you be onsome sort of comms system?
You?
Nays Baghai (29:24):
can do comms but there's a few risks involved to
it.
We ended up doing a high, amishmash of different
communication methods, like youcan kind of talk on a rebreather
, but it sounds like bane fromthe dark knight rises like right
because you're talking intoyour mouthpiece, right yeah,
like I'd be like, yeah, can youmove a little more to the left
and we can.
Just, I mean we could kind ofunderstand each other.
(29:46):
But I did keep a waterproofnotebook made by housey and in
my back pocket at all times.
So, yeah, I mostly use that forticking off shots, but I did
use it a lot for communicationand we did use like tactile
communication with the lightsand hand signals.
But honestly, a lot of it waspreparation that we did before,
(30:09):
like identifying what we wantedto do, where we were going to be
.
That kind of meant that weweren't faffing around in the
water as much.
So it's really.
I mean, you do have toimprovise a lot when you're down
there, but if you aren'tprepared when you show up to a
cave diving shoot, then it'sgoing to be a very nasty day in
(30:30):
the water.
Brett Stanley (30:31):
Oh no, totally, yeah, I think, yeah, yeah.
I can't even imagine what it'slike.
You know, because I'm not acave diver.
I've seen cave divers.
Caves freak me out.
The amount of equipment youhave to have just to go in there
safely freaks me out, let aloneall the mental and logistical
you know kind of gymnastics youhave to do to even make it kind
(30:53):
of safe.
Yeah, it's impressive and kindof mind blowing, but also
nothing I would ever want to domyself.
Nays Baghai (31:01):
Well, let me put it this way, I feel I actually
feel more relaxed in a cave thanI do in the middle of the open
ocean, where the currents andswells a bit dodgy, because it's
so protected and also it'seasier to get into the water for
some caves and yeah, and alsothere's no jellyfish or wayward
(31:22):
animals as well Like, andthere's no seasickness.
I mean, don't get me wrong, Ilove being in the ocean, but
when you're on the ocd side andyou're a little, you know, just
wanting it, wanting stability,sometimes it you can get a
little spoiled, shooting in acape or sinkhole well, I guess,
and I only just really kind ofthought of this then, is that it
(31:44):
, that the cave really is such acontrolled environment, apart
from, I guess, your own mentaland emotional state?
yeah, there are some caves wherethere is like a tidal, like a
flow going in and there iscurrent in there, but that's
mostly in Florida, whereas inMexico I didn't experience any
(32:04):
of that whatsoever right, yeah,and I guess even in, even in
florida, you know what you'regetting yourself into, you know
what those flows are like.
Brett Stanley (32:11):
It's not like it's suddenly reverse or
something, or well, at least youhope it doesn't.
Yeah right, true there are.
So I've spent a lot of time inin the florida spring.
Then I know a lot of peoplethere who who have done a lot of
those cave dives and, yeah,some of the stories from there
in terms of you know the waythose sinkholes kind of suck and
(32:31):
blow and all that sort of stuff, it's really quite interesting,
yeah.
Nays Baghai (32:37):
I mean.
The strange thing for me,though, was that, because I was
a newly minted cave diver at thetime, I reluctantly decided not
to shoot with a camera, simplybecause I wanted to just be
ultra safe and also focus ondirecting Yanni and Rich, but
because I wasn't operating thecamera.
(32:59):
Since that shoot, I'veconstantly had a real itch to
scratch in terms of taking myown camera down there, and
shooting something again LikeI'd still want to.
even after what we went throughin Mexico.
I still want to go back and doit again, I think and so there
is.
Brett Stanley (33:19):
I guess there is a, I mean for me personally.
I love camera operating.
I love moving the camera.
I'm happy to be told where tomove it to.
I'm happy to be told where tomove it to.
I'm happy to be told how toframe the shot, but seeing that
image move across my screen isso joyous, yeah, whereas I'm
sure there's some people who arelike no, I don't want to deal
with that, I just want to tellyou what to do.
Nays Baghai (33:41):
I mean it's yin and yang.
I mean, personally, I lovehaving a camera in my hands.
It's the same feeling that Ihave when I've got a guitar or a
bass guitar in my hands.
It's just like you're doingsomething that makes you feel
like a craftsman.
But all projects have differentcircumstances.
(34:07):
You know circumstances and somerequire you to do sacrifices,
so it it is a bit of a pain togive it up, but if there's
anyone that you want to let youwant to drive that that part,
then who better to to ask thanthe, the guys who ended up doing
(34:28):
it?
I I mean I mentioned yanni andrich, but also john shore, who
shot the new zealand sequencesunderwater.
I mean that was also reallyspecial for me because john was
my on and off mentor forunderwater cinematography for
many years.
So working working with him wasa really really nice full circle
(34:50):
moment.
Brett Stanley (34:51):
So that's really quite nice, being able to bring
people into projects like that,you know, kind of being able to
sort of pay it forward or tobring them in so they can
actually, you know, be part ofyour evolving.
Nays Baghai (35:03):
Yeah, I mean it can get interesting at times
because I spoke to you know,john and Yane and Rich and a few
other underwater DPs that I'veworked with, and they all told
me that it was a majoradjustment working for me, and
because of the fact that I'malso an underwater DP and I said
(35:24):
, well, isn't that what you wantas a DP?
Like, surely having a directorwho knows the intricacies of how
to you know cam up underwaterhelps you.
But they said well, sometimesyou can be too fluent and I'm
looking over at you thinking whydid you hire me?
(35:44):
You should be doing thisyourself.
But honestly, like I really,not only am I really proud of
what they came up with, but Ialso really liked how I kept
learning on the job and therewas never.
Even though I'm nearly at the8,000 hour mark with filmmaking,
(36:08):
I still feel like a Padawanlearner every day I get up.
Brett Stanley (36:13):
Well, I think you know, and from talking to
people like, a lot of the timethat doesn't go away, and I
think for a lot of us that'swhat we're craving.
Is that learning experienceevery time?
Yeah, it's a dopamine hit to acertain degree yeah, I think,
and it harkens back to thatproblem solving of.
Oh okay, this is a new puzzle,let's work out how to do this
(36:34):
one.
Nays Baghai (36:35):
I've not done this one before yeah, I think the
thing is is that when you lookback and think, god, I, I did
that, like I solved that problem, it's you're, it's.
I would much rather go throughthe worst shoot imaginable and
get some shots out of it, thenback out and not have anything
(36:56):
to show for it.
I think that, and alsoparticularly in New Zealand,
there was a real sense ofcamaraderie and it was, or as we
called, like a real kiwi spirit, where we were all, just like
you know, working as a unit andjust tackling whatever came at
us, no matter whether theproblem was big or small.
(37:19):
And it's you.
Brett Stanley (37:22):
You feel invincible when you're, you know
, just blitzing through, shot toshot and it's finally working
oh no, I mean, there's, there,is, there, is that I don't know
like I, I've always craved beingpart of a team.
You know, I used to watch the ateam when I was a kid and I was
just like, oh my god, you know,these guys have all got their
separate skill sets and they allwork together so perfectly.
Yeah, that's what I love ofbeing on a film set or, you know
(37:46):
, on a photography set, ofhaving skilled people who can do
their job and help to createthis massive, you know,
successful end result.
Nays Baghai (37:56):
A hundred percent.
You perfectly hit the nail onthe head there your earlier work
, which is Descent.
Brett Stanley (38:11):
How was that in terms of crew?
Nays Baghai (38:12):
and and and uh, the size of the production was it?
Was it a smaller?
Oh yeah, it was spoke.
It was nowhere as colossal asDiving Into the Darkness and I
mean, it was my first ever filmstraight out of university, so
it, um, it definitely pushed mein ways that I didn't expect,
but I mean, for starters, like Iwas, you know, directing,
(38:33):
writing, producing, shooting,editing and sound design, you
name it but it was, um, in manyways, like it was, it just felt
really fun to, you know, do itin, you know, my home office and
, you know, really learn as Iwas going and not really there
(38:55):
was pressure, of course, but itwasn't the same kind of pressure
as I felt on diving into thedarkness, having having already
done a feature, whereas inDescent I kind of felt like it
was more of a sandbox in a way.
Brett Stanley (39:13):
What do you mean by sandbox?
Like something that was for you.
You had to sort of work out howto make it.
Nays Baghai (39:18):
No, just like something that I could really
play around with and take risksand approach with a clean slate.
Brett Stanley (39:24):
Yeah, so you didn't have any preconceptions,
you didn't have any pre-madekind of methodology or anything.
You could just kind of wing ita little bit.
Nays Baghai (39:32):
Yeah, I mean, don't get me wrong, of course I had
expectations and dreams of whereI wanted the film to end up,
but really it was just.
I treated it as a vehicle forlearning the craft of feature
filmmaking, as opposed to shorts, cause I directed shorts before
and I had, you know, internedon feature films before, but I
(39:56):
had never directed a featuredocumentary before.
So it was really.
It was pardon this, this pun,it was diving into the darkness
for me.
Yeah, exactly.
Brett Stanley (40:09):
Yeah, that's beautifully brought back around
again.
Nice callback.
Nays Baghai (40:14):
Yeah, just got to improvise that one.
Brett Stanley (40:18):
So with your career in terms of so you
started off you wanted to be amarine biologist and then you
started to see, you know, camerawork and everything.
