Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:08):
Welcome to the
Underwater Podcast, where we
take a deep dive into the worldof underwater portrait
photography, cinematography andeverything in between with your
host, Brett Stanley Stanley.
(00:32):
Welcome back to the UnderwaterPodcast, and this time I'm
talking with underwater fine artphotographer, Lexi Lane.
Lexi's work is beautiful andpainterly and mostly shot in the
clear waters of the ocean,which adds a level of difficulty
for her as she lives in England, not a land known for its
visibility, so she travels theworld in search of perfect
locations to shoot in.
We talk about her approach tophotographing in the ocean
around Europe, freediving, thecenotes of Mexico, and what she
(00:55):
likes about selling her work atart shows.
Also, a little disclaimer onthis episode, as the audio isn't
the best, so apologies if it'sa little hard to listen to.
Okay, let's dive in.
Lexi.
Welcome to the UnderwaterPodcast.
Speaker 2 (01:15):
Thank you.
Thank you very much.
It's lovely to speak to you,bro.
Speaker 1 (01:18):
Yeah, you too.
I know we kind of met recentlyat the other art fair here in LA
, which was really nice.
How was that art fair for you?
Speaker 2 (01:27):
It was great.
Yeah, I really enjoyed it.
It's fast becoming one of myfavorite fairs to attend and
exhibit at.
It's, yeah, run by really nicepeople, and I've been doing one
of the fairs that they organizein London for a few years now.
So, yeah, I thought I would trygoing over the pond and seeing
(01:47):
what the american market is likefor selling underwater artwork
yeah and so.
Speaker 1 (01:52):
So what's it like?
How would they have it done?
Speaker 2 (01:54):
yeah, really good.
Yeah, I really like um.
I like how people in la arevery, very friendly and they
really like to talk about art,and I think the Brits can be a
little bit more reservedoccasionally.
So, yeah, I really like that.
It's a very welcoming andfriendly place.
Speaker 1 (02:13):
I think that's so
because I'm not American,
obviously, but I mean I actuallyam actually because I just
became a citizen yesterday.
Speaker 2 (02:20):
Oh, did you?
Congratulations.
Speaker 1 (02:22):
Yeah, thanks.
So I've got to stop saying I'mnot american because I am.
So in terms of the markets,though, for um, for fine art
photography, what would you sayis the differences between uk
and and america?
Speaker 2 (02:35):
I don't see a huge
difference really.
I think both markets I mean, Ihave very limited experience in
the us, but both markets seem tobe very accepting and
interested in underwaterphotography or photography
generally and limited editionprints.
Speaker 1 (02:53):
I found that I have a
lot of collectors in the US and
in the UK and Australia as well, actually, yeah, do they tend
to be people that have alreadycollected other underwater art,
or are they coming in from a,from a certain sort of
demographic?
How are people sort of findingyou?
Speaker 2 (03:12):
I don't think so.
I think the thing I hear moreoften than not is that people
haven't seen any kind of worklike mine before.
So yeah, it's not necessarilypeople that seek out underwater
photography specifically, justpeople who are into art
generally and and do they?
Speaker 1 (03:31):
what do they think
when they see your work for the
first time, are they?
What are they kind of pickingup on?
Speaker 2 (03:36):
oh, it's a good
question.
It's a hard one.
I mean, I I do ask, ask peoplethat when I exhibit exhibitions.
But I think it's kind of likewhat I hope to achieve with my
work is to gain some kind ofemotional response, I suppose,
to my work, and I think peoplewho you know choose to buy my
(03:58):
work.
They tend to have some kind ofreaction, hopefully a positive
one.
But I do get.
Do you get the odd, uh, the oddperson at fairs?
That's the great thing aboutshowing your work.
It's kind of like you put your,put your heart out there, I
suppose, and you get goodreactions.
And you get all reactions, youget real reactions, which is
(04:19):
quite good feedback I thinkthat's so.
Speaker 1 (04:21):
so I'd never really
been to an art fair before, and
I came to the other art fair inLA here and what I found was I
was drawn to work that I hadn'teven thought about, like the.
You know the style of things.
I'd just be walking around andbe like oh wow, okay, I never
even thought about beinginterested in that, but it's
really caught my eye.
So you must get a lot of thatof people sort of coming and
(04:43):
just sort of discovering you.
Speaker 2 (04:45):
Yeah, for sure.
I think that's one of thebenefits of showing at these
things, because the art fairthemselves, as organisers, will
have huge mailing lists andcontacts, and so they get a
large amount of people throughthe doors, people who you
wouldn't have an opportunity toput your work in front of
otherwise.
Get a large amount of peoplethrough the doors, people who
you wouldn't have an opportunityto put your work in front of
(05:06):
otherwise.
So you've got like a captiveaudience and, yeah, it's a
really helpful way of gettingyour work out there.
Speaker 1 (05:15):
Yeah, and how
important do you think with
those sorts of things is beingapproachable and being with your
work?
Do you feel like yourpersonality kind of helps people
to sort of fall in love withyour work?
Do you feel like yourpersonality kind of helps people
to to sort of fall in love withthe work more?
Speaker 2 (05:27):
I hope so.
Yeah, well, I think, you know,I think, when, when we, when we
make underwater photographs,there's so much we can talk
about, like how, how they'remade and stories behind each
shoot, and people find thatengaging.
You know, I think I've got alot of friends who are artists
and some who find it easiertalking about their artwork.
(05:50):
You know, from every discipline, like painting, sculpture, you
know, and I think, with withwhat we do, it's it's so much
easier to talk about becausethere are just straight away.
Speaker 1 (06:01):
You can, you know,
say that you're a free diver and
you know your models are freedivers too, and immediately
people find it quite fascinatingyeah, people are kind of drawn
to the whole like the, theactual creation of the image,
right like, rather than the, theend result on its own yeah,
both.
Speaker 2 (06:19):
I think, absolutely.
I think if somebody is, as yousaid when you were walking
around the fair, if you wereimmediately drawn to something,
then you know hearing thebackstory behind it.
It's just like icing on thecake yeah, totally.
Speaker 1 (06:33):
Um.
So, and then kind of talkingabout backstory, so how did you
end up shooting underwater?
Speaker 2 (06:40):
oh, that's a long
story.
That's's probably very similarto how a lot of us get into it.
