Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to Season 4
of the Undetected Narcissist
Podcast.
Your host, angela Meyer, ishere to bring you clarity if you
are stuck in confusion,self-doubt or feel lost, without
a sense of direction.
This podcast is extremelydifferent because Angela comes
from a place of wisdom,compassion and has been able to
forgive the unforgivable.
(00:22):
She's a mental healthprofessional, trauma-informed
human consciousness guide andempowerment strategist.
She knows one can't truly healand recover when one is stuck in
hate, anger and fear.
One must rise above it, findmeaning, understanding,
compassion for oneself and thetoxic people within our lives.
(00:45):
This season is aboutself-empowerment,
self-realizations andtransformation.
There is always a blog postsupporting this information, so
please visitundetectednarcissistcom so get
ready to learn about yourself,others and find a way to truly
live and thrive.
(01:06):
Once again, enjoy the show.
Speaker 2 (01:09):
Hello Obi-Wan and
welcome back to another episode
of the Undetected Narcissist.
Today I'm going to bediscussing misconceptions of
love.
Earlier today I was speaking toa young man about the
misconceptions of love, andearlier today I was speaking to
a young man about themisconceptions of love.
He still struggles with theconcept that there are many
(01:30):
different layers and levels oflove.
People get so caught up in thismisconception of what love
means to them that love can lookas if it's black and white.
It does not represent freedomand it of course has conditions.
Yet the love I know and followis limitless and unconditional.
(01:52):
There are moments when I usemyself many times as examples to
get my point across.
I let this young man know that,even though I still love a
specific family memberdifferently, I have just learned
to set healthy boundaries withthem and no longer allow their
personality traits to trigger oroffend me.
(02:13):
I can stay neutral and stilllove them because I have zero
expectations, conditions orattachments.
Some people might still beconfused, but I'm describing the
evolution of love fromego-bound expectation to
soul-level freedom.
(02:33):
It's a deeply importantteaching that some people can
grasp and others cannot.
Like this young man, manypeople are still learning to
distinguish between conditionallove, which seeks to possess or
control, and unconditional love,which liberates and transforms
(02:54):
Love and Infatuation.
Since this is a podcast aboutnarcissism and toxic people, I
need to unpack limerence,infatuation and love.
I need to unpack limerence,infatuation and love.
Most of us have neverexperienced healthy love because
the narcissist or toxic personknows how to trap us easily with
(03:14):
addicted love.
Limerence and love are bothpowerful and intense.
Falling in love can seem like apowerful emotional roller
coaster experience that oftenintertwines and confuses us.
Sometimes we can second guessor ask ourselves is this really
(03:35):
love?
Is this genuine or fake?
Am I being love bombed again?
Can you see the confusion?
We think or believe we are in ahealthy romantic relationship,
yet still don't fully comprehendthe difference between love and
infatuation.
Romantic obsessions candisguise themselves as passion,
(03:58):
when in fact it is limerence indisguise.
So let's unpack this subject togive everyone a better
understanding, so we will notfall into another trap and give
up on finding love again.
Limerence versus love.
Have you ever met someone andimmediately began to feel this
intense, obsessive infatuationtowards the other person?
(04:22):
You can't stop thinking aboutthem.
You might have intrusivethoughts, you start to fantasize
about this person and have anintense longing for them.
Some people can even begin toidolize this complete stranger.
Or has anyone done this to you?
It can either be creepy orflattering.
(04:44):
Either way, it's not healthy.
Love is the complete opposite,because genuine love tends to
build over time and it is a slowburn.
Limerence is the exact opposite.
It is sudden, smoldering, hot,all-consuming and can trigger
(05:04):
all your good and bad buttons.
We can even lose our sense ofself because we are so
hyper-fixed on this person.
Celebrities often experiencelimericks.
When they meet someone likethey say oh I'm your favorite
fan.
In the past I've spoken aboutattachment styles and how
(05:26):
important having a secureattachment in a relationship is,
so important Research has beenable to track the origin of
limerence to unmet emotionalneeds and unresolved childhood
trauma.
For example, if you grew up ina home with inconsistent or
emotionally distant caregivers,you can develop a heightened
(05:47):
desire for connection withanother person.
You seek and crave this intenseemotional dependency to be
loved.
As you grow from a teenagerinto an adult, you seek what you
never got growing up.