Was your idea to be a director,or did you sort of go through
wanting to be a DP first andthen?
Nays Baghai (40:34):
evolved.
Well, when I watched BluePlanet for the first time, I
also watched Star Wars at thesame time.
So there was definitely thatyin and yang of diving in film.
But, to answer your question, Ithink I always wanted to be a
director, but I wanted to be adirector who was involved in the
(40:54):
process.
As I said, like sitting in anarmchair and not doing anything,
not using a camera or editing,was heresy to me, like I
couldn't, you know, do that.
So I felt like that by the timeI got to film school, the goal
of being a director persisted.
(41:15):
But I do love being anunderwater DP and also a dry DP
as well, but I really like.
I guess part of the influencethat documentary filmmaking has
had on me is that I like to workwith a low footprint and
unencumbered by the constraintsof a big set where you've got
(41:37):
like a gaffer or a grip and allthese ACs and stuff that you
need to.
That can kind of lock you intowhat you're doing.
But when you're doing like awildlife shoot, the
cinematographer is kind of thedirector in a strange way.
So yeah, for me like it really.
(41:58):
It all depends on the project,but I think I'm a storyteller at
the end of the day.
So if directing is the means todo that, then then bring it no,
no, totally so.
Brett Stanley (42:11):
So, but coming out of film school you know you
said, descent was your first oneout of film school.
How did you, how did you createthat opportunity for yourselves
?
Nays Baghai (42:20):
in the final year of my time at film school I kind
of began to find my footing assomeone who wanted to tell
underwater stories.
So I kind of calibrated the lastassignments that I had in that
last year to really do the prepwork for Descent and start
(42:40):
thinking about who I am wantedto work with, where I wanted to
shoot it and how I wanted totell the story.
And really by the time Ifinished I had all the most of
the answers I was looking forand it became clear that doing
it through the you know,traditional studio method wasn't
(43:03):
feasible, partly because I wasa nobody and an unknown at the
time.
So of course I wouldn't havebeen able to do that.
But also I knew that there weresome EPs who just wanted to
mold it a particular way thatdidn't jive with what I had in
mind.
So I just said screw it, let'sdo an independent, find the
(43:24):
money from wherever we can anddo it.
And if I have to, you know,edit and direct pro bono in
order to make the film happen,then yeah, so be it.
But really, like there was theonly time I really like I only
had like barely had a break inbetween finishing film school
(43:46):
and going straight to Descent.
So it was like a shot out ofthe cannon pretty much, yeah.
Brett Stanley (43:52):
But so I mean, Descent is basically the story
of Kiki Bosch and her use ofcold water freediving as therapy
.
How did you get onto that story, Like, how did you?
Did you already know Kiki?
Nays Baghai (44:06):
I had seen a video of Kiki freediving in Iceland
and, having been to Silframyself, of course, I knew how
amazing it was that she could dothat.
But when I met her in person inLondon not long after that
video came out, by the way, andshe told me the full story of
what had happened to her and whyshe was doing it, that's when I
(44:29):
kind of had that push to wantto tell her story and, similarly
to Jill, I wanted her to bevery involved in the accuracy
and authenticity of the story.
And I think because it was sucha a really small production I
(44:50):
mean, we were all staying in thesame Airbnb and Arrow the
producer was also shooting inaddition to me so it just felt
like a family home video to acertain degree, but with extreme
underwater environments as thebackdrop.
Brett Stanley (45:08):
So yeah, was that ?
Was that film?
Did you film the entirety ofthat or did you?
Did you have footage from fromother sources?
Nays Baghai (45:16):
No, no, no, there were some DPs that did some
things that I couldn't tacklefor logistical reasons and a lot
of the film is contained stockstock archival footage from
Stefan Andrews, who was Kiki'spartner at the time and is a
brilliant underwater cameraman.
But yeah, I tried to shootwhere I could, but I didn't want
(45:41):
to compromise the film too muchby wearing too many hats, so
there were some scenes where Ilet another DP spin the wheel
for a change.
Brett Stanley (45:54):
Right, and so you had a small amount of, if you
say, archival footage.
Nays Baghai (46:00):
Yeah, it couldn't have been more than like 18,
maybe 20 minutes of archivalfootage.
It wasn't the whole film, yeahdid you?
Brett Stanley (46:09):
did you have that archival footage when you were
kind of storyboarding and youknew you kind of, okay, we can
fill the gaps with this stuff,but we're gonna need yeah, kind
of, yeah, because I yeah,because I think, with with
jill's, like she had such a,like a you know a treasure trove
of archival footage for you toplay with, was.
Is that a?
Is that something you getexcited about, or how does it
(46:32):
feel?
Nays Baghai (46:33):
I do, actually, because it's a fun challenge as
an editor to see how you canmake the footage more like, more
cinematic and you know what'sthe word more make it feel alive
.
For to a certain degree, yeah,but to be honest with you, like
going back to your questionabout the reenactments, because
(46:54):
so many of those scenes did notexist on film.
A lot of it came down to thattask of thinking about how you
could reshoot it from scratch.
But bring it really like youknow, use the language of cinema
, from the shot choices to thesound, to make it feel like you
(47:17):
were living the moment with herat the time.
Brett Stanley (47:19):
Yeah, and I've got to say you did that so well.
I watched the film on a plane.
I was coming back from NewJersey to LA, so I had it on my
phone and I was just watching it.
Nays Baghai (47:33):
I'm gonna kill you for watching it on your phone
like it deserves to be watchedon the big screen, not just
kidding no, I mean, I have likea.
Brett Stanley (47:40):
I have a 65 inch um screen in my house.
But because I wasn't there andI wanted to, I needed to watch
this film and I needed to kindof, you know, corner you into
this podcast.
That I'd be and I needed towatch this film, and I needed to
kind of corner you into thispodcast, that I just needed to
watch it.
So I was just like, all right,this flight is the best place to
do this.
And for me, I really quite likewatching things on small
screens in a plane, because mytunnel vision just makes it my
(48:04):
whole world, because the wholeplane is dark, so it doesn't
really matter so much.
But what I kind of found wasthat I'd be watching it and I'm
like I'm picturing you in mymind.
I'm like, okay, where's hegoing with this?
And I kind of know Jill's storyand there was parts of me that
were like, oh, here we go, thisis going to be tricky.
How's he going to handle it?
Oh, no, well, how's he going tohandle it?
(48:30):
Oh, no, well, no, that workedreally well.
So it was all these kind ofmoments where I was expecting
there to be a bit of a stumblejust because of you know how do
you tackle this, but you did itso smoothly and so seamlessly.
Nays Baghai (48:36):
Thank, you, it was just beautiful.
I really appreciate that a lot.
I mean, I remember showing thefilm to Harry Connick Jr, who I
met last year and became kind oflike a friend, and he told me
that when he watched the film itreminded him a lot of what he
(48:58):
does as a jazz musician on stage, in the sense of toying with
the audience and taking it in adirection that you think it's
going to go, and then doing ahairpin turn that ultimately
achieves the goal, but does itin a direction that you think
it's going to go, and then doinga hairpin turn that ultimately
achieves the goal, but does itin an unexpected, playful way.
And I hadn't really thought ofit that way.
But when I think about it nowI'm thinking how maybe I must
(49:23):
have absorbed that from eithersome movie that I watched as a
film student or even as amusician, just like playing
around on the guitar and playingsome notes.
That took it in a completelydifferent direction.
But yeah, it's, I really do tryto keep the audience in mind
(49:43):
when I'm editing something and Iremember having a post-it note
on my editing desk when I editit, saying if the audience does
not squirm or gasp in shock whenwatching XYZ sequences, you
failed, right, yeah.
Brett Stanley (50:01):
Well, I can tell you I may have embarrassed
myself a little on the plane,because I was.
I say full disclosure I'mhighly, highly claustrophobic.
Oh dear, yeah.
And the, the, the scenes underthe ice were giving me heart
palpitations.
So, yeah, well done on that one.
Nays Baghai (50:20):
I'm sorry to revel in your discomfort, but I'm very
relieved to hear that it didthe job.
Brett Stanley (50:29):
No, I mean it's mission accomplished and also it
was engaging the whole waythrough.
I mean kind of knowing thestory already.
I was kind of like, you know,because I've had Jill on the
podcast and we've kind of talkedabout a lot of that stuff, yeah
, but I was kind of expecting tokind of go yeah, let's move on.
But it flew really well and, asyou say it, kind of there were
(50:50):
things where I was like, oh, hehasn't touched on that bit, and
then then we would go back andtouch on that and I'd be like,
oh no, this is good like it was.
It was kind of like riding ayou know, it was like riding a
current.
It was just kind of just gowhere you take me and we'll just
see what happens I hadn'tthought of it that way, but I'll
.
I'll take that as a compliment,so thank you, yeah, yeah of
course, and now, the other thingas well that I really liked
about what you did was the.
(51:12):
A lot of the flashbacksequences were animated.
Yeah, what was the theinspiration behind that?
Nays Baghai (51:19):
Well, to be honest with you, it was really a
combination of a logistical anda creative decision.
I mean the logistics of goingback to the 70s and 90s and
finding an actress that lookslike her, getting the props,
getting the extras, thelocations, was just a pain in
(51:39):
the ass from a producer'sperspective.
