September 14, 2025 • 44 mins
The brutal assassination of Charlie Kirk has forced America to confront an uncomfortable reality: our societal disconnect has deadly consequences. Kirk, who believed passionately that "when people stop talking, really bad stuff starts," was murdered by someone who embodied the very isolation and detachment from reality that Kirk sought to combat.
What drives people to such extreme violence? As we explore in this episode, the root causes often lie in disassociation, dehumanization, and desperate isolation. The killer, so immersed in internet culture that he inscribed memes on bullet casings, represents a growing segment of society that has retreated from human connection into digital echo chambers where the most extreme views are normalized and amplified.
This pattern of disconnection extends beyond political violence. We examine the shocking case of Ukrainian refugee Iryna Zarutska, whose brutal murder on a Charlotte train was witnessed by multiple passengers who chose to look away rather than help. This bystander effect reveals how thoroughly we've lost our sense of shared humanity and responsibility to one another.
The path forward requires breaking cycles of isolation and returning to genuine dialogue. America was founded on liberty and the free exchange of ideas – values that demand we engage with those who think differently. As one host poignantly observes, "Hurt people don't always hurt people. Sometimes hurt people can choose to help heal people." In response to those who would silence through violence, we must not retreat further into our tribal corners but instead speak more loudly about our shared values and humanity. Listen now and join the conversation about how we reconnect in an increasingly disconnected world.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Evan (00:00):
Welcome back everybody.
Another episode of theUnmentionables.
As always, I'm Evan.
I'm here with Melissa.
Melissa (00:07):
I'm here.
Evan (00:09):
It's a couple days after a pretty devastating time in our
country for many who both agreedand disagreed with Charlie Kirk
, who was killed the other dayby a mentally unstable left-wing
lunatic propelled byanti-fascist ideas, desensitized
by video games and detachedfrom reality.
(00:30):
I, like many in theconservative political movement
around the Tea Party, years,came into contact, met Charlie a
couple times when he was ateenager, in his very early 20s,
when he was just a kid.
He had an idea, he had a planand a passion and he got a lot
of people to buy into that ideaand ultimately I followed his
(00:53):
career and he built one of themost incredible outreach
organizations ever conceived.
He reached a portion of theelectorate and a portion of the
population that the conservativeconcepts hadn't reached in many
decades.
He was a guy whose mission wasto engage people in dialogue,
and one of I think the quotesthat stands out to me the most
(01:16):
from his life is, he said whenpeople stop talking, really bad
stuff starts.
When marriages stop talking,divorce happens.
When civilizations stop talking, civil war ensues.
When you stop having a humanconnection with someone that you
disagree with, it becomes a loteasier to want to commit
violence against that group.
(01:37):
This is a guy who invited thosepeople who vehemently disagreed
with him to be the first ones atthe microphone.
He wanted them to share theirideas and be exposed to his, and
this is the same reason that westarted this podcast.
Our goal on the Unmentionableis to talk about things that
we're not supposed to, becausewe believe truly that it's
(01:59):
darkness that creates fear, fearthat creates hate and hate that
creates suffering.
He was killed by a guy wholiterally lived his life on the
internet, and we know thisbecause of some of the things
that are coming out about him.
I'm not even going to talkabout the guy's name, but the
guy who killed him was sodependent on the internet and
(02:20):
the isolation that comes withthe internet that he literally
wrote internet memes on thecasings of the internet, that he
literally wrote internet memeson the casings of the bullets
that he was prepared to fire.
One of them was references tofurries and support for the
furry movement.
For those of you that don'tknow, furries are adults who
think they're animals.
Melissa (02:39):
And children.
Evan (02:40):
There's children that are getting involved in this as well
.
Yeah, it's a wild culture.
Another one said, hey, fascistcatch.
And then it was followed by acheat code for a video game that
drops a big, huge bomb on anarea.
Another one said, oh, bellaCiao, bella Ciao, bella Ciao,
ciao Ciao, which is an oldItalian anti-fascist song from
(03:01):
World War II.
And the fourth one said if youread this, you are gay L-M-A-O,
which is laughing my ass off.
To give kind of a sense of whereall those things come from.
Every one of those is areference to some kind of alt
lifestyle or anti-fascistleft-wing ideology and that
(03:23):
lifestyle, those ideologies onthe left, tend to press people
into an online society.
They tend to press people intoisolation.
They pit groups one againstanother.
You think about things again.
The anti-fascists are one.
Bl BLM is another, that ittakes something about a group of
(03:47):
people, finds the differencesfrom other groups and then says
if they're not like you in thisway, they're evil.
Many people out there areshocked and they're surprised by
this shooting, but I'm reallyneither one of these things.
This was inevitable.
It was foreseeable.
It's a consequence of usconstantly seeking to treat the
symptoms of our problems and notthe root cause.
(04:10):
I want to talk about rootcauses and the root cause in
this case and I think in a lotof cases of violence, is rooted
in disassociation, in detachmentfrom reality and in desperation
.
So, in the spirit of theunmentionables, where I ask the
questions and you get to do theanswers, melissa, what drives
people to isolate and to lean sofar into this disassociative
(04:34):
kind of thinking?
Melissa (04:35):
Well, you know I do trauma, so my go-to answer on
this is trauma.
We don't escape reality andisolate from other humans.
It's not how we were designed.
We were designed to live and bein communities with each other.
(04:56):
And I think you really you hitthe nail on the head when you
said it's disassociation.
It's also dehumanization, whenone person can take life or talk
about the loss of a life, andthis you know.
I think people should know thatwe were coming into this week
(05:17):
wanting to talk about theUkrainian refugee.
Evan (05:22):
Irina, irina Zvortka.
Melissa (05:29):
Ukrainian refugee, irina Irina Zvortka, that was
brutally stabbed on that trainin Charlotte while people around
her either walked away orlooked and then looked away or
just had no idea it was going on.
And I think this concept oflife hits me particularly this
week.
My dad passed away on Tuesdaynight and it doesn't matter what
(05:52):
kind of relationship I did ordidn't have with him, it's still
the loss of a life.
And I hadn't, I hadn't talkedto my dad in about five years
and there's a lot around that,and still we can look at that
and say a life is gone.
And this dehumanization ofpeople, the name-calling, the
(06:15):
rhetoric around the evilness ofcertain people because they have
beliefs that are different thanyours, it really is people who
are no longer recognizing thatthey're amidst other humans.
We all live and breathe, webleed the same color blood.
(06:36):
These differences, thisdivisiveness, it causes more
trauma, it causes desperation,it causes people, especially
with these video games.
Right, if you're shootingpeople up on a video game day in
and day out and not seeing theconsequences of that especially?
I know nothing about thisindividual.
(06:58):
However, in a profiling way, Icould tell you from an emotional
standpoint he was veryemotionally stunted Because by
the age of 22,.
You understand object permanence.
You understand that when youtake life, that life is gone.
(07:21):
That concept is something thatwe develop and come to
understand.
So you look at this and whensomebody exposes themselves to
that environment day in and dayout, like I said, it dehumanizes
people.
It gives you, just likeanything else.
If I tell myself that the grassis blue and the sky is green,
(07:43):
for long enough, I'm going tobelieve that the grass is blue
and the sky is green.
For long enough, I'm going tobelieve that the sky is green
and the grass is blue.
Evan (07:50):
And when people who have that sort of desensitization and
dehumanization, desensitization, desensitization to violence
and dehumanization of humanityand individuals as people and
they've isolated themselveswithin their own echo chamber,
when you start to use hot-buttonwords that trigger those
(08:13):
individuals calling someoneHitler, fascist, a threat to
democracy, all of these kinds ofthings does it trigger a fear
response inside of the brain ofsomeone like that, where they
feel like they are sent intosort of a fight or flight and
they need to do something andthey need to stop all of this
(08:33):
and maybe their delusions ofgrandeur take over and any kind
of narcissistic complex thatthey might have is activated and
triggered.
Is that kind of how that works?
Melissa (08:45):
Well, sure, think about a video game.
What happens when you killpeople in a video game?
Evan (08:49):
Well, you continue on with the game.
Melissa (08:52):
Don't you earn points or?
Evan (08:54):
prizes yes, you're rewarded.
