Talks With Middle Adults: Being Church Ain’t Enough!

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Gain courage to change your mind and experience more freedom as we explore unlearning what we thought we knew about the church. Our varied experiences reveal the importance of personal faith and community outside the church walls.

• Emphasis on personal faith beyond church attendance 
• Importance of community in living out one’s beliefs 
• Unlearning the rigid structures of traditional church experiences 
• Encouraging dialogue on faith journeys and experiences 
• Acknowledgement of personal imperfections and God’s unconditional love 
• Insight into how societal expectations shape spiritual understandings 

If you find value in our content, share it with a friend who may benefit as well!

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hello everybody and welcome once again to the
unlearned podcast.
I am your host, ruth Abigailaka Ra.
What's up, friends?
It's your girl Jaquita.
And this is the podcast that ishelping you gain the courage to
change your mind so that you canexperience more freedom.
And before we get started, wewant to say thank you to

(00:26):
everybody out there.
Thank you for those that arelistening to our community.
We appreciate you.
Please continue to like, shareand subscribe, because if this
content has any value for you,it probably has value for
somebody else.
Amen and amen.
So uh don't keep it to yourself,folks, Share it, share it,
share it.
We want to.
We want the unlearningcommunity to keep growing.

(00:49):
What's up, Queda?
How you doing?

Speaker 2 (00:51):
Listen, we just out here living, all right.
Living life and life moreabundantly.
Okay, let me tell y'allsomething.
Abundant life Okay, y'allremember one of them episodes.
I was like I'm trying to learnto be a bound.
I don't want to be a base.
Let me tell you somethingAbundant life is busy, okay.

(01:12):
Abundant life is out hereworking for the Lord Okay,
abundant life.
Abundant life keeps you rolling.
So we're living life abundantlyand it's amazing.

Speaker 1 (01:24):
That's beautiful.
There's a couple of things thatyou should know about this
episode, first of all.
First of all, this is oursecond recording of it.
Let me explain something.
What we're talking about todayis important, right?
We find it very important.
It's actually very close to meand Queda's heart and we just we

(01:45):
bombed man.
That last recording was a bust.

Speaker 2 (01:49):
We were.
When I tell you, Ruth Abigailand I were dead tired.

Speaker 1 (01:54):
I hadn't eaten anything.
I was like yo, this is notworking.

Speaker 2 (01:58):
Yeah, and we were like oh, let's just go ahead and
record, because you know we cando this in our sleep.
No, we cannot.

Speaker 1 (02:06):
No, we cannot, no, we cannot and it deserved just a
little bit more honor it did, itdid, so we're redoing it.
So this is take two andhopefully it is worth.
It is worth it.
I think it'll be better thanthe first one.
Um, and then the other thing isuh, jaquita, if you notice, her

(02:27):
voice is a little, um, you know, shocked.
Yeah, yeah, not all the waythere, okay, um, jaquita had a
preaching engagement recentlyand Preaching engagement.
It's hilarious yeah that's whatit was.
So Jaquita had a preachingengagement and you know, when
Queda preaches, she gives it herall, and that means her voice

(02:49):
takes the hit, and so y'all,just y'all, y'all forgive her
hoarseness on tonight.

Speaker 2 (02:55):
Listen, I'm going to do the best I can.
Those of you if you know, youknow, I got the throat coat on
deck, okay, if you know, youknow, okay, cause we ain't
letting nothing stop the show ontoday, all right, so we ready.
There, it is All right.
There it is.
Close captions.
If you need it, all right, justturn that little, hit that

(03:17):
little CC button, all right, andit'll translate.
Sometimes it don't betranslating right, though it
really doesn't.
Sometimes it don't betranslated right, though it
really doesn't, Sometimes itreally doesn't.
It's not always dependable, andthe way it spells my name Is
hilarious, I see you.
Okay, that is not it, it'sactually hilarious.

Speaker 1 (03:32):
That's not it.

Speaker 2 (03:33):
It butchers my name every time.
I be like who is Sequita?

Speaker 1 (03:37):
It reminds me of taquitos, you know, like the
little.

Speaker 2 (03:43):
All right, everybody, we want to thank y'all for
coming to the episode.
I don't know where she wasabout to go, but we're not
following her on today.
Why?
Because we're going to followthe Lord, all right, we're
talking about the church, allright.
So today, whatever you wereabout to do, we're not doing it.
I, today, we are here to talkabout what we unlearned about

(04:03):
the church, about ourrelationships with God, about
faith at the kitchen table.
My God, oh boy.
And let me tell you something,something about me and Ruth
Abigail.
Oh, we listen.
We might be different, we mightcome from different
perspectives, but one thingabout it, two things for sure as
the old people say, as the oldfolks say, we love the church.

(04:28):
Okay, both of us work and haveworked for, again, middle adult
term, decades.
You know, you know you're amiddle adult when you start
counting stuff in increments, Ifind that to be an unnecessary
thing for you to have Decades.

Speaker 1 (04:43):
Okay.

Speaker 2 (04:44):
Ruth Abigail, her whole life, all of my life.
Wow, she's been at that church.
But you know we really do.
We love God, we love the church.
I love Ruth.
Abigail loves his people.
We work with the people of God,we work with church.
But you know, there were thingsthat as we've grown and as we
have kind of just matriculatedthrough life, that we had to

(05:06):
unlearn.
That's right.

Speaker 1 (05:08):
We did.
And so we want to go throughthose things and we're just
going to like, we're going tokind of discuss them, and I
think a lot of them are probablycommon, right, common things
that a lot of people have had tounlearn about the church
growing up, and this isessentially like it's like okay,
this is what we perceived.
I know for me it wasn't so muchthat, like I was taught these

(05:31):
things, it's not like these werelike things drilled in, but
they were things that I observedand I just kind of like
internalized probablyincorrectly, right, but there
was a reason for that, right,like so my brain interpreted
certain things and I kind oflived with it until I learned
something different, and so thatthose are going to be most of

(05:53):
what we talk about.
And again, just to remind youwhat the kitchen table is, it's
things you may have learnedgrowing up from your family or
community or general society.
So how, what that has lookedlike over the course of time.

Speaker 2 (06:08):
Yeah, you know, I think it's really interesting.
You know, ruth and I we talk alot about how different we are.
And we are, you know, and Ithink one of the ways that the
difference was kind of the moststark at the beginning of our
friendship was kind of ourrelationship with the church,
kind of pre-meeting each otherand during meeting each other,

(06:30):
you know.
And so before I got to college,when I was in let's start.
Okay, so my family, dad was inthe army.
We traveled all over the place,lived in Germany, you know,
international, lived in Germanyfor a few years.
And when we came back to theStates, you know, when I was in

(06:51):
Germany, I didn't know what achurch was.
You know, we lived on base in aforeign country, so there
really wasn't church for usthere.
Or it may have been when wedidn't go.
I'll tell you that I don'tremember no church services.
But when we got back to theStates, my family comes from a
very traditional AME church,very family oriented.

(07:14):
Everyone in that church I wasrelated to growing up.
Cousin so-and-so was over thechoir, cousin so-and-so was out
there tending to the yard.
That's amazing.
They asked my great aunt Reedevery Sunday to sing a selection
Now, sister Pugh, if everybodywould just set your hearts as

(07:35):
Sister Pugh leads us in acongregational hymn every Sunday
.
And so it was a time, ok, and soyou know it was.
It was, it was a, it was a time.
So you know when I.
But there was just a momentwhere my family stopped going to
church.
Really I think it was after myparents divorce and we kind of
moved and did a lot of differentthings, didn't go to church for

(07:56):
a while, but then I joined RuthAbigail, the gospel choir, my
Lord, ok, the gospel choir.
Ruth Abigail, the gospel choir,my Lord, okay, the gospel choir
, and that kind of changed mylife and changed my trajectory
and gave my life to the Lordright before college.
And so that set the precedent.
I think that set a precedencefor how I encountered faith,

(08:18):
differently than Ruth, who has avery different kind of priest
story background story.

Speaker 1 (08:23):
Yeah, mine was very, very different, almost the exact
opposite per most things thatme and Queda are.
I mean, I grew up in church.
I was baptized at six years old, but I was there from birth.
My father was always a minister, is currently a pastor, and I

(08:44):
also went to a Christian school,like kindergarten to 12th grade
.
I had Bible class five days aweek all through school.
We would memorize portions ofthe Bible.
I mean, this was you know, wehad a memory verse every week.
We would.
As we got older, the memoryverses got longer till we got to
chapters where we had tomemorize them.

