April 17, 2024 • 52 mins
On this episode we welcome Linguist and Translator Joel Stern to chat about the incredible case of poltergeist and psychokinesis that is chronicled in the book "The Elusive Force".
In Poland in April of 1983, 13 years old Joasia Gajewski would begin to exhibit amazing paranormal abilities that would lead scientists and doctors to study her and the phenomena surrounding her. Leaving them with more questions than amswers!
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-unseen-paranormal-podcast--5862293/support
Grab your copy of "The Elusive Force" on Amazon at the link below
https://www.amazon.com/Elusive-Force-Remarkable-Poltergeist-Psychokinetic/dp/1949501264
Host Eric and the show on the interwebs
https://www.facebook.com/eric.freeman.1048
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https://twitter.com/TheUnseenPara
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC7Nm2o2t_a1TlqDgqlpxxUg
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Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-unseen-paranormal-podcast--5862293/support
In Poland in April of 1983, 13 years old Joasia Gajewski would begin to exhibit amazing paranormal abilities that would lead scientists and doctors to study her and the phenomena surrounding her. Leaving them with more questions than amswers!
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-unseen-paranormal-podcast--5862293/support
Grab your copy of "The Elusive Force" on Amazon at the link below
https://www.amazon.com/Elusive-Force-Remarkable-Poltergeist-Psychokinetic/dp/1949501264
Host Eric and the show on the interwebs
https://www.facebook.com/eric.freeman.1048
https://www.instagram.com/theunseenparanormalpodcast/
https://twitter.com/TheUnseenPara
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC7Nm2o2t_a1TlqDgqlpxxUg
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1048687775648517https://www.facebook.com/UnseenParanormalPodcast Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-unseen-paranormal-podcast--5862293/support
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-unseen-paranormal-podcast--5862293/support
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:03):
Join us as we dive into thehistory hauntings and high strangers of the world
to try to better understand the paranormal. I will be your guide. I
am paranormal researcher and investigator Eric FreemanSimms. Welcome to the Unseen Paranormal Podcast.
(00:28):
Hey everybody, Welcome back to theUnseen parent Normal. Thank you for
tuning in today. Thank you forlistening. I am still getting over the
flu from last week, as youcan kind of hear him a little stopped
up, but other than that,I'm doing well. Coming very close.
I know, I tease y'all awhile back with some big things going on,
coming very close to that, comingto fruition. I don't want to
(00:49):
say anything because I don't want tojinx it, but as soon as I
can then I won't make that announcement. But very excited about things coming up
with the Unseen Paranormal, on thebrand and all that stuff. Also very
excited about Strangely Haunted. That isthe new docuseries that I am doing with
my good friend mister Austin Lawrence.And if you haven't checked it out yet,
(01:11):
go check it out on YouTube.Strangely Haunted. It's a docu series
where we investigate different locations and we'retrying to go to locations that maybe you've
never heard of and don't get reallya lot of you know, TV time
or press, and also that havea fascinating history and are fascinating looking,
and so, you know, wealso want to bring you true paranoral investigations.
(01:34):
There's so much bullshit out there onYouTube of people faking things and then
claiming they're not. They're just youknow, they should just come out and
say that they're entertainers and it's justfor entertainment. That's just a big thing
in the paranormal right now, andpeople want to yell skin walker and demonic
and all these buzzwords, and we'renot doing any of that. We're doing
real paranorm investigations without all the bellsand whistles and the flashy lights and things,
(01:57):
because most of that stuff doesn't reallywork. You can't prove that you're
communicating with spirits through a lot ofthat stuff. It's just they bring it
on TV because it's flashing and keepyour attention the flashing lights and the beeping
sounds and all that stuff. Sowe're also trying some new stuff that we
may or may not prove that youknow, we're getting activity with but we
try to go back to the basicswith you know, video and audio mainly
(02:22):
and trying to capture that stuff thatwe can't explain. We end up debunking
ourselves more often than not, andthat's part of the process. But yeah,
if you haven't checked out Strangely Haunted, please go check that out on
YouTube and hit that subscribe button,that light button. And I want to
say thank you to everybody who's checkedit out. So far, we have
almost thirteen thousand views on the firstvideo and one hundred and seventy seven lights,
(02:46):
which is insane. We never expectedto have that many views on our
very first video. The second videois coming out this Friday, which is
April nineteenth. We are live premieringit with me and Austin in the chat
room. We're on YouTube, soyou can come and jump in the chatroom
and ask us questions and chat withus about the video. And this is
(03:07):
part one of us in Franklin,Kentucky. Part two at the Simpson kind
of Archives of the Museum will beout next Friday, so come check it
out. We're really proud of it, and I promise you that this second
video is way better quality than thefirst one. We've we've figured out a
lot of the kinks and stuff andit's a learning experience, but also working
(03:29):
together with somebody that you've never filmedwith before or investigated with before, you
gotta work on those kings. Sohopefully I'll enjoy it. We're enjoying doing
it, and we'll continue to doit. We've got plenty of other locations
coming up that we're gonna be filmingthat, including this weekend, we're gonna
head to Brushy Mountain in Petros,Tennessee to do a big documentary video out
(03:50):
there, do an investigation and thehistory and the hauntings of it, So
tune in for that, stay tunedfor that coming up in May. And
then we got some other cool,exciting locations for you well coming up over
the next few months. So we'regonna try to put out a at least
one video a month and keep itgoing. So if you want to see
real paranlem investigating and hopefully we're entertainingeven when stuff is not happening, Yeah,
(04:13):
go check out Stranger hont It andsubscribe. I am done ranting for
the day. I'll be back withthe mental health talks here soon. I
just like I said, I'm stilltrying to get her flu and get good
and healthy for this weekend's investigation.So y'all enjoyed the show. Today we
have mister Joel Stern. We weretalking about a case in Poland from the
nineteen eighties of a girl named Yoashawho had apparently had poltergeist in psychokinetic abilities
(04:41):
and she was actually studied by scientists. And why this case is not more
widely known, I don't know.Joel Stern is just the He's not the
author of the book. He translatedthe book from Polish into English and he
actually got to meet Yoasha, thegirl that could use her mind to move
things and had all this activity goingon to run a very fascinating case.
So sit back, relax and enjoythe episode. We'll talk to you next
(05:04):
time. Have a good day.Hey, Joel, welcome to the show.
Thank you for joining us today.Well, I'm honored to be your
guest. Yeah, I had neverheard this case, and you emailed me
about your book The Elusive Force comingout and about the book that you translated.
We'll get more into that and it'sa really interesting case of poltergeist and
psychokinesis and scientific study of it.So I found it really fascinating. But
(05:30):
in the book you translated the book. You did not write the book.
It actually comes from two journalists fromPoland, where the story takes place,
right. So what is your backgroundand how did you get involved with translating
the book into English. Well,it started in nineteen eighty eight. I
was working as a staff translator fromSlavic languages at the State Department in Washington.
(05:55):
I started there in nineteen eighty fiveand in the mid eighties I met
this Polish couple. They emigrated fromWarsaw to the United States. The husband
was a bio energy therapist, whichis kind of paranormal in himself. He
could, you know, read people'sof aura diagnose their physical conditions, and
(06:16):
the wife was a journalist. Theyintroduced me to this book, The Elusive
Force, which had never been translatedinto English. It was about this really
extraordinary case of psychokinesis, telepathy andpoldergeist activity. And the wife of English
(06:40):
name is Margaret gave me the bookto read and I was fascinated by the
case, and it wasn't just adry scientific study. I think it had
real human interest, but we cango into that later. During the discussion,
in any case, Margaret suggested thatif I liked the book so much
thought it had Marrit, that Ishould consider translating it, and I agreed.
(07:08):
She told me that there was apublisher in the United States who might
be interested in bringing it out.Unfortunately that proved to be a false claim,
but we'll leave that aside for themoment. I did translate the book
starting and I think it was eitherDecember or January nineteen eighty nine, and
(07:28):
it took me about eight or ninemonths. I finished in the summer of
nineteen eighty nine, so that's basicallyhow I found out about the case.
I had never heard about it before. It was almost totally unknown in the
United States, partly known outside ofPoland except for a few sensationalist stories that
(07:48):
really didn't merit, you know,any serious attention. And it so happened
that since I spoke Polish got intouch with the authors and morsaw On Schitzka
and Monica Mushko. They invited meto come visit them and also pay a
(08:09):
visit to the girl and her family. In southern Poland, and I took
up the author in October of nineteeneighty nine and went to Poland for the
second time, and I met theauthors and they were gracious enough to drive
me all the way down to thetown of Chelaje, which is in Silesia,
(08:33):
southern Poland year the Czech border,and that's my first encounter with this
phenomenon occurred. Yeah, I wantto I want to get into that later
because that's kind of because because ittook you so long to get the book
published. Oh yes, wow,that's kind of the end of the story.
(08:54):
We need to go back to thebeginning when all this started. And
you're saying it took place in Poland, and the girl's name was Joasha Joasha
Gaeski. Well in Polish would begou yes ska. But I don't expect
English either to have a knowledge ofPolish gender distinctions. So yeah, simplifying
matters, I said, Yoasaki.Yeah. Even reading the book, it
(09:18):
took me a minute to get Yoashadown, like because the way it's spelled,
and yeah, Fulish spelling can bevery tricky, you know, So
I tried to make things as simpleas I could. In the in my
translation. Yeah, so back innineteen eighty three, this was just a
normal family. Yes, the twoparents, the daughter, and the grandfather
(09:43):
was living in this apartment the grandmother, the grandfather wasn't actually living with them,
okay, right, And the grandmotherhad recently died, yeah, the
previous year, in nineteen eighty two. And Joasha, who was thirty,
sheen at the times very upset becauseshe was close to her grandmother and this
(10:05):
made her very distraught. But otherwiseit was a totally ordinary Polish family.
