October 14, 2025 • 49 mins
A quiet morning catch-up turns into a charged exploration of where therapy ends and state power begins. We dig into Colorado’s HB 19-1129 and the case of a licensed, faith-based counselor challenging the state’s ban on “conversion therapy” for minors, asking whether the law polices harmful conduct—or polices words and beliefs in the treatment room. Along the way, we read the statutory definition, examine what it does and doesn’t allow, and test it against real scenarios where a teen asks for guidance aligned with their faith or seeks affirmation amid family conflict.
From there, we open the lens: How do clergy carve-outs square with tighter rules for licensed clinicians who operate under codes of ethics and disciplinary oversight? Could bans unintentionally push sensitive identity work into less regulated spaces? We trace the patchwork of state laws, the split in federal courts, and why the Supreme Court’s review could reset the boundaries of professional speech for therapists, physicians, and teachers. Grounding the legal questions are clinical fundamentals—do no harm, client autonomy, informed consent—and the crucial difference between exploration and direction. We also confront tough edge cases: What counts as harmful speech in therapy, and what’s just radical candor? Where is the line between respecting conscience and imposing values?
Finally, we tackle the age question and the “follow the science” refrain. If neurodevelopment justifies bright lines at 18, what about the prefrontal cortex maturing into the mid-20s? If minors lack capacity for certain decisions, how do policy carve-outs stay coherent? No easy answers here—only a reasoned, good-faith attempt to map the terrain so you can decide what’s consistent, ethical, and sustainable for kids, families, and clinicians. If thoughtful debate is your thing, you’ll feel at home.
If this conversation made you think, subscribe, share it with a friend, and leave a review with your take. And tell us: should licensed therapists be free to counsel minors consistent with a minor’s faith and goals, or should the state draw the line?
Facebook & Instagram: @Theunmentionablespodcast
Twitter/X: @UnmentionablesX
YouTube: @TheUnmentionnablesPodcast
TikTok: @theunmentionablespodcast
Web: https://heart4change.org/heart-for-change-media
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Evan (01:16):
Welcome back to another episode of the Unmentionables
podcast.
This is Evan, as always, herewith Melissa.
Melissa (01:24):
Good morning.
Evan (01:25):
Good morning, Melissa.
How are you?
Melissa (01:26):
I'm doing good.
I've had my coffee ready to go.
Evan (01:30):
Yeah, I heard you got a hand delivered at in the parking
lot at Starbucks.
Melissa (01:36):
This random guy just showed up at the side of my my
car with coffee and a sandwich.
Evan (01:42):
And knew exactly what you wanted.
I know, right?
It's weird.
It's weird how that happens.
Love it.
So we have a couple of thingsto talk about today, as usual.
We have a backlog for those ofyou that don't know.
Melissa (01:53):
Well, you know, when you go to fun country events,
sometimes we miss a production.
Evan (01:59):
Yeah, yeah.
So we have a backlog of topicsto talk about.
There is one that is, you know,top of mind, important.
It's been mentioned in the newsand some, you know, on some
radio shows and podcastsrecently.
It's a topic out of the stateof Colorado, and it impacts the
mental health therapy space.
(02:20):
And it kind of relates to aprevious episode that we did on
gender ideology.
And this one is uh ColoradoLaw, House Bill 19-1129.
And this law is about what theycall conversion therapy.
And we'll talk a little bitabout the definition of
(02:41):
conversion therapy as we gothrough this.
So I want to give a quicksummary of the law in Colorado,
this House bill in Colorado, andthe case that's surrounding it,
in case some of our listenersmay not be familiar with it.
This is uh Chiles v Salazar.
This is about Kaylee Chiles, alicensed professional counselor
(03:02):
and a Christian counselorspecifically, who runs a
faith-based practice inColorado, and she is challenging
a 2019 law that bans licensedtherapists from providing, you
know, quote unquote conversiontherapy to minors.
She is arguing that the banviolates free speech and free
exercise of religion.
The state says it's aprofessional conduct regulation,
(03:23):
not censorship of speech.
The Supreme Court heard ouroral arguments on October 7th,
and the decision around thiscould reshape how states
regulate speech insideprofessional practice.
But Melissa, I really want tostart with a question for you.
As a therapist, if you'rehelping a minor explore
identity, that's consideredspeech.
(03:44):
But when the state is banningcertain conversations, is that
regulating treatment or thought?
And where's the line betweenprotecting kids from harm and
protecting adults' right toadvise according to their
conscience?
Melissa (03:57):
Sure.
That's a great question.
You know, as a clinician, we'reobviously regulated by the
state licensing body.
And in social work, we have acode of ethics, psychology does
as well.
And they're not exactly thesame.
There are minute differencesthat exist.
(04:18):
But the foundation of this isfirst do no harm.
And when our clients come tous, our personal views and
beliefs shouldn't be playing arole unless that's the type of
organization that you're in.
So if you have a Christiancounseling agency and that's
(04:40):
what they are advertised as, ofcourse, you're gonna expect a
faith-based Christian counselorand all of the worldviews that
go with that.
Evan (04:51):
Sure.
Melissa (04:52):
When we're in a traditional counseling practice,
we recognize that there arepeople that come from all
different places in life.
You have faith-basedclinicians, you have
non-faith-based clinicians, youhave spiritual ones.
And that should never play arole unless a client is
explicitly asking for someonewho comes from one perspective
(05:17):
or another.
And at that point, you know,we're able to say, yes, I align
with that, no, I don't, youknow, how does your religion or
faith or worldview impact thissituation?
So I think it's veryinteresting that they're coming
in now in Colorado and trying tolimit the faith-based
(05:42):
practices.
And there's there doesn't seemto be a recognition of what is
my client asking of me?
And is that what I amproviding?
Yeah.
I don't know if I answered yourquestion.
Evan (05:55):
That's a great perspective.
Melissa (05:56):
Do you think we could talk about maybe the definition
that they're using of conversiontherapy?
And then maybe I can talk alittle bit about what I think it
is.
Evan (06:08):
Sure, sure.
Yeah, so you know, again, thisis the Colorado law.
You guys listening can look itup on your own to see the words
for yourself in the originaltext.
That's House Bill 19-1129concerning prohibiting a mental
health care provider fromengaging in conversion therapy
with a patient under the age of18 years of age.
And what this bill essentiallydoes is it modifies various
(06:32):
sections of Colorado law.
Most bills are like this,right?
So if it's not an originallywritten piece of legislation,
most legislation is amendingsomething or amending sections,
things like this is all sort oflegal, you know, government
inside baseball that wouldconfuse most people.
And, you know, if we went back10 or 15 years before I was a
(06:53):
Tea Party advocate and and andyou know founder, I wouldn't
have known any of this either.
But I my got my uh baptismunder fire by reading the
Obamacare legislation when itcame out and learning how to
read legislation.
So just shortcutting it forthose of you who may not be.
Melissa's eyes are rolling intothe back of her head right now.
Melissa (07:15):
How many pages was that?
Evan (07:17):
Thousands.
I don't have the exact number.
I think it was like 1700something pages.
Melissa (07:21):
And how many politicians actually read the
whole thing?
Evan (07:23):
Well, I can tell you this for certain because I was in
Delaware at the time, MikeCastle did not.
And I know that because we hadhim cornered on a at a
conference table at one pointwith the Tea Party people
sitting around the table, and weall asked him point blank, Did
you read it?
Did you read it?
And he he hemmed and hauled andeventually said, No, that's why
I have staffers.
And I said, So you haven't reada page of this bill.
(07:44):
I've read the entire thing.
We've all sitting around thistable read the entire thing, and
you haven't read any of it, andyou're the one that's gonna
vote on it.
Melissa (07:50):
Right.
Evan (07:50):
And we told him about things that were in the bill,
and he's like, I don't believethat's actually in there.
And I'm like, well, here's thesection page, whatever.
And he goes, Well, I can'tsupport that.
And I was like, but you havealready voted for it.
Melissa (08:02):
I I think it is fascinating how many people that
are supposed to be reading thisstuff are depending on other
people for interpretations.
Evan (08:11):
Well, remember the famous line from Nancy Pelosi about the
Obamacare bill.
We have to pass the bill tofind out what is in it.
Melissa (08:19):
Oh.
Evan (08:20):
So let's talk about this Colorado law that they passed
before I think anybody of anysubstance read it.
Melissa (08:27):
Thought about what was actually in it and how it would
impact practice.
Evan (08:29):
Exactly, exactly.
So you asked how they defineconversion therapy.
And, you know, again, as youread the law, you're going to
see conversion therapy definedseveral times.
It's pretty much the exact samedefinition, just plugged into
different areas.
There are areas of the law thatcover physicians and areas of
the law that covers licensedpractitioners like social
(08:50):
workers and therapists, right?
So they're different areasbecause one deals with social
work and mental health, and onedeals with medical physicians,
right?
Conversion therapy, this isfrom the from the bill.
Conversion therapy means anypractice or treatment by a
licensed physician or therapistspecializing in the practice of
psychiatry that attempts topurport or purports to change an
(09:13):
individual's sexual orientationor gender identity, including
efforts to change behaviors orgender expressions, or to
eliminate or reduce sexual orromantic attraction or feelings
toward individuals of the samesex.
Conversion therapy does notinclude practices or treatments
that provide acceptance,support, and understanding for
(09:33):
the facilitation of anindividual's coping, social
support, and identityexploration and development,
including sexual orientationneutral interventions to prevent
or address unlawful contact orunsafe sexual practices, as long
as the counselor does not seekto change sexual orientation or
gender identity or assistassistance to a person
(09:53):
undergoing gender transition.
There is a lot there.