And also, I felt like I had donereenactments with Descent
before showing Kiki as a youngergirl and a younger woman, and I
(52:01):
just had a gut feeling itwouldn't work, for Jill wanted,
uh, the challenge of not onlydoing something I hadn't done
before, but also using thelimitless nature of animation to
tell a story in a way that liveaction couldn't.
And yeah, um, it really it was.
(52:21):
Also another challenge that wefaced was trying to have that
right balance between, you know,feeling nostalgic but not rosy,
like a disney, pixar movie and,on the other hand, having grit
and maturity, but not too muchthat it felt like an out of
place batman graphic novel.
(52:43):
So trying to find the right or,as we called it, the the
goldilocks level of style forthe animation was not easy.
But the animators who were fromnorway, I think they they did a
really good job of pulling itoff and so how did you find them
?
Brett Stanley (53:00):
had you seen work of theirs before, or was it
just through the researchprocess you started found them?
Nays Baghai (53:05):
really through the research process I went through
about does like dozens ofyoutube and vimeo channels from
young, up-and-coming animationstudios that had the right kind
of style that I was after and Isaw a film that the norwegian
somnium animation studio, by theway that they had done and I
(53:27):
zoomed with them and asked themabout, you know, various
questions and they asked me afew questions and I pretty much
hired them on the spot afterthat.
Brett Stanley (53:37):
It was when it, when the movie went to the
animation sequences, there was alittle bit of it was like oh,
but then it was like this isfine, like this, this works,
like it wasn't.
It didn't take me out of themovie.
Nays Baghai (53:49):
Thank you.
I mean, I think the thing thatI was trying to keep in mind
like there's many movies whereyou can clearly tell that it's
just done to satiate thedirector's ego and I was really
trying to make a consciouseffort of you know what, forget
what I want or what I want toindulge in what's right for the
(54:13):
story and the overall pictureand, yeah, I talked to the other
people on the team and thatjust naturally came about as the
solution to utilize and yeah,it was very challenging Again,
like probably comparable to thecave sequences that we shot, but
(54:36):
at the end of the day, it was agood learning experience for me
as a director.
Brett Stanley (54:42):
Oh, no, totally.
I mean mixed media.
I think it must be hard whenyou have so many options.
Like you know, going throughall those Vimeos and through
those YouTubes, you must havefound so many things that you
were like, oh, I want to do that, but is that right for this one
?
Yeah.
Nays Baghai (54:56):
I just remember.
Do I bookmark that for later?
You know this on another on herown podcast.
But to get her likeness right,the animators asked her to take
literally like a hundreddifferent selfies of her facial
expressions, like look sad, lookangry, look happy.
(55:18):
And I also had jill send overall of her archival photographs
from her childhood to theanimators so that they could
just really tap into the detailsand bring it to life.
And there's a scene with theNational Geographic magazine
(55:40):
covers and the backgrounds andthose magazine covers that you
see were the actual magazinesthat Jill had as a kid.
Brett Stanley (55:49):
Oh right, so you managed to get photos of your
scandal.
Yeah, that's awesome.
I mean, having access to thatmuch collateral and that many
assets must have been a littlebit of like a kid in a candy
store.
Nays Baghai (56:03):
It was definitely a kid in the candy store moment
and it made all those torturousdays in the editing suite
completely worth it.
Yeah, that's great.
Brett Stanley (56:15):
So what's next, naze?
What is your?
Have you got anything coming upthat you can talk about?
Nays Baghai (56:19):
Yeah, I mean, there's dozens of stories that I
want to tell.
It's hard to say when it willhappen and also, I mean, the
industry is changing faster thanwe can, you know, keep up with
it.
So your guess is as good asmine is in terms of what will be
happening in terms of thefeature film industry.
There's a lot of other projectsthat I want to you know do that
(56:44):
are not feature film relatedand, as a, when we were making
this film, I just fell so inlove with technical diving and
cave diving that that's kind ofsomething that I want to keep
doing and, you know, tellstories with.
And, yeah, honestly, buthonestly, though, like it was
(57:05):
fairly tiring spending two years, you know, bringing diving into
the darkness to life.
So I would like to, you know,take a bit of and I'd really
love to, you know, do anunderwater science fiction film
(57:33):
similar to what you know, notidentical to what Yane and Rich
did, but something that kind ofcontinues that like to,
continues to bear the torchforward in terms of marrying
those two loves together.
Brett Stanley (57:46):
Oh, yeah, that sort of stuff is amazing.
Yeah, yeah, like bringing itback from the abyss, literally.
Nays Baghai (57:54):
Yeah, I mean, every time I put the rebreather on
and I look at the heads updisplay and hear the breathing
and the look at the also wearinga dry suit with the rebreather
it's it's begging to like, youknow, do it and like use it as a
prop in a science fiction suit.
So who knows what mymischievous director will come?
Brett Stanley (58:16):
up with in the next few years, absolutely so.
One last question and I didpose this to Jill and I have
posed it to a few other peoplebut would you go to space?
Hell, yeah, of course I'd go.
You don't find, because somepeople answer that where they're
like no, no, no, water is all Ineed.
Going to space is a wholedifferent beast, but for you
(58:37):
it's the same.
Nays Baghai (58:39):
Yeah.
Well, jill and I both have likean insatiable sense of
curiosity and a desire to seeknewness, so I think that I can't
speak for her, but for me.
I definitely love the challengeand the novelty of going into
(59:02):
space and I, yeah, I love thewater, don't get me wrong but
that I think that the little kidin me that watch, you know,
george Lucas, james Cameron andStanley Kubrick films would,
would scream with joy at theopportunity to do that.
That's great awesome Nays.
Brett Stanley (59:21):
This has been so good man.
Nays Baghai (59:22):
I loved hearing, hearing your story and and I'm
looking forward to seeing whatyou come up with soon thanks so
much, brett, and thank you somuch for having me on this
podcast, especially with all theroyalty that you've had before
me.
Brett Stanley (59:34):
It's totally.
Everyone fits right in man,Everyone's got a good story.
Everyone has a very differentoutlook on the same thing, so
it's always good.
Nays Baghai (59:43):
Yeah Thanks.
So much, man, yeah thanks somuch, man.
Brett Stanley (59:50):
Thanks for listening everyone and, as
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(01:00:10):
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(01:00:30):
Read it online or purchase aprint edition at
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Keep creating, everyone.
(01:00:52):
I'll see you in the water.
Welcome to the Underwater Podcast, where we
take a deep dive into the worldof underwater portrait
photography, cinematography andeverything in between with your
host, brett Stanley Stanley.
Welcome back to the UnderwaterPodcast, and this week I'm
(00:34):
chatting with Australiandirector Nase Baghai about his
career in underwater filmmaking.
We talk about his newdocumentary, diving Into the
Darkness and what it's like tobring the life of renowned cave
diver Jill Hinearth to the bigscreen and the many challenges
that came along with it.
Nays talks in detail about thecreation of the film, what
influences him as a filmmakerand how he got his start
underwater way back in filmschool.
(00:55):
Okay, let's dive in, nays.
Welcome to the UnderwaterPodcast.
Thanks for having me, brett.
Oh, it's a pleasure.
Man, we've known of each othersince I started the podcast.
You reached out pretty early onand it was such an awesome way
to connect was through thepodcast, so seeing you go from
(01:16):
there and then from strength tostrength with your new
documentary has just beenamazing to see that come about.
Nays Baghai (01:22):
Thanks so much, brett.
I mean I've been a fan of yourpodcast since its inception.
I mean to be on.
It is a real privilege andhonor and also it's cool meeting
another Aussie in theunderwater film industry around
the world.
So always a pleasure to meetanother country man.
Brett Stanley (01:37):
No, no, totally.
Because I live in the Statesand it's so very, you know,
us-centric that when I speak toan Australian I get very
nostalgic.
So there will be parts whereI'm kind of getting a little
misty eyed maybe I think Cool,man.
So you have been working.
Most recently you're probablyyour two most biggest kind of
productions have been twodocumentaries on underwater.
How did you get into theunderwater world?
(01:59):
What was your entry into it?
Nays Baghai (02:01):
Oh, that's a long story that goes back gosh,
nearly 20 years from now.
So it really started when I wasa kid and, like most guys who
do what I do, I was a hugemarine biology nerd as a kid.
So I would come home fromschool with a backpack filled
with shark and whaleencyclopedias, and my
(02:23):
grandparents, who were visitingfrom Canada at the time, noticed
what I was up to.
So the next time they paid avisit they gave me the four-disc
special edition of the originalBlue Planet and I watched it
and was immediately spellboundby that show, not only because
(02:46):
of the marine biology storiesthat were being told in the
episodes, but also, and perhapsmore, by the making of
documentary that chronicled whatthe cameramen and producers
were getting up to.
And there was one image I thinkit was Mike Degree in Cocos
Island with his rebreather andbig film like film camera
(03:08):
housing filming hammerheadsharks, and I was like that is
what I want to do when I'm anadult.
So the only problem was I wastoo young to do a patty open
water course at the time, so Ihad to wait until I could do
that, and then I took a reallylong detour through the
filmmaking path as a result ofthat and that ended up eclipsing
(03:31):
my passion for marine biologyin the end, until during my
first year at film school, wherea classmate told me that she
was shooting an underwater scenefor her first year film and I
immediately put my hand upsaying I want to shoot that.