(09:04):
Right, uh, and so I mean it iswhen you think about it, but we,
we was out here quoting Johnone, not one verse, one John one
.
like these people, had usquoting the whole chapters,
while Luke two, I could quotethe entire thing for you right
now.
And so you know I grew up inthat.

(09:25):
And so you know I grew up in amissionary Baptist church, a
traditional Black Baptist church, and then I went into a
multi-ethnic community churchand that's where kind of my
teenage years were spent church,and that's where kind of my

(09:48):
teenage years were spent.
And so I entered college and meand Queda you know, kind of
connected, when I was reallykind of tired of church and I
was, I was tired of I was just Iwas a little burned out from it
.
I mean, it was my entire life.
And so, and for me I I had tore-engage some passion with my
relationship with God.
When I got to college whereas Ithink Queda was finding it, it

(10:09):
was very passionate.
Like I wasn't passionate, I wascommitted to what I knew.
I wouldn't even say I wascommitted to God at that point,
I was just committed to what Iknew.

Speaker 2 (10:22):
That's such a good distinction.

(10:46):
That's such a good distinction.
That's such a good distinctionbecause I think, if I look at
areas of my life, even right now, where I felt like I got stuck
or I felt like I needed to bethrough a situation or a season
where he was able to convince methat there was so much more to
life, so much more to him, thanwhat I knew.
And I think you know, when Ithink about, like what we've
unlearned or what I've unlearned, I think that that's kind of
one of the principal things thatwhat you know can set a full

(11:09):
precedence for how you willengage God for the rest of your
life, as if you don't have tolearn anymore.
And I think that because when Ientered church, when I entered
into the world of faith, I wasvery much like I was like a
sponge, I was soaking it all upand everything was new,

(11:30):
everything was fresh, everythingwas like an adventure and I
didn't question anything.
Right, it wasn't until I got tothe point where I felt like I
knew some, that I knew a lot, Iknew a good bit, that I started
getting stuck, but as long as Ikept kind of the mindset of I

(11:53):
don't know anything about thisyou know like this is.
this is a brand new experience,a brand new.
You know, this is all.
This is all something that I'mpartaking in and I feel like and
that wasn't on our list, but Ifelt like I needed to point that
out that it was when I feltlike I didn't know it.

(12:15):
That's when I moved forward,but I had to unlearn this idea
of knowing, of knowing it all,of having it all and having the
framework already being all youknow, of having it all and and
and having the framework alreadybeing like I know the Lord, you
know, y'all can't trick me andI also don't want to learn
anything about how you know.
Know the Lord.
Yeah, no, that was also sorry.

(12:38):
Last point, that was also apoint of tension in our
friendship.

Speaker 1 (12:41):
Yeah, well, I was about to, I was just about to go
there Like I think that, um,what church?
So I think what I, what I hadto unlearn, and one of the
things that we wanted to say waswhat church looked like and
what it was supposed to looklike, right, um, and so I love
what you're, what you're saying,like this idea of unlearning

(13:02):
that no, no, unlearning knowinglike that's really good, that's
really good and I, I agree, Ithink that's it's.
You know, it's a trap, like um,there's a, there's a, there's
actually a term for it.
Um, oh, I wish I could rememberit.
I can't remember it, but it'sessentially a term for when you
get to a point where you becomethe expert in something and you

(13:24):
start to, uh, you, you don't,you, you kind of close yourself
off to new knowledge aboutanything, and that's, that's
really how things start to.
you know, decline, I mean, youknow, I've I've heard the term
used when it comes to companies.
Uh, you know you, you get to.
You look at IBM versus like IBMwas at the top of their game.

(13:45):
They were doing all the thingsyou were doing with computers
when Apple came in and took themover because IBM was the expert
and they weren't willing to doanything or learn anything new.
So, the new kid on the blockcame and shifted it and they
couldn't ever keep up.
And so it's like this idea ofknowing like it really does make
you stagnant, idea of knowinglike it really does make you

(14:09):
stagnant.
And I think I, I, I, I cameinto my college experience, um,
with this knowing attitude ofI'm just going to keep on doing
what it is I've been doing, andI and I and I ran into a wall
because my experiences incollege with church were very
different than the ones I hadgrowing up and that's what
brought me a lot of internaltension, because I was fighting,
learning something new for awhile.

(14:31):
I was fighting that.

Speaker 2 (14:33):
No, that's so good, though, because I think for me.
I remember constantly beingtold I was on the fast track.
You know like and and it was,but it wasn't like a.
It wasn't like a fast trackLike look at how much further
Jaquita is than y'all.
It was like a fast track, Likelook at how behind Jaquita is

(14:54):
and she has to catch up.
And so I felt like I had to runat full speed with God.
And I remember when I was incollege, I remember God
constantly pulling me to theside and saying rest in my love.
And I was like what do we needto rest for?
I'm behind, I can't restbecause they're going to like if

(15:20):
you're behind, you're alwaysthinking people are going to
realize that.
I think that that was somethingthat was in the back of my mind
as a baby believer.
Is that I was like people aregoing to recognize that you
don't really know what you'redoing.
And even now, as a leader,sometimes I sit back and I'm

(15:40):
like people are looking at me.
I'm like, yeah, they're goingto recognize that like girl, you
are an imposter.
Wow, do you know that, like, youdon't have the same faith story
that these people have?
You didn't grow up going tochurch five days a week, you
know, and being in three Biblestudies and two choir rehearsals

(16:00):
, and you didn't have thoseexperiences.
I mean, I did some, you know,but when I got to college it was
I had to ask my friends.
I remember I asked my momChristmas for Christmas, get me
a Bible, cause y'all weretalking about stories I had no
idea about and the church wewere going to.
I remember he did a deep diveon Ruth and I was like I ain't

(16:20):
even know, this woman was inthis Bible.
Who else is in this Bible thatI don't know about?

Speaker 1 (16:27):
That's real.
That's that's actually reallyreal because, um, I think that
growing up in a church, growingup with I could understand that,
well, I couldn't like it's so,like your experience, whatever
your experience with the churchwas growing up, um, whatever
there's a new, whatever you, Inever experienced the newness

(16:50):
that you're talking about.

Speaker 2 (16:52):
I never experienced that.

Speaker 1 (16:54):
I was actually talking with um, cause my
husband was the same way, likehe, ty, we were just talking
about this not too long ago andhe didn't like I was like hey,
you remember learning about thisin Sunday school?
He was like no, we didn't, wedidn't talk with him and also
I'm not even sure I was payingattention, right, like so you
know, I think.
And so I said, and I remembertelling him he was I was like I,

(17:15):
I, there's a, there is a smallenvy I have of of people who
have your story, because I don'tknow what it's like to have
that kind of newness and passionfor, for, for um, biblical
things or even things of church,because it's it's I've never
been excited about it becauseI've never had to be um and

(17:39):
that's why.

Speaker 2 (17:40):
You know what I mean it's.
It's really interesting and Idon't.

Speaker 1 (17:42):
And I and he looked at me like he was like, don't
ever say that, like you kiddingme, I, I wish.
I said like I wish I had whatyou had.

Speaker 2 (17:52):
You know, it was one of those things like no, I was
entrenched, yeah, you wereswimming in it.
You know day and night.
You know you went to school.
You went to a Bible school.
You came home to a preachingdaddy Right, and you know, and
your mama, you know, one of thefaithful saints that's right for

(18:16):
real.
Yeah, you know, and sorenched asa young adult, which I think is
different because it was achoice.
Right Like I came, I gotexposed outside of my home.

(18:44):
You know it was really myfriends saying we're going to
join the gospel choir becausethey could both sing, like all
my friends could sing except forme.
And I joined and that was thefirst prayer I had.
I was on the gospel choir and Irealized that and we weren't,
this wasn't no, just like alittle, a little community
church choir, like we were goingto competitions and you know

(19:05):
competitions, and the leader wasKojic and you know Kojic, our
Kojic brothers and sisters andchoirs that's the Clark sisters,
claire and Clark Sheard Don'tplay with it, they do not play
about them choirs.
We was back then.
It was rough and tough.
If you wasn't on that note, itwas like you are the weakest

(19:31):
link.
I just remember being on thechoir.
I started off in the sopranosection.
Y'all can tell Even by myhoarse voice, there's not a
soprano anywhere on the insideof me.
There is not.
Thank you, ruth.
I don't need any commentary foryou.