But limerence is not love butinfatuation.
If you recall, I addressed thisconcept in the blog post and
(06:10):
podcast about why people cheat.
A person struggling withlimerence will seek validation
and fulfillment through anintense attachment to another
person's life.
I will be transparent here.
I think all teenagers strugglewith limerence.
Some people grow out of it andothers do not.
(06:30):
Our environment and culture canalso play a significant role as
well.
Therefore, I want to share thetwo sides of limerence versus
love.
First, I will unpack limerenceSigns and characteristics of
limerence Intrusive thoughts andidealizing caries.
(06:50):
Intense, obsessive infatuation.
The person cannot do anythingwrong and you idolize them.
You could be manipulated intodoing things outside your
comfort zone to please andappease this person.
Next one you are overwhelminglypreoccupied with and
fantasizing about this person.
(07:12):
You will not be satisfied untilyou have them completely.
It is like a craving that cannever be fully satisfied until
the other person submits orgives in.
Next one the obsessed person canfall into the trap of needing
to control the other personsubmits or gives in.
The obsessed person can fallinto the trap of needing to
control the other person,manipulating them, engaging in
(07:32):
power dynamic struggles andhaving unrealistic expectations.
For example, one guy who was sointo me and thought I would be
moving into his place next monthI was like that's never going
to happen.
But he was such a firm believer, oh yes, it's gonna.
No, it never did.
On to the next.
(07:53):
There is a tendency to idolizethe other person while
disregarding their flaws andnegative traits.
When this happens, you can getblindsided easily when reality
kicks you to the curb.
Next, the pattern of limerencecan be short-lived and may fade
once the initial infatuationwanes, especially if the need
(08:17):
for validation andself-fulfillment has been
achieved.
For example, once the obsessedperson gets you into bed, they
turn around and ghost you.
Next, one Limerous is associatedwith heightened emotional
volatility.
This means their feelings areextreme and hard to control.
The person can burst intoyelling, crying or acting out
(08:42):
because they do not know how tomanage or control their emotions
.
Their emotions feel too big tohandle, which can be extremely
scary on the receiving end.
Next, there can be mistrust,jealousy, insecurities, and the
other person can be dishonest.
Next one the person can have ananxious attachment style or a
(09:03):
disorganized attachment style.
Next, infatuation is abouttaking, not giving.
It is immediate and quick,which burns out quickly.
Next, the person is selfish andlooks after their interests.
They are building a surfacerelationship, not a deep and
(09:24):
caring relationship.
Next, the relationship is basedon a physical attraction and
less on truly forming anemotional relationship with you.
And the last one.
The intense focus on the objectof affection can lead to neglect
and other vital areas of one'slife, such as work, friendships,
(09:44):
family and personal andprofessional goals.
This tunnel vision can resultin a sense of imbalance and a
loss of self-identity.
Others can see the dramaticchanges in you, but you cannot
recognize the unhealthy changeswithin yourself Signs and
characteristics of genuine loveand affection.
(10:05):
Love is about giving and taking.
Some people have a hard timetaking and receiving love after
experiencing narcissistic abuse.
Why we question if it is real.
That is why we should take ourtime to see if it's fake or for
real.
Being love-bombed felt great,but it creates this fear around
(10:32):
the aspect of falling in loveagain.
Love is slow.
It's a slow fire that buildsand burns over time.
Each person shows concern forthe other, respects boundaries
and can be vulnerable and honest.
You feel safe and secure withthis person.
They foster trust and show acommitment towards one another.
(10:53):
Love is stable and genuine.
The person can show genuinecare, empathy and stability.
Love is full of mutual respect,emotional intimacy and kindness
.
With love, there is a genuineemotional connection.
Love is open-hearted.
(11:13):
With genuine love, one canshare experiences without
judgment or shame.
Love makes you feel 100% safe.
Love makes you feel 100% safe.
Genuine love allows you to bevulnerable and know you are safe
and secure.
This person is here to supportyou, not leave you.
When life gets difficult, lovewill agree to disagree.
(11:36):
Love accepts everyone'sdifferences and opinions on
various subject matters.
Love allows freedom.
Love is not jealous, demanding,rigid or controlling.
Your partner can spend timewith friends and family, with or
without you, and vice versa.
There are no guilt trip gamesor interrogations before and
(11:59):
after.