The father was a plumber who hadsome kind of work in the steel mill.
His wife, Eva was a telephoneoperator some company, and Yasha was
sixth or seventh grade at the time. Yeah, and so just a normal
(10:28):
family, not looking for fame oranything like that, not at all,
just living life and trying to survivethe nineteen eighties pool and remember there was
martial law, still a communist systemin place, and life was very difficult
for the average family, you know, financially and otherwise. Yes, And
so Yasha is kind of on theverge of puberty and going through that.
(10:50):
She was in a stage of puberty, yeah, not the verge she was
into. According to what the booksaid. Anyway, Yeah, so on
ere of nineteen eighty three, allthis stuff started happening. It's kind of
the beginning of it. Yes,April, the night of April the fourth,
(11:11):
and morning of April fifth, quitesuddenly and unexpectedly of a violent psychokinetic
events started to happen. And that, you know, comprised of the first
chapter of the book how it started. And actually the girl herself was sleeping,
(11:33):
and the grandfather was awakened by theseflying objects, and he thought the
girl was playing a prank, butseeing that she was asleep, he became
very frightened. Obviously, you know, seeing objects smashing, well, he'd
actually see them smashing the world.They were hurtling so fast through the air
(11:54):
that no one could see them.They were just smashing and you know,
leaving fragments of the ass all overthe place. And the mother and you
know, Josh herself were awakened bythese tremendous bangs and crashes, and obviously
they were so frightened and mystify aboutwhat was going on. They ran upstairs
(12:15):
to see the neighbors. And theneighbors upstairs with the first witnesses to this
phenomenon that's how it all started,out of the blue without warning, although
the book does mention that a fewweeks before the actual psychokinesis, people noticed
(12:35):
that she, the teenager, washow she said, her fingers were sort
of crackling, you know, emittingcrackling noises, and they thought it was
due to static electricity, and nobodypaid much attention to it. But this
may have been the first sign ofthings to happen. Yeah. Yeah,
(12:58):
like you said, we're talking aboutyou know, communist Poland in the eighties
and martial law and so you know, and and also it's long before the
ghost TV shows and the Warrens werekind of around in the world. But
you know, in Poland, theyweren't really concerned about paranormal things I'm imagining
at that point, like you said, they're just trying to survive and live
day to day. But what Ifound fascinating is is that the police got
(13:22):
involved and witnessing themselves, and someof the town officials got involved. Yes,
the family obviously was strikened to deathof what was happening, and they
wanted people to confirm that they weren'thallucinating or playing a hoax, so they
called in the police and towent officialsand who at first were naturally skeptical.
(13:43):
Yeah, they thought that this familywas playing on hooks, trying to gain
some kind of you know, publicityfor financial reasons or whatever. But they
saw for themselves after posting you know, please in the apartment for a couple
of days and this was not ahoax. Were people were hallucinating that these
(14:09):
events are actually happening, and thephysical effects repealed that the apartment was battered
all over. So yeah, thatwas the first stage of this experience.
Yeah, and I found it interestingtoo that they actually the town actually brought
in like engineers and things to tryto explain. Yes, because they thought
(14:30):
that there might be a problem withthe construction of the building, that there
might be tracks the settling of thefoundation walls or underwater streams that might be
undermining the nation, but that wasruled out. They have to careful inspection
and the next step was to movethe family to a different apartment. This
(14:54):
originally happened in a town Sosnoviets,which is heavily industrialized part of Selesia and
southern Poland, as I mentioned,and the hope was that the change of
residence would stop this phenomenon whatever youwant to call it. Yeah, But
(15:15):
unfortunately, the effects, the strangedestructive effects, followed the girl wherever she
went, so it wasn't a matterof location. She obviously was causing some
sort of disturbance in the local gravitationalfield. Do you know how long it
was going on in that first apartmentbefore they moved them to the second.
(15:37):
I don't know the exact amount oftime. That's a good question. I
would think of two or three months, but I'm not actually absolutely sure in
that particular point. I know inthe book there's a lot of things that
happened. I know there was athey had, even though the family was
not particularly religious, they had apriest come in I guess to try to
exercise it or whatever, right,Yeah, but that failed as well.
(15:58):
So out of desperation, the familycontacted some people in the press, journalists
who began to cover the story.And that's how the authors of the book
found out about the case, andthey were disturbed by some of these sensational
items in the press. They wantedto do a very careful, meticulous study
(16:21):
of this whole case to see well, first of all, to rule out
any popes, and then if theevents actually were true to you know,
genuine, they wanted to find aspecialists who take an interest in it and
try to determine its cause. Yeah. And of course, like other cases
(16:45):
similar to this, like the InsulaPoltergeis and some others that I've that I've
dove into, it kind of broughtout some of the like psychics in others.
Yeah, there were sensation seekers,spiritualists, you know, curious walkers
who came to the apartment and harassedthe family. Uh. They authors point
(17:07):
out that a few centuries earlier,it's quite conceivable, but the girl would
have been burned at the state witchgrant. And and I'm sure that I'm
sure the family was horrified by this. I mean, they're being bombarded by
these spiritualists and psychics and media andall these other people, you know,
outside of their apartment, and somoving moving probably was kind of a blessing
(17:30):
a little bit too, right.The journalist Mark and Anna did try to
shield the family as much as possiblefrom these intrusive you know, guests and
uh onlookers, and they did pointout that certain extent they succeeded in doing
(17:51):
this. You know, they broughtin a several teams as specialists who tried
to shield the girl from unwanted publicity, and so well, it wasn't obviously,
it was a real concern for thefamily, Yeah, park from the
financial damage they suffered in the Polishinsurance companies did not reimburse them for damage
(18:15):
caused by paranormal forces, so itwas a real financial hardship. But when
they so, when they moved,this didn't this activity didn't stop obviously.
No, these events continued for sevenyears, from nineteen eighty three to nineteen
(18:37):
ninety in various forms. I meanthey changed. The book goes into that.
You know, it wasn't just onetype of phenomenon. There quite a
few different effects in different places.The case is unusual. It's not what
you would call an ordinary case ofouldergeist activity because it lasted for so long,
(18:59):
and and the girl managed channel iskinetic energy just at least to some
extent. She didn't have full controlover it, but on some occasions she
could channel it. That's, youknow, another unusual aspect for the matter.
Yeah, And some of the unusualstuff that I saw in the book
is when the objects were flying around, people wouldn't necessarily see them fly through
(19:22):
the air because they were going sofast, they would kind of see them
hit the wall, right. Imentioned that, you know when we talked
about the neighbors upstairs came down andwitnessed violent, you know, splintering of
glass on the wall. But theycouldn't actually see the flying objects because,
according to the authors, an objectthrown by hand, uh you know it
(19:45):
could did not have the same nearlythe same velocity as a psychokinetically propelled object,
Yeah, which is often invisible.That's another indication that something has a
power or what was going on.Yeah, And when the objects hit the
wall, some people were reported alsothat the sounds coming from that were louder
(20:06):
than they should have been too.Yes, Yes, sounded like an including
television tube. When let's say anordinary tumbler or a glass base smashed against
the wall, you know, ofcourse you'd hear a crash of some kind,
but not a tremendous explosion, youknow, as if a television tube
were suddenly shattered. Yeah. Andthen there are also reports of some objects
(20:32):
that were kind of flew like hovered, levitated slower and more deliberately. Yes,
yeah, like a cup of teawith hovered in the air without spilling
any liquid at all, you know, just travel in unusual trajectory through the
entire apartment. It was very bizarre. I didn't actually see that when I
(20:56):
went to Poland and met the growthtwice, but I did speak to couple
of eyewitnesses who you know, uhor you know uh present during these events.
Yeah, and pretty early, prettyearly on, there were some people
that were interested in experimenting on herand with her to figure out what's going
(21:22):
on. Yes, there were severalteams involved. Remember in communist here Poland,
such paranormal occurrences were not accepted,where they were ridiculed or completely ignored,
And it took a lot of couragefor a specialist physicians, physicists,
(21:42):
metallurgists, other experts to come forwardand volunteer to study this case. You
know, they did it at riskof their reputation and even their careers.
And also and there was no fundingfrom anybody else either, so they were
right exactly. I mean, youknow, no, no, that's a
(22:03):
difficulty even now in western countries toobtain funding for this type of study.
I mean, it's still marginalized,still ridiculed, even though there's an abundance
of proof over many decades. Suchthings really occur, and people have these
abilities, but you know, there'sa dark science yields his positions very reluctantly.
(22:26):
Yeah. Yeah, What I soundsfascinating too, is that it started
out with the like what we callpoltergeist activity, and then once they started
doing the experiments with her, shekind of got, like you said,
some control over part of it,with the psychokinesis kind of kicked in with
the Yes, that's one of theunusual aspects of the case. In normal
(22:48):
public cases, the subject is completelyhelpless, completely the victims of these violent
kinetic effects. Us she was ableto channel this energy, and you know,
the mystery is why this teenage girldeveloped these powers and other people didn't.
(23:12):
Well, we can go into thismatter a little further doing our discussion,
but there are a certain branch ofparanormal research, as their spiritualists,
who ascribe all these events to hauntings, you know, supernatural forces, entities,
whatever you want to call them,that somehow invade the physical plane and
(23:37):
create these effects. But that doesn'texplain how this girl is able to channel
the energy into bending spoons, howshe developed telepathic abilities, I mean,
did her dead grandmother descend from somehigher plane to start bending spoons for this
girl, or you know, takingtelepathic testa, you know, the hypothesis,
(24:02):
although it sounds very tempting, itdoesn't account for everything that is occurring.