(19:51):
Y'all know how, ruth, get aboutmy singing, okay, we don't have
a good relationship when itcomes to me and singing.

Speaker 1 (19:58):
I think you're an amazing speaker.
I think you have just thehighest, anywho.

Speaker 2 (20:03):
Anywho, right Started off in the soprano section,
they kept stopping the choir,like stopping the whole
rehearsal, like ah, something iswrong in the soprano section.
And then I just slowly dipped.
So I dipped over to the altosection and they started
stopping it.
They was like somebody's just alittle off or they were like
the alto's not loud enough.

(20:24):
I need y'all to sing full voice.
And I was like I don't have nofull alto voice to give you.
Okay, all I got is this whisperOkay, that's all I got for you.
And so but that was my firstprayer was like Lord, please
help me to sing well enough justto stay in this choir.
And I really felt when I feltGod move.

(20:46):
The excitement from that, Ithink, is what really began to
propel me in believing that Godwanted to interact in my life.
And I think that it wasn't.
It wasn't the, you know.
I think what I had to I hadn'tyet learned, but what I realized
that I later had to unlearn wasthat God moves outside the

(21:10):
doors of the church.
This was before I had everreally stepped foot into a
church on my own volition.

Speaker 1 (21:19):
You get what.

Speaker 2 (21:20):
I'm saying, and God was moving in me in the high
school gospel choir, you know,and I didn't even know what I
was singing about.
But one day I just sat andtalked to my friends and I was
like, hey, how do I do thesalvation thing?
Because I just need to makesure, because it hit.
There was something building.
That was a relationship thatwasn't based on traditions or

(21:44):
routines or orders or structuresof a building, but it was a
relationship that I walked withGod in and then he walked me
into church.

Speaker 1 (21:55):
Yeah, I think that's a really important point,
because church for most peoplegrowing up really just existed
in a building and like, and Ithink what you just described is
really what the church issupposed to be, which is a
community.
I mean, at the end of the day,church is community.
It's community of one accord.

Speaker 2 (22:17):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (22:18):
And that can happen anywhere, right, like so I mean,
when you think about it, like Imean the earliest churches,
there were no buildings, theymet in houses and they really
experienced.
I think a lot of most peopleexperienced God the way you did,
in the context of a safecommunity where they were
experiencing people relating toGod, like that.

(22:39):
That is that's the way thatpeople entered into this idea of
a church and so.
But we have gotten, you know,and I I was, but again, I was
very much in the.
I was in ingrained in theinstitution, so ingrained in the
institution that, as I got onmy own, I didn't really

(23:05):
understand how to encounter God,not just outside of the church.
In fact, I'll be even moreblunt and say this I wasn't
interested in encountering Godoutside of the church because I
felt that that was my time.
It's like cool, I got you onSundays, the rest of the.

(23:26):
I was definitely one of thosepeople Like I got you on Sundays
and then I'm, I'm gonna do whatI want to do, but I got you on
Sunday, and that's because I,because I was so ingrained in
the institution and I think youknow, especially those of us who
grew up in the South.
That was just a part of ourlives for a lot of people, even
if you weren't like religiouslythat's not the word I wanted to

(23:50):
use Even if you weren'tconsistent in it, like I know
you weren't but you werefamiliar.
Your family right was a part ofit.
You had like, so it wasn't likeit was foreign to you and most
people.
The institution of the church inthe South is not foreign, um,
and and so that that's.
I think it can.
Um, that familiarity cansometimes be detrimental to our,

(24:15):
to our progress inunderstanding our relationship
with God.
Um, and so what it was for Iwon't say it was detrimental, it
had to fight that.
That was something I had tofight as I continued to move and
find the way that I was goingto allow God to encounter me
outside of the church.

(24:36):
I wasn't really interested inthat.
I just felt like this is what Ido, I'm going to go to church.
Cool, I have no problem withthat.
I'm cool with going to church.
That's what I do.
I wouldn't even know what to doon a Sunday if I didn't go to
church.
So, but, um, I think, I thinkthat point of church, you know,
unlearning that church happensinside of a building.

(24:57):
That's a very recentdevelopment, I think.
Uh, cause y'all we did a littleresearch, cause you know we
like to prepare Um and uh.
Let prepare um and uh.
Let's see here.
I think it wasn't until I meanshoot, it wasn't until a couple
of centuries that buildings wereeven formed right where, like,

(25:18):
meeting space is the way we knownow.
Of course there was the templeback in the day, but that wasn't
like I mean, that was wherepeople made sacrifice and all
that, but it wasn't a gatheringspace for anybody except for the
teachers.
I mean, they engaged withregular people to just show up.

Speaker 2 (25:34):
Yeah, they were meeting in houses.

Speaker 1 (25:36):
They were in houses.

Speaker 2 (25:38):
In the upper room.
Thank you, you know like.

Speaker 1 (25:41):
Yes, oh sorry.

Speaker 2 (25:44):
Keep going.
Y'all felt the disrespect,didn't you?
You felt it, didn't you?
You felt it.
I know y'all felt it.
Okay, because it was present,it was the disrespect was with
us in the room, okay.
But you know, I really I lovewhat you said about church being
community, because I think oneof the things that I had to
unlearn, especially when I wentto divinity school, was the idea

(26:08):
that learning God happenedinside of the building versus
inside of my lived experienceand you know, and so like I was
taking everything I was learningin church and I was like this
is the, this is the golden rulefor the rest of my life and God
had to start, and not that itwasn't, and not that it

(26:30):
shouldn't be, but I was notleaving room for God to reveal
and to illuminate onrelationships, on how to build
community, on how to speak faithoutside of the church.
Right, it's easy to talk topeople who talk just like you.
You know what I'm saying.

(26:51):
It's easy to relate to peoplewho look like, act like, believe
like and think like you.
But when I went to divinityschool, I felt very othered, and
it was funny because I feltothered while also being a part
of a majority.
And what I'm saying is, likeyou know, like in divinity

(27:11):
school, it was a lot of peoplewho claimed the same faith but
expressed it very differently,expressed it very differently.
And I started.
Labels were flying around, youknow, like oh, I'm a
conservative, oh I'm atheoretical, oh I'm a linguistic
, oh I'm evangelistic, oh I doNew Testament, oh I do Holy

(27:34):
Ghost, oh I do Jesus only.
And labels were flying aroundand all of a sudden I found
myself dodging the labels, butit was very, almost impossible
to do because people needed away to classify you.
You want to know one of the mosthurtful moments that I had in

(27:55):
college, and I still rememberthis to this day.
I was talking with a friend.
He was like a year or two olderthan me, and I remember I was
talking to him and this mancalled me to my face a Bible
thumper.
And I was like what do you mean?
I had never even heard thatterm before.
And he was like, yeah, becauseyou know, you and your friends,

(28:17):
some Bible thumpers.
And I was like I was like whatdo you even mean?
Because at that time I thinkthis might have been like junior
year.
So you know, I was fresh on myspiritual kick junior year.
You know I was at an all timehigh but I had never thumped the
Bible at him.
You know, like I had never, youknow I had never told him or

(28:39):
tried to, you know, tell himanything, but it was just what
he was reading from my life.
But I realized it becamesomething that I tried to like,
resist.
Yeah, like, because I want itto be seen as moderate and not
as any any of the extremes.

Speaker 1 (29:00):
Yeah, Cause what's your?
You said something earlier,this idea of what did you say?
Okay, hold on, let's work itback.
So we talked about the Bible.
It all aligned.

Speaker 2 (29:14):
Oh man, what'd you say?
Give her middle adult a littletime to process.

Speaker 1 (29:18):
Yeah, give me a minute.

Speaker 2 (29:20):
This is what happens sometimes okay, yes, thank you.