And bear in mind this is in themiddle of Sydney winter, with
pretty tall waves and cold water.
(03:51):
So it wasn't.
And also, I had a GoPro Hero 3as my camera.
So it wasn't the mostauspicious gig that you could
dream up, but it was.
I felt like a pig in the mudwhen I was filming that and as
soon as my camera, like you know, as soon as my finger began
(04:12):
clicking the shutter of thecamera, it was a light bulb
moment at that point and afterthat it was just a matter okay,
how do I learn how to do thisprofessionally and sensibly?
And yeah, I then decided to.
You know, merge what I waslearning at film school about
the craft of filmmaking withdiving and, you know, filming
(04:34):
underwater.
And yeah, here we are.
Brett Stanley (04:37):
Yeah it's.
I mean, it's such a common kindof path, I think, for people
getting down to water.
I think I know so many people,especially guys, who when they
were kids they wanted to be amarine biologist.
Nays Baghai (04:47):
I wanted to be a marine biologist yeah, I mean,
there's always that itch tolearn more and recently, even
though I'm not a a big socialmedia fan, I try to make my post
educational, include factsabout the sharks and other like
animals that I'll find to kindof give it like an educational
(05:09):
spin on it and really tap intothat, cause it's such a, from a
cerebral perspective, a reallyfascinating world to tap into,
for me at least.
Brett Stanley (05:19):
Oh, no, totally.
And then so is that why youended up sort of going more into
the documentary world asopposed to, like the narrative
feature film sort of work?
Nays Baghai (05:28):
Well, to be honest with you, I actually started off
in narrative rather thandocumentary and to this day I
don't really see myself as adocumentary filmmaker.
I see myself as a you know adirector who happens to do
documentaries.
And that just it just kind oforganically became the genre
(05:50):
that I wanted to tell, simplybecause the best stories were
the real ones.
And part of the advantage ofgoing to film school meant that
I was exposed to all theseamazing, different you know
narrative stories from you knowFederico Fellini's Eight and a
Half to Lawrence of Arabia orwhatever, and that just kind of
(06:14):
really inspired me to draw moreinspiration from you know
fictional stories and films andkind of not really treat my work
as a documentary.
But more like, for me there wasno reason that I couldn't draw
from the vocabulary of, like aScorsese film or a Spielberg
(06:36):
film for a documentary.
So it was really it was seen asheresy at the time by some
professors but for me, me I kindof got off a bit of the
mischief that came from blendingall those genres into the
documentary space and but yeah,it just for me, like there it
(06:57):
was that the best stories that Iwas attracted to happened to be
real people, and if it meantknow going down the documentary
path to tell their stories, thenso be it.
Brett Stanley (07:09):
Oh no, totally, I mean.
That's the thing is.
I mean, the difference reallybetween a narrative feature and
a documentary is really that onejust had a script written and
one has a script that's evolvingas it's happening, I guess.
Nays Baghai (07:21):
Yeah, absolutely, and it's really fun to you know,
write something that can bereally detailed and, if not,
prescriptive, but then when yourock up to the day, you have to,
you know, throw that out,because that's what happens when
you're not only shooting adocumentary but also shooting
underwater and just think, okay,what are the core elements that
(07:44):
we can't change and what arethe things that are more
flexible and malleable that wecan play around with but still
stay true to the story?
Brett Stanley (07:53):
Yeah, so that's kind of so.
It's interesting with the twomain projects that you've done
recently, which is Descent,which is, you know, the story of
Kiki Bosch, the cold water freediver, yeah.
And then you've got the cavediver, jill Hynurth, who had
already written a book about herlife.
What was it like going from saysomething like Descent, where
(08:14):
you possibly had to find thestory in there, to Jill, where
the story was possibly alreadythere?
Nays Baghai (08:21):
That's a great question Really.
I actually personally I lovedboth of them for different
reasons, like, but if I had to,how do I say this?
If with Jill's story, it wasactually a really fun and
pleasantly challenging hurdle totackle, because, first of all,
(08:44):
jill's an amazing legend in ourcommunity and I kept having that
voice in the back of my headlike, do not screw this up, do
justice to the story.
So there was that pressure.
But secondly, when I read thebook, it was just such a
compelling story that I feltlike that.
A lot of it was already there onpaper, but the real challenge
(09:07):
was thinking how I could use themedium of film in a way that
wasn't as a slavish anadaptation could be.
In other words, how could I takethe best parts of the book but
use the format of a 90 minutefilm to tell the story in a way
(09:28):
that worked in a differently tothe way of the book?
And the way that we did that waswe decided to do it in a
non-linear way, and this reallycame about during the editing
process in particular, as wellas the preliminary writing
process, because while tellingit chronologically worked for
(09:49):
the book, it didn't work for theedit because we were showing
our hand too early and revealingstuff.
That worked better in thenon-linear format and I really
drew a lot of inspiration fromGodfather 2 in, you know, trying
to rearrange these sequences ina way where it felt natural but
(10:14):
kept the audience on their toesand also just really made use
of flashbacks in a way where itfelt like you were getting to
know Jill on film as you wouldget to know her in person.
So, and because Jill's such areally collaborative and, you
know, flexible person, havingher as a guide, saying when I
(10:39):
would ask her about, you know,factual or historical questions,
she was really helpful andimaginative and really
respectful for lack of a betterterm and to this day I haven't
had a better workingrelationship with another writer
(10:59):
, let alone a documentarysubject, as her.
Brett Stanley (11:02):
Oh no, totally.
I mean, it kind of comes acrossin the film.
You know, jill is such a goodstoryteller in her own right
yeah, she's such a good speakerthat it felt very cohesive, like
it felt very intimate as well.
Nays Baghai (11:18):
Yeah, I mean that was one of the things that made
filming really easy was becauseshe had been on the other side
of the camera before.
That meant that she really knewhow to, you know, get the kinds
of responses that I was lookingfor.
But even like when you'replanning shoots, I mean she's
the OG, or at least one of theOGs, when it comes to, you know,
(11:42):
filming in caves.
So having her as like a what'sthe term?
A conciliary for how to set upa cave diving shoot, and to do
it creatively too, was a massivehelp for that.
Brett Stanley (11:58):
Oh no, totally.
I mean, you've got yeah, you'vegot her whole, you know, life's
worth of work, which is doingpretty much what you were doing
with her in front of the camera.
So you've got this resource,which must've been amazing to
have, and she would have knownthe locations you were going to
and you know.
So you've kind of I don't know,like you, you got lucky with
having so much knowledge withyour subject.
Nays Baghai (12:19):
Oh yeah, that's definitely an understatement,
like I myself, for how fortunateit was to work with her
throughout the entire two yearsit took to bring that film to
life.
Brett Stanley (12:35):
So how did it come to life?
Was this something that youpitched to her, or how did that
relationship start, start?
Nays Baghai (12:40):
Well, jill and I met at AUSTEC, which is the
largest dive conference inAustralia, about, I think, seven
years ago, and I went up to herI was about 19 at the time and
was just trying to make friendsin the dive industry and we
pretty much hit it off off thebat and I kept in contact with
(13:01):
her over the years, not knowingwhether or not a project to work
with her would ever come tofruition.
But by the time the pandemicended I really wanted a project
that would challenge me andenable me to travel and grow as
a storyteller.
And I had read herautobiography, of course, when
(13:23):
it came out, but slowly as timepassed, no one really like no
one really went with the story,or at least announced they were
going with that book.
So eventually I thought, if noone else is going to do it, then
I will.
Brett Stanley (13:37):
So I called her up on New Year's Day, 2022.
Nays Baghai (13:41):
And I said how would you like to bring Into the
Planet, onto the big screen?
And her answer was pretty muchan immediate yes, and I think
the reason for that was becausewe knew each other well enough
that she kind of knew thedirection I wanted to go and was
not the sensationalist liketypical Hollywood approach that
(14:06):
they do it and that I was goingto prioritize fidelity to the
source material above all else.
So really, about six monthsafter I called her, we were in
Ottawa filming her masterinterview that would kick off
the scenes that we would filmlater throughout the year and,
(14:29):
yeah, it really happened veryorganically.
It was a lot of work toorganize the shoots, but I
wouldn't trade it for anything.
Brett Stanley (14:39):
Oh no, I mean, the experience of that must have
been incredible, not just, youknow, working with Jill, but
also I mean I guess you had toget cave certified, unless you
already were.
You had to go to theselocations and you know, you seem
like someone who likes a bit ofproblem solving and that's
pretty much what that all isright.
Nays Baghai (14:57):
Exactly, I loved playing Lego and chess as a kid,
so I think that problem solvingside of me definitely stems
from that.
But yeah, yeah, I had to learnhow to cave dive as a result of
that, because I knew that beingan armchair director that would
just sit on the surface wasanathema to me, given that I had
(15:18):
a rebreather certification atthe time.
So I remember telling myinstructor, ryan, not to take it
easy on me, and I told him whatI would be doing with Jill and
the rest of the gang in Mexico.