Now we can talk about that,you know, but there's no indication
that she was into any kind ofwitch gray for the family was there's no,
not at all, not at all. No. In fact, she
showed no interest in such things atall. The authors gave her a few
(24:23):
books, it's mentioned, you know, in their account, they tried to
interest her in paranormal research. Youknow, maybe she would be able to
explain certain things with typical young teenagereal she just was interested in other things.
She didn't delve into paranormal research.And no indication that she was involved
(24:47):
with sorcery or wija boards or anysuch thing. You know. It was
a typical Catholic family in Poland thatyou know, abhorred such you know,
any kind and uh, dabbling inthe supernatural, you know, considered evil,
witch creating, right, you know, demonic. Yeah, and so
it would make more sense to meif if they were like the family was
(25:10):
into that, or she was intothat, you know, like what the
what the spiritualists are saying that youknow, it's something ethereal from another plane
or you know, spirit or something. Okay, well, if you're if
if she was into conjuring or something, that would make more sense that she's
controlling this. But it doesn't makeany sense to me that, you know,
her dad grandmother would just all ofa sudden come back and start all
of his chaots, you know aroundwell, you know, I don't know
(25:33):
if I sent you a review bythis paranormal researcher in Australia, Rob Tilly,
Did I send you his review injournal? Yeah, Australian journal how
Psychology, and you read it.He's a strict spiritualist. He said,
without justification, that somehow Yolasha accesswhat he called a higher level of higher
(25:56):
dimension of consciousness, just creating anopen for some kind of entity to come
through that explained everything, and therefore, if a medium had been called in
to expel this entity, there wouldhave been no further hold guy's activity,
and therefore there would have been nobook. But he presented absolutely no evidence
(26:22):
that this girl supposed well eccess somevague higher dimension of consciousness whatever, that
means. And even if that weretrue, did it start this entity start
bending spoons for her? Did it'ttake telepathy test prink? You know?
In other words, trying to explainone mysterious phenomenon by another mysterious, unexplained
(26:48):
phenomenon doesn't resolve the whole issue.His hypothesis may be right, but it
may or may not be right,but he doesn't present any evidence to back
it up. I'd see no reasonwhy she stepped his explanation rather than the
explanations of the teams of specialists whostudied her intensively under laboratory conditions for forty
(27:11):
months. Right. You know,there's a real division in the powers normal
research community regarding this, and thisstill is you know. Yeah, one
of the things for me that pointsyou know, away from something like that
is the actual physical evidence that theysaw because when this started, right in
doing this, she had weird flulike symptoms and her temperture would spy,
(27:33):
yes, and things with static andelectricity in surrounding her, but she would
also get physically ill sometimes when thestuff happened. Oh yes, she was
injured many times by flying objects,you know, shattered glass, and well,
(27:55):
they teams of specialists who investigated hercase determined that her physical organism have
certain anomalies, you know, thefunctioning of her brain hemispheres. There's certain
patterns of energy in her fingertips andtoes that may have indicated some sort of
unusual hormonal operations that could have affectedthe gravity around her. But again that
(28:26):
explanation falls short in some ways.You know, teenagers go through puberty,
many of them have emotional upheavals.Why did this girl in particular create this
tremendous psychokinetic activity, you know,why not other teenage I mean, if
(28:47):
it were just a matter of hormonalimbalance and emotional upset interacting in such a
way to create these violent kinetic effects, why aren't other teenagers, universally,
right, more common occurrent I experiencingthe same problem. You know. You
know, that's what makes the caseso fascinating because all these hypotheses, but
(29:11):
none of them fully explains. Youknow, we're in the same position now,
forty years later that we were thatthe Polish scientists were, you know
in the nineteen eighty yeah, yeah, and the fact that they had so
many disciplines come in, you know, to study her as well from different
points of view and different even I'msure all these people had, you know,
(29:33):
different religious beliefs and things as well, and so you know, right
to have it from all these differentpoints of view, and all these people
saying, oh, she's really doingthis, you know, and not discaratying
her or discounting her and finding itfascinating. Well, you know, to
summarize the matter is as possible,I believe that sweet possibilities. Either the
(30:00):
girl and her family and all ofher associates or classmates or teachers, their
eyewitnesses, all of you know,the police officials, the town, the
municipal bodies. Either they were engagedin some sort of gigantic collusion, you
know, to perpetuate a hoax,or the girl in some way was able
(30:21):
to induce a mass hypnosis, createa mass delusion around her for seven years
and trick all these trained observers,nurses, physicians, you know, physicists,
psychologists, She was able to hoodwinkthem in some way. And the
question is, if that's true,how in the world was it, you
(30:45):
know, an ordinary thirteen, fourteen, fifteen year old girl able to do
this over a period of seven years. Third possibility, these events were actually
happening. These observers were not inthe state of delusion. They were not
perpetrating the hooks. I consider thethird possibility to be the most likely one,
(31:06):
right, It's the most plausible explanationthat I can think of. Yeah,
and a lot of people, likeyou know, you talk about bending
spoons, and people think about yourat geller and even some magicians being able
to do that. But some ofthe things she was doing with these big
giant cables and twisting down that youcouldn't do it. I saw them,
and I tried to unbend some ofthem. Yeah. When I visit her
(31:26):
family twice in nineteen eighty nine,nineteen ninety, there were all these objects
laid out on the cocktail table inthe living room, and there were these
massive cables. They were bent likepretzels, the strongest, you know.
I I tried unbending them, youknow, I mean it was hopeless.
(31:48):
Yeah. And there was also aI say this like a craziness that happened
in a hospital room. Oh,yes, that was the most spectacular eventable
she well doctor again. Goadula isa surgeon who took charge of the research
when he washed his abilities. Hebrought her to a sanitarium for the study
(32:15):
and you know, some rest forher so she could get away from the
you know counts people harassing her.And she wanted to show up well,
being a teenage girl, she wantedto show off her abilities, you know,
that convinced people that she wasn't perpetratinghoops. So in her rooms,
(32:38):
over period of something like twenty seconds, she demolished a sink, you know,
twisted it out of the wall andthe room was totally demolished for this
girl. How any tools accomplish theseyou know feats, So that most spectacular
(33:04):
occurrence seven years that she was studied. Yeah, and doctor Godoula he kind
of protected her in a way,yes, Yes, very compassionate man who
had the courage to speak out despitethe disapproval of the authorities and the medical
and scientific establishment. He thought thiscase was genuine and deserved a serious study.
(33:34):
He tried to shelter the girls asmuch as power. Yes, And
so you said they studied her forforty months, and like we were saying,
it's kind of their all on theirown don and that's the risk of
their own reputations and things like that. All these different doctors and scientists did
any of them. I know someof them came to conclusions, but I
(33:55):
guess less, probably more than baffledthan anything, and probably frustrated that they
couldn't forget what was going on.And the forty the reason the forty months
because they kind of it kind offizzled out and they ran out of funding
and money and lack of financing.That's basically it. They did not have
the sophisticated equipment for financing to continuethis. Yeah, depthor it leads me
(34:19):
a question too. If you tookthis case and put it now something like
this happening, you know, Iwonder if we could find out more because
you know, the jumping technology andtesting and things like that. I wonder
if we could figure it out more, especially with like our physical symptoms.
We know a lot more about thebody in medicine of course in the past,
(34:40):
you know, thirty some years.And yeah, that was that's one
question that would because we haven't reallyhad a case. Well, you know,
that's an excellent question. I shouldemphasize that I'm only a translator.
My task was to bring this caseto contention, and I think I succeeded
too large extent. But I'm nota scientist by profession, nor am I
(35:06):
a professional paranormal researcher. I havea strong interest in certain subjects, so
regretfully I can't answer your question.My great grand is that forty years ago,
when I first started translating the book, I wasn't able to attract attention.
I didn't have the connections to bringmy task to fruition at the time.
(35:32):
But well, in nineteen eighty threeI found the publisher who's willing to
give me a chance and Anomalous Booksin Virginia. Patrick Letchi is the owner,
and he was facious enough to readthe manuscript and he thought it's worthy
(35:52):
of publication. My efforts back inteen eighties in nineteen nineties not successful.
Your question is certainly justified, andI wish I could answer it. I
don't know what supisticated techniques we havenow, but we're available to scientists forty
(36:13):
years ago. It's a good question. Yeah, yeah, and now we
have also we have like you know, parapsychology is the actual doctor degree and
some yeah, some universities do offeradvanced you know degrees at the truth.
A couple in England, I thinka University of Nottingham if I'm not mistaken,
and there's some division in the Universityof London. Yeah, I just
(36:36):
actually actually had doctor Callum Cooper,who is a parapsychologist and he teaches that
in Nottingham. I came across hisname. I think I even sent him
an article about the case months monthsago, but I never heard back from
them. Yeah, it's one ofthose things, like you know, with
everything in the paranormal. I've beendoing this for for over twenty years,
(36:57):
and with everything in the paranormal,when you think you have a question answered
with any of this phenomena, there'sa thousand more questions, and so it's
the same with this case. Ijust find it. I find it interesting
because back in the eighties, youknow, you had this case, and
I think in the late seventies youhad to infield poltergeist and there have been
other poltergeist cases, but here inlike you know, in the past twenty
(37:20):
years, there's not really been anythat stand out like these cases do,
or nobody's discovered them to go inand study them. Well, let me
let me interject something. I thinkit's quite possible that not only poltergeist activity,
but many other paranormal phenomena are occurringconstantly throughout the world, but because
(37:43):
of language barriers and lack of interestin the part of the orthodox scientific or
medical community, we never hear aboutthat. Remember it took me thirty four
years to get this book published,you know, and I'm a native English
speak How difficult would it be forsomeone, let's say in Burma or I
(38:05):
don't know, Mozambique, Korea,who may be experienced even more remarkable events
to bring this to public attention,you know, To translate a book in
the hope of attracting public attention isvery It's an arduous task. Take my
own experience as a key, youknow, as a as a graphic sample.
