September 7, 2025 • 56 mins
The word "narcissist" gets tossed around constantly these days, but what does it really mean? When does ordinary selfishness cross the line into something more sinister and destructive?
In this revealing conversation, Melissa draws from her specialized training under Dr. Ramani Durvasula to explain the clinical reality of Narcissistic Personality Disorder. Far from simply being self-centered, true narcissists display at least five of nine specific traits including entitlement, exploitation of others, and a profound lack of empathy that affects every relationship in their lives.
What makes narcissistic abuse so insidious is how invisible it often remains. Behind their charming public personas, narcissists systematically strip away their victims' identity and self-worth, creating a reality where the victim feels crazy for questioning what's happening. "These people don't want others to see who they truly are," Melissa explains, detailing how victims develop "betrayal blindness" – an inability to recognize abuse from someone who's supposed to love them.
Perhaps most heartbreaking is the generational impact. Children raised by narcissists either become extreme people-pleasers or adopt the same destructive patterns, perpetuating cycles of trauma. Through powerful examples and expert insights, we explore why narcissists rarely seek help, why traditional therapy often fails them, and how survivors can begin reclaiming their identity and reality.
Whether you suspect someone in your life might be narcissistic or you're simply curious about this frequently misunderstood condition, this episode offers clarity, validation, and hope. Evil flourishes in darkness, but together we can bring these patterns into the light. Join us every Tuesday at 6am for new episodes, or subscribe through our website for early access and exclusive content.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Evan (00:00):
Welcome to another episode of the Unmentionables.
I'm Evan with Melissa, asalways.
Welcome, melissa.
Thanks, so good to see you.
Melissa (00:09):
Because I didn't see you most of my day.
Evan (00:12):
Well, we spend a lot of time together, that's for sure.
Melissa (00:16):
We sure do.
Evan (00:18):
Just to let everybody know , we will be dropping new
episodes on a regular basis onTuesdays at 6 am, but for those
of you who become subscribers,you'll get it two days earlier.
Melissa (00:31):
What do they have to do to become a subscriber?
Because, if they're anythinglike me, they really don't know
anything about this.
Evan (00:37):
Just go to our website podcasttheunmentionablespodcom
and you'll see the subscriberslink and right there you cancom
and you'll see the subscriberslink and right there you can
subscribe and you'll get accessearlier.
You'll get access tosubscribers only content.
We're going to do someinterviews with your staff and
with yourself right and givepeople some inside information
(00:58):
about who we are and why we dothis.
Melissa (01:01):
So if they're going to subscribe, what does it cost
them?
Is it like their firstborn ordo they get to pick?
Evan (01:10):
No, it's not their firstborn at all, it's $3.
Melissa (01:14):
Because we don't want any more children.
That's right.
Evan (01:16):
That's right.
$3 a month gets you that earlyaccess.
Melissa (01:20):
Awesome.
I know I've had some peopleasking me what we're going to do
and how we're going to do it.
So, if you're here and you'relistening, the Unmentionables.
Evan (01:28):
Podcast.
You can also get us through ourwebsite.
(01:51):
You can send us a message thereabout things you might want to
hear us talk about.
Melissa (01:55):
Well, and I know one of the things that we talked about
wanting to do is even somecall-ins or just answering
questions from people and doingsome subscriber episodes that
were more oriented like that.
Evan (02:09):
Absolutely.
We want this to be a relationalshow, not just something that
we do Right, we want you guys tobe involved in it as well.
So I want you to feel free toreach out to us, to contact us,
and we want to talk about thingsthat you want to hear us
talking about.
We sure do.
People might be tuning in forthe first time, melissa.
They may not know you.
(02:29):
They may not know much aboutyou or your practice or what you
do.
Maybe they found us throughtheir favorite podcast
application because they can getus anywhere.
Sure, they might have found usthrough social media and they
may not know this about you, butyou are one of an elite class
of clinicians very few people inthe world who have studied
under Dr Romani DiversolaCorrect and have become a
(02:53):
certified narcissistic abusetreatment clinician.
Why don't you tell us a littlebit about what that means and
why it's important when we talkabout our topic today, which is
narcissism?
Melissa (03:01):
Sure, you know, I think it's a topic that's often
misconstrued.
There's a lot ofmisunderstanding and misuse of
the term.
Honestly, and as a mentalhealth clinician, if we don't
know about antagonisticpersonalities, it can actually
do a lot of damage to people.
(03:22):
There's a lot of people that goto counseling and feel even
more confused than when theystarted or, for example, with
couples being able to identifywhat is antagonistic.
Otherwise, we really riskmaking things far worse than
(03:45):
even when somebody came in tostart therapy.
So you know, my background wasin doing trauma and treating all
kinds of different trauma, andmost trauma therapists get there
from learned experiences andlife and our own stuff, and it's
(04:06):
no different for those of usthat specialize in narcissism.
It's something that we'veprobably come into contact with
and it's impacted us prettydeeply.
Evan (04:14):
People throw around the term narcissism all the time.
You see it on social media, yousee it in the news.
You see it all over the place.
Why don't you help us definenarcissism?
Because I think there'sprobably a difference, maybe,
between what people might see intheir day-to-day lives as
narcissism and what a clinicaldefinition of narcissism or a
(04:34):
disorder related to narcissismmight be.
Melissa (04:37):
Sure, it's interesting because when we look at any
variety of things, it changesover time.
So you might have an experiencethat gives you anxiety, and so
you have anxiety for a period ofa couple hours or even minutes,
(04:59):
and when we don't address thatthen we turn into an anxious
person.
So now it's not just onescenario, it's a part of who I
am, a trait, a character trait,and then in the trauma world we
say that when we don't deal withthat it turns into a physical
manifestation and we can't justavoid things.
(05:22):
So when we look at a diagnosislike narcissistic personality
disorder, we're not just talkingabout one trait, or this person
is so selfish or everything isabout them, they think they're
special or entitled.
We're talking about aconsistent pattern of conduct
(05:47):
that can be traced all the wayback into childhood or
adolescence.
And again, it's not somethingwhere they're just a jerk at
work and pay attention to me atwork.
You see it at work.
You see it at their kids,sports.
You see it at home, inrelationships.
You see it among theirfriendships or lack of
(06:09):
friendships, because especiallynarcissistic personality
disorder impacts socialfunctioning.
These people don't want peopleto see who they are.
So from a clinical perspective.
Everybody has a trait or twothat's included in the
definition of narcissisticpersonality disorder.
(06:31):
The question is does it rise toa level of impact and of
consistency of their behavioraland thought patterns that we can
actually say this is a disorderand we don't take that lightly?
Evan (06:50):
Can you give us an idea of what some of those traits are?
Melissa (06:53):
Sure, I mean I did just name a few.
One of the big ones is what wesee as entitlement.
I'm special and I should havewhat I want.
Special and I should have whatI want.
This is that person that goesinto the restaurant and will
complain that the carrot shredsare missing off their salad.
So take my salad back and makeit right how they treat the
(07:17):
people around them where you canjust tell that they believe
they are more important or morevaluable as a human.
Evan (07:25):
Does that mean that everybody who returns a food
item is a narcissist?
Melissa (07:29):
No, I think it's how you do it though.
Evan (07:31):
Okay, fair.
Melissa (07:41):
But another one is just exaggerating achievements,
changing those stories to makeyourself seem like you've
accomplished more, done more and, in the broader frame of
reference, it just isn't whatthey're saying.
Evan (07:53):
Don't we all kind of do that on our resumes, though?
When we write our resumes,don't we play up a little bit
what we've accomplished, andmaybe that's just putting an
emphasis on something.
Maybe it's talking about howthis thing that you worked on
was so important and in realityit was probably less important
(08:14):
than you make it out to be Notsaying that, you're lying,
necessarily, but people all thetime embellish on their resumes
to get looked at at a new job.
Does that make them anarcissist?
Melissa (08:26):
Definitely not, and you know what?
It might be a trait that theydo have.
These are often the people thatare leaving out key details, so
they're taking a sliver of thetruth.
For example, I playedbasketball in high school and I
was the star, and what theyleave out is that they attended
(08:50):
a school that had 50 studentsand they played other tiny
schools, and amongst those 50students they may have been the
star, but if you put them in abigger fish pond, they really
don't know much and probablyhaven't actually accomplished
much.
Evan (09:08):
They're more average, or below average perhaps, than they
suggest.
Melissa (09:13):
Absolutely Okay, absolutely.
Another big one here is thatthey will use other people for
their own gain.
These are people that knowthey're attracted to people that
have something that they don't.
They have something to offer,and this is in their partners.
(09:34):
This is in who they associatewith.
They don't look for people thatare lacking.
They look for people that bringthem up so that they can then
take on those accomplishments.
Evan (09:46):
Does that mean that everybody that networks with
people who are in a status class, maybe above them, people, for
example, who aspire to be abusiness owner or you know, to
be in a certain profession, thathang out or want to surround
themselves with the elites inthose classes or those
situations that make all ofthose people narcissists?
(10:09):
Or can that just be somebodythat is trying to network in the
best way possible bysurrounding themselves with
talented people?
Melissa (10:16):
Yeah, you know, it could be that.
And what we look at withnarcissistic personality
disorder is do they have five ormore of these traits?
So there's a total of nine andthey've got to have at least
five of them.
And that's where we say youknow, you can be a very selfish
human and still not havenarcissistic personality
(10:40):
disorder.
This is why, when this word isthrown around, it's very
misleading, because thediagnosis really is the
culmination of a variety oftraits that really do impact how
someone functions in society.
Evan (11:00):
Yeah, I think it'd be great to at some point have an
episode maybe where we go overall of the traits or dig into
several of them, you know,really get down and into the
weeds on them.
But I know we don't have a lotof that time today so we'll come
back to that at another point.