I started off as a water babyas a child, you know, snorkeling
and diving down and picking upshells and being obsessed with
the water from a very young ageand at the same time being
(07:02):
obsessed with art and they weremy two kind of like favourite
things when I was growing up.
So when I went to university Istudied fine art and quickly
ended up specialising inphotography and concentrated on
kind of like figurativephotography, photographing women
back then as well.
Not much has changed and when Igraduated I realized that to
(07:27):
survive and thrive as an artistwould be challenging and I ended
up working as a commercialphotographer above water
photography for 20 years.
I suppose that's showing my age.
Speaker 1 (07:42):
All right, yep.
Speaker 2 (07:44):
And then I think,
maybe like 15 years into doing
that, I I started thinking aboutdoing underwater photography as
a way of combining my passionstogether and doing it as like a
little side project to what Iwas doing work-wise, in a way to
keep me inspired and have somework that was just for me,
(08:07):
without a client and without abrief, you know, yeah, so yeah,
that's how it started and thatwas I.
First I bought my first housingfor a digital camera, I think
probably about 10 years ago now.
Okay, um, and it started as ahobby and it it was way back
when Instagram was really easyto gain an organic following and
(08:31):
I got people asking me prettyquickly if they could buy prints
of my work, and it started fromthere, I suppose.
Speaker 1 (08:40):
So what was the type
of work you were doing
commercially?
Speaker 2 (08:43):
Portraiture, mainly
wedding photography, yeah,
anything that was people-based.
Speaker 1 (08:49):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (08:50):
Always liked working
with people.
Speaker 1 (08:52):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So when you jumped underwater,did you kind of try and did you
have a style like an above-waterstyle that you were kind of
like I want to try and recreatethis underwater, or was it like
a fresh start for you?
Speaker 2 (09:05):
I think I had an
aesthetic that I that I enjoyed.
You know, that kind of thegolden hour light that is even
more spectacular underwater.
That sort of, yeah, using lightin a way that adds some kind of
drama to an image.
Speaker 1 (09:22):
Yeah, it's something
that I was drawn to above water
and, yeah, underwater it blew,blew my little brain away how
amazing light can behaveunderwater yeah, yeah, it's like
its own um its own set ofbrushes, really, isn't it like
it's its own little toolbox justbeing under the water
(09:42):
definitely you have such a sucha specific sort of colour
palette as well, especially inthe work that I've seen most
recently, which is the beautifulgreens and the warm colours in
there.
Was that something that you hadalways sort of leant towards,
or was that something you kindof evolved over time?
Speaker 2 (10:00):
I think my work has.
My underwater work has alwaysbeen quite warm, I think because
of the way you know the colourspectrum works and how red tones
, warm tones, disappear soquickly underwater, I've always
liked to edit my images in a waythat you know brings back skin
tones so that they are morenatural, and in doing so it can
(10:22):
make the the you know,surrounding area seem a little
less natural.
But I quite like that.
I quite like the fact that itcan make the images seem a bit
more surreal, I suppose yeah, Imean it definitely works and
that's something that I'vereally liked as well.
Speaker 1 (10:39):
Like within my work
is trying to to get away from
the common underwater palette alittle bit.
And another photographer that Iwas speaking to recently,
Alison Bounce, who's a Frenchphotographer, and she was saying
that when she got intounderwater she wanted to get as
much blue out of the images aspossible.
Speaker 2 (10:58):
Yeah, I mean, my
first underwater camera that I
had was a Nikonis camera.
I can hear your dog now.
Yeah, um yeah, I had a nikonisum like 35 mil film camera um
back in the god early noughtiesand you used to be able to get
(11:20):
like a red filter that you'dscrew onto the front and that
was to like counteract theblueness of the water yeah kind
of do these things digitally.
Speaker 1 (11:28):
Now I suppose some
people still use red filters
yeah, it's interesting, I kindof uh for me, just because I
shoot raw all the time and youknow, I kind of I like not
having to put anything in frontof the camera and kind of do it
all in post.
But so when you started youwere shooting film.
Speaker 2 (11:43):
Yeah, yeah when I was
, when I was at art school, I I
learned everything on film blackand white mainly, I've started
making some, some new workrecently which is black and
white, actually underwater workwhich is black and white, and
it's kind of taking me back tomy youth.
It's quite nice, still digital,though I'd like to uh, I'd like
(12:04):
to get back into doing some35mm film stuff underwater.
I think it could be quite fun.
Speaker 1 (12:12):
Do you still have
that camera?
Speaker 2 (12:15):
I sold it actually,
but I recently acquired I
recently bought another one oneBay exactly the same as I had
back then.
Speaker 1 (12:22):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (12:24):
And I discovered last
time I was in la that the only
the only person that specializesin servicing the necronis
cameras is actually based in la,so that's quite handy.
Speaker 1 (12:35):
All right, replace
all of the rubber bits which, um
yeah, perish over time,especially when the camera is
made in 1980s yeah, no, I mean,I've kind of looked into getting
one of those because, you know,because I work a lot with
strobes and those nikonoscameras had a little sync port,
so I'm actually kind of reallyinterested in being able to
(12:57):
shoot film and strobes um, theykind of shoot my style, but on
film it's something I've wantedto do.
I haven't gotten around to, butyeah.
Speaker 2 (13:05):
That sounds cool.
I'd like to see that.
Speaker 1 (13:07):
Yeah, was there a
certain film stock when you were
shooting on that camera thatyou kind of liked the most?
Speaker 2 (13:15):
I used to like Ilford
film, black and white Ilford.
I haven't kind of looked intowhat is available when it comes
to colour film.
I remember I used to reallyenjoy shooting slide film way
back then but it's, yeah, what'savailable these days.
It's also, travelling withthese things is quite
challenging, because they've gotthese really intense scanners
(13:39):
now at airports, so kind of likehow you shoot film when you're
travelling to destinations.
And bringing the film backwithout it being destroyed in
the scanners is something that Ineed to figure out as well.
Speaker 1 (13:51):
Yeah, totally.
I remember once this wasprobably 10, 15 years ago being
at the airport I can't rememberwhich airport, but there was
someone who was on their way tolike Antarctica or something for
six months and he had sixmonths' worth of film with him.
Wow, like antarctic or somethingfor six months and he had six
months worth of film with himand they made him un, you know,
take everything out of out ofevery container, and so it was a
crazy.