(38:28):
So what you just said may beright. But on the other hand,
because of the barriers that exist,public awareness just may not be exposed
to this knowledge. It's a tremendousshame, you know, all this potential
knowledge just going down to drain.It makes me very It's very sad.
(38:52):
Yeah, yeah, I'm talking aboutthis on the show a lot too.
I think in general, people likethings in boxes because I think that he'll
some psychologically to understand. I thinkthey understand the world and so then when
you get into this type of stuffthat there's no understanding, even you know,
scientists who have studied this stuff don'tunderstand it and can't explain it.
I think it scares people as well. So I think that's another barrier as
(39:15):
well to these types of things andstudying them more in science, getting more
into the paranormal. Well, tome, I'll tell you from my personal
observation, inertia is the greatest forcein human behavior. Inertia and denials reality,
you know, when it's painful ordistressing or and it's a tremendous barrier
(39:38):
to knowledge in general. Yeah,I've come across that I live in I
grew up, and I've looked atmy whole life outside of Nashville, kind
of in the Bible Belt. Youknow, I've been told my whole life
dealing with the paranormal because I've doneit for so long that it's all demons,
that's what you know, the uberreligious people believe, and so you
know, they don't want a partof it because I think it's all demonic,
(39:59):
and they're that through their leans ofreligion, not that all of this
could be just a natural part ofour world. That we just don't don't
see and don't experience, you know, And I think it's part of us
because it scares them too, likewe're talking about and they're in denial of
it in a way as well.Well. I completely agree with you.
I'm an agnostic, which means thatI'm flexible and open minded in regard to
(40:25):
things that I can't explain personally.My position is that I have five senses
which are limited scope, and Ican't deny that what happens outside the limit
five senses may actually exist. Wejust don't perceive them because of are ingrained
(40:47):
limitations denial reality. But you know, tipicate you've heard of education. Of
course, this uneducated guy in Kentucky, who ever at sixth grade, and
yet he went into these unusual tranceswhere he could speak ancient languages and he
had never studied. What is therational explanation for that? There is not,
(41:13):
you know, give you deny itout of fear and ignorance. Where
you have to realize that there arecertain aspects of reality that we still don't
understand. He's not the only suchcase, believe he han't heard quite a
few others, to my knowledge oflanguages and privileged to be able to read
accounts about people in other countries whohave similar abilities, but they're not known
(41:37):
in the Western world because language barriers. They actually have a museum in Hawkinsville,
Kentucky, where he lived, andin a museum out of his home,
and it's about an hour and ahalf for me. Oh, I
didn't know that. Of course,I'm familiar with Atlantic University where they keep
full as font you know, hisreadings are visited there once, but I
(41:58):
didn't know they made a museum outof a home. Yeah, yeah,
but yeah, this entire paranorm worldis pretty interesting. That's why I love
talking to people like you and gettingyou know, these different cases from all
around the world to show that,you know, because you know, we
watched like the in America, wewatched the ghost shows, and most of
the time they're just going to placesin the United States and you're not really
(42:21):
seeing the phenomenon around the world.And so that's one of the things I
love about doing the podcast here isI can go, you know, connect
with somebody through the internet, youknow, halfway around the world and talk
to them about what's going on intheir part of the world and see how
similar the paranormal is across the worldand the beliefs and the things that are
going on, but also some extraordinarycases like this one from Poland. You
(42:42):
know. Yes, language barriers area very powerful impediment. Yeah, I'm
glad that I was able to contributea little bit of insights into this phenomenon
translation, but it was a veryhardress task. It took a year out
(43:04):
of my life. Yeah, andnot everybody wants to do that. Yeah.
So now the only question is,let's go back to what you're talking
about in the very beginning, thatyou actually went and got to meet her
and meet her family, you watchher family and her and actually see some
of this stuff firsthand. Yes,I went there first, as I mentioned
before the fall of nineteen eighty nine, and the family lived in a very
(43:30):
shabby apartment block, you know,Soviet type architecture, concrete stole and their
apartners battered. Yeah, in thedense furniture. And the girl struck me
as just ordinary teenage girl and nothingdemonic about her. She had very piercing
(43:53):
eyes. That was a remarkable featureabout her. Otherwise say she different in
any way, you know, ordinarykids of her age. She showed me
various objects and she had then overthe years, including these massive cables.
(44:13):
And I spoke to a couple offriends who eyewitnesses, and it turns out
that Duasha and I got along quitewell because I could speak polition. She
was kind enough to bend a spoonfor me right before my eyes, and
I watched her. It took hera couple of minutes to bend this stainless
(44:34):
steel spoon and started to droop justlike a wilting flower. And she did
it the second time in the summerof nineteen ninety when I visited her family
again along with the co authors.She'd been a second spoon for me,
and I've kept both of them assouvenirs. That's the only paranormal experience in
(44:57):
my life. Yeah, that's prettypretty good one I have. Though unfortunately
I didn't see any flying objects,which is just as well, because I
I want it might have broken myeads. It was not a fun thing,
ye believe me. Yeah. Theother thing that I found fascinating the
book is that these things not onlyhappened at home and like in the clinical
(45:20):
setting when they were studying her,but also happened at school and her teachers.
Okay, her teachers were amazingly understandingand tried to help her with this.
Yes, she was lucky in thatregard. They did try to shelter
her and persuade the other students thatYewasha's abilities, while unusual, were not
(45:42):
demonic. Yeah, you know,we're not something to be feared. They
were just unexplained. Yeah, andher classmates gradually came to accept her,
and we're even excited than when youknow, scientists came to visit her and
to start the test in the school. Very proud of her. So this
kind of the case kind of cutsoff in nineteen ninety as far as the
(46:05):
book goes, Well, the bookactually stops around nineteen. The book was
written in nineteen eighty nine, andwhen I visited her in nineteen eighty nine,
nineteen ninety, the events, accordingto eyewitnesses still happened. Yeah,
but sometime after I left, thephenomenon for no understood reason, just stopped.
(46:27):
Yeah, and you know there's noexplanation for that. I really started
unexpectedly and ended justice unexpectedly. Yeah. Seven years. Wow. Of course,
this question is something I know everybody'sgoing to know. Do you know
what happened to Yuasha. Yes,well, a few details. She went
(46:47):
to nursing school, graduated, gota job in a local hospital, she
got married and had two kids.For some time she kept in contact with
doctor, who, as we mentioned, was head of research, but then
all trace sort of vanished. Herparents passed away. I don't know when.
(47:10):
My suspicion is that she might havegone abroad because back in the nineteen
nineties and Poland was a very economicallydepressive place and lots of specialists in nursing's
physicians. I I just emigrated tofind better living, especially if they had
(47:30):
a family. Yeah, So that'smy suspicion. But I really have either
I or the author's the book,or anyone else knows her current whereabouts.
And you know, after all theattention that she got for so long,
I mean, you know, Icould only imagine wanting to just state into
(47:52):
obscurity, you know, especially withher. You know, she has two
kids, and obviously she probably doesn'twant them to be the subject of sensationalist
intruders. Yeah, the way shewas, so I can understand, Brian,
Yeah, she would want to remainyou know, anonymous. Yeah,
(48:13):
Yeah, and I think it'd beinteresting for her to go back and explain
to her kids, this book isabout me, you know what I'm saying,
once they got old enough and thishappened to me, and her kids,
you know, learning about that.Well, who knows, maybe maybe
one day the book will come toher attention and she'll emerge from the shadows
and know, yeah, get herlife story. But you know, so
(48:35):
far not a pet. Yeah,well you can think, I mean,
growing up under the microscope of themedia and you know, scientists poking and
prodding you for so long. Yeah, I would just be understandable to say,
you know, I just want tobe a normal person, a normal
family. You know. She wouldbe fifty three years old, yeah,
(48:58):
actually fifty four, fifty four,yeah, thirteen to fifty four. Yeah.
Yeah. It's a fascinating case.And I'm glad that you translated it
and finally got it out out sopeople could talk about it. And I've
really yeah, and I really enjoyedthe book and reading it, and I've
enjoyed our conversation today. I wantto thank you so much for coming on
(49:21):
and talking about it. It's beena great pleasure. And the book is
available to purchase on Amazon and Kindle, and I would tell everybody to go
out and buy the book and readabout this amazing case. It's called The
Elusive Force, translated by Joel Stern. It's a wonderful book and a fascinating
case. And thank you for therecommendation. Again, I respondor to be
(49:45):
your guest. Yeah, I thinkthat's all I want people to go.
I don't want to give too muchaway, you know, I kind of
want to hit some of the highlights. I want people to go out and
read the book because there's so muchmore in the book about the them,
you know, scientifically doing studies withher and some of the telepathic things,
and and a lot more in depthabout the things that she could do and
(50:06):
the things that she did. Andwe just kind of hit the highlights and
you know, the cliff notes ofthe story. But yeah, I want
people to go out and read thebook and check it out, to get
in depth into the case because it'svery fascinating and there's so much that we
left out here today. Well,as I said, the case continued over
a period of seven years, andthere was a lot involved, a lot
(50:28):
of people, Yeah, devoted seriouseffort and time and at least to me,
they proved the existence. Yeah,a certain type of reality that we're
not no normally aware of, butnonetheless exist. We can deny it,
we can ignore it, we canridicule it, but that doesn't Yeah,
(50:51):
and I think this case should beright up there in the paranormal with then
sort of Poltergeist and some of theothers that are well known, just because
this is to me, one ofthe most in depth studied cases of poltergeis
and psychokinesis that I've ever come across. But thank you so much Joel for
coming on the show today. Ireally enjoyed the conversation, really enjoyed the
book. And everybody go out andpick up a copy of The Elusive Force
(51:14):
by Joel Stern, translated by JoelStern, and send me a messager or
send an email to Joel letting usknow what you think, and also leave
a review on Amazon. It helpsget the books out there for more people
to read them. Thank you again, and I look forward to hearing from
your listeners. Yeah, it wasa pleasure. Take care all right,
(51:34):
everybody, y'all stay safe out there. We'll see you next time. Thank
you for listening to The Unseen ParanormalJoin me next Wednesday with a brand new
guest, and please rate, review, share, subscribe on Apple, Spotify,
or wherever you're listening right now.This helps more people discover the show.