So it goes on to further definein the statute that
unprofessional conduct, as usedin this article, means engaging
in conversion therapy with apatient who is under 18 years of
age.
They talk about certifiedaddiction counselors, they talk
about you know licensed socialworkers or you know therapists,
(10:16):
they talk about physicians and Iwant to know, right?
Melissa (10:20):
Is it conversion therapy if a client comes to me
and says it's against my beliefsto, you know, feel like I'm a
different gender.
I want you to help me figureout why I feel this way and you
(10:41):
know, help help me not feel thisway anymore.
Evan (10:45):
As the law reads, and this is the crux of the reason why
this lawsuit was brought byKaley Chiles in, you know, filed
in 2019 immediately after thelaw was passed, and it's been
through district court inColorado and the 10th Circuit
Court and is now sitting at theSupreme Court.
But that's the reason why shebrought this case, is because
(11:05):
it's that is the way herpractice is set up.
So she is a certifiedcounselor, a licensed, you know,
clinical social worker.
She has a practice where it isfaith-based and it is very clear
that she is faith-based.
Her clients come to herspecifically because she is
faith-based and she is givingthem the faith faith-based
(11:26):
perspectives on this.
That doesn't mean she's aminister.
She's not a pastor, which bythe way, in the law, there is a
carve-out for the ministry andpastors.
However, those ministry andpastors cannot actually say say
that they have a license inclinical social work, even if
they do, right?
They can't promote that becausethen it becomes professional
(11:49):
conduct versus a religious.
Melissa (11:51):
Sure.
And here's where I really seethe difference.
And I do want to note, she isan LPC, which is a degree in
psychology and very differentthan what we do in social work,
social work being an art andpsychology being a science.
But I think the real contentionhere is if I am first to do no
(12:13):
harm, that means that I'mlooking to my client for what is
it that you feel isn't goingwell for you or right for you
right now?
What changes do you want tomake?
And how can I help you getthere?
Evan (12:31):
Is that a difference without a
distinction?
That's a word, betweenexploration and direction.
Direction seems to me I'mguiding you where I want you to
go.
Where exploration is like, talkto me.
Tell me what you're feeling,and you know, I can help you
navigate the road because it'snot easy, right?
(12:51):
But I'm not going to tell youwhether you're right or wrong.
Is that what basically you'retalking about?
Melissa (12:56):
Social work is a very holistic field.
And we do for the most part,most of us that are are trained
under a social work degree orlicense believe that we're just
there to help somebody else.
We're on that path toparticipate in their journey.
But the journey is theirs todetermine where they want to go.
(13:20):
So if I have a client thatcomes in and says, Hey, I really
want to cheat on my spouse, I'mgonna sit back and say, Okay,
let's explore that.
Let's talk about the differentpossibilities that come from
that.
And that client might say, youknow, I think I'm gonna get this
need met.
This person listens to me andhears me.
(13:44):
And, you know, I think thatthis is this is the right path.
Okay, well, what are some otherpaths that this might take?
What are what are some otherpossibilities?
She might say, Well, you know,my spouse could get mad.
Okay.
And what would happen fromthat?
You know, our job is to ask thequestions, kind of like your
job here.
You ask the questions and Igive you the answers.
(14:07):
And and that's coming fromLancaster County, right?
There used to be conversioncamps where the parent, and you
particularly saw this in thereligious communities, the the
Mennonite, the Amish.
If a child was homosexual, sendthem to conversion camp.
(14:27):
We'll make them be straight.
And I think that was the intentof the law was that we can't
impose something on someone ifthat's not what they desire for
their own life.
We're talking about autonomyhere.
And we see autonomy come out inso, so many places in our
(14:52):
society these days.
We talk about autonomy with ourkids.
You know, children have theautonomy to determine who do I
want to have relationships with?
Evan (15:00):
Yeah.
Melissa (15:01):
What relationships feel good, what relationships don't
feel good.
They have autonomy to makethose decisions, at least they
should.
So it basically told theclinical community we're not
going to allow providers orparents to force their values
onto children.
Evan (15:21):
It's interesting that you bring up Pennsylvania because uh
in addition to Colorado, thereare numerous other states.
I think in total, it's 23states plus DC that have enacted
comprehensive bans restrictinglicensed mental health
professionals from fromperforming conversion therapy on
minors.
And since you brought upPennsylvania, I happen to have
(15:43):
looked up the Pennsylvaniaregulatory landscape around
this.
And there is an existingstatute from 2023 that prohibits
mental health professionals.
This is a quote from fromPennsylvania, an act prohibiting
mental health professionalsfrom engaging in conversion
therapy with an individual under18 years of age.
And it the text statesprohibiting mental health
(16:06):
professionals from engaging inconversion therapy with an
individual under 18 years ofage.
Being lesbian, gay, or bisexualis not a disease, disorder,
illness, deficiency, orshortcoming.
The major professionalassociations of mental health
practitioners have recognizedthis fact for more than 40
years.
Portions of this are still incommittee being legislated or
(16:27):
being worked through.
But in August of 2022, GovernorWolf signed an executive order
directing state agencies toensure that no funds, no state
funds, are used to supportconversion therapy.
So that portions of this arealready sort of de facto
happening, even though theyreally haven't made it all the
way fully through thePennsylvania General Assembly.
Melissa (16:49):
I actually remember when this came out, and I
remember having theseconversations that all revolved
around I can't force my beliefson somebody else.
And parents ought to not beforcing their own beliefs or
(17:10):
choices onto children.
And so that meant a parentcouldn't drag their kid to
therapy and demand that I makesure that they have the same
religious beliefs as the parent.
And it honestly just seemedlike common sense to us because
(17:33):
you can't force anyone to changeat all in any area unless it's
a change that they see aswarranted and want to invest
themselves in that process.
Evan (17:46):
Well, and I yeah, again, you keep bringing up things that
I'm about to discuss.
So I appreciate you being ableto read my mind.
I guess that's what makes you agood therapist.
There, let's talk about thereligious carve out and what
this looks like.
Colorado and most of theseother states, they say that
pastors can still do this.
They can have these conversiontherapy discussions with minors
(18:10):
or adults or whatever, becausethey're outside of the
professional licensing system,but licensed Christian
counselors providing faith-basedtherapy can't.
Is that punishingprofessionalism or is it
protecting religious spaceswhile holding licensed health
providers to the secular medicalstandard?
Melissa (18:29):
So I think this is really interesting actually,
because A, I definitely thinkthat it's it's protecting
religious freedom.
But at least in our area, ifyou look at Christian counseling
agencies, which we have a greatnumber of them in our county,
(18:49):
what you will find is the vastmajority of people who are
employed at these practices, A,the practices do not typically
take insurance, and B, yourclinicians are not actually
licensed.
They don't take insurance, sothey don't have to be licensed.
Evan (19:08):
It's an interesting distinction.
Melissa (19:10):
It is.
So for example, I could have adegree in social work, I could
have an MSW and go work at aChristian counseling agency.
Evan (19:20):
Oh, but you don't have to be licensed by the state board.
Correct.
You you can you still wouldwant to have the credentials
that say I've went through I'vegone through school.
I know what I'm talking about.
I'm not, I'm not Evan sittingdown at the table and saying,
tell me about your feelings.
Melissa (19:35):
Well, and the reality is, yeah, do you learn some
stuff in a master's program thatmight help in a therapy room?
Sure.
But it is truly our licensethat says it says we passed a
test on it.
So it means you're very good atanswering multiple choice
questions.
And you know what is the valuein that?
(19:58):
Uh honestly, I'm not reallysure on the test side of it, but
from a licensing side, itreally does hold licensed
clinicians to a higher standard.
And it says if you don't followthese ethical, which are mostly
basic common sense ethicalpractices, then there's going to
(20:21):
be some kind of disciplinarysomething that happens.
Where people over in the faith,the the Christian counseling
side, if they are not upheld tothat licensing standard, there
is nobody to report them to, toreport misconduct.
There, there's no way to comeback and say, you hurt me in
(20:44):
this.
And they can absolutely imposetheir own will and values onto
the people they see.
And that is something thatpeople need to know walking in
there.
Evan (20:56):
Well, and I think we we should also mention that this is
a when we talk about Christiancounseling, we shouldn't just
put it in the perspective ofChristians, right?
There are many faiths outthere.
Islam is one, for example, thatthat harshly judges
homosexuality and sexualdeviance in a lot of ways.
And there are specific Islamiccenters that have their own
(21:21):
Islamic faith-based counselorsas well, typically tied to your
mosques or tied to your Islamiccenters, that would also be
affected by this as well, right?
This is this is any kind offaith-based test that goes
against the general idea thatthe individual is allowed to
make their own decision on theirsexuality.
Melissa (21:40):
Here's the problem, though, right?
Is we can't confuse the termChristian counselor and
faith-based practitioner.
Evan (21:48):
Right.
Melissa (21:48):
They are two separate things.
And a Christian counselor uhisn't even a real thing because
you're either there's a hugedifference.
This actually just came up inour practice recently.
There is a huge differencebetween spiritual guidance and
(22:10):
mental health counseling.
Evan (22:12):
Right.
I would consider a Christiancounselor to be an elder at
church, it could be, you know, achurch leader of some kind, it
could be a pastor, it could be ayouth pastor.
There's lots of ways to talkabout what Christian counselor
quote unquote refers to.
Yes, yeah, lay.
But from the perspective ofwhat's in the book.
Melissa (22:34):
Correct.
So, you know, and I don't meanthe DSM 5.
No, personally, right?
I am a faith-basedpractitioner, which means as a
clinical social worker, Ideeply, deeply value and respect
that you have your own beliefsand morals that guide you.