(14:11):
We were there for ages waitingfor for this all to go through
the x-ray and everything, andthen he had to put it all back
in again and then hope that itall all, this film, was still
okay wow, it's a risk, isn't it,when you spend months and
months shooting without knowingthat it's gonna, you know, come
to anything, it's oh yeah,without even being able to see
it.
(14:32):
You know, yeah, at least withdigital you can kind of look at
it and go, okay, well, this isgood.
You know, yeah, well, let's goout again tomorrow or the
opposite.
Speaker 2 (14:42):
That was, that was
shit.
Speaker 1 (14:43):
I need to redo all of
that yes, exactly yeah but at
least you know within minuteswhether you were terrible or not
.
You know like it's.
Well, that's a good question.
So do you, do you find it mucheasier to work with with digital
, or do you think you would?
You would do this as a job?
Uh, if you're still shootingfilm.
Speaker 2 (15:03):
I don't know.
I don't know.
I'd like to be able to do bothand compare.
I can't imagine ever giving updigital, just because, as you
said, the results are soimmediate and you can see
straight away, and to me it'spart of the creative process.
You're underwater, you shootsomething and you look at the
(15:24):
back of your camera and justsomething that happened in that
shot triggers an idea.
You can spend the rest of theshoot just trying to explore
that particular thing.
That's something that you don'thave at all with with film.
So, yeah, there's definitelybenefits.
Speaker 1 (15:39):
Yeah, no, and that
that's a really good point,
actually.
And something that I lovebecause I do shoot with strobes
is the strobes don't always gooff and I'll find different
lighting setups through errors,so that backlight didn't go off,
but wow, look at this kind ofeffect.
I didn't even think about doingthis.
Speaker 2 (15:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (16:01):
So that chaos of
being able to see what is
happening straight away and thenpivoting your approach, I think
is really, really important.
Speaker 2 (16:09):
Yeah, definitely,
with how many variables and
things to think about shootingunderwater, it's definitely
helpful.
Speaker 1 (16:18):
Yeah, there's a lot
going on, which kind of brings
me to your how do you workunderwater?
Are you, are you using scuba?
Are you just on free dive?
What's your sort of process?
Speaker 2 (16:32):
um, yeah, just free
diving.
I say just free diving.
It's uh, yeah, I was a scubadiver before I took up free
diving, but it was around thesame time that I started doing
underwater photography that Ijoined my local freediving club
here in the UK.
It's, um, yeah, it's afantastic club called no Tanks
I'm going to give a shout out tothat um.
(16:56):
And I quickly realized as soonas I started shooting underwater
that, in order to get better atit, it would be better if I
could hold my breath for longer.
So that's why I joined my cluband, you know, discovered a
incredible sport in the process,which I do for, you know, pure
pleasure, as well as, um,helping my, my career yeah, yeah
(17:19):
, totally, and so so you're,you're in the south of England
yes, I'm like maybe 50 milessouth of London and that's a
little city called Brighton onthe English Channel coast, on
the sea.
The sea is not very nice here,sadly.
(17:40):
I definitely couldn't shoot inopen water here, because the
visibility is shocking.
You'd be lucky to see your handin the water right in front of
your face.
Speaker 1 (17:52):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:52):
So how does that go?
Speaker 1 (17:53):
for you just training
freediving and stuff.
Is that where you're training,just out off the coast there?
Speaker 2 (18:00):
We train in pools
twice a week doing dynamic
freediving, so lengthsunderwater and lots of fun
activities and breathingexercises and yeah, and then our
club goes off on amazing tripsaround the world and to lakes in
the UK as well, to work ondepth stuff.
Speaker 1 (18:21):
Oh right, yeah, Are
there lakes in the UK that you
would shoot in that are clearenough?
Speaker 2 (18:27):
no, they're not clear
either yeah, right, yeah I've
made it really difficult formyself living here, but yeah I
love traveling, so it's all goodyeah, I tend to my.
my year is quite cyclical inthat I have sort of periods
where I'm in my studio editing,producing, and then I'll have a
period where I'm exhibiting andselling and then I have periods
(18:50):
where I go off shooting.
So I quite like the varietythat that brings.
Yeah, if I lived somewhere likewhere I really like shooting, I
don't know whether it wouldbecome just so kind of like
available and on my doorstepthat I might not appreciate it
as much.
Speaker 1 (19:09):
maybe I don't know
yeah, but I mean that's a good
point, because I've spoken tophotographers who live in like
like on the east coast of thestates, who who can't shoot, you
know, for sort of six, eightmonths of the year because it's
too cold, but they spend thattime, you know, conceiving and
kind of planning and schemingfor the next time they get to
(19:29):
shoot.
And I kind of like the idea ofthat, where you can kind of like
have some downtime and reallyplan some stuff.
Speaker 2 (19:38):
Yeah, definitely, it
gives you a lot of thinking time
.
I've got a constant, like youknow, like notes in your iPhone.
It's just titled underwaterideas, and whenever something
pops into my head when I'mdriving or not sleeping, then
I'll, yeah, look back at thatlist, usually a month or two
before the trip, and startgathering what I might need to
(20:06):
be able to, you know, work onsome of those ideas.
Speaker 1 (20:10):
Are there places that
you sort of go to all the time
to sort of shoot?
Have you got your sort offavourite destinations or are
you kind of like just spreadingyourself all over in different
places?
Speaker 2 (20:19):
I'd like to spread
myself more.
Speaker 1 (20:22):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:22):
I'd like to travel to
you know places that are
unknown.
The problem with doing that isthat obviously they're so
unknown that you spend a lot ofthe time doing recce missions
and you know kind of exploring,and I love that part of doing
the underwater photography inopen water.
Speaker 1 (20:40):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:40):
But the only problem
with that is that obviously you
don't get as much work done inthe you know set time that you
have on the trip, and at the endof the day, the work that I do
is my career, and so I need tothink about how much like
successful images I'll have bythe end of a trip and what I can
(21:02):
take away and hopefully sell.
so, um, yeah, so for that reasonI do tend to go back to um
mexico quite a lot, because thesonates are just reliable and
beautiful, yeah, and then myaesthetic, so yeah, that I go
there a lot.
And then in the summer in theUK I will go to the
(21:26):
Mediterranean, because the waterthere is really clear as well.
It's a little bit morechallenging being open water
ocean, yeah, sediment and windand tides and waves and all of
that stuff.
But I think when you get reallykind of like perfect conditions
(21:52):
, magical kind of lights andeverything like that, then it
pays off.