It's a very good point that yousay there that you know we can
(11:20):
all have elements of this tosome degree.
I mean I'm not sure thatAmerica would exist without some
level of narcissism.
I mean it took our foundershaving quite the belief in
themselves to tell the king ofEngland to piss off.
Melissa (11:36):
Right.
They had a lot of dreams ofthings being so much better than
what they were and some peoplewould look at that as
grandiosity and say, gosh, youknow you're crazy for thinking
that things can be that muchbetter than they are.
And the King of Englandprobably looked over and said
(11:58):
you know, this is as good as itgets.
You're not going to get anybetter.
Evan (12:02):
And did I mean?
That happened quite often, infact.
There were members of thedelegation in Philadelphia that
signed the Declaration ofIndependence.
Ultimately, that said, this isa really bad idea, like we
should not be doing this.
We are protected by this youknow empire we are taking care
(12:24):
of and the least we can do issend them some money.
And like they fought againstthis idea of independence up
until the point where they sawthat the British were willing to
just start massacring andkilling people over here to keep
them in line.
Melissa (12:38):
You know that's really not unlike a relationship with
one of these people Because,just like the King of England,
they'll tell you you know youcan't do any better.
And we continue to convinceourselves that.
You know, maybe we can't andmaybe this isn't a good idea,
(12:58):
and the reasons that we shouldstay, because there are
beneficial aspects and we oftenknow that things are going to
get way worse if we try to leave.
So you make a good case for theking of England being a
narcissist.
Evan (13:27):
I don't think that you have important people,
billionaires, influencers, ceos,monarchs without some level of
narcissism, and I would ventureto guess that in a monarchical
system, especially old-timeyEngland, where the royals could
do no wrong, they were given thefree reign to do as they please
.
Maybe not even that far back, Imean, we have one of the royals
was at one of the princes thatwas being accused of pedophilia
(13:51):
or hanging out with JeffreyEpstein.
Right, they get to do whateverthey want.
Melissa (13:57):
Wasn't that Andrew Andrew?
Was that Prince Andrew?
That's who it was, princeAndrew, yeah.
Evan (14:01):
You have the Kennedys that get to do whatever they want
and nobody questions them.
Melissa (14:05):
The Clintons Well, that's that level of entitlement
where they even recognize thatthey can get away with whatever
they want.
And really with some of thesepeople I would look at, do they
have any level of empathy?
And even again, talking aboutthe difference between sympathy
and empathy, because sympathy isoh, poor baby, you fell in a
(14:30):
hole.
I feel bad for you, but I don'tfeel what you feel.
And when we talk about empathyor empaths, in particular these
are people who deeply feel whatemanates off of others or what
others are experiencing.
Evan (14:47):
Yeah, the other night I was watching Gutfeld on the way
to sleep and Greg made a commentabout good narcissism and I'm
using air quotes and I know whenI mentioned that to you in the
past you kind of were like well,there's no such thing, there
isn't.
But when you think about theseCEOs, politicians, athletes,
(15:07):
highly successful people thathave that some element or
elements of narcissism,narcissistic traits, I guess
those are the things that drivethose individuals to be
successful.
We talk about somebody likeElon Musk, who may not be
everybody's cup of tea, but hecreated amazing things along the
way so far in his life.
(15:27):
He's done PayPal.
He did Tesla, which you knowwhether you like that or not now
for a long time it was thepreeminent electric car company.
It was the only car companythat was out there that was
really focused on building a newmode of travel that could
(15:48):
satisfy the greens and bringpeople, advance people, away
from fossil fuels, for example.
He's built SpaceX.
He's done solar.
He's done just incrediblethings.
With his narcissisticpersonality.
(16:10):
If you ever hear Elon Musk talk, he thinks very highly of
himself and he thinks he's verycritical of others, which I
would suggest is probably.
Those are probably narcissistictraits.
Melissa (16:22):
And again, that's where you say the word narcissist.
And these days it's one ofthose words that you've got to
watch where you say it.
If you say that word in acourtroom, you're going to be
crucified, because there's sucha stigma and this sense of
overuse.
And that's where saying yes,there are traits that are part
(16:50):
of narcissism, just like thereare ingredients that are part of
a cake, but we wouldn't saythat flour's a cake, would we?
No, are eggs a cake?
Evan (17:00):
No, it's just an ingredient, it's an element.
Melissa (17:02):
Is sugar a cake?
No, it's not a cake, and soit's what can become very
frustrating as a clinician,hearing this word tossed around
so flagrantly and recognizingthe true depth of what it
actually means, and then, whenyou come across it, or when
(17:25):
you've had experience with itand seen the impact and the harm
that it causes, to not be takenseriously, to not have anyone
truly understand how awful it isto interact, to live with
someone like this, to wake upone day and not recognize
(17:47):
yourself in a mirror because youjust have lost who you are.
It's hard for people to notactually use the term the way
it's intended.
Evan (17:59):
I think there are a lot of people who you know look at
their partners or look at peoplethat are close to them and
maybe somewhere in the back oftheir head they think this
person's a narcissist.
Or, you know, they mayrecognize it there in some way,
but maybe they can't admit itout loud or maybe they don't,
they try to shut it down.
What kind of damage does it doto put yourself in the proximity
(18:21):
of, or keep yourself in theproximity of, a narcissist?
Melissa (18:24):
Well, it takes away from who you are as a human,
because narcissists truly dothrive off of the identity of
others.
They start out as very, veryneutral, charming, and don't
have strong views or strongpersonality traits, because
(18:47):
they're adapting it to fit intowhat they're finding out you
want them to be.
It's part of how they griptheir nails in.
It's by becoming everythingthat somebody else wants, but
it's not truly who they are.
It's all a mask and a facade.
Evan (19:08):
It sounds like sociopathic .
Melissa (19:10):
Well, take narcissism up another step and you do have
antisocial personality disorder.
But they do.
They wear a costume and,depending on who they're with
what they're doing, their wholepersonality will shift.
They're going to change thetype of music they like or the
(19:31):
environments that they want togo to.
They're going to change if theylike to isolate more.
They're going to change sportsthat they like, teams that they
enjoy.
They're going to changeanything they need to to fit in,
to leech off of somebody else'sidentity.
Evan (19:52):
That's interesting because for me, for example, I know
that in different settings I cango and listen to country music
at a country concert, I can turnaround and go to a heavy metal
concert, I can go to a rapconcert.
Melissa (20:03):
How can you do that?
What's underneath that, though?
Evan (20:07):
Appreciation, I think, for the environment.
Some of it is so quite candidly.
We went a few months ago withour daughter to see the Dead
Kennedys.
Right, Not in my top thousand,no, I'm just kidding, no not in
my top thousand.
(20:27):
Not something that I'm superinterested in going to, but she
was interested.
It's her favorite band, shewanted to go see them and it was
important enough to me to wantto go.
We just went the other night tosee Benson Boone with our other
daughter.
Benson Boone and definitely notmy cup of tea, not my music
(20:52):
choice.
I think I was able to maybehandle the Dead Kennedys in a
way that you weren't, and then,vice versa.
I think you appreciated BensonBoone a little bit more than I
did.
Definitely, just, you know,based on our preferences.
Also, the environment and theenvironment, yeah yeah, I mean,
there are totally differentplaces.
Right, the TLA in Philly, wherethe Dead Kennedys played, is a
(21:13):
very intimate venue.
If you haven't been, it's justbasically a dance floor, and
everybody jams in there untilthe fire code goes off and
Benson Boone played the WellsFargo Center.
It was sold out, but still itwas cushy.
It was cushy.
Yeah, a little bit differentenvironment.
Melissa (21:33):
So here's the difference, though.
The difference is I'm datingyou and you love country, and I
never was a fan of country, butnow I love country.
Country is my favorite.
And then you date somebody elseand their thing is rock and
roll.
Rock and roll is my favorite.
I've always loved rock and roll.
Let's do something with rockand roll.
(21:54):
The person who's never gone toa concert in their life and
finds out you enjoy going toconcerts, so now concerts are
their favorite, and finds outyou enjoy going to concerts, so
now concerts are their favoritething.
They absolutely love going toconcerts.
Evan (22:06):
It's all that's different, though, than like us.
For example, right when westarted getting you know, dating
and getting together, we werewe do things, like you know.
For those of you that don'tknow, we do things together.
We go to concerts, we go tosporting events.
Well, you know.
For those of you that don'tknow, we do things together.
We go to concerts, we go tosporting events.
Well, you know.
Melissa (22:23):
I had never been.
Evan (22:24):
You'd never done any of this before, Right, and you know
it's becoming things that youknow, something that we enjoy
doing, and that's different.
Finding a new thing that youenjoy is different than just
adopting someone else's thing.
Melissa (22:39):
And being open to it.
So when you invited me to myfirst Flyers game, I had never
watched ice hockey, I'd neverbeen to a Flyers game.
I went because it's somethingyou love, and I was honest and
said I've never been to anythinglike this before, but I'd love
to go and experience it, andseeing you have joy also brings
(23:03):
me joy.
It's that level of honesty,though, in saying, hey, you know
what?
I'm not really a fan ofMetallica, but I'll go to the
concert with you and I'm surethat I'll enjoy feeling the
music and just experiencingsomething new as opposed to oh
my gosh, my favorite band'sMetallica.
I've always loved them.
Evan (23:24):
I get it, so it's not just a narcissist would adopt that
and say, yeah, I've always lovedthem, even if they don't know a
word of their songs.
Melissa (23:33):
They adopt your values, they adopt your desires.
Somebody who may not havewanted kids, but wants to appear
normal.
So they get together withsomeone who does want kids and
now suddenly they want to getmarried and have kids.
Evan (23:50):
Is that the concept of future faking that I've heard
about?