Speaker 1 (29:23):
Yeah, if it takes too long producer, Joy will edit.
She'll figure it out.
But I think the thing that I'llgo with the Bible thumper thing
for a minute, because I thinkthat's it's really interesting
you said that you were that wasoffensive to you there it is the
idea of the idea of a livedexperience, right Like this idea

(29:47):
of allowing God to live, tounderstand God through the way
you live on a regular basis andconnecting him and the
relationship you have to yourlived experience.
This is, I think that's reallyinteresting kind of leaning into
.
That church is outside of thebuilding piece.

(30:07):
I think a lot of people growingup including myself to a certain
degree, I'll say another pointthat we discussed that we have
to unlearn is that the church isnot perfect.
And here's how I think thesethings connect, because if we
establish that the church isreally people and it's a
community, then but for whateverreason, a lot of us have this

(30:33):
are ingrained in this idea ofthe church is what happens
within a building.
Many, many people, includingmyself for a season, especially
growing up, did not connect myexperiences in the building with
my lifestyle outside of it wowthat was not something I paid

(30:55):
attention to.
I just did what I thought wasthe right thing to do.
I didn't really.
It wasn't like it was like youknow, I was doing it consciously
.
I was really just doing causewhat I knew and and I think that
a lot of people are turned offby um, by the faith, by
Christianity, because there's adisconnect between in the

(31:17):
building and out of the building.

Speaker 2 (31:19):
Wow.

Speaker 1 (31:20):
And there's you know what I'm saying.
Like so many of us don'tactually pay attention to our
lives outside of the building,even though that's where the
experience of God and of otherbelievers happens most of the
time.

Speaker 2 (31:38):
Yeah Right, and I think, just to play into that a
little bit, it plays on thisidea that holiness is built by
checking off the boxes.

Speaker 1 (31:49):
Right.

Speaker 2 (31:50):
I attended church, I went to Bible study, I joined
the choir.
I usher on Sunday morningsversus holiness being crafted in
the way that you live outsideof the building.

Speaker 1 (32:02):
Right and like this idea of this Bible thumper that
you were saying a lot of people.
That is the truth, but this isthe reality, I think.
I think a lot of people feelthat because their lives are
disconnected at the end of theday.
Now, I said what I said, so Iand I say that I say that in

(32:22):
love, cause I've been there, allright.
So I think, and I think it's onboth sides.
Let me be clear, that Biblethumper language is very, I mean
, it's not meant to be acompliment, it's, it's, it's,
it's, it's meant to be offensive, like you know.
You're throwing your religion atme, that kind of thing.
Okay, and I really wasn't?

(32:42):
Well, no, you probably weren't,but here's the reality.
There are some people that do,you know, there are some people
that do.
Obviously, I'm still a littlehurt.
I understand.
I'm sorry, I'm sorry.

Speaker 2 (32:56):
I'm giving you a moment because this person sorry
, let's, I'm sorry.
I'm giving a moment becausethis person ain't even in my
life anymore.
You know like I could feel thatI don't want to move past it.
I'm sorry, cuida, oh no.

Speaker 1 (33:07):
I'm fine, okay, if you knew who it was, you would
be like okay, okay, okay, yeah,um, but, but no, I think, but
that, that that actually.
But there are some people thatdo throw their religion at
people and a lot of times theydo that because their lives are
disconnected.
And then there are some peoplethat do throw their religion at
people and a lot of times theydo that because their lives are
disconnected.
And then there are people thatfeel like the religion is thrown
at them when it's really not.
It's because their lives aredisconnected.
So, but when your life isconnected to, uh, what Sunday

(33:30):
morning, can I say this Get inthere, all right, all right.
So I just give me a minute,cause I'm going to say something
and I don't know it's going tocome across.
One of the things that bothersme, and it bothers me, it is
nuts.
It is something I grew up with.
Okay, altar call.
We know, we know.
Well, if those of you thatdon't know what altar call is,

(33:51):
people come up and it can lookdifferently.
Right, like, I came up withpeople, you know.
They came to the altar, theyasked for prayer, or you could
join the church or you could askto be baptized.
Those were kind of the threeoptions that were, you know, at
play here.
But there are other altar callsthat are a little lengthier,
you know they last a littlelonger, you know people, it's a

(34:12):
little bit more dramatic.
I'm just, this is just what.
It is.
All right, I didn't grow upwith a dramatic.

Speaker 2 (34:17):
Dramatic is a crazy word, Ruth Abigail.
But, it's true, though let's.
Let's be real, but the Lord, bemoving at some of the monsters.

Speaker 1 (34:22):
So, so let me.
Let me say this I agree, andthis is well.
This is where my pet peeve.
Moving doesn't matter if itdoesn't move outside of the
building.
Now, I'd agree with you there,and this is my issue.

(34:46):
We have people that are goingto altars every week for the
same thing, over and over andover, and there's no change
outside of the building.
I'm sorry, I'm sorry.
The altar can't help you.
You have to take what happensand move it outside of Sunday
morning.
I'm done.
I'm not going to get on thatstoop.

Speaker 2 (35:03):
No, listen, apply the word, apply, apply, apply,
apply.
Let me tell y'all something.
I just want to.
I just want to cut in realquick For those of you who know
what the fivefold ministry is.
Okay, you know that there arefive principal gifts, ministry
gifts that Jesus left in theearth.
All right, you have the apostleokay, who built and established

(35:26):
and found different sectors ofthe faith, different people,
different groups of believers.
You have prophets, right, whospeak on behalf of God and edify
and challenge the body ofChrist.
You have pastors okay, who loveand shepherd the people and
pour into the people Okay, youhave evangelists who go out

(35:48):
there and they build up thechurch.
Then you have the teachers Okay, ruth Abigail is a teacher.
Okay, ruth Abigail.
Teachers give you the word.
They don't care about how itsits with you.
Okay, they give it to you.
They're like hey here is,here's the truth Deal with it.

(36:09):
Take it to the pastor if youneed to be consoled.

Speaker 1 (36:12):
Not going to lie, that's actually.
I appreciate that Cause that'strue I do.
I do have that gift.
It is what it is, I can't.
The truth is what it is andsometimes it just needs to be
said the way it needs to be said, and that's just the reality.
Listen, I look, I love a goodaltar call.
I have no problem with it.
But if that is but it, if itdoesn't shift your life, you
have wasted your time.

(36:33):
Let me tell you something, justone more, just, just, just,
just just.

Speaker 2 (36:37):
I just have to the preacher's hands doesn't have
magic.
Sometimes they do.
No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,no, no.
Not magic, but they got alittle Holy ghost, but go ahead.

Speaker 1 (36:47):
What I'm saying is what I'm saying is that's not
enough.
You, you, you, having you goingup and and the preacher, and
the preacher, pastor, prophet,whoever it is, whoever you
happen to engage with, putstheir hands on you, puts the oil
on you and you fall out.
Oh Lord, thank you, lord, I'mdelivered.
And then you go out, don'tchange any behavior.

(37:08):
You ain't delivered.
Listen, listen, listen.
I'm sorry, I'm so sorry.

Speaker 2 (37:13):
I'm so sorry.
I'm going to sum up my goodsister's word and I'm going to
tell you Jesus had altar callsand when he finished working
with somebody, what he wouldtell them is thy faith has made
thee whole.
Go and sin no more.
Don't go.
He gave instructions.
He gave clarity about what themoment was, about what he did in

(37:36):
the moment, and there was aninstruction for how to maintain
what he did in their lives.
No-transcript calling pastor infor different situations.

(38:04):
You know, calling other people,calling and asking and saying I
need, I need, I need, but notchanging, not being willing, not
being willing to reallyevaluate ourselves.
And I think that a lot of times, a lot of times, church culture
, the thing that I had tounlearn about the church and it
might be surprising, the thingthat I had to unlearn, but I do
think that it made me a betterpreacher, it made me a better

(38:26):
minister.
I had to learn that churchneeds to be challenged to move
forward.
That it's not I had to learn.
And again, I learned this indivinity school.
If you were with me during mydivinity school years, you know
I talked a lot of junk aboutdivinity school, but when I look
back at it I'm like I'm sograteful because I would not.

(38:48):
I would not be able to do someof the things I do in the way
that I do it.
I do it.
I'm able to appreciate thechurch and love the church and
also lovingly speak to thechurch about what God is
intending to do next, that wemight miss if we don't position
ourselves.