Speaker 1 (21:57):
So yeah, Well, that's
my kind of feeling as well.
Is that, um, you know, I I loveshooting in my, my studio pool.
It's all very contained, it'sall very controllable, but I do
love the sort of the unexpectedbeauty and the chaos of of the
open water side of things, whereyou know you might get a
(22:17):
certain ray of light comingthrough or there might be, you
know, the amazing landscapes andstuff.
It just makes it all so muchworthwhile getting out there and
kind of making the effort.
Speaker 2 (22:26):
Yeah, I mean 90% of
the time it doesn't necessarily
come together, but for the timesit does, I think it's worth it.
I think for me and in my work,like the natural environment is
kind of key to what I do, and soI haven't I don't think I've
ever done any underwater shootsin a pool.
Speaker 1 (22:50):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (22:51):
Actually, when I
first bought my very first
digital underwater camerahousing, I did.
I did a test shoot in a pool.
Speaker 1 (23:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (23:00):
But yeah, it's just
kind of I like natural light, I
like I like natural rockformations.
Yeah, I think my work is aboutkind of celebrating the beauty
of our beautiful oceans, reallyso I don't know totally.
Speaker 1 (23:15):
Yeah, and you have
such a uh, an organic aesthetic,
even, you know, even down tothe, the poses and the, the
costumes that the, the modelsare wearing, it's all very, um,
it seems all very organic.
Good, that was what you'regoing for.
Speaker 2 (23:32):
I hope oh, definitely
, yeah, absolutely um.
Speaker 1 (23:39):
Do you ever shoot
with with male models?
Speaker 2 (23:42):
I have once or twice,
but not in recent years.
I think I do get asked that alot, actually, when I exhibit my
work.
It's always a question.
Well, it's often a questionthat people ask is um, why is it
just women?
yeah, I think I think the reasonis when I first started taking
(24:02):
photographs of women underwater,it was like I guess I saw it
was always like a single femalein the water, and I guess it was
like a representation of how Ifeel when I'm in the water and
trying to represent that kind oflike sensation that I
experience.
And so they're kind of likeself-portraits in one way, I
(24:25):
guess.
Yeah, you know if I looked thatgraceful in the water.
People also ask me if any of mywork are self-portraits.
I'm like no.
Speaker 1 (24:33):
Have you ever gotten
in front of a camera?
Speaker 2 (24:37):
No, no, I've got a
couple of models that I work
with, a couple of, really, thatI work with, a couple of, um,
really wonderful cornish models.
They're, yeah, amazing mermaidsthat come on trips with me one
is laura evans and one is emmaharper and they're both, yeah,
very inspiring people to workwith and they both joke with me
(24:59):
that they're going to put me ina dress and see how it feels
yeah it'd be very embarrassing,I think are you just totally,
totally adverse to it, like it's, just like it would never
happen no, no, not at all Iwould.
I probably should experiencewhat they experience, but I know
, from having having put on amermaid tail for fun.
(25:22):
I know the sensation of watershooting up my nose is not my
favourite thing, so I know thatfacially I won't look
particularly good underwaterQuite contorted probably.
I have no idea how they do it.
I think that skill of beingable to look so serene with with
all of that going on and notbeing able to see fully, I think
(25:45):
it's just incredible what theydo.
Speaker 1 (25:46):
oh absolutely yeah,
and it's something that I think,
as photographers, we we kind offorget, we take for granted as
to you know all the what they'reactually going through to get
these shots and it's somethingthat I teach in my workshops is
I will actually take all myphotographers and get them to
take their mask off and be infront of the camera and I get
them to pose and do all thethings that we're asking our
(26:07):
models to do.
That's great, so we can get anidea of how it feels.
You know, yeah, it can bepainful or it can be fine.
You know everyone's different.
Speaker 2 (26:15):
Yeah, do you put like
guys in dresses, because that
would be quite funny to see, ifin dresses, because that would
be quite funny to see if they'reup for it.
Speaker 1 (26:24):
Yeah, for sure, for
in the end, yeah, love it.
Yeah, I mean I really are up forit yeah, I mean, some of them
are just like, yeah, I totallywant to do this, and others are
just like no, thank you, like Ijust you know.
Oh, I'm just doing this to getthrough the course.
So it's interesting.
You know, we all have ourdifferent reasons for why we
shoot and what we shoot.
Yes, indeed, so with your work,is there a message or a theme
(26:48):
or anything you're trying to getthrough with your work, or is
it just literally kind ofcreating beautiful imagery?
Is there any?
Speaker 2 (26:57):
kind of purpose
behind it.
Yeah, purpose, yeah.
What is the purpose of art?
That is a good question ifthat's not insulting, yeah no,
no, that's not an insult at all.
It's a good question, I think.
Yeah, definitely.
Um, as I was saying, that likemy images started off as being
like a kind of representation ofme and how I feel in in the, I
(27:20):
suppose, and especially thiskind of mysterious underwater
world.
But the more time that I'vespent in the oceans, the more
time that I've seen the humaneffect on the oceans, it's
bringing more and more the ideasinto my work, which kind of is
perhaps a comment on how we needto take care of the oceans
(27:42):
better.
As you know, us as humans, usas a race, you know, look after
the water better and the marinelife.
And I am always trying to sortof think of ways that I can
express those ideas, likewhether they are quite obvious
expressions, um, like gettinghuge sheets of plastic in the
(28:07):
water with models or slightlymore subtle messages that you
know I feel when I'm creatingthem, but might not necessarily
be immediately obvious to theviewer.
Speaker 1 (28:18):
I quite like kind of
playing with that balance, I
guess like a little ambiguity inin terms of, yeah, not being
blatant with the, with themessage yeah, definitely.
Speaker 2 (28:30):
I mean, I think some
of my, some of my most
successful artworks, from a kindof sales point of view, are
pieces that that that makecomments about how we mistreat
the oceans and people when theysee the image initially, when
the viewer sees the imageinitially at fairs and
(28:52):
exhibitions, I think their firstreactions can often be like oh,
that's really beautiful.
And then when you kind ofexplain the underlying message,
they're like well's, yeah,that's really clear.
I don't know why I didn't seethat, but people still choose to
purchase pieces of artwork inspite or because of that.
(29:13):
You know, it's not like some.
I guess I was worried when Istarted making artwork that made
these statements that it wouldcome across as either judgy or
so dark and miserable.