Melissa (23:54):
Yes.
It's also, though, promisingshe wants to go camping and buy
an RV.
So, oh, we're definitely goingto do that.
Let's buy an RV one day, orwe're going to do that house one
day, or we're going to go here,there or the other place or do
(24:14):
this or whatever it is.
We're going to do that one daybecause it keeps you hooked, it
keeps you hoping, which is a lotof why people stay, because who
they met day one wasn't real,and there's always this hope
that the person I met they'regoing to come back.
(24:36):
That person really does exist,without realizing.
They just don't.
Evan (24:42):
It's a con game.
It absolutely is People go tojail for this.
Melissa (24:55):
But not for being narcissistic.
Further, that abuse onto theirchildren, which is a whole other
ballgame of how everyone ismerely an extension of them.
For people who truly havenarcissistic personality
disorder, they are the center ofthe world and everything else
(25:18):
revolves around them as thatcore or center, whereas to the
average person there's a lot ofworld going on around me and I'm
just a little peon in it and myexistence on a grand scale
doesn't really mean a lot.
Evan (25:39):
It sounds like there's a big correlation between
narcissism and abuse, whetherit's emotional, verbal, physical
, sexual abuse.
Would you say that most ofthose kinds of actions, those
abuse cycles, are initiated bynarcissists?
Cycles are initiated bynarcissists.
Melissa (25:59):
So not every abuser is a narcissist, but every
narcissist is an abuser andfundamentally it is because they
believe that they are the mostimportant person in the room and
everyone else is just there toplease them, to satisfy them, to
(26:21):
do what they want and tosomehow meet their needs.
So when you look at it fromthat perspective, to those
people you're just a means to anend, and what then happens is
abuse.
You need to do what I want.
I need to have control over howyou're thinking, how you're
(26:44):
feeling, where you're going, whoyou're with, because anything
that threatens their existencethey have to get rid of.
This is why we see so muchisolation among people who are
in relationships withnarcissists.
We see people who don't havetheir own thoughts or opinions.
(27:04):
They steer away from otherpeople to protect the narcissist
and make sure that their lifestays the way.
It is because, ultimately, atthe end of the day, if the
narcissist isn't happy, yourlife is miserable.
So the goal then becomes keepthis person happy, no matter
(27:26):
what.
Evan (27:26):
Yeah, so along those lines right.
A lot of times people you knowsuffer in silence right through
these kinds of narcissisticrelationships, and maybe people
around them don't know that thisother person's a narcissist.
Can you talk just generallyabout the concepts of overt and
(27:48):
covert narcissism and what thatlooks like and how that relates
to maybe people not being ableto see those narcissistic traits
in someone?
Melissa (27:58):
Sure, I think more important to talk about is the
covert narcissism, because thatis the charm on the outside and
nobody knows what's happeningbehind closed doors, and part of
that.
We talked a little bit aboutgenerational things in our first
episode.
A lot of that is because ourgeneration was taught to sweep
(28:19):
things under the rug.
We were taught that you getmarried, you stay married.
It's not necessarily a goodmarriage, but you stay.
It doesn't really matter whathappens.
These are the people that arecheating, that have addictions
that can be physically abusiveas well.
They're the absent parent,often Physically they might be
(28:43):
there, but they're emotionallynot present, because they really
don't have the capacity toexperience emotions.
Evan (28:51):
Are they teachers who go right up to the line of
inappropriateness?
Melissa (28:55):
That would be that whole concept of exploitation
Exploiting people, making peoplefeel uncomfortable.
Exploitation exploiting people,making people feel
uncomfortable.
These are the people that knowwhat's going to irritate you and
they poke right in there toelicit the reaction.
So you look like the crazy one.
So think about it from theperspective of that partner, who
(29:18):
is now feeling like oh my goshA, is this all my fault?
What have I done wrong?
And part of that is becausesomeone who truly has
narcissistic personalitydisorder will choose a partner
that's probably already been avictim of abuse in another way.
It's somebody that's alreadybeen desensitized in some ways
(29:41):
to this, that doesn't have valueof self, doesn't believe that
they're worth more.
Evan (29:49):
Yeah, and again, people that are close to these people,
friends and colleagues, and theymay not even see this stuff, so
that when you do get to asituation where maybe somebody
is in a relationship with anarcissist a marriage or
something like that, and it endsup devolving into a court
situation where kids areinvolved or other kinds of
(30:10):
situations, it's reallydifficult for the legal system
to account for that kind ofnuanced narcissism right when
they may be able to project thatyou are the problem by
antagonizing you, and I thinkyou call that antagonistic,
reactive abuse, reactive abuse.
So how can you, when yourecognize the narcissism in your
(30:36):
partner, how can you helpyourself to not react or put
yourself in a better position?
Melissa (30:44):
Well, therapy and you're kind of touching on
something important, becausemost often everyone else around
you will pick up on it beforeyou do, and part of that is a
term that we call betrayalblindness.
It's where it is so hard to seethat someone who's supposed to
(31:05):
love you.
I often say in sessions youknow, we didn't get married
thinking, gee, I'd really liketo marry this person, buy a
house, have a couple kids, maybehave a career, and then you
know what?
I think it would be awesome tojust have it all implode and
realize that this person is notat all who I ever thought that
(31:29):
they were.
They're going to abuse me andthe kids.
Nobody's going to believe mebecause they're charming on the
outside.
I'm going to be condemned bythe police because I must just
be a vindictive woman who'strying to get custody of my kids
, and the court system won'tcare, because every parent
(31:50):
deserves the right to parent.
You know, all the while, singleparenting because they're
really not around.
That sounds awesome.
Let's sign up for that.
Evan (32:01):
Nobody does that.
Nobody does that.
Melissa (32:04):
We don't because we don't see it, and then, by the
time we do see it, it's too lateand we stay because,
fundamentally, we know our kidsaren't safe and as a mother, as
a mother who's done it, we willput ourselves in the middle.
And this is something that thefamily courts aren't even
equipped to understand, nor arethey equipped to understand the
(32:28):
impact that this pattern ofconduct has on children.
It's a gross lack ofrelationship that this
individual has, not just in thefamily but in society, and when
you look at kids, we want toknow what's that big event that
happened that caused this divideand the courts and even a lot
(32:53):
of clinicians needing tounderstand.
It's not one big event.
It's complex developmentaltrauma.
It's the fracture of what couldhave and should have been a
relationship between a parentand child, and as a society we
have a really hard timecomprehending and accepting the
(33:15):
fact that not every human isactually capable of relationship
.
Evan (33:21):
Yeah, I think that's a really hard thing to try to
convince ourselves is real right.
We want to know, we want tobelieve that the world is good,
that people are good in mass,that there's not a fair subset
of the society that's just notcapable of policing themselves
(33:43):
in a traditional way.
So you said it often comes fromoutside.
You'll sort of hear things fromout.
What kind of things will youhear?
And, by the way, I know youtalked about being a mother in a
relationship.
This is not a gender-specificthing.
Narcissism comes in male andfemale.
Melissa (34:03):
It absolutely does.
Evan (34:05):
So what kinds of things?
If you're in a relationshipwith someone who's a narcissist,
or maybe you have a child whois a manipulative narcissist,
what kinds of things are yougoing to hear from outside?
Melissa (34:17):
Well, I first want to say children cannot be diagnosed
with narcissistic personalitydisorder.
Evan (34:22):
Okay.
Melissa (34:23):
This is something that has to be the characteristics,
the traits will be present.
But, as I said, we don't takethis diagnosis lightly and it is
not something that is madeuntil after someone is an adult.
Evan (34:37):
So the other Does it have to do with the brain formation
and lots of things that aregoing on at that time that may
present multiple traits whenit's really just a phase?
Melissa (34:48):
It does, and part of it being a personality disorder is
it is actually ingrained in ourpersonality.
So it's a pattern of conductover time, and that time isn't
days.
A narcissist's favorite thingis to say, well, I'm going to
change, I'm going to do better,and it's words.
(35:30):
There's not action that goeswith it, and if there is any
type of action, it's extremelyshort-lived.
I came across something on it'sDeep Minds Anonymous.
I came across something on it'sdeep minds anonymous.
That's just one of theorganizations I guess groups
that I follow personally onFacebook, and here's what it
(35:52):
says.
This is how empaths andnarcissists are born.
Both come from childhoods wherelove felt unsafe, inconsistent
or conditional.
Both are children of trauma.
Both found a way to survive.
The empath survived by feelingmore, scanning the room, reading
(36:12):
emotions, anticipating needs,hoping that if they could keep
everyone happy, they'd finallyfeel safe.
The narcissist survived byfeeling less, shutting down
their vulnerability, buildingwalls, deciding that if they
only cared about themselves, noone could ever hurt them again.
Neither is weak, neither isstrong.
(36:35):
Both are adaptations, both arewounds.
But survival is not the same ashealing.
And if we don't heal, thosechildhood strategies can follow
us into adulthood, shaping theway we love the way we connect
and the way we see ourselvespain.
(36:59):
And it goes back to how do Isee that world around me?
Am I the center or am I thelittle peon?
And how do I use my powers?
Do I?
Evan (37:16):
use my power of feeling and connecting for good, or do I
use it for evil, right?
So what kinds of things willyou hear from friends or family-
?
Melissa (37:22):
You won't.
Evan (37:22):
About a narcissist that would trigger you to say wait a
minute.
You won't.
Melissa (37:29):
You won't Because you've been married before.
Evan (37:32):
Yes.
Melissa (37:34):
If one of your friends or family members came to you
and said this person's no good.
These are the red flags.
Don't do it.
What would you have done?
You'd have done it anyway.
Evan (37:46):
Yeah, I mean I might have had those kinds of conversations
with, like, a parent that mayor may not be a father.