You can connect with me over onFacebook, Instagram, Twitter, or
(51:55):
join us in the Unseen Paranormal Loungegroup on Facebook. Next time, remember
some of the scariest things burn seedweb co Judy that I can't bear your
(52:22):
it's you pass, fell the sideas a Viking hide side w
Join us as we dive into thehistory hauntings and high strangers of the world
to try to better understand the paranormal. I will be your guide. I
am paranormal researcher and investigator Eric FreemanSimms. Welcome to the Unseen Paranormal Podcast.
(00:28):
Hey everybody, Welcome back to theUnseen parent Normal. Thank you for
tuning in today. Thank you forlistening. I am still getting over the
flu from last week, as youcan kind of hear him a little stopped
up, but other than that,I'm doing well. Coming very close.
I know, I tease y'all awhile back with some big things going on,
coming very close to that, comingto fruition. I don't want to
(00:49):
say anything because I don't want tojinx it, but as soon as I
can then I won't make that announcement. But very excited about things coming up
with the Unseen Paranormal, on thebrand and all that stuff. Also very
excited about Strangely Haunted. That isthe new docuseries that I am doing with
my good friend mister Austin Lawrence.And if you haven't checked it out yet,
(01:11):
go check it out on YouTube.Strangely Haunted. It's a docu series
where we investigate different locations and we'retrying to go to locations that maybe you've
never heard of and don't get reallya lot of you know, TV time
or press, and also that havea fascinating history and are fascinating looking,
and so, you know, wealso want to bring you true paranoral investigations.
(01:34):
There's so much bullshit out there onYouTube of people faking things and then
claiming they're not. They're just youknow, they should just come out and
say that they're entertainers and it's justfor entertainment. That's just a big thing
in the paranormal right now, andpeople want to yell skin walker and demonic
and all these buzzwords, and we'renot doing any of that. We're doing
real paranorm investigations without all the bellsand whistles and the flashy lights and things,
(01:57):
because most of that stuff doesn't reallywork. You can't prove that you're
communicating with spirits through a lot ofthat stuff. It's just they bring it
on TV because it's flashing and keepyour attention the flashing lights and the beeping
sounds and all that stuff. Sowe're also trying some new stuff that we
may or may not prove that youknow, we're getting activity with but we
try to go back to the basicswith you know, video and audio mainly
(02:22):
and trying to capture that stuff thatwe can't explain. We end up debunking
ourselves more often than not, andthat's part of the process. But yeah,
if you haven't checked out Strangely Haunted, please go check that out on
YouTube and hit that subscribe button,that light button. And I want to
say thank you to everybody who's checkedit out. So far, we have
almost thirteen thousand views on the firstvideo and one hundred and seventy seven lights,
(02:46):
which is insane. We never expectedto have that many views on our
very first video. The second videois coming out this Friday, which is
April nineteenth. We are live premieringit with me and Austin in the chat
room. We're on YouTube, soyou can come and jump in the chatroom
and ask us questions and chat withus about the video. And this is
(03:07):
part one of us in Franklin,Kentucky. Part two at the Simpson kind
of Archives of the Museum will beout next Friday, so come check it
out. We're really proud of it, and I promise you that this second
video is way better quality than thefirst one. We've we've figured out a
lot of the kinks and stuff andit's a learning experience, but also working
(03:29):
together with somebody that you've never filmedwith before or investigated with before, you
gotta work on those kings. Sohopefully I'll enjoy it. We're enjoying doing
it, and we'll continue to doit. We've got plenty of other locations
coming up that we're gonna be filmingthat, including this weekend, we're gonna
head to Brushy Mountain in Petros,Tennessee to do a big documentary video out
(03:50):
there, do an investigation and thehistory and the hauntings of it, So
tune in for that, stay tunedfor that coming up in May. And
then we got some other cool,exciting locations for you well coming up over
the next few months. So we'regonna try to put out a at least
one video a month and keep itgoing. So if you want to see
real paranlem investigating and hopefully we're entertainingeven when stuff is not happening, Yeah,
(04:13):
go check out Stranger hont It andsubscribe. I am done ranting for
the day. I'll be back withthe mental health talks here soon. I
just like I said, I'm stilltrying to get her flu and get good
and healthy for this weekend's investigation.So y'all enjoyed the show. Today we
have mister Joel Stern. We weretalking about a case in Poland from the
nineteen eighties of a girl named Yoashawho had apparently had poltergeist in psychokinetic abilities
(04:41):
and she was actually studied by scientists. And why this case is not more
widely known, I don't know.Joel Stern is just the He's not the
author of the book. He translatedthe book from Polish into English and he
actually got to meet Yoasha, thegirl that could use her mind to move
things and had all this activity goingon to run a very fascinating case.
So sit back, relax and enjoythe episode. We'll talk to you next
(05:04):
time. Have a good day.Hey, Joel, welcome to the show.
Thank you for joining us today.Well, I'm honored to be your
guest. Yeah, I had neverheard this case, and you emailed me
about your book The Elusive Force comingout and about the book that you translated.
We'll get more into that and it'sa really interesting case of poltergeist and
psychokinesis and scientific study of it.So I found it really fascinating. But
(05:30):
in the book you translated the book. You did not write the book.
It actually comes from two journalists fromPoland, where the story takes place,
right. So what is your backgroundand how did you get involved with translating
the book into English. Well,it started in nineteen eighty eight. I
was working as a staff translator fromSlavic languages at the State Department in Washington.
(05:55):
I started there in nineteen eighty fiveand in the mid eighties I met
this Polish couple. They emigrated fromWarsaw to the United States. The husband
was a bio energy therapist, whichis kind of paranormal in himself. He
could, you know, read people'sof aura diagnose their physical conditions, and
(06:16):
the wife was a journalist. Theyintroduced me to this book, The Elusive
Force, which had never been translatedinto English. It was about this really
extraordinary case of psychokinesis, telepathy andpoldergeist activity. And the wife of English
(06:40):
name is Margaret gave me the bookto read and I was fascinated by the
case, and it wasn't just adry scientific study. I think it had
real human interest, but we cango into that later. During the discussion,
in any case, Margaret suggested thatif I liked the book so much
thought it had Marrit, that Ishould consider translating it, and I agreed.
(07:08):
She told me that there was apublisher in the United States who might
be interested in bringing it out.Unfortunately that proved to be a false claim,
but we'll leave that aside for themoment. I did translate the book
starting and I think it was eitherDecember or January nineteen eighty nine, and
(07:28):
it took me about eight or ninemonths. I finished in the summer of
nineteen eighty nine, so that's basicallyhow I found out about the case.
I had never heard about it before. It was almost totally unknown in the
United States, partly known outside ofPoland except for a few sensationalist stories that
(07:48):
really didn't merit, you know,any serious attention. And it so happened
that since I spoke Polish got intouch with the authors and morsaw On Schitzka
and Monica Mushko. They invited meto come visit them and also pay a
(08:09):
visit to the girl and her family. In southern Poland, and I took
up the author in October of nineteeneighty nine and went to Poland for the
second time, and I met theauthors and they were gracious enough to drive
me all the way down to thetown of Chelaje, which is in Silesia,
(08:33):
southern Poland year the Czech border,and that's my first encounter with this
phenomenon occurred. Yeah, I wantto I want to get into that later
because that's kind of because because ittook you so long to get the book
published. Oh yes, wow,that's kind of the end of the story.
(08:54):
We need to go back to thebeginning when all this started. And
you're saying it took place in Poland, and the girl's name was Joasha Joasha
Gaeski. Well in Polish would begou yes ska. But I don't expect
English either to have a knowledge ofPolish gender distinctions. So yeah, simplifying
matters, I said, Yoasaki.Yeah. Even reading the book, it
(09:18):
took me a minute to get Yoashadown, like because the way it's spelled,
and yeah, Fulish spelling can bevery tricky, you know, So
I tried to make things as simpleas I could. In the in my
translation. Yeah, so back innineteen eighty three, this was just a
normal family. Yes, the twoparents, the daughter, and the grandfather
(09:43):
was living in this apartment the grandmother, the grandfather wasn't actually living with them,
okay, right, And the grandmotherhad recently died, yeah, the
previous year, in nineteen eighty two. And Joasha, who was thirty,
sheen at the times very upset becauseshe was close to her grandmother and this
(10:05):
made her very distraught. But otherwiseit was a totally ordinary Polish family.
The father was a plumber who hadsome kind of work in the steel mill.
His wife, Eva was a telephoneoperator some company, and Yasha was
sixth or seventh grade at the time. Yeah, and so just a normal
(10:28):
family, not looking for fame oranything like that, not at all,
just living life and trying to survivethe nineteen eighties pool and remember there was
martial law, still a communist systemin place, and life was very difficult
for the average family, you know, financially and otherwise. Yes, And
so Yasha is kind of on theverge of puberty and going through that.