There is respect and trust.
Love allows personal space.
Some people need more personalspace than others.
Love respects and honors thetime a person needs for their
mental, emotional and spiritualwell-being.
Love compromises when work getsdemanding.
(12:20):
Love is understanding andpatient.
Love lets you be your authenticself.
This is one of my favorites.
If you cannot be genuine aroundthe person you love, you are
missing out on all the crazy,fun aspects of life.
Here are some bold and wildtruths.
We all pass gas and some fartsdo not smell like roses.
(12:42):
When I laugh, sometimes I snort.
My mom would sneeze and fart atthe same time.
I love to dance, sing in my car, talk to animals and start
conversations with strangers.
Some people will think I amstrange, but I don't care.
My husband finds me fascinating.
He would never do those things,but he loves me for it, so you
(13:06):
shouldn't care either.
Be wild, silly, youradventurous self.
And last one love is consistent.
When you are sick, you loseyour job or get into a
disagreement, genuine love isstill consistent.
You could be barfing in thetoilet and your partner still
(13:26):
loves you unconditionally.
We've all been there.
Well, hopefully and hopefullynot, partner still loves you
unconditionally.
So both limerits and loveinvolve intense emotions.
We all want to be desired andto feel attraction for the other
person.
Both can bring excitement,passion and a sense of
connection.
(13:46):
It is just learning torecognize the signs, because
both stem from a desire foremotional closeness and intimacy
.
The problem is that one personis seen as an object of
affection and the other is seenas an object to conquer and
possess.
Both can influence behaviors ina positive and unhealthy manner
(14:12):
.
Limerence is primarily fueled bythe desire for validation and
the need to alleviate internalinsecurities.
It is the complete opposite ofgenuine emotional intimacy and
connection.
Opposite of genuine emotionalintimacy and connection.
Now, if you recall in theepisode about why people cheat,
(14:39):
I discussed adrenaline junkies.
When someone has experiencedlimerence, the brain will
release a surge ofneurotransmitters, including
dopamine and serotonin.
These chemicals create theeuphoric feeling.
This euphoric feeling issimilar to the rush of a drug,
which can be highly addictivebecause it is about conquest.
(15:01):
That is why, when someone is inthe cycle of obsession and
longing for another, thisaddictive, false sense of love
can be challenging to break freefrom.
Your body and brain areaddicted to the high more than
the person.
You are infatuated with theMany Facets of Love.
(15:22):
Now that we have unpackedlimerence, some might still
wonder about love's many facets.
I like to think of it as theyin and the yang, with all the
intense infatuations masked aslove.
People can still be confusedbecause love is multifaceted,
emotional, encompassing variousexperiences and behaviors.
(15:47):
We can and do love the peoplein our lives differently.
We can love a person and stillnot like their actions, lack of
actions, personality, behaviorsor beliefs.
This is common when familydynamics are involved.
Over the years, as a mentalhealth professional, I've
(16:09):
realized with age that love canbe classified into different
types, such as romantic love,which is passion, attraction and
a desire for physical andemotional closeness.
There's family love, which canbring about a sense of
responsibility, care and supportfor one another.
(16:29):
Responsibility, care andsupport for one another.
There's love for a partner orspouse, your grandparents or
relative, love for a child, lovefor a toy or personal object,
love of your parents or yoursiblings.
There's platonic love.
There's love for an animal,love for a friend, love for
(16:49):
music, cooking, sports, hobbies,love for mother earth, love for
a co-worker, a teacher, lovefor religion or spiritual
enlightenment and love forhaving a deeper relationship
with ourselves, the many facesof love involving into a higher
truth.
Most of us are taught to believethat love is one thing, a
(17:11):
singular, all-consuming forcethat either exists or doesn't.
We are conditioned to see loveas black and white, on or off,
earned or withdrawn.
But love in its true essence isfar more nuanced and
multi-dimensional than that.
(17:32):
It's not a single color, it's awhole spectrum.
There are layers of love,energetic frequencies.
Some love is rooted in need,habit and fear of loss.
Other love is rooted in freedom, in presence, in deep reverence
(17:53):
for the soul of another, evenwhen we don't understand them,
agree with them or choose to beclose to them.
Unconditional love does not meanunlimited access.
It does not mean toleratingharm or chaos in the name of
quote keeping the peace.