(23:00):
And mine are irrelevant in thepractice that I do unless you
specifically want to know that Icome from the same foundational
worldview as you do, in whichcase we come at things from the
same direction.
(23:20):
But if you want to explore yourfaith and your relationship
with God, I'm gonna say, I thinkyou need to find a pastor or
spiritual mentor to go talk to.
I'm here to deal with themental health side, the anxiety,
the depression.
We actually can't billinsurance if it's not related to
(23:41):
a DSM disorder.
Evan (23:43):
Oh wow.
Yep.
So, you know, if a if aChristian teen asks to align
with their beliefs, should thatrequest be then off limits for a
licensed counselor?
Or if a teen, another teenwants affirmation, should that
be legally protected speech, butthe opposite viewpoint banned?
Melissa (24:00):
Break that down for me.
Evan (24:01):
So if you have if you have two patients, two, you know,
folks who come in, and one ofthem asks to align with their
beliefs.
So they come into you and theysay, Look, I'm a Christian, I am
homosexual, I'm attracted tomen, and you know, I know that
this doesn't line up with mybeliefs.
(24:22):
Can you help me understand andalign my feelings and the the
you know uh internals of whatI'm feeling with my faith?
Versus you have anotherteenager that comes in and says,
I was born a girl, but I I Ifeel like I'm a boy.
I want you to, you know, affirmthat and and accept me for who
(24:47):
I believe that I am.
Melissa (24:48):
I would say, Why are you here then?
To the second one.
Because like, what are weworking on?
Evan (24:55):
Well, maybe they feel like people around them aren't
affirming them, and that is youknow, uh harming their mental
health, and they they wantsomebody to tell them that it's
okay to be who they want to beversus maybe who they already
are.
Melissa (25:10):
So absolutely that's a clinical concept of how do I
separate myself and what Ibelieve from what others think I
should be.
We can absolutely sit down andtalk through that and figure out
how to help you stand in yourown identity instead of wavering
(25:30):
to the identity that othersbelieve you should be.
Absolutely.
And for the first person, wenavigate that by okay, let's
explore that together.
Let's explore those feelingsand where they come from.
And with anybody who comes in,if you're just going to therapy
for somebody to tell you whatyou want to hear, that's awful.
(25:52):
I don't know who else to putit.
Because any clinician who justsits there and is a yes person
and agrees with everything yousay, and that's awful therapy.
Why in the world would you goto therapy unless you have a
serious personality disorder?
Just to hear your awesome,great job.
Evan (26:15):
Yeah.
Melissa (26:15):
I mean, the average person wants to engage in
therapy because there'ssomething they want to change.
They can't figure it out, andthey need help, somebody to
maybe ask the right questions ortake them on a path of many
paths of exploring.
What I've found is there's somany providers.
(26:38):
It's just talk therapy.
Evan (26:41):
Yeah.
Melissa (26:41):
Let's just talk.
Evan (26:42):
Right.
Melissa (26:43):
And they don't know or just aren't proficient enough.
I don't know what it is.
They don't dig to the roots.
Evan (26:52):
We've talked about that many times already, and and many
times more.
Root causes seem to be anabstract concept for a lot of
people, and they don't reallyunderstand it.
And in in the case of KaleyChiles, who's she's a practicing
Christian, she contends thatalthough she doesn't try to
convert her client, she does tryto help them with objectives
(27:12):
that may include seeking toreduce or eliminate unwanted
sexual attractions or becomingmore comfortable with their
bodies.
This sounds to me in the waythat it's framed, like when she
sits down with her patient, withher client, she sits down with
them and she says, What do youwant to achieve?
What are your goals?
What are your objectives thatyou want to get out of this?
(27:33):
Sure.
And they may say to her, Look,I don't, I know my value set
says X, and I'm way over heredoing Z, and I don't want that.
I want to get back to my valueset.
How do I do that?
This sounds like a law thatwould bar her from doing that.
Melissa (27:50):
Well, and let's be real.
No client is gonna seek her outif they want to be affirmed in
things that they know violatethe Christian faith.
Evan (27:59):
Right.
Right.
And right now there's legalprecedent and principle around
this from both directions.
So there's laws that havecompelled certain speech to be
available by crisis pregnancycenters.
Melissa (28:13):
Okay.
Evan (28:14):
There's also laws that have upheld the conversion
therapy ban.
Melissa (28:19):
Right.
Evan (28:20):
So this there it's sort of a split right now in the
federal judiciary, which is whythis is now at the Supreme
Court.
And this could potentiallyresolve that split.
And I think where it becomesextremely important, especially
in your field, is this canredefine how far states can go
in telling doctors, therapists,and even teachers what they can
(28:42):
and can't say.
Melissa (28:43):
Right.
Well, and I think that's theinteresting piece of this,
right?
Is what can government controlor regulate?
Well, government can controland regulate the people that it
licenses as clinicians, but thegovernment can't regulate
religion.
Evan (28:57):
And it can't regulate speech.
Just did an equalizer episodeon this the other day, and and
how, you know, how far thegovernment does try to push into
that realm for various reasons,some of them quite good.
Things like hate speech and allof that is is extremely
important to consider when wetalk about speech and what's
(29:18):
good and what's bad.
But, you know, government,thanks to the First Amendment,
really doesn't have the right topolice or limit speech.
The the policing around speechis done by us as individuals, as
companies, as organizations.
We can choose to make peoplepariahs, we can choose to make
people who have aberrant speechnot part of our organization,
(29:42):
but but the government can'tenforce those regulations on
them, at least at the federallevel.
Melissa (29:47):
You know, I I find an interesting correlation here,
right?
Because super controversialagain, right?
The desire to restrict accessto guns.
And we recognize that we canput all the laws we want in
place, and it is not going toprevent the criminals from
(30:08):
obtaining weapons.
Evan (30:10):
Bad actor is gonna act bad.
Melissa (30:12):
Correct.
Well, it's no different intherapy.
Evan (30:15):
Yeah.
Melissa (30:15):
A bad actor is gonna act bad, and they might give up
their license and practicewithout one and not take
insurance.
And that's that's one of thosebig parts here, I think, is that
while its intention is to stopharm to children, those of us
with the license are typicallynot the ones doing it.
(30:36):
Right.
Because we have this code ofethics that says first do no
harm.
It's the people we're now beingregulated here on stuff that's
common sense, and the peoplethat aren't operating under
those same standards are theones that are still able to do
(30:56):
it.
Evan (30:57):
Absolutely.
I want to kind of bring allthis together.
Couple of few questions foryou.
What counts as harmful speechin therapy?
Melissa (31:06):
Oh my goodness.
Can we define harmful speech?
Evan (31:09):
Uh I'm looking to you as the therapist with the ethics
and the moral code to tell mewhat you would consider.
Consider harmful speech to betherapy.
Melissa (31:19):
Because I don't think there's anything in our code of
ethics that says no harmfulspeech, right?
Evan (31:24):
Well, I I mean I would imagine that things that would
come into this realm would bethings I wouldn't even imagine
saying.
Things you would never say.
Go kill yourself.
Melissa (31:33):
Oh my gosh.
That would be a harm.
Yes, that would be harmful.
Evan (31:36):
Right.
Melissa (31:36):
Yes.
Evan (31:37):
You know, you're you're not worthy of love.
That's those kinds of negative.
Melissa (31:43):
So counterproductive.
Evan (31:44):
Sure.
It's a it's the antithesis, Ithink, of what your yes, therapy
for sure, but also so let wellwell, let's bring this, let's
bring this back to somethingsome somebody that you people
may know.
Let's talk about Dr.
Laura.
Yes.
Dr.
Laura is extremely candid.
She practices radicaltransparency.
She doesn't put up with abunch.
(32:05):
She's, by the way, if you don'tknow, she's on Sirius XM and a
bunch of radio stations.
She's an on-air, you know,therapist.
I don't know if she's a doc.
She's a doctor, obviously.
So she's probably apsychologist.
Uh, but she doesn't sufferfools.
She doesn't take any shit.
And she tells people exactlyhow she sees it.
Whether she's right or wrong isalways up for debate.
(32:27):
But she doesn't back down andshe doesn't suffer fools.
If you're a long winder like methat goes on and on and on and
she cuts you off and she's like,here, I have very simple
questions.
And if you can't give me theseanswers, our conversation is
over.
Right.
But I have been in the car withyou when we've listened to some
episodes, and I can hear you,you know, on the other side of
(32:52):
the center console with yourthoughts about what she's
saying.
Does she cross into harmfulspeech at times, or is she just
tough loving?
Melissa (33:03):
You know, she has her own views on things, and she
definitely is not always themost politically correct and
challenges people's thoughts ondifferent things.
And the one you're talkingabout, I remember she told a I
(33:23):
will say survivor of sexualabuse that survivor is not a
good term, that you neversurvived if you're still
struggling with aspects of it.
And I wholeheartedly disagreedwith her on that.
As a survivor, I I survivedthat abuse.
And yes, do I still strugglewith aspects of it?
(33:48):
Absolutely, but I'm not stillthere.
And if we say I'm a victim,then that insinuates that that
I'm stuck, that I'm playing thevictim, that I have a victim
mentality that people owe me orI can get away with things.
Whereas when I say that I'm asurvivor, what I mean is I
(34:12):
literally survived what wasimposed on me.
And now I work on thriving.
So I wholeheartedly disagreedwith her.
Evan (34:24):
Yeah.
Melissa (34:25):
And that didn't make her speech harmful.
Evan (34:27):
Okay.
So radical candor and maybeeven disagreement with a with
with a client that may say, Thisis, you know, how I feel about
this situation.
For you as a clinician, can youcan you not affirm that feeling
and say, well, well, listen,have you looked at it from their
perspective?