(39:09):
And I think that if I had notmoved from that childlike
observance of believing thateveryone in this building is
perfect, everything that is saidis perfect, everything that is
done is perfect, that there's noill intent, that there's no,
there's no, that the people whoare moving in here don't need

(39:32):
healing and deliverance andperspective and that they don't
need God to still move, it goesback to that knowing part, like
we cannot assume that the churchknows everything.
The church is the bride ofChrist.
We are not the Lord, we're thebride, you know, and we are

(39:54):
still learning his ways higherthan our ways, his thoughts
higher than our thoughts.
We're still learning andgrowing, and so we have to
assume that there will comeseasons where we will be
challenged because we messed up.

Speaker 1 (40:09):
Yeah, you know there's a Barna does a lot of
story stories, uh stories, a lotof um studies on a lot of
things.
Um, but, uh, they do, they do alot of uh statistics and things
do a lot of surveys aroundchurch.
60% of young adults that wereraised in church uh, often end

(40:32):
up walking away.
That's, that's the realityright, and often it's because
they feel like they didn't havethe space to ask tough questions
.

Speaker 2 (40:43):
Wow.

Speaker 1 (40:44):
And so what you're saying, this idea of challenging
the church, asking, asking realquestions, um is a reason when
people don't feel like they cando that, when you don't open the
door for accountability.
That's really what we'retalking about here.
You, we end up, um, we end uplosing uh, we, we've lost a

(41:05):
generation.
Right, they have.
I mean, we have not lost it.
Well, all right, we are.
We have, we have temporarily uh, been separated from a lot of a
generation, and I, and, andthere are statistics saying that
there is a trickle back, butthe re.
But the reality is, though atleast I know, I hear a lot of um

(41:27):
.
I work with young people, we'reteenagers, and one of the
things that I have found to bethe best um way to explore ideas
is to ask questions.
Like, I ask more, I try to askmore questions than I do, to
give answers, to help them toactually make sense of certain
things, and we just were notencouraged.

(41:50):
It's not, and, again, I didn'tgrow up with anybody telling me
don't ask questions.
Now, some people did, somepeople was like you, don't
question God, like that was,that was like the no-transcript
don't question your mama, youdon't question your daddy, yeah,
your grandmama, your auntie,which is like we want to what,
no question, was a veryunhealthy you know, that's just
a toxic way of of of trying to,you know, teach, I get it.

(42:11):
It's like, you know, there'ssome things you just won't
understand.
I understand, understand theprinciple behind it, but if you
don't, if you're not, if that'snot broken down, then you, you,
you know, you end up, um,allowing for, uh, this, this
resentment, almost to build uplike okay, or just mistrust,
distrust Like I don't, okay,well, what are they not telling

(42:33):
me?
Or where are they trying tohide?
Or, you know, what is it thatthey are trying to?
Like?
They don't, they don't knowcertain things and they're
trying to make me believesomething that doesn't make any
sense and nobody will explain itto me, like those are things,
and so I'm just, I'm forget it,like I'm not even going to
continue fooling with this whenI get out of here.
I'm out of here, and there are alot of people that felt that
way, and and I think that wehave to be honest and we have to

(42:54):
open up the door for askingquestions.
Sometimes we won't have theanswers A lot of answers we
don't have but the questionsshould be asked and engaged,
even if it's not going to afinal concrete answer, it's just
a matter of being open towondering about things that are

(43:16):
really just, you know, above ourunderstanding.
I mean, there are some thingswe're just never going to
understand.
Yeah, I just I think that thatthat is.
It's a salient point to me,because I I think that we could
help a lot of people who trulyare lost by by engaging

(43:38):
questions that haven't beenengaged before.

Speaker 2 (43:41):
Listen.
If any of the seasoned saints,any of the middle adults, all
right, my churchy middle adultshear me.
Hear me.
If you want some practiceanswering hard questions, I have
a suggestion for you Go servein the children's church, go
serve, go teach in the youthSunday school.

(44:04):
Okay, I've been doing it since2014.
Let me tell you, these kidswill ask you some questions and
you'll be like what.
One time we were teaching onbaptism and the little baby said
so, wait a minute.
So if I go down into the waterand I leave my old man down

(44:25):
there, I leave my old persondown there and I come up a new
person.
This is what this nine-year-oldsaid in the middle of Sunday
school.
She said so if I get mad andneed to tell somebody that I'm
mad, can I go back down into thewater and go find that old
person and bring them back up,literally okay.
They were like how can I findthe old man?

(44:48):
How can I get him back?
Listen?
let me tell you something Inever know what.
I'm walking into Sunday toSunday.
We don't know what have.
You can get a child tounderstand that you have upped
your teaching game.

Speaker 1 (45:22):
And, quite frankly, you can explain it to anybody
and it's like that is actually.
You make a great point.
It is the hardest thing toexplain a lot of things we learn
in church to young people, toyoung people.
But if you can do it the way wesay it put the cookies on the
bottom shelf, put it withintheir reach where they can grab

(45:43):
it right so they got to climb upno ladder and get it.
Put it on the level where theycan get it, get on their level,
explain it there and if you canfigure, if you can do that with
a child, then you can do thatwith an adult, because really
we're not that much further thanthan children.
We have a lot of the samequestions.
Let me tell you something.
Yeah, I bet an adult had thatquestion.
Hey, can I go back and get himbecause I really kind of need

(46:07):
her right now.

Speaker 2 (46:07):
But ain't it, but it looks different.
Right, like they might besaying like can I go back and
get it?
But they're also saying will Ilose?
Who lose the part of myselfthat I've identified with not
being perfect?
That's right.
And trying to strive forperfection and trying to strive
to be righteous and holy and tobe kind of like at the apex of

(46:32):
Christendom right To have theperfect persona Will I lose the
ability to make mistakes?
Will I lose the ability to notalways get it right, or will I
have to continue to contend withthe part of me that that isn't

(46:53):
always light and right?
That's so interesting.
How do I contend with darkness?

Speaker 1 (46:58):
That's so interesting to me and I get that.
But it's like what is thechurch doing wrong that people
have that thought?
I mean because immediately I'mthinking about Romans seven,
romans, chapter seven what Paulis is essentially having this
internal.
He's expressing an internalthought, not internal.
He's expressing an internalthought, not internal internal

(47:18):
battle with himself of you know,I want to do what's right, but
I don't.
And when I, you know the thingsthat I want to do, I don't do
the things I don't want to do, Ido and just this.
And he goes through this litanyof this battle of you know this
, this is who I was, this is whoI want to be.
This battle of you know this,this is who I was, this is who I

(47:39):
want to be, and I don't reallyknow how to handle that tension
and and so, and.
Then he outlines that realityand then he ends it with this
idea of um in Romans, romans,chapter eight, that there's no
condemnation for him who isChrist, jesus, because when
you're in, when you're in Christ, that um, the struggle is what

(48:01):
makes you uh, uh, let me say thebest way to say it the struggle
is what gives you, is whatmakes you know whether or not
you are in Christ or not.
If the struggle isn't there,then you like that there is.
That that's, that's a sign thatChrist is working in you,

(48:22):
because you always going to haveto contend with the old person.
That old person didn't go away.
That old person isn't going togo away, but it doesn't rule you
anymore, it doesn't control youanymore, but it's still who you
are because you're still human.
You are on earth.
You won't have to contend withit, but Christ gives you the um,
the strength through the Holyspirit to actually live and not

(48:47):
be controlled by who you used tobe.
And so this idea that I'm goingto totally lose that it it's.
I know that's so interestingbecause I think we have to be
much more clear about that.
And in the church and thatchurch, I want to say clear
about it, in the church.
I'm going to stop saying thatbecause I think that the church

(49:09):
is clear about it.
I think our issue is going backto what we said earlier.
We don't take what we learn inchurch outside of it.
We don't apply it.
Earlier.
We don't take what we learn inchurch outside of it, we don't
apply it and we don't talk aboutit with each other the way that
we do on Sunday.
We don't repeat theconversation, so you forget
about it.