(18:13):
What it truly means is beingable to see someone as a whole,
even when they are acting fromtheir wounds.
It means choosing to lovewithout trying to change, fix or
manage the other person'sjourney.
It is love without strings,love without needing the other
(18:35):
person to behave a certain wayin order for your heart to stay
open.
Setting a boundary is not theopposite of love.
It's an expression of it.
Sometimes, the most lovingthing you can do is release
someone from your expectations,your inner battlefield and your
(18:57):
need to be seen or understood bythem.
You create sacred space byhonoring their path.
Therefore, you protect yourpeace and still you love.
Unconditional.
Love is not an emotion, it is astate of being.
It is the highest octave oftruth we can embody in this
(19:21):
world.
When we do, we stop needinglove to look a certain way and
begin to trust that real lovealways frees, never binds Love
in layers.
Most people have been taught tobelieve that love is
one-dimensional.
It's either there or it's not.
(19:41):
You're either in or you're outof it.
But this idea, this narrowdefinition of love, is what
creates so much confusion,disappointment and heartbreak in
our relationships.
Love as I know it, as I live, it, is layered.
(20:02):
It has depth, texture,vibration.
It is not black and white, it'san entire spectrum of
consciousness.
Some love feels warm and safe,like a soft blanket in winter.
In contrast, other forms oflove can feel like lightning,
(20:22):
chaotic, awakening, intense.
Some love is familiar, based onshared history or bloodline,
and some love is divine,boundless, unshakable, without
expectation or need.
This is the kind of love I'vecome to understand as
(20:43):
unconditional.
Unconditional love is not anemotion, it is a state of being,
a choice, a frequency you hold,not because someone has earned
it, but because you'veremembered who you are.
It's the kind of love thatdoesn't demand anyone to be
different from what they are.
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In fact, it doesn't requireagreement, closeness or even
understanding.
It simply is.
It stands firm like a mountain,unmovable by the storms of ego
and personality.
This is why I can say withpeace in my heart yes, I love my
(21:27):
children differently.
I love my friends, my animals,my land differently, but not
less, not more, just purely andwith presence.
And part of that differencecomes from how I relate to them,
what they mirror back to me andwhat I've learned to let go
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along the way.
There was a time when love meantattachment, when love meant
sacrifice, when love meantcrossing my own boundaries to
keep the peace.
That's not love, that'sconditioning, that's fear
dressed in affection.
Now love looks like honoringmyself and others.
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It looks like settingboundaries, not because I don't
love you, but because I do and Ilove me too.
It means I don't need to fixyou, save you or convince you of
anything.
I trust your soul's journey andI trust mine.
Therefore, I no longer carrythe burden of needing love to
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look a certain way.
I no longer need it to bemirrored perfectly back to me in
order to validate my giving.
When I say I love you, I mean Isee your soul and I let you be
exactly who you are.
That is the most radical loveof all.
(23:00):
So if you're struggling withlove, feeling too complicated,
too messy or too conditional,pause, feel into your own heart.
Ask yourself what kind of loveam I offering?
Is it rooted in fear, controlor unhealed expectations, or is
(23:22):
it free, vast and unconditional?
You are not here to earn love,you are here to become it, and
when you do I'm smiling.
I hope you can tell when you doyou embody love as a state of
being.
You will start to recognize itsmany layers and languages.
(23:46):
There will come a time when youwill stop asking love to look a
certain way, because you willfeel it everywhere, even in
silence, in distance and even ingoodbye.
That, my friends, is real loveand it is the path to a higher
(24:06):
state of consciousness.
Was that deep?
Did it move you?
I hope so.
As you know, I love metaphorstories, so today I want to
share a metaphor story thatshows why boundaries are
essential.
When dealing with individualswho do not share or value have
the same values or morals.
(24:27):
You can still love them.
Over time, you realize we nolonger need walls guarding and
protecting our hearts, but doors.
So here we go, the Garden ofMany Doors.
There once was a woman who livedin a vast and beautiful garden.
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The garden had no walls, nofences, only winding paths, tall
trees and the sound of windmoving like breath through the
leaves.
She called it the garden oflove.
Each time someone entered herlife, she welcomed them into her
garden with open arms.
(25:07):
She would lead them to theinnermost part, where the most
fragrant flowers bloomed and thewarmest sunlight touched the
earth.