You're right, you're rewarded.
Melissa (08:57):
And we live in a reward-based society.
We go to work because we getmoney.
We call that a reward,sometimes we call it a bribe.
But how many people canactually sit back and say
they're doing what they love andit wouldn't matter if they got
paid or not?
I mean, I can say that, but Idon't think there's very many
that can.
So when you are rewarded forthese maladaptive behaviors and
(09:24):
people who are enmeshed in videogames in that way, it's a
coping skill.
Outside is uncomfortable, butthis world is my new reality and
really what we're seeing is thenervous system and you brought
up fight or flight.
But what these video games dois they put people into the
dorsal part of their nervoussystem.
(09:45):
Have you ever seen somebodyplaying video games that almost
looks comatose?
Evan (09:50):
Yeah, yeah, sometimes our own kids right.
Melissa (09:52):
Right, but that's why we limit them.
That's why we limit them.
Staring, you might see a littlebit of drool sneaking down.
It's a blank look, because theymay as well be in a turtle
shell.
And when we access that dorsalpart of our nervous system it is
like a turtle shell, becausethe outside world is so unsafe,
(10:17):
there is imminent risk of death,and we've got to tuck inside
and imagine our own realitywhere all that stuff isn't
happening.
And that is this level ofisolation of video game use.
We can add in drug use, alcoholuse, using sex.
(10:40):
In that way I'm thinkingparticularly about the epidemic
of pornography use, prostitution, massage parlors, all of it,
even exercise shopping.
If they're taken to that degree, it's an escape.
Evan (10:58):
I mean, what role does the media play in this as well?
As you know again, sort ofputting yourself in that echo
chamber, when you have not justpolitical figures but every news
channel that you turn on forthe most part, you get a steady
stream of these people thatthink this way are fascists.
They hate you, they want tomurder you, they want to kill
(11:20):
you, they don't care about yourlife, they don't care what you
think, they want to take thethings you have away from you.
And it's in all kinds of media.
It's not just the news, it's intelevision shows, it's in
movies, it's embedded into videogames, social media, social
media.
Melissa (11:40):
That is what triggers fight or flight and propaganda.
Right, but the term I used wasgang mentality.
What's the one that you hadused earlier?
Group?
Evan (11:52):
Group think.
Melissa (11:52):
Group think, and that is what this is is.
I am going to think like thosearound me, because it's a sense
of belonging, it's a sense ofcommunity in a lot of ways, and
so I will align how I think tohelp me be part of this group
where I feel like I fit in.
(12:13):
And when ideas are introducedand you go against the fray,
well then I'm losing my familyand that's scary for people,
scary to lose family.
We don't just walk away andrestart because it's fun.
Evan (12:26):
Yeah, I want to go.
You brought up Irina Zarytska.
For those who may be unaware,just a little bit of a
background on this.
This was last month inCharlotte, north Carolina.
Irina was a 23-year-oldUkrainian refugee who fled Kiev
from the Russian invasion withher family.
(12:47):
Her father is still in Ukraine,wasn't even able to come to her
funeral because he'sconscripted into the armed
forces.
He's a fighting age, so he'sbusy doing his job.
She had a degree in art andrestoration.
She was studying English.
She wanted to be a veterinaryassistant.
She was all the best things ofto be a veterinary assistant.
She was all the best things ofimmigration that you could think
of.
She was killed by a 34-year-oldcareer criminal, homeless man.
(13:11):
14 separate convictions since2007,.
Felonies including larceny,armed robbery, breaking and
entering Multiple, multipletimes this guy has been in a
courtroom.
He served five years, startingin 2015 for armed robbery,
possession of stolen goods,resisting arrest.
Immediately after his releasewhich, by the way, was a year
(13:36):
early, he was arrested forassault.
Then he was arrested separatelyfor communicating threats and
misusing 911.
All of this happened prior tothe murder on a train car with
five other people right next tohim.
He was diagnosed withschizophrenia, delusional
behavior, claims of mind control.
And after he pulled out a knifeit was a knife, by the way, not
(13:59):
a gun.
But once he pulled out theknife and slit this girl's
throat who was sitting in frontof him minding her own business,
he reportedly said I got thatwhite girl before leaving the
train car at the next stop.
And I want to talk about thisnot from necessarily a view into
the mind of the killer, becauseI think we can all agree he's a
mentally disturbed individualand there can be a lot of, you
(14:22):
know, medical diagnoses of whysomeone acts the way they act
when they're in that kind of asituation.
But it's pretty clear there'sdisturbed mentality there.
But I want to look at it fromthe perspective of the others.
On the train and you broughtthis up earlier there was a
woman sitting across the aislefrom the murdered girl.
She looks to her left, she seeswhat happens and then she turns
(14:46):
her head and she activelyignores it until the killer
leaves the train and then shegets up and moves away.
There is a man behind thatwoman who sees the crime happen,
stands up from his seat, takesa step back, waits for the
killer to walk forward, avoidsthe bloodstains and moves away.
There's a man that's sittingbehind the murderer, sees the
(15:06):
crime, leans over in his seat tolook at the aisle and the blood
trail in the aisle never moves.
Then there's two others at theback of the train.
One of them in the oppositeaisle, opposite the aisle, sees
the crime happens and just sitsthere with this shocked look on
his face never moves.
The other one, who's in linewith the murderer, at the back
of the train, probably fiveseats back, maybe four.
(15:26):
He's so engrossed in what'sgoing on in his phone and with
his headphones on that hedoesn't even react to the
commotion.
So I need to ask how do wedisassociate ourselves so much
as regular people?
Because I'm sure these peopleare not criminals, they're not
murderers.
No one went to help Irinaeither during the commission of
(15:49):
the crime and I can certainlyunderstand the self-preservation
aspect of that nor after thefact, when the threat was gone,
no one moved to help her, to seeif they could help her, to
check on her.
What can create that?
Melissa (16:03):
I'm still overwhelmed.
I'm still overwhelmed by thelack of response and, in all
fairness, none of us knowsexactly how we would respond in
that situation.
I would like to think that assoon as the immediate threat was
off the train the immediatethreat was off the train that I
(16:26):
would have run to help her, toput pressure on her, to, to at
least talk to her and tell heryou're not alone, I'm here with
you.
And when I think about the factthat she died she died alone
around how many people like that, just that, really it hits and
we can say they didn't doanything because we live in a,
(16:48):
in a culture where many, manypeople have criminal activity.
It will also put me at risk andwhen you've grown up seeing and
(17:08):
hearing and believing, don'tget involved, that's not your
problem, leave it over there.
That's exactly what we saw onthis train and it's interesting
because I was talking tosomebody earlier today and a
person happened to be in lawenforcement and shared with me
this view and and I asked forpermission to share this here
(17:32):
said so.
What happens when a cop call itdowntown chicago?
What happens when the white copshoots the black kid?
What?
What do all the people.
Oh, they surround the the copand they black kid.
What do all the people?
Evan (17:44):
Oh, they surround the cop and they have their phones out
and they're yelling andscreaming.
Melissa (17:48):
Murderer, murderer, you're a murderer.
Evan (17:51):
Yeah, racist.
Melissa (17:53):
As they're there with their phones, yelling and, you
know, getting violent themselvesthemselves.
So what happens when the gangleader in the same town, same
block walks up to a house andshoots black kid?
We don't know why.
What does everybody do?
Evan (18:12):
They hold vigils.
Melissa (18:13):
They scatter.
Evan (18:13):
And they scatter.
Melissa (18:14):
Yeah, they're not talking to the police.
They're not screaming murderer.
They're not asking questionsmurderer.
They're not asking questions,they're silenced, except that
poor baby's mama who's sobbingover him, and I thought it was
really interesting how this wasframed and this person happens
(18:37):
to also be african-american andwas sharing it with me in this
way because people will look atsomeone who didn't murder anyone
, but they've been trained tobelieve that person's a threat.
That person who's actuallythere to help them is a threat
and must have not been warrantedin what happened.
(18:59):
It doesn't matter if that kidhad a gun that he was aiming at
the cop.
Evan (19:05):
Right.
Melissa (19:05):
And yet when the gang leader walks up to the kid
that's unarmed and shoots him incold blood, nobody's calling
him a murderer.