Right, that people might notwant to have that kind of thing
on their walls.
But you know, I think with anykind of artwork it there's,
(29:33):
there's a niche in everythingand and if your artwork connects
with somebody, then then that'sall that matters really.
If it speaks to somebody, thenyou find your buyers.
Speaker 1 (29:47):
Oh, totally yeah, and
I think also is that it might
speak to them in a way that youhadn't intended.
That's true, absolutely, and Ithink we had this conversation
when we met at the art fair wasshould you tell people what,
what is the meaning behind yourpicture, or should you just let
them make it up for themselves?
Speaker 2 (30:09):
I did both, I think.
I think I judge it by howpeople are reacting.
If they, if they're asking lotsof questions, then I will tell
them, but sometimes, sometimespeople are like I don't care
what it's about, I just love ityeah, yeah, exactly, yeah it's
like fine, I'll take your moneyand that's the thing too, is
(30:31):
that it's just.
Speaker 1 (30:32):
You know, people
might not be aware of why it
speaks to them.
They just like it.
You know they might not have a,you know, a full essay in their
mind of of what this actuallymeans, but if an image strikes
something in them, then that'senough right yeah, I mean that's
, um, I'd buy a lot of art,probably too much for the size
of my house and my budget.
Speaker 2 (30:54):
Yeah, I'm, yeah, I'm
an art collector myself and yeah
, it's definitely like ifsomething speaks to me, then it
can sometimes take me a while towork out why it does, and
sometimes I'll never figure itout, but yeah, that's the beauty
of art, I suppose you knowexactly.
Speaker 1 (31:09):
I mean, you went to
school, you went and studied art
and they kind of did they teachyou how to interpret art and
all that sort of stuff I guess.
Speaker 2 (31:18):
So, yeah, I mean, the
course that I did was was very
concept driven and they taught alot more about theory and
concept behind art than they didactual skills on how to make it
yeah right which which is, um,you know, I I wasn't quite
prepared for at the time.
I thought that I was going to begoing on a you know do a degree
(31:41):
and I'd be a beautiful painterby the end of it, right, but
that wasn't the case, because Iactually stopped painting pretty
quickly and went intoprintmaking and photography,
right?
Um, I quite like the immediacyof of those two mediums, but,
yeah, I think, but it's so longago now yeah, yeah, totally not
(32:06):
sure if I can remember anythingthat I was taught but I mean
that that's that's.
Speaker 1 (32:11):
That's the kind of
the point of learning, right.
You kind of absorb it, itbecomes part of you and then
maybe it informs something lateron and maybe it doesn't.
You know you kind of you get topick and choose the parts that
you want to keep and when youuse the parts that you want to
use yeah, definitely and that'ssomething that I I find with art
is, you know, I I speak toartists who are very sort of
(32:34):
purpose and concept driven,where they come up with a, a
meaning or a concept they wantto get across and they build the
art around that, whereas I'msomeone who just likes, I'm so
visual that it doesn't reallycome to me until after I've
created the artwork.
Speaker 2 (32:50):
Really, that
surprises me, that really
surprises me.
I thought your work is veryconcept driven.
No, not really, you always haveso many props and outfits and
it always seems so, like youknow thought out.
Speaker 1 (33:04):
Yeah right, yeah, I
mean a lot of it, I think.
Well, in terms of the buildingof the environment, I think
that's thought out because Ineed to work out how to build
the damn thing, but in terms ofa message for the image, I tend
to almost literally just throw awhole bunch of crap in the pool
and then take photos of it.
Speaker 2 (33:22):
Great, Great yeah.
I think you're selling yourselfshort there.
Speaker 1 (33:28):
Well, I mean, that's
my process.
It might not look like that atthe end, and you know it's the
same with anything withphotography.
Like you know, you see thisbeautiful shot, but you know you
can see the model half you knowdrowning and snot coming out of
their face before the, you knowbefore and after that amazing
image you shot.
So and that's something I loveabout photography is that it is
(33:49):
just a slice of time.
Speaker 2 (33:50):
You know, it doesn't
matter what came before or after
yeah, I always say, if I comeaway from a shoot, if I'm in the
water for like two hours, if Iget one image that I'm really
pleased with, then I'm happywith that oh no, I'm the same.
Speaker 1 (34:05):
Yeah, yeah.
As long as you come away withat least one thing, I think it's
a job well done yeah, I guessit depends what kind of shoot
you're doing.
Speaker 2 (34:14):
I mean, do you do a
lot, of, a lot of like
commercial shoots where you havea client that's paying?
Speaker 1 (34:18):
I have done a few of
those.
It's not a not a huge part ofmy business, but but yeah, that
is a little more serious.
I guess you have to come awaywith each concept.
Speaker 2 (34:30):
The expectations are
higher.
Speaker 1 (34:32):
Yes, but I think with
those sorts of shoots, though,
there's a lot morepre-production in there, you
kind of have a lot more.
Hopefully you have a lot moretime to kind of know exactly
what you're trying to do and howto get each, each kind of
concept in each, each image,sure yeah, do you do a lot of
that.
Speaker 2 (34:50):
I was about to say I
steer well away from that right,
yeah I do, I do the occasionalcommercial shoot, but it's like,
yeah, once a year maximumreally.
Um, yeah, because I used to dothat for a living before this.
This kind of like branch intothis form of photography and
fine art photography for me waslike an opportunity not to, yeah
(35:14):
, have a client and a brief andto be working on other people's
ideas.
This is an opportunity for meto explore my own, I suppose.
So I really I really enjoy theplayfulness and not having
having to produce anything, andthat's when I I think that's
when I work best is when I getto make mistakes and and learn
(35:38):
from them and then no one's sortof watching over your shoulder
yeah, basically definitelycorrect me if I'm wrong, but I
would assume that if someone'scome to you with a something you
know commercial job, it'sbecause they want you to do your
thing right you'd like to thinkthat, wouldn't you?
yeah, right, that's the dream,yeah yeah, yeah yeah, I mean you
(36:00):
do get clients like that.
They're like we think your workis incredible and we want you
to do your thing.
You've got complete creativefreedom but, yeah, there's still
the pressure of like you know,when you actually really kind of
quiz them on it, they're likewhy should we need this shot
from this shot and this shot?