She offered them her favoritefruit, her gentlest shade and a
place by the fire of her heart.
But not everyone who enteredher garden treated it with
(25:30):
reverence.
Some trampled upon the soil notknowing how sacred it was.
Others picked the flowerswithout asking and left without
looking back.
And some returned again andagain, not because they
cherished the garden but becausethey believed they owned a
piece of it.
(25:51):
The woman was confused.
She thought love meant offeringeverything, no matter what.
She thought love was all access, all forgiveness, all giving.
But the garden began to wither.
The fire in her chest flickeredlow.
One day she sat at the centerof her land and asked the wind
(26:13):
what am I doing wrong?
The wind replied you are nothere to close your heart, but
you must learn that not all whoenter are meant to stay at the
center.
So the woman began to builddoors, not walls, just doors.
Each path in her garden now hada door with a sign Welcome
(26:36):
traveler.
Walk with care.
You will be met in loveaccording to your own readiness
to receive it.
She didn't turn anyone away,but she no longer led everyone
to the sacred center.
Some were greeted at the outeredge where wildflowers still
(26:57):
grew, others were invited to sitby a tree, not the fire, and a
few, a rare few, who knew how tohonor the soil, were welcomed
all the way in.
She loved them all, but sheloved them differently.
She loved from a place ofclarity, not confusion.
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She loved without abandoningherself and something miraculous
happened the garden bloomedagain.
Because love, she realized,isn't about how much you give
away.
It's about how consciously yougive it, without conditions, but
with wisdom.
(27:39):
Now I have some journal promptsor things to practice for you
listeners.
And if you struggle with thatstory, like you immediately want
someone to get in the center ofyour BFF circle I'm an image on
the blog post that talks aboutthe center is for individuals.
(28:00):
There's your best friend.
Then it goes out even further.
There's a close friend, a greatfriend, just a general friend,
a casual friend, an acquaintance, someone that's a reference.
You can reference them.
There's many different layersof friendships.
So who in your life has beentrampling and disrespecting your
(28:21):
sacred space within your heart?
Ask yourself that question who?
Who has it?
Have you set any doorways thatsymbolize boundaries and if not,
why?
Okay, if you do have someone inmind, I want to offer a healing
ritual.
Write a letter to that personwho's been trampling and
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disrespecting your heart.
Express your feelings anddecide whether this person
stands in the seven layers offriendship where they stand.
And don't get me wrong, you canalso do this for family members
too.
When you're done writing thatletter to the person, thank it,
Just thank the letter.
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You're thanking the energy thatyou just exuded out onto that
paper.
Put the letter in an envelopeand write the person's name on
the front of the envelope.
Then, symbolically, you canburn it, bury it or tear the
letter as a conscious releaseand affirm to yourself this out
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loud this is an affirmation toanchor in and you can put your
hand on your heart when you saythis, because it actually is for
your heart.
I honor my heart and the walls Ihave built to survive.
I choose now to dismantle mywalls and to replace them with
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doorways, not just to protectmyself but my heart.
I will love again in stages astrust and mutual respect are
re-established, with courage andcompassion.
I not only do this for myself,but for you.
I am safe to expand, learn andgrow.
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I am safe as I establishdoorways within my heart.
Yes, I am free to be me,modeling Unconditional Love.
This is a deep subject and thetruth is many of us never had
unconditional love.
This is a deep subject and thetruth is many of us never had
unconditional love modeled to usgrowing up.
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If you did, you are a rare andlucky one.
I didn't, but I did learn whatunconditional love looks like
and would feel like, not from ahuman but an animal.
So let me share a story from mychildhood that shaped my
understanding of love and maybeit will resonate with you too.
(30:52):
I was seven or eight years old.
The most impactful time Iwitnessed unconditional love
model to me growing up waswatching a mother cat take care
of her newborn kittens.
As a little girl, I admired herpatience, kindness, comfort,
warmth and nurturing presence.
She was so gentle with them andtender.
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When they fussed about, thesetiny fluff balls could tumble
into fierce kitten battles andthen curl up together like
nothing had ever happened.
That's forgiveness in action.
We all know animals are soforgiving and can experience
trauma.
With the right person andtender, loving care, these
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animals eventually let downtheir walls and create doorways
for us to unlock over time,creating a bond that is so
strong and powerful.