And that's the same concept.
It is fear, it's desperation,it's self-preservation and a lot
of this, a lot of the thingsthat are going on right now.
It's generational.
(19:26):
It is how mom and dad wereraised, it's how you were raised
and it's how you're raisingyour kids.
And we are seeing more and morepeople standing up and saying,
no, I'm going to change thesecycles, I'm going to be a cycle
breaker and people aren't goingto like it.
(19:48):
They're not going to like that.
I go help that kid because, godforbid, he doesn't have the
same skin color as me.
But you know, we're teachingour kids.
It doesn't matter what religionsomebody practices, what
somebody's skin color is.
It doesn't matter what religionsomebody practices, what
somebody's skin color is, itdoesn't matter what sexuality
they choose to practice in theirpersonal life.
None of this matters.
(20:09):
What matters is the characterof the person.
Do they have character?
What do they do when nobody'swatching?
Do they put the grocery cartback in the spot that Giant has
for the large grocery carts, ordo they put it in the small one,
or do they leave it beside thecar because nobody is telling
(20:32):
them they have to do it and soit doesn't matter?
Do they care about the peoplearound them?
I mean just some of thecomments that I've seen about
the death of Charlie.
I'm glad he's dead.
Evan (20:45):
Yeah, I mean again, we go back to this and I like what you
were just saying about being acycle breaker, because that's
what Charlie was.
Charlie was a cycle breaker.
Charlie was the guy that wentand said okay, change my mind,
convince me that I'm wrong.
I know what I believe as aChristian, as a man, as a father
(21:09):
, as a husband, as aconservative, with all the
viewpoints that I have.
Melissa (21:14):
He was secure.
I know.
Evan (21:15):
Yes, he was secure in what he believed and he was willing
to discuss it with you and hewelcomed people to dissent him.
He welcomed people to bringtheir ideas to the front.
Melissa (21:27):
Do you know how I found out about him?
Evan (21:29):
How's that?
Melissa (21:29):
From my older daughter.
Oh she is the one that was likehey mom, have you seen this?
Now she's 13 and she's beenwatching him, I think for about
the last two years, and she'sthe one who's like have you seen
this?
He On watching politics andwatching the news and asking
(21:52):
hard questions.
We have had conversations aboutabortion and how that interacts
with faith, and where is theline between I believe what I
believe and you're allowed tobelieve what you believe?
We don't need to shove thatdown each other's throats.
We've talked abouttransgendered issues, we've
(22:14):
talked about drugs, we've talkedabout addictions, we've talked
about so many different things,and he really did open up, I
think, the door for people totalk about things in a civil.
Well, he was always civil in acivil way.
Evan (22:35):
Yeah, yeah.
Whenever you have a debate, ifyou're going to have a civil
debate, you'll have to have acivil debate with two people who
are utilizing facts and figures.
Melissa (22:45):
But isn't a debate about right and wrong, winning
and losing?
Evan (22:48):
Debate is just about two different opinions, or not even
that different of opinions, butit's a discussion of, it's an
exchange of ideas, it's asharing of ideas.
We have painted debates, as youknow, an opposing viewpoint to
an opposing viewpoint.
That wasn't always the case.
In some cases, early on inAmerica's founding, you had
(23:08):
people that very much agreedthat we needed to be our own
nation.
We had people that very muchagreed that the king of England
was treating us poorly.
They disagreed on aspects ofthat, they disagreed on nuances
of that, and they had thosediscussions and those debates.
And sometimes those things canget heated when the passions
(23:30):
rise and people's emotions takeover.
But what you need to thinkabout and what you really need
to do is realize that this is aperson's opinion or their ideas,
if not destructive to you, aresimply thoughts, and words are
words and they are conveyed insuch a way that they formulate
(23:51):
opinions, and that is okay.
For people to have their owndifferences of opinion.
It's not evil to have anopinion.
Some opinions are evil, butit's not evil to have an opinion
.
Melissa (24:04):
So I pulled up New Oxford Dictionary and as a noun
it defines debate as a formaldiscussion on a particular topic
in a public meeting orlegislative assembly in which
opposing arguments are putforward.
An argument about a particularsubject, especially one in which
many people are involved.
As a verb, it's argue about asubject, especially in a formal
(24:28):
manner, consider a possiblecourse of action in one's mind
before reaching a decision.
And I think that's thedifference here of what we're
talking about is debate versusconversation.
And I don't think Charlie wasabout right and wrong,
necessarily.
He was about let's have aconversation where you get to
(24:51):
share your opinions on thingsand I'm going to share my
opinions and nobody's sayinganybody has to change them,
right?
We're allowed to just share howwe believe and it's pretty cool
.
I know it's pretty cool when Ican have a conversation with
somebody.
Nobody's trying to be right,we're just saying hey look, this
(25:12):
is my view on it, share with meabout yours.
And I always walk away fromthose conversations learning
something new, and it's prettycool.
Evan (25:20):
Yeah, yeah, I think that's a lot of what Charlie was doing
.
I think you know he also had apropensity to.
You know he was very learned,very smart.
He had a lot of facts insidethat very young head of his very
learned, very smart.
He had a lot of facts insidethat very young head of his and
he would push back on narrativesthat were incorrect or
narratives that didn't stand upto the facts.
Melissa (25:40):
I was going to say, he called out the difference
between opinion and fact.
Evan (25:43):
Yes, yes, absolutely.
And I think that's where theelement of debate comes in,
because a lot of people wouldsee that back and forth, yes,
and you know what?
Not every discussion has to bea change my mind discussion, no,
sometimes it's just aboutlearning what other people's
viewpoints are.
Melissa (26:02):
I think this is where so many people fail in their
communication and I'm not justtalking about in these huge ways
, I'm talking about in marriages, in friendships, sibling
relationships.
The person on the street is wehave such a mindset of I need to
be right and that means youneed to be wrong, instead of
(26:25):
healthy communication.
That involves listening and anattempt to understand where
somebody else is coming from andhaving that be the priority to
understand over to be right.
If we really want to cometogether with somebody and not
be divisive, the whole point islet's understand where the other
(26:49):
person is coming from, becauseI think you just touched on on
this that so often we shareparts of that middle ground.
We're so worried about theextreme difference that exists
on a fraction of a fraction of aconversation instead of just
focusing on everything we havein common, again, across
(27:13):
relationships and environmentsand systems.
Evan (27:16):
Yeah, there's so much involved in all of these
discussions and there's a lot offeelings, there's a lot of
emotions that get wrapped up init.
I think, really focusing onagain root causes as opposed to
symptoms of all these thingsthat we-.
Melissa (27:37):
We can't band-aid.
We can slap a bunch ofband-aids on a hemorrhaging
wound and it might stop thebleeding for a couple seconds,
but it is never going to fixwhat's underneath.
And what we are looking at is ahumanity problem.
We're looking at a heartproblem, and my personal opinion
(27:58):
is that we are looking at aworld that has stepped away from
God as the source of ourhumanity.
And when we look at a societylike that, I mean what did the
Constitution say?
It said that the Constitutionis only as, not the Constitution
.
It was one of the writers ofthe Constitution.
The Constitution will only be.
Evan (28:19):
Yeah, that was John Adams when he was president in 1798.
He was writing a letter to theMassachusetts militia and he was
saying that we have nogovernment armed with power
capable of contending with humanpassions unbridled by morality
and religion.
Avarice, ambition, revenge orgallantry would break the
(28:39):
strongest cords of ourConstitution just as a whale
goes through a net.
Our Constitution was made onlyfor moral and religious people.
It is wholly inadequate to thegovernment of any other.
The idea that he was espousingis that our constitution must be
accepted within the bonds ofmorality.
When you take morality out ofthe equation, the constitution
(29:02):
becomes a flimsy document.
Anybody can change it.
Melissa (29:06):
And I think that's where we've gotten is everyone
isn't on the same ground, usingthe same moral compass, and when
we have a killer, be it with aknife or a gun, that uses a
knife, and then one group standsup and uses what was the
platform, they're raising moneyfor the guy.
Evan (29:29):
Oh, GoFundMe.
Melissa (29:30):
They're two different GoFundMes for a murderer and
there go fund me, they're.