And it's like, as soon as I'mgiven a shopping list, it any
kind of like ability to go offon a tangent and explore an idea
(36:25):
when you're in the water justyeah, it goes out the window.
You'd be like, right, done that.
Now on to the next thing, andit's, yes, a checklist yeah, and
I guess you know that's.
Speaker 1 (36:33):
You know, the whole
idea of an art director, I guess
, is to sort of, you know,constrain you a little bit and
keep you on task, which is, asan artist, is probably not what
you particularly need no or wantno yeah, and so where, like, do
you ever do commissions forpeople?
Do you have people?
Have people like privateclients who come and want to be
in your photos?
Speaker 2 (36:54):
Yeah, quite regularly
people ask me that, but
normally when I tell them theprice that I charge for it, they
change their mind.
Speaker 1 (37:02):
Right, yeah, and is
that priced, in that way to kind
of make them change their mind?
Speaker 2 (37:07):
I guess, so maybe a
little bit them change their
mind, I guess, so maybe a littlebit.
But also like if they wentahead with it, then it would be
an amount of money that I'd be,like you know, really happy with
devoting a week of my timeworking with that person and
training them to the point thatI'd get successful images out of
them, because I think it's not.
It's not as easy as people thinkit's going to be, as you well
(37:32):
know.
No, yes, People are like, oh,I'm really good in the water,
and then you know when they'reactually, when I'm demanding
things of them, they're like oh,this is really hard, isn't it?
Yeah, yes, it is.
Speaker 1 (37:48):
Yeah, you might be
great in the water.
You might be wonderful atswimming from one end of the
pool to the other, but this isnot that.
Speaker 2 (37:55):
No, it's different.
Speaker 1 (37:57):
Yeah, so how do you
approach that in terms of new
models that you're working with?
Speaker 2 (38:02):
I work with the same
models all the time.
I find people that I have aconnection with you know that
get me and get my ideas and andare, you know, very uniquely
talented.
I do occasionally shoot, um,like complete new people, and I
(38:22):
visit different destinationsjust to sort of, yeah, try them
out, I suppose, and I've enjoyedworking with a few people that
have only had the opportunitywith you know shooting with once
or twice and they kind of go onmy list of people that I'd like
to work with again but, when itcomes to planning big trips
where I stay in a destinationfor like a month, for example, I
(38:43):
will take my my favorite peoplewith me.
so I've got that guaranteed alot of the time.
If I'm visiting like Mexico,for example, I've got that
guaranteed A lot of the time.
If I'm visiting like Mexico,for example, I've got a couple
of friends who live there whoare just brilliant, brilliant
underwater models.
But you know, they have a lifeand they have jobs and when I
visit a destination they can'tdrop everything to shoot with me
(39:03):
at dusk and dawn every singleday.
So I take models with me andpay them to be there with me.
So it's and it's also kind oflike, you know, when they're
trained free divers and they'repeople that are, you know, very
skilled in that side of thingsas well Like I can have one
model that I'm shooting whilstthe other one does safetying and
(39:28):
then they can swap over andstuff.
Speaker 1 (39:31):
Yeah, that's good.
So you've kind of got yourlittle your crew with you yes
yes, and so so are you justpurely natural lighting?
Do you ever use any, any kindof extra lighting?
Speaker 2 (39:44):
very rarely.
Um, I've got a couple ofunderwater constant lights, um,
yeah, which I sometimes use formore, for playful kind of long
exposure stuff, okay, um, butyeah, 99 at the time.
It's natural light, so it'skind of relying on the sun being
in the right place and the youknow in relation to where the
(40:07):
rocks are and, yeah, it makesthings more challenging but I
think, more special when it doesall come together.
Speaker 1 (40:16):
Yeah, no, totally
that thing, when those god rays
sort of pop through and you know, and maybe the light hits
someone just perfectly, which isnot something you can ever
recreate.
Speaker 2 (40:28):
No, I think that's
what I really love about the
sonatas in mexico is the.
The light beams that you getthere can be just yeah, unreal.
Yeah, I think it looks likesort of cathedral lighting, you
know, light shining in throughwindows and it's just light
shining in through like thejungle canopy, but that's the
(40:49):
kind of exciting light that Ilook for I think so.
Speaker 1 (40:53):
So I'm obsessed by
the cenotes and I think what,
what happens in them, when, interms of the lighting and the
landscape, is what I am tryingto do in my swimming pool a lot
of the time, yeah, um, you knowthis controlled, you know, maybe
it's a beam of light that'scoming through, maybe someone's
isolated in that.
You know beautiful landscapeunderneath and the first time I
(41:15):
was in cenotes I was kind oflike, oh okay, shit well this is
, this is where it's at.
Speaker 2 (41:21):
Yeah, okay, yeah,
well, that's amazing if you can,
if you can recreate that in anykind of way, that's just.
That's, yeah, very exciting.
Speaker 1 (41:29):
Well, yeah, I mean
that's the problem, very
exciting.
Well, yeah, I mean, that's theproblem.
I'm not recreating it, it's allvery you know it only exists
down there.
You know that quality of lightand you know those sort of
landscapes and such a controlledyou know it's not open water,
there's no tides, there's noreal currents or anything.
It's really quite perfect downthere.
Speaker 2 (41:51):
It is currents or
anything.
It's, um no, it's really quiteperfect down there it is.
It is.
I'm currently planning my nexttrip, for I'm hoping to spend
all of january there in the nextyear.
Speaker 1 (41:59):
Oh, nice, do you do
much um video work?
Speaker 2 (42:02):
no, in a nutshell,
I'd like to do more video.
My mind isn't very good atthinking in that dimension, kind
of like I've.
I've done a little bit sort oflike very short little clips
that I can edit together to makesomething that's quite moving.
I suppose I think video andmusic together can be really
(42:26):
special.
I'd like to do more of that,yeah, but I always I always
spend two hours on a shoot justmaking the most of that light
while it looks like that andthen by the time I think, or
maybe I should do some video buteither the light's gone or
we're exhausted or cold, or yeahyeah, I need to dedicate some
time where I'm just like okay,I'm not allowed to take any
(42:48):
stills, this whole shoot isdedicated to stills only.
Speaker 1 (42:53):
Sorry movies only.
Yeah, I'm kind of the same way.
I mean, I do shoot a lot ofvideo in my work, but I do have
to basically take my stillsbrain out and then put my video
brain in, because it's a wholedifferent set of skills and
muscle memory.