So I was not prepared for howbrutal the cave course is, but I
forced myself to get through itbecause I just knew that, a it
(15:42):
would better acquaint me withthe source material and B it
meant that I actually could bedown there with the other divers
and watch what was going on andmake sure that you know they
had their general on the frontlines with them.
Because I said to them look,I'm not letting you guys risk
your lives because of a stupidfilm that I want to do.
(16:05):
I'm coming down there with you.
Yeah, totally.
Brett Stanley (16:08):
But I mean, how does that?
If you didn't go down with them, how would you get the shots
that you wanted?
Is it just a matter of givingthe camera operators shot lists
and then just hoping that theyget?
Nays Baghai (16:19):
what you want.
That's a great question,because there were some days
that we had to shave down thecrew to only three people in the
water, simply because the caveswere too small to fit all six
of us.
So the way that we did that wasI would storyboard and shot,
list the shit out of it thenight before and we would meet
(16:40):
in the dive shed every morningand I would tell Yane, yane
Suhun, and shout out to Yane.
I would tell Yane what I had inmind for the scene, tonally and
technically in terms of like,okay, we need X amount of shots
to cover and this is what theyneed, and Yane would kind of
(17:00):
interpret it in his ownstoryboards and so that he under
he, he too was like fluentlyabsorbing it.
And we had jill, of course,there to, you know, corroborate
whether the scene was actuallytrue to what happened, as well
as also the local safety diversand guides who knew the caves to
(17:22):
say, okay, this part of thecave will work for this scene,
but let's not go to this part ofthe cave.
So there was actually one pointwhere it had to be a smaller
crew because we had someonewhose rebreather head
malfunctioned midway through theshoot.
So I said, well, my this cave'stoo small to fit all of us
(17:44):
anyway, so you take myrebreather and use that for the
shoot.
And I'm not going to lie to you,it was really torturous and
painful for me to not be in thewater and see what they were
doing, but it did allow me to,you know, edit the sequences on
the fly and spend more timereviewing the footage.
And, you know, edit thesequences on the flight and
(18:05):
spend more time reviewing thefootage.
And, you know, coming up withscratch edits, as we called them
, and coaching it.
But for the most part, I triedto be in the water when I could
to see how it was going and bethere to, you know, guide the
crew if they needed it.
Brett Stanley (18:24):
Oh yeah, totally.
So how many days was that thatyou weren't in the water with
them.
Nays Baghai (18:29):
I I'm afraid I can't remember the amount of dry
days for me, but I can't oneyeah, it had, it was, it was
more than one, but eventually II forced myself to just get
comfortable with it and justthink you know what this is, a a
team, you know effort and youjust got to do what you got to
(18:50):
do to get everyone else to thefinish line.
And you know, oh yeah, totallyFocus on the film.
Brett Stanley (18:59):
Yeah, I mean, were you like?
I kind of just picture you onthe surface, like you know,
walking back and forth and kindof wringing your hands like an
expected father.
Nays Baghai (19:07):
Yeah, well, or more , like I felt more like a heroin
addict, climbing the walls whenI wasn't in the water, yeah,
but yeah, I really I reallyenjoyed, like you know, being in
the caves actually, and becausefor the simple reason that it's
the closest I've ever gotten tofeeling like an astronaut on
Earth.
I know that's a line in thefilm, but it's the truth.
(19:29):
I mean, when you're diving on arebreather down there, it's
impossible not to feel likeyou're doing a spacewalk.
Brett Stanley (19:37):
Oh, no, totally.
I mean, the whole soundscapehas changed from diving, you
know, the constant stream ofbubbles, yeah, and the way you
float down there must be very.
The constant stream of bubbles,yeah, and the way you float
down there must be verydifferent as well because of the
closed circuit.
Nays Baghai (19:49):
Yeah, the buoyancy is so different to scuba, but in
many ways it's actually betterfor filming, because I don't
know if you've used a rebreatheryet, but, unlike scuba, your
buoyancy is not affected by yourbreathing.
So when you're hovering in themid-water column trying to get a
shot, it means that you canjust be much more stable and not
(20:13):
have to worry about whetheryour inhale or exhale will lift
you or sink you.
And I've been on scuba sincethat shoot and while I love it,
I'm just cursing myself for nothaving the rebreather at the
moment no, I know that.
Brett Stanley (20:28):
I know that kind of feeling like no, I haven't
done the rebreather stuff, but Ido every time I'm filming and
I'm on scuba.
I am so constantly aware of youknow what my breath is doing
and I'm kind of doing thingsthat are not typical for me in
terms of how I normally breathe,because I've got to try and
time it with the shot or thecamera movement and, yeah, are
(20:50):
we looking up and am I going tobreathe into my own shot?
You know it's such a.
Nays Baghai (20:54):
It's even so limiting it's even worse when
you're working with sharks.
I remember in the Galapagos, arogue school of hammerhead shark
showed up above me and I wasdesperately trying to not hold
my breath too long because Iknew that the bubbles would not
only scare them away but ruinthe shop.
(21:14):
And I'm just like holding it aslong as I can and then 12
seconds in, I let it go and thesharks have gone in a flash.
So that was one of thosemoments where I was just at the
time I didn't have my rereaderset, but that was a moment that
definitely pushed me to, youknow, think, man, I probably
should investigate it now.
(21:35):
Yeah.
Brett Stanley (21:37):
But I guess with that, especially when you're
cave diving because you're insuch a limited space and you
really don't want to be you know, sort of I guess you're fairly
linear in terms of your depthwhen you're in such a limited
space and you really don't wantto be you know, sort of I guess
you're fairly linear in terms ofyour depth when you're going
through a cave, for the mostpart.
So having the problem withbreathing is, you know you're
basically having to, you know,adjust your buoyancy or your
trim every time you breathe inand breathe out, because it's
(21:58):
going to push you up or down.
Yeah, as with the closedcircuit not so much.
Nays Baghai (22:02):
Yeah, Another advantage of the rebreathers
that I learned while we weredown there is that because it's
a closed circuit system, you'renot dislodging any silt from the
overhead part, so that meansthat it's just much cleaner and
clearer as a result of that.
I mean there were some dayswhere there were divers on open
(22:25):
circuit sidemount but amazingly,Jill had the cleanest footprint
for an open circuit sidemountdiver.
And also, her sac rate isamazing.
She could easily belt out agood two to three hours on side
mount and still not be worriedabout.
(22:47):
Like I, I have no idea how shedoes it, Whereas I'm a.
I'm a guzzler.
Brett Stanley (22:52):
Right, yeah, and just so, just for people
listening who don't know theside mount, just explain what
side mount is.
Nays Baghai (22:57):
Oh sorry, so side mount is, rather than when you
have one or two tanks on yourback, it's when you have one
tank on your left side, like aharness, and another on the
right side.
So it's really designed for forcave diving because of how it's
a more horizontal profile andit's it's flatter too, so it
(23:20):
means that you can, you know,squeeze into smaller places that
you otherwise wouldn't be ableto get into with a large tank on
your back.
Brett Stanley (23:30):
Yeah, so it kind of makes that kind of the caving
experience a lot more easier.
Yeah, and so when you're doingthese reenactments which is kind
of where it was right, like youknow Jill is narrating these
events in her life and you'regoing back and then filming
these reenactments, what wasthat like for you as a director
in terms of your vision of thatreenactment and kind of what
(23:52):
Jill's was?
Nays Baghai (23:53):
Were you guys on sort of the same page or was she
kind of like oh, you justinterpret it how you want to it
was actually really fun andpleasant doing the reenactments
with Jill and it was reallyharmonious, more than anything,
and we were really lucky, in theplaces in Mexico that we were
filming that a lot of the caveswere actually quite similar to
(24:16):
locations that were not asreadily accessible whether it
was, like you know, huatla inEastern Mexico or some caves in
Florida that we couldn't visit.
And because I had asked Jillwhat kind of details were in XYZ
cave, when she actually rockedup and I double checked it with
(24:37):
her, she was really positive andrelaxed about it and I think
but as far as, like the sceneconstruction went, she tapped
into it quite easily.
For someone who isn't really anactress and I think, but for me
as a director, I kind ofwrestled away that taboo voice
(25:03):
of like, oh, you shouldn't doreenactments, it disrupts the
authenticity.
I think the reason for me fordoing it was because the
alternative of just using photosor a talking head was not
really gonna do it justice froma cinematic perspective, whereas
bringing it to life with a filmscene was much more fun as a
(25:26):
challenge to bring it to lifeand there were, it was really.
It was a real challenge tryingto think about how to, you know,
place the camera in certainparts of the cave.
That also tapped into herpsychology of what she was
feeling at the time, cause weultimately wanted to tell a
(25:48):
character driven story but thereenactments were.
I think.
I think it's a thing with cavedivers is that we tend to be
drawn to challenges and makingthe impossible possible.
So, yeah, I mean storyboardingit and, you know, planning it
was really hard, but shooting itwas a whole different thing.
(26:10):
But I really owe a lot to thecrew that brought it to life.
I mean Yane and Rich Stevenson,the two guys who shot it, jill
on camera and Ari and Vincentwho are doing logistics and
watching the whole thing.
I mean it really is a teameffort.
So, as much as my ego wouldlove to take the credit for it,
(26:34):
I think the real, I really feellike that it's a team effort
more than anything.
Brett Stanley (26:41):
Well, I think that's true for Underwater in
general.