Melissa (37:52):
Right.
Well, and oftentimes again, youlove this person.
You're not marrying thembecause you don't like them and
we get tunnel vision.
We don't want to see otherthings, because there's a reason
we're marrying them, whetherthat's because she's already
pregnant and having your child,or whether it's because you're
(38:13):
young and scared that you won'tfind anything better and you
don't want to lose your hopesand dreams of having kids and a
home and it's going to be okay,right.
Evan (38:24):
But some people have those friends, that will say
something.
Melissa (38:29):
If somebody is not ready to hear it, though,
they're not going to hear it.
Evan (38:33):
Fair enough.
Melissa (38:34):
So most often we either ignore feedback and sometimes
we're cognizant enough to sayyou know what.
You're right.
That is definitely the case andthere's nothing I can do about
it, because I need to keep mychildren safe.
Sure, and they won't be if I'mnot there.
(38:54):
So often people don't sayanything because they also don't
want to disrupt theirrelationship with you, and, from
experience, as soon as they dosay something, they then become
enemy number one.
Evan (39:08):
What then becomes the generational impact of a
narcissist?
It sounds like that's justsomething that's going to be
self-fulfilling over and over,and over and over again as
generations progress.
Melissa (39:21):
So what happens is you have kids that either are
extremely passive andpeople-pleasing and in that case
these are people who neverlearn to stand up for themselves
and then engage with abusiveindividuals who follow the same
pattern as that parent.
On the flip side of that, youhave someone who's modeling this
(39:44):
behavior for the nextgeneration.
They're modeling the lack ofvalue in other humans, that
respect isn't necessary, thateveryone else is there to meet
your needs, and then theyperpetuate that same cycle.
So you either have someone thathas no idea or value no idea of
(40:05):
who they are, because all theyare is what they're told.
You're going to do this.
This is the parent who demandstheir child go to school for
nursing.
Because they went to school fornursing or because they wanted
to be a nurse, didn't make it tonursing school, maybe became a
CNA or something instead, butwill tell everyone that they're
(40:28):
a nurse and that their child isgoing to be a nurse.
Their kids live out theirfantasies, their failures, that
they can't accept.
At the end of the day, theperson with narcissistic
personality disorder is theperson who would rather walk
away from everyone and maintaintheir own version of who they
(40:49):
are than to be exposed.
Evan (40:51):
As a clinician, do you treat narcissists?
Do you treat the people thatare around narcissists?
Melissa (40:57):
Do I or does anybody?
Evan (41:07):
Narcissist?
No, I'm specifically asking youbecause of your specialty,
because of your knowledge andunderstanding of narcissism.
Obviously, therapy, like manyother professions, has lots of
different levels ofqualifications, right?
Can you find somebody that's aCPA that will do your taxes
improperly, absolutely?
Can you find somebody that's aCPA that will do your taxes
improperly, absolutely?
Can you find somebody who's atherapist that will do your
therapy, improperly or not?
(41:29):
Absolutely At a high level,absolutely right.
So there's always going to bedifferent levels in each
profession, but do you believethere's anything like a
recovering narcissist, similarto like a recovering addict?
Do you treat narcissists?
Do you focus on trying to helppeople who have been victims of
(41:51):
narcissists?
Melissa (41:52):
So for me personally, no, I do not treat narcissists
and I will tell you, they arevery infrequently found in a
therapy room because they wouldhave to have the ability to
self-reflect and typically theydon't have the ability to see
themselves through a differentlens.
Evan (42:10):
It's very rare they see themselves in the mirror and go
God, I'm a narcissist, I got tochange.
Melissa (42:14):
Exactly that's kind of part of what makes them a
narcissist is they have anunrealistic view of themselves
and their relationships witheverybody around them.
Evan (42:23):
I guess kind of like the namesake of narcissism,
narcissus right.
Looks in the mirror and seeswhat it wants to see?
Melissa (42:28):
Absolutely.
And it's not that these peopleare lying or delusional.
They truly believe thatreflection.
So if somebody truly believesthe reflection they see, why
would they go to therapy?
Well, most often becausethey're told by a partner you
need to go with me if you haveany hope.
(42:48):
So if you find a narcissist ina therapy office, it's probably
because they're forced to bethere and they believe that
merely by sitting there it'sgoing to accomplish what they
want, which is for the therapistto view them as the normal one
and to tell the partner they'recrazy.
Evan (43:08):
How does that usually go?
Melissa (43:10):
It depends on the therapist.
Evan (43:14):
In your practice.
Melissa (43:15):
It does not go well.
It does not go well because Ihave a habit of being very
direct and it's part of why thistraining, and this
certification specifically, isso important, because these are
charming people and they willcome in and they will convince a
(43:37):
therapist that they're theharmed party, and this person
just gets angry with them andputs them down and doesn't let
them do anything, and then theother party will explode and say
this is what they do.
You know, none of this is real.
It's an act, it's a show, andthey look like the crazy one.
So, as someone who's certified,I am certified to identify
(44:02):
these patterns, to see throughrelationships, to the heart of
what's going on, to dissectthings, to look at the impact on
things, like on people, likechildren, and look at the traits
that children have and be ableto see wow, this is probably
(44:23):
where this comes from.
Let's look a little deeper.
I am also certified to treatthe survivors of this abuse
because it comes with guilt andshame and an identity crisis of
living so many years inconfusion and chaos.
Evan (44:44):
Yeah, I know you said earlier that you have lived
experience in what you do and Ithink it's important that people
understand that, especiallywith you and I think with most
people who have your level oftraining and certification, that
you know most of the timeyou're individuals who have been
(45:05):
through this yourselves andthat you know, when you put
yourself out there and you'reready to, you know to move on or
transition from a narcissistand get away from that kind of a
situation, that you look forsomeone who has that level of
understanding that can help youthrough it, because it, I think,
(45:26):
really does mean a lot knowingthat the person sitting across
from you has actively lived thator knows where you're coming
from.
And you know every circumstanceis different.
Right, everything is a littlebit different.
Nobody can really know whatsomebody else is feeling
necessarily, but if you've beenthrough something similar, if
(45:47):
you've gone through that kind oftrauma before, you have a much
better chance of to feel crazy.
Melissa (45:52):
You understand what it's like to doubt if you're in
reality to question if you arethe devil, if everything this
person has put in your mind isactually true, and recognizing
(46:19):
that this person sitting withyou can sit there and say,
realizing that this personsitting with you can sit there
and say, hey, you know what, Iknow what it's like to feel
crazy to question everythingabout your decision-making,
about your choices, your abilityto survive, because you've been
told you won't survive withoutme.
(46:40):
Nobody else is going to wantyou and all of those things are
very intentional to keep youthere.
Evan (46:48):
And then what you're saying now, though, is that
there's a way beyond that.
There's a path beyond that.
I heard you say that peoplethat are in those situations
feel like there's no other way.
They have to be there for theirkids and you know nobody will
ever believe them, and all ofthose things, but there are
people like you out there whowill.
(47:09):
There are people like you outthere who can help them.
There are people like you outthere who will advocate for them
.
You know we could get in anotherepisode talk about your CV and
all the things that you've doneyou've done at various levels of
the legal system, and all ofthose things, but the important
(47:30):
part is, if you are listening tothis and you are feeling any of
this is like something that'stouching your life that there
are people if it's not Melissa,there's people like Melissa out
there who can help you.
There are people who can guideyou in the right direction.
There are people who have beenthrough this before.
You're not alone.
(47:50):
You are not, you know, in aposition that you're not able to
get out of.
There's a path forward, and youknow the first step is to go
ask.
Melissa (47:59):
Well, and one of the biggest pieces of it is you've
lived in such confusion for solong that to go even to therapy
with someone like me it'squestioning again am I crazy?
Am I a narcissist?
Am I delusional?
Am I doing the right thing?
(48:20):
Because innately you've puteverybody else first for so long
that it's hard to see throughthe trees on that and it takes
somebody who has a lot of skilland experience to help you look
inside yourself for thoseanswers.
It's helping you trust your gutand your intuition again.
Evan (48:44):
Yeah, I mean the moral of the story that I heard from you
before.
The takeaway that I had wasthat, if you can ask yourself if
you're a narcissist, you're not, you're not.
Melissa (48:55):
You're not.
And these are also the peoplewho ask themselves am I with
somebody who's narcissistic?
And then come up with 18reasons to justify why they're
not and what else it couldpossibly be, because it's that
hard to face.
Not only that you made thatchoice, but that by making that
(49:15):
choice, you made that choice foryour children.
Evan (49:18):
We're gonna talk about choices in a future episode, but
I guess we've gotta leave ithere.
So again, if you are feelingany of these things, if any of
this has touched you, we wantyou to find peace and find
happiness and heal.
Melissa (49:33):
And we want you to reach out and share your story
and know that you are not alonein this.
Part of why we're doing thispodcast is to bring light into
some of these dark, dark placesand to let people know you are
not alone in this.
And there's power in numbers,there's power in voices, there's
(49:54):
power in people collectivelycoming together and saying no
more.
I am going to stand in this gapso that this does not pass on
to my children and together, asa society, as communities, we
can say our children deservebetter.
Evan (50:11):
Yeah, evil flourishes in the darkness and the light
exposes it.
And I think, you know, we justhave to be willing to have these
kinds of discussions.
We have to be willing to talkabout these things and not be
afraid to share our stories, notbe afraid to, you know, be
introspective, yes, but also,you know, be able to look at
(50:33):
those around us, be able to look, you know, to our friends, to
our family, and have these kindsof conversations in a much more
open fashion than what we, youknow, have recently.
It's become taboo to have thesekinds of discussions in a much
more open fashion than what wehave recently.
It's become taboo to have thesekinds of discussions, and we're
here to talk about things thatother people won't talk about.