Speaker 2 (43:10):
Yeah, I can't switch
back and forth, that's for sure.
Speaker 1 (43:13):
No, it's really hard.
I always forget something whenI'm shooting video and then I
kind of ruin the whole thing.
But yeah, like you, I do lovemotion and music together, and
you know so I shoot a lot ofmusic videos Nice.
But it is kind of trying totake what I do in a still photo
and then make it into a movingthing.
Yeah, it's not the other wayaround for me.
Speaker 2 (43:35):
Yeah, yeah, I'd be
the same for sure.
Speaker 1 (43:38):
So what would you say
?
Is your best shoot?
Is there one that sort ofsprings to mind?
Or you're just like this wasthe day that everything worked
really well.
Speaker 2 (43:47):
No, I should have had
something prepared for this.
Speaker 1 (43:53):
uh, best shoot best
location, or you know definitely
best location.
Speaker 2 (44:00):
There's one
particular cenote in mexico
which is just like insanelighting, which I I went there
um last year, year before lastand there's one particular time
of year where it is more clearthan any other time, for some
reason I have no idea why,something to do with the jungle,
(44:25):
canopy and what drops into thewater.
I think I don't know, but itwas just like.
I think it's maybe 25 metersdeep and you could see directly
to the bottom, and it's maybeabout 25 meters wide as well,
like a big circular pool in themiddle of the jungle yeah and
just like shooting on thatparticular day when visibility
(44:47):
was insane, and I did a littledive down to the bottom and I
just looked up and I could seeall of the walls, these sort of
sheer cliffs around the outsideof the cenote, and I could see
the surface.
Andiza, the smaller islandcalled Formentera, and I've been
(45:14):
going there since I was.
Actually the first time I wentthere I was in my mother's tummy
.
Speaker 1 (45:20):
Oh nice, I was in an
embryo.
Speaker 2 (45:22):
So I think that
particular place is very close
to my heart and there's an areaof that island where there's
like cliffs that you have toscramble down to get into the
water.
But when you do, there's like aquite a sheer drop into the
water and so you get depthreally, really quickly.
You don't have to go out on aboat, you don't have to swim too
(45:43):
far, you've got depth and andthe water there can be just like
gin clear, you know um, yeahyeah, so when that is perfect
and there aren't any jellyfishand or sediment in the water.
Um then that can be really ideal, but that's like getting up at
(46:04):
5 am to to be in the water whenthe sun rises is my favorite
thing to do yeah, so is thatyour favorite in terms of, like
you emotionally prefer to be inthe water at sort of sunrise or
sort of photography-wise as well?
Emotionally?
Definitely not, I'm not awarming person.
Speaker 1 (46:22):
Right, yeah.
Speaker 2 (46:24):
It's the only thing I
will get out of bed that early
for is.
Yeah, for a photo shoot.
Yeah, I think probably one.
One of my like favoriteexamples of a shoot in that
particular location was I did ashoot last summer with a
parachute skirt that I boughtthis parachute on eBay and it
was like a 1973 vintage silkparachute and I spent days
(46:48):
before the trip kind of likehand sewing it so it'd be
perfect, kind of like waistdimensions for my models to wear
and put some velcro in the sideso they could just like rip it
off and swim out if it was toochallenging to swim in.
Um, and, yeah, the day that wedecided to shoot with it, that's
when all of the conditions werejust exquisite, you know, just
(47:09):
really, really perfect.
So, yeah, that definitelysticks in my mind as one of
those kind of gasping underwaterwhen you're taking images.
That kind of feeling is prettyspecial.
Speaker 1 (47:21):
Yeah, I think yeah,
when you can hear yourself, when
you can hear someone screamingunderwater with glee, and then
you realise it's yourself.
Yeah, I do that a lot, I quitelike it.
So, convers, conversely, whatis your?
Speaker 2 (47:35):
worst day?
Um, I don't think.
I don't think they exist, Ithink I think I find sometimes I
find conditions verychallenging and that puts me in
a really bad mood.
If I'm like on location andjust waiting for days and days
for what?
The weather to pass, I meanthat is the worst day.
The worst day is not being ableto get in.
But if things are challenging,that's when I sometimes make
(48:00):
like my best work.
I think, yeah, if I'm, if Ifind things like limitations on,
okay, I can't shoot in the wayI normally would that that has
in the past produced resultswhich I, you know, wouldn't have
thought of doing and thereforehas produced, yeah, good work, I
(48:20):
think.
So I like challenges, I like itwhen things are thrown up and
made difficult, because it justmakes me just approach it from a
different way I feel like thatif you weren't someone who did
well with challenges, youprobably wouldn't shoot
underwater for very long.
Everything about this ischallenging absolutely, yeah,
(48:43):
yeah, you've got to be able toum accept, you know, losses,
defeats, yeah, things aren'tgreat.
Speaker 1 (48:49):
It makes the, you
know, I mean defeats.
Speaker 2 (48:50):
Yeah, things aren't
great.
It makes the you know.
I mean, it's like lifegenerally, isn't it Like the
highs wouldn't be quite so sweetif you know you didn't have
some pretty terrible moments aswell.
Speaker 1 (49:04):
Yeah, exactly, yeah,
yeah, the lows do kind of
highlight the highs a little bit.
What about inspiration?
Do kind of highlight the highsa little bit.
What about inspiration?
Like, are you seeing work inthe sort of art world, whether
it's paintings or sculpture orany of that sort of stuff, like
what kind of makes yourimagination go crazy?
Speaker 2 (49:23):
Oh, that's a good
question.
Yeah, I'm definitely drawn toart generally and, like you know
, drawn to to art generally and,like you know, I filled my
house with art and and I think,yeah, different, different
photographers and paintersdefinitely inspire me from an
aesthetic point of view and Idon't, um, yeah, I think,
(49:45):
probably more painting thanphotography, which is probably
because of my background, Iguess, going to art school, but
I I love the idea of, um, makingphotography seem more painterly
.
I think that's something that alot of people say when they see
me at exhibitions.
They say is this photography?
(50:05):
And it's like I actually have asign on my wall now like vinyl
lettering that says underwaterphotography.
Because, yes, so many peoplesaying is this, is this a
painting?
Like no, that's right, what doyou?
want, yeah, yeah it could bewhatever you want, but no.