I mean, it's very hard to do alot of the stuff that we do
without a solid team.
Yeah, how did you find thesepeople?
How did you, how did you pullthis team together?
Was it people you'd worked withbefore?
Nays Baghai (26:54):
well, I actually hadn't worked with any of them
before, other than Jill, ofcourse.
But when you're looking for,you know cave diving
cinematographers who are masterrebreather divers and have an
eye for shooting and arecreative down there, that the
list gets shortened prettyquickly.
And yeah, the reason I pick Ihandpicked yanni in rich was
(27:19):
because for many, the probablythe biggest reason was what they
had done with the short filmdive odys, which they shot in
Oyama Mine in Finland, which notonly is beautifully shot on an
A7S II from a technicalperspective, but most
importantly it pays homage to alot of science fiction classics
(27:44):
Blade Runner, alien 2001, silentRunning, like you name it.
And that kind of tip of the hatto science fiction was what I
was looking for for a stylisticperspective, and it meant that
those guys really knew how tolight and shoot the scene in a
(28:06):
way that gave the film the rightlook that we were trying to
achieve, because the film doesallude to the parallels between
space exploration and caveexploration.
And yeah, I was.
I just knew that because yaneand Rich were, first and
foremost, technical divers andcave explorers first.
(28:29):
That meant that they werecompletely safe in the water and
could just flawlessly executethe, the shots.
Plus, they had worked together,which is a really imperative
thing.
Like you don't, the, it wouldhave been hell if they didn't
know each other and didn't likeeach other and didn't know how
to communicate.
(28:50):
But because they did have thatshared history, it meant that it
was very easy for them to notget in each other's way.
And, yeah, I, I can't, I, we.
It was a challenging shoot mind, but when I look at the footage
, I have nothing but positivethings to say about what they
(29:10):
came up with.
Brett Stanley (29:12):
Oh, no, totally, and so how does communication
work down there?
So if you're on a Bree breather, is it just with slates and
hand signals, or can you be onsome sort of comms system?
You?
Nays Baghai (29:24):
can do comms but there's a few risks involved to
it.
We ended up doing a high, amishmash of different
communication methods, like youcan kind of talk on a rebreather
, but it sounds like bane fromthe dark knight rises like right
because you're talking intoyour mouthpiece, right yeah,
like I'd be like, yeah, can youmove a little more to the left
and we can.
Just, I mean we could kind ofunderstand each other.
(29:46):
But I did keep a waterproofnotebook made by housey and in
my back pocket at all times.
So, yeah, I mostly use that forticking off shots, but I did
use it a lot for communicationand we did use like tactile
communication with the lightsand hand signals.
But honestly, a lot of it waspreparation that we did before,
(30:09):
like identifying what we wantedto do, where we were going to be
.
That kind of meant that weweren't faffing around in the
water as much.
So it's really.
I mean, you do have toimprovise a lot when you're down
there, but if you aren'tprepared when you show up to a
cave diving shoot, then it'sgoing to be a very nasty day in
(30:30):
the water.
Brett Stanley (30:31):
Oh no, totally, yeah, I think, yeah, yeah.
I can't even imagine what it'slike.
You know, because I'm not acave diver.
I've seen cave divers.
Caves freak me out.
The amount of equipment youhave to have just to go in there
safely freaks me out, let aloneall the mental and logistical
you know kind of gymnastics youhave to do to even make it kind
(30:53):
of safe.
Yeah, it's impressive and kindof mind blowing, but also
nothing I would ever want to domyself.
Nays Baghai (31:01):
Well, let me put it this way, I feel I actually
feel more relaxed in a cave thanI do in the middle of the open
ocean, where the currents andswells a bit dodgy, because it's
so protected and also it'seasier to get into the water for
some caves and yeah, and alsothere's no jellyfish or wayward
(31:22):
animals as well Like, andthere's no seasickness.
I mean, don't get me wrong, Ilove being in the ocean, but
when you're on the ocd side andyou're a little, you know, just
wanting it, wanting stability,sometimes it you can get a
little spoiled, shooting in acape or sinkhole well, I guess,
and I only just really kind ofthought of this then, is that it
(31:44):
, that the cave really is such acontrolled environment, apart
from, I guess, your own mentaland emotional state?
yeah, there are some caves wherethere is like a tidal, like a
flow going in and there iscurrent in there, but that's
mostly in Florida, whereas inMexico I didn't experience any
(32:04):
of that whatsoever right, yeah,and I guess even in, even in
florida, you know what you'regetting yourself into, you know
what those flows are like.
Brett Stanley (32:11):
It's not like it's suddenly reverse or
something, or well, at least youhope it doesn't.
Yeah right, true there are.
So I've spent a lot of time inin the florida spring.
Then I know a lot of peoplethere who who have done a lot of
those cave dives and, yeah,some of the stories from there
in terms of you know the waythose sinkholes kind of suck and
(32:31):
blow and all that sort of stuff, it's really quite interesting,
yeah.
Nays Baghai (32:37):
I mean.
The strange thing for me,though, was that, because I was
a newly minted cave diver at thetime, I reluctantly decided not
to shoot with a camera, simplybecause I wanted to just be
ultra safe and also focus ondirecting Yanni and Rich, but
because I wasn't operating thecamera.
(32:59):
Since that shoot, I'veconstantly had a real itch to
scratch in terms of taking myown camera down there, and
shooting something again LikeI'd still want to.
even after what we went throughin Mexico.
I still want to go back and doit again, I think and so there
is.
Brett Stanley (33:19):
I guess there is a, I mean for me personally.
I love camera operating.
I love moving the camera.
I'm happy to be told where tomove it to.
I'm happy to be told where tomove it to.
I'm happy to be told how toframe the shot, but seeing that
image move across my screen isso joyous, yeah, whereas I'm
sure there's some people who arelike no, I don't want to deal
with that, I just want to tellyou what to do.
Nays Baghai (33:41):
I mean it's yin and yang.
I mean, personally, I lovehaving a camera in my hands.
It's the same feeling that Ihave when I've got a guitar or a
bass guitar in my hands.
It's just like you're doingsomething that makes you feel
like a craftsman.
But all projects have differentcircumstances.
(34:07):
You know circumstances and somerequire you to do sacrifices,
so it it is a bit of a pain togive it up, but if there's
anyone that you want to let youwant to drive that that part,
then who better to to ask thanthe, the guys who ended up doing
(34:28):
it?
I I mean I mentioned yanni andrich, but also john shore, who
shot the new zealand sequencesunderwater.
I mean that was also reallyspecial for me because john was
my on and off mentor forunderwater cinematography for
many years.
So working working with him wasa really really nice full circle
(34:50):
moment.
Brett Stanley (34:51):
So that's really quite nice, being able to bring
people into projects like that,you know, kind of being able to
sort of pay it forward or tobring them in so they can
actually, you know, be part ofyour evolving.
Nays Baghai (35:03):
Yeah, I mean it can get interesting at times
because I spoke to you know,john and Yane and Rich and a few
other underwater DPs that I'veworked with, and they all told
me that it was a majoradjustment working for me, and
because of the fact that I'malso an underwater DP and I said
(35:24):
, well, isn't that what you wantas a DP?
Like, surely having a directorwho knows the intricacies of how
to you know cam up underwaterhelps you.
But they said well, sometimesyou can be too fluent and I'm
looking over at you thinking whydid you hire me?
(35:44):
You should be doing thisyourself.
But honestly, like I really,not only am I really proud of
what they came up with, but Ialso really liked how I kept
learning on the job and therewas never.
Even though I'm nearly at the8,000 hour mark with filmmaking,
(36:08):
I still feel like a Padawanlearner every day I get up.
Brett Stanley (36:13):
Well, I think you know, and from talking to
people like, a lot of the timethat doesn't go away, and I
think for a lot of us that'swhat we're craving.
Is that learning experienceevery time?
Yeah, it's a dopamine hit to acertain degree yeah, I think,
and it harkens back to thatproblem solving of.
Oh okay, this is a new puzzle,let's work out how to do this
(36:34):
one.
Nays Baghai (36:35):
I've not done this one before yeah, I think the
thing is is that when you lookback and think, god, I, I did
that, like I solved that problem, it's you're, it's.
I would much rather go throughthe worst shoot imaginable and
get some shots out of it, thenback out and not have anything
(36:56):
to show for it.
I think that, and alsoparticularly in New Zealand,
there was a real sense ofcamaraderie and it was, or as we
called, like a real kiwi spirit, where we were all, just like
you know, working as a unit andjust tackling whatever came at
us, no matter whether theproblem was big or small.
(37:19):
And it's you.
Brett Stanley (37:22):
You feel invincible when you're, you know
, just blitzing through, shot toshot and it's finally working
oh no, I mean, there's, there,is, there, is that I don't know
like I, I've always craved beingpart of a team.
You know, I used to watch the ateam when I was a kid and I was
just like, oh my god, you know,these guys have all got their
separate skill sets and they allwork together so perfectly.
Yeah, that's what I love ofbeing on a film set or, you know
(37:46):
, on a photography set, ofhaving skilled people who can do
their job and help to createthis massive, you know,
successful end result.
Nays Baghai (37:56):
A hundred percent.
You perfectly hit the nail onthe head there your earlier work
, which is Descent.