(10:50):
She was in a stage of puberty, yeah, not the verge she was
into. According to what the booksaid. Anyway, Yeah, so on
ere of nineteen eighty three, allthis stuff started happening. It's kind of
the beginning of it. Yes,April, the night of April the fourth,
(11:11):
and morning of April fifth, quitesuddenly and unexpectedly of a violent psychokinetic
events started to happen. And that, you know, comprised of the first
chapter of the book how it started. And actually the girl herself was sleeping,
(11:33):
and the grandfather was awakened by theseflying objects, and he thought the
girl was playing a prank, butseeing that she was asleep, he became
very frightened. Obviously, you know, seeing objects smashing, well, he'd
actually see them smashing the world.They were hurtling so fast through the air
(11:54):
that no one could see them.They were just smashing and you know,
leaving fragments of the ass all overthe place. And the mother and you
know, Josh herself were awakened bythese tremendous bangs and crashes, and obviously
they were so frightened and mystify aboutwhat was going on. They ran upstairs
(12:15):
to see the neighbors. And theneighbors upstairs with the first witnesses to this
phenomenon that's how it all started,out of the blue without warning, although
the book does mention that a fewweeks before the actual psychokinesis, people noticed
(12:35):
that she, the teenager, washow she said, her fingers were sort
of crackling, you know, emittingcrackling noises, and they thought it was
due to static electricity, and nobodypaid much attention to it. But this
may have been the first sign ofthings to happen. Yeah. Yeah,
(12:58):
like you said, we're talking aboutyou know, communist Poland in the eighties
and martial law and so you know, and and also it's long before the
ghost TV shows and the Warrens werekind of around in the world. But
you know, in Poland, theyweren't really concerned about paranormal things I'm imagining
at that point, like you said, they're just trying to survive and live
day to day. But what Ifound fascinating is is that the police got
(13:22):
involved and witnessing themselves, and someof the town officials got involved. Yes,
the family obviously was strikened to deathof what was happening, and they
wanted people to confirm that they weren'thallucinating or playing a hoax, so they
called in the police and towent officialsand who at first were naturally skeptical.
(13:43):
Yeah, they thought that this familywas playing on hooks, trying to gain
some kind of you know, publicityfor financial reasons or whatever. But they
saw for themselves after posting you know, please in the apartment for a couple
of days and this was not ahoax. Were people were hallucinating that these
(14:09):
events are actually happening, and thephysical effects repealed that the apartment was battered
all over. So yeah, thatwas the first stage of this experience.
Yeah, and I found it interestingtoo that they actually the town actually brought
in like engineers and things to tryto explain. Yes, because they thought
(14:30):
that there might be a problem withthe construction of the building, that there
might be tracks the settling of thefoundation walls or underwater streams that might be
undermining the nation, but that wasruled out. They have to careful inspection
and the next step was to movethe family to a different apartment. This
(14:54):
originally happened in a town Sosnoviets,which is heavily industrialized part of Selesia and
southern Poland, as I mentioned,and the hope was that the change of
residence would stop this phenomenon whatever youwant to call it. Yeah, But
(15:15):
unfortunately, the effects, the strangedestructive effects, followed the girl wherever she
went, so it wasn't a matterof location. She obviously was causing some
sort of disturbance in the local gravitationalfield. Do you know how long it
was going on in that first apartmentbefore they moved them to the second.
(15:37):
I don't know the exact amount oftime. That's a good question. I
would think of two or three months, but I'm not actually absolutely sure in
that particular point. I know inthe book there's a lot of things that
happened. I know there was athey had, even though the family was
not particularly religious, they had apriest come in I guess to try to
exercise it or whatever, right,Yeah, but that failed as well.
(15:58):
So out of desperation, the familycontacted some people in the press, journalists
who began to cover the story.And that's how the authors of the book
found out about the case, andthey were disturbed by some of these sensational
items in the press. They wantedto do a very careful, meticulous study
(16:21):
of this whole case to see well, first of all, to rule out
any popes, and then if theevents actually were true to you know,
genuine, they wanted to find aspecialists who take an interest in it and
try to determine its cause. Yeah. And of course, like other cases
(16:45):
similar to this, like the InsulaPoltergeis and some others that I've that I've
dove into, it kind of broughtout some of the like psychics in others.
Yeah, there were sensation seekers,spiritualists, you know, curious walkers
who came to the apartment and harassedthe family. Uh. They authors point
(17:07):
out that a few centuries earlier,it's quite conceivable, but the girl would
have been burned at the state witchgrant. And and I'm sure that I'm
sure the family was horrified by this. I mean, they're being bombarded by
these spiritualists and psychics and media andall these other people, you know,
outside of their apartment, and somoving moving probably was kind of a blessing
(17:30):
a little bit too, right.The journalist Mark and Anna did try to
shield the family as much as possiblefrom these intrusive you know, guests and
uh onlookers, and they did pointout that certain extent they succeeded in doing
(17:51):
this. You know, they broughtin a several teams as specialists who tried
to shield the girl from unwanted publicity, and so well, it wasn't obviously,
it was a real concern for thefamily, Yeah, park from the
financial damage they suffered in the Polishinsurance companies did not reimburse them for damage
(18:15):
caused by paranormal forces, so itwas a real financial hardship. But when
they so, when they moved,this didn't this activity didn't stop obviously.
No, these events continued for sevenyears, from nineteen eighty three to nineteen
(18:37):
ninety in various forms. I meanthey changed. The book goes into that.
You know, it wasn't just onetype of phenomenon. There quite a
few different effects in different places.The case is unusual. It's not what
you would call an ordinary case ofouldergeist activity because it lasted for so long,
(18:59):
and and the girl managed channel iskinetic energy just at least to some
extent. She didn't have full controlover it, but on some occasions she
could channel it. That's, youknow, another unusual aspect for the matter.
Yeah, And some of the unusualstuff that I saw in the book
is when the objects were flying around, people wouldn't necessarily see them fly through
(19:22):
the air because they were going sofast, they would kind of see them
hit the wall, right. Imentioned that, you know when we talked
about the neighbors upstairs came down andwitnessed violent, you know, splintering of
glass on the wall. But theycouldn't actually see the flying objects because,
according to the authors, an objectthrown by hand, uh you know it
(19:45):
could did not have the same nearlythe same velocity as a psychokinetically propelled object,
Yeah, which is often invisible.That's another indication that something has a
power or what was going on.Yeah, And when the objects hit the
wall, some people were reported alsothat the sounds coming from that were louder
(20:06):
than they should have been too.Yes, Yes, sounded like an including
television tube. When let's say anordinary tumbler or a glass base smashed against
the wall, you know, ofcourse you'd hear a crash of some kind,
but not a tremendous explosion, youknow, as if a television tube
were suddenly shattered. Yeah. Andthen there are also reports of some objects
(20:32):
that were kind of flew like hovered, levitated slower and more deliberately. Yes,
yeah, like a cup of teawith hovered in the air without spilling
any liquid at all, you know, just travel in unusual trajectory through the
entire apartment. It was very bizarre. I didn't actually see that when I
(20:56):
went to Poland and met the growthtwice, but I did speak to couple
of eyewitnesses who you know, uhor you know uh present during these events.
Yeah, and pretty early, prettyearly on, there were some people
that were interested in experimenting on herand with her to figure out what's going
(21:22):
on. Yes, there were severalteams involved. Remember in communist here Poland,
such paranormal occurrences were not accepted,where they were ridiculed or completely ignored,
And it took a lot of couragefor a specialist physicians, physicists,
(21:42):
metallurgists, other experts to come forwardand volunteer to study this case. You
know, they did it at riskof their reputation and even their careers.
And also and there was no fundingfrom anybody else either, so they were
right exactly. I mean, youknow, no, no, that's a
(22:03):
difficulty even now in western countries toobtain funding for this type of study.
I mean, it's still marginalized,still ridiculed, even though there's an abundance
of proof over many decades. Suchthings really occur, and people have these
abilities, but you know, there'sa dark science yields his positions very reluctantly.
(22:26):
Yeah. Yeah, What I soundsfascinating too, is that it started
out with the like what we callpoltergeist activity, and then once they started
doing the experiments with her, shekind of got, like you said,
some control over part of it,with the psychokinesis kind of kicked in with
the Yes, that's one of theunusual aspects of the case. In normal
(22:48):
public cases, the subject is completelyhelpless, completely the victims of these violent
kinetic effects. Us she was ableto channel this energy, and you know,
the mystery is why this teenage girldeveloped these powers and other people didn't.
(23:12):
Well, we can go into thismatter a little further doing our discussion,
but there are a certain branch ofparanormal research, as their spiritualists,
who ascribe all these events to hauntings, you know, supernatural forces, entities,
whatever you want to call them,that somehow invade the physical plane and
(23:37):
create these effects. But that doesn'texplain how this girl is able to channel
the energy into bending spoons, howshe developed telepathic abilities, I mean,
did her dead grandmother descend from somehigher plane to start bending spoons for this
girl, or you know, takingtelepathic testa, you know, the hypothesis,
(24:02):
although it sounds very tempting, itdoesn't account for everything that is occurring.
Now we can talk about that,you know, but there's no indication
that she was into any kind ofwitch gray for the family was there's no,
not at all, not at all. No. In fact, she
showed no interest in such things atall. The authors gave her a few
(24:23):
books, it's mentioned, you know, in their account, they tried to
interest her in paranormal research. Youknow, maybe she would be able to
explain certain things with typical young teenagereal she just was interested in other things.