So yeah, I love the idea thatyou can kind of like be playful
(50:27):
and creative with photographyand experimental and blur
boundaries and break rules, likeI think I spent all of my
commercial photography lifetrying to make very, you know,
kind of technically correctimages that would please people.
From that perspective, andbecoming an artist is is just so
(50:49):
liberating that you can.
You can break rules and youknow, you do get some, like you
know, purist photographersapproach you at exhibitions and
say, oh, why have you done this?
Like I wouldn't have done that,and I'm like, well, exactly,
that's exactly why I've done itexactly, and that's why it's my
(51:09):
work on the walls, not yours.
Speaker 1 (51:11):
Yes, yeah, I mean
your work definitely does have
that sort of look to it.
It does have that verypainterly kind of aesthetic.
So you know, I can definitelysee why people are getting
confused.
So before we wrap it up, isthere?
Speaker 2 (51:29):
advice you would give
to someone who wants to get
into the underwater fine artworld Advice, advice.
Speaker 1 (51:34):
I thought you said
vice.
Speaker 2 (51:34):
It's like what vice
do you have?
That's right.
Don't drink as much coffee asme, because that doesn't help
with your heart rate whenfreediving?
Speaker 1 (51:43):
Yeah, totally.
Speaker 2 (51:44):
That's a terrible
vice.
Speaker 1 (51:45):
Yeah, so yeah.
What advice around all vicescan you suggest to someone?
Speaker 2 (51:51):
Gosh, that's a good
question.
I would say it sounds reallyobvious.
But, like, just get out thereand practice as much as possible
.
Like I know, the biggestquestion that I'm asked from
people who want to give it a tryis, like what camera should I
get?
And I honestly think that youknow, if you've got a camera
that has some kind of manualcontrol so you can control, you
(52:11):
know if you've got a camera thathas some kind of manual control
so you can control, you knowthe the aperture and shutter
speeds, then it doesn't matterwhether you're spending hundreds
of pounds or thousands ofpounds, because it's in the eye
of what you choose to do with it, rather than like having the
best possible camera in theworld.
Yeah, In my opinion, I don'tknow I started off with like a
(52:38):
well, it's a 35mm film camerathat was very hit and miss yeah.
Definitely, out of a roll of 36photos I would get zero good
results, right, yeah, but youknow it kind it started me off
on my journey.
But you know, just like, evengetting a cover for your iphone,
iphone's incredible these days.
(52:59):
You can, oh, absolutely achievethings like that.
Obviously, you can't go toodeep with those, although, um,
do our techs.
Do you like one that you can goto depth with?
Speaker 1 (53:09):
yeah, they do.
I can't remember what the depthis on that, but yeah, it can go
fairly deep.
And then there are otherhousings that are basically dive
housings for the iPhone, so youcan take them to 100 feet if
you want to.
Yeah, wow, but yeah, I mean,that's my kind of ethos as well
is that it's not the cost of thecamera it's whether it does
(53:34):
what you need it to do.
Speaker 2 (53:35):
Yeah, definitely, I
mean I I'd say gopros are
incredible for starting out, butthe thing that I find
frustrating with my gopro is nothaving the ability to really
kind of control all of the um.
You know, all of the functionsthat I'd like to no like yeah, I
tend.
I tend to underexpose slightlybecause the dynamic range is
(53:56):
just so incredible.
With the Sony that I use Iunderexpose so I don't ever kind
of like lose.
You know, don't blow highlightsand you can bring back shadows
really, really nicely with theSony cameras.
I found Well.
Speaker 1 (54:11):
So that actually is a
really good point, because I
was trying to reverse engineeryour work to sort of see how you
had done some of these things,and you're saying that you don't
use any external lights.
I was just like, wow, she mustjust really get such amazing
files to start with, like youmust have just very good files
to be able to work within post,to be able to to get the detail
(54:33):
that you have oh, yeah, I thinkthe camera system that I use is
just incredible.
Speaker 2 (54:38):
I made the switch
from canon to sony back in 2018
and that was just like totalgame changer.
I mean, I was shooting on adslr with the system, so I can't
comment on how their mirrorlesssystems are.
I think that's you know.
I think swapping from a DSLR toa mirrorless was really, yeah,
(55:03):
just vital to be able to shootthrough the rear screen rather
than having to use theviewfinder, and that made a
really big difference.
But my camera is, yeah, fiveyears old now, I think, and it's
.
It produces really nice filesizes and, yeah, the the dynamic
(55:23):
range is brilliant.
The focusing system with thesony's are is insane.
So if I you know, if I'mintending for the subject to be
in focus, then it gets it infocus every single time right
yeah, I say that because, youknow, sometimes my images are
intentionally blurred yeah, yeah, you do it is intentional focus
(55:45):
from it yeah, no
Speaker 1 (55:47):
it's not just a
mistake, I promise well, you
know, even if it is a a mistake,at least you're using it and
owning it.
It's great.
Speaker 2 (55:54):
Owning it, yeah, yeah
.
Speaker 1 (55:56):
Well, that's awesome.
Speaker 2 (55:57):
Well.
Speaker 1 (55:57):
Alexi, this has been
really great.
Thank you so much for agreeingto come on and sort of share
your story.
It's been amazing.
Speaker 2 (56:04):
Oh, thank you.
Yeah, I feel like I've justbeen rambling on, but yeah, it's
been.
It's been really lovely to chatto you, for sure yeah, yeah.
And rambling on is exactly whatthis show's all about, for I
could easily ramble on foranother hour or two, but that
would that would probably getboring maybe we'll come back in
a year or so and then and uh,we'll do it again revisit.
Speaker 1 (56:25):
Yeah, yeah,
absolutely that would be great,
awesome.
Well, thanks very much oh,you're welcome.
Thanks, brett thanks forlistening everyone and, as
always, if you like the podcast,please subscribe, review and
share.
If you'd like to support withthe production of these episodes
, you can purchase our very coolmerchandise at
(56:47):
theunderwaterpodcastcom.
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If you'd like to connect withus or learn more about our
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We also have a Facebook groupwhere you can discuss the
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(57:08):
.
There's a link to it in theshow notes.
Also, don't forget aboutWaterproof Magazine, showcasing
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Read it online or purchase aprint edition at
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You can learn more about myunderwater photography workshops
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on Instagram.
(57:29):
The Underwater Podcast ispresented and produced by me,
brett Stanley, and our music isNeo by Oboi.
Keep creating, everyone.
I'll see you in the water.