Speaker 2 (49:26):
Yeah, and I think you have to make the word revolving
in your life, not somethingthat you walk in and walk out of
, but something that's walkingwith you, and a lot of times
that's how we treat church, youknow, and I think that that's
kind of sometimes, depending on,like, what your childhood

(49:47):
narrative was, that's how maybechurch was represented in your
home, was represented in yourhome.
You know, I just had a thought,you know, because, again, my
family, again a lot of us, wentto church but would not have
probably considered ourselves tobe like, super religious, like

(50:07):
you know, like I, to be honest,I still have to remind myself to
say grace.
I'd be like you know, whereasfor a lot of people that's like,
hey, you know, how could younot pray over your food?
And I'm like because I did notpray over my food until my 20s
Like it just wasn't a thing, youknow, and so.
But I remember when I came backfrom college, I remember

(50:28):
visiting my cousins and you knowI had been to visit my cousins.
I took Ruth Abigail to visit mycousins.
Okay, listen, all right, mycousins, you know it's a good
time, you know it's a fun time,they're fun people.
Anyways, I was over there andyou know I was just sitting down
chilling, talking, and thenthey, literally they kept saying
like they was like, well, youknow, jaquita is a Christian.

(50:51):
And I was looking around likeI'm sorry what, and they was
like, yeah, yeah, because youknow, jaquita's a Christian.
And I was like, aren't we?
But we all identify asChristians, but for them, the
lifestyle of a Christian not thebelief, but the lifestyle of a

(51:13):
Christian this was before I wasa minister, this was before I
think this might've even beenbefore I was even a religion,
major Right, but the lifestyleof a Christian to them was very
distinct from the belief in Godand I had to.
It took me aback because Irealized that I was.

(51:34):
You know, now I look back and Iwas like, oh yeah, the Lord set
me apart.
But I felt alienated.
I was like my family doesn'tknow what to do with me right
now, and not just like my youknow, direct family, but like
the cousins, my age, my peers,were like we can't really fool

(51:55):
with you because of your notbecause of your belief, because
nobody in that room would haveclaimed to not believe in God.
And I think that that was adistinct point that I had to
learn was that I would berecognized not by what I said
but by what people perceivedfrom me said, but by what people

(52:20):
perceive from me.
And it took me a while to beable to contend with the
perceptions of other peopleabout how I carried my faith
versus how I saw myself.
Like there was an identityshift from me accepting that,
okay, I am a believer and thisis the life that I'm committing
myself to, the way I perceivethat versus the way other people

(52:42):
perceive that.
That was a hard time for me.

Speaker 1 (52:48):
What things?
Because I think this speaks toanother unlearning point that we
talked about.
This idea of your amount ofchurch attendance or your
closeness to the church doesn'tequate to holiness or
righteousness.
It doesn't make you more rightwith God because you spend more
time in church.

(53:09):
Those two things don't match,and those are things I think
both of us have to unle, had tounlearn.
I think that what the pointyou're making is very
interesting, um, because youhave a lot of people who spend a
ton of time in church, but theymay not have said that you know
, that grew up in it, that spenta lot of time in it.

(53:29):
I know there's um, you know mybrother, who you know, and he,
he would not say that he was aChristian, um, and, but he, he
has high risk.
He believes in God, has highrespect for the church.
He would not call himself aChristian, though, and so he was
actually hanging out with acouple of um, a couple of guys

(53:50):
who are, uh, pastor's kids, andI remember him telling me that
he was like yo, they are wild.
He was like I don't eat, I'mnot.
Even the stuff they weretalking about was like.
He was like yo man, like I meanhe was, he was blown away,

(54:11):
right, and, and let me, let mebe distinct.
They're not just pastors, kids,but they're pastors in the
church, so, so like, and he wasblown away and he was just like
yo, like it's, it's crazy whatwhat they were telling me they
were involved in.
And he was like I would neverdo something like that, I would

(54:35):
never be involved in somethinglike that.
But he doesn't claim to be aChristian, but these are two
pastors and I mean you knowthey're around the same age,
they're in our generation.
I know that's not a shocker,probably to most people.
It was to me when I first gotto Divinity School, because I

(54:56):
know we talked a lot about that,um, but, but I make that point
to say this idea ofrighteousness and being right
with God is not an automaticequate.
It doesn't automatically equateto how much time or how
connected you are to the church,uh, but the lifestyle piece is
so interesting because peopleeven outside the church look way

(55:18):
more at your lifestyle than howmuch you go to church.
Like that's like they peoplewho are not like I'm cool on
church, I don't even.
I don't even fool with all thatchristianity stuff.
I'm believing god.
You know he's my he's.
You know I respect god, he's mylord and savior.
People will say that and andcool, no problem.
But they don't necessarilyconsider us to be a Christian.

(55:38):
But they look at lifestylebefore they look at church
attendance.
But people in the church holdour church attendance up and I
know, like in you know, growingup I definitely was in that camp
.
Like you know, the amount ofknowledge I had, the amount of
church I did made me closer toGod, like I had that it wasn't

(55:59):
something I said out loud but itcertainly was something I think
I really believed.
I used to struggle when I when Iwas, when I would pray at night
because they told me to pray,so I prayed.
I was very much a do you knowI'm going to do what they tell
me to do?
I really didn't.
I'm cool doing what you tell meto do.
That's cool.
So I used to pray.
They say you should pray andyou should particularly ask God

(56:19):
to forgive you of your sins.
And I remember struggling ifwhat did I do wrong today?
I couldn't figure it out.
I really did like legit, I waslike I don't know that I did
anything wrong today, but Iwould try to find something,
because I was like, surely I did, but I can't tell you what it
was.
So I I learned how to pray God,but give me for the things I

(56:39):
don't forgot I did.
I just cause I don't, I don'tknow, I don't know what I did,
but I said that because Ifigured there was something
wrong.
I did, but but in my heart ofhearts I really felt like I
didn't do anything wrong.
I did everything right.
I'm doing everything they toldme to do Like, and so so I had,
I had to unlearn that, that thatbeing being close with God was

(57:02):
not, did not equate being closewith the church, and I think you
know that that my, my, I thinkthe thing that grieves me
honestly about a lot of peoplewho grew up in church is that we
learned more about church thanwe did God.

Speaker 2 (57:26):
Y'all, y'all, you know, I, when I was in college,
you know, I told you, I toldy'all about how the Lord would
tell me constantly rest in mylove, rest in my love, rest in
my love.
I remember it.
It dawned on me so clearly howwell I knew God as king, but how
little I knew of God as father,because I was okay with him
ruling and reigning.

(57:47):
But I could not understand love, devotion and relationship.
I articulated it but I didn'tlive in it.
Yeah, I lived in.
Well, I follow the Lord, I'mobedient.
Okay, I don't, I don't breakrules.
I was very, uh, very attentiveto learning order and learning

(58:12):
what people thought I should do,but my relationship with God
was I was growing in my gifts,but I was not growing.
I was growing in relationshipwith God, but it was
transactional.
Right, right, right you know itwas a thank you, lord, for my
blessings.
Hallelujah, yeah, oh, thank you, Lord.

(58:32):
You protected me because Ialmost got in an accident.
But Lord, the Lord loves mebecause he protected me.
But when you learn?
I think one of the biggestthings that I unlearned,
especially as a middle adultlooking back at my twenties, was
learning that God loved me whenI was flawed and not when I was

(58:56):
perfect and not just when I wasperfect.

Speaker 1 (59:00):
Romans 5, 8, right God demonstrated his love for us
, and that while we were stillsinners While we were yet
sinners, and you know, by theway, that was one of the ones we
had to memorize, obviously,yeah, so, but, but, like to your
point, I didn't get that when Iwas memorizing it, I that did
not click with me, like I didn't, because I didn't.
I'm with you, man, like that,that truly um, that really was,

(59:26):
uh, um, something that, thatthat I had to grow into as well,
like God loves me, loved mebefore I decided to love him.
To be honest with you, that'sreally what broke me and that's
what brought me closer to God.
I mean, you and I were we, we Iwas in college, we were friends

(59:49):
, and I had this moment.
I was by myself in my room, um,and this is like the summer
before sophomore, no, the summerafter sophomore year, I think,
um and uh and I.
I had this moment where I waslike, um, I was just, I was

(01:00:09):
lying and I kept thinking aboutthe fact that that very thing,
right, I knew my real heart.
I was starting to get familiarwith my real heart and not the
heart I let everybody else see.
And it hit me like, in spite ofall that, I had all these

(01:00:33):
things I didn't deserve,including these friends who put
up with me, who I never reallyunderstood true friendship
before, and God blessed me withfriends that understood me.
I was at a school I reallydidn't, really probably
shouldn't have gotten into.
I mean, I was good but mygrades were not as good as
y'all's and so, you know, Iwasn't sure I was supposed to
even get in.
I realized like the family Ihad, the education I had, the

(01:00:56):
opportunities I had the people Iknew, all of that was given in
spite of me understanding who Ireally was.
And when I connected that truth, it broke me.
And I think what broke me was Iwas like yo, like there are way
better people that should begetting this life, cause I know

(01:01:16):
of other people who probablylove God more, pray God, pray to
God more and more sincere thanme, who are living in conditions
that I couldn't survive and so,but why me?
And that's what broke me.
And, and I remember after, um, Iremember you and I talked not
too long after that and you toldme that you heard something

(01:01:39):
different and I and I I saidyeah, like I feel like this,
this was my, this is, this is me, um, I wouldn't even say
recommitting.
I think committing for thefirst time I knew a lot.
I was in the motions, I did mything, I was good at what I did,
but I had never reallycommitted.
And this was me like committingmy heart to God not just my

(01:02:01):
mind and my actions, but myheart and um and so that that
was.
But that's what broke me islike it's not transactional.