Brett Stanley (38:11):
How was that in terms of crew?
Nays Baghai (38:12):
and and and uh, the size of the production was it?
Was it a smaller?
Oh yeah, it was spoke.
It was nowhere as colossal asDiving Into the Darkness and I
mean, it was my first ever filmstraight out of university, so
it, um, it definitely pushed mein ways that I didn't expect,
but I mean, for starters, like Iwas, you know, directing,
(38:33):
writing, producing, shooting,editing and sound design, you
name it but it was, um, in manyways, like it was, it just felt
really fun to, you know, do itin, you know, my home office and
, you know, really learn as Iwas going and not really there
(38:55):
was pressure, of course, but itwasn't the same kind of pressure
as I felt on diving into thedarkness, having having already
done a feature, whereas inDescent I kind of felt like it
was more of a sandbox in a way.
Brett Stanley (39:13):
What do you mean by sandbox?
Like something that was for you.
You had to sort of work out howto make it.
Nays Baghai (39:18):
No, just like something that I could really
play around with and take risksand approach with a clean slate.
Brett Stanley (39:24):
Yeah, so you didn't have any preconceptions,
you didn't have any pre-madekind of methodology or anything.
You could just kind of wing ita little bit.
Nays Baghai (39:32):
Yeah, I mean, don't get me wrong, of course I had
expectations and dreams of whereI wanted the film to end up,
but really it was just.
I treated it as a vehicle forlearning the craft of feature
filmmaking, as opposed to shorts, cause I directed shorts before
and I had, you know, internedon feature films before, but I
(39:56):
had never directed a featuredocumentary before.
So it was really.
It was pardon this, this pun,it was diving into the darkness
for me.
Yeah, exactly.
Brett Stanley (40:09):
Yeah, that's beautifully brought back around
again.
Nice callback.
Nays Baghai (40:14):
Yeah, just got to improvise that one.
Brett Stanley (40:18):
So with your career in terms of so you
started off you wanted to be amarine biologist and then you
started to see, you know, camerawork and everything.
Was your idea to be a director,or did you sort of go through
wanting to be a DP first andthen?
Nays Baghai (40:34):
evolved.
Well, when I watched BluePlanet for the first time, I
also watched Star Wars at thesame time.
So there was definitely thatyin and yang of diving in film.
But, to answer your question, Ithink I always wanted to be a
director, but I wanted to be adirector who was involved in the
(40:54):
process.
As I said, like sitting in anarmchair and not doing anything,
not using a camera or editing,was heresy to me, like I
couldn't, you know, do that.
So I felt like that by the timeI got to film school, the goal
of being a director persisted.
(41:15):
But I do love being anunderwater DP and also a dry DP
as well, but I really like.
I guess part of the influencethat documentary filmmaking has
had on me is that I like to workwith a low footprint and
unencumbered by the constraintsof a big set where you've got
(41:37):
like a gaffer or a grip and allthese ACs and stuff that you
need to.
That can kind of lock you intowhat you're doing.
But when you're doing like awildlife shoot, the
cinematographer is kind of thedirector in a strange way.
So yeah, for me like it really.
(41:58):
It all depends on the project,but I think I'm a storyteller at
the end of the day.
So if directing is the means todo that, then then bring it no,
no, totally so.
Brett Stanley (42:11):
So, but coming out of film school you know you
said, descent was your first oneout of film school.
How did you, how did you createthat opportunity for yourselves
?
Nays Baghai (42:20):
in the final year of my time at film school I kind
of began to find my footing assomeone who wanted to tell
underwater stories.
So I kind of calibrated the lastassignments that I had in that
last year to really do the prepwork for Descent and start
(42:40):
thinking about who I am wantedto work with, where I wanted to
shoot it and how I wanted totell the story.
And really by the time Ifinished I had all the most of
the answers I was looking forand it became clear that doing
it through the you know,traditional studio method wasn't
(43:03):
feasible, partly because I wasa nobody and an unknown at the
time.
So of course I wouldn't havebeen able to do that.
But also I knew that there weresome EPs who just wanted to
mold it a particular way thatdidn't jive with what I had in
mind.
So I just said screw it, let'sdo an independent, find the
(43:24):
money from wherever we can anddo it.
And if I have to, you know,edit and direct pro bono in
order to make the film happen,then yeah, so be it.
But really, like there was theonly time I really like I only
had like barely had a break inbetween finishing film school
(43:46):
and going straight to Descent.
So it was like a shot out ofthe cannon pretty much, yeah.
Brett Stanley (43:52):
But so I mean, Descent is basically the story
of Kiki Bosch and her use ofcold water freediving as therapy
.
How did you get onto that story, Like, how did you?
Did you already know Kiki?
Nays Baghai (44:06):
I had seen a video of Kiki freediving in Iceland
and, having been to Silframyself, of course, I knew how
amazing it was that she could dothat.
But when I met her in person inLondon not long after that
video came out, by the way, andshe told me the full story of
what had happened to her and whyshe was doing it, that's when I
(44:29):
kind of had that push to wantto tell her story and, similarly
to Jill, I wanted her to bevery involved in the accuracy
and authenticity of the story.
And I think because it was sucha a really small production I
(44:50):
mean, we were all staying in thesame Airbnb and Arrow the
producer was also shooting inaddition to me so it just felt
like a family home video to acertain degree, but with extreme
underwater environments as thebackdrop.
Brett Stanley (45:08):
So yeah, was that ?
Was that film?
Did you film the entirety ofthat or did you?
Did you have footage from fromother sources?
Nays Baghai (45:16):
No, no, no, there were some DPs that did some
things that I couldn't tacklefor logistical reasons and a lot
of the film is contained stockstock archival footage from
Stefan Andrews, who was Kiki'spartner at the time and is a
brilliant underwater cameraman.
But yeah, I tried to shootwhere I could, but I didn't want
(45:41):
to compromise the film too muchby wearing too many hats, so
there were some scenes where Ilet another DP spin the wheel
for a change.
Brett Stanley (45:54):
Right, and so you had a small amount of, if you
say, archival footage.
Nays Baghai (46:00):
Yeah, it couldn't have been more than like 18,
maybe 20 minutes of archivalfootage.
It wasn't the whole film, yeahdid you?
Brett Stanley (46:09):
did you have that archival footage when you were
kind of storyboarding and youknew you kind of, okay, we can
fill the gaps with this stuff,but we're gonna need yeah, kind
of, yeah, because I yeah,because I think, with with
jill's, like she had such a,like a you know a treasure trove
of archival footage for you toplay with, was.
Is that a?
Is that something you getexcited about, or how does it
(46:32):
feel?
Nays Baghai (46:33):
I do, actually, because it's a fun challenge as
an editor to see how you canmake the footage more like, more
cinematic and you know what'sthe word more make it feel alive
.
For to a certain degree, yeah,but to be honest with you, like
going back to your questionabout the reenactments, because
(46:54):
so many of those scenes did notexist on film.
A lot of it came down to thattask of thinking about how you
could reshoot it from scratch.
But bring it really like youknow, use the language of cinema
, from the shot choices to thesound, to make it feel like you
(47:17):
were living the moment with herat the time.
Brett Stanley (47:19):
Yeah, and I've got to say you did that so well.
I watched the film on a plane.
I was coming back from NewJersey to LA, so I had it on my
phone and I was just watching it.
Nays Baghai (47:33):
I'm gonna kill you for watching it on your phone
like it deserves to be watchedon the big screen, not just
kidding no, I mean, I have likea.
Brett Stanley (47:40):
I have a 65 inch um screen in my house.
But because I wasn't there andI wanted to, I needed to watch
this film and I needed to kindof, you know, corner you into
this podcast.
That I'd be and I needed towatch this film, and I needed to
kind of corner you into thispodcast, that I just needed to
watch it.
So I was just like, all right,this flight is the best place to
do this.
And for me, I really quite likewatching things on small
screens in a plane, because mytunnel vision just makes it my
(48:04):
whole world, because the wholeplane is dark, so it doesn't
really matter so much.
But what I kind of found wasthat I'd be watching it and I'm
like I'm picturing you in mymind.
I'm like, okay, where's hegoing with this?
And I kind of know Jill's storyand there was parts of me that
were like, oh, here we go, thisis going to be tricky.
How's he going to handle it?
Oh, no, well, how's he going tohandle it?
(48:30):
Oh, no, well, no, that workedreally well.
So it was all these kind ofmoments where I was expecting
there to be a bit of a stumblejust because of you know how do
you tackle this, but you did itso smoothly and so seamlessly.
Nays Baghai (48:36):
Thank, you, it was just beautiful.
I really appreciate that a lot.
I mean, I remember showing thefilm to Harry Connick Jr, who I
met last year and became kind oflike a friend, and he told me
that when he watched the film itreminded him a lot of what he
(48:58):
does as a jazz musician on stage, in the sense of toying with
the audience and taking it in adirection that you think it's
going to go, and then doing ahairpin turn that ultimately
achieves the goal, but does itin a direction that you think
it's going to go, and then doinga hairpin turn that ultimately
achieves the goal, but does itin an unexpected, playful way.
And I hadn't really thought ofit that way.