Melissa (50:49):
And to increase education for people, so that
instead of looking at someoneand saying, gosh, why did you
stay, it's an understanding ofwow, that's really amazing that
you stayed as long as you didand and were so protective and
are continuing quite honestly toanybody who's with one of these
people.
Still, you're a rock star forcontinuing to stand in that gap
(51:13):
and keep your kids safe.
Evan (51:15):
Yeah, and don't be afraid to say this is what I'm seeing,
this is the truth, because eventhough you know that person may
not want to hear it in thatmoment, if they don't ever hear
it, then they'll never know whatthey're missing.
So you know, don't be afraid tohave those kinds of
conversations and discussions.
Melissa (51:34):
And if you're unsafe, get help.
Yeah.
Welcome to another episode of the Unmentionables.
I'm Evan with Melissa, asalways.
Welcome, melissa.
Thanks, so good to see you.
Melissa (00:09):
Because I didn't see you most of my day.
Evan (00:12):
Well, we spend a lot of time together, that's for sure.
Melissa (00:16):
We sure do.
Evan (00:18):
Just to let everybody know , we will be dropping new
episodes on a regular basis onTuesdays at 6 am, but for those
of you who become subscribers,you'll get it two days earlier.
Melissa (00:31):
What do they have to do to become a subscriber?
Because, if they're anythinglike me, they really don't know
anything about this.
Evan (00:37):
Just go to our website podcasttheunmentionablespodcom
and you'll see the subscriberslink and right there you cancom
and you'll see the subscriberslink and right there you can
subscribe and you'll get accessearlier.
You'll get access tosubscribers only content.
We're going to do someinterviews with your staff and
with yourself right and givepeople some inside information
(00:58):
about who we are and why we dothis.
Melissa (01:01):
So if they're going to subscribe, what does it cost
them?
Is it like their firstborn ordo they get to pick?
Evan (01:10):
No, it's not their firstborn at all, it's $3.
Melissa (01:14):
Because we don't want any more children.
That's right.
Evan (01:16):
That's right.
$3 a month gets you that earlyaccess.
Melissa (01:20):
Awesome.
I know I've had some peopleasking me what we're going to do
and how we're going to do it.
So, if you're here and you'relistening, the Unmentionables.
Evan (01:28):
Podcast.
You can also get us through ourwebsite.
(01:51):
You can send us a message thereabout things you might want to
hear us talk about.
Melissa (01:55):
Well, and I know one of the things that we talked about
wanting to do is even somecall-ins or just answering
questions from people and doingsome subscriber episodes that
were more oriented like that.
Evan (02:09):
Absolutely.
We want this to be a relationalshow, not just something that
we do Right, we want you guys tobe involved in it as well.
So I want you to feel free toreach out to us, to contact us,
and we want to talk about thingsthat you want to hear us
talking about.
We sure do.
People might be tuning in forthe first time, melissa.
They may not know you.
(02:29):
They may not know much aboutyou or your practice or what you
do.
Maybe they found us throughtheir favorite podcast
application because they can getus anywhere.
Sure, they might have found usthrough social media and they
may not know this about you, butyou are one of an elite class
of clinicians very few people inthe world who have studied
under Dr Romani DiversolaCorrect and have become a
(02:53):
certified narcissistic abusetreatment clinician.
Why don't you tell us a littlebit about what that means and
why it's important when we talkabout our topic today, which is
narcissism?
Melissa (03:01):
Sure, you know, I think it's a topic that's often
misconstrued.
There's a lot ofmisunderstanding and misuse of
the term.
Honestly, and as a mentalhealth clinician, if we don't
know about antagonisticpersonalities, it can actually
do a lot of damage to people.
(03:22):
There's a lot of people that goto counseling and feel even
more confused than when theystarted or, for example, with
couples being able to identifywhat is antagonistic.
Otherwise, we really riskmaking things far worse than
(03:45):
even when somebody came in tostart therapy.
So you know, my background wasin doing trauma and treating all
kinds of different trauma, andmost trauma therapists get there
from learned experiences andlife and our own stuff, and it's
(04:06):
no different for those of usthat specialize in narcissism.
It's something that we'veprobably come into contact with
and it's impacted us prettydeeply.
Evan (04:14):
People throw around the term narcissism all the time.
You see it on social media, yousee it in the news.
You see it all over the place.
Why don't you help us definenarcissism?
Because I think there'sprobably a difference, maybe,
between what people might see intheir day-to-day lives as
narcissism and what a clinicaldefinition of narcissism or a
(04:34):
disorder related to narcissismmight be.
Melissa (04:37):
Sure, it's interesting because when we look at any
variety of things, it changesover time.
So you might have an experiencethat gives you anxiety, and so
you have anxiety for a period ofa couple hours or even minutes,
(04:59):
and when we don't address thatthen we turn into an anxious
person.
So now it's not just onescenario, it's a part of who I
am, a trait, a character trait,and then in the trauma world we
say that when we don't deal withthat it turns into a physical
manifestation and we can't justavoid things.
(05:22):
So when we look at a diagnosislike narcissistic personality
disorder, we're not just talkingabout one trait, or this person
is so selfish or everything isabout them, they think they're
special or entitled.
We're talking about aconsistent pattern of conduct
(05:47):
that can be traced all the wayback into childhood or
adolescence.
And again, it's not somethingwhere they're just a jerk at
work and pay attention to me atwork.
You see it at work.
You see it at their kids,sports.
You see it at home, inrelationships.
You see it among theirfriendships or lack of
(06:09):
friendships, because especiallynarcissistic personality
disorder impacts socialfunctioning.
These people don't want peopleto see who they are.
So from a clinical perspective.
Everybody has a trait or twothat's included in the
definition of narcissisticpersonality disorder.
(06:31):
The question is does it rise toa level of impact and of
consistency of their behavioraland thought patterns that we can
actually say this is a disorderand we don't take that lightly?
Evan (06:50):
Can you give us an idea of what some of those traits are?
Melissa (06:53):
Sure, I mean I did just name a few.
One of the big ones is what wesee as entitlement.
I'm special and I should havewhat I want.
Special and I should have whatI want.
This is that person that goesinto the restaurant and will
complain that the carrot shredsare missing off their salad.
So take my salad back and makeit right how they treat the
(07:17):
people around them where you canjust tell that they believe
they are more important or morevaluable as a human.
Evan (07:25):
Does that mean that everybody who returns a food
item is a narcissist?
Melissa (07:29):
No, I think it's how you do it though.
Evan (07:31):
Okay, fair.
Melissa (07:41):
But another one is just exaggerating achievements,
changing those stories to makeyourself seem like you've
accomplished more, done more and, in the broader frame of
reference, it just isn't whatthey're saying.
Evan (07:53):
Don't we all kind of do that on our resumes, though?
When we write our resumes,don't we play up a little bit
what we've accomplished, andmaybe that's just putting an
emphasis on something.
Maybe it's talking about howthis thing that you worked on
was so important and in realityit was probably less important
(08:14):
than you make it out to be Notsaying that, you're lying,
necessarily, but people all thetime embellish on their resumes
to get looked at at a new job.
Does that make them anarcissist?
Melissa (08:26):
Definitely not, and you know what?
It might be a trait that theydo have.
These are often the people thatare leaving out key details, so
they're taking a sliver of thetruth.
For example, I playedbasketball in high school and I
was the star, and what theyleave out is that they attended
(08:50):
a school that had 50 studentsand they played other tiny
schools, and amongst those 50students they may have been the
star, but if you put them in abigger fish pond, they really
don't know much and probablyhaven't actually accomplished
much.
Evan (09:08):
They're more average, or below average perhaps, than they
suggest.
Melissa (09:13):
Absolutely Okay, absolutely.
Another big one here is thatthey will use other people for
their own gain.
These are people that knowthey're attracted to people that
have something that they don't.
They have something to offer,and this is in their partners.
(09:34):
This is in who they associatewith.
They don't look for people thatare lacking.
They look for people that bringthem up so that they can then
take on those accomplishments.
Evan (09:46):
Does that mean that everybody that networks with
people who are in a status class, maybe above them, people, for
example, who aspire to be abusiness owner or you know, to
be in a certain profession, thathang out or want to surround
themselves with the elites inthose classes or those
situations that make all ofthose people narcissists?
(10:09):
Or can that just be somebodythat is trying to network in the
best way possible bysurrounding themselves with
talented people?
Melissa (10:16):
Yeah, you know, it could be that.
And what we look at withnarcissistic personality
disorder is do they have five ormore of these traits?
So there's a total of nine andthey've got to have at least
five of them.
And that's where we say youknow, you can be a very selfish
human and still not havenarcissistic personality
(10:40):
disorder.
This is why, when this word isthrown around, it's very
misleading, because thediagnosis really is the
culmination of a variety oftraits that really do impact how
someone functions in society.
Evan (11:00):
Yeah, I think it'd be great to at some point have an
episode maybe where we go overall of the traits or dig into
several of them, you know,really get down and into the
weeds on them.
But I know we don't have a lotof that time today so we'll come
back to that at another point.
It's a very good point that yousay there that you know we can
(11:20):
all have elements of this tosome degree.
I mean I'm not sure thatAmerica would exist without some
level of narcissism.
I mean it took our foundershaving quite the belief in
themselves to tell the king ofEngland to piss off.
Melissa (11:36):
Right.
They had a lot of dreams ofthings being so much better than
what they were and some peoplewould look at that as
grandiosity and say, gosh, youknow you're crazy for thinking
that things can be that muchbetter than they are.
And the King of Englandprobably looked over and said
(11:58):
you know, this is as good as itgets.
You're not going to get anybetter.
Evan (12:02):
And did I mean?
That happened quite often, infact.
There were members of thedelegation in Philadelphia that
signed the Declaration ofIndependence.