Melissa (34:46):
Let's talk about abortion for a second.
Let's talk about the clientwho's 17 that comes in and is
pregnant.
Evan (34:52):
Yeah.
Melissa (34:53):
And it doesn't matter what my beliefs are.
I'm gonna talk to her abouthaving the baby and keeping the
baby.
I'm gonna talk to her aboutadoption, and I'm gonna talk to
her about abortion because thoseare her options.
It does not matter how Ipersonally feel about it.
Evan (35:12):
Sure.
Melissa (35:13):
And so one person could come in from a faith base and
say, that's harmful.
You can't talk to her aboutabortion being an option.
Well, is it harmful or is sheexploring her options?
And I don't know where she'sgonna land.
And hopefully I'm still in thepicture to help her deal with
(35:35):
any potential fallout becauseall of them have fallout.
Evan (35:38):
Sure.
Melissa (35:38):
Just in different ways.
Now, if she were to go to afaith-based place, they would
talk to her about having thechild and keeping the child,
having the child and giving thatchild up for adoption.
Evan (35:48):
Yeah.
Melissa (35:49):
And so you see a big difference there.
And if somebody would condemnher and tell her she's an awful
human for making whatever choiceshe makes, that that would be
harmful language.
Evan (36:03):
Well, and you bring up a good point there as well,
because it it it ties into thesecond question that I had for
you about should professionalshave less free speech
protection?
So you have two differentpractices.
You have a broader generalpractice versus a faith-based
practice.
Should should we be regulatingthe faith-based practice in a
(36:25):
different way by saying youcan't engage in some of these
discussions or you must talkabout these extra options?
Melissa (36:32):
Well, I have a question.
So if you're a secularclinician and somebody comes to
you and says, I come from a basea faith base, I use pornography
and sleep with prostitutes, andI need help to figure this out.
And that therapist says, youknow what?
Here's a book.
It's called Ethical Porn forDicks.
(36:53):
It's on Amazon.
You can look it up.
Evan (36:55):
Okay.
Melissa (36:56):
I think you should read this book.
Is that wrong?
Evan (37:00):
I I don't know the answer.
Melissa (37:03):
I do.
I think I think it is, and andthis I've actually I know that
this has happened in our areabecause just like you have
faith-based practices, you havesuper, super not faith-based
secular practices.
Evan (37:20):
Yeah.
Melissa (37:21):
And really our job as clinicians is to understand and
respect where our individualclient is coming from.
So if I have a client thatcomes in and says, I come from a
faith-based, I don't believe inpornography, I'm doing this and
I don't want to be, I am notgonna hand them a book that
talks about how to view porn inan ethical way.
(37:44):
Sure.
This is ludicrous to me.
Sure.
Evan (37:47):
Yeah.
So, and that's I guess wherewhere I'm coming from is should
we allow, you know, faith-basedpractices to do their thing
their way?
Yes.
And secular practices to dothings their way.
And if you as the clientregulate them as a distinction.
Melissa (38:04):
If you as the client don't like it, find a therapist
that you do like that does alignwith your values.
And if if faith is particularlyimportant to me, I'm going to
find a practice and say, I wantsomebody that comes from a faith
base.
Evan (38:20):
It's like having a baker that won't bake your cake for
you.
Go find the one down the roadthat will.
Melissa (38:25):
I'm gonna demand that you come from a faith base
because that's what I want youto do.
No, it doesn't work for theclient to put that on the
clinician.
And it sure as heck doesn'twork for the clinician to put it
on the client.
So, no matter how you look atit, it's one of those things
where everybody just has to findthe person that they click
(38:48):
with.
Evan (38:48):
So, last question for you.
Can the state separate medicalharm from moral disagreement?
So when the state passes thislaw, it's the legislators all
saying, as a as a collectivebody, we believe that you know
conversion therapy is harmful,you know, and and the the
(39:08):
medical professional bodiesbelieve that it's harmful.
There's still some debate onthat, certainly depending on how
you define conversion therapy,right?
If you could define conversiontherapy as, you know, a forced
conversion from your currentthinking to something else that
that you know more aligns withwhere the converter is coming
(39:30):
from or the family wants you togo, versus something that's more
innocuous, like what we've beentalking about in this case,
where you have a faith-basedclinician that is offering a
faith-based perspective tosomeone asking for a faith-based
perspective?
I struggle with that definitionof conversion therapy lining
up.
Melissa (39:47):
Can I ask you a question?
Sure.
Why do we think it's harmful toindividuals under the age of
18?
Evan (39:54):
Uh, it's a great question.
I don't know the answer tothat.
Why would it be any lessharmful to someone over the age
of 18?
Melissa (40:02):
So, what's different about a child versus an adult?
Evan (40:05):
An adult has more autonomy, I suppose, for
individual choice.
I the the age guess me, becausethere are physiological
differences between someoneunder the age of, say, 25 when
brain formation begins to end.
Melissa (40:19):
Oh, look at what you just touched on.
Brain formation.
That's the difference, right?
So if we're saying we can'timpact this child in this way,
right?
Because the child has rightsand the child, you know, doesn't
have enough brain developmentto be able to navigate this, and
(40:41):
we're gonna do harm to theirdevelopment, right?
Then wouldn't we also be doingharm to them and their
development by utilizing medicaland medical interventions that
affirm maybe who they think theyare and stop development.
And so I see this going bothways.
(41:02):
So if we're gonna step in andsay, hey, look, conversion
therapy bad, don't impose on thewill of the child because you
know the child has autonomy.
And by the way, I'm notagreeing or disagreeing with any
of this, right?
I'm just saying it should goboth ways.
Sure.
Then we should put a line inthe sand that says zero.
(41:24):
There's a difference too in howwe look at like
gender-affirming care and whatthat actually is.
But we should say, then, youknow what, we're not doing any
medical interventions because iftheir brain isn't developed
enough, then their brain isn'tdeveloped enough.
Evan (41:40):
But there's a specific carve out in the law that allows
for you to do thegender-affirming portion and to
assist in medical transitions ofpeople under the age of 18.
And again, I go back to thisissue with the age, right?
We keep acting like18-year-olds are adults.
Melissa (41:57):
But now you can't even buy cigarettes until you're 21.
Right.
You can't and haven't ever beenable to buy, well, not ever,
but alcohol at the age is 21.
I don't know what age can youbuy a gun.
Evan (42:08):
I don't know, but I know I gotta carry my 23-year-old,
24-year-old on my insurance foranother year.
Right.
Right.
Because he's on my insurancetill 25.
And I know that there have beennumerous studies that show that
the majority of braindevelopment, or at least the
finalization of the majority ofthe brain development, happens
between the ages of 18 and 25.
Melissa (42:30):
Which again, I wholeheartedly disagree with.
I think our brains are alwaysdeveloping until we hit a peak
somewhere around the age of 60,and then they start to regress.
Evan (42:41):
But and I and I I think that probably you'll find that
the the the science communitygenerally agrees with that
concept that there's furtherdevelopment beyond that, but
they talk about the bulk of theyou know formulation of brain
development happening, you know,in those adolescent years.
Melissa (42:59):
Of probably prefrontal cortex development.
Evan (43:03):
Most likely.
Sure.
So I think if we're going totalk about these laws from that
perspective, we ought to do it.
If you're going to tell me thatyou're doing this because it's
scientifically, this is what webelieve.
Melissa (43:13):
Let's actually follow science.
Evan (43:15):
Let's follow the science and go all the way to 25.
Melissa (43:18):
Yeah.
Evan (43:18):
And but that doesn't suit.
No, it doesn't suit.
It doesn't, it's not it becauseeverybody's mind is wrapped
around this concept of I'm anI'm an adult at 18, right?
Whether or not that's reality.
Melissa (43:30):
And how many 18-year-olds do we really know
that are actually adulting?
Evan (43:35):
You know, it all right.
Let me touch on this realquick.
Side note, tangent for those ofyou that don't want to hear
this, that's okay.
But let's talk about thedifference real quick between
our society and the Amishsociety.
And I only want to do it fromthe perspective of kids, right?
They send their five-year-oldsout with a lunchbox to school to
(43:57):
walk down the road, right?
Miles to school.
Melissa (44:00):
I mean, they're married by 18.
Evan (44:01):
Well, maybe not married anymore, but they have they have
a completely differentperspective on age.
And if you go back in ourhistory and you look at American
history back into the 1800s,the 1700s, kids 12 years old
routinely carried, by the way,guns, shotguns, especially, and
(44:22):
then rifles them and knew how touse them and went out and
hunted for the family out westduring the exchange.
Melissa (44:28):
I mean, by 18, you were married and probably had
already popped out at least onekid, if not two.
Evan (44:33):
Probably had a farmhouse somewhere with several acres of
land.
So our society, for better orfor worse, has gone from a place
where you know 12 to18-year-olds were adolescents in
terms of I'm moving from childto adult, right?
Absolutely.
Now we're lucky if we can getour 18-year-olds out of like the
(44:55):
12-year-old phase.
Melissa (44:56):
You're lucky if they're adulting by 30 these days.
Yeah, yeah.
Evan (45:01):
Failure to launch is a real thing that we need to talk
about in another episode becausewe don't have any more time
today.
Right.
But just wanted to put that ineverybody's mind that this whole
age concept to me is just it'snot rooted in anything other
than maybe tradition.
Melissa (45:17):
Well, and ironically enough, when we look at the
elderly population, we don'tdistinguish things by age.
There's not an age where youlose your driver's license.
There's not an age where you'redetermined to not be sound of
mind to make medical decisions.
Evan (45:33):
Yeah.
Melissa (45:34):
It's based on every unique situation.