They're two different.
Go fund me is for a murdererand there's no doubt in my mind
that there will be another groupthat steps up to go fund me for
Charlie Kirk's killer.
And when we live in a societywhere people continue to support
this, the the taking senselesstaking of life over conversation
(29:51):
, it's going to continue.
Evan (29:52):
Well, taking senseless taking of life over conversation
, yeah, it's going to continueWell, and the senseless taking
of life for somebody justexisting on the same rail car as
you.
You know, I I agree with you.
I think the root cause of allof this is desperation.
People feel alone and then theyfeel tribal, attached to their
tribal identities.
(30:13):
So, whatever the you knowpolitical affiliation that they
have people that look like themor think like them, they're
going to gravitate to thosekinds of situations.
They're going to behave likethem, they're going to support
them.
I think people look.
We're living in a time when Ithink people are living their
(30:34):
lives in a constant state of,you know, fight, flight or
freeze, as you say Right.
Melissa (30:39):
Sure.
Evan (30:40):
Every day is a struggle to stay above water for some
people.
Financially For some, theircommunities are so unsafe that
it's literally self-preservationevery day, just to wake up
tomorrow.
Melissa (30:53):
And I have to protect me and my own first.
Evan (30:55):
Yeah, for so many people in our cities and our
communities it's a daily trauma,add-on time and time again,
moment after moment.
I think in a lot of ways ourmajor cities are mirroring what
Soviet Russia looked like duringthe Cold War, where you have
tribalism and desperation anddepression and so many things
(31:19):
are allied against people.
In those kinds of situationsthere's a lot of I don't see a
path forward, I can't get ahead.
Who can I blame for this?
Melissa (31:29):
We're living.
We know this.
We are living in a broken worldthat's full of broken people
and there's I'm so good with,like, pulling out these.
You know so-and-so saidsomething about something.
The whole concept of hurtpeople hurt people and healed
people heal people and it'sinadequate because we're all
(31:53):
broken, we're all hurt, we allhave trauma.
Some of us take our trauma andsay how can I use this to help
other people?
And then there are the peoplethat have the trauma and they
don't trust the world.
They put up their walls anddecide that feelings are harmful
and vulnerability is harmful.
(32:14):
So I'm going to isolate.
I'm going to build my ownlittle world here where
everything revolves around meand I get to do what I want.
So hurt people don't alwayshurt people.
Sometimes.
Evan (32:27):
Well, they hurt themselves .
Melissa (32:28):
They do.
But hurt people can also chooseto help heal people.
Evan (32:33):
Yeah, I think we're just.
We're living in a culture and aworld where it's just
continuing to breed apathy andignorance and tribalism and
violence.
It's breeding silence and, Ithink, again shutting down those
conversations.
I mean, this assassination ofCharlie Kirk was intended to
silence debate and discussionand dialogue, and yet what is it
(32:54):
doing for us?
Well.
Melissa (32:57):
What did you text me after it?
Evan (32:59):
Well, we're getting louder .
Melissa (33:00):
We're going to get louder.
Evan (33:01):
We're going to get louder.
Melissa (33:02):
And I think that that is the sense among people is, if
you're going to try to silenceme and this is my whole
mentality the more you try tosilence me, the louder I'm going
to speak, because it means I'ma threat.
Evan (33:15):
Critics and where killing critics created fear among the
population because they'd livefor generations in that kind of
(33:37):
a society.
That's not America.
That's not who we are as apeople, that's not how this
nation got started and it'scertainly not how this nation's
going to go.
We are not a population thatcan be controlled.
We're not a population that'sgoing to listen to your mind,
your own business.
Shut up, sit down, take it.
You don't matter and you can'thelp anyway.
(33:58):
Even if you do and if you do,you bear the risk.
Well, we don't kowtow to that.
No, we're not afraid of that.
We don't believe it.
We know that each of usindividually can make a
difference.
We know that each of usindividually can make a
difference.
We know that all of us togethercan make a huge difference, and
it takes the free exchange ofideas in order for us to make a
(34:20):
more perfect world.
Melissa (34:21):
For our kids and their kids.
Evan (34:23):
And their kids, and the founders knew that that's what
our country was founded on isthe idea that what we have is
not good enough for the future.
So let's talk about how we getto a better future, and that is
ingrained in every singleAmerican.
It doesn't matter if you wereborn here or you came here and
(34:44):
you adopted our values.
It doesn't matter if you comefrom a long generational history
of people that have been heresince early days or if your
family was brought here by someway or another.
If you've been in America, ifyou've really looked at our
history, if you've reallyenmeshed yourself in the
(35:05):
American culture and youunderstand what this country
gives you as a citizen, then youknow it's built into you.
You come here for one reasonand one reason only, and that
reason is liberty.
You come here because here iswhere you can be whoever it is
you want to be.
Melissa (35:25):
It's so true.
Evan (35:26):
So the answer to our problem, I think, is really
reducing desperation andremembering the spirit of who we
are as people in America, andit's not to be controlled.
We rebelled against the biggestking or the greatest king, the
biggest country, the broadestempire in the world, and we said
no thanks.
Melissa (35:48):
Well, I think coming up here, you know we're gonna have
a lot of conversations aboutthe different parts of our
society, the different socialsystems, the education system,
the child welfare system, theprison system, the judiciary and
what its purpose is, and how isit really protecting the public
(36:08):
?
Whose rights matter more in allof these different places?
So I think we have some reallygood topics coming up to talk
about and be real about, andbring in people that work in
those environments and see itfrom the inside.
Evan (36:26):
Absolutely yeah, and we're going to, we'll, we'll, we'll
talk about some of the, you know, incidents that we've already
brought up on this episode inroute in regards to some of
those topics in the future, andI'm sure other things will come
up.
But you're, you're right, we,we are going to start having
real conversations about thesereal topics and really dive into
(36:48):
, okay, where we are isn't goodenough.
Melissa (36:50):
How can we make it better.
Evan (36:54):
Right, absolutely All right.
So we want to leave everybodytoday with a song from Tom
McDonald.
He's at Tom McDonald officialon all the social medias and his
websites hangovergangcom.
This was a song that he puttogether just in a 24-hour
period about Charlie, and wewant to send our condolences and
(37:16):
our prayers and our thoughts toCharlie's family, especially
his wife and his kids, and wereally just hope that God will
protect them, keep them, inspirethem and comfort them in this
time.
Melissa (37:31):
And yeah, absolutely, because hurt people can heal
people.
Evan (37:35):
Absolutely so.
Here's Tom McDonald.
Tom MacDonald (37:39):
Shot down and he was barely 31.
Another woke coward took a lifewith a gun.
He left behind a wife and adaughter and a son.
All he did was try to speak forall of us, and I'm so tired of
the hatred and the narratives.
The patriots ain't dangerous.
Woke people are the terrorists.
They shot and killed the fatherSent a message to Americans
they ain't gonna stop until theybury us.
(37:59):
Dear Charlie, I don't know ifyou can see us now, but if
heaven has a window, I sure hopeyou're looking down, cause we
ain't going quiet.
We gonna scream your name loudand you're gone.
But name loud and you're gone.
But I swear to god that wegonna make you proud.
We ain't backing off or givingup.
I'll preach what you taught methey may have killed a soldier,
but that man had an army.
This is far more deep than somepolitical parties and you can't
kill freedom.
(38:20):
so this one is for charlie thisain't the america that all our
parents love.
But good man tried.
He keep making it great praythat god will take care of us.
The the system is failing uswhen good men die for the things
that they say, and I can't justbe quiet.
So I gotta be brave, cause thisis America Lately it's scaring
(38:40):
us, but one good man can changeit all in a day.
Killed in cold blood for havinga discussion.
And liberals are celebratingmurder like it's justice.
You didn't kill a villain orthe evil that it comes with.
You killed a father and ahusband, are celebrating murder
like it's justice.
You didn't kill a villain orthe evil that it comes with.
You killed a father and ahusband and I'm so tired of the
left and all the wokery.
We can't get along if you justkill us when we don't agree.
Sniper rifle fired from aliberal that no one sees Scared.
(39:03):
I might be next to die when I'mjust buying groceries.