Speaker 2 (01:02:10):
You don't have anything to transact Like, wow,
you know what I'm saying, thatpart when you realize how
unbalanced the scales are, that,like you know it is not.
I spent so long.
You know.
I remember, ever since I was,ever since I gave my life to the

(01:02:32):
Lord, like ever since I joinedthat gospel choir, people
started pulling me to the sideand saying there's an anointing
on you, there's a gift on you.
I see the light of God shine.
It got to the point where Icould spot them.
They would get that little lookin their eye like, and I was
like, oh Lord, they better come,tell me something.
And I would start scurrying.
I remember I used to be one,because we used to travel with

(01:02:54):
the gospel choir and we would goto these different schools and
there was always somebody atanother school who was going to
pull me to the side to tell me Iwas anointed and gifted.
And did I?
Did?
I know I was supposed to be apreacher.
I mean, the Lord would not letup and at this time in my life I
wasn't trying to be nobody'spreacher, okay, I just wanted to

(01:03:17):
be saved.
But I remember I spent so longtelling the Lord I'll come when
I'm good enough.
I'll come when I'm good enough.
I'll come when I deserve it.
I'll come when I'm worthy, I'llcome when I fix this or when I
fix that.

(01:03:38):
And there was, like thisinvisible warfare that not only
did I believe it, but there wasa warfare that was set up to
keep me in that mindset, becauseit was always something
happening that seemed to confirmthat I wasn't ready, that I
wasn't good enough, that Ishouldn't do it, that God didn't

(01:04:00):
want me preaching or teachingor leading anybody.
There was one point where Ifelt like I wasn't even good
enough to touch people, and itwasn't because I had done
anything so bad, it was justthat this, this feeling of
unworthiness, that didn't evencome from the church, that

(01:04:21):
didn't even come from um, itcame from my own.
You know what I learned in myhealing class, which, if y'all
haven't done healing the heartyet, how that your girl, like my
um the coach I did it under she, she'll run you a session real
quick.
But when I, what I learned wasthat there were needs in me that

(01:04:42):
had gone unattended and I hadto, I had to learn.
I didn't realize how much itimpacted my faith life and that
I needed healing in order to seeGod correctly.
Yeah, that's good and so thatwas a journey.
And we don't realize sometimes.

(01:05:03):
You know when, any area let mesay this any area of your life
that you stressing and strivingand trying to be perfect in, you
got an imbalance there and youhave to recognize.
You have to recognize you haveto glory in your infirmities,
you have to say, lord, mystrength is made, your strength

(01:05:26):
is made perfect in my weakness,and I have to recognize that I'm
not going to have it all, but Ican submit it all.

Speaker 1 (01:05:40):
Man, that's really good and I wish that the church,
I wish I got more of thisgrowing up, and if I did, it's
not what I took hold's, not whatI um, what I took hold to.
But even like in, you know, inBible class at school, like when
I was growing up, um, talkingmore about the um, talking more

(01:06:04):
about the imperfections of, likethese, you know, kind of
glorified biblical characters,right, david and Esther and
Daniel, and you know, you know,pete, all the disciples and all
the different people that we, welike to to lift them up right

(01:06:24):
there, and and and these great,these great people.
It wasn't until I got olderthat I started to hear more
about how imperfect they were,but growing up, I heard more
about how not perfect, but whatthey did, that was great, right,

(01:06:46):
those areas.
And it creates a false goal,right, like.
The goal is like okay, I wantto be as brave as David, right,
I want to be as committed asDaniel, I want to be as bold as
Peter, right, I want to do all Iwant to.
That's what I'm going to try todo, right, and I'm going to be

(01:07:10):
as learned as Paul.
Whatever I mean, whatever it isright and we don't.
We are not often, I don't thinkoften enough Well, I would say
I was not often enough remindedof the weaknesses of these
people.
Now, you know some things.
It's like, you know, yeah, yourstory of David and Bathsheba.

(01:07:31):
You know David killed herhusband, slept with her.
You know some things.
It's like, you know, yeah, yourstory of David and Bathsheba.
You know David killed herhusband, slept with her.
You know all that.
You know it's bad, it's realbad.
Right, you hear that, got it,but but like that.
First of all, that wasn't theonly issue that David had.
There was a lot of other things.
When you look deep into hisstory, like that that there was,

(01:07:52):
there was, there was realproblems with like he had, he
had struggles with insecurities,he had weaknesses he had.
You know all all that, right,we talk about the wisdom of
Solomon and also and we glorifyhis wisdom of Solomon In the
streets I mean my God, in them,streets, I mean my god like in

(01:08:19):
them, you know, and and and,completely overrun by his, uh,
by his lust, quite frankly, likethat's, that's, that's what,
that's what that was.
So it's like, okay, well, what?
Like the same guy that's wise,can't control his, his, his, you
know, doesn't choose to controlhis sexual desires, right so
like.
But those are tensions that Idon't remember dealing with in

(01:08:42):
the church growing up, when wewere hearing these stories, and
I think if I'd done that more,I'd spent less time on the
things that were great about meand started to understand that,
yeah, there are things and giftsthat you have and there are
things that you've done that aregood, but that's not what I

(01:09:07):
want you to glorify.
The idea is you can't do enoughof that to deserve me.
That's the whole thing, right,you can't do enough to deserve
what God can give you.
But in the church it felt likethat was my job was to do enough
to deserve.
And even though I could tell youtheologically that that was

(01:09:29):
incorrect, my actions did notsay that, um, and and it it
turns people off and it makes,it confuses people, um and I
think that's again going back toyour experience like with your,
with your family, like it, theydon't have an expectation of
somebody.
It's like, no, if you know you,you this is we different?

(01:09:51):
And it's like, well, not really.
And the reality that we're'renot that different.
We might do different things,but we are not different.
Yeah, I have just decided toput, uh, put my, I've decided to
release the fact that I amimperfect into, into into God
and into Christ.

(01:10:11):
Maybe you it, but we're stillthe same imperfect.

Speaker 2 (01:10:15):
Like, uh, to be fair, at that point in time, I
probably wasn't.
Um, that's fair.
Yeah, you know, like I, and Ithink that that's something that
I I I probably have unlearnedthe most of is how to
communicate not only communicatefaith, but, in meekness and

(01:10:36):
humility, continuing to walkforward, and how I relate to
people who don't relate to Godin the way that I do.
You know, I think that therewas a time where I was
approaching people with the youneed to get it right, all right,
and here's what right is.

(01:10:57):
Yep, you know, but it was thediversity of Divinity School
that, although I still do havequite a keen eye for right and
wrong, ok, but it was.
It was when I found, when I wasin divinity school, I worked at
a United Methodist church and I,you know, although my church is

(01:11:17):
interdenominational, like myhome church, we're very much
Baptocostal, more Pentecostalthan anything else.
But I spent all my time indivinity school working for the
United Methodist Church.
I worked at the WesleyFoundation at the Tennessee
State University OK, I do claimthem.