So why is it that for childrenwe designate a specific age?
And yet for the elderly, wedon't.
Evan (45:48):
It's a great question.
I think we need to come back tothat on another episode.
Agreed.
Listen, drop us a comment.
Should licensed therapists befree to counsel minors
consistent with their faith, ordoes the state have a duty to
step in?
I think that's a great questionto ask.
I think it would be great ifyou guys, you folks, would
respond to us and let us know.
You can find us on social mediaat the unmentionables.
Melissa (46:12):
And we'd love your controversial comments.
Evan (46:14):
Yes.
Melissa (46:14):
We'd love to talk about them.
Evan (46:16):
We want to talk about them.
Melissa (46:17):
We maybe want to talk with you.
Evan (46:19):
Absolutely.
Come be a guest.
Melissa (46:21):
All right.
Evan (46:21):
Take care.
Melissa (46:22):
Bye.
Welcome back to another episode of the Unmentionables
podcast.
This is Evan, as always, herewith Melissa.
Melissa (01:24):
Good morning.
Evan (01:25):
Good morning, Melissa.
How are you?
Melissa (01:26):
I'm doing good.
I've had my coffee ready to go.
Evan (01:30):
Yeah, I heard you got a hand delivered at in the parking
lot at Starbucks.
Melissa (01:36):
This random guy just showed up at the side of my my
car with coffee and a sandwich.
Evan (01:42):
And knew exactly what you wanted.
I know, right?
It's weird.
It's weird how that happens.
Love it.
So we have a couple of thingsto talk about today, as usual.
We have a backlog for those ofyou that don't know.
Melissa (01:53):
Well, you know, when you go to fun country events,
sometimes we miss a production.
Evan (01:59):
Yeah, yeah.
So we have a backlog of topicsto talk about.
There is one that is, you know,top of mind, important.
It's been mentioned in the newsand some, you know, on some
radio shows and podcastsrecently.
It's a topic out of the stateof Colorado, and it impacts the
mental health therapy space.
(02:20):
And it kind of relates to aprevious episode that we did on
gender ideology.
And this one is uh ColoradoLaw, House Bill 19-1129.
And this law is about what theycall conversion therapy.
And we'll talk a little bitabout the definition of
(02:41):
conversion therapy as we gothrough this.
So I want to give a quicksummary of the law in Colorado,
this House bill in Colorado, andthe case that's surrounding it,
in case some of our listenersmay not be familiar with it.
This is uh Chiles v Salazar.
This is about Kaylee Chiles, alicensed professional counselor
(03:02):
and a Christian counselorspecifically, who runs a
faith-based practice inColorado, and she is challenging
a 2019 law that bans licensedtherapists from providing, you
know, quote unquote conversiontherapy to minors.
She is arguing that the banviolates free speech and free
exercise of religion.
The state says it's aprofessional conduct regulation,
(03:23):
not censorship of speech.
The Supreme Court heard ouroral arguments on October 7th,
and the decision around thiscould reshape how states
regulate speech insideprofessional practice.
But Melissa, I really want tostart with a question for you.
As a therapist, if you'rehelping a minor explore
identity, that's consideredspeech.
(03:44):
But when the state is banningcertain conversations, is that
regulating treatment or thought?
And where's the line betweenprotecting kids from harm and
protecting adults' right toadvise according to their
conscience?
Melissa (03:57):
Sure.
That's a great question.
You know, as a clinician, we'reobviously regulated by the
state licensing body.
And in social work, we have acode of ethics, psychology does
as well.
And they're not exactly thesame.
There are minute differencesthat exist.
(04:18):
But the foundation of this isfirst do no harm.
And when our clients come tous, our personal views and
beliefs shouldn't be playing arole unless that's the type of
organization that you're in.
So if you have a Christiancounseling agency and that's
(04:40):
what they are advertised as, ofcourse, you're gonna expect a
faith-based Christian counselorand all of the worldviews that
go with that.
Evan (04:51):
Sure.
Melissa (04:52):
When we're in a traditional counseling practice,
we recognize that there arepeople that come from all
different places in life.
You have faith-basedclinicians, you have
non-faith-based clinicians, youhave spiritual ones.
And that should never play arole unless a client is
explicitly asking for someonewho comes from one perspective
(05:17):
or another.
And at that point, you know,we're able to say, yes, I align
with that, no, I don't, youknow, how does your religion or
faith or worldview impact thissituation?
So I think it's veryinteresting that they're coming
in now in Colorado and trying tolimit the faith-based
(05:42):
practices.
And there's there doesn't seemto be a recognition of what is
my client asking of me?
And is that what I amproviding?
Yeah.
I don't know if I answered yourquestion.
Evan (05:55):
That's a great perspective.
Melissa (05:56):
Do you think we could talk about maybe the definition
that they're using of conversiontherapy?
And then maybe I can talk alittle bit about what I think it
is.
Evan (06:08):
Sure, sure.
Yeah, so you know, again, thisis the Colorado law.
You guys listening can look itup on your own to see the words
for yourself in the originaltext.
That's House Bill 19-1129concerning prohibiting a mental
health care provider fromengaging in conversion therapy
with a patient under the age of18 years of age.
And what this bill essentiallydoes is it modifies various
(06:32):
sections of Colorado law.
Most bills are like this,right?
So if it's not an originallywritten piece of legislation,
most legislation is amendingsomething or amending sections,
things like this is all sort oflegal, you know, government
inside baseball that wouldconfuse most people.
And, you know, if we went back10 or 15 years before I was a
(06:53):
Tea Party advocate and and andyou know founder, I wouldn't
have known any of this either.
But I my got my uh baptismunder fire by reading the
Obamacare legislation when itcame out and learning how to
read legislation.
So just shortcutting it forthose of you who may not be.
Melissa's eyes are rolling intothe back of her head right now.
Melissa (07:15):
How many pages was that?
Evan (07:17):
Thousands.
I don't have the exact number.
I think it was like 1700something pages.
Melissa (07:21):
And how many politicians actually read the
whole thing?
Evan (07:23):
Well, I can tell you this for certain because I was in
Delaware at the time, MikeCastle did not.
And I know that because we hadhim cornered on a at a
conference table at one pointwith the Tea Party people
sitting around the table, and weall asked him point blank, Did
you read it?
Did you read it?
And he he hemmed and hauled andeventually said, No, that's why
I have staffers.
And I said, So you haven't reada page of this bill.
(07:44):
I've read the entire thing.
We've all sitting around thistable read the entire thing, and
you haven't read any of it, andyou're the one that's gonna
vote on it.
Melissa (07:50):
Right.
Evan (07:50):
And we told him about things that were in the bill,
and he's like, I don't believethat's actually in there.
And I'm like, well, here's thesection page, whatever.
And he goes, Well, I can'tsupport that.
And I was like, but you havealready voted for it.
Melissa (08:02):
I I think it is fascinating how many people that
are supposed to be reading thisstuff are depending on other
people for interpretations.
Evan (08:11):
Well, remember the famous line from Nancy Pelosi about the
Obamacare bill.
We have to pass the bill tofind out what is in it.
Melissa (08:19):
Oh.
Evan (08:20):
So let's talk about this Colorado law that they passed
before I think anybody of anysubstance read it.
Melissa (08:27):
Thought about what was actually in it and how it would
impact practice.
Evan (08:29):
Exactly, exactly.
So you asked how they defineconversion therapy.
And, you know, again, as youread the law, you're going to
see conversion therapy definedseveral times.
It's pretty much the exact samedefinition, just plugged into
different areas.
There are areas of the law thatcover physicians and areas of
the law that covers licensedpractitioners like social
(08:50):
workers and therapists, right?
So they're different areasbecause one deals with social
work and mental health, and onedeals with medical physicians,
right?
Conversion therapy, this isfrom the from the bill.
Conversion therapy means anypractice or treatment by a
licensed physician or therapistspecializing in the practice of
psychiatry that attempts topurport or purports to change an
(09:13):
individual's sexual orientationor gender identity, including
efforts to change behaviors orgender expressions, or to
eliminate or reduce sexual orromantic attraction or feelings
toward individuals of the samesex.
Conversion therapy does notinclude practices or treatments
that provide acceptance,support, and understanding for
(09:33):
the facilitation of anindividual's coping, social
support, and identityexploration and development,
including sexual orientationneutral interventions to prevent
or address unlawful contact orunsafe sexual practices, as long
as the counselor does not seekto change sexual orientation or
gender identity or assistassistance to a person
(09:53):
undergoing gender transition.
There is a lot there.
So it goes on to further definein the statute that
unprofessional conduct, as usedin this article, means engaging
in conversion therapy with apatient who is under 18 years of
age.
They talk about certifiedaddiction counselors, they talk
about you know licensed socialworkers or you know therapists,
(10:16):
they talk about physicians and Iwant to know, right?
Melissa (10:20):
Is it conversion therapy if a client comes to me
and says it's against my beliefsto, you know, feel like I'm a
different gender.
I want you to help me figureout why I feel this way and you
(10:41):
know, help help me not feel thisway anymore.
Evan (10:45):
As the law reads, and this is the crux of the reason why
this lawsuit was brought byKaley Chiles in, you know, filed
in 2019 immediately after thelaw was passed, and it's been
through district court inColorado and the 10th Circuit
Court and is now sitting at theSupreme Court.
But that's the reason why shebrought this case, is because
(11:05):
it's that is the way herpractice is set up.
So she is a certifiedcounselor, a licensed, you know,
clinical social worker.
She has a practice where it isfaith-based and it is very clear
that she is faith-based.
Her clients come to herspecifically because she is
faith-based and she is givingthem the faith faith-based
(11:26):
perspectives on this.
That doesn't mean she's aminister.