Charlie, we'll make sure yourchildren know that defending all
our freedom is why you aren'tcoming home.
I hope heaven has a window.
You can watch your childrengrow and hear your message echo
from below, and we ain't backingoff or giving up.
I'll preach what you taught me.
They may have killed a soldier,but that man had an army.
This is far more deep than somepolitical parties and you can't
(39:24):
kill freedom.
So this one is for Charlie.
This ain't the America that allour parents love.
But good men try to keep makingit great.
Pray that God will take care ofus.
The system is failing us, butgood men die for the things that
they say, and I can't just bequiet.
So I got to be brave, becausethis is America.
Lately it's scaring us, but onegood man can change it all in a
(39:48):
day.
Welcome back everybody.
Another episode of theUnmentionables.
As always, I'm Evan.
I'm here with Melissa.
Melissa (00:07):
I'm here.
Evan (00:09):
It's a couple days after a pretty devastating time in our
country for many who both agreedand disagreed with Charlie Kirk
, who was killed the other dayby a mentally unstable left-wing
lunatic propelled byanti-fascist ideas, desensitized
by video games and detachedfrom reality.
(00:30):
I, like many in theconservative political movement
around the Tea Party, years,came into contact, met Charlie a
couple times when he was ateenager, in his very early 20s,
when he was just a kid.
He had an idea, he had a planand a passion and he got a lot
of people to buy into that ideaand ultimately I followed his
(00:53):
career and he built one of themost incredible outreach
organizations ever conceived.
He reached a portion of theelectorate and a portion of the
population that the conservativeconcepts hadn't reached in many
decades.
He was a guy whose mission wasto engage people in dialogue,
and one of I think the quotesthat stands out to me the most
(01:16):
from his life is, he said whenpeople stop talking, really bad
stuff starts.
When marriages stop talking,divorce happens.
When civilizations stop talking, civil war ensues.
When you stop having a humanconnection with someone that you
disagree with, it becomes a loteasier to want to commit
violence against that group.
(01:37):
This is a guy who invited thosepeople who vehemently disagreed
with him to be the first ones atthe microphone.
He wanted them to share theirideas and be exposed to his, and
this is the same reason that westarted this podcast.
Our goal on the Unmentionableis to talk about things that
we're not supposed to, becausewe believe truly that it's
(01:59):
darkness that creates fear, fearthat creates hate and hate that
creates suffering.
He was killed by a guy wholiterally lived his life on the
internet, and we know thisbecause of some of the things
that are coming out about him.
I'm not even going to talkabout the guy's name, but the
guy who killed him was sodependent on the internet and
(02:20):
the isolation that comes withthe internet that he literally
wrote internet memes on thecasings of the internet, that he
literally wrote internet memeson the casings of the bullets
that he was prepared to fire.
One of them was references tofurries and support for the
furry movement.
For those of you that don'tknow, furries are adults who
think they're animals.
Melissa (02:39):
And children.
Evan (02:40):
There's children that are getting involved in this as well
.
Yeah, it's a wild culture.
Another one said, hey, fascistcatch.
And then it was followed by acheat code for a video game that
drops a big, huge bomb on anarea.
Another one said, oh, bellaCiao, bella Ciao, bella Ciao,
ciao Ciao, which is an oldItalian anti-fascist song from
(03:01):
World War II.
And the fourth one said if youread this, you are gay L-M-A-O,
which is laughing my ass off.
To give kind of a sense of whereall those things come from.
Every one of those is areference to some kind of alt
lifestyle or anti-fascistleft-wing ideology and that
(03:23):
lifestyle, those ideologies onthe left, tend to press people
into an online society.
They tend to press people intoisolation.
They pit groups one againstanother.
You think about things again.
The anti-fascists are one.
Bl BLM is another, that ittakes something about a group of
(03:47):
people, finds the differencesfrom other groups and then says
if they're not like you in thisway, they're evil.
Many people out there areshocked and they're surprised by
this shooting, but I'm reallyneither one of these things.
This was inevitable.
It was foreseeable.
It's a consequence of usconstantly seeking to treat the
symptoms of our problems and notthe root cause.
(04:10):
I want to talk about rootcauses and the root cause in
this case and I think in a lotof cases of violence, is rooted
in disassociation, in detachmentfrom reality and in desperation
.
So, in the spirit of theunmentionables, where I ask the
questions and you get to do theanswers, melissa, what drives
people to isolate and to lean sofar into this disassociative
(04:34):
kind of thinking?
Melissa (04:35):
Well, you know I do trauma, so my go-to answer on
this is trauma.
We don't escape reality andisolate from other humans.
It's not how we were designed.
We were designed to live and bein communities with each other.
(04:56):
And I think you really you hitthe nail on the head when you
said it's disassociation.
It's also dehumanization, whenone person can take life or talk
about the loss of a life, andthis you know.
I think people should know thatwe were coming into this week
(05:17):
wanting to talk about theUkrainian refugee.
Evan (05:22):
Irina, irina Zvortka.
Melissa (05:29):
Ukrainian refugee, irina Irina Zvortka, that was
brutally stabbed on that trainin Charlotte while people around
her either walked away orlooked and then looked away or
just had no idea it was going on.
And I think this concept oflife hits me particularly this
week.
My dad passed away on Tuesdaynight and it doesn't matter what
(05:52):
kind of relationship I did ordidn't have with him, it's still
the loss of a life.
And I hadn't, I hadn't talkedto my dad in about five years
and there's a lot around that,and still we can look at that
and say a life is gone.
And this dehumanization ofpeople, the name-calling, the
(06:15):
rhetoric around the evilness ofcertain people because they have
beliefs that are different thanyours, it really is people who
are no longer recognizing thatthey're amidst other humans.
We all live and breathe, webleed the same color blood.
(06:36):
These differences, thisdivisiveness, it causes more
trauma, it causes desperation,it causes people, especially
with these video games.
Right, if you're shootingpeople up on a video game day in
and day out and not seeing theconsequences of that especially?
I know nothing about thisindividual.
(06:58):
However, in a profiling way, Icould tell you from an emotional
standpoint he was veryemotionally stunted Because by
the age of 22,.
You understand object permanence.
You understand that when youtake life, that life is gone.
(07:21):
That concept is something thatwe develop and come to
understand.
So you look at this and whensomebody exposes themselves to
that environment day in and dayout, like I said, it dehumanizes
people.
It gives you, just likeanything else.
If I tell myself that the grassis blue and the sky is green,
(07:43):
for long enough, I'm going tobelieve that the grass is blue
and the sky is green.
For long enough, I'm going tobelieve that the sky is green
and the grass is blue.
Evan (07:50):
And when people who have that sort of desensitization and
dehumanization, desensitization, desensitization to violence
and dehumanization of humanityand individuals as people and
they've isolated themselveswithin their own echo chamber,
when you start to use hot-buttonwords that trigger those
(08:13):
individuals calling someoneHitler, fascist, a threat to
democracy, all of these kinds ofthings does it trigger a fear
response inside of the brain ofsomeone like that, where they
feel like they are sent intosort of a fight or flight and
they need to do something andthey need to stop all of this
(08:33):
and maybe their delusions ofgrandeur take over and any kind
of narcissistic complex thatthey might have is activated and
triggered.
Is that kind of how that works?
Melissa (08:45):
Well, sure, think about a video game.
What happens when you killpeople in a video game?
Evan (08:49):
Well, you continue on with the game.
Melissa (08:52):
Don't you earn points or?
Evan (08:54):
prizes yes, you're rewarded.
You're right, you're rewarded.
Melissa (08:57):
And we live in a reward-based society.
We go to work because we getmoney.
We call that a reward,sometimes we call it a bribe.
But how many people canactually sit back and say
they're doing what they love andit wouldn't matter if they got
paid or not?
I mean, I can say that, but Idon't think there's very many
that can.
So when you are rewarded forthese maladaptive behaviors and
(09:24):
people who are enmeshed in videogames in that way, it's a
coping skill.
Outside is uncomfortable, butthis world is my new reality and
really what we're seeing is thenervous system and you brought
up fight or flight.
But what these video games dois they put people into the
dorsal part of their nervoussystem.