(01:11:39):
Ok, they're part of my story.
And I work for the GeneralBoard of Discipleship, I'm like
working for the governing bodyof the United Methodist Church
and it was working in thoseplaces that I learned that God
doesn't have to only move inspaces that look like mine.
That's good.
A few other pastors and mentorsthat impacted me and the way

(01:12:16):
that I see ministry and the waythat I interact with God's
people, as much as ReverendMichelle Morton, who was my
supervisor at the WesleyFoundation, and we did not see
eye to eye on everythingdoctrinal there know, like there
were some things like.
I remember we had a wholeconversation about communion one
time where we, we, we had to,we had to come to terms with.

(01:12:38):
I work here, okay, but you know, and I'm going to abide by the
order of the house, but you know, but learning to respect each
other in difference and hold upthe gifts that God plays taught
me that the church was universal.
You know what I'm saying.
If we, if I, were to go to achurch in Africa right now, they

(01:13:01):
would probably like shun some.
They'd be like y'all, not forreal, yeah, y'all, y'all know,
y'all ain't got it all together.
You go, you know.
You hear people say stuff likethat.
If you go to a church in Ghana,you know.
If you go to a church wherepeople have different life
experiences.
I learned that the church wasso much bigger than my very

(01:13:23):
small experience with it, and Ilearned that God.
I learned that God wants us tointeract and engage with each
other and not isolate ourselvesaway from each other.

Speaker 1 (01:13:38):
I think we have to hit this last point because I
just think it's really importantthat unlearning that church
will give me everything I need,and I think that you know we're
kind of seeing that a lot now.
Uh, but churches, uh, and Iwish I, I wish I wrote it down.

(01:13:58):
But Dr Darius Daniels, he, hesays it in a way I really like,
like, um, uh, church will, huh,how do you say it?
Essentially, he said he hasthis I, I gotta find a job.
I've tried to put in a commentor something if I can bring it
up, but essentially, like youknow, I churches, church can't

(01:14:18):
give me everything.
Right, there are some thingsthat that I have to get.
I have to get outside of itbecause it's not designed to
give me everything we talkedabout earlier.
Like this idea of communitymost community, I mean church.
You know church service, thatwe you know.
Like this idea of communitymost community, I mean church.
You know church service, thatwe you know that a lot of people

(01:14:39):
attend, most people simplyattend that on Sunday mornings,
and then you go and you do yourlife Right, and it's like that's
great.
But it's akin to watching aYouTube video and on on cooking
and then never cooking, like youknow.
So you've watched and you'velearned how to cook, but you
never cook.
We didn't learn how to cook,and so I think that we have to,

(01:15:02):
but you don't do that without.
Even if you do cook, if nobodyelse tastes your food, how do
you know that it tastes good?
Right, my Lord, it is acommunal experience.
It has to happen outside.
I was waiting, that was good,that was excellent timing, like
it was like right there.

(01:15:22):
I mean if you had waited toolong, we'd have missed it, but
you didn't, yeah, you didn'tmiss it, uh, but but yeah, I
think.
I think like understanding thatyou know we have to have
community.
And then there are expertiseoutside the church, such as
therapy, counseling, all thesethings.
Some churches have them, butthat's not coming from the
pulpit.
You know and understanding thatthere are things and processes

(01:15:47):
that you need.
There might be, you know, theremight be classes that you need
to take in order to understandsome things about yourself.
All those different things right, and I would caution anyone
because I love folk I wouldcaution anyone who attends a
church, who has found most oftheir church experience in a

(01:16:08):
place that would have youbelieve that they can give you
everything because they can't,and that that becomes
manipulation.
And that's where a lot ofpeople have lived in a
manipulative state with thechurch that they have either
grown up in or or have haveattached themselves to at some
point.
Where you don't need anythingelse, right, where you don't

(01:16:30):
need anything else right.
That's a lie and that's not.
That is not true, and and it'sit's um.
So if, if that is uh, is the isthe underlying message?
Um, I would, I would ask somequestions.
I would ask some questions andand start to diversify where you

(01:16:51):
get the information you getfrom, because a lot of people
get caught up in that, like alot of people get caught up in
this, and this false narrativeof my church has everything I
talked to my past abouteverything.
You don't need to be talkingyour past about everything.
You.
You need to diversify yourvoices.
You need to diversify yourvoice.

Speaker 2 (01:17:10):
yeah, yeah, don't stop talking to you, no, no, no,
I'm sorry, I should.
That's not what I'm saying.
I'm saying that should be theonly.

Speaker 1 (01:17:15):
Ruth about to have y'all out here.
No, but I'm serious though,like, but I'm saying it
shouldn't be the only person youtalk to.
I'm Irish, to say it like that.

Speaker 2 (01:17:22):
Yeah, yeah, have life , have life, have life, and that
more abundantly.
You know, seek an abundant lifewhere your relationship with
God is the underpinning ofeverything you experience.
Your relationship with God isthe foundation of your

(01:17:47):
experience with church.
Your relationship with God isthe foundation of your
experience with your job, yourcareer, your vocation, your
family, your friendships.
Your relationship with God hasto be the underpinning of it,
and I think that for a long time, we allowed church to speak to
our life instead of allowing ourlife to speak to church.

Speaker 1 (01:18:11):
So, allow.

Speaker 2 (01:18:12):
Come from the inside out, Because that will also make
you a better servant.
You will go back into the houseof worship and you will go into
that place intending to give,instead of always thinking that
I got to come here and get fixed.
I got to come here and getfixed.

(01:18:32):
I got to come here and receive.
Some of us some of us not allof us some of us have been in
the same spot for too long andyou have to allow God to flip
you from being just merely arecipient to being a key player
in what is happening in thatbuilding, especially middle
adults, because we are at theseason now where we should be

(01:18:56):
finding ourselves in positionswhere we are beginning to serve.
I saw this Instagram video ofthe girl who said that she knows
that she moved to the nextseason of her life, because
she's no longer just you knowfirst name she's sister.
So-and-so Okay, it's time,middle adults, for you to become

(01:19:16):
sister and brother, so-and-soAmen.

Speaker 1 (01:19:20):
Amen, hallelujah, wow , all right, we ended that on
exactly the note we needed toend it on.
Well, folks, thanks forlistening.
Thanks, queda.
I will say this is miles betterthan the first one Miles.
Miles, I mean if we hadreleased what we had, y'all, I
don't even know if y'all wouldstill follow us.
Bro, it was pretty bad.

(01:19:40):
We was all over the place itwas not that bad.

Speaker 2 (01:19:43):
It wasn't that bad, it really wasn't that bad.
We just weren't content and wewanted represent this,
especially this particular topic.

Speaker 1 (01:19:55):
Well, I wish I had a little more voice to give y'all,
but I gave you what I had.
Thank you, Jaquita.
Thank you for sacrificing yourvoice.
It's a sacrifice for the peoplewe appreciate it, that's all
right, we appreciate it.
She resisted y'all, but I madeher do it.
Yeah, because Ruth is a tyrant.

Speaker 2 (01:20:08):
Okay, and it wasn't even that I was resisting.
I just wanted Ruth to be likelisten, I know, I understand, I
feel what you feel, but we haveto go.
And Ruth was like I don't carewhat your voice is doing.

Speaker 1 (01:20:22):
You know what the you know what the you got to record
the two lowest.
You know.
If you ever take a spiritualgifts test, you know what my two
lowest ones are.
My top two lowest ones, let'sall take a guess, go ahead.
Hospitality.
Hospitality and mercy they'remy two lowest.

(01:20:44):
What do?

Speaker 2 (01:20:45):
you want me to do?

Speaker 1 (01:20:45):
Okay, y'all pray for me.
Y'all pray for me.
It's not my strongest gift, soI apologize if I was
inconsiderate.

Speaker 2 (01:20:53):
I told y'all that's such a teacher, that's such a
teacher.
No hospitality, it is no mercymy my teaching and
administrative.

Speaker 1 (01:21:02):
I absolutely so.
So thank you, queda.
We appreciate you for uhsacrificing uh for the people
and we appreciate y'alllistening.
And again, y'all, if this isvaluable, share it with somebody
else.
We want to keep growing ourcommunity.
All right, that's it.
Let's keep unlearning togetherso that we can experience more

(01:21:26):
burrito.
Thank you once again forlistening to the unlearned
podcast.
We would love to hear yourcomments and your feedback about
the episode.
Feel free to follow us onfacebook and instagram and to
let us know what you think.
We're looking forward to thenext time, when we are able to

(01:21:50):
unlearn together to move forwardtowards freedom.
See you then.