She's not a pastor, which bythe way, in the law, there is a
carve-out for the ministry andpastors.
However, those ministry andpastors cannot actually say say
that they have a license inclinical social work, even if
they do, right?
They can't promote that becausethen it becomes professional
(11:49):
conduct versus a religious.
Melissa (11:51):
Sure.
And here's where I really seethe difference.
And I do want to note, she isan LPC, which is a degree in
psychology and very differentthan what we do in social work,
social work being an art andpsychology being a science.
But I think the real contentionhere is if I am first to do no
(12:13):
harm, that means that I'mlooking to my client for what is
it that you feel isn't goingwell for you or right for you
right now?
What changes do you want tomake?
And how can I help you getthere?
Evan (12:31):
Is that a difference without a
distinction?
That's a word, betweenexploration and direction.
Direction seems to me I'mguiding you where I want you to
go.
Where exploration is like, talkto me.
Tell me what you're feeling,and you know, I can help you
navigate the road because it'snot easy, right?
(12:51):
But I'm not going to tell youwhether you're right or wrong.
Is that what basically you'retalking about?
Melissa (12:56):
Social work is a very holistic field.
And we do for the most part,most of us that are are trained
under a social work degree orlicense believe that we're just
there to help somebody else.
We're on that path toparticipate in their journey.
But the journey is theirs todetermine where they want to go.
(13:20):
So if I have a client thatcomes in and says, Hey, I really
want to cheat on my spouse, I'mgonna sit back and say, Okay,
let's explore that.
Let's talk about the differentpossibilities that come from
that.
And that client might say, youknow, I think I'm gonna get this
need met.
This person listens to me andhears me.
(13:44):
And, you know, I think thatthis is this is the right path.
Okay, well, what are some otherpaths that this might take?
What are what are some otherpossibilities?
She might say, Well, you know,my spouse could get mad.
Okay.
And what would happen fromthat?
You know, our job is to ask thequestions, kind of like your
job here.
You ask the questions and Igive you the answers.
(14:07):
And and that's coming fromLancaster County, right?
There used to be conversioncamps where the parent, and you
particularly saw this in thereligious communities, the the
Mennonite, the Amish.
If a child was homosexual, sendthem to conversion camp.
(14:27):
We'll make them be straight.
And I think that was the intentof the law was that we can't
impose something on someone ifthat's not what they desire for
their own life.
We're talking about autonomyhere.
And we see autonomy come out inso, so many places in our
(14:52):
society these days.
We talk about autonomy with ourkids.
You know, children have theautonomy to determine who do I
want to have relationships with?
Evan (15:00):
Yeah.
Melissa (15:01):
What relationships feel good, what relationships don't
feel good.
They have autonomy to makethose decisions, at least they
should.
So it basically told theclinical community we're not
going to allow providers orparents to force their values
onto children.
Evan (15:21):
It's interesting that you bring up Pennsylvania because uh
in addition to Colorado, thereare numerous other states.
I think in total, it's 23states plus DC that have enacted
comprehensive bans restrictinglicensed mental health
professionals from fromperforming conversion therapy on
minors.
And since you brought upPennsylvania, I happen to have
(15:43):
looked up the Pennsylvaniaregulatory landscape around
this.
And there is an existingstatute from 2023 that prohibits
mental health professionals.
This is a quote from fromPennsylvania, an act prohibiting
mental health professionalsfrom engaging in conversion
therapy with an individual under18 years of age.
And it the text statesprohibiting mental health
(16:06):
professionals from engaging inconversion therapy with an
individual under 18 years ofage.
Being lesbian, gay, or bisexualis not a disease, disorder,
illness, deficiency, orshortcoming.
The major professionalassociations of mental health
practitioners have recognizedthis fact for more than 40
years.
Portions of this are still incommittee being legislated or
(16:27):
being worked through.
But in August of 2022, GovernorWolf signed an executive order
directing state agencies toensure that no funds, no state
funds, are used to supportconversion therapy.
So that portions of this arealready sort of de facto
happening, even though theyreally haven't made it all the
way fully through thePennsylvania General Assembly.
Melissa (16:49):
I actually remember when this came out, and I
remember having theseconversations that all revolved
around I can't force my beliefson somebody else.
And parents ought to not beforcing their own beliefs or
(17:10):
choices onto children.
And so that meant a parentcouldn't drag their kid to
therapy and demand that I makesure that they have the same
religious beliefs as the parent.
And it honestly just seemedlike common sense to us because
(17:33):
you can't force anyone to changeat all in any area unless it's
a change that they see aswarranted and want to invest
themselves in that process.
Evan (17:46):
Well, and I yeah, again, you keep bringing up things that
I'm about to discuss.
So I appreciate you being ableto read my mind.
I guess that's what makes you agood therapist.
There, let's talk about thereligious carve out and what
this looks like.
Colorado and most of theseother states, they say that
pastors can still do this.
They can have these conversiontherapy discussions with minors
(18:10):
or adults or whatever, becausethey're outside of the
professional licensing system,but licensed Christian
counselors providing faith-basedtherapy can't.
Is that punishingprofessionalism or is it
protecting religious spaceswhile holding licensed health
providers to the secular medicalstandard?
Melissa (18:29):
So I think this is really interesting actually,
because A, I definitely thinkthat it's it's protecting
religious freedom.
But at least in our area, ifyou look at Christian counseling
agencies, which we have a greatnumber of them in our county,
(18:49):
what you will find is the vastmajority of people who are
employed at these practices, A,the practices do not typically
take insurance, and B, yourclinicians are not actually
licensed.
They don't take insurance, sothey don't have to be licensed.
Evan (19:08):
It's an interesting distinction.
Melissa (19:10):
It is.
So for example, I could have adegree in social work, I could
have an MSW and go work at aChristian counseling agency.
Evan (19:20):
Oh, but you don't have to be licensed by the state board.
Correct.
You you can you still wouldwant to have the credentials
that say I've went through I'vegone through school.
I know what I'm talking about.
I'm not, I'm not Evan sittingdown at the table and saying,
tell me about your feelings.
Melissa (19:35):
Well, and the reality is, yeah, do you learn some
stuff in a master's program thatmight help in a therapy room?
Sure.
But it is truly our licensethat says it says we passed a
test on it.
So it means you're very good atanswering multiple choice
questions.
And you know what is the valuein that?
(19:58):
Uh honestly, I'm not reallysure on the test side of it, but
from a licensing side, itreally does hold licensed
clinicians to a higher standard.
And it says if you don't followthese ethical, which are mostly
basic common sense ethicalpractices, then there's going to
(20:21):
be some kind of disciplinarysomething that happens.
Where people over in the faith,the the Christian counseling
side, if they are not upheld tothat licensing standard, there
is nobody to report them to, toreport misconduct.
There, there's no way to comeback and say, you hurt me in
(20:44):
this.
And they can absolutely imposetheir own will and values onto
the people they see.
And that is something thatpeople need to know walking in
there.
Evan (20:56):
Well, and I think we we should also mention that this is
a when we talk about Christiancounseling, we shouldn't just
put it in the perspective ofChristians, right?
There are many faiths outthere.
Islam is one, for example, thatthat harshly judges
homosexuality and sexualdeviance in a lot of ways.
And there are specific Islamiccenters that have their own
(21:21):
Islamic faith-based counselorsas well, typically tied to your
mosques or tied to your Islamiccenters, that would also be
affected by this as well, right?
This is this is any kind offaith-based test that goes
against the general idea thatthe individual is allowed to
make their own decision on theirsexuality.
Melissa (21:40):
Here's the problem, though, right?
Is we can't confuse the termChristian counselor and
faith-based practitioner.
Evan (21:48):
Right.
Melissa (21:48):
They are two separate things.
And a Christian counselor uhisn't even a real thing because
you're either there's a hugedifference.
This actually just came up inour practice recently.
There is a huge differencebetween spiritual guidance and
(22:10):
mental health counseling.
Evan (22:12):
Right.
I would consider a Christiancounselor to be an elder at
church, it could be, you know, achurch leader of some kind, it
could be a pastor, it could be ayouth pastor.
There's lots of ways to talkabout what Christian counselor
quote unquote refers to.
Yes, yeah, lay.
But from the perspective ofwhat's in the book.
Melissa (22:34):
Correct.
So, you know, and I don't meanthe DSM 5.
No, personally, right?
I am a faith-basedpractitioner, which means as a
clinical social worker, Ideeply, deeply value and respect
that you have your own beliefsand morals that guide you.
(23:00):
And mine are irrelevant in thepractice that I do unless you
specifically want to know that Icome from the same foundational
worldview as you do, in whichcase we come at things from the
same direction.
(23:20):
But if you want to explore yourfaith and your relationship
with God, I'm gonna say, I thinkyou need to find a pastor or
spiritual mentor to go talk to.
I'm here to deal with themental health side, the anxiety,
the depression.
We actually can't billinsurance if it's not related to
(23:41):
a DSM disorder.
Evan (23:43):
Oh wow.
Yep.
So, you know, if a if aChristian teen asks to align
with their beliefs, should thatrequest be then off limits for a
licensed counselor?
Or if a teen, another teenwants affirmation, should that
be legally protected speech, butthe opposite viewpoint banned?
Melissa (24:00):
Break that down for me.
Evan (24:01):
So if you have if you have two patients, two, you know,
folks who come in, and one ofthem asks to align with their
beliefs.
So they come into you and theysay, Look, I'm a Christian, I am
homosexual, I'm attracted tomen, and you know, I know that
this doesn't line up with mybeliefs.
(24:22):
Can you help me understand andalign my feelings and the the
you know uh internals of whatI'm feeling with my faith?