(09:45):
Have you ever seen somebodyplaying video games that almost
looks comatose?
Evan (09:50):
Yeah, yeah, sometimes our own kids right.
Melissa (09:52):
Right, but that's why we limit them.
That's why we limit them.
Staring, you might see a littlebit of drool sneaking down.
It's a blank look, because theymay as well be in a turtle
shell.
And when we access that dorsalpart of our nervous system it is
like a turtle shell, becausethe outside world is so unsafe,
(10:17):
there is imminent risk of death,and we've got to tuck inside
and imagine our own realitywhere all that stuff isn't
happening.
And that is this level ofisolation of video game use.
We can add in drug use, alcoholuse, using sex.
(10:40):
In that way I'm thinkingparticularly about the epidemic
of pornography use, prostitution, massage parlors, all of it,
even exercise shopping.
If they're taken to that degree, it's an escape.
Evan (10:58):
I mean, what role does the media play in this as well?
As you know again, sort ofputting yourself in that echo
chamber, when you have not justpolitical figures but every news
channel that you turn on forthe most part, you get a steady
stream of these people thatthink this way are fascists.
They hate you, they want tomurder you, they want to kill
(11:20):
you, they don't care about yourlife, they don't care what you
think, they want to take thethings you have away from you.
And it's in all kinds of media.
It's not just the news, it's intelevision shows, it's in
movies, it's embedded into videogames, social media, social
media.
Melissa (11:40):
That is what triggers fight or flight and propaganda.
Right, but the term I used wasgang mentality.
What's the one that you hadused earlier?
Group?
Evan (11:52):
Group think.
Melissa (11:52):
Group think, and that is what this is is.
I am going to think like thosearound me, because it's a sense
of belonging, it's a sense ofcommunity in a lot of ways, and
so I will align how I think tohelp me be part of this group
where I feel like I fit in.
(12:13):
And when ideas are introducedand you go against the fray,
well then I'm losing my familyand that's scary for people,
scary to lose family.
We don't just walk away andrestart because it's fun.
Evan (12:26):
Yeah, I want to go.
You brought up Irina Zarytska.
For those who may be unaware,just a little bit of a
background on this.
This was last month inCharlotte, north Carolina.
Irina was a 23-year-oldUkrainian refugee who fled Kiev
from the Russian invasion withher family.
(12:47):
Her father is still in Ukraine,wasn't even able to come to her
funeral because he'sconscripted into the armed
forces.
He's a fighting age, so he'sbusy doing his job.
She had a degree in art andrestoration.
She was studying English.
She wanted to be a veterinaryassistant.
She was all the best things ofto be a veterinary assistant.
She was all the best things ofimmigration that you could think
of.
She was killed by a 34-year-oldcareer criminal, homeless man.
(13:11):
14 separate convictions since2007,.
Felonies including larceny,armed robbery, breaking and
entering Multiple, multipletimes this guy has been in a
courtroom.
He served five years, startingin 2015 for armed robbery,
possession of stolen goods,resisting arrest.
Immediately after his releasewhich, by the way, was a year
(13:36):
early, he was arrested forassault.
Then he was arrested separatelyfor communicating threats and
misusing 911.
All of this happened prior tothe murder on a train car with
five other people right next tohim.
He was diagnosed withschizophrenia, delusional
behavior, claims of mind control.
And after he pulled out a knifeit was a knife, by the way, not
(13:59):
a gun.
But once he pulled out theknife and slit this girl's
throat who was sitting in frontof him minding her own business,
he reportedly said I got thatwhite girl before leaving the
train car at the next stop.
And I want to talk about thisnot from necessarily a view into
the mind of the killer, becauseI think we can all agree he's a
mentally disturbed individualand there can be a lot of, you
(14:22):
know, medical diagnoses of whysomeone acts the way they act
when they're in that kind of asituation.
But it's pretty clear there'sdisturbed mentality there.
But I want to look at it fromthe perspective of the others.
On the train and you broughtthis up earlier there was a
woman sitting across the aislefrom the murdered girl.
She looks to her left, she seeswhat happens and then she turns
(14:46):
her head and she activelyignores it until the killer
leaves the train and then shegets up and moves away.
There is a man behind thatwoman who sees the crime happen,
stands up from his seat, takesa step back, waits for the
killer to walk forward, avoidsthe bloodstains and moves away.
There's a man that's sittingbehind the murderer, sees the
(15:06):
crime, leans over in his seat tolook at the aisle and the blood
trail in the aisle never moves.
Then there's two others at theback of the train.
One of them in the oppositeaisle, opposite the aisle, sees
the crime happens and just sitsthere with this shocked look on
his face never moves.
The other one, who's in linewith the murderer, at the back
of the train, probably fiveseats back, maybe four.
(15:26):
He's so engrossed in what'sgoing on in his phone and with
his headphones on that hedoesn't even react to the
commotion.
So I need to ask how do wedisassociate ourselves so much
as regular people?
Because I'm sure these peopleare not criminals, they're not
murderers.
No one went to help Irinaeither during the commission of
(15:49):
the crime and I can certainlyunderstand the self-preservation
aspect of that nor after thefact, when the threat was gone,
no one moved to help her, to seeif they could help her, to
check on her.
What can create that?
Melissa (16:03):
I'm still overwhelmed.
I'm still overwhelmed by thelack of response and, in all
fairness, none of us knowsexactly how we would respond in
that situation.
I would like to think that assoon as the immediate threat was
off the train the immediatethreat was off the train that I
(16:26):
would have run to help her, toput pressure on her, to, to at
least talk to her and tell heryou're not alone, I'm here with
you.
And when I think about the factthat she died she died alone
around how many people like that, just that, really it hits and
we can say they didn't doanything because we live in a,
(16:48):
in a culture where many, manypeople have criminal activity.
It will also put me at risk andwhen you've grown up seeing and
(17:08):
hearing and believing, don'tget involved, that's not your
problem, leave it over there.
That's exactly what we saw onthis train and it's interesting
because I was talking tosomebody earlier today and a
person happened to be in lawenforcement and shared with me
this view and and I asked forpermission to share this here
(17:32):
said so.
What happens when a cop call itdowntown chicago?
What happens when the white copshoots the black kid?
What?
What do all the people.
Oh, they surround the the copand they black kid.
What do all the people?
Evan (17:44):
Oh, they surround the cop and they have their phones out
and they're yelling andscreaming.
Melissa (17:48):
Murderer, murderer, you're a murderer.
Evan (17:51):
Yeah, racist.
Melissa (17:53):
As they're there with their phones, yelling and, you
know, getting violent themselvesthemselves.
So what happens when the gangleader in the same town, same
block walks up to a house andshoots black kid?
We don't know why.
What does everybody do?
Evan (18:12):
They hold vigils.
Melissa (18:13):
They scatter.
Evan (18:13):
And they scatter.
Melissa (18:14):
Yeah, they're not talking to the police.
They're not screaming murderer.
They're not asking questionsmurderer.
They're not asking questions,they're silenced, except that
poor baby's mama who's sobbingover him, and I thought it was
really interesting how this wasframed and this person happens
(18:37):
to also be african-american andwas sharing it with me in this
way because people will look atsomeone who didn't murder anyone
, but they've been trained tobelieve that person's a threat.
That person who's actuallythere to help them is a threat
and must have not been warrantedin what happened.
(18:59):
It doesn't matter if that kidhad a gun that he was aiming at
the cop.
Evan (19:05):
Right.
Melissa (19:05):
And yet when the gang leader walks up to the kid
that's unarmed and shoots him incold blood, nobody's calling
him a murderer.
And that's the same concept.
It is fear, it's desperation,it's self-preservation and a lot
of this, a lot of the thingsthat are going on right now.
It's generational.
(19:26):
It is how mom and dad wereraised, it's how you were raised
and it's how you're raisingyour kids.
And we are seeing more and morepeople standing up and saying,
no, I'm going to change thesecycles, I'm going to be a cycle
breaker and people aren't goingto like it.
(19:48):
They're not going to like that.
I go help that kid because, godforbid, he doesn't have the
same skin color as me.
But you know, we're teachingour kids.
It doesn't matter what religionsomebody practices, what
somebody's skin color is.