She didn't delve into paranormal research.And no indication that she was involved
(24:47):
with sorcery or wija boards or anysuch thing. You know. It was
a typical Catholic family in Poland thatyou know, abhorred such you know,
any kind and uh, dabbling inthe supernatural, you know, considered evil,
witch creating, right, you know, demonic. Yeah, and so
it would make more sense to meif if they were like the family was
(25:10):
into that, or she was intothat, you know, like what the
what the spiritualists are saying that youknow, it's something ethereal from another plane
or you know, spirit or something. Okay, well, if you're if
if she was into conjuring or something, that would make more sense that she's
controlling this. But it doesn't makeany sense to me that, you know,
her dad grandmother would just all ofa sudden come back and start all
of his chaots, you know aroundwell, you know, I don't know
(25:33):
if I sent you a review bythis paranormal researcher in Australia, Rob Tilly,
Did I send you his review injournal? Yeah, Australian journal how
Psychology, and you read it.He's a strict spiritualist. He said,
without justification, that somehow Yolasha accesswhat he called a higher level of higher
(25:56):
dimension of consciousness, just creating anopen for some kind of entity to come
through that explained everything, and therefore, if a medium had been called in
to expel this entity, there wouldhave been no further hold guy's activity,
and therefore there would have been nobook. But he presented absolutely no evidence
(26:22):
that this girl supposed well eccess somevague higher dimension of consciousness whatever, that
means. And even if that weretrue, did it start this entity start
bending spoons for her? Did it'ttake telepathy test prink? You know?
In other words, trying to explainone mysterious phenomenon by another mysterious, unexplained
(26:48):
phenomenon doesn't resolve the whole issue.His hypothesis may be right, but it
may or may not be right,but he doesn't present any evidence to back
it up. I'd see no reasonwhy she stepped his explanation rather than the
explanations of the teams of specialists whostudied her intensively under laboratory conditions for forty
(27:11):
months. Right. You know,there's a real division in the powers normal
research community regarding this, and thisstill is you know. Yeah, one
of the things for me that pointsyou know, away from something like that
is the actual physical evidence that theysaw because when this started, right in
doing this, she had weird flulike symptoms and her temperture would spy,
(27:33):
yes, and things with static andelectricity in surrounding her, but she would
also get physically ill sometimes when thestuff happened. Oh yes, she was
injured many times by flying objects,you know, shattered glass, and well,
(27:55):
they teams of specialists who investigated hercase determined that her physical organism have
certain anomalies, you know, thefunctioning of her brain hemispheres. There's certain
patterns of energy in her fingertips andtoes that may have indicated some sort of
unusual hormonal operations that could have affectedthe gravity around her. But again that
(28:26):
explanation falls short in some ways.You know, teenagers go through puberty,
many of them have emotional upheavals.Why did this girl in particular create this
tremendous psychokinetic activity, you know,why not other teenage I mean, if
(28:47):
it were just a matter of hormonalimbalance and emotional upset interacting in such a
way to create these violent kinetic effects, why aren't other teenagers, universally,
right, more common occurrent I experiencingthe same problem. You know. You
know, that's what makes the caseso fascinating because all these hypotheses, but
(29:11):
none of them fully explains. Youknow, we're in the same position now,
forty years later that we were thatthe Polish scientists were, you know
in the nineteen eighty yeah, yeah, and the fact that they had so
many disciplines come in, you know, to study her as well from different
points of view and different even I'msure all these people had, you know,
(29:33):
different religious beliefs and things as well, and so you know, right
to have it from all these differentpoints of view, and all these people
saying, oh, she's really doingthis, you know, and not discaratying
her or discounting her and finding itfascinating. Well, you know, to
summarize the matter is as possible,I believe that sweet possibilities. Either the
(30:00):
girl and her family and all ofher associates or classmates or teachers, their
eyewitnesses, all of you know,the police officials, the town, the
municipal bodies. Either they were engagedin some sort of gigantic collusion, you
know, to perpetuate a hoax,or the girl in some way was able
(30:21):
to induce a mass hypnosis, createa mass delusion around her for seven years
and trick all these trained observers,nurses, physicians, you know, physicists,
psychologists, She was able to hoodwinkthem in some way. And the
question is, if that's true,how in the world was it, you
(30:45):
know, an ordinary thirteen, fourteen, fifteen year old girl able to do
this over a period of seven years. Third possibility, these events were actually
happening. These observers were not inthe state of delusion. They were not
perpetrating the hooks. I consider thethird possibility to be the most likely one,
(31:06):
right, It's the most plausible explanationthat I can think of. Yeah,
and a lot of people, likeyou know, you talk about bending
spoons, and people think about yourat geller and even some magicians being able
to do that. But some ofthe things she was doing with these big
giant cables and twisting down that youcouldn't do it. I saw them,
and I tried to unbend some ofthem. Yeah. When I visit her
(31:26):
family twice in nineteen eighty nine,nineteen ninety, there were all these objects
laid out on the cocktail table inthe living room, and there were these
massive cables. They were bent likepretzels, the strongest, you know.
I I tried unbending them, youknow, I mean it was hopeless.
(31:48):
Yeah. And there was also aI say this like a craziness that happened
in a hospital room. Oh,yes, that was the most spectacular eventable
she well doctor again. Goadula isa surgeon who took charge of the research
when he washed his abilities. Hebrought her to a sanitarium for the study
(32:15):
and you know, some rest forher so she could get away from the
you know counts people harassing her.And she wanted to show up well,
being a teenage girl, she wantedto show off her abilities, you know,
that convinced people that she wasn't perpetratinghoops. So in her rooms,
(32:38):
over period of something like twenty seconds, she demolished a sink, you know,
twisted it out of the wall andthe room was totally demolished for this
girl. How any tools accomplish theseyou know feats, So that most spectacular
(33:04):
occurrence seven years that she was studied. Yeah, and doctor Godoula he kind
of protected her in a way,yes, Yes, very compassionate man who
had the courage to speak out despitethe disapproval of the authorities and the medical
and scientific establishment. He thought thiscase was genuine and deserved a serious study.
(33:34):
He tried to shelter the girls asmuch as power. Yes, And
so you said they studied her forforty months, and like we were saying,
it's kind of their all on theirown don and that's the risk of
their own reputations and things like that. All these different doctors and scientists did
any of them. I know someof them came to conclusions, but I
(33:55):
guess less, probably more than baffledthan anything, and probably frustrated that they
couldn't forget what was going on.And the forty the reason the forty months
because they kind of it kind offizzled out and they ran out of funding
and money and lack of financing.That's basically it. They did not have
the sophisticated equipment for financing to continuethis. Yeah, depthor it leads me
(34:19):
a question too. If you tookthis case and put it now something like
this happening, you know, Iwonder if we could find out more because
you know, the jumping technology andtesting and things like that. I wonder
if we could figure it out more, especially with like our physical symptoms.
We know a lot more about thebody in medicine of course in the past,
(34:40):
you know, thirty some years.And yeah, that was that's one
question that would because we haven't reallyhad a case. Well, you know,
that's an excellent question. I shouldemphasize that I'm only a translator.
My task was to bring this caseto contention, and I think I succeeded
too large extent. But I'm nota scientist by profession, nor am I
(35:06):
a professional paranormal researcher. I havea strong interest in certain subjects, so
regretfully I can't answer your question.My great grand is that forty years ago,
when I first started translating the book, I wasn't able to attract attention.
I didn't have the connections to bringmy task to fruition at the time.
(35:32):
But well, in nineteen eighty threeI found the publisher who's willing to
give me a chance and Anomalous Booksin Virginia. Patrick Letchi is the owner,
and he was facious enough to readthe manuscript and he thought it's worthy
(35:52):
of publication. My efforts back inteen eighties in nineteen nineties not successful.
Your question is certainly justified, andI wish I could answer it. I
don't know what supisticated techniques we havenow, but we're available to scientists forty
(36:13):
years ago. It's a good question. Yeah, yeah, and now we
have also we have like you know, parapsychology is the actual doctor degree and
some yeah, some universities do offeradvanced you know degrees at the truth.
A couple in England, I thinka University of Nottingham if I'm not mistaken,
and there's some division in the Universityof London. Yeah, I just
(36:36):
actually actually had doctor Callum Cooper,who is a parapsychologist and he teaches that
in Nottingham. I came across hisname. I think I even sent him
an article about the case months monthsago, but I never heard back from
them. Yeah, it's one ofthose things, like you know, with
everything in the paranormal. I've beendoing this for for over twenty years,
(36:57):
and with everything in the paranormal,when you think you have a question answered
with any of this phenomena, there'sa thousand more questions, and so it's
the same with this case. Ijust find it. I find it interesting
because back in the eighties, youknow, you had this case, and
I think in the late seventies youhad to infield poltergeist and there have been
other poltergeist cases, but here inlike you know, in the past twenty
(37:20):
years, there's not really been anythat stand out like these cases do,
or nobody's discovered them to go inand study them. Well, let me
let me interject something. I thinkit's quite possible that not only poltergeist activity,
but many other paranormal phenomena are occurringconstantly throughout the world, but because
(37:43):
of language barriers and lack of interestin the part of the orthodox scientific or
medical community, we never hear aboutthat. Remember it took me thirty four
years to get this book published,you know, and I'm a native English
speak How difficult would it be forsomeone, let's say in Burma or I
(38:05):
don't know, Mozambique, Korea,who may be experienced even more remarkable events
to bring this to public attention,you know, To translate a book in
the hope of attracting public attention isvery It's an arduous task. Take my
own experience as a key, youknow, as a as a graphic sample.
(38:28):
So what you just said may beright. But on the other hand,
because of the barriers that exist,public awareness just may not be exposed
to this knowledge. It's a tremendousshame, you know, all this potential
knowledge just going down to drain.It makes me very It's very sad.
(38:52):
Yeah, yeah, I'm talking aboutthis on the show a lot too.
I think in general, people likethings in boxes because I think that he'll
some psychologically to understand. I thinkthey understand the world and so then when
you get into this type of stuffthat there's no understanding, even you know,
scientists who have studied this stuff don'tunderstand it and can't explain it.