Versus you have anotherteenager that comes in and says,
I was born a girl, but I I Ifeel like I'm a boy.
I want you to, you know, affirmthat and and accept me for who
(24:47):
I believe that I am.
Melissa (24:48):
I would say, Why are you here then?
To the second one.
Because like, what are weworking on?
Evan (24:55):
Well, maybe they feel like people around them aren't
affirming them, and that is youknow, uh harming their mental
health, and they they wantsomebody to tell them that it's
okay to be who they want to beversus maybe who they already
are.
Melissa (25:10):
So absolutely that's a clinical concept of how do I
separate myself and what Ibelieve from what others think I
should be.
We can absolutely sit down andtalk through that and figure out
how to help you stand in yourown identity instead of wavering
(25:30):
to the identity that othersbelieve you should be.
Absolutely.
And for the first person, wenavigate that by okay, let's
explore that together.
Let's explore those feelingsand where they come from.
And with anybody who comes in,if you're just going to therapy
for somebody to tell you whatyou want to hear, that's awful.
(25:52):
I don't know who else to putit.
Because any clinician who justsits there and is a yes person
and agrees with everything yousay, and that's awful therapy.
Why in the world would you goto therapy unless you have a
serious personality disorder?
Just to hear your awesome,great job.
Evan (26:15):
Yeah.
Melissa (26:15):
I mean, the average person wants to engage in
therapy because there'ssomething they want to change.
They can't figure it out, andthey need help, somebody to
maybe ask the right questions ortake them on a path of many
paths of exploring.
What I've found is there's somany providers.
(26:38):
It's just talk therapy.
Evan (26:41):
Yeah.
Melissa (26:41):
Let's just talk.
Evan (26:42):
Right.
Melissa (26:43):
And they don't know or just aren't proficient enough.
I don't know what it is.
They don't dig to the roots.
Evan (26:52):
We've talked about that many times already, and and many
times more.
Root causes seem to be anabstract concept for a lot of
people, and they don't reallyunderstand it.
And in in the case of KaleyChiles, who's she's a practicing
Christian, she contends thatalthough she doesn't try to
convert her client, she does tryto help them with objectives
(27:12):
that may include seeking toreduce or eliminate unwanted
sexual attractions or becomingmore comfortable with their
bodies.
This sounds to me in the waythat it's framed, like when she
sits down with her patient, withher client, she sits down with
them and she says, What do youwant to achieve?
What are your goals?
What are your objectives thatyou want to get out of this?
(27:33):
Sure.
And they may say to her, Look,I don't, I know my value set
says X, and I'm way over heredoing Z, and I don't want that.
I want to get back to my valueset.
How do I do that?
This sounds like a law thatwould bar her from doing that.
Melissa (27:50):
Well, and let's be real.
No client is gonna seek her outif they want to be affirmed in
things that they know violatethe Christian faith.
Evan (27:59):
Right.
Right.
And right now there's legalprecedent and principle around
this from both directions.
So there's laws that havecompelled certain speech to be
available by crisis pregnancycenters.
Melissa (28:13):
Okay.
Evan (28:14):
There's also laws that have upheld the conversion
therapy ban.
Melissa (28:19):
Right.
Evan (28:20):
So this there it's sort of a split right now in the
federal judiciary, which is whythis is now at the Supreme
Court.
And this could potentiallyresolve that split.
And I think where it becomesextremely important, especially
in your field, is this canredefine how far states can go
in telling doctors, therapists,and even teachers what they can
(28:42):
and can't say.
Melissa (28:43):
Right.
Well, and I think that's theinteresting piece of this,
right?
Is what can government controlor regulate?
Well, government can controland regulate the people that it
licenses as clinicians, but thegovernment can't regulate
religion.
Evan (28:57):
And it can't regulate speech.
Just did an equalizer episodeon this the other day, and and
how, you know, how far thegovernment does try to push into
that realm for various reasons,some of them quite good.
Things like hate speech and allof that is is extremely
important to consider when wetalk about speech and what's
(29:18):
good and what's bad.
But, you know, government,thanks to the First Amendment,
really doesn't have the right topolice or limit speech.
The the policing around speechis done by us as individuals, as
companies, as organizations.
We can choose to make peoplepariahs, we can choose to make
people who have aberrant speechnot part of our organization,
(29:42):
but but the government can'tenforce those regulations on
them, at least at the federallevel.
Melissa (29:47):
You know, I I find an interesting correlation here,
right?
Because super controversialagain, right?
The desire to restrict accessto guns.
And we recognize that we canput all the laws we want in
place, and it is not going toprevent the criminals from
(30:08):
obtaining weapons.
Evan (30:10):
Bad actor is gonna act bad.
Melissa (30:12):
Correct.
Well, it's no different intherapy.
Evan (30:15):
Yeah.
Melissa (30:15):
A bad actor is gonna act bad, and they might give up
their license and practicewithout one and not take
insurance.
And that's that's one of thosebig parts here, I think, is that
while its intention is to stopharm to children, those of us
with the license are typicallynot the ones doing it.
(30:36):
Right.
Because we have this code ofethics that says first do no
harm.
It's the people we're now beingregulated here on stuff that's
common sense, and the peoplethat aren't operating under
those same standards are theones that are still able to do
(30:56):
it.
Evan (30:57):
Absolutely.
I want to kind of bring allthis together.
Couple of few questions foryou.
What counts as harmful speechin therapy?
Melissa (31:06):
Oh my goodness.
Can we define harmful speech?
Evan (31:09):
Uh I'm looking to you as the therapist with the ethics
and the moral code to tell mewhat you would consider.
Consider harmful speech to betherapy.
Melissa (31:19):
Because I don't think there's anything in our code of
ethics that says no harmfulspeech, right?
Evan (31:24):
Well, I I mean I would imagine that things that would
come into this realm would bethings I wouldn't even imagine
saying.
Things you would never say.
Go kill yourself.
Melissa (31:33):
Oh my gosh.
That would be a harm.
Yes, that would be harmful.
Evan (31:36):
Right.
Melissa (31:36):
Yes.
Evan (31:37):
You know, you're you're not worthy of love.
That's those kinds of negative.
Melissa (31:43):
So counterproductive.
Evan (31:44):
Sure.
It's a it's the antithesis, Ithink, of what your yes, therapy
for sure, but also so let wellwell, let's bring this, let's
bring this back to somethingsome somebody that you people
may know.
Let's talk about Dr.
Laura.
Yes.
Dr.
Laura is extremely candid.
She practices radicaltransparency.
She doesn't put up with abunch.
(32:05):
She's, by the way, if you don'tknow, she's on Sirius XM and a
bunch of radio stations.
She's an on-air, you know,therapist.
I don't know if she's a doc.
She's a doctor, obviously.
So she's probably apsychologist.
Uh, but she doesn't sufferfools.
She doesn't take any shit.
And she tells people exactlyhow she sees it.
Whether she's right or wrong isalways up for debate.
(32:27):
But she doesn't back down andshe doesn't suffer fools.
If you're a long winder like methat goes on and on and on and
she cuts you off and she's like,here, I have very simple
questions.
And if you can't give me theseanswers, our conversation is
over.
Right.
But I have been in the car withyou when we've listened to some
episodes, and I can hear you,you know, on the other side of
(32:52):
the center console with yourthoughts about what she's
saying.
Does she cross into harmfulspeech at times, or is she just
tough loving?
Melissa (33:03):
You know, she has her own views on things, and she
definitely is not always themost politically correct and
challenges people's thoughts ondifferent things.
And the one you're talkingabout, I remember she told a I
(33:23):
will say survivor of sexualabuse that survivor is not a
good term, that you neversurvived if you're still
struggling with aspects of it.
And I wholeheartedly disagreedwith her on that.
As a survivor, I I survivedthat abuse.
And yes, do I still strugglewith aspects of it?
(33:48):
Absolutely, but I'm not stillthere.
And if we say I'm a victim,then that insinuates that that
I'm stuck, that I'm playing thevictim, that I have a victim
mentality that people owe me orI can get away with things.
Whereas when I say that I'm asurvivor, what I mean is I
(34:12):
literally survived what wasimposed on me.
And now I work on thriving.
So I wholeheartedly disagreedwith her.
Evan (34:24):
Yeah.
Melissa (34:25):
And that didn't make her speech harmful.
Evan (34:27):
Okay.
So radical candor and maybeeven disagreement with a with
with a client that may say, Thisis, you know, how I feel about
this situation.
For you as a clinician, can youcan you not affirm that feeling
and say, well, well, listen,have you looked at it from their
perspective?
Melissa (34:46):
Let's talk about abortion for a second.
Let's talk about the clientwho's 17 that comes in and is
pregnant.
Evan (34:52):
Yeah.
Melissa (34:53):
And it doesn't matter what my beliefs are.
I'm gonna talk to her abouthaving the baby and keeping the
baby.
I'm gonna talk to her aboutadoption, and I'm gonna talk to
her about abortion because thoseare her options.
It does not matter how Ipersonally feel about it.
Evan (35:12):
Sure.
Melissa (35:13):
And so one person could come in from a faith base and
say, that's harmful.
You can't talk to her aboutabortion being an option.
Well, is it harmful or is sheexploring her options?
And I don't know where she'sgonna land.
And hopefully I'm still in thepicture to help her deal with
(35:35):
any potential fallout becauseall of them have fallout.
Evan (35:38):
Sure.
Melissa (35:38):
Just in different ways.
Now, if she were to go to afaith-based place, they would
talk to her about having thechild and keeping the child,
having the child and giving thatchild up for adoption.
Evan (35:48):
Yeah.
Melissa (35:49):
And so you see a big difference there.