It doesn't matter what religionsomebody practices, what
somebody's skin color is, itdoesn't matter what sexuality
they choose to practice in theirpersonal life.
None of this matters.
(20:09):
What matters is the characterof the person.
Do they have character?
What do they do when nobody'swatching?
Do they put the grocery cartback in the spot that Giant has
for the large grocery carts, ordo they put it in the small one,
or do they leave it beside thecar because nobody is telling
(20:32):
them they have to do it and soit doesn't matter?
Do they care about the peoplearound them?
I mean just some of thecomments that I've seen about
the death of Charlie.
I'm glad he's dead.
Evan (20:45):
Yeah, I mean again, we go back to this and I like what you
were just saying about being acycle breaker, because that's
what Charlie was.
Charlie was a cycle breaker.
Charlie was the guy that wentand said okay, change my mind,
convince me that I'm wrong.
I know what I believe as aChristian, as a man, as a father
(21:09):
, as a husband, as aconservative, with all the
viewpoints that I have.
Melissa (21:14):
He was secure.
I know.
Evan (21:15):
Yes, he was secure in what he believed and he was willing
to discuss it with you and hewelcomed people to dissent him.
He welcomed people to bringtheir ideas to the front.
Melissa (21:27):
Do you know how I found out about him?
Evan (21:29):
How's that?
Melissa (21:29):
From my older daughter.
Oh she is the one that was likehey mom, have you seen this?
Now she's 13 and she's beenwatching him, I think for about
the last two years, and she'sthe one who's like have you seen
this?
He On watching politics andwatching the news and asking
(21:52):
hard questions.
We have had conversations aboutabortion and how that interacts
with faith, and where is theline between I believe what I
believe and you're allowed tobelieve what you believe?
We don't need to shove thatdown each other's throats.
We've talked abouttransgendered issues, we've
(22:14):
talked about drugs, we've talkedabout addictions, we've talked
about so many different things,and he really did open up, I
think, the door for people totalk about things in a civil.
Well, he was always civil in acivil way.
Evan (22:35):
Yeah, yeah.
Whenever you have a debate, ifyou're going to have a civil
debate, you'll have to have acivil debate with two people who
are utilizing facts and figures.
Melissa (22:45):
But isn't a debate about right and wrong, winning
and losing?
Evan (22:48):
Debate is just about two different opinions, or not even
that different of opinions, butit's a discussion of, it's an
exchange of ideas, it's asharing of ideas.
We have painted debates, as youknow, an opposing viewpoint to
an opposing viewpoint.
That wasn't always the case.
In some cases, early on inAmerica's founding, you had
(23:08):
people that very much agreedthat we needed to be our own
nation.
We had people that very muchagreed that the king of England
was treating us poorly.
They disagreed on aspects ofthat, they disagreed on nuances
of that, and they had thosediscussions and those debates.
And sometimes those things canget heated when the passions
(23:30):
rise and people's emotions takeover.
But what you need to thinkabout and what you really need
to do is realize that this is aperson's opinion or their ideas,
if not destructive to you, aresimply thoughts, and words are
words and they are conveyed insuch a way that they formulate
(23:51):
opinions, and that is okay.
For people to have their owndifferences of opinion.
It's not evil to have anopinion.
Some opinions are evil, butit's not evil to have an opinion
.
Melissa (24:04):
So I pulled up New Oxford Dictionary and as a noun
it defines debate as a formaldiscussion on a particular topic
in a public meeting orlegislative assembly in which
opposing arguments are putforward.
An argument about a particularsubject, especially one in which
many people are involved.
As a verb, it's argue about asubject, especially in a formal
(24:28):
manner, consider a possiblecourse of action in one's mind
before reaching a decision.
And I think that's thedifference here of what we're
talking about is debate versusconversation.
And I don't think Charlie wasabout right and wrong,
necessarily.
He was about let's have aconversation where you get to
(24:51):
share your opinions on thingsand I'm going to share my
opinions and nobody's sayinganybody has to change them,
right?
We're allowed to just share howwe believe and it's pretty cool
.
I know it's pretty cool when Ican have a conversation with
somebody.
Nobody's trying to be right,we're just saying hey look, this
(25:12):
is my view on it, share with meabout yours.
And I always walk away fromthose conversations learning
something new, and it's prettycool.
Evan (25:20):
Yeah, yeah, I think that's a lot of what Charlie was doing
.
I think you know he also had apropensity to.
You know he was very learned,very smart.
He had a lot of facts insidethat very young head of his very
learned, very smart.
He had a lot of facts insidethat very young head of his and
he would push back on narrativesthat were incorrect or
narratives that didn't stand upto the facts.
Melissa (25:40):
I was going to say, he called out the difference
between opinion and fact.
Evan (25:43):
Yes, yes, absolutely.
And I think that's where theelement of debate comes in,
because a lot of people wouldsee that back and forth, yes,
and you know what?
Not every discussion has to bea change my mind discussion, no,
sometimes it's just aboutlearning what other people's
viewpoints are.
Melissa (26:02):
I think this is where so many people fail in their
communication and I'm not justtalking about in these huge ways
, I'm talking about in marriages, in friendships, sibling
relationships.
The person on the street is wehave such a mindset of I need to
be right and that means youneed to be wrong, instead of
(26:25):
healthy communication.
That involves listening and anattempt to understand where
somebody else is coming from andhaving that be the priority to
understand over to be right.
If we really want to cometogether with somebody and not
be divisive, the whole point islet's understand where the other
(26:49):
person is coming from, becauseI think you just touched on on
this that so often we shareparts of that middle ground.
We're so worried about theextreme difference that exists
on a fraction of a fraction of aconversation instead of just
focusing on everything we havein common, again, across
(27:13):
relationships and environmentsand systems.
Evan (27:16):
Yeah, there's so much involved in all of these
discussions and there's a lot offeelings, there's a lot of
emotions that get wrapped up init.
I think, really focusing onagain root causes as opposed to
symptoms of all these thingsthat we-.
Melissa (27:37):
We can't band-aid.
We can slap a bunch ofband-aids on a hemorrhaging
wound and it might stop thebleeding for a couple seconds,
but it is never going to fixwhat's underneath.
And what we are looking at is ahumanity problem.
We're looking at a heartproblem, and my personal opinion
(27:58):
is that we are looking at aworld that has stepped away from
God as the source of ourhumanity.
And when we look at a societylike that, I mean what did the
Constitution say?
It said that the Constitutionis only as, not the Constitution
.
It was one of the writers ofthe Constitution.
The Constitution will only be.
Evan (28:19):
Yeah, that was John Adams when he was president in 1798.
He was writing a letter to theMassachusetts militia and he was
saying that we have nogovernment armed with power
capable of contending with humanpassions unbridled by morality
and religion.
Avarice, ambition, revenge orgallantry would break the
(28:39):
strongest cords of ourConstitution just as a whale
goes through a net.
Our Constitution was made onlyfor moral and religious people.
It is wholly inadequate to thegovernment of any other.
The idea that he was espousingis that our constitution must be
accepted within the bonds ofmorality.
When you take morality out ofthe equation, the constitution
(29:02):
becomes a flimsy document.
Anybody can change it.
Melissa (29:06):
And I think that's where we've gotten is everyone
isn't on the same ground, usingthe same moral compass, and when
we have a killer, be it with aknife or a gun, that uses a
knife, and then one group standsup and uses what was the
platform, they're raising moneyfor the guy.
Evan (29:29):
Oh, GoFundMe.
Melissa (29:30):
They're two different GoFundMes for a murderer and
there go fund me, they're.
They're two different.
Go fund me is for a murdererand there's no doubt in my mind
that there will be another groupthat steps up to go fund me for
Charlie Kirk's killer.
And when we live in a societywhere people continue to support
this, the the taking senselesstaking of life over conversation
(29:51):
, it's going to continue.
Evan (29:52):
Well, taking senseless taking of life over conversation
, yeah, it's going to continueWell, and the senseless taking
of life for somebody justexisting on the same rail car as
you.
You know, I I agree with you.
I think the root cause of allof this is desperation.
People feel alone and then theyfeel tribal, attached to their
tribal identities.