I think it scares people as well. So I think that's another barrier as
(39:15):
well to these types of things andstudying them more in science, getting more
into the paranormal. Well, tome, I'll tell you from my personal
observation, inertia is the greatest forcein human behavior. Inertia and denials reality,
you know, when it's painful ordistressing or and it's a tremendous barrier
(39:38):
to knowledge in general. Yeah,I've come across that I live in I
grew up, and I've looked atmy whole life outside of Nashville, kind
of in the Bible Belt. Youknow, I've been told my whole life
dealing with the paranormal because I've doneit for so long that it's all demons,
that's what you know, the uberreligious people believe, and so you
know, they don't want a partof it because I think it's all demonic,
(39:59):
and they're that through their leans ofreligion, not that all of this
could be just a natural part ofour world. That we just don't don't
see and don't experience, you know, And I think it's part of us
because it scares them too, likewe're talking about and they're in denial of
it in a way as well.Well. I completely agree with you.
I'm an agnostic, which means thatI'm flexible and open minded in regard to
(40:25):
things that I can't explain personally.My position is that I have five senses
which are limited scope, and Ican't deny that what happens outside the limit
five senses may actually exist. Wejust don't perceive them because of are ingrained
(40:47):
limitations denial reality. But you know, tipicate you've heard of education. Of
course, this uneducated guy in Kentucky, who ever at sixth grade, and
yet he went into these unusual tranceswhere he could speak ancient languages and he
had never studied. What is therational explanation for that? There is not,
(41:13):
you know, give you deny itout of fear and ignorance. Where
you have to realize that there arecertain aspects of reality that we still don't
understand. He's not the only suchcase, believe he han't heard quite a
few others, to my knowledge oflanguages and privileged to be able to read
accounts about people in other countries whohave similar abilities, but they're not known
(41:37):
in the Western world because language barriers. They actually have a museum in Hawkinsville,
Kentucky, where he lived, andin a museum out of his home,
and it's about an hour and ahalf for me. Oh, I
didn't know that. Of course,I'm familiar with Atlantic University where they keep
full as font you know, hisreadings are visited there once, but I
(41:58):
didn't know they made a museum outof a home. Yeah, yeah,
but yeah, this entire paranorm worldis pretty interesting. That's why I love
talking to people like you and gettingyou know, these different cases from all
around the world to show that,you know, because you know, we
watched like the in America, wewatched the ghost shows, and most of
the time they're just going to placesin the United States and you're not really
(42:21):
seeing the phenomenon around the world.And so that's one of the things I
love about doing the podcast here isI can go, you know, connect
with somebody through the internet, youknow, halfway around the world and talk
to them about what's going on intheir part of the world and see how
similar the paranormal is across the worldand the beliefs and the things that are
going on, but also some extraordinarycases like this one from Poland. You
(42:42):
know. Yes, language barriers area very powerful impediment. Yeah, I'm
glad that I was able to contributea little bit of insights into this phenomenon
translation, but it was a veryhardress task. It took a year out
(43:04):
of my life. Yeah, andnot everybody wants to do that. Yeah.
So now the only question is,let's go back to what you're talking
about in the very beginning, thatyou actually went and got to meet her
and meet her family, you watchher family and her and actually see some
of this stuff firsthand. Yes,I went there first, as I mentioned
before the fall of nineteen eighty nine, and the family lived in a very
(43:30):
shabby apartment block, you know,Soviet type architecture, concrete stole and their
apartners battered. Yeah, in thedense furniture. And the girl struck me
as just ordinary teenage girl and nothingdemonic about her. She had very piercing
(43:53):
eyes. That was a remarkable featureabout her. Otherwise say she different in
any way, you know, ordinarykids of her age. She showed me
various objects and she had then overthe years, including these massive cables.
(44:13):
And I spoke to a couple offriends who eyewitnesses, and it turns out
that Duasha and I got along quitewell because I could speak polition. She
was kind enough to bend a spoonfor me right before my eyes, and
I watched her. It took hera couple of minutes to bend this stainless
(44:34):
steel spoon and started to droop justlike a wilting flower. And she did
it the second time in the summerof nineteen ninety when I visited her family
again along with the co authors.She'd been a second spoon for me,
and I've kept both of them assouvenirs. That's the only paranormal experience in
(44:57):
my life. Yeah, that's prettypretty good one I have. Though unfortunately
I didn't see any flying objects,which is just as well, because I
I want it might have broken myeads. It was not a fun thing,
ye believe me. Yeah. Theother thing that I found fascinating the
book is that these things not onlyhappened at home and like in the clinical
(45:20):
setting when they were studying her,but also happened at school and her teachers.
Okay, her teachers were amazingly understandingand tried to help her with this.
Yes, she was lucky in thatregard. They did try to shelter
her and persuade the other students thatYewasha's abilities, while unusual, were not
(45:42):
demonic. Yeah, you know,we're not something to be feared. They
were just unexplained. Yeah, andher classmates gradually came to accept her,
and we're even excited than when youknow, scientists came to visit her and
to start the test in the school. Very proud of her. So this
kind of the case kind of cutsoff in nineteen ninety as far as the
(46:05):
book goes, Well, the bookactually stops around nineteen. The book was
written in nineteen eighty nine, andwhen I visited her in nineteen eighty nine,
nineteen ninety, the events, accordingto eyewitnesses still happened. Yeah,
but sometime after I left, thephenomenon for no understood reason, just stopped.
(46:27):
Yeah, and you know there's noexplanation for that. I really started
unexpectedly and ended justice unexpectedly. Yeah. Seven years. Wow. Of course,
this question is something I know everybody'sgoing to know. Do you know
what happened to Yuasha. Yes,well, a few details. She went
(46:47):
to nursing school, graduated, gota job in a local hospital, she
got married and had two kids.For some time she kept in contact with
doctor, who, as we mentioned, was head of research, but then
all trace sort of vanished. Herparents passed away. I don't know when.
(47:10):
My suspicion is that she might havegone abroad because back in the nineteen
nineties and Poland was a very economicallydepressive place and lots of specialists in nursing's
physicians. I I just emigrated tofind better living, especially if they had
(47:30):
a family. Yeah, So that'smy suspicion. But I really have either
I or the author's the book,or anyone else knows her current whereabouts.
And you know, after all theattention that she got for so long,
I mean, you know, Icould only imagine wanting to just state into
(47:52):
obscurity, you know, especially withher. You know, she has two
kids, and obviously she probably doesn'twant them to be the subject of sensationalist
intruders. Yeah, the way shewas, so I can understand, Brian,
Yeah, she would want to remainyou know, anonymous. Yeah,
(48:13):
Yeah, and I think it'd beinteresting for her to go back and explain
to her kids, this book isabout me, you know what I'm saying,
once they got old enough and thishappened to me, and her kids,
you know, learning about that.Well, who knows, maybe maybe
one day the book will come toher attention and she'll emerge from the shadows
and know, yeah, get herlife story. But you know, so
(48:35):
far not a pet. Yeah,well you can think, I mean,
growing up under the microscope of themedia and you know, scientists poking and
prodding you for so long. Yeah, I would just be understandable to say,
you know, I just want tobe a normal person, a normal
family. You know. She wouldbe fifty three years old, yeah,
(48:58):
actually fifty four, fifty four,yeah, thirteen to fifty four. Yeah.
Yeah. It's a fascinating case.And I'm glad that you translated it
and finally got it out out sopeople could talk about it. And I've
really yeah, and I really enjoyedthe book and reading it, and I've
enjoyed our conversation today. I wantto thank you so much for coming on
(49:21):
and talking about it. It's beena great pleasure. And the book is
available to purchase on Amazon and Kindle, and I would tell everybody to go
out and buy the book and readabout this amazing case. It's called The
Elusive Force, translated by Joel Stern. It's a wonderful book and a fascinating
case. And thank you for therecommendation. Again, I respondor to be
(49:45):
your guest. Yeah, I thinkthat's all I want people to go.
I don't want to give too muchaway, you know, I kind of
want to hit some of the highlights. I want people to go out and
read the book because there's so muchmore in the book about the them,
you know, scientifically doing studies withher and some of the telepathic things,
and and a lot more in depthabout the things that she could do and
(50:06):
the things that she did. Andwe just kind of hit the highlights and
you know, the cliff notes ofthe story. But yeah, I want
people to go out and read thebook and check it out, to get
in depth into the case because it'svery fascinating and there's so much that we
left out here today. Well,as I said, the case continued over
a period of seven years, andthere was a lot involved, a lot
(50:28):
of people, Yeah, devoted seriouseffort and time and at least to me,
they proved the existence. Yeah,a certain type of reality that we're
not no normally aware of, butnonetheless exist. We can deny it,
we can ignore it, we canridicule it, but that doesn't Yeah,
(50:51):
and I think this case should beright up there in the paranormal with then
sort of Poltergeist and some of theothers that are well known, just because
this is to me, one ofthe most in depth studied cases of poltergeis
and psychokinesis that I've ever come across. But thank you so much Joel for
coming on the show today. Ireally enjoyed the conversation, really enjoyed the
book. And everybody go out andpick up a copy of The Elusive Force
(51:14):
by Joel Stern, translated by JoelStern, and send me a messager or
send an email to Joel letting usknow what you think, and also leave
a review on Amazon. It helpsget the books out there for more people
to read them. Thank you again, and I look forward to hearing from
your listeners. Yeah, it wasa pleasure. Take care all right,
(51:34):
everybody, y'all stay safe out there. We'll see you next time. Thank
you for listening to The Unseen ParanormalJoin me next Wednesday with a brand new
guest, and please rate, review, share, subscribe on Apple, Spotify,
or wherever you're listening right now.This helps more people discover the show.
You can connect with me over onFacebook, Instagram, Twitter, or
(51:55):
join us in the Unseen Paranormal Loungegroup on Facebook. Next time, remember
some of the scariest things burn seedweb co Judy that I can't bear your
(52:22):
it's you pass, fell the sideas a Viking hide side w
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