Ultimately, that said, this isa really bad idea, like we
should not be doing this.
We are protected by this youknow empire we are taking care
(12:24):
of and the least we can do issend them some money.
And like they fought againstthis idea of independence up
until the point where they sawthat the British were willing to
just start massacring andkilling people over here to keep
them in line.
Melissa (12:38):
You know that's really not unlike a relationship with
one of these people Because,just like the King of England,
they'll tell you you know youcan't do any better.
And we continue to convinceourselves that.
You know, maybe we can't andmaybe this isn't a good idea,
(12:58):
and the reasons that we shouldstay, because there are
beneficial aspects and we oftenknow that things are going to
get way worse if we try to leave.
So you make a good case for theking of England being a
narcissist.
Evan (13:27):
I don't think that you have important people,
billionaires, influencers, ceos,monarchs without some level of
narcissism, and I would ventureto guess that in a monarchical
system, especially old-timeyEngland, where the royals could
do no wrong, they were given thefree reign to do as they please
.
Maybe not even that far back, Imean, we have one of the royals
was at one of the princes thatwas being accused of pedophilia
(13:51):
or hanging out with JeffreyEpstein.
Right, they get to do whateverthey want.
Melissa (13:57):
Wasn't that Andrew Andrew?
Was that Prince Andrew?
That's who it was, princeAndrew, yeah.
Evan (14:01):
You have the Kennedys that get to do whatever they want
and nobody questions them.
Melissa (14:05):
The Clintons Well, that's that level of entitlement
where they even recognize thatthey can get away with whatever
they want.
And really with some of thesepeople I would look at, do they
have any level of empathy?
And even again, talking aboutthe difference between sympathy
and empathy, because sympathy isoh, poor baby, you fell in a
(14:30):
hole.
I feel bad for you, but I don'tfeel what you feel.
And when we talk about empathyor empaths, in particular these
are people who deeply feel whatemanates off of others or what
others are experiencing.
Evan (14:47):
Yeah, the other night I was watching Gutfeld on the way
to sleep and Greg made a commentabout good narcissism and I'm
using air quotes and I know whenI mentioned that to you in the
past you kind of were like well,there's no such thing, there
isn't.
But when you think about theseCEOs, politicians, athletes,
(15:07):
highly successful people thathave that some element or
elements of narcissism,narcissistic traits, I guess
those are the things that drivethose individuals to be
successful.
We talk about somebody likeElon Musk, who may not be
everybody's cup of tea, but hecreated amazing things along the
way so far in his life.
(15:27):
He's done PayPal.
He did Tesla, which you knowwhether you like that or not now
for a long time it was thepreeminent electric car company.
It was the only car companythat was out there that was
really focused on building a newmode of travel that could
(15:48):
satisfy the greens and bringpeople, advance people, away
from fossil fuels, for example.
He's built SpaceX.
He's done solar.
He's done just incrediblethings.
With his narcissisticpersonality.
(16:10):
If you ever hear Elon Musk talk, he thinks very highly of
himself and he thinks he's verycritical of others, which I
would suggest is probably.
Those are probably narcissistictraits.
Melissa (16:22):
And again, that's where you say the word narcissist.
And these days it's one ofthose words that you've got to
watch where you say it.
If you say that word in acourtroom, you're going to be
crucified, because there's sucha stigma and this sense of
overuse.
And that's where saying yes,there are traits that are part
(16:50):
of narcissism, just like thereare ingredients that are part of
a cake, but we wouldn't saythat flour's a cake, would we?
No, are eggs a cake?
Evan (17:00):
No, it's just an ingredient, it's an element.
Melissa (17:02):
Is sugar a cake?
No, it's not a cake, and soit's what can become very
frustrating as a clinician,hearing this word tossed around
so flagrantly and recognizingthe true depth of what it
actually means, and then, whenyou come across it, or when
(17:25):
you've had experience with itand seen the impact and the harm
that it causes, to not be takenseriously, to not have anyone
truly understand how awful it isto interact, to live with
someone like this, to wake upone day and not recognize
(17:47):
yourself in a mirror because youjust have lost who you are.
It's hard for people to notactually use the term the way
it's intended.
Evan (17:59):
I think there are a lot of people who you know look at
their partners or look at peoplethat are close to them and
maybe somewhere in the back oftheir head they think this
person's a narcissist.
Or, you know, they mayrecognize it there in some way,
but maybe they can't admit itout loud or maybe they don't,
they try to shut it down.
What kind of damage does it doto put yourself in the proximity
(18:21):
of, or keep yourself in theproximity of, a narcissist?
Melissa (18:24):
Well, it takes away from who you are as a human,
because narcissists truly dothrive off of the identity of
others.
They start out as very, veryneutral, charming, and don't
have strong views or strongpersonality traits, because
(18:47):
they're adapting it to fit intowhat they're finding out you
want them to be.
It's part of how they griptheir nails in.
It's by becoming everythingthat somebody else wants, but
it's not truly who they are.
It's all a mask and a facade.
Evan (19:08):
It sounds like sociopathic .
Melissa (19:10):
Well, take narcissism up another step and you do have
antisocial personality disorder.
But they do.
They wear a costume and,depending on who they're with
what they're doing, their wholepersonality will shift.
They're going to change thetype of music they like or the
(19:31):
environments that they want togo to.
They're going to change if theylike to isolate more.
They're going to change sportsthat they like, teams that they
enjoy.
They're going to changeanything they need to to fit in,
to leech off of somebody else'sidentity.
Evan (19:52):
That's interesting because for me, for example, I know
that in different settings I cango and listen to country music
at a country concert, I can turnaround and go to a heavy metal
concert, I can go to a rapconcert.
Melissa (20:03):
How can you do that?
What's underneath that, though?
Evan (20:07):
Appreciation, I think, for the environment.
Some of it is so quite candidly.
We went a few months ago withour daughter to see the Dead
Kennedys.
Right, Not in my top thousand,no, I'm just kidding, no not in
my top thousand.
(20:27):
Not something that I'm superinterested in going to, but she
was interested.
It's her favorite band, shewanted to go see them and it was
important enough to me to wantto go.
We just went the other night tosee Benson Boone with our other
daughter.
Benson Boone and definitely notmy cup of tea, not my music
(20:52):
choice.
I think I was able to maybehandle the Dead Kennedys in a
way that you weren't, and then,vice versa.
I think you appreciated BensonBoone a little bit more than I
did.
Definitely, just, you know,based on our preferences.
Also, the environment and theenvironment, yeah yeah, I mean,
there are totally differentplaces.
Right, the TLA in Philly, wherethe Dead Kennedys played, is a
(21:13):
very intimate venue.
If you haven't been, it's justbasically a dance floor, and
everybody jams in there untilthe fire code goes off and
Benson Boone played the WellsFargo Center.
It was sold out, but still itwas cushy.
It was cushy.
Yeah, a little bit differentenvironment.
Melissa (21:33):
So here's the difference, though.
The difference is I'm datingyou and you love country, and I
never was a fan of country, butnow I love country.
Country is my favorite.
And then you date somebody elseand their thing is rock and
roll.
Rock and roll is my favorite.
I've always loved rock and roll.
Let's do something with rockand roll.
(21:54):
The person who's never gone toa concert in their life and
finds out you enjoy going toconcerts, so now concerts are
their favorite, and finds outyou enjoy going to concerts, so
now concerts are their favoritething.
They absolutely love going toconcerts.
Evan (22:06):
It's all that's different, though, than like us.
For example, right when westarted getting you know, dating
and getting together, we werewe do things, like you know.
For those of you that don'tknow, we do things together.
We go to concerts, we go tosporting events.
Well, you know.
For those of you that don'tknow, we do things together.
We go to concerts, we go tosporting events.
Well, you know.
Melissa (22:23):
I had never been.
Evan (22:24):
You'd never done any of this before, Right, and you know
it's becoming things that youknow, something that we enjoy
doing, and that's different.
Finding a new thing that youenjoy is different than just
adopting someone else's thing.
Melissa (22:39):
And being open to it.
So when you invited me to myfirst Flyers game, I had never
watched ice hockey, I'd neverbeen to a Flyers game.
I went because it's somethingyou love, and I was honest and
said I've never been to anythinglike this before, but I'd love
to go and experience it, andseeing you have joy also brings
(23:03):
me joy.
It's that level of honesty,though, in saying, hey, you know
what?
I'm not really a fan ofMetallica, but I'll go to the
concert with you and I'm surethat I'll enjoy feeling the
music and just experiencingsomething new as opposed to oh
my gosh, my favorite band'sMetallica.
I've always loved them.
Evan (23:24):
I get it, so it's not just a narcissist would adopt that
and say, yeah, I've always lovedthem, even if they don't know a
word of their songs.
Melissa (23:33):
They adopt your values, they adopt your desires.
Somebody who may not havewanted kids, but wants to appear
normal.
So they get together withsomeone who does want kids and
now suddenly they want to getmarried and have kids.
Evan (23:50):
Is that the concept of future faking that I've heard
about?
Melissa (23:54):
Yes.
It's also, though, promisingshe wants to go camping and buy
an RV.
So, oh, we're definitely goingto do that.
Let's buy an RV one day, orwe're going to do that house one
day, or we're going to go here,there or the other place or do
(24:14):
this or whatever it is.
We're going to do that one daybecause it keeps you hooked, it
keeps you hoping, which is a lotof why people stay, because who
they met day one wasn't real,and there's always this hope
that the person I met they'regoing to come back.
(24:36):
That person really does exist,without realizing.
They just don't.
Evan (24:42):
It's a con game.
It absolutely is People go tojail for this.
Melissa (24:55):
But not for being narcissistic.
Further, that abuse onto theirchildren, which is a whole other
ballgame of how everyone ismerely an extension of them.