And if somebody would condemnher and tell her she's an awful
human for making whatever choiceshe makes, that that would be
harmful language.
Evan (36:03):
Well, and you bring up a good point there as well,
because it it it ties into thesecond question that I had for
you about should professionalshave less free speech
protection?
So you have two differentpractices.
You have a broader generalpractice versus a faith-based
practice.
Should should we be regulatingthe faith-based practice in a
(36:25):
different way by saying youcan't engage in some of these
discussions or you must talkabout these extra options?
Melissa (36:32):
Well, I have a question.
So if you're a secularclinician and somebody comes to
you and says, I come from a basea faith base, I use pornography
and sleep with prostitutes, andI need help to figure this out.
And that therapist says, youknow what?
Here's a book.
It's called Ethical Porn forDicks.
(36:53):
It's on Amazon.
You can look it up.
Evan (36:55):
Okay.
Melissa (36:56):
I think you should read this book.
Is that wrong?
Evan (37:00):
I I don't know the answer.
Melissa (37:03):
I do.
I think I think it is, and andthis I've actually I know that
this has happened in our areabecause just like you have
faith-based practices, you havesuper, super not faith-based
secular practices.
Evan (37:20):
Yeah.
Melissa (37:21):
And really our job as clinicians is to understand and
respect where our individualclient is coming from.
So if I have a client thatcomes in and says, I come from a
faith-based, I don't believe inpornography, I'm doing this and
I don't want to be, I am notgonna hand them a book that
talks about how to view porn inan ethical way.
(37:44):
Sure.
This is ludicrous to me.
Sure.
Evan (37:47):
Yeah.
So, and that's I guess wherewhere I'm coming from is should
we allow, you know, faith-basedpractices to do their thing
their way?
Yes.
And secular practices to dothings their way.
And if you as the clientregulate them as a distinction.
Melissa (38:04):
If you as the client don't like it, find a therapist
that you do like that does alignwith your values.
And if if faith is particularlyimportant to me, I'm going to
find a practice and say, I wantsomebody that comes from a faith
base.
Evan (38:20):
It's like having a baker that won't bake your cake for
you.
Go find the one down the roadthat will.
Melissa (38:25):
I'm gonna demand that you come from a faith base
because that's what I want youto do.
No, it doesn't work for theclient to put that on the
clinician.
And it sure as heck doesn'twork for the clinician to put it
on the client.
So, no matter how you look atit, it's one of those things
where everybody just has to findthe person that they click
(38:48):
with.
Evan (38:48):
So, last question for you.
Can the state separate medicalharm from moral disagreement?
So when the state passes thislaw, it's the legislators all
saying, as a as a collectivebody, we believe that you know
conversion therapy is harmful,you know, and and the the
(39:08):
medical professional bodiesbelieve that it's harmful.
There's still some debate onthat, certainly depending on how
you define conversion therapy,right?
If you could define conversiontherapy as, you know, a forced
conversion from your currentthinking to something else that
that you know more aligns withwhere the converter is coming
(39:30):
from or the family wants you togo, versus something that's more
innocuous, like what we've beentalking about in this case,
where you have a faith-basedclinician that is offering a
faith-based perspective tosomeone asking for a faith-based
perspective?
I struggle with that definitionof conversion therapy lining
up.
Melissa (39:47):
Can I ask you a question?
Sure.
Why do we think it's harmful toindividuals under the age of
18?
Evan (39:54):
Uh, it's a great question.
I don't know the answer tothat.
Why would it be any lessharmful to someone over the age
of 18?
Melissa (40:02):
So, what's different about a child versus an adult?
Evan (40:05):
An adult has more autonomy, I suppose, for
individual choice.
I the the age guess me, becausethere are physiological
differences between someoneunder the age of, say, 25 when
brain formation begins to end.
Melissa (40:19):
Oh, look at what you just touched on.
Brain formation.
That's the difference, right?
So if we're saying we can'timpact this child in this way,
right?
Because the child has rightsand the child, you know, doesn't
have enough brain developmentto be able to navigate this, and
(40:41):
we're gonna do harm to theirdevelopment, right?
Then wouldn't we also be doingharm to them and their
development by utilizing medicaland medical interventions that
affirm maybe who they think theyare and stop development.
And so I see this going bothways.
(41:02):
So if we're gonna step in andsay, hey, look, conversion
therapy bad, don't impose on thewill of the child because you
know the child has autonomy.
And by the way, I'm notagreeing or disagreeing with any
of this, right?
I'm just saying it should goboth ways.
Sure.
Then we should put a line inthe sand that says zero.
(41:24):
There's a difference too in howwe look at like
gender-affirming care and whatthat actually is.
But we should say, then, youknow what, we're not doing any
medical interventions because iftheir brain isn't developed
enough, then their brain isn'tdeveloped enough.
Evan (41:40):
But there's a specific carve out in the law that allows
for you to do thegender-affirming portion and to
assist in medical transitions ofpeople under the age of 18.
And again, I go back to thisissue with the age, right?
We keep acting like18-year-olds are adults.
Melissa (41:57):
But now you can't even buy cigarettes until you're 21.
Right.
You can't and haven't ever beenable to buy, well, not ever,
but alcohol at the age is 21.
I don't know what age can youbuy a gun.
Evan (42:08):
I don't know, but I know I gotta carry my 23-year-old,
24-year-old on my insurance foranother year.
Right.
Right.
Because he's on my insurancetill 25.
And I know that there have beennumerous studies that show that
the majority of braindevelopment, or at least the
finalization of the majority ofthe brain development, happens
between the ages of 18 and 25.
Melissa (42:30):
Which again, I wholeheartedly disagree with.
I think our brains are alwaysdeveloping until we hit a peak
somewhere around the age of 60,and then they start to regress.
Evan (42:41):
But and I and I I think that probably you'll find that
the the the science communitygenerally agrees with that
concept that there's furtherdevelopment beyond that, but
they talk about the bulk of theyou know formulation of brain
development happening, you know,in those adolescent years.
Melissa (42:59):
Of probably prefrontal cortex development.
Evan (43:03):
Most likely.
Sure.
So I think if we're going totalk about these laws from that
perspective, we ought to do it.
If you're going to tell me thatyou're doing this because it's
scientifically, this is what webelieve.
Melissa (43:13):
Let's actually follow science.
Evan (43:15):
Let's follow the science and go all the way to 25.
Melissa (43:18):
Yeah.
Evan (43:18):
And but that doesn't suit.
No, it doesn't suit.
It doesn't, it's not it becauseeverybody's mind is wrapped
around this concept of I'm anI'm an adult at 18, right?
Whether or not that's reality.
Melissa (43:30):
And how many 18-year-olds do we really know
that are actually adulting?
Evan (43:35):
You know, it all right.
Let me touch on this realquick.
Side note, tangent for those ofyou that don't want to hear
this, that's okay.
But let's talk about thedifference real quick between
our society and the Amishsociety.
And I only want to do it fromthe perspective of kids, right?
They send their five-year-oldsout with a lunchbox to school to
(43:57):
walk down the road, right?
Miles to school.
Melissa (44:00):
I mean, they're married by 18.
Evan (44:01):
Well, maybe not married anymore, but they have they have
a completely differentperspective on age.
And if you go back in ourhistory and you look at American
history back into the 1800s,the 1700s, kids 12 years old
routinely carried, by the way,guns, shotguns, especially, and
(44:22):
then rifles them and knew how touse them and went out and
hunted for the family out westduring the exchange.
Melissa (44:28):
I mean, by 18, you were married and probably had
already popped out at least onekid, if not two.
Evan (44:33):
Probably had a farmhouse somewhere with several acres of
land.
So our society, for better orfor worse, has gone from a place
where you know 12 to18-year-olds were adolescents in
terms of I'm moving from childto adult, right?
Absolutely.
Now we're lucky if we can getour 18-year-olds out of like the
(44:55):
12-year-old phase.
Melissa (44:56):
You're lucky if they're adulting by 30 these days.
Yeah, yeah.
Evan (45:01):
Failure to launch is a real thing that we need to talk
about in another episode becausewe don't have any more time
today.
Right.
But just wanted to put that ineverybody's mind that this whole
age concept to me is just it'snot rooted in anything other
than maybe tradition.
Melissa (45:17):
Well, and ironically enough, when we look at the
elderly population, we don'tdistinguish things by age.
There's not an age where youlose your driver's license.
There's not an age where you'redetermined to not be sound of
mind to make medical decisions.
Evan (45:33):
Yeah.
Melissa (45:34):
It's based on every unique situation.
So why is it that for childrenwe designate a specific age?
And yet for the elderly, wedon't.
Evan (45:48):
It's a great question.
I think we need to come back tothat on another episode.
Agreed.
Listen, drop us a comment.
Should licensed therapists befree to counsel minors
consistent with their faith, ordoes the state have a duty to
step in?
I think that's a great questionto ask.
I think it would be great ifyou guys, you folks, would
respond to us and let us know.
You can find us on social mediaat the unmentionables.
Melissa (46:12):
And we'd love your controversial comments.
Evan (46:14):
Yes.
Melissa (46:14):
We'd love to talk about them.
Evan (46:16):
We want to talk about them.
Melissa (46:17):
We maybe want to talk with you.
Evan (46:19):
Absolutely.
Come be a guest.
Melissa (46:21):
All right.
Evan (46:21):
Take care.
Melissa (46:22):
Bye.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang
Ding dong! Join your culture consultants, Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang, on an unforgettable journey into the beating heart of CULTURE. Alongside sizzling special guests, they GET INTO the hottest pop-culture moments of the day and the formative cultural experiences that turned them into Culturistas. Produced by the Big Money Players Network and iHeartRadio.
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.