That bond was built on patience, kindness, forgiveness and the
kind of unconditional love weoften forget exists.
(31:57):
Have you ever witnessed birth ofan animal or a child?
Not on a screen, but in reallife?
It's amazing and I'm nottalking about watching it on
television.
In real life it's so much moreimpactful why you are feeling
the energy and vibration of allthe juicy, fantastic frequencies
(32:18):
.
In 5D human consciousness.
There is unconditional love,joy, pure happiness, celebration
and the beauty of life from ourCreator all wrapped up into one
magnificent, energetic momentof creation.
Sometimes there are no wordsfor what one feels in that
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moment of pure grace and thegift of life being birthed
before one's eyes.
You have to take a deep sighbecause it can take one's breath
away when one is enveloped bypure, unconditional love and
gratitude.
Have you ever witnessed orexperienced what I'm trying to
(33:00):
describe?
It is almost like one of thosetop 10 life experiences.
Therefore, I would watch thismama cat care for her babies for
hours and weeks.
The joy I felt, herunconditional love, was
intoxicating.
Sometimes I wished and longedfor that kind of love from
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another human being.
I did my best, growing up, toemulate the state of being
displaying unconditional love.
At one point I thought it wasimpossible to find it in another
, just like the woman in themetaphor story.
I got hurt, abused andexperienced trauma.
(33:42):
So I shut down and built walls,like we all do, to survive and
stay safe.
So as I got older and wiser, Irealized I was happier when I
let go of all my expectationsabout others and eventually
myself.
I had to accept that my parentscould never give me what my
(34:03):
heart desired, but animals,music, cooking, dancing and
nature could.
So I made a choice to dismantlethe walls I built and replace
them with doorways opening forlove to walk through.
Setting healthy boundaries wasvital and of course, I got a lot
of pushback.
(34:24):
Unconditional love andacceptance became my path to
healing from narcissistic abuse.
Was it easy?
Hell no.
There were people I longed tosee pay for what they did to me.
I wanted justice and I wantedthem to suffer the way I did.
Can anyone relate?
It is hard to turn the othercheek when someone begs you to
(34:47):
snap or intentionally smears andruins your entire life, taking
away everything you love andhold high in value.
If you read my book, you knowwhat I mean.
Being able to forgive my fatherfor his relentless abuse
against me was not easy.
I did it for me, not him.
(35:09):
I decided that I no longerwanted to live with resentment,
bitterness, judgment and avictim mindset.
As time passed, I realized thatI had to love myself first if I
wanted to experience truehappiness again.
I had to rise above it all, andthe truth is I've come a long
(35:33):
way.
Therefore, as far as I havecome along this journey of
becoming light and love again, Ihave been my most excellent
client in recovering fromnarcissistic abuse.
Once my past no longerinfluenced my future, I was
truly free.
I returned to what I desired tobecome, just like that
(35:57):
nurturing mama cat.
And you know what?
In a way, I have become thatmama cat.
Oddly enough, someone askedabout me, and the person who
described me said that I wasnurturing like a mother who
makes you feel warm, accepted,heard, seen and understood.
Who was Really.
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Who was your mama cat?
The one who showed you whatlove could look like, even only
if it was for a moment?
Who was that person for you?
When you know who that personis, honor them today.
That was a gift they gave youand that's a beautiful gift.
(36:39):
Therefore, that mama cat was myteacher of unconditional love.
Sounds strange, but it's trueand I'm so darn proud of it.
That is why I am the catwhisperer and owner of a few
spoiled cats.
Closing thoughts onmisconception is love.
So many of us have spent ourlives searching for that kind of
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love, the kind we saw in amother cat's gentle touch, or
maybe in a song, a sunset or aquiet moment where we felt safe,
just being ourselves.
We search for it in others,hoping someone will cradle our
wounds with patience, see ourmess and still stay.
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But what if the invitation allalong was to become that kind of
love?
What if we are the ones meantto embody it Strong, soft and
unwavering, like the mama cattending to the wild wounded
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parts within us and others?
That kind of love doesn't justheal, it transforms, and maybe,
just maybe, when we stop chasingit, we start living it.
So if no one told you today,you are worthy of that kind of
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love and even more than that,you are capable of giving it,
you are.
So until next time, in love andlight.
Angela Meyer and Keri Logan Bye.