For people who truly havenarcissistic personality
disorder, they are the center ofthe world and everything else
(25:18):
revolves around them as thatcore or center, whereas to the
average person there's a lot ofworld going on around me and I'm
just a little peon in it and myexistence on a grand scale
doesn't really mean a lot.
Evan (25:39):
It sounds like there's a big correlation between
narcissism and abuse, whetherit's emotional, verbal, physical
, sexual abuse.
Would you say that most ofthose kinds of actions, those
abuse cycles, are initiated bynarcissists?
Cycles are initiated bynarcissists.
Melissa (25:59):
So not every abuser is a narcissist, but every
narcissist is an abuser andfundamentally it is because they
believe that they are the mostimportant person in the room and
everyone else is just there toplease them, to satisfy them, to
(26:21):
do what they want and tosomehow meet their needs.
So when you look at it fromthat perspective, to those
people you're just a means to anend, and what then happens is
abuse.
You need to do what I want.
I need to have control over howyou're thinking, how you're
(26:44):
feeling, where you're going, whoyou're with, because anything
that threatens their existencethey have to get rid of.
This is why we see so muchisolation among people who are
in relationships withnarcissists.
We see people who don't havetheir own thoughts or opinions.
(27:04):
They steer away from otherpeople to protect the narcissist
and make sure that their lifestays the way.
It is because, ultimately, atthe end of the day, if the
narcissist isn't happy, yourlife is miserable.
So the goal then becomes keepthis person happy, no matter
(27:26):
what.
Evan (27:26):
Yeah, so along those lines right.
A lot of times people you knowsuffer in silence right through
these kinds of narcissisticrelationships, and maybe people
around them don't know that thisother person's a narcissist.
Can you talk just generallyabout the concepts of overt and
(27:48):
covert narcissism and what thatlooks like and how that relates
to maybe people not being ableto see those narcissistic traits
in someone?
Melissa (27:58):
Sure, I think more important to talk about is the
covert narcissism, because thatis the charm on the outside and
nobody knows what's happeningbehind closed doors, and part of
that.
We talked a little bit aboutgenerational things in our first
episode.
A lot of that is because ourgeneration was taught to sweep
(28:19):
things under the rug.
We were taught that you getmarried, you stay married.
It's not necessarily a goodmarriage, but you stay.
It doesn't really matter whathappens.
These are the people that arecheating, that have addictions
that can be physically abusiveas well.
They're the absent parent,often Physically they might be
(28:43):
there, but they're emotionallynot present, because they really
don't have the capacity toexperience emotions.
Evan (28:51):
Are they teachers who go right up to the line of
inappropriateness?
Melissa (28:55):
That would be that whole concept of exploitation
Exploiting people, making peoplefeel uncomfortable.
Exploitation exploiting people,making people feel
uncomfortable.
These are the people that knowwhat's going to irritate you and
they poke right in there toelicit the reaction.
So you look like the crazy one.
So think about it from theperspective of that partner, who
(29:18):
is now feeling like oh my goshA, is this all my fault?
What have I done wrong?
And part of that is becausesomeone who truly has
narcissistic personalitydisorder will choose a partner
that's probably already been avictim of abuse in another way.
It's somebody that's alreadybeen desensitized in some ways
(29:41):
to this, that doesn't have valueof self, doesn't believe that
they're worth more.
Evan (29:49):
Yeah, and again, people that are close to these people,
friends and colleagues, and theymay not even see this stuff, so
that when you do get to asituation where maybe somebody
is in a relationship with anarcissist a marriage or
something like that, and it endsup devolving into a court
situation where kids areinvolved or other kinds of
(30:10):
situations, it's reallydifficult for the legal system
to account for that kind ofnuanced narcissism right when
they may be able to project thatyou are the problem by
antagonizing you, and I thinkyou call that antagonistic,
reactive abuse, reactive abuse.
So how can you, when yourecognize the narcissism in your
(30:36):
partner, how can you helpyourself to not react or put
yourself in a better position?
Melissa (30:44):
Well, therapy and you're kind of touching on
something important, becausemost often everyone else around
you will pick up on it beforeyou do, and part of that is a
term that we call betrayalblindness.
It's where it is so hard to seethat someone who's supposed to
(31:05):
love you.
I often say in sessions youknow, we didn't get married
thinking, gee, I'd really liketo marry this person, buy a
house, have a couple kids, maybehave a career, and then you
know what?
I think it would be awesome tojust have it all implode and
realize that this person is notat all who I ever thought that
(31:29):
they were.
They're going to abuse me andthe kids.
Nobody's going to believe mebecause they're charming on the
outside.
I'm going to be condemned bythe police because I must just
be a vindictive woman who'strying to get custody of my kids
, and the court system won'tcare, because every parent
(31:50):
deserves the right to parent.
You know, all the while, singleparenting because they're
really not around.
That sounds awesome.
Let's sign up for that.
Evan (32:01):
Nobody does that.
Nobody does that.
Melissa (32:04):
We don't because we don't see it, and then, by the
time we do see it, it's too lateand we stay because,
fundamentally, we know our kidsaren't safe and as a mother, as
a mother who's done it, we willput ourselves in the middle.
And this is something that thefamily courts aren't even
equipped to understand, nor arethey equipped to understand the
(32:28):
impact that this pattern ofconduct has on children.
It's a gross lack ofrelationship that this
individual has, not just in thefamily but in society, and when
you look at kids, we want toknow what's that big event that
happened that caused this divideand the courts and even a lot
(32:53):
of clinicians needing tounderstand.
It's not one big event.
It's complex developmentaltrauma.
It's the fracture of what couldhave and should have been a
relationship between a parentand child, and as a society we
have a really hard timecomprehending and accepting the
(33:15):
fact that not every human isactually capable of relationship
.
Evan (33:21):
Yeah, I think that's a really hard thing to try to
convince ourselves is real right.
We want to know, we want tobelieve that the world is good,
that people are good in mass,that there's not a fair subset
of the society that's just notcapable of policing themselves
(33:43):
in a traditional way.
So you said it often comes fromoutside.
You'll sort of hear things fromout.
What kind of things will youhear?
And, by the way, I know youtalked about being a mother in a
relationship.
This is not a gender-specificthing.
Narcissism comes in male andfemale.
Melissa (34:03):
It absolutely does.
Evan (34:05):
So what kinds of things?
If you're in a relationshipwith someone who's a narcissist,
or maybe you have a child whois a manipulative narcissist,
what kinds of things are yougoing to hear from outside?
Melissa (34:17):
Well, I first want to say children cannot be diagnosed
with narcissistic personalitydisorder.
Evan (34:22):
Okay.
Melissa (34:23):
This is something that has to be the characteristics,
the traits will be present.
But, as I said, we don't takethis diagnosis lightly and it is
not something that is madeuntil after someone is an adult.
Evan (34:37):
So the other Does it have to do with the brain formation
and lots of things that aregoing on at that time that may
present multiple traits whenit's really just a phase?
Melissa (34:48):
It does, and part of it being a personality disorder is
it is actually ingrained in ourpersonality.
So it's a pattern of conductover time, and that time isn't
days.
A narcissist's favorite thingis to say, well, I'm going to
change, I'm going to do better,and it's words.
(35:30):
There's not action that goeswith it, and if there is any
type of action, it's extremelyshort-lived.
I came across something on it'sDeep Minds Anonymous.
I came across something on it'sdeep minds anonymous.
That's just one of theorganizations I guess groups
that I follow personally onFacebook, and here's what it
(35:52):
says.
This is how empaths andnarcissists are born.
Both come from childhoods wherelove felt unsafe, inconsistent
or conditional.
Both are children of trauma.
Both found a way to survive.
The empath survived by feelingmore, scanning the room, reading
(36:12):
emotions, anticipating needs,hoping that if they could keep
everyone happy, they'd finallyfeel safe.
The narcissist survived byfeeling less, shutting down
their vulnerability, buildingwalls, deciding that if they
only cared about themselves, noone could ever hurt them again.
Neither is weak, neither isstrong.
(36:35):
Both are adaptations, both arewounds.
But survival is not the same ashealing.
And if we don't heal, thosechildhood strategies can follow
us into adulthood, shaping theway we love the way we connect
and the way we see ourselvespain.
(36:59):
And it goes back to how do Isee that world around me?
Am I the center or am I thelittle peon?
And how do I use my powers?
Do I?
Evan (37:16):
use my power of feeling and connecting for good, or do I
use it for evil, right?
So what kinds of things willyou hear from friends or family-
?
Melissa (37:22):
You won't.
Evan (37:22):
About a narcissist that would trigger you to say wait a
minute.
You won't.
Melissa (37:29):
You won't Because you've been married before.
Evan (37:32):
Yes.
Melissa (37:34):
If one of your friends or family members came to you
and said this person's no good.
These are the red flags.
Don't do it.
What would you have done?
You'd have done it anyway.
Evan (37:46):
Yeah, I mean I might have had those kinds of conversations
with, like, a parent that mayor may not be a father.
Melissa (37:52):
Right.
Well, and oftentimes again, youlove this person.
You're not marrying thembecause you don't like them and
we get tunnel vision.
We don't want to see otherthings, because there's a reason
we're marrying them, whetherthat's because she's already
pregnant and having your child,or whether it's because you're
(38:13):
young and scared that you won'tfind anything better and you
don't want to lose your hopesand dreams of having kids and a
home and it's going to be okay,right.
Evan (38:24):
But some people have those friends, that will say
something.
Melissa (38:29):
If somebody is not ready to hear it, though,
they're not going to hear it.
Evan (38:33):
Fair enough.
Melissa (38:34):
So most often we either ignore feedback and sometimes
we're cognizant enough to sayyou know what.
You're right.