(30:13):
So, whatever the you knowpolitical affiliation that they
have people that look like themor think like them, they're
going to gravitate to thosekinds of situations.
They're going to behave likethem, they're going to support
them.
I think people look.
We're living in a time when Ithink people are living their
(30:34):
lives in a constant state of,you know, fight, flight or
freeze, as you say Right.
Melissa (30:39):
Sure.
Evan (30:40):
Every day is a struggle to stay above water for some
people.
Financially For some, theircommunities are so unsafe that
it's literally self-preservationevery day, just to wake up
tomorrow.
Melissa (30:53):
And I have to protect me and my own first.
Evan (30:55):
Yeah, for so many people in our cities and our
communities it's a daily trauma,add-on time and time again,
moment after moment.
I think in a lot of ways ourmajor cities are mirroring what
Soviet Russia looked like duringthe Cold War, where you have
tribalism and desperation anddepression and so many things
(31:19):
are allied against people.
In those kinds of situationsthere's a lot of I don't see a
path forward, I can't get ahead.
Who can I blame for this?
Melissa (31:29):
We're living.
We know this.
We are living in a broken worldthat's full of broken people
and there's I'm so good with,like, pulling out these.
You know so-and-so saidsomething about something.
The whole concept of hurtpeople hurt people and healed
people heal people and it'sinadequate because we're all
(31:53):
broken, we're all hurt, we allhave trauma.
Some of us take our trauma andsay how can I use this to help
other people?
And then there are the peoplethat have the trauma and they
don't trust the world.
They put up their walls anddecide that feelings are harmful
and vulnerability is harmful.
(32:14):
So I'm going to isolate.
I'm going to build my ownlittle world here where
everything revolves around meand I get to do what I want.
So hurt people don't alwayshurt people.
Sometimes.
Evan (32:27):
Well, they hurt themselves .
Melissa (32:28):
They do.
But hurt people can also chooseto help heal people.
Evan (32:33):
Yeah, I think we're just.
We're living in a culture and aworld where it's just
continuing to breed apathy andignorance and tribalism and
violence.
It's breeding silence and, Ithink, again shutting down those
conversations.
I mean, this assassination ofCharlie Kirk was intended to
silence debate and discussionand dialogue, and yet what is it
(32:54):
doing for us?
Well.
Melissa (32:57):
What did you text me after it?
Evan (32:59):
Well, we're getting louder .
Melissa (33:00):
We're going to get louder.
Evan (33:01):
We're going to get louder.
Melissa (33:02):
And I think that that is the sense among people is, if
you're going to try to silenceme and this is my whole
mentality the more you try tosilence me, the louder I'm going
to speak, because it means I'ma threat.
Evan (33:15):
Critics and where killing critics created fear among the
population because they'd livefor generations in that kind of
(33:37):
a society.
That's not America.
That's not who we are as apeople, that's not how this
nation got started and it'scertainly not how this nation's
going to go.
We are not a population thatcan be controlled.
We're not a population that'sgoing to listen to your mind,
your own business.
Shut up, sit down, take it.
You don't matter and you can'thelp anyway.
(33:58):
Even if you do and if you do,you bear the risk.
Well, we don't kowtow to that.
No, we're not afraid of that.
We don't believe it.
We know that each of usindividually can make a
difference.
We know that each of usindividually can make a
difference.
We know that all of us togethercan make a huge difference, and
it takes the free exchange ofideas in order for us to make a
(34:20):
more perfect world.
Melissa (34:21):
For our kids and their kids.
Evan (34:23):
And their kids, and the founders knew that that's what
our country was founded on isthe idea that what we have is
not good enough for the future.
So let's talk about how we getto a better future, and that is
ingrained in every singleAmerican.
It doesn't matter if you wereborn here or you came here and
(34:44):
you adopted our values.
It doesn't matter if you comefrom a long generational history
of people that have been heresince early days or if your
family was brought here by someway or another.
If you've been in America, ifyou've really looked at our
history, if you've reallyenmeshed yourself in the
(35:05):
American culture and youunderstand what this country
gives you as a citizen, then youknow it's built into you.
You come here for one reasonand one reason only, and that
reason is liberty.
You come here because here iswhere you can be whoever it is
you want to be.
Melissa (35:25):
It's so true.
Evan (35:26):
So the answer to our problem, I think, is really
reducing desperation andremembering the spirit of who we
are as people in America, andit's not to be controlled.
We rebelled against the biggestking or the greatest king, the
biggest country, the broadestempire in the world, and we said
no thanks.
Melissa (35:48):
Well, I think coming up here, you know we're gonna have
a lot of conversations aboutthe different parts of our
society, the different socialsystems, the education system,
the child welfare system, theprison system, the judiciary and
what its purpose is, and how isit really protecting the public
(36:08):
?
Whose rights matter more in allof these different places?
So I think we have some reallygood topics coming up to talk
about and be real about, andbring in people that work in
those environments and see itfrom the inside.
Evan (36:26):
Absolutely yeah, and we're going to, we'll, we'll, we'll
talk about some of the, you know, incidents that we've already
brought up on this episode inroute in regards to some of
those topics in the future, andI'm sure other things will come
up.
But you're, you're right, we,we are going to start having
real conversations about thesereal topics and really dive into
(36:48):
, okay, where we are isn't goodenough.
Melissa (36:50):
How can we make it better.
Evan (36:54):
Right, absolutely All right.
So we want to leave everybodytoday with a song from Tom
McDonald.
He's at Tom McDonald officialon all the social medias and his
websites hangovergangcom.
This was a song that he puttogether just in a 24-hour
period about Charlie, and wewant to send our condolences and
(37:16):
our prayers and our thoughts toCharlie's family, especially
his wife and his kids, and wereally just hope that God will
protect them, keep them, inspirethem and comfort them in this
time.
Melissa (37:31):
And yeah, absolutely, because hurt people can heal
people.
Evan (37:35):
Absolutely so.
Here's Tom McDonald.
Tom MacDonald (37:39):
Shot down and he was barely 31.
Another woke coward took a lifewith a gun.
He left behind a wife and adaughter and a son.
All he did was try to speak forall of us, and I'm so tired of
the hatred and the narratives.
The patriots ain't dangerous.
Woke people are the terrorists.
They shot and killed the fatherSent a message to Americans
they ain't gonna stop until theybury us.
(37:59):
Dear Charlie, I don't know ifyou can see us now, but if
heaven has a window, I sure hopeyou're looking down, cause we
ain't going quiet.
We gonna scream your name loudand you're gone.
But name loud and you're gone.
But I swear to god that wegonna make you proud.
We ain't backing off or givingup.
I'll preach what you taught methey may have killed a soldier,
but that man had an army.
This is far more deep than somepolitical parties and you can't
kill freedom.
(38:20):
so this one is for charlie thisain't the america that all our
parents love.
But good man tried.
He keep making it great praythat god will take care of us.
The the system is failing uswhen good men die for the things
that they say, and I can't justbe quiet.
So I gotta be brave, cause thisis America Lately it's scaring
(38:40):
us, but one good man can changeit all in a day.
Killed in cold blood for havinga discussion.
And liberals are celebratingmurder like it's justice.
You didn't kill a villain orthe evil that it comes with.
You killed a father and ahusband, are celebrating murder
like it's justice.
You didn't kill a villain orthe evil that it comes with.
You killed a father and ahusband and I'm so tired of the
left and all the wokery.
We can't get along if you justkill us when we don't agree.
Sniper rifle fired from aliberal that no one sees Scared.
(39:03):
I might be next to die when I'mjust buying groceries.
Charlie, we'll make sure yourchildren know that defending all
our freedom is why you aren'tcoming home.
I hope heaven has a window.
You can watch your childrengrow and hear your message echo
from below, and we ain't backingoff or giving up.
I'll preach what you taught me.
They may have killed a soldier,but that man had an army.
This is far more deep than somepolitical parties and you can't
(39:24):
kill freedom.
So this one is for Charlie.
This ain't the America that allour parents love.
But good men try to keep makingit great.
Pray that God will take care ofus.
The system is failing us, butgood men die for the things that
they say, and I can't just bequiet.
So I got to be brave, becausethis is America.
Lately it's scaring us, but onegood man can change it all in a
(39:48):
day.
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