But when I think about it nowI'm thinking how maybe I must
(49:23):
have absorbed that from eithersome movie that I watched as a
film student or even as amusician, just like playing
around on the guitar and playingsome notes.
That took it in a completelydifferent direction.
But yeah, it's, I really do tryto keep the audience in mind
(49:43):
when I'm editing something and Iremember having a post-it note
on my editing desk when I editit, saying if the audience does
not squirm or gasp in shock whenwatching XYZ sequences, you
failed, right, yeah.
Brett Stanley (50:01):
Well, I can tell you I may have embarrassed
myself a little on the plane,because I was.
I say full disclosure I'mhighly, highly claustrophobic.
Oh dear, yeah.
And the, the, the scenes underthe ice were giving me heart
palpitations.
So, yeah, well done on that one.
Nays Baghai (50:20):
I'm sorry to revel in your discomfort, but I'm very
relieved to hear that it didthe job.
Brett Stanley (50:29):
No, I mean it's mission accomplished and also it
was engaging the whole waythrough.
I mean kind of knowing thestory already.
I was kind of like, you know,because I've had Jill on the
podcast and we've kind of talkedabout a lot of that stuff, yeah
, but I was kind of expecting tokind of go yeah, let's move on.
But it flew really well and, asyou say it, kind of there were
(50:50):
things where I was like, oh, hehasn't touched on that bit, and
then then we would go back andtouch on that and I'd be like,
oh no, this is good like it was.
It was kind of like riding ayou know, it was like riding a
current.
It was just kind of just gowhere you take me and we'll just
see what happens I hadn'tthought of it that way, but I'll
.
I'll take that as a compliment,so thank you, yeah, yeah of
course, and now, the other thingas well that I really liked
about what you did was the.
(51:12):
A lot of the flashbacksequences were animated.
Yeah, what was the theinspiration behind that?
Nays Baghai (51:19):
Well, to be honest with you, it was really a
combination of a logistical anda creative decision.
I mean the logistics of goingback to the 70s and 90s and
finding an actress that lookslike her, getting the props,
getting the extras, thelocations, was just a pain in
(51:39):
the ass from a producer'sperspective.
And also, I felt like I had donereenactments with Descent
before showing Kiki as a youngergirl and a younger woman, and I
(52:01):
just had a gut feeling itwouldn't work, for Jill wanted,
uh, the challenge of not onlydoing something I hadn't done
before, but also using thelimitless nature of animation to
tell a story in a way that liveaction couldn't.
And yeah, um, it really it was.
(52:21):
Also another challenge that wefaced was trying to have that
right balance between, you know,feeling nostalgic but not rosy,
like a disney, pixar movie and,on the other hand, having grit
and maturity, but not too muchthat it felt like an out of
place batman graphic novel.
(52:43):
So trying to find the right or,as we called it, the the
goldilocks level of style forthe animation was not easy.
But the animators who were fromnorway, I think they they did a
really good job of pulling itoff and so how did you find them
?
Brett Stanley (53:00):
had you seen work of theirs before, or was it
just through the researchprocess you started found them?
Nays Baghai (53:05):
really through the research process I went through
about does like dozens ofyoutube and vimeo channels from
young, up-and-coming animationstudios that had the right kind
of style that I was after and Isaw a film that the norwegian
somnium animation studio, by theway that they had done and I
(53:27):
zoomed with them and asked themabout, you know, various
questions and they asked me afew questions and I pretty much
hired them on the spot afterthat.
Brett Stanley (53:37):
It was when it, when the movie went to the
animation sequences, there was alittle bit of it was like oh,
but then it was like this isfine, like this, this works,
like it wasn't.
It didn't take me out of themovie.
Nays Baghai (53:49):
Thank you.
I mean, I think the thing thatI was trying to keep in mind
like there's many movies whereyou can clearly tell that it's
just done to satiate thedirector's ego and I was really
trying to make a consciouseffort of you know what, forget
what I want or what I want toindulge in what's right for the
(54:13):
story and the overall pictureand, yeah, I talked to the other
people on the team and thatjust naturally came about as the
solution to utilize and yeah,it was very challenging Again,
like probably comparable to thecave sequences that we shot, but
(54:36):
at the end of the day, it was agood learning experience for me
as a director.
Brett Stanley (54:42):
Oh, no, totally.
I mean mixed media.
I think it must be hard whenyou have so many options.
Like you know, going throughall those Vimeos and through
those YouTubes, you must havefound so many things that you
were like, oh, I want to do that, but is that right for this one
?
Yeah.
Nays Baghai (54:56):
I just remember.
Do I bookmark that for later?
You know this on another on herown podcast.
But to get her likeness right,the animators asked her to take
literally like a hundreddifferent selfies of her facial
expressions, like look sad, lookangry, look happy.
(55:18):
And I also had jill send overall of her archival photographs
from her childhood to theanimators so that they could
just really tap into the detailsand bring it to life.
And there's a scene with theNational Geographic magazine
(55:40):
covers and the backgrounds andthose magazine covers that you
see were the actual magazinesthat Jill had as a kid.
Brett Stanley (55:49):
Oh right, so you managed to get photos of your
scandal.
Yeah, that's awesome.
I mean, having access to thatmuch collateral and that many
assets must have been a littlebit of like a kid in a candy
store.
Nays Baghai (56:03):
It was definitely a kid in the candy store moment
and it made all those torturousdays in the editing suite
completely worth it.
Yeah, that's great.
Brett Stanley (56:15):
So what's next, naze?
What is your?
Have you got anything coming upthat you can talk about?
Nays Baghai (56:19):
Yeah, I mean, there's dozens of stories that I
want to tell.
It's hard to say when it willhappen and also, I mean, the
industry is changing faster thanwe can, you know, keep up with
it.
So your guess is as good asmine is in terms of what will be
happening in terms of thefeature film industry.
There's a lot of other projectsthat I want to you know do that
(56:44):
are not feature film relatedand, as a, when we were making
this film, I just fell so inlove with technical diving and
cave diving that that's kind ofsomething that I want to keep
doing and, you know, tellstories with.
And, yeah, honestly, buthonestly, though, like it was
(57:05):
fairly tiring spending two years, you know, bringing diving into
the darkness to life.
So I would like to, you know,take a bit of and I'd really
love to, you know, do anunderwater science fiction film
(57:33):
similar to what you know, notidentical to what Yane and Rich
did, but something that kind ofcontinues that like to,
continues to bear the torchforward in terms of marrying
those two loves together.
Brett Stanley (57:46):
Oh, yeah, that sort of stuff is amazing.
Yeah, yeah, like bringing itback from the abyss, literally.
Nays Baghai (57:54):
Yeah, I mean, every time I put the rebreather on
and I look at the heads updisplay and hear the breathing
and the look at the also wearinga dry suit with the rebreather
it's it's begging to like, youknow, do it and like use it as a
prop in a science fiction suit.
So who knows what mymischievous director will come?
Brett Stanley (58:16):
up with in the next few years, absolutely so.
One last question and I didpose this to Jill and I have
posed it to a few other peoplebut would you go to space?
Hell, yeah, of course I'd go.
You don't find, because somepeople answer that where they're
like no, no, no, water is all Ineed.
Going to space is a wholedifferent beast, but for you
(58:37):
it's the same.
Nays Baghai (58:39):
Yeah.
Well, jill and I both have likean insatiable sense of
curiosity and a desire to seeknewness, so I think that I can't
speak for her, but for me.
I definitely love the challengeand the novelty of going into
(59:02):
space and I, yeah, I love thewater, don't get me wrong but
that I think that the little kidin me that watch, you know,
george Lucas, james Cameron andStanley Kubrick films would,
would scream with joy at theopportunity to do that.
That's great awesome Nays.
Brett Stanley (59:21):
This has been so good man.
Nays Baghai (59:22):
I loved hearing, hearing your story and and I'm
looking forward to seeing whatyou come up with soon thanks so
much, brett, and thank you somuch for having me on this
podcast, especially with all theroyalty that you've had before
me.
Brett Stanley (59:34):
It's totally.
Everyone fits right in man,Everyone's got a good story.
Everyone has a very differentoutlook on the same thing, so
it's always good.
Nays Baghai (59:43):
Yeah Thanks.
So much, man, yeah thanks somuch, man.
Brett Stanley (59:50):
Thanks for listening everyone and, as
always, if you like the podcast,please subscribe, review and
share.
If you'd like to support withthe production of these episodes
, you can purchase our very coolmerchandise at
theunderwaterpodcastcom.
We've got branded coffee mugs,stickers, beer cozies and
posters featuring our amazingillustration and logo by Joe
(01:00:10):
Hottono.
If you'd like to connect withus or learn more about our
guests, you can reach us attheunderwaterpodcastcom or on
Instagram.
We also have a Facebook groupwhere you can discuss the
episodes and even get yourquestions answered by our guests
.
There's a link to it in theshow notes.
Also, don't forget aboutWaterproof Magazine, showcasing
the best in underwater art.
(01:00:30):
Read it online or purchase aprint edition at
waterproofmagorg.
You can learn more about myunderwater photography workshops
and mentoring atbrettstanleycom or brettsphoto
on Instagram.
The Underwater Podcast ispresented and produced by me,
Brett Stanley, and our music isNeo by Oboi.
Keep creating, everyone.
(01:00:52):
I'll see you in the water.
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