That is definitely the case andthere's nothing I can do about
it, because I need to keep mychildren safe.
Sure, and they won't be if I'mnot there.
(38:54):
So often people don't sayanything because they also don't
want to disrupt theirrelationship with you, and, from
experience, as soon as they dosay something, they then become
enemy number one.
Evan (39:08):
What then becomes the generational impact of a
narcissist?
It sounds like that's justsomething that's going to be
self-fulfilling over and over,and over and over again as
generations progress.
Melissa (39:21):
So what happens is you have kids that either are
extremely passive andpeople-pleasing and in that case
these are people who neverlearn to stand up for themselves
and then engage with abusiveindividuals who follow the same
pattern as that parent.
On the flip side of that, youhave someone who's modeling this
(39:44):
behavior for the nextgeneration.
They're modeling the lack ofvalue in other humans, that
respect isn't necessary, thateveryone else is there to meet
your needs, and then theyperpetuate that same cycle.
So you either have someone thathas no idea or value no idea of
(40:05):
who they are, because all theyare is what they're told.
You're going to do this.
This is the parent who demandstheir child go to school for
nursing.
Because they went to school fornursing or because they wanted
to be a nurse, didn't make it tonursing school, maybe became a
CNA or something instead, butwill tell everyone that they're
(40:28):
a nurse and that their child isgoing to be a nurse.
Their kids live out theirfantasies, their failures, that
they can't accept.
At the end of the day, theperson with narcissistic
personality disorder is theperson who would rather walk
away from everyone and maintaintheir own version of who they
(40:49):
are than to be exposed.
Evan (40:51):
As a clinician, do you treat narcissists?
Do you treat the people thatare around narcissists?
Melissa (40:57):
Do I or does anybody?
Evan (41:07):
Narcissist?
No, I'm specifically asking youbecause of your specialty,
because of your knowledge andunderstanding of narcissism.
Obviously, therapy, like manyother professions, has lots of
different levels ofqualifications, right?
Can you find somebody that's aCPA that will do your taxes
improperly, absolutely?
Can you find somebody that's aCPA that will do your taxes
improperly, absolutely?
Can you find somebody who's atherapist that will do your
therapy, improperly or not?
(41:29):
Absolutely At a high level,absolutely right.
So there's always going to bedifferent levels in each
profession, but do you believethere's anything like a
recovering narcissist, similarto like a recovering addict?
Do you treat narcissists?
Do you focus on trying to helppeople who have been victims of
(41:51):
narcissists?
Melissa (41:52):
So for me personally, no, I do not treat narcissists
and I will tell you, they arevery infrequently found in a
therapy room because they wouldhave to have the ability to
self-reflect and typically theydon't have the ability to see
themselves through a differentlens.
Evan (42:10):
It's very rare they see themselves in the mirror and go
God, I'm a narcissist, I got tochange.
Melissa (42:14):
Exactly that's kind of part of what makes them a
narcissist is they have anunrealistic view of themselves
and their relationships witheverybody around them.
Evan (42:23):
I guess kind of like the namesake of narcissism,
narcissus right.
Looks in the mirror and seeswhat it wants to see?
Melissa (42:28):
Absolutely.
And it's not that these peopleare lying or delusional.
They truly believe thatreflection.
So if somebody truly believesthe reflection they see, why
would they go to therapy?
Well, most often becausethey're told by a partner you
need to go with me if you haveany hope.
(42:48):
So if you find a narcissist ina therapy office, it's probably
because they're forced to bethere and they believe that
merely by sitting there it'sgoing to accomplish what they
want, which is for the therapistto view them as the normal one
and to tell the partner they'recrazy.
Evan (43:08):
How does that usually go?
Melissa (43:10):
It depends on the therapist.
Evan (43:14):
In your practice.
Melissa (43:15):
It does not go well.
It does not go well because Ihave a habit of being very
direct and it's part of why thistraining, and this
certification specifically, isso important, because these are
charming people and they willcome in and they will convince a
(43:37):
therapist that they're theharmed party, and this person
just gets angry with them andputs them down and doesn't let
them do anything, and then theother party will explode and say
this is what they do.
You know, none of this is real.
It's an act, it's a show, andthey look like the crazy one.
So, as someone who's certified,I am certified to identify
(44:02):
these patterns, to see throughrelationships, to the heart of
what's going on, to dissectthings, to look at the impact on
things, like on people, likechildren, and look at the traits
that children have and be ableto see wow, this is probably
(44:23):
where this comes from.
Let's look a little deeper.
I am also certified to treatthe survivors of this abuse
because it comes with guilt andshame and an identity crisis of
living so many years inconfusion and chaos.
Evan (44:44):
Yeah, I know you said earlier that you have lived
experience in what you do and Ithink it's important that people
understand that, especiallywith you and I think with most
people who have your level oftraining and certification, that
you know most of the timeyou're individuals who have been
(45:05):
through this yourselves andthat you know, when you put
yourself out there and you'reready to, you know to move on or
transition from a narcissistand get away from that kind of a
situation, that you look forsomeone who has that level of
understanding that can help youthrough it, because it, I think,
(45:26):
really does mean a lot knowingthat the person sitting across
from you has actively lived thator knows where you're coming
from.
And you know every circumstanceis different.
Right, everything is a littlebit different.
Nobody can really know whatsomebody else is feeling
necessarily, but if you've beenthrough something similar, if
(45:47):
you've gone through that kind oftrauma before, you have a much
better chance of to feel crazy.
Melissa (45:52):
You understand what it's like to doubt if you're in
reality to question if you arethe devil, if everything this
person has put in your mind isactually true, and recognizing
(46:19):
that this person sitting withyou can sit there and say,
realizing that this personsitting with you can sit there
and say, hey, you know what, Iknow what it's like to feel
crazy to question everythingabout your decision-making,
about your choices, your abilityto survive, because you've been
told you won't survive withoutme.
(46:40):
Nobody else is going to wantyou and all of those things are
very intentional to keep youthere.
Evan (46:48):
And then what you're saying now, though, is that
there's a way beyond that.
There's a path beyond that.
I heard you say that peoplethat are in those situations
feel like there's no other way.
They have to be there for theirkids and you know nobody will
ever believe them, and all ofthose things, but there are
people like you out there whowill.
(47:09):
There are people like you outthere who can help them.
There are people like you outthere who will advocate for them
.
You know we could get in anotherepisode talk about your CV and
all the things that you've doneyou've done at various levels of
the legal system, and all ofthose things, but the important
(47:30):
part is, if you are listening tothis and you are feeling any of
this is like something that'stouching your life that there
are people if it's not Melissa,there's people like Melissa out
there who can help you.
There are people who can guideyou in the right direction.
There are people who have beenthrough this before.
You're not alone.
(47:50):
You are not, you know, in aposition that you're not able to
get out of.
There's a path forward, and youknow the first step is to go
ask.
Melissa (47:59):
Well, and one of the biggest pieces of it is you've
lived in such confusion for solong that to go even to therapy
with someone like me it'squestioning again am I crazy?
Am I a narcissist?
Am I delusional?
Am I doing the right thing?
(48:20):
Because innately you've puteverybody else first for so long
that it's hard to see throughthe trees on that and it takes
somebody who has a lot of skilland experience to help you look
inside yourself for thoseanswers.
It's helping you trust your gutand your intuition again.
Evan (48:44):
Yeah, I mean the moral of the story that I heard from you
before.
The takeaway that I had wasthat, if you can ask yourself if
you're a narcissist, you're not, you're not.
Melissa (48:55):
You're not.
And these are also the peoplewho ask themselves am I with
somebody who's narcissistic?
And then come up with 18reasons to justify why they're
not and what else it couldpossibly be, because it's that
hard to face.
Not only that you made thatchoice, but that by making that
(49:15):
choice, you made that choice foryour children.
Evan (49:18):
We're gonna talk about choices in a future episode, but
I guess we've gotta leave ithere.
So again, if you are feelingany of these things, if any of
this has touched you, we wantyou to find peace and find
happiness and heal.
Melissa (49:33):
And we want you to reach out and share your story
and know that you are not alonein this.
Part of why we're doing thispodcast is to bring light into
some of these dark, dark placesand to let people know you are
not alone in this.
And there's power in numbers,there's power in voices, there's
(49:54):
power in people collectivelycoming together and saying no
more.
I am going to stand in this gapso that this does not pass on
to my children and together, asa society, as communities, we
can say our children deservebetter.
Evan (50:11):
Yeah, evil flourishes in the darkness and the light
exposes it.
And I think, you know, we justhave to be willing to have these
kinds of discussions.
We have to be willing to talkabout these things and not be
afraid to share our stories, notbe afraid to, you know, be
introspective, yes, but also,you know, be able to look at
(50:33):
those around us, be able to look, you know, to our friends, to
our family, and have these kindsof conversations in a much more
open fashion than what we, youknow, have recently.
It's become taboo to have thesekinds of discussions in a much
more open fashion than what wehave recently.
It's become taboo to have thesekinds of discussions, and we're
here to talk about things thatother people won't talk about.
Melissa (50:49):
And to increase education for people, so that
instead of looking at someoneand saying, gosh, why did you
stay, it's an understanding ofwow, that's really amazing that
you stayed as long as you didand and were so protective and
are continuing quite honestly toanybody who's with one of these
people.
Still, you're a rock star forcontinuing to stand in that gap
(51:13):
and keep your kids safe.
Evan (51:15):
Yeah, and don't be afraid to say this is what I'm seeing,
this is the truth, because eventhough you know that person may
not want to hear it in thatmoment, if they don't ever hear
it, then they'll never know whatthey're missing.
So you know, don't be afraid tohave those kinds of
conversations and discussions.
Melissa (51:34):
And if you're unsafe, get help.
